Talk:Elizabeth II

"Acceleration of decolonisation"

I see nothing whatsoever in that section to justify the heading. Having sort of gleefully discovered its existence, one would expect to see something about E2R having contributed in some discernible way to decolonization somewhere. The section should be heavily reduced, removed or justified. If not, I will be shortening it myself. SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:09, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't see how a problem in the heading justifies altering the section. The heading should be changed not the section. Celia Homeford (talk) 13:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm with Celia Homeford on this. The content is fine. The only thing that possibly needs to change is the heading. Keivan.f^Talk 15:45, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I've changed it to "Lead-up to the end of the Empire".—Alalch E. 12:38, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

OK but the whole section as worded is till irrelevant to a biography of Elizabeth II. Where is the relevance? She visited Yugoslavia. She didn't care for one leader. Her government changed. She had to fly home once. She supported a (colonial era!) governor general. Could someone please, well-sourced, adjust the text for some sort of relevance? This is a biography, not a story about non-connected, even contradictory, political details. Has anyone ever given Elizabeth II any specific credit for events that would lead up to the end of the empire? That would be very nice. Add it and source it, or change the heading again! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:11, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The whole h2 section is like this, this subsection isn't any different. It's a prose-ified and essentially disjointed timeline of noteworthy moments in her reign. It isn't supposed to credit her with decolonisation just as the Thatcher heading isn't supposed to credit her with Thatcher becoming prime minister. The names and placement of subsection headings is arbitrary and exist only to group the long string of paragraphs into groups of 3-5,6,7. The subheadings are essentially cosmetic.

For example, take the paragraph that starts with "In May 2007, citing unnamed sources, The Daily Telegraph reported that Elizabeth was "exasperated and frustrated" by the policies of Tony Blair ..." in the subsection "Golden Jubilee". What does that have to do with her Golden jubilee that occurred five years prior. Obviously, the heading is there just to psysically divide content and is not there to describe the content of the section. —Alalch E. 17:42, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

A solution: Special:Diff/1174625136 —Alalch E. 17:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that makes it worse. The other headings at least were personalised to Elizabeth's reign, and not just decades. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:05, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I prefer the chronological headings. I think they make it clear that these are the events of her reign , as it occurred over the decades. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 18:20, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Should we have an RfC? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:36, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Probably (almost certainly), but let's keep this open just a little longer to see if we should do some quick work on the content after all before giving more consideration to the headings before content (which wouldn't be the best order). —Alalch E. 18:51, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The issue I brought up in initiating this section looks like it has been solved now. As long as there is no heading that clearly infers that Elizabeth II was in some way instrumental to decolonization, along with nothing whatsoever in text to substantiate that she was, I'm OK with the current version. No reason for an RfC on this particular issue. New section, in that case. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:18, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

"From Elizabeth's birth onwards, the British Empire continued its transformation into the Commonwealth of Nations." is perhaps not an objective point of view. It seems to give an active, rather than reactive, role to the British Empire. The word "transformation" is quite vague, but it is quite difficult to describe succinctly the different processes by which different nations became independent of the Empire, some peaceful, some not. Not all of the British Empire transformed into the Commonwealth. Some of the countries that gained independence from the British Empire joined the Commonwealth. Some did not. From the point of view of the former colonies that did not join the Commonwealth, the British Empire did not transform into the Commonwealth.

I do not think it is clear that the supporting citation has Marr quoting from the Queen's personal retrospective point of view of the dismantling of Empire, and particularly (from her unique perspective) the role of Monarchy ('the Crown'), from the time of her grandfather's Silver Jubilee in 1935 to that of her speech at her Silver Jubilee banquet in 1977 at the Guildhall, 'I have seen, from a unique position of advantage, the last great phase of the transformation of the Empire into Commonwealth and the transformation of the Crown from an emblem of dominion into a symbol of free and voluntary association. In all history this has no precedent.' It does quite accurately describe the changing role of 'The Crown', but as a view of the dismantling of Empire it is partial (in both senses of the word) by omitting the countries that did not join the Commonwealth. Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 09:13, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

The citations and literature stating that the Commonwealth is the successor of the Empire is immensely vast. A summary sentence that is representative of the literature is all that is required here. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:37, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Most of the countries that left the British Empire which didn't join the Commonwealth, joined the Arab League (Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Somaliland, Sudan, UAE, Yemen). Ireland, Israel, and Myanmar(Burma) did not join the Commonwealth. Previously 1919 Afghanistan had gained independence as the British Empire gave up the Great Game. It would be enough to tacitly acknowledge that some countries had a different view by just saying most (or the vast majority) of the nations which became independent of the British Empire chose to keep ties/links with Britain by joining the Commonwealth. I had thought of adding they joined the Commonwealth with their own monarch or the British monarch as head of state, or as republics, but that might not be necessary if I were to change next sentence: "By the time of her accession in 1952, her[change to the British monarch's] role as head of multiple independent states was already established".

How about...

Between 1945 and 1968 the vast majority of colonies of the British Empire became independent nations, most of which chose to join the modernized Commonwealth of Nations .

This would be an improvement because

• more neutral tone and point of view
• no active agent of change
• accurately dates most decolonization as being 1945 to 1968, the last African colony, except Southern Rhodesia (supported by Wm. Roger Louis )
• says most countries joining the Commonwealth (and tacitly implies some didn't)
• indicates that modernization of the Commonwealth which allowed republics to recognize head of commonwealth, but not head of state, the pivotal point of the London Declaration 1949 creating the modern Commonwealth (supported by Celebrating thecommonwealth@60)

Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 07:43, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't see that as an improvement. 1945 is nothing to do with Elizabeth and like 1968 is an arbitrary cut-off. It also lumps all the countries together as 'colonies', which is inaccurate. There was a range of self-government and some parts of the Empire were dominions or protectorates not colonies. It's more accurate to say there was a slow transformation not set arbitrary limits. It also contains vague weasel words like 'vast majority', 'most', and 'modernized'. DrKay (talk) 16:52, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

This is the introduction of the section about Elizabeth's early reign, which I see as describing the changing Commonwealth and Empire which Elizabeth inherits.

Do you agree with my interpretation that this is the purpose here? And what period do you see as relevant?

1945 and 1968 are used by the source I quote (Louis), "Largely as a result of Macleod's momentum, all of Britain's remaining twelve African dependencies except Southern Rhodesia were independent by 1968. The number of people under British rule in the two decades after 1945 was reduced from 700 million people to 5 million, of which 3 million were concentrated in Hong Kong." The author deems these to be significant dates because the change in such a short historical time-frame is so fast and dramatic. It's not at all a slow process.

Compare taking Louis's range of 1945 to 1968 with the current version which is vague in not mention the dates of comparison from the supporting source, Marr's report of the speech comparing the Empire and Commonwealth of Elizabeth's Silver Jubilee 1977 with her grandfather's in 1935. 1935 and 1977 are arbitrary points at which to observe the changing Empire and Commonwealth. The current version extends consideration to a period not entirely justified by the source. I can see why it might be tempting to choose Elizabeth's birth as a starting point for a longer perspective, given that the 1931 Statute of Westminster extended self-government in the dominions of the British Commonwealth of Nations to be no longer subordinate to Great Britain. However 1931 is not strictly covered by the source, Elizabeth's account of what she had seen, even though she was educated in constitutional matters from a young age, I'm doubtful about what a five-year-old Elizabeth would seen of the passing of the Statute of Westminster, or of The Crown being regarded as an emblem of dominion.

Taking events chronologically, the significant developments in the Empire are the end of the British Mandate in Mesopotamia (Iraq) in 1932, and Egypt (except the Suez Canal) becoming independent in 1936. Though Darwin is wary of equating constitutional change with the end of empire in The End of the British Empire: The Historical Debate, 1991, which describes Egypt and Iraq as still being "under the thumb" of the British Empire. Neither Egypt or Iraq were invited (or sought to) join the Commonwealth (because that wasn't the purpose of the Commonwealth at that time).

The next significant date in the development of the Commonwealth that Elizabeth inherits is in 1949 where it changed its terms of association, which according to the source was "both innovative and bold in a number of ways", allowing membership without acknowledging the British Monarch as head of state, along with the dropping of 'British' from its title (the source "Celebrating thecommonwealth@60" has the Commonwealth describing itself as being 60 in 2009). It is not a weasel word to describe the Commonwealth from 1949 as "modern", or perhaps, as John Darwin puts it, rather floridly, as "re-imagined".

In the period 1945 to 1968 the dominions were already independent, and were already members of the Commonwealth so that's why I did not mention them becoming independent. I'm wary of the word 'protectorate' as a euphemism for colony. Would 'territories' be an acceptable alternative to 'colonies'?

I agree 'vast majority' or 'most' are vague and far from ideal. The current use of "transformed" is more vague, and overstating what happened in failing to acknowledge that parts of the Empire did not transform into the Commonwealth. I suggest that in both cases, vagueness arises from our both seeking brevity. Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 14:29, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I used "inherited", should have said something like "assumed the role" as Head of the Commonwealth. Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 15:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

To start with, Louis isn't a good source for this article. This is not a history of the British Empire. It is a biography of Elizabeth II. That's one of the reasons it starts in 1926 and ends in 2023. The article should be sourced from biographies of Elizabeth II. DrKay (talk) 16:13, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

You have inspired me to think, since this section is about the reign of Elizabeth then it should confine itself to her reign. It is being too ambitious, trying to cover too much in a couple of sentences, hence the problems with vagueness. Other topics should be covered elsewhere. We should rein ourselves in (excuse the terrible pun). Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 05:02, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

How about the simple, clear, and precise

At her accession in 1952, Elizabeth assumed the position of Head of the Commonwealth, a body of eight states. Of the the nations that gained independence from the British Empire, fifty two had joined the Commonwealth by the seventieth anniversary of her accession.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/70-years-the-queens-role-in-the-commonwealth/

The source says

"The organisation now has a membership of 54 countries, with nearly a third of the world’s population. Only two members—Rwanda and Mozambique—were not formerly part of the British empire." So I took the liberty of subtracting 2 from 54 to get 52.

One problem I can see is that 70 is arbitrary. Perhaps we could find a source that tells us how many countries in the Commonwealth by the end of her reign.

I really would like to preserve the liberty of quoting from other sources than biographies of Elizabeth II. Some of the biographies (not naming any names) are not of the highest academic standard. Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 05:31, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

There is also the issue of the countries that were once part of the British Empire but joined indirectly, (can't remember the name of the state that got independence from Australia and joined the Commonwealth). There's also cases like Cameroon, where most of Cameroon was a French colony, and only a small bit was part of the British Empire. Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 05:38, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Cross checking with Pimlott p182

"Apart from the United Kingdom, six self-governing nations - Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Pakistan and Ceylon - retained the British Monarch as head of state."

The distinction being between Head of the Commonwealth (8) and head of state (6). Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 05:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Member_states_of_the_Commonwealth_of_Nations say 56 members "The most recent members to join were the Francophone African nations of Gabon and Togo on 29 June 2022, who along with Rwanda and Mozambique are unique[sic] in not having a historic constitutional relationship with the United Kingdom or other Commonwealth states." so 52 members at the end of Elizabeth's reign.

So now I've re-written to

At her accession in 1952, Elizabeth assumed the position of Head of the Commonwealth, a body of eight states. Of the the nations that gained independence from the British Empire, fifty two were members of the Commonwealth at the end of her reign.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/70-years-the-queens-role-in-the-commonwealth/

I removed "joined" because it is not quite accurate. A membership count is simpler. Dominions didn't actually join (and in Ireland's case it left). Zimbabwe joined but was suspended & withdrew. Malaya merged with Singapore. Tanganyika and Zanzibar merged to form the United Republic of Tanzania. Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 06:34, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

And a further source to justify 56 - 4 = 52 in 2022, at the end of Elizabeth's reign.

https://thecommonwealth.org/news/gabon-and-togo-join-commonwealth Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 06:44, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Doh! It's 51. I was counting the UK as a nation that gained independence from the British Empire. 56 members - 4 (non-empire) - 1 (the UK) Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 06:47, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

The complexity of your comments here demonstrate that it is best to stick with the current brief summary. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:02, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

It seems more complicated than it is. My fault. I'll hold my horses until I have something more considered to say. Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 14:09, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Celia Homeford here. This section is a chronological summary of major events in QEII's reign. As soon as we start putting "descriptive" headings in, we're starting to editorialise. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 14:53, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting descriptive headings. I was trying to suggest something better than

"From Elizabeth's birth onwards, the British Empire continued its transformation into the Commonwealth of Nations. By the time of her accession in 1952, her role as head of multiple independent states was already established." Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 16:41, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

But the history of the transformation from Empire to Commonwealth, with some countries leaving, and some with no previous connection to the Empire joining, is very complicated. Elizabeth did not have a direct role in that, other than as Head of the Commonwealth. This is a biography of her, and trying to squeeze that complicated history, which affected many different nations and Britain itself, into a paragraph about her, is just too complicated. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 17:01, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Indeed Elizabeth did not have a direct role in the transformation of the Empire into the Commonwealth (and other states). As you say her role was Head of the Commonwealth. And she was Head of State of some Commonwealth countries. The complications you mention, it was I who raised them in my Black Hatting of my suggestions for improvements. I thought the part of this article based on Elizabeth's description of the transformation could be improved. As my admittedly rather obsessive and pedantic efforts at precision have met with considerable opposition, and therefore have been an embarrassing and abject failure, I've decided to let the matter rest. Forgive me, I'm not a very experienced Wikipedia editor, a bit autistic, and from a mathematical background. I shall take some time to learn more about the Wikipedian culture. Corsac Fox Kazakhstan (talk) 08:04, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Divorce date?

The page seems to list a divorce in 1995 with Prince Philip and the same is on his page? Getting mixed up with Charles and Diana maybe 46.69.47.174 (talk) 11:25, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. this was recent vandalism, and has now been corrected on both pages. Again, Thanks. Moons of Io (talk) 11:29, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

How can there be vandalism if the page (or article) is protected? Please explain. 74.15.254.221 (talk) 05:39, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

There are multiple levels of protection. IPs can't edit some articles, but those with accounts or those with 500 edits can edit them. —Panamitsu (talk) 06:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

last name

I have noticed her last name: Windsor is not included on this page... 185.130.156.203 (talk) 10:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

see Infobox - about three-quarters down: House name, Windsor. DeCausa (talk) 11:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Prime Ministers

Why are the prime ministers that served under Elizabeth not listed, unlike with other monarchs like Margrethe II of Denmark?

Should they be included in the infobox? Fm675 (talk) 00:14, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

This was discussed before & the view was, there's simply too many prime ministers to list, for the infobox. Also, we don't list them, in the infoboxes of her predecessors. GoodDay (talk) 00:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

For one thing, Elizabeth had 179 of them. Surtsicna (talk) 00:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

So why not just link List of prime ministers of Elizabeth II? ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:36, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

That's quite a funny one. I interpreted the question as prime ministers of the United Kingdom. —Panamitsu (talk) 10:29, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm opposed. I see no reason for it, and no other encyclopedia does it. Infoboxes are already filled with details that are either irrelevant, over-simplified, contentious, disputed, or decorative. This appears to another example of a parameter for the parameter's sake or an attempt to reduce articles to lists and tables. DrKay (talk) 06:51, 5 August 2023 (UTC) restated 17:00, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

RfC of interest

(non-automated message) Greetings! I have opened an RfC on WT:ROYALTY that may be of interest to users following this article talk page! You are encouraged to contribute to this discussion here! Hurricane Andrew (444) 20:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)