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August 12

Flag of Zambia

1. What was the specific date in 1996 when the Zambian flag was modified?

2. The Zambian flag appears to be the only national flag where the decorations are concentrated in the fly, but does anyone know other flags so distinguished, of other types? They could be historical flags, supernational or subnational flags, flags of organisations or institutions, etc. --Theurgist (talk) 03:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking at this gallery, the flags of Sri Lanka and the de facto independent Nagorno-Karabakh Republic also have disproportionate decoration on the fly, but not to the extreme that Zambia has taken it. American Samoa also has most of the decoration on the fly, but it's not a country. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the same gallery, the Rwanda and Vatican City flags are also decorated similarly. Therefore, while still unusual, the Zambian flag is not as "unique" and "exceptional" as one would read. Further examples will also be appreciated. --Theurgist (talk) 03:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I wonder why they do it that way. Since the fly is hard to see as it waves in the wind, and gets damaged first as the flag ages, this seems like a poor choice. StuRat (talk) 04:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Flags of the World: Republic of Zambia has some information including legislation in 1994, but also says; "According to François Burgos the flag of Zambia was changed in 1996. The dark green was substituted for a more clear green, and the eagle which was slightly different from the one on the shield in the Arms, has been changed to be more like the one on the shield." So no clear answer I'm afraid. Alansplodge (talk) 10:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

If we found life on Mars?

Let's say that one of the many highly anticipated photos beamed down from Mars shows evidence of life. Not little green men waving at the camera, but something more subtle: A tuft of "mold" or sprigs of "grass" growing on the landscape...or a "bug" crawling across the camera lens. Would these be made public? If not, what is the process? Would the President or Pentagon be informed first, and, if so, why? Basically is there a protocol for this, mission specific to the Curiosity Lander (as opposed to the widely known first contact protocol employed by SETI regarding extraterrestrial radio signals)? Ditch ∝ 03:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

A bunch of people at JPL are watching everything that comes in, and there are reporters wandering around, so it wouldn't be possible to keep anything like that secret -- nor would NASA want to. As soon as they were sure the observations are valid, they would issue a press release. If nothing else, a discovery like that would guarantee them a major increase in funding. Looie496 (talk) 03:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I can't see a tuft of grass or a bug causing panic, which would be the only justification for keeping it secret. A bunch of Martians firing at and then destroying the probe, on the other hand, might cause panic. StuRat (talk) 04:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

This was addressed in the MSL Sol 3 update conference. — Kieff | Talk 04:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Addressed, yes. Answered, no. You'd have to be a "space" lawyer to interpret the statement in that video as yay or nay. Viriditas (talk) 10:01, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The answer was pretty clear. He said the current policy is to release everything straight away, but that they would take their time before offering their interpretation of anything like that. He also made clear that if something like that did happen it is possible the policy would change. --Tango (talk) 10:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

There was no answer to the question "do you have a process that you can release or put on the web that will explain how NASA or JPL will handle that information", which was the same question asked by the OP up above. The reason there was no answer is because the question was never addressed. Yes, their policy is to release everything right away, and yes they will take their time with it if necessary. But there has been no answer to the question about post-detection protocols, probably because "very little such effort has been used to identify the consequences of discovering single-celled life forms elsewhere in our own solar system. Confirmation of such fossilized or living organisms on a nearby planet or moon could still have acute effects on individuals’ world-views and raise many ethical and practical issues." Viriditas (talk) 11:16, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is seriously expecting to see grass or bugs. What they might find is single-celled life or, more likely, signs that there has been single-celled life there millions of years ago. That isn't going to show up in photos; that's going to come from the other scientific instruments. I don't know their specific policies on the discovery of life, but you can be certain the scientists would be very resistant to the biggest discovery of their careers being kept secret. SETI has a protocol for what to do in the event of discovering an radio signal from an extraterrestrial intelligence - you can read a bit about it in this paper. While it does involve informing the authorities, the only intended delay before taking it to the mass media is to get confirmation from other scientists. --Tango (talk) 10:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Allan Hills 84001 was discovered in 1984. They are still arguing about it. Viriditas (talk) 11:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I see no reason to suspect that such information would be withheld. As for the process, it would likely have to filter up through many different chains of command. I suspect the President would be informed (not the Pentagon), but mostly so he wouldn't be caught flat footed when the announcement came. Presidents don't like to be surprised. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Given that everyone from career rocket scientists to college undergraduates work on the rover and its data, I highly doubt such information could even be temporarily withheld. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:32, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking for a book

Few days ago, I noticed a book named "Make your own business : Strive and Thrive" or something like that, in a book store. I forgot its full name. I want to read its review on the net before planning to purchase this book. It's a best seller book out there that has quite impressive review from renown business personality. I can't remember the author's name. Can anyone help me to find its link in the net (especially in amazon.com). Thanks in advance--180.234.53.242 (talk) 11:13, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Toxic Success: How to Stop Striving and Start Thriving by Paul Pearsall? Alansplodge (talk) 14:26, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• I saw this book in amazon.com before. But that book is related to business (most probably marketing), not psychology or self-help!--180.234.85.223 (talk) 16:35, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

But you did mention "business" in your question. Alansplodge (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

A web search for strive thrive business book finds "Strive to thrive: The 7 keys to business success". If that sounds right search for it. 94.101.10.162 (talk) 17:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Check it out in your local library. It is free, and if you have an e-reader you can probably download it to your device for 21 days. Viriditas (talk) 04:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Easiest route from Helsinki to northern Sweden

If RG Line does cease operations, and there is no ferry link from Vaasa, Finland to Umeå, Sweden, any more, what would be the easiest way to get by car from Helsinki to northern Sweden (say, Tärnaby in particular for example), including as little actual driving the car yourself as possible? JIP | Talk 18:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The easiest way to travel by car would clearly be to go by road, via Oulu and Lulea. If you want to go by car but not to drive yourself, I guess the answer would be to get someone else to drive. Warofdreams talk 21:57, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

A quick scoot up and down the Gulf of Bothnia in Google Maps, suggests you are out of luck. From Vaasa to Umeå, there is the northern road route via Tornio (an 800 km drive), or getting the ferry from Turku to Kapellskär (north of Stockholm). The last is a 1000 km drive and a lengthy ferry journey via the Aland Islands. Astronaut (talk) 06:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

There are car-transport trains in Finland, but apparently not in Sweden. So maybe it would be a better option to take the train to Rovaniemi and drive to Tornio, and thereafter to Sweden, from there? JIP | Talk 19:02, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

How do we know the CIA didn't smuggle in a brand-new earthquakebomb developed at Area 51?

How do we know the CIA didn't smuggle in a brand-new earthquakebomb developed at Area 51? There has been an "earthquake" in Iran recently, and we're seething at each other over their nuclear ambitions.

Could it be possible that an earthquake-inducing bomb was developed at Area 51, then brought in by Iranian-looking CIA agents (who also speak the local language very well, with flawless accents), taken underground, to detonate?

Since the "earthquake" happened in a fairly inconsequential area, I would assume that this was a test-bomb, and that the real deal will be bigger, and placed under an area near Iran's controversial nuclear facilities. In this method, they would possibly destroy said facilities and cripple their nuclear program for the last time.

The quakes in 1990 and 2003 may have been induced by secret bombs too, possibly. We've not had good relations with them since the '79 revolution.

Is there an article anywhere about such theoretical bombs that may or may not exist? I wonder how they'd work. Thanks. --70.179.170.114 (talk) 18:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

According to the Earthquake bomb article, they're something you have to drop, which they'd definitely call us out on. Also, Iran is in a part of the Eurasian tectonic plate right between the Arabian plane and the Indian plate. We have no evidence that the government has developed some sort of mini earthquake bomb, we have no evidence that they are developing that sort of thing at Area 51, and we have no evidence that the CIA would leave bombs over at Area 51. While the US was rather disappointed that Sharif took over, pragmatically it's not enough to go to war over. There is no pragmatic motive, and so even less evidence that the US Gov't was involved.

Occam's razor should lead us to the conclusion that it's just an earthquake, and nothing more. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Plus, if the CIA was that good, it wouldn't have taken 10 years to capture Bin Laden. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:06, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Unless the CIA was protecting bin Laden, which is why he was so hard to catch... ;) --Jayron32 19:15, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

What if Bin Laden was in the CIA? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 19:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

What if he ran the CIA. --Jayron32 19:19, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

We don't know. However, we have as ask ourselves, which is more likely? A massive conspiracy, and a rather ill-thought out one at that (why would you do your test detonation in an inconsequential part of an enemy country, rather than just in the Nevada desert or the middle of the ocean or somewhere else much easier and safer?), or a natural earthquake in a region we already know is susceptible to earthquakes? --Tango (talk) 21:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

What if the CIA is a ruse made up by the Freemasons, Bin Laden was Bush's vice president in hiding, and Cheney was just a decoy? My contacts at the Illuminati assure me that's not the case, though. Fnord, everybody. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:20, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh, quit picking on the poor IP OP. It's not his fault. He's from Kansas. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

This is simply an arbitrary assertion. It is the equivalent of saying, "You migh be a murderer, no one knows all your moves, so prove you aren't." The appropriate response is not to attempt to prove a negative. but to say that until you provide some positive evidence, I will treat your statement as flatus vocis, a verbal fart. μηδείς (talk) 20:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Earthquakes present characteristic seismic signals. Simulating this with high explosives (or something else) is not likely to be successful. You can tell the difference, for example, between an underground nuclear detonation, and underground HE detonation, and an earthquake quite easily if you look at the waveforms. There are ample public seismic stations in the Middle East (the Iranians have their own, of course). You could, I guess, hypothesize that this magical earthquake bomb is somehow totally indistinguishable from actual earthquakes. But you might as well claim that Jesus came down and caused the earthquake — there is as much evidence and it is equally unfalsifiable.

As for the region of Iran, I would point out that there is pretty much at least one detectable earthquake a day in the area. It's highly seismically active, on par with Japan and California. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:41, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Which would imply that if IP 70 is aware of evidence to the contrary he should post it. μηδείς (talk) 22:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I guess. This is not a debating society; who cares if the OP is wrong or not? They asked a question, it's possible to give a reasonably scientific explanation as to why that's unlikely without demanding evidence to the contrary and then proclaiming the OP to be "verbally farting." I think that's a little unnecessary. The stakes are low here; there no reason to bite the questioners, even if the questions are (in your eyes) silly. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:48, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

BTW, the problem is not that what he has asked is wrong. It is that his supposition doesn't even rise to the level of being wrong. It is arbitrary. The point is that one doesn't waste time on disproving arbitrary requests for proofs of negatives. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

If you find it a waste of time, please, feel free to do something else with it, rather than be nasty to people asking questions that aren't up to your standards, or other people who are bothering to try and communicate some facts to them and others. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:26, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry, 98, was that meant as a response to the series of letters the IP has typed? It doesn't seem like one. No one is stopping you. μηδείς (talk) 02:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Huh? --Mr.98 (talk) 03:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

That arbitrary requests for proof of negatives do not merit epistemic effort is a storied philosophical position, it dates back to Aristotle at least. That such claims are flatus vocis is one of the underlying principles of science and all rational thought. Had I called the OP an effing ayhole, rather than answer sincerely that one doesn't attempt to answer requests for negative proofs, I would have been being nasty. I didn't, and I wasn't. As for your bizarre concern with my supposed nastitude, go stick it in your fnord. μηδείς (talk) 03:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

In the 1978 Superman film, Lex Luthor triggered an earthquake in southern California by bombing the San Andreas fault. So it's obviously possible. (In the movies, anyway.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:33, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

That was a plain ol' nucular bomb, and movies are movies, and Tabriz is Eureka, not LA. μηδείς (talk) 05:46, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Tabriz is a vaccuum cleaner? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:28, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

What company makes this journal?

I have a journal whose cover simply says "Journal" with a characteristic font, which journal I have seen in other places as well. It looks like a unique enough style that it would be just one company that makes it, but there is no UPC, ISBN, or identifying information on any of the inner pages.

Who makes this? Peter Michner (talk) 20:58, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

What's in it? It doesn't look very distinctive to me. It just looks like that kind of blank books you can buy in any stationers to use as your personal journal/diary. --Tango (talk) 21:08, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Nothing but pages with lines. Nothing at all but that. And after searching many many result pages on Amazon, I cannot find a journal like it. Peter Michner (talk) 21:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Is this of any use? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

That looks like the one, alright. If only they mentioned where they got it. Peter Michner (talk) 21:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

See this site. The company MeadWestvaco makes similar products. Viriditas (talk) 22:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Interesting the seemingly Mormon connection. Some guys at the lab use journals just like these for lab notes, and I found that I had this one (but no lab notes in mine). Peter Michner (talk) 22:25, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

AT-A-GLANCE makes similar products. Bus stop (talk) 22:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

It's official LDS merchandise: http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product3_715839595_10557_21012_-1__195627 Staecker (talk) 23:10, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Oops- Viriditas already gave the link. Staecker (talk) 23:11, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Assuming that is the answer, is it meant to imply that Mormons keep a special type of journal? μηδείς (talk) 03:36, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, in fact they do. According to Mormonism and history, "Mormon youths and their sisters are exhorted to keep journals as part of their religious commitment. Missionaries are reminded by their superiors that the journals represent a part of their sacred duties." There's at least one website that claims this is the reason there are a higher number of LDS bloggers online than any other religion, but this is probably anecdotal. Viriditas (talk) 04:28, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps proportionally, but "than" seems incredible. μηδείς (talk) 05:36, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Note, I would be very interested if this product is made by MeadWestvaco, as it appears identical to other products they produce. Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any journals at their website; just packing materials. Peter Michner (talk) 10:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The AT-A-GLANCE "diary" may be comparable. Bus stop (talk) 13:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Those are pretty nice, but I can't figure out why the Standard Diaries are so expensive. That link goes to a $43 one, and I can't even see the big difference between that one and another $109 one at that site. Peter Michner (talk) 13:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

If I saw such a book in an Australian shop, I would simply assume it was made in China. Almost everything else in our shops is. It would take quite quite explicit evidence to the contrary to convince me otherwise. The OP doesn't tell us where he or she is. Most of the replies seem to assume the US. Is there a reason for such a guess? And does that make a difference to the answer? HiLo48 (talk) 17:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

So far, the one source I've seen for a journal that looks exactly like this is limited to this Salt Lake City-based church. Of course I don't doubt that they get their journals manufactured in China, I just haven't seen any other sellers that also sell those exact journals. Yes, I'm in the United States. If there are stores elsewhere that sell journals that look exactly like this, that would of course satisfy my curiosity just as well. Peter Michner (talk) 18:18, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Interesting enough, this example [1] also from the LDS (I think) has what looks like the same font and possibly same cover colour (I think the photo is just washed out) but without the outline and I think slightly less font kerning. This site not affliated with the LDS Church but selling LDS gifts also sells them [2] in both red and blue and in two different sizes although they are allegedly suitable for the same purposes. Strangely enough, they also offer 3 font options edit: for your name, but none of the font options seem to precisely match the examples shown. Americana comes close but all variants I've looked at don't have the right-side stroke for the uppercase U and the lowercase u have different serifs (or whatever you call it) at the top so it's not simply a case of large lowercase. Edit2: This site [3] also I think not afflicated with the church itself but selling LDS products and looking nearly the same as the other one in terms of description and generaly layout also sells the blue and red journals in the different sizes. Strangely enough, no sign of it on the official site unless it's something restricted to verified members only. I noticed some of the other LDS stuff seem to have a similar font [4] [5] but it looks more like the real Americana at least in the case of the bible (uppercase U has no right-side downward stroke). Nil Einne (talk) 19:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm wondering if local Deseret Industries stores might sell similar journals? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 06:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Pikes Peak ownership

Who owns Pikes Peak? - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 21:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The people of the United States. It's a National Historic Landmark. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 21:57, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

According to that article, half of the National Historic Landamarks are privately owned, so that doesn't help with the OP's question. RudolfRed (talk) 22:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

This site, from the article,[6] shows the National Park Service sign, so it appears to be managed by the federal government. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

It appears to be part of Pike National Forest. Rmhermen (talk) 03:48, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Seconded: Pike National Forest. The National Historic Landmarks program is administered by the National Park Service, but unless it was already national park land, the Park Service wouldn't own it. In this case, it's the U.S. Forest Service, an agency of the Department of Agriculture. Acroterion (talk) 20:33, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

There is a renewable (hundred year?) commercial lease for Pike's Peak Cog Railway and a few residences associated with it which aren't part of the Forest Service. 75.166.207.214 (talk) 09:35, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Deus ex Human rev.

Whom did David Sarif represent in Deus Ex: Human Revolution from a real world standpoint? He seems like a corrupt being, but who? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.142.178.36 (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Have you read this? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 21:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

can you post the reading material here it is blocked for me so i cant read whats on the site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.142.178.36 (talk) 22:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

That would likely be a copyright violation. "Blocked for you"? You're not in China, you're in Peoria. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

It's licensed CC-BY-SA, so it's not a copyright violation. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Just guessing you dont understand the word blocked just give me the answer from the website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.142.178.36 (talk) 23:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The page doesn't say anything about who he might resemble; I don't know why that link was given as an answer to this question. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

It's an article about the subject as requested. Why wouldn't it be given as a link to answer the question? 69.62.243.48 (talk) 07:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Deus Ex: Human Revolution isn't a Roman à clef - its characters aren't thinly disguised representations of anyone. Sarif's chief role in the plot seems to be to trick those of us of a suspicious bent (honed to a razor in Deus Ex) that's he's really EvilAllAlong although he mostly isn't. He's largely a techno-utopian and maybe slightly a transhumanist (so you could compare him to Ray Kurzweil or Bill Gates) but really his character is so thinly drawn that he could be compared to almost anyone. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 00:11, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

August 13

Triace brand bicycles?

Hi everyone. Can anyone point me in the direction of some ENG language reviews of Triace brand bicycles? They are huge here in China with products in every market segment, but the only ENG references I can find are to models being sold through Wal-mart, which is not exactly a confidence builder! Ideally something would compare/contrast them with Merida or Giant or some other such well-known brand... Thanks. The Masked Booby (talk) 00:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

A quick google search revealed this: http://runreview.blogspot.no/2011/06/triace-s503-bike-review.html DI (talk) 09:42, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Sheldon Brown and others discuss the development cycle of bicycle production and industry shift. It may be that Chinese manufacturers are at a point where they are starting up the quality ramp, but that price has not followed. There's something of a video review here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8pwfS3jTvU . Fifelfoo (talk) 02:17, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Turning wind pressure into weight

We've all seen large windturbines on hill tops. I would like to know if the large blade (propeller)was virtical how much weight would it take to rotate the turbine motor in working mode.150.101.204.218 (talk) 05:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

This is probably better asked at the Science reference desk. Those boffins know about such things. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 05:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Much as it pains me to admit, Jacky O is prolly right. But doesn't the IP mean, "Were it horizontal,...?"? μηδείς (talk) 05:42, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, correct use of the subjunctive would be along the lines of "Were there fewer unpleasant grammar pedants on the Reference Desk, it would be a more pleasant and productive part of the project." TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Well most us who like to see correct grammar and spelling can cope with "virtical" for "vertical", and might even use "if it was" informally for the pedant's "if it were", but I think Medeis was just distinguishing vertical from horizontal. Dbfirs 14:53, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Exalctly. μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Ah, well. I feel silly for failing at reading comprehension. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter where the question is asked, there is no possible way to answer it. The blades are balanced, so the answer comes down to friction, and the level of friction inside a wind turbine depends on countless things. Looie496 (talk) 15:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

You may be interested in this thread: Physics Forum: force needed to turn a windmill generator? which I didn't really understand, not being a boffin and all . You may also find some information in RenewableUK Briefing Sheets - How does wind energy work?. Alansplodge (talk) 17:14, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Given that for efficiency reasons the friction is very low, the mass required would also be very low. If the mass is placed on the outer edge it will not have to be as large as if it is placed closer to the centre due to mechanical leverage. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 22:28, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on large commercial turbines, but from my experience of much smaller wind generators, I would comment that the torque required varies depending on the orientation of the blades with respect to the generator magnets, so will vary up to a maximum at a certain position. (The geometry of large turbines is probably more sophisticated.) The weight required just to overcome friction (with the generator disconnected) will be very small, as mentioned above. Weight will be most effective when applied at the tip of a horizontal blade (to maximise torque), but the much greater weight required in generator mode will depend on the power of the generator and the configuration of the generator mechanism. (The answer to the question as asked is that no amount of weight, however great, attached to the top of a vertical blade will turn it because the line of action of the weight will pass through the centre of the rotor, thus generating zero torque. Of course, a very slight displacement from the vertical will change the unstable equilibrium.) Dbfirs 06:54, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Passing the world record but not getting gold

How common is it for an athlete at the Olympics to best the pre-Olympics world record mark but not manage to get a gold medal? In the current games, Im Dong-Hyun broke the world record in his archery event during a preliminary round and then failed to medal at the finals. In weight lifting, Tatiana Kashirina beat the pre-Olympics world records for both the snatch and combined totals in her weight class, but missed a gold when Zhou Lulu managed an even higher combined weight. How common are outcomes like this, where someone breaks the world record but still doesn't get to the gold medal in the end? Dragons flight (talk) 12:13, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone has crunched the necessary numbers, but it happens more often than you think. This year's Olympic swimming championships included both gold and silver medallists breaking the old world record. I'll have a go at finding that. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't find that one. I think I was thinking of one of the races where the old Olympic record was broken by gold and silver medallists. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

So did the men's relay in track. Rmhermen (talk) 16:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The GB Women's pursuit cycling team broke six world records in six consecutive runs in the same event (the last won them a team Gold)[7]. Alansplodge (talk) 17:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

For racing events there is a little logic issue to be careful with. If the first place getter breaks the world record, then their time is now the world record, so the second place getter cannot ever beat the world record in the same race. Tammy's statement is accurately written. Gold and Silver medallists may both have beaten the OLD world record, but not the current world record. HiLo48 (talk) 17:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that the question is based on the premise of a new world record being set in the heats of the event, but not bettered in the final; which is often a more tactical race than a record attempt. Apologies if you had already appreciated that and I misunderstood your last post. Alansplodge (talk) 17:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Please note my use of the words "in the same race". I think we're on the same wavelength here. HiLo48 (talk) 18:01, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

There was the case of the women's team sprint team from China who beat the world record in the qualification round, beat their just set record in the first round then were relegated in their final race against Germany meaning they ended up with the silver (their time before relegation was faster then Germany but slower then even the old world record) [8] [9].

Of course in most sports what you did in earlier rounds doesn't count, only what you did in the final round. While not setting a world or even olympics record Vitezslav Vesely threw a 88.34m in qualification round, nearly 4 metres clear of anyone else in either the qualification or final but failed to medal after throwing nothing better then a 83.34m in the final round. The surprised Trinidad and Tobago athlete Keshorn Walcott was the gold medalist (only the second ever olympics gold medallist for his country), as our article says "becoming the youngest-ever Olympic champion in javelin throw[4] and the second non-European to ever win the Olympic gold in men's javelin throw since Cy Young" and http://www.london2012.com/athletics/event/men-javelin-throw/phase=atm053900/index.html]).

Nil Einne (talk) 19:16, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Warren Potent equalled the world record to qualify for the Beijing games, but ended up with the bronze. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 22:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Historically, the most spectacular examples were, possibly:

• 1968 triple jump WR increased once in the heats and four times in the final, with 5 men exceeding the pre-games WR
• 1980 pentathlon WR broken three times in 1.6 seconds.

jnestorius^(talk) 17:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Not Olympics (or not any more, anyway), but here's a possible oddity. Let's suppose Abel is on base and Baker is at bat. As it happens, they are tied for the all-time record in runs scored. Baker knocks it out of the park. Abel scores, and at that moment he holds the record. As soon as Baker rounds the bases and touches the plate, they're tied again. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:48, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Motor oil on lawn

Hello--

I spilled about a quart of motor oil on my lawn, is there a way I can remove the oil without damaging the grass? Albacore (talk) 18:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Putting cat litter on it will help soak up some of it. That's generally what people put on their garage floors to clean up oil drippings there. Use the old fashioned clay stuff. Dismas|^(talk) 20:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I seriously doubt it if it already soaked in (I would assume it has since you took the time to get online and ask the question). Shadowjams (talk) 20:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

If you're afraid of pets licking it off the grass, you might want to blot the area with paper towels. You won't get it all, of course. StuRat (talk) 22:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Are you thinking of antifreeze? Motor oil will just make them regular. μηδείς (talk) 02:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

If it's used oil, it will have various heavy metals in it and combustion products, none of which is particularly good to consume. It could also have tiny, sharp pieces of metal in it. StuRat (talk) 03:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• You're screwed. It will kill the grass and any new grass you plant there. The only reliable solution is to dig up the grass and the oil-soaked dirt, put down new dirt, and replant. Looie496 (talk) 01:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree exactly with Looie, nothing to be done but excavate and replace. Richard Avery (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Used motor oil is also quite good at killing trees and many other things too, like all those things that live in soil (worms, slugs, etc.) That's probably why most countries have warning over the outside of oil cans telling you to take care with disposal. You will want to dig it up and put in new, clean dirt. Astronaut (talk) 11:17, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

And rather than dumping it in the trash, probably take it to a hazardous waste disposal center? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Nano sponges [10].  Card Zero  (talk) 14:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Here is the Material Safety Data Sheet for one brand of motor oil. Paper towels, could be used to blot it up when a small amount like a quart is spilled.on grass. Garages and utilities use absorbant devices with an outer fabric and an inner absorbant, which would avoid the problem of trying to collect the cat litter dumped on the oily grass. (Its easier when the spill is on concrete). It might well kill the grass anyway, and a quart should only contaminate a small area, so you might take grass cutting shears and lop off the contaminated grass near the ground, to reduce soil contamination. Edison (talk) 17:13, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Astronaut has it. You state/locality may regulate disposal. I once had to help dig up part of the Mojave desert after 50 gallons of diesel was spilled. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 17:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

There's a big difference between a quart and 50 gallons (200x). A quart will likely be absorbed by the ground and decompose, but 50 gallons may very well run off the next time it rains, and contaminate a river. StuRat (talk) 23:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

August 14

Fan speed controls

Sometimes you look closely at something familiar, and a small detail gets you to wondering. I have three electric fans, each a different model, size, design and manufacturer. On all of them, the speed controller goes OFF • HIGH • MEDIUM • LOW. Why this order? It seems more logical that the controller would gradually step up the speed.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 01:44, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I remember reading or being told that it's better for the motor to switch from off to high, but I don't know enough details to back that up. Here are some things I've found online:

Straight Dope Message Board - Why are fan controls setup that way? - post 9

Later in the thread, the same poster links to USA Today - Wonderquest - Struggling Fans

--Bavi H (talk) 02:05, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Because most people will use the high setting in normal occasions, so it saves time and wristwear? Bavi's answer seems quite likely. μηδείς (talk) 02:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

For those of us who immediately switch from off over to low, it sounds like we should instead set it on high first, then knock it to medium and low? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I have a certain room in the house that is hot due to sun exposure, and almost always run a fan when I am in it. I always turn the fan to high to get it up to speed, rather than hear it labor at low speed, but usually turn it down to low if I run it more than a minute or so. μηδείς (talk) 03:29, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if this is related, but I was told by a gas fitter to put my gas fire on the High setting immediately after switching it on, so that the flue would warm up: apparently it works better when warmer. I wonder if the "works better if warmed up" principle applies to this question too? --TammyMoet (talk) 08:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

That makes sense. This section has been a good learning experience. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:26, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

But, whatever you do, don't leave it on overnight in a closed room! AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:52, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeh, especially if it's blowing dry ice around. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:44, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that the first answer at Straight Dope is right - give it the power to get started first. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I wonder, does this apply to pretty much anything with a low-med-hi control? Like for example, a ceiling fan, or the A/C and heater fan in the car? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:23, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the setup going from off to high is pure marketing: impress the consumer. Bus stop (talk) 02:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The exhaust fan in our oven goes to high first too. Our ceiling fans go to the current setting (same thing in the car). It might depend on how much torque is required for that fan compared to the size of the motor. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 13:47, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

From memory, all fans I've ever used in both Malaysia and New Zealand actually went from off to low speeds to high speeds or had a continous dial (so you couldn't say which direction it went) or had the speed seperate from the off or had buttons for speed rather then a dial (although even then the other would normally be off to low speed to high speed). Nil Einne (talk) 03:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Drama - Villa for Sale

While reading the drama - 'Villa for Sale' written by Sacha Guitry, I didn't got the meaning of two sentences. Those sentences are -

1. Jeanne: What on earth will the lady think of us?
   
2. Jeanne: What on earth are you driving at?
   

In both sentences, the main confusing term is "What on earth". I want to know the meaning of both sentences and confusing term. Sunny Singh (DAV) (talk) 14:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

"On earth" is an expletive: see wikt:on earth. "What on earth" just means "what", but with added emphasis. Semantically, it is saying "what (including extreme possibilities that might be found in extreme places)?"

If "what are you driving at" puzzles you, that phrase driving at could be replaced with getting at, or (less commonly) digging at. The question means: what fact is the speaker trying to establish? Less literally, it means "what do you mean?"  Card Zero  (talk) 14:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

"What on earth...?" is a generic and much politer thing to say than "What in hell...?" or similar such stuff. It also has extensions, such as, "What on God's green earth...?" etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseball Bugs (talk •contribs) 23:43, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

It's also the same as saying "What the f**k", but obviously much more polite than that... gazhiley 09:44, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Interesting how people say "Shut the fuck up" and "Shut the hell up", but not "Shut the earth up". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 11:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure why "fuck" in that phrase takes the definite article, as if there was only one fuck. (It might be a partially-minced oath, to avoid mention of the devil?) It's not usual for "hell", for that matter, to take the definite article (which would produce go to the hell!), although "the" is usually put in front of "earth". Yet there's no "what the earth?" phrase. WTE?  Card Zero  (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Cursing is an extension of the threat gesture. It is more basic than language, a relict of the reptilian brain. Most stroke patients retain the ability to curse, as did my grandmother, who suffered Broca's aphasia. See Tourette's syndrome and read Oliver Sacks as well as Steven Pinker. μηδείς (talk) 21:40, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I've read lots of Oliver Sacks, and studiously avoided Steven Pinker. I've probably mentioned before now a documentary I saw once in which the surface of a patient's brain was stimulated in such a way as to produce either involuntary laughter or involuntary swear words, as if the two things were nearly the same. (This seems off-topic, although the topic was already off-topic, so I'll just STFU.)  Card Zero  (talk) 09:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't always agree with him and can see why people might find Pinker annoying, but he is always lucid. There is a quite excellent and highly entertaining talk by Pinker on the -fucking- infix and other things hosted by Google here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpetDxIEMU. μηδείς (talk) 17:25, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

UK to US electricity conversion

I'm in the US where we have 120 volt A/C. I want to get a lamp made in the UK that is designed for their 220-250 volts. There are simple adapters so I can plug the UK plug into a US socket, but won't the lamp be about half as bright as I do that? If so, a voltage converter will make it work correctly, right? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:40, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

In general, yes, you would need a device which has a transformer in it to convert from 120v to 240v AC for the lamp to work as designed. However if the lamp is a simple one that uses incandescent bulbs and has no other electronics, I wonder if it might be possible to replace or adapt the light-bulb socket to take a US-bulb (light-bulbs in th UK typically use a bayonet-style fitting and will only produce the intended light-level at 240v). Dave w74 (talk) 06:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

It depends on the type of lamp. For a constant resistance, you would expect the lamp to be about a quarter as bright (because it would draw only half the current, and light output is (very roughly) proportional to power (watts = volts x amps)). In reality, the resistance of an incandescent lamp increases with temperature, so the power will be slightly more than a quarter. The lamp will be almost useless at 120 v because it will glow only dimly, and will give out more heat than light. Many US households do have 240v available, but not on lighting circuits. Employ an electrician to provide you with a 240v lighting outlet. A "voltage converter" might solve your problem if it is designed to handle the power of the lamp (transformers are the traditional method, but Switched-mode power supply voltage converters might also work. If your lamp if of the fluorescent type, it may already contain switched-mode circuitry, and unpredictable effects often result when connecting two such circuits. For safety and economic reasons, I would advise you not to try this -- I've blown switch-mode circuitry in the past. Dbfirs 07:03, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

This is for a lava lamp so the amount of heat the bulb gives off is crucial (the amount o light is important too.) Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 16:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

In that case, a simple 1:2 transformer (rated 100w or whatever your lava lamp is rated) or a switched-mode converter with appropriate rating should be OK. How easy is it in the USA to access the 240v supply (center-earthed)? Is it legal there to wire this to a British-style power outlet (13a socket)? (UK appliances are designed for 240v which is the actual supply voltage in most areas.) I assume that your lava lamp will be "double-insulated" (look for a square inside a square symbol) so that you needn't worry about earthing. Dbfirs 07:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

We have 240 volt A/C into houses in the US, but only big appliances use it. The stove, the oven, and probably the air conditioner, but these are all hard-wired (in our house, at least). The clothes dryer also uses 240V and it has a big three- or four-pronged plug. So it is not easy to access the 240V - the only jack for it is in the laundry room. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 15:53, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I can see that it would not be worthwhile getting British-style sockets installed unless you wanted to use lots of British appliances (and it might be illegal anyway -- regulations in the UK have become much stricter over recent years -- do you still have the freedom to install your own wiring in your own house?) Dbfirs 21:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we do. Except that when a new house is being built or something else that requires a building permit (say extensive remodeling), a licensed electrician is required then (may depend on the locality). Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 13:49, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

August 15

VACCC colors

I recently found myself looking at some color charts with names I was quite unfamiliar with, such as "Obscure Weak Green" or "Dark Dull Orange" or "Violet Violet Blue" — often just identified by their three-letter initials (e.g., OWG, DDO, VVB). They were listed as being "VACCC colors", although they all corresponded to web-safe RGB or hex colors. Does anyone know what this is all about?

It apparently stands for "VisiBone Anglo-Centric Color Codes for Graphics", but I have no idea what that means. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 05:56, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

This might be a starting point. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 08:24, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Monthly Prize Draw

Tried for several days to enter for the monthly drawing on www.gems.tv/myviews and www.rockstv.com/myviews and neither are in service. This page needs to be fixed or tell me another way to enter the drawing? Please respond.

four tildes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denisedodson (talk • contribs) 12:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. You'd be better talking to people who are connected with either of the websites you've mentioned, rather than talking to the wikipedia reference desk, which has never heard of the two websites in question. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

When you sign, you need to type 4 actual tildes (that's 4 of this symbol: ~), not the words "four tildes". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 12:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Although Jack it's more funny when they don't! :D Made me giggle a little anyways! four tildes... I mean gazhiley 14:47, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Glad you found it tildelating. :-) StuRat (talk) 23:24, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Neither my mother nor I can whistle, and I have tried for years. My father can do so and has done so without effort since childhood. My nephews are accomplished whistlers since 4 or 5 y/o and were never taught or prompted. Chimps and other apes have very poor control of their mouths. This is clearly a combination of both genetic ability and effort. See origin of speech and tongue rolling for a start. μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC) was wondering where the hell that went!μηδείς (talk) 22:47, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I strongly suspect this was intended for the thread below, Medeis. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:17, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

When I see a comment obviously misplaced like that, I feel free to move it. StuRat (talk) 23:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, I came within a micron of saying "feel free to move such comments" in my prior response to Jack, but did not given the raw feelings it might aggravate in even further removed parties. I myself am not so delicate as to object. μηδείς (talk) 23:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Glad to hear it. When I previously moved and fixed the indentation on a misplaced comment of yours on the talk page, I seem to recall you getting angry. StuRat (talk) 23:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

That still stands. If I answer the wrong thread, feel free to fix it. Leave my indentations alone. μηδείς (talk) 00:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

But I think you also objected to me moving it, then. As for misindenting, that also makes it look like you are responding to somebody else. StuRat (talk) 01:25, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I labor over my indentations. Not, unfortunately, having added the example we're thinking of to my list of reasons to have you banned as a hated troll, I can't recall. We'll have to leave it moot. In any case, wrong thread is hardly open to misinterpretation. μηδείς (talk) 02:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I can't understand your 2nd sentence. As for trying to indent correctly, you don't do a very good job of it, I'm afraid. Twelve minutes after your post above, you indented from my post at the Science Desk, when you clearly weren't replying to me: [11]. StuRat (talk) 04:39, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

human tongue,

I am now 66 years of age and found when I was 7,that when I stick out my tongue and without touching it by hand can bend the edges down like an inverted U.I have never found anyone in all this years that can do that.Please comment. Piet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.145.77.9 (talk) 12:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

You mean rolling your tongue, but upside down? There is no mention of it in that article. While it is commonly believed that tongue rolling is genetic, there is no evidence of that. It seems more likely to just be a skill you can learn like any other. It wouldn't surprise me if the same is true of doing it upside down, but just that fewer people learn to do it. --Tango (talk) 12:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

how many of you are now staring at the screen while trying to bend your tongue downwards at the sides! I just found myself instantly doing trying it! gazhiley 14:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I cannot believe that tongue rolling is just something people learn. I know a family where they can all do it instantly and effortlessly, without sitting around and gradually learning how, whether children or old people, while no amount of practice has given me any ability to do it at all. Textbooks commonly state that the ability is genetically based: [12]., [13]. Sturtevant says it is polygenic and modifiable by learning.[14]. 30% are still left unable to do it. Edison (talk) 14:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Textbooks are commonly wrong... --Tango (talk) 22:04, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

So, you must have some citable evidence to show why you believe those textbook claims are without foundation. Care to share? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Did you read the article I linked to? It cites a source for the claim. --Tango (talk) 11:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 12:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Neither my mother nor I can whistle, and I have tried for years. My father can do so, if not expertly, and has done so without effort since childhood. My sistersons are accomplished whistlers of tunes since 4 or 5 y/o, and were never taught or prompted. Chimps and other apes have very poor control of their mouths. This is clearly a combination of both genetic ability and effort. See origin of speech and tongue rolling for a start. μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Just a small correction needed here, chimps and many other apes usually have far greater control over their lips than humans, they often use their lips where we would use fine motor control of finger and thumb. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.191.178.117 (talk) 08:04, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that there is considerable variability in placement of facial muscles and/or nerves. I, for example, can raise the right side of my upper lip, or both sides together, but not the left side alone. This, along with all the variability in tongue control, is in contrast with the more important muscles. For example, if I could only lift my right leg or both together, but never the left alone, I wouldn't be able to walk very well. Presumably, if my ancestors had this condition, they would have been less likely to pass it on, while not being able to lift the left side of your lip alone makes little difference to survival, so this gene is passed on freely. StuRat (talk) 23:10, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

We're in a post-Olympic and pre-US presidential election mood right now, so "I can't ..." is not supposed to be on our mental menu, Stu. I've always been able to raise both my eyebrows together, but there was a time when I would have said I could not raise either one of them independently. Then I started watching old British movies where being supercilious was the sine qua non (Dennis Price was a particular exemplar). So I trained my muscles to raise only one eyebrow at a time, and now I'm a regular entrant in the World Individual Eyebrow-Raising Championships. I like to think of old British B&W movies as "Viagra for Single Eyebrows".  :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:25, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure you've managed to raise a few eyebrows in your time. StuRat (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't know, Stu. You'd have to ask my fawning admirers. I, naturally, remain haughtily indifferent to all such things.  :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 03:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Non-refund credit transaction to a payment card account

I am trying to close a bank account in a different eurozone country from my current domicile. I have a valid debit card for the account but the balance is overdrawn by about €10. So I need to transfer €10 into the account to be able close it. I guess I will do this by SWIFT payment even though it will cost about €4 in fees, ie 40% of the balance. But if it was to a non-euro country it would be €25 for an IBAN transfer, which would really have annoyed me. So I got to thinking: is there a cheaper way? Something like this:

Merchants will credit your debit card account as a refund if you undo a purchase which was paid by that debit card: I buy a book, merchant swipes card and debits my account by €25; hours later, with buyer's remorse, I return the book in mint condition with proof of purchase, merchant swipes card and credits my account with €25. Is it possible to use the same system to do a non-refund credit? In theory for my above case, I could get a friendly merchant to fake a refund; I hand over €10 cash and my card; they put the cash in the till, swipe my card and credit the €10 to my account. One problem is that the merchant incurs a cost from the card provider for each transaction. So let's say I give him €11, he credits my account with €10 and the other €1 pays his fees to the card company; I've still saved €24 compared to the cost of an IBAN.

A serious objection to the above is that it is fraudulent and presumably illegal; that's not why merchants have EFTPOS connections to payment companies. But what about a company like Western Union? Is this a service they actually provide or potentially could? Or is there a legal requirement (e.g. for money-laundering prevention) to tie each payment card transaction to an exchange of goods and services, rather than merely moving money around? jnestorius^(talk) 14:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Contact the bank to see what your options are. (Or Western Union...) This seems like too much of a request for legal advice for this page. I will say that I think it would be silly to risk the possibility of breaking the law for such a small amount. --Onorem♠Dil 15:52, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Ask a friend that is in that country (if you have a bank account there, I assume you have some friends too) to walk into the bank with €10 and your account details and pay it in. Anyone should be able to pay money into an account. You can pay them back later. --Tango (talk) 22:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Can't you just write yourself a cheque? I've written myself a cheque to move money from one account to another several times, without issue - it's slower than SWIFT/CHIPS or IBAN, but (at least in my case) there was no fee (GBP->GBP). I've written myself a USD check and deposited it in a GBP account (for which there was a fee, but less than the SWIFT fee). I don't know about EUR->EUR, but that surely has to work. And one can post a cheque (in the good old paper mail) to one's remote bank, if one can't get to a local branch. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 22:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

In my experience eurozone banks change all sorts of fees, some just for having the account; so maybe they charge an admin fee for closing an account. It might be easier to pay in more than needed, get them to close the account and send you the closing balance by cheque. One stumbling block is that they might insist on a valid id to close the account.

When it comes to international transfers, I have found a fixed fee SEPA transfer cheaper to use than other methods. However, I transfer a lot more than €10 at a time and not all retail banks support that payment method yet. When I was looking into this a couple of years ago, I too considered Western Union but found their fee structure way too expensive. That said, today they have an offer... see this Western Union advert (it seems to be a valid offer across some eurozone countries). Astronaut (talk) 11:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Harold Halma

What does Harold Halma refer to, in this photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Harold_Halma_photograph_of_Capote.jpg ? The photographer? 117.226.210.176 (talk) 15:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Yup. A search on his name brings back stories about the photo in question. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Funny. I can't find anything about the man. The photograph's of Truman Capote. But there's no article anywhere about any Harold Halma. Why's it so famous? 117.226.210.176 (talk) 15:44, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

See Other Voices, Other Rooms (novel)#Reception and critical analysis. Presumably the photographer is not very notable other than for this one photo. jnestorius^(talk) 16:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

On eBay, you can by a 1957 Bell Telephone advertisement by Harold Halma; I also found this 1957 Ford advert, this 1960 Ansco Anscochrome Film Ad and this 1965 deBeers Diamons ad by him, so he seems to have had a long career as a commercial photographer. Alansplodge (talk) 17:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

According to Schoenberg's New World: The American Years By Sabine Feisst, Harold Halma started out as a musician; " Harold Halma served as Schoenberg's unofficial personal assistants in the early 1940s... Halma was an excellent student in Schoenberg's 1941-1942 classes... During Schoenberg's leave of absence from December 21 1942 to January 4 1943, Halma taught his 82 students in 'Form and Analysis', 'Advanced Counterpoint' and 'Composition and Special Studies'. But in the summer of 1943, he left for New York City and turned to professional photography. Having made beautiful photographs of Schoenberg, he became famous for his 1947 portrait of Truman Capote..." There's a picture of Schoenberg with Halma here. Alansplodge (talk) 17:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Problem with viewing the Computing Reference Desk at work

This has been happening consistently for several days now. When I browse the Wikipedia Reference Desks at work, the Computing desk takes minutes to load, and then loads without any CSS information, just the plain HTML. Other desks, such as the Miscellaneous and Language desks, work OK. At home, the Computing desk also works fully OK. I use Microsoft Windows 7 at work (I have to, it's the company's development platform) but Fedora 14 Linux at home. I use Mozilla Firefox at both places. It can't be a bandwidth problem - the Internet connection at work is faster than my own connection at home. What could be causing this? JIP | Talk 21:15, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

We don't fix things here at this page directly. You should try the WP Help Desk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk. μηδείς (talk) 21:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

You might try a reboot, if you haven't already. Beyond that, perhaps you need to purge the page, cookies, etc., but this can have other consequences. StuRat (talk) 00:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Paul Ryan, Royal Dano

Is US politician Paul Ryan related to actor Royal Dano? There seems to be a remarkable facial resemblance in some photos. Edison (talk) 23:10, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The comparison I've heard is Eddie Munster, though that might be a stretch. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:08, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The same occurred to me, and Mitt looks like Herman, with the current president a certain breakfast cereal 'spokesmonster'. μηδείς (talk) 01:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Count Chocula ? Maybe not, since, despite his name, he's not chocolate colored. StuRat (talk) 04:34, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

More at the long head and the ears, although not pointed, obviously. μηδείς (talk) 17:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

August 16

Name for short turns in roads

Is there a standard term for a situation in which a road experiences a specific arrangement of a pair of sharp turns? I'm talking about a situation in which road A meets road B at two different spots that are close to each other; the driver on road A must turn onto road B and immediately turn back onto the other section of road A to keep going, because the two portions of road A do not meet road B at precisely the same spot. If my explanation be unclear, look at 39°9′51.5″N 86°32′27″W — here Fairview Street experiences the situation about which I'm asking, as a driver using Fairview must turn onto Third for a few feet before turning onto the other section of Fairview. I grew up calling these turns "doglegs", but dogleg doesn't list anything like this. Nyttend (talk) 03:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The example of Fairview Avenue that you cited is exactly th kind of thing I would call a "jog". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I always called it a "jog", as in "Haggerty Road takes a jog at Plymouth Road":[15]. StuRat (talk) 03:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I live right down the road from a similar situation. When I mention it at all, I've usually called it a jag but sometimes a dogleg. In my case, it's a bit more confusing since the intersection is actually 3 roads coming together. Road A comes in from the East and from the South. Road B comes in from the West. And road C comes in from the North. So if you want to stay on road A, you have to make a 90 degree turn. Dismas|^(talk) 04:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

If I write these in a cue sheet for cycling it is

X km L Streetson Street

400m LR Streetson Street

So I think of them as left-rights or right-lefts. Fifelfoo (talk) 05:06, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

In the US we would call it a "jog". In fact, in Driver Ed. we had to traverse a street like that, and the teacher said, "OK, make the jog." Same idea as "jag", maybe. The term "dog leg" doesn't exactly fit, because it means something that turns at a larger angle, such as 135 degrees or so, as with a golf course. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:08, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Check out Jog (dislocations). Same idea. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I've always called it a "staggered junction" (in the UK) Rojomoke (talk) 06:43, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I've heard "dogleg" used of both a staggered junction and a "hairpin bend". perhaps it depends on the breed of dog? Dbfirs 07:55, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The Free Dictionary [16], using The American Heritage Dictionary, gives "To make a sharp bend or turn: The street doglegs to the left", as well as [17] "An abrupt change in direction: a jog in the road." Looking at the golf course article, it seems the situation you describe is a double dogleg.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hunting gear

Not a hunter here, but I just saw an ad for hunters that made me laugh. They were wearing expensive camo gear, so they can sneak up on their prey undetected, along with expensive bright orange vests and caps, so they wouldn't get shot as often. So, do hunters really wear this combo ? Are their prey really so blind as to not notice the bright orange bits ? (I suppose if they are colorblind, you could make something that would stand out to humans, but not the animals. However, these orange items seemed to be uniform on color, not various orange blobs in different shades.) StuRat (talk) 04:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

To answer your first question, yes, they really wear that combination. Dismas|^(talk) 04:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

And to answer the second, this Straight Dope forum thread claims that it's because A) deer are color blind and B) it's mandated by law to save lives. This link provides the laws of each US state and Canadian province. Dismas|^(talk) 04:45, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Much hunting is done by staying quietly in-place, not by moving. Orange is only required from some game in some seasons. So if I have insulated waterproof camo bibs for turkey season, duck season or archery deer season, I will still wear them with the orange coat and hat required for firearm deer season. Rmhermen (talk) 04:50, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

So you don't mind being shot during duck and turkey seasons or impaled with arrows during deer season ? StuRat (talk) 04:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Being that you're from Minnesota (right?) you really ought to know this stuff. Most ruminants are color blind (hence red cape and bullfighters being a myth), therefore orange doesn't affect them. Turkeys, on the other hand, are quite intelligent, and see color. Not to mention usually in your neck of the woods people are hunting deer with high powered rifles that can, in theory, go for miles. Whereas with turkeys they're using shotguns that are scarcely effective past 100 yards (or less). Most bowhunters and black powder hunters don't have to wear orange.

The bigger possible issue is that detergents most people wash their clothes with tend to give off light in a particular spectrum that deer can see. It's not about "color" at least how people can see it. And stu, your latest response above is really stupid. Shadowjams (talk) 06:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm from Michigan. It may well be true that turkeys and bow hunting make wearing orange more of a handicap. However, that in no way reduces the danger of accidental injuries from other hunters who can't identify you as human. So, this makes it riskier to hunt fowl or with bows, if not wearing hunter orange. I was asking if he minds taking that increased risk, and putting a funny spin on it. I guess it was over your head. StuRat (talk) 07:45, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I got the joke. Dismas|^(talk) 07:49, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Partly it is the hunting method (shooting downward from a tree stand is usual in archery deer season), partly it is the simple number and quality of hunters in the woods (firearm deer is hugely popular, brings out all sorts of hunters) Rmhermen (talk) 13:59, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Did Cat can eat or drink chocolate?

Did Cat can eat or drink chocolate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.140.183.44 (talk) 06:30, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Chocolate is very bad for cats. See picture 8 at this link. Dismas|^(talk) 06:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd necessarily place a great deal of credence on the suggestion on the website linked that cats shouldn't eat "Raw Meat and Fish". What exactly do they think a feline's natural diet consists of? But yes, chocolate definitely isn't a good idea. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

There's some truth to that though. Feral cats that live near the ocean are often emaciated due to the fact that their main source of food is fish. Basically they're not getting a good balance of nutrients and the over abundance of fish in their diet is harming them as well. The reason why I think they also mention raw meat is due to the possibility of the human caretakers can get E coli. and salmonella. I feed all my dogs and cats raw food and I've seen the "raw food is bad because of bacteria" argument a lot. In general, it's the humans that have issues fighting these things off while the dogs and cats can handle it better than humans can. Given that WebMD is a human centric site, I'm not surprised to see the same arguments. Dismas|^(talk) 00:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The presence of theobromine in chocolate makes it toxic to some animals.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:44, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Including cats. (And dogs.) The toxicity is related to the amount of raw chocolate ingested (dark chocolate is worse than milk chocolate; baker's chocolate is basically entirely toxic) and the weight of the animal. Don't feed chocolate to cats. They apparently won't seek it out often themselves (unlike dogs), but since they have such low mass it doesn't take much to make them sick or kill them. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:21, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

So a direct answer to the OP's question could be, "They can do it once." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:02, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Even someone whose English was excellent might miss the joke there, Bugs (har har, English is ambiguous about recurring vs. truly one-time events), much less someone whose English is demonstrably not and whose IP resolves to Malaysia. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:39, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

As frugivorous omnivores, humans have large livers that metabolize caffeine and theobromine and other plant chemicals (usually alkaloids, as supposedly killed Darnell in The Man Trap) quite quickly. Cats and dogs basically die of a caffeine overdose at a much lower dose than do humans since they can't remove it from their blood as quickly as we. For a cat, so small compared to us, and with such a tiny and unadapted liver, to eat dark chocolate is like having human baby smoke meth at an adult addict level. μηδείς (talk) 00:30, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Julian Assange and Ecuador

I was wondering, does Assange have any prior connections to Ecuador? Is Ecuador unusually disposed to not sending people to the US? Leaving aside all the other issues (whether or not extradition from Sweden to the US would happen, whether the US have any grounds to request it), if a person were seeking to avoid the US, Ecuador seems a... small and unusual choice. Are there any known links, was it simply the nearest Embassy when he was on the run....? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.33.230.34 (talk) 13:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

There are a couple of factors at play: 1) Latin American countries tend to take a more lenient view of the concept of "diplomatic asylum" than their European or North American counterparts; it stems from a tradition of presidents ousted by coup d'État seeking refuge in the Embassy of a neighboring country. We had a question about this when Assange first took refuge in the Embassy, if someone can dig it up from the archives. 2) Various articles (see this one for example [18]]) claim that Ecuador President Rafael Correa has taken a personal liking to Assange, following an interview last May, even though his country may not always be a model of upholding journalistic freedom. --Xuxl (talk) 13:52, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Recently Ecuador has been speaking out about US intervention in Latin America, which has a bodycount in the millions. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-06-20/world/world_assange-why-ecuador_1_julian-assange-wikileaks-state-department-world-tomorrow probably has what you're looking for. 71.215.68.200 (talk) 14:13, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

There's some relevant information in our article on Julian Assange, too - back in 2010, when Assange had spoken about possibly seeking asylum in Switzerland, "Kintto Lucas, the Deputy Foreign Minister of Ecuador, spoke about giving Assange residency with "no conditions"." Back then, Correa was very dubious about the idea, but I guess that is what led to the interest and the interview last May. Warofdreams talk 15:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Common name for Central European Time and Central European Summer Time

The article for Central European Time says that CET means UTC+1. This implies that "CET" cannot be used as a single name for UTC+1/UTC+2, whichever happens to be current in central Europe at a particular time of year. How do you refer to the time in central Europe in a way that's neutral with regard to whether it's summer or winter?

For example, in North America you frequently see "ET" when the distinction between EST and EDT either is irrelevant or can't be made because different times of year are being referred to simultaneously. What I want is the equivalent of "ET" for the CET time zone. I understand that this kind of thing potentially carries some ambiguity because some places may not move to daylight time at the same time (or at all), but it generally works.

This question arose because I've encountered a time given as "CET" even though it's presently summer, so I think the person (who is writing from Spain) probably really meant CEST, but it bothers me somewhat that I have to make this assumption. 96.46.200.95 (talk) 18:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

August 17

How do i properly shave pubes?

How do i properly shave my pubes? --174.92.216.105 (talk) 01:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)