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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cailil (talk | contribs) at 12:48, 27 June 2013 (→‎Senkaku Islands: closed). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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    Senkaku Islands

    User:Oda Mari and User:Lvhis are topic-banned from the subject of Senkaku Islands, widely construed, for a period of 3 months. User:Shrigley is formally warned regarding discretionary sanctions in this topic area--Cailil talk 12:48, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Lvhis and Shrigley

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Oda Mari (talk) 17:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands#Final decision discretionary sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. [1] The first edit by Lvhis, restoring SummerRat's original edit.
    2. [2] The second edit by Lvhis.
    3. [3] After I removed SummerRat's POV, Shrigley restored the topic banned user's edit.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned Lvhis on June 6 by Oda Mari (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    A newbie User:SummerRat has been topic banned. See User talk:SummerRat#Topic ban because of [4], [5]. Two regular editors have done the similar edits. They should be topic banned too. Especially user Lvhis, as he was an involved party of the Arbitration case. Looking at his contributions after the Arbitration, he's been a SPA. Shrigley was not an involved party, but he is familiar with Senkaku-related matter. [6] Oda Mari (talk) 17:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notified.

    This issue began when SummerRat came to en:WP. When I first noticed SummerRat's tendentious edits was on May 15 by his these edits. [9]and [10] and I undid them. I checked his contributions and found his 8 tendentious edits on Vassal state. See the revision history and Talk:Vassal state. I was not the only one who thought his edits were POV. I saw this edit and that brought me to the China Marine Surveillance after I checked the image file. My first edit was this and I noticed Lvhis's edit. I checked the history of the page. This is SummerRat's first edit on China Marine Surveillance. Any islands names was not in the article. This is the first time he added the name Diaoyu Islands. User Widefox undid SummerRat's edits twice. [11] and [12]. Then came Lvhis's edit I noticed.

    What Lvhis and Shrigley did was POV pushing by supporting/abusing indef. blocked SummerRat's tendentious edits. They say "using Chinese name in this Chinese Marine Surveillance article" and "Chinese name is appropriate for article about China". There is no such MOS. Nor the consensus of the usage. I want them to provide examples of other articles using different names in different countries. Sea of Japan, Liancourt rocks, and Falkland Islands, they are the names used at en:WP even if they are are Korean articles or Argentine articles like Argentine ground forces in the Falklands War. At first it was only a problem of SummerRat's tendentious edits to me, but when I saw Shrigley joined, I refrained from editing on the name use edits and brought the matter here. Now the China Marine Surveillance and its ship articles created by SummerRat use Diaoyu Islands as if it's the name used in en:WP. Using Senkaku Islands is not a POV pushing as SI is the current article title, but not Diaoyu Islands.

    @Lvhis and @Shrigley, if there are any names usage like xx for AA country article and yy for BB country articles, please provide it. Oda Mari (talk) 16:35, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    @Cailil. What makes you think a MOS for the Sea of Japan has nothing to do with this? Lvhis and Shrigley are not different from Korean editors/IPs who once insisted "This is Korean article! We use East Sea!" to me. What do you think of "consistency" of the article name? Do you know why the current name is "Senkaku"? See [13]. Oda Mari (talk) 17:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion concerning Lvhis

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Lvhis


    • Admin Cailil's comment in this section is quite objective and fair. I need to clarify the "block" applied on my account on 20:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC), that happened 20 days before that Arbitration was requested. That "block" was applied by Magog based on "BRD" he thought but not "3RR". Afterward per admin Elen of the Roads's clear opinion in a detail discussion[29], that "block" was a wrong one as I did not violate that "BRD" (see [30][31][32]). As refactoring block logs is very difficult, Elen told me particularly that "I (=Elen) never delete anything from my talkpage archive (except drive by vandalism) so if you want you can keep a permanent link to this discussion in case anyone asks."[33]. I made a note in a section [34] of my talk page having that permanent link[35]"that the block or sanction enforced on my user account here on 20:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC) was a mistake, i.e. I should not have been blocked". This wrong block issue was raised and discussed during that Arbitration, the end is no arbitrator from Arbitration committee, neither in the the proposed decision nor in the final decision, nor anywhere during that arbitration, ever mentioned this "block" or counted it in for my behavior. As this happened quite long ago and the issue was quite complicated, I hope I have made it clarified if any admin checked/is checking my block log. I do not agree I should be topic banned but again, I appreciate admin Cailil's comment where the principle and main part were objective and fair. --Lvhis (talk) 00:36, 24 June 2013 (UTC) (ec)--Lvhis (talk) 16:12, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Few more words: I am not as guilty as Oda Mary is because:
    1. Oda Mary made mass changes based on her own opinion, neither on sources nor on policy; but I did not do so.
    2. Oda Mary is gaming the system by starting and bring this case to WP:ARCA and then this AE, but I am not gaming the system.
    If I will be treated same as Oda Mary will be, I will have been wronged at certain extent. Please consider the above differences when corresponding admin close this case. Thank you. --Lvhis (talk) 03:34, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by Shrigley

    This SummerRat business is a red herring. User:Oda Mari first disrupted longstanding text in China Marine Surveillance to engage in an aggressive, weeklong campaign to change a Chinese-origin name to a Japanese-origin name,[36][37] on grounds of "POV". This pattern has been repeated all over Wikipedia, where Oda Mari has been systematically removing one of the two widely used English-language names for the islands.[38][39][40][41][42][43] These links are all to China-related articles, where the removed name is especially relevant to direct quotes and the names of organizations. Oda Mari's intolerance about including the alternate name is matched by his intolerance for discussion and compromise. AE is not a substitute for normal dispute resolution.

    Addendum: I made a statement at ARCA opposing the creation of an NC-SoJ equivalent. The CliffsNotes version of my argument is:
    • Reliable sources on SoJ are near-unanimous on SoJ, but
      • Reliable sources on Diaoyu/Senkaku use both names, or are divided;
    • We had a big meatpuppet problem of anti-SoJ, pro-fringe editors, but
      • The only person making mass, Wikipedia-wide changes at this point is Oda Mari, a regular.
        • ∴ "Da Rulez" only stop drive-by IP or meatpuppet editors. You need case-by-case discussion with tendentious long-term users.
    Shrigley (talk) 16:30, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion concerning Shrigley

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Qwyrxian

    EdJohnston asked for my input on this matter. This is a tricky point, and one that I think is probably better solves as a content matter, rather than an AE matter. Edit warring, by anyone, is bad, and is grounds for sanctions. The problem is that here I think that both sides honestly believe that they are the ones making the articles neutral, and there is currently no guidance or established community consensus about how to name these islands. There were, as we know, multiple RfCs held, each of which upheld the current title of the article Senkaku Islands and it's closely related articles. However, per general policy, just because an certain article title has been chosen by community consensus does not mean that said name has to be used throughout Wikipedia in running text (if that were true, we could never use piped links). I think that, in general, it's best to match the article title, but there may be sound reasons for exceptions, including in a case like this. I can honestly see the arguments in favor of standardizing the name "Senkaku Islands" across Wikipedia, but I can also see the arguments in favor of keeping "Diaoyu Islands" on articles specifically related to the Chinese POV.

    Personally, I think that what we need is the equivalent of WP:NC-SoJ for the Senkaku Islands. I have an idea for what I think those rules should be (in short, similar to but more lenient to the CPOV than NC-SoJ), but deciding on said rules is a content discussion, probably best held at WT:NCGN (with notifications to related articles and Wikiprojects). I think the reason for the recent kerfuffle is because of some attempts to push around the edges of the ArbCom decision without coming directly at the meat of the matter; in the absence of a ruleset, it's easy for well-meaning but ultimately biased participants to end up edit warring to support their own POV, each believing the other side is "obviously" violating the sanctions and NPOV. Rules (discussed, then agree upon via RfC) should essentially remove the need for established editors to "fight" for the naming they feel is appropriate.

    In the meantime, however, I think that established editors should stop making any changes to the use of the terms anywhere in Wikipedia, except to revert changes by IPs (i.e., the above-mentioned SummerRat, who has vowed to keep socking to support his POV) or other new users. That is, lets have a moratorium on changes, and then work out the rules together. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:13, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    In reference to EdJohnston's request below, the most recent formal discussion is currently archived at Talk:Senkaku Islands/Archive 9#Request for comment: Article naming. There is currently some discussion at Talk:Senkaku Islands about starting a new RfC at Talk:Senkaku Islands#Name change suggestion. However (somehow I'd missed the recent updates), I see that Lvhis is again proposing to use a completely non-standard and inherently non-neutral RfC; I'll add a comment there about the problem. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    While I understand the intent of the uninvolved administrators here, note that this does basically mean that we can't work towards an actual solution for three months. I don't think we can reasonably pursue a site-wide naming policy without the input of both of these editors, especially Lvhis, who is generally the "spokesperson" for the side advocating a name change. Would it be possible to carve an exception for a discussion about establishing a naming guideline? Qwyrxian (talk) 22:42, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by EdJohnston

    Procedural note: I asked Qwyrxian if he would give his opinion here since he is an admin who seems to have some background knowledge of the dispute. He had previously commented in the amendment request at WP:ARCA, which User:Oda Mari withdrew in favor of this AE discussion. I will come back later to leave my own comment on this AE complaint. It would assist us in closing this if anyone who knows where the past discussions are about the naming of the Senkaku Islands if they can provide links. EdJohnston (talk) 16:31, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    I agree with Qwyrxian that Lvhis's attempt to set up a new RfC at Talk:Senkaku Islands#Name change suggestion is contrary to the usual structure for RfCs. Lvhis should not go further with this unless they can get general agreement that the wording of the RfC is appropriate. EdJohnston (talk) 22:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by Widefox

    • Comment: China Marine Surveillance was stable until the relatively recent disruption by SummerRat (now blocked / topic banned / socking) which started on 15 May 2013 [44] and [45] .

    A naming convention would help. I can see the argument for standardising on "Senkaku Islands", and the argument for proper nouns using other alternatives in context, with the proviso that articles should be NPOV even if the topic is about one party, to prevent POV forks.

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Lvhis and Shrigley

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    • Ok, I'm afriad the content matters are beyond the scope of AE and honestly probably also beyond RfAr. All we can consider is the behaviour. If any one is bringing a real world dispute to a previously unaffected article they are using WikiPedia to make a point. Anyone engaging in tag team reverting to maintain that point is both equally guilty of breaching WP:POINT and WP:EW.
      In terms of the case in hand Lvhis was a named party to the original RFAR and was blocked, in 2011, for breaking 3RR on that topic (usually that would be a long time ago but given that Lvhis has made very few edits, prior to this editwar, since the 2011 RFAR closed, I consider it relevant). This user seems to be motivated by this topic above all else on WP. That kind of editing is single-purpose and it is not constructive.
      WRT Shrigley I don't see that they've had prior notification of WP:AC/DS so in the very least I believe that they should be given that this time round.
      Oda Mari's hands are not clean. And of all 3 users here, they give us the most to talk about. Oda was a named party to the RFAR and thus like Lvhis can be sanctioned. I belive the request for ammendment and this AE are being used to win a content dispute, I believe they are gaming the system: if not malicously, then naively. The changes to the the names of the islands link to a MOS for the Sea of Japan, which has nothing to do with this case. This was done in this edits this month[46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53]. In my view these are all violations of the RFAR, none of them are based on sources, all are based on teh personal preference of the editor. While I think the reverting is equally disruptive, these changes are neither consensus nor source based and the decision to ask ArbCom to exclude the use of alternative names looks very pointy to me.
      I'd welcome input from other sysops here but I'm leaning towards bans for both Oda and Lvhis, with an AC/DS warning for Shrigley (unless they've already had warning and I've missed it)--Cailil talk 15:41, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Given the magnitude of the past dispute, I had expected that more editors would have chosen to comment by now. It now looks as though we should close this in a day or two. I am OK with the two bans and the warning that User:Cailil has recommended. EdJohnston (talk) 17:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • [EdJohnston asked me to comment here.] Having seen earlier instances of these naming conflicts, and the persistent role played in them by these editors, I wouldn't object to Cailil's solution either. Fut.Perf. 18:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Given that this is their first ban I'd suggest 3 month bans for Oda Mari and Lvhis, but I'm open to considering something else (less or more) if there's something I've missed--Cailil talk 18:35, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    @Oda Mari, I am not going to debate content with you Oda. That's not the purpose of this board. The WP:NC-SoJ has nothing to do with this issue. WP:NC-SoJ is not mandated by the Senaku Islands RfAr or anything else to allow change the names of these islands from one form to another. WP:NC-SoJ is not a precedent. You made mass changes based on your opinion. Not on sources. Not on policy. You then engaged in reverting to maintain your preferred wording. You then asked ArbCom to rule in your favour. You then came here to remove your opponents who although are guilty of disruption, are no more guilty than yourself. There is a warning in the big red box above about the consequences of coming here with "unclean hands"--Cailil talk 22:39, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    • I agree with Cailil on 3 month bans for Oda Mari and Lvhis. Shrigley ought to be formally warned of AC/DS. EdJohnston (talk) 14:47, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Qwyrxian: It is possible that some editors will want to work on a naming guideline for the Senkaku Islands which is analogous to WP:NC-SoJ. However I don't see any simple way to word an exception that allows Lvhis and Oda Mari to participate, so I propose not making the exception. A three-month delay on the guideline (if that is the effect) doesn't appear serious when the problem has been going on for years. EdJohnston (talk) 01:11, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The formal wording for Oda Mari and Lvhis will read:

      [editor's name] is topic banned from the subject of Senkaku Islands, widely construed, for a period of 3 months.

      Unless there is strong disagreement here from other uninvolved sysops I'll close this within the next 24 hours. Shrigley will get the standard WP:AC/DS warning relating to this RfAr--Cailil talk 15:21, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Closed. Unfortunately Qwyrxian that doesn't work. There is nothing stopping the rest of the wikiepdia community from establishing a guideline. Oda & Lvhis don't have a veto over community consensus--Cailil talk 12:48, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Bobby fletcher

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Bobby fletcher

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Zujine|talk 12:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Bobby fletcher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Wikipedia:ARBFLG#Principles

    Articles under the falungong topic area are subject to ArbCom discretionary sanctions, which state that the space is not to be used as a "soapbox for propaganda or activist editing" or for ideological struggle. But that is precisely what this user does. Few is any of his edits are genuinely constructive, and he has a checkered history of violating content and behavioral policies.

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    Conflict of interest and activist editing

    Bobby fletcher is a prolific online activist whose two main preoccupations include propagandising against falungong (which is suppressed by the Chinese government) and defending the Chinese government's actions in the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown. He also seeks to discredit human rights activists, including those who have attached themselves to the falungong cause on the issue of the Chinese government's alleged organ harvesting from political prisoners.

    • He has several personal blogs[54][55] through which he carries out this activism. To quote a news profile from the Western Standard magazine, “he posts his messages everywhere under several different names on Internet blogs and discussion groups. He writes letters to the editor anywhere and sends e-mails to anyone…[his] actions mirror disinformation campaigns waged by the Chinese government”.
    • News articles have been written on Bobby fletcher's online activism. This one is illuminating[66] (it notes that Bobby fletcher is an alternate handle of Charles Liu). One of the most troubling parts of this article is at the end. Canadian human rights lawyer David Matas (who works on the Falungong issue) says that Bobby fletcher/Charles Liu would email the offices of political staffers just before Matas was scheduled to meet with them. Matas notes "The only people who would have that information [on the meetings] would potentially be the Chinese government. I can't imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people."
    • Bobby spends more time on talk pages than on article space. His contributions to talk appear to be tendentious attempts to soapbox and promote non-mainstream views, which I don’t think is the purpose of the COI guideline.

    BLP violation

    • [67] – User suggests that the article on falungong’s founder Li Hongzhi should describe him as a “wanted fellon” (sic). This is a BLP violation, since Li has never been convicted of any crime, let alone any felony. This sort of casual misrepresentation of sources is common(another example[68])

    NPA / Outing violations

    • [69][70][71][72] – regularly makes out-of-context accusations that other editors are pov-pushing falungong members. I'm not sure if NPA violations need to have a specific target, but it’s not constructive either way.
    • [73] Sometimes he names the editors he doesn’t like by real names. This looks to be a WP:OUTING violation, and not for the first time (see below). [Diff should probably be oversighted]
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

    User was previously blocked for edit warring[74] and received numerous warnings for making personal attacks[75], for reposting private or oversighted personal information about other editors[76][77][78], copyright violations[79], and ongoing edit warring[80][81][82]. He was also warned about COI guidelines and advised not to edit in article space[83], but he didn’t seem to improve.

    I first took this case to the COI noticeboard, but it didn't get admin attention there. Bobby’s mocking and indecipherable response to that filing[84] indicates he doesn’t understand the problem.

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    If a lengthy debate ensures here, I suggest admins be on the lookout for red herrings.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    [85]


    Discussion concerning Bobby fletcher

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Bobby fletcher

    Admins, here are three most recent artices I tried to add, please tell me if they belong on Wikipedia, and/or how best to edit to avoid objection:

    - An article from London Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html

    - An article from San Francisco Chronicle: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Falun-Gong-Derided-as-Authoritarian-Sect-by-2783949.php

    - An annoncement form the Chinese embassy: http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ppflg/t36563.htm

    If you have time please, please look at the other articles I've tried to add as well, and let me know the level of objection I've received/currently receiving is warranted.

    Thanks! Bobby fletcher (talk) 16:25, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by Collect

    I would note that the embassy document (press release) is a "primary source" under Wikipedia policy (WP:PRIMARY) and is not usable as a result. The article saying there was no massacre in the square is interesting as the defense is that most of the killings were in Beijing but outside the square - which is a matter of "precise location" rather than of whether bloodshed occurred that day. I suggest many would find it a trivial cavil. The third source proffered is one about am anti-cult convention where one expects all the groups named to be defined as "cults" by the convention organizers. With regard to any comments about a person being a "felon", Wikipedia policy (WP:BLP) is very strong and appears not to be on Bf's side here. Collect (talk) 09:35, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]



    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Bobby fletcher

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    There is clear evidence of a sustained programme of tendentious editing on the part of Bobby fletcher. I would propose a one-year topic ban from everything Falun-gong-related. To the extent that the Tiananmen issue is considered not directly covered by the discretionary sanctions rule, I'd be willing to additionally impose a "normal admin action" block for disruptive editing for some shorter period. Fut.Perf. 09:50, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Brews ohare

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Brews ohare

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 22:58, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light#Motions #7
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 26 June 2013 Adding physics related content
    2. 26 June 2013 Re-adding it after it was removed (for reasons unrelated to the above ban)
    3. 26 June 2013 Discussing said physics related content on the talk page
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. previous AE visit, 14 Deb 2013 resulting in 1 week ban
    2. AE visit before that, 18 Dec 2012 resulting in final warning
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    [86]

    Discussion concerning Brews ohare

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Brews ohare

    Statement by Snowded

    There are several other cases. In particular material from Hawkins has been introduced into several philosophy articles, and Brews has been happy to edit war to restore the material. There are several of these but here are three, maybe four, I was able to find quickly.

    There have now been 3/4 RfCs called by Brews each time other editors have rejected his material but he just keeps telling them they are wrong. Its late at night, but I can find the diffs if needed.

    Statement by Collect

    Brews definitely edited about Physics "broadly construed" if one uses "broadly" broadly enough. Using such links as "length" is Physics-related, as would be "height", "elevation" "size", "mass" and "weight" In short, the ban seems to indicate a huge area, and I suggest it now be given a more reasonable and sharply defined ambit. Collect (talk) 09:45, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Brews ohare

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.