Talk:Goths

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Goth map in Sweden

The map of Gotaland (Gothland in English) should be changed, it only present the modern region Gotaland, the old Gotaland was bigger and covered parts of west Svealand (Svitjod) like Värmland (Wermland) aand Gotland (The Goth Land) should be included into that map as well.

A good map, can be found here, maybe little small, http://www.scania.org/activities/council2/illrep/med/Bild02.JPG —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roxpace (talk • contribs) 01:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Then however if this place is the origin or not for Goths is another story, but proofs are that Goths has been living there since 400 A.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roxpace (talk • contribs) 16:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Scandinavian origin

The whole article should be deleted. It contains wrong and outdated information about the origins of the Goths and indeed about the nature of the Goths. The section about the physical appearance of the Goths reminds of Nazi-style racism. Again, this article has no scholarly value whatsoever and should be deleted.--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.5.187.42 (talk) 07:28, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

--- This article is of no value. It contains plenty of false and outdated information. The stranges section is indeed the one about the physical appearance of the Goths. It may not be the intention of the author, but this clearly reminds of Nazi-style racism. The article needs to be rewritten completely. The current version is beyond repair and should be deleted urgently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfram2000 (talk • contribs) 07:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

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Really, folks. There is no proof whatsoever that the Goths came from Scandinavia. Every respected scholar agrees that they came from the Eurasian steppes north of the Black sea, migrated into Scandinavia and not from Scandinavia. This is only a nationalromantic view of the Swedes. Read Stenroth, Ingmar "Myten om goterna Från antiken till romantiken". It is obvious. Motörhead Remember Me (talk) 15:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above. The myth of the origin of the Goths can be tracked back through the ages to the Roman Empire. There is absolutely nothing that supports the idea that Goths originated from Swedish territory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.170.192.10 (talk) 18:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion so far: An anonymous German (82.35.89.68) wants to remove any mention of a Scandinavian origin, which he has tried to do at Heruls. He claims that the only Pre-Roman Iron Age Germanic culture that was Germanic with "certainty" was the German Jastorf culture. This is a claim which would make Germany the cradle of the Germanic tribes.

He names a number of German historians and a Dane, Christensen, as evidence against the possibility of a Gothic migration from Scandinavia. So far his evidence is restricted to naming scholars and to referring to German books.

Since he claims that his assertions are identical to modern scholarship. I present a list of scholarship which does not agree with him (the authors of Encyclopedia Britannica are not included) and interestingly, they include an author that he refers to:

Professor Erik Nylén of Gotland has also written a lot about Scandinavian/Gotlandic Goths and even Hachmann has agreed the Nordic peoples are Goths - not only the Vistula Goths. Yurij Knysch also had some good arguments for a Nordic connection. Herwig Wolfram also sees the connection.[1]

Hooker (1996):

Archaeologists put the geographical origin of the Germanic peoples in southern Scandinavia and northern Germany. There, they developed a warrior culture that was essentially democratic in character. As they migrated south and east, this democratic warrior society developed into a kingship and, as they came in contact with the Romans and Romanized Celts, they developed further aristocratic classes among the warriors and nobility. [...] The Goths originally migrated from Scandinavia and from there migrated south into Europe and east into southern Russia (some of their descendants still live in the Crimean area). The reason for this migration are unclear, but the standard, default interpretation is that they were pressured by overpopulation.[2]

WHAT ARE THOSE ARCHAEOLOGICAL FINDINGS? References please! Motörhead Remember Me (talk) 15:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

A quote from Watkins at San José University:

The most notable of the eastern Germanic tribes was the Goths. There is considerable historical evidence of the origin of the Goths in Scandinavia, possibly the Baltic island of Gotland, but in the second century A.D. the Goth moved from the lower Vistula River region to the area north of the Black Sea.[3]

Another quote from Linguistlist [4]:

First, East Germanic languages (of which Gothic was one) were closer to North Germanic (i.e. Scandinavian) tongues than to West Germanic ones. Such affinity implies a close relationship, if not direct derivation. The toponymics of the island of Gotland, as well as the modern Swedish provinces of Oester- and Vaestergoetland, where the Goths had supposedly originated, also show linguistic affinity. Second. Count Oxenstierna excavated incineration burials in Oester-and Vaestergoetland that, numerous in the second and first centuries B.C. suddenly became rare after about 50 B.C. This would suggest a disappearance of a significant portion of the previous population."

• Carlo Alberto Mastrelli in Volker Bierbauer et al, I Goti, Milan: Electa Lombardia, Elemond Editori

Associati, 1994.

• Graf E.C. Oxenstierna, Die Urheimat der Goten. Leipzig, Mannus-Buecherei 73, 1945 (later printed in 1948).

Another quote [5]:

Musset (a French scholar, my note) placed their Urheimat (the Germanic peoples, my note) in southern Scandinavia in the late Bronze Age, an area where no pre-Germanic linguistic substratum had been found (p. 4). From there some Germanic tribes spread along the Baltic coast, toward the Oder. Others followed the coast of the North Sea, toward the Weser. By 1000 BC, according to Musset, German habitat stretched from the Ems to central Pomerania (Demougeot dated their appearance in Pomerania much later, from 400 BC [ Demougeot, 1969, 45]. If we follow Musset, by 800 BC Germans reached Westphalia in the West and Vistula in the East. And 300 years later they could be found on the lower Rhine, in Thuringia and Lower Sileasia (Musset, I, 4)."

A list of modern scholarship who support Jordanes, from Linguistlist [6]

• Bell-Fialkoff, A., The Role of Migration in the History of

the Eurasian Steppe, London: Macmillan, 2000.

• Findeisen, Joerg-Peter, Schweden - Von den Anfaengen bis zur

Gegenwart, Regensburg: Verlag Friedrich Pustet, 1998.

• Hermodsson, Lars, Goterna - ett krigafolk och dess bibel ,

Stockholm, Atlantis, 1993.

• Nordgren, I., Goterkällan - om goterna i Norden och på

kontinenten, Skara: Vaestergoetlands museums skriftserie nr 30, 2000.

• Rodin, L. - Lindblom, V. - Klang, K., Gudaträd och västgötska

skottkungar - Sveriges bysantiska arv, Göteborg: Tre böcker, 1994.

• Schaetze der Ostgoten, Stuttgart: Theiss, 1995.

• Studia Gotica - Die eisenzeitlichen Verbindungen zwischen Schweden

und Suedosteuropa - Vortraege beim Gotensymposion im Statens Historiska Museum, Stockholm 1970.

• Tacitus, Germania, (with introduction and commentary by J.B. Rives),Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1999.

Other works:

• Kaliff, Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
• Carlo Alberto Mastrelli in Volker Bierbauer et al, I Goti, Milan: Electa Lombardia, Elemond Editori

Associati, 1994.--Wiglaf 23:02, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[Comment below originally added in the middle of Wiglaf's comment above and replying to the paragraph: Professor Erik Nylén of Gotland has also written a lot about Scandinavian/Gotlandic Goths and even Hachmann has agreed the Nordic peoples are Goths - not only the Vistula Goths. Yurij Knysch also had some good arguments for a Nordic connection. Herwig Wolfram also sees the connection.[7]:]

Unfortunately, the above text is not correct. Rolf Hachmann (1970) does not agree that the Nordic people are Goths. This is a mis-interpretation of his work. My teacher Herwig Wolfram does fully agree that the Goths, or better the Wielbark culture of which the Goths were possible a constituent part did not come from Sweden or any other place, but that the Wielbark culture developed authochtonously in the Vistula region. Yurij Knysch who appeared for a while on some discussion fora is not a historian and his view should not be taken as supportive evidence. Instead, the author of this terrible article should read the work by V. Bierbrauer on the archaeology of the Wielbark culture and the Goths and consult the supportive historical argumentation by authors such as Th. Burns, H. Wolfram and recently A. Soeby-Christensen. The article is packed with historical mistakes, distortions and fantasy that it needs substantial revision. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.74.91.136 (talk) 01:09, 10 September 2006

You appear very enthusiastic about their non-Scandinavian-ness. Please be constructive and add arguments with references (of course). Asserting that the Scandinavian origin is "widely rejected" is so contradicted by the authors referred to in the article that your addition is frankly a blatant lie. It is also interesting that the statement you anonymously claim is wrong is made by Ingmar Nordgren and signed with his own name. Ingmar Nordgren is authoritative enough on the matter to have his work translated into English (The Well-Spring of the Goths).--Berig 05:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

PS. Checking your overall edits, you seem to be primarily interested in arguing for Continental origins for Germanic tribes and in rejecting Scandinavian connections (I hope it has nothing to do with your being Suiss).--Berig 12:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all, there's no chance at all that Scandinavians simply sprang up de novo, in autochthonous manner. Surely we're all past that and won't be revising all of the rest of Wikipedia to have Homo sapiens appear first in Scandinavia. Since this is something I've been interested in professionally for 30 years, let me say that it is generally agreed that ALL Scandinvanians come from a small founding population (Y chromosome R1a-) at around 6000 BP. Denmark, surprisingly, has few longterm inhabitants before the rapid advance of the Neolithic, around 6000BP, probably 2000 years or less after the arising of blue eyes. The original founding population of blue eyed people come from the area between Pskov/root of the Finnish peninsula and could be given any number of tribal names - but ALL blue-eyed people descend from those people and obviously, the brown alleles didn't exactly make it to Sweden and Norway in any great numbers until very recently (as in the last 100 years, even last 40 years). Herwig Wolfram is not the only person drawing the intelligent conclusions noted above by an anonymous editor. The Wielbark culture, as a contiguous/related culture to the Hallstatt peoples seems indisputable. The upper Vistula would be an appropriate place for the River-Cultures (which were more hierarchical and specialized in occupation) to meet the Blue-Eyed Sea People (whose sea-going skills were developing rapidly and whose eventual history is definitely well known). But, the PIE root G~T, (Got, Gut, Gots, Goth, etc) PRECEDES the habitation of Sweden. So this whole article needs major revision - starting with taking out that map of Sweden as the founding place of the Goths. The Got/Gots/Goth people were very very enterprising and wonderful - and they were both part of a pre-existing family of Swedes as well as closely related to their mainland family (why wouldn't they be?). Upper Vistula is a much better guess, genetically, linguistically, culturally etc. BTW, the other interesting fact about the Vistula hypothesis is that they were river-boating people with several different methods of boat-building. Someone had to build the boats, you know. If evidence can be found that the sound sequence Got/Gut/Goth/Guth/Gutz etc was not in use until people arrived in Scandinavia - then that idea might have a go. But that evidence simply isn't there; all the evidence points to the opposite. I'm nearly in the mood to take that map out at the very least. I think this discussion has gone on long enough and that enough has been said against the Swedish hypothesis. There are no citations to support the map.LeValley 03:13, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The Goths and Scandinavia

The explanation for Jordanes' (and modern researchers') association between Goths and Scandinavia may be due to two reasons. Modern authors have also consulted old English texts to associate them with Scandianvia. It is possible that Jordanes derives the Goths from Ptolemy's (ca 100 AD) Go(u)tais, most likely identical to the Cwens (or Quæns, "the Kings") somewhere in Scandinavia; presumably a hunter-gathering group. Unfortunately, althought intresting, the essential sources on this group is Norse sagas. Besides being good magicians, they spend all their time on the battle-field fighting christianity. Unfortunately, this is not very much of scientific value and the Goths were actually one of the first groups adopting christianity. Scandinavia, in particular Sweden where you claim being the Gothic resident, was one of the last regions in Europe adopting Christianity! Secondly but also intrestingly; names in Jordanes' Getica does also occure in the english poem Beowulf; but it is not clear whether they refers to Scandinavian Goths, or whether the poem actually refers to Goths in Central Europe. Note that the Slavic tribes' historical existence are very similar to the Gothic realm. Thus, I don't think it is a good idea to state that the Goths were actually Swedes. Just my cents. (83.226.130.159 10:09, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC))

See ''Gothicism'' and Swedish Gothicism

1. Jordanes wrote in the 6th century, when there was hardly any Old English literature.
2. I don't see how you can connect the Goutai with the Quens.
3. Quen has no such etymology that I have heard of. It is usually connected with a word for "woman".
4. The time when the Goths are believed to have migrated vary from the 7th century BC to the 1st century AD, so it is not relevant to discuss whether they were ethnic Swedes and neither does the article.--Wiglaf 16:11, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This consideration is covered by some authors (See e.g. The Goths; Peter Heather; 1996) because Ptolemy lists Goutais in his geographical tables which have been compared with Two voyagers at the court of king Alfred : the ventures of Ohthere and Wulfstan .... Peter proposed to literary distinguish and divide Goths into Goths and Scandinavian Goths, where Sc. G. sometimes refers to Goutais, sometimes to Geates. Note that Geates may not be "Scandinavian" at all, because Beowulf don't locate them geographically so the Scandinavian "Goths" merely refers to Goutais.

I suggest that you don't take Heather's hypotheses for facts as he has his own ideas. Read some other authors to get a more balanced view.--Wiglaf 21:26, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, he presents an idea due to the (most likely) misassociation, because the Goths after 6th century introduced the christianity and Scandinavia or Sweden has nothing to do with this. (83.226.130.159 21:45, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC))

The article does not claim so either. The article points out Sweden as the traditional original homeland of the Goths which was long before the 6th century.--Wiglaf 21:52, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Maybee not, maybee, but it states that W/W culture have "strong influences" with Southern Scandinavia, when actually the article it refers to state there is only vague resamblence. Secondly, note that high-mounds were before something considered to be possible "Gothic" related. (83.226.130.159 00:45, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC))

You apparently have not read the second link which states that the similarities may be due to long-term contacts. Archaelogists consider the WW culture to be similar to the Scandinavian culture. Moreover, I have a few questions for you:

1. why do you claim that the article only states a vague resamblence, when it plainly does not? It states that it is difficult to equate archaeological culture with ethnicity, and I hope you're familiar with this problem
2. from where do you pick up the high mound argument? Burial customs varied, even in Scandinavia, and the mound tradition is thousands of years older.--Wiglaf 07:36, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I simply suggest to write a more neutral article, perhaps moving the large part of the W/W culture-interpretation to its own article. It shall also be stated here on this talk-page that some scholars usually translate Scythia into Gothia to describe the early Romano-Gothic interactions; at least this article refers to this interaction in terms of Goths.

We can also mention that Gotia or Goths is by very early cartographists (ca 100 AD) associated with an island in Northen Europe, the Fenno-Scandia, and that there have been a long tradition to literary associate for example historical-Gotland, since modern time furthermore associated with present-Gotland, to extend the Scandinavian history beyond their own historical records, and that individuals such as Wulfila might also have done something similar when he derives his own history as beeing Goth. (Wulfila refers to records describing the Goths as pagan, but does not mention this, whereas he self derives his history as being one of the first Christian Europeans.) (83.226.130.159 19:34, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC))

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Wiglaf wrote:

I don't think so. He chose the arguments and I showed the problems of those arguments. If it was well-written and sound I would hardly succeed in doing so, would I?

No you didn't. All you really did was attack him without even bothering to read his well researched papers. If you had, you would have known that he is already well aware of all these outdated "Germanist" sources, most of which do not take the archaeological record into account:

Hi JDP, I see that you have finally got yourself a username :-). Why are you so angry? In order to explain to you I will quote my criticism. I consent that I have only read the piece that you (?) quoted from him.

1. he limits the time period to 100BC-100AD, consciously omitting the time prior to this. Why? The preceeding period probably does not fit his opinions.
2. he proposes that they only came from the Continent. Where is his "evidence" for that? His only evidence is claiming that there is no "evidence" for the Scandinavian origin (NOTE: he has excluded the period prior to 100BC). Then, he uses the logic fallacy "As there is not 100% evidence for theory A, this proves that theory B is right" (for which there is no proof either, by the way). Non-scholars may fall for it, though, but I consider it to be spurious scholarship.
3. I rarely see serious scholars use the term "evidence". Most academically trained people are wary of such terminology.
4. He asserts his point of view and ignores the implications (did the Goths come from Germany or was Poland the cradle of the Germanic languages?).
5. He asserts what fits his own ideas and avoids discussing the problems. That impresses very few scholars. --Wiglaf 17:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Since many "Germanist" historians practically avoid the issue of archaeology altogether, Peter Heather's The Goths (1996) was mainly used in reconstructing the historical scenarios as described by Jordanes. Heather paraphrases the earlier work established by German authors like Hachmann who discovered that a "Gotho-Gepedian" culture more likely originated from northern Continental Europe rather than southern Sweden (Heather 1996, 14)." [8]

If you settle in a new territory, perhaps as an aristocracy, you hardly bring the pottery with you, do you? That is why archaeologists normally do not speculate about ethnicity.--Wiglaf 17:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That is the reason why Heather's book is valuable for researchers, and why he chose it before others available back then. Also, notice that Hachmann is mentioned, and it is clearly said that he does not propose a Scandinavian origin but a continental one.

He proposes, he hardly proves such an origin, right?--Wiglaf 17:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wiglaf wrote:

Well, if Heather hypothesizes that the Goths could not have had a Scandinavian origin, he does so without evidence.

On the contrary, he does so relying on archaeological evidence.

I reiterate that few archaeologists speculate on ethnicity and language in connection with archaeological cultures. Moreover, it is spurious to call a certain material continuity "evidence" concerning non-material issues such as language and ethnicity. Have you ever heard of substrata?--Wiglaf 17:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wiglaf wrote:

Neither Encarta, Encyclopedia Britannica nor the BBC consider Heather's speculations to be worth mentioning.

I am not sure what Encycopledia Britannica says about this issue because I do not have the latest edition right at hand now, and the online edition is not for public view:

"Member of a Germanic people whose two branches, the Ostrogoths and the Visigoths, for centuries harassed the Roman Empire. According to their own legend, reported by the mid-6th-century Gothic historian Jordanes, the Goths originated in southern Scandinavia and crossed in three ships under their king Berig to the southern shore of the Baltic Sea, where they settled…" [9]

That's all you can read without becoming a member, and notice that this excerpt is talking about LEGEND, not facts. If you have access to the whole article maybe you can tell us what their opinion is regarding the validity of such legends.

In any event, sometimes it takes a while for encyclopedias to "catch up" with modern scholarship. Brockhaus Encyclopedia, for example, no longer maintains the supposed Scandinavian origin theory. I suppose other encyclopedias will "catch up" sooner or later. --JDP 17:23, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Did you know that many modern scholars suggest that Jordanes account has a foundation in real events? See the list above.--Wiglaf 17:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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:Hi JDP, I see that you have finally got yourself a username :-). Why are you so angry?

Not "angry", but rather amused. By the way, I am not the "anonymous German" you were referring to earlier. That's obviously another person who also has noticed that there is something "strange" going on with this article. It very suspiciously refuses to take note of well respected sources that point otherwise, even to the point of trying to dismiss a widely acknowledged writer like Heather, who happens to be a respected Oxford professor of History.

If you find that objectionable, I will include those authorities. No problem.--Wiglaf 20:33, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In order to explain to you I will quote my criticism.

I am already aware of your "criticism", but most of it can hardly be considered major opposition. You keep bringing up moot points, most of which Anctil and others are already well aware of, but they still prove or deny nothing.

If Anctil was aware of those moot points, why did he not consent that his arguments had problems?--Wiglaf 20:33, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Anctil gives more importance to archaeology -and rightly so- than "Germanist" speculations. According to Anctil(who bases his conclusions mostly on Heather's), there is no archaeological evidence suggesting a Scandinavian origin of the Goths that is earlier than the sites found in Poland, therefore the most logical conclusion is that such a culture originated on the continent, and later "exported" some aspects of its culture to Scandinavia. Some Scandinavians -whether "aristocrats", or "peasants", or whatever- among them does not translate into "Goths = Scandinavians".

So you don't like the equation Goths=Scandinavians? I suspected as much. AFAIK, very few people have ever suggested that the Goths were "pure" Scandinavians. If you are aware of the history of known population movements, such as the Anglo-Saxons, you may know that immigrating rulers usually assimilate parts of the earlier populations. Genetic testing has shown that the Angles and the Saxons assimilated considerable portions of the Celts.--Wiglaf 20:33, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And "point" 3 is rather strange. You have "rarely" seen scholars use the term "evidence"? Even the authors of some of your very own links use it frequently.

I consent that I was thinking of my own specialty, Cognitive Science, where positivist arguments of proof is considered to be obsolete, due to the lack of one-to-one equivalence between reality outside people and the concepts inside people.--Wiglaf 20:33, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If you settle in a new territory, perhaps as an aristocracy, you hardly bring the pottery with you, do you? That is why archaeologists normally do not speculate about ethnicity

That's funny because even the author of one of your links [10] does that. Despite claiming that it is difficult to put ethnic origins on "archaeologically defined cultures", he keeps assuming and asserting -without providing any clear explanations- the supposedly Scandinavian origin of the Goths and "Gepidae". I guess that if we can pretend to rule out Anctil on such rather "loose" premises we can also safely discard good ol' Tadeusz Makiewicz as a "pseudo-scholar" as well.

I will have to remind you that you assertively rule out a Scandinavian background for the Goths, even though, an archeologists would hardly do so, since they know that population movements are hard to pinpoint archeologically.--Wiglaf 20:33, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

He proposes, he hardly proves such an origin, right?

In Hachmann's times there probably still wasn't enough archaeological evidence for him to fully prove it. By Heather's times things were a bit different, as there now was much more archaeological data.

Even very probable invasions such as the Battle-axe people are ruled out as "cultural diffusion", by archaeologists. I don't see how you could arrive at such facts through archaeology. Moreover, there is plenty of archaeological data supporting a Scandinavian immigration before the 1st centry BC. See Kaliff's dissertation.--Wiglaf 20:33, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I reiterate that few archaeologists speculate on ethnicity and language in connection with archaeological cultures. Moreover, it is spurious to call material continuity evidence concerting non-material issues such as language and ethnicity

Funny because that's what Tadeusz Makiewicz does -whether wittingly or unwittingly, I am not sure- in such passages as:

"Recent archaeological research and lengthy debate on this subject have, however, established that the Wielbark Culture did not simply come into being as a result of the arrival of tribes of Scandinavian Goths in Pomerania."

"Wielbark communities comprised mostly members of tribes already settled in this area with the addition of Scandinavian migrants, who maybe arrived here in small groups."

"The Wielbark Culture appears to have been composed of Scandinavian Goths and Gepidae as well as of earlier local communities - the Venedi and Rugii."

He certainly seems to be very at ease assigning geographical/cultural origins to different groups, doesn't he? Unfortunately he forgot to clearly explain why such associations seem so "clear" to him.

Population groups, generally speaking, yes. However, he acknowledges that it is impossible to rule out or confirm the immigration of smaller groups. Smaller groups that may have arrived as rulers.--Wiglaf 20:33, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You claim that it will be catching up. Do you know that many modern scholars claim that Jordanes account has some truth in it? See the list above

Many in that list are outdated sources, published before Heather's or Christensen's works. --JDP 21:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Some of the books are from 2000 and 2001, and this list was compiled in 2002. Moreover, in a few weeks the book "The Well Spring of the Goths" by Nordgren is going to be published in the US. 667 pages, and important enough to be translated into English.--Wiglaf 20:33, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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An anonymous contributor wrote:

Andrzej Kokowski is a good friend of mine and we worked together on some exhibitions about Vandals and Goths in the past. He certainly is the leading Polish expert on Wielbark archaeology and you would hear from him nothing but that the Wielbark culture is indigenous to the Vistula region. He allows for some Scandinavian influence but always argues that the Wielbark-Goths did not come from Scandinavia.

Thank you for that information. So it seems Kokowski has rather different views than Tadeusz Makiewicz, who very obviously believes the Goths and "Gepidae" to be "foreign" elements to the earlier local peoples of Poland.

I take it that you must be a scholar on the subject yourself or something to that effect? I mean, you said that you "worked" with him on some exhibitions. --JDP 21:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The origin of the Goths in Scandinavia is, as alreadey mentioned, quite dubious. Besides Christensen and Heather cf. Volker Bierbrauer in Frühmittelalterliche Studien 28, pp. 51ff. Jordanes presents us a constructed history, the origin in Scandinavia is meant as a topos.

I agree that the Scandinavian origin of the Goths is a controversial issue. However, I do not agree that "the stance that [Swedish] historians take in the issue is an ideological symbol". To me, this somehow implies that those who favor the Scandinavian origin do so for nationalist reasons. It may be the case for some, but hardly for most. KarlXII 13:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

All the germanic cultures came from Scandinavia, the Goths are a progressive phenomena, the goths are a mixture with many others cultural manifestations from early iron age in northern poland, they have many links with southern Sweden but are not the same culture, the swedish goths are a portion of population isolated in their original homeland with a few links with the historically goths but are not the same, the Goths are a Swedish origin culture but with many mixtures from another cultures swedish just in their origin

equitatus gothorum

I am looking for references to explain the 19th century portrayal of Goths as a "horse people" with a strong cavalry etc. Is this based on Jordanes or other early sources? The Fornaldursagas? Is it connected with a confusion of Huns and Goths during the Middle Ages? What is the opinion of contemporary historians, did the Goths learn horsemanship from the Alans or Huns? dab (ᛏ) 11:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See the following: Ammianus Marcellinus; Sir Charles Oman : Adrianopol 378 (from Geofrey Regan book) CristianChirita 16:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"...or better Gothones"

Why in the archaeology section are we reading "In Poland, the material culture associated with these Goths (or better Gothones)..." Gothones, eh. Why "better" Gothones? Or why not "Guthones"? "Gothones" gets about 470 Google hits. If it were better, why haven't we been saying "Gothones"? all along? It sounds a little affected in English, to be honest. May we get rid of "Gothones"? --Wetman 15:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

It has been around for so long that I have got used to it. I remove it since it really serves no purpose.--Wiglaf 15:59, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I was beginning to think I must have been out sick the day they gave out the vocabulary sheets... --Wetman 17:06, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Council of Basel?

What is the actuality behind this, if any?

"This claim of Gothic origins led to a clash with the Swedish delegation at the Council of Basel, 1434, during which the Swedish delegation argued with the Spanish about who among them were the true Goths. The Spaniards argued that it was better to be descended from the heroic Visigoths than from stay-at-homers."

Can anyone with a brief quote perhaps make good history out of this? (Query repeated at Talk:Council of Basel) --00:14, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

This is a fairly often mentioned incident, but unfortunately, I have only one reference at hand, at the moment - Kaliff, Anders: Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD. 2001.--Wiglaf 06:42, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

The point of the incident, if it was historical, which is to say reported at the time of the Council of Basel, 1424, is only in fixing 15th-century perceptions of what "Gothic" meant. Actual Gothic connections in the late first millennium are an utterly separate question. Can anyone see why this is so? --Wetman 10:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)4

Be very cautious about the rewriting of history here. The objective of the Council was to consolidate Papal Supremacy in the wake of the Council of Constance, where Pierre d'Ailly and Jean Gerson hatched a plan to invert the power structure of the Concilium, given the 5 Kings could not get on with each other, resulting in the Papal Schism. An interregnum followed to placate the traditionalists in the Roman Famiglias, in the Papacy of Martin V, which was followed by a radical divergency from the Petrine Line in the election of the Venetian (and therefore Marcine) Gabriele Condulmer as Eugenius IV. ::The second half of the original plan was then unveiled, in the completion of the theology of Jan van Ruusbroec (On the Spiritual Tabernacle, which consolidated the doctrine of the Eucharist and would become the foundation of Windesheim and nascent Protestantism) recommended by Gerson, the full quadrivium support coming from two members of d'Ailly's management team, the young Jan van Eyck and Guillaume Dufay, at Constance, although they would not produce their work until the roll-out of the change under Eugenius in the ealry 1430s.

The theme has a very non-academic objective, therefore, and although likely true, simply rewrites history, as the Ostrogoths followed on the heels of the Visigoths writing an end to Roman Imperial power. Their stem clans, the Goths, pretty much remained in Central Eastern Europe, and, weakened by the loss of large numbers of the tribes, would soon be subsumed in Ruric's Viking Kiev Empire.

Bibliography:

ISBN 078 90 209 6788 3, van Ruysbroec, Jan, Van den geestelijken tabernakel, ed Professor Thom Mertens (Dean of the Ruysbroec speciality school at Antwerp University), Lannos Brepolis, 2006

ISBN 0-226-31032-9 Guenée, Bernard (Professor of History, Sorbonne), Between Church and State, The Lives of Four French Prelates in the Late Middle Ages, Chicago UP 1987, p199

The Fountain of Life, Jan van Eyck, Prado Art Gallery

The Mystic Lamb, Jan van Eyck, St Navos Cathedral, Ghent

ISBN 0-674-01363-8 Wright, Craig (Professor of the History of Music, Yale), The Maze and the Warrior, Symbols in Architecture, Theology and Music, Harvard UP, 2001

It was historical, as far as I know ! Even tradtionally, we have been told these things by the older generation. There will always be difference in perceptions and the 15th century is no exception to the rule.
Gothic Hero 05:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Tacitus, "Mare Suebicum"

The phrase Mare Suebicum is resoundingly and repeatedly suppressed, and the reader is given instead only the modern interpretation. ("Baltic Sea" may in fact be correct.) Could someone with a basic grasp of the rules of presenting historical evidence fix this please? --Wetman 10:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Goth should redirect here

I think the term Goth should point foremost to this article, not to the subculture as it does now. This would require changing a vast amount of links, though. Any suggestions? Rain74 11:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Not Accurate

Although this article makes good use of citations (in comparison to others on wikipedia) there is still a few mistakes in areas which citation is lacking. I don't have time right now, but i will fix them in the near future. Cheers, MedievalScholar 19:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Rawe edit

The following destroyed the map. Can it be re-edited for the article? "The red area and in the traditional province of Ostrogothia, in Sweden, archaeological evidence shows that there was a general depopulation during this period. The settlement in today's Poland probably corresponds to the introduction of Scandinavian burial traditions, such as the stone circles and the stelae, which indicates that the early Goths preferred to bury their dead according to Scandinavian traditions. The Polish archaeologist Tomasz Skorupka states that a migration from Scandinavia is regarded as a matter of certainty:" --Wetman 18:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

References

A citation problem

"In Sweden, archaeological evidence shows that there was a general depopulation during this period". I am suspicious of this. I am not personally aware of such a theory. The cited source is quite possibly obsolete, as it was published in 1945. The Iron Age settlement archaeology in Sweden has developed with giant leaps during the recent decades, and the depopulation hypotheses have been largely refuted at least in some regions. It is not unlikely that some interpretations made by Count Oxenstierna regarding Östergötland have been overruled. Please find out a more recent and convincing source, maybe some book of Anders Kaliff?--217.112.242.181 10:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

please help? dab (ᛏ) 11:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I would love to. Unfortunately, I am living nowhere near a decent archaeological library right now, and I am not even a Swede=).--217.112.242.181 11:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting objection. You presuppose that the source is obsolete but you have no other sources to back this up with. Only your personal suspicion that it is possibly obsolete. I don't think that this is a valid objection to the reference.--Berig 14:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. The problem with your reasoning is that archaeology is not like other disciplines where you can redo the study. When you have excavated a "vacated village", you can't do the excavation again to show that it was not vacated. What can be changed is the interpretation of the finds and that is what you refer to. What happened after the great dislocations of populations (Germans and Slavs who changed places in Poland and the Czeck Republic) was that the cultural diffusion school became popular. This school assumes that there was little or no migrations, and instead there was a diffusion of languages and objects. You appear to say that Oxentierna's study is obsolete because of its date. This probably means that you assume that it belongs to the demic diffusion school. As you can see, I can only guess at your objections, because you did not explain them properly. I find your objections POV and remove your tag, until you have provided sources that say otherwise.--Berig 13:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, you guessed wrong, but you are forgiven. But, really, you must understand that archaeological research gets old. As far as I know, Iron Age settlement site archaeology in Sweden had barely started when Count Oxenstierna wrote his thesis. At least the research material is nowadays much bigger and much more representative! In this field, the interpretations made in the 1940´s are not very trustful if not confirmed in the recent research. Anders Kaliff, a leading expert of Ostrogothian archaelogy, does not mention the population decline at all in his book Gothic Connections, although he believes in a limited Gothic migration from Sweden to Poland. Limited migration, of course, would not be recognisable in the settlement site data.

I have read many other books relevant to this subject as well, and I cannot remember any of them making any claims of the said populaton decline. Unfortunately I cannot provide more sources right now, but I think I have justified my objection.--217.112.249.156 18:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Genetics

I have removed the following section, which looks like original research. It does not seem worthwile to keep in the article for the following reason: If the comparison between modern Swedes and modern Spaniards is to say anything about the number of Spaniards patrilineally descended from Swedish Goths, the section has to describe the distribution of haplogroups prior to the Gothic invasion and exclude other genetic contributions:

Since their early migrations from northern Europe, the Goths had mixed with numerous other nations, whether Oksywie culture, Zarubintsy culture, Sarmatians, Dacians, etc. Consequently there were probably few "pure blooded" Goths at the time when they invaded Spain.

It should consequently be difficult to find any larger Germanic genetic influx in Spain. The following shows the relative percentages of the Swedish and German populations contributed by the various Y chromosone haplogroups - I Hg (42 v 19%), R1b (22v 44%), R1a (19 v 12%). Hence any chromosone signature related to the Goths would be lost in the genetic noise associated with the ancestral Germanic populations. Further when looking at Spain one finds the I & R1a Hg contents dropping away to only 8 & 2% respectively. Whilst it would be tempting to set an upper limit of 10% of Spain's population being paternally descended from Swedish Goths, this calculation assumes that the ancestral Spanish population had no prior R1a Hg content before the arrival of the Goths.

I don't think it gives any valuable information whatsoever as the number of Spaniards with Swedish haplotypes could be anything from 0% to 10%. It is misdirected original research, IMHO.--Berig 12:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree: I was going to remove it myself, but you preceded me.--Aldux 12:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree. This section does not give us any important and relevant information about Goths (to sum it up: "the Spaniards may have some Scandinavian genes or maybe not"). Even if it weren't original research it's not conclusive enough to be useful. Friendly Neighbour 12:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

There has been a lot of work done recently with genetics and ancient peoples. Many articles talk about it .. Anglo-Saxons, Huns.. we should not discount the ongoing genetics research which is new, often inconclusive, but interesting and cutting edge. This particular paragraph looks accurate (who would.. could .. make it up?) but it is unsourced. If there was a source we could summarize the findings, removing the biology class gobblygook. But we need a source to attribute. I plan on reading a recent survey on the Goths soon and will keep an eye out for more info. No doubt the Goths origins is a complex and controversial disucussion. -- Stbalbach 16:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

In the article (specifically under the history sub title) it says "you're all lying" can someone delete it.69.236.181.245 05:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted this very vandalism about eight hours before you wrote the above comment. I do not understand how you can still see it unless you see a version from your browser cache. Try deleting it (I mean the cache not the article!). Friendly Neighbour 07:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Small Text

Origins of Goths

I think the article is well writen and a huge work. It represents one angle on the Gothic migration which describes the migration from Goths from Scanza down the vistula and eventually ends up settled at the eastern Balkans as a treaty with Emperor Valens in 376.

What I think most people are questioning about this article is that this theory of migration is under criticism from alot of sides and the archeological founds does not prove that this migration has existed but neither do they deny it. The current research on the field do question this and what they emphasize is that a new research is to be done without having "getica" as a valid source because its simply too unrealiable. The problem is we know that there are alot of nonesense in "getica" like reports of romans at the battle of troy and Amazons. This damage the value of the "getica" because we know some parts of its are deliberatly lies and some parts of it "might" be true. But have do way to seperate the lies from the truths in getica without speculating.

To mention some of the writers which I have studied some reject and other agrees with this "long migration of the goths".

Wolfram, Wenskus, Walther Pohl Argues for the migration and origin of the Goths in Scandinavia. And they all use Getica to do this. Heather do no think highly of Getica. But he do belive that the Migration can be proved from studying the Archeological founds down the Vistula.

Goffart, Guy Hallsall and Patrick Armory argues for a new research needs to be done and they all deny that "getica" can be used as source. Further more they question the Archeological data available. As mentioned in the Article the Wielbark and cernjachov cultures. Guy Halsall concludes that the evidence is simply not there to prove the Migration and the link between the Wielbark and cernjachov as a migration from Scanza down to the east balkans

"In short no Prima facie archaelogical evidence exist of a migration up the vistula to the black sea shores"

— Halsall, Guy (1999, "Review article. Movers and shakers: the barbarians and the fall of Rome. Early medieval europe 8

Walter Goffart disagrees with Wolframs ideas of the migration and goths on many points. He deny the idea of "core of traditions" and the thought the the Goths could have originated in Scandinavia and move all the way down the vistula as "stämme". He reject the entire notion of a gothic history and that we cannot say anything about the goths untill 376, everything before is pure imagination. To quote Goffart about the migration of goths:

"Two very distinct courses are available to us, depending on the quality of evidence and the scale of conjecture and combination we are willing to tolerate. Those very strict in the selection and handling of sources will refuse to go farther afield than to the lands bordering tge Roman Empire in the fourth century A.D. Those however, Who welcome a wider range of documentation and liberally resort to hypothesis and speculation will find it possible and even desirable to reach as far out in space as Scandinavia and as far back in time as before the Christian era. This major difference of approach to the period of Barbarian invasions deserves to be spelled out and eloborated because little is said about it outside German acedemic scene"

— Goffart, Walter (1980), Barbarians and romans A.D. 418-584: The techniques for accomodation

So in short. As to whether or not the Goths origined from Scandinavia is questionable. It cant be denied but neither confirmed. The argumentation of the field of scientist are still going strong and what most want is a new research with the starting point "That no barbarian migration existed unless it can be proven from archeological founds" Problem with todays archeological founds is that they are made with "getica" in the back of the head. So you find what you want to find. The artefacts from the Wielbark area in Cernajachov are seen as proof of the migration but the founds of Cernjachov artefacts in the Wielbark area is seen as a sign of trade. But however, cant it be possible that the wielbark artefacts in Cernjachov are sign of trades and not proof of the migration? The vistuale was one of the biggest trading areas anyhow.

As to the article, I dont think its neccesary to change anything, perhaps add a section about the ongoing discussion and the Heavy critisicm of Getica and the current archealogical findings. But again it depends what View you have on the barbarian migration. I like how the article stress that story is taken from Jordannes so people can decide wether they see Getica as a reliant source.

Ive not created a profile but Im a danish history student at the university of Copenhagen. My course is exactly about this subject and my Teacher is "Arne Søbe Christensen" who has been mentioned aswell and who self question wether the goths originated in Scandinavia. Keep up the good work and the discussion :)

Further reading I recommend: Noble, Thomas (2006) From roman provinces to medieval kingdoms" . Its a collection of different articles from Wolfram to goffart about the Goths. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.164.83.90 (talk) 21:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

This is an excellent comment - thanks. Another author that disagrees with the standard "out of Scandinavia" theory is Michael Kulikowski in his latest 2006 book Rome's Gothic Wars - there seems to be a lot of very good reasons to doubt the evidence of a Scandinavian origin. This article could be a historiography article, similar to Decline of the Roman Empire, which lists various points of view. -- Stbalbach 14:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It will inevitably turn into such an article in the long run. Considering how unlikely some find the crossing of the Baltic sea, it is amazing how little credit is given to the sea-faring abilities of Iron Age Scandinavians ;-).--Berig 08:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

According to Andrzej Kokowski "Archäologie der Goten" (1999) they probably used the same route as all other migrations across the Baltic: Scania <-> Bornholm <-> Middle Pomerania which means one day sailing only on both sides of Bornholm. This would mean that landing in the mouth of Vistula could be a mistake (or oversimplification) of Jordanes. The interesting thing is that only one of many burial sites with stone rings - of typical Scandinavian provenience - was found close to the sea shore. And it is not in the vicinity of Vistula mouth but close to the mouth of Słupia (Stolpe) which is directly downwind from... Bornholm with the prevailing north-western winds (see this Google Map with the sole coastal stone ring site marked). All the other stone rings are in the areas in the lake district which was not inhabited for some time before the Scandinavian arrival. This is why Kokowski believes that the new tribe from Scandinavia (Goths) was invited by the tribes (possibly earlier immigrants related to the new arrivals) living around Vistula moth and Baltic shore, (Gepides ?) to create a buffer zone between them and the Przeworsk culture (most probably Vandals and their allies). It would seem they moved in by the shortest route and Vistula mouth became important only later when they evacuated the lake district to invade territories along both the Bug rivers joining Baltic and Black Sea areas (BTW the name Bug is probably of Vandal origin) which could explain the Jordanes narrative. So much for the non-Scandinavian origin. Friendly Neighbour 08:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, maybe there should be a section on why the crossing of the Baltic sea is felt to be so unlikely by some. The grounds for scepticism should be thoroughly explained, because I am very curious about them myself. The only reason that I know of, so far, is that we should be sceptical of the Getica, which is not a very convincing argument, IMHO. It is like saying "either this source tells the truth or it lies, and since it is not entirely reliable, it probably lies", which is a very strong claim.--Berig 09:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all wanna thank the one putting my post in the right place and Im the same danish student here (need to make and account). I think what most people find dangerous about "getica" is its build around alot of arguments who jordannes couldnt have possible known. To present some of the ones I read about. First of all its the entire argumentation by modern scholars who think highly of getica particular Wolfram, who question the idea that a "stämme" bound by ties of blood originates(my english really lacks a better description, I mean a "volk" with genetic and blood bounds) from scandinavic and move too the balkans. But what wolfram do believe in is that the "nuclei of tradition" or an Elite migrating all the way down to the black sea and eventually ending up as we all know inside the roman empire. This is what Wolfram believes. None believes that the Goths all are a blond bunch of scandinavians migrating in a tight genetic community with the exception of perhaps the nazis under 2. world war. Wolfram thinks they are a mixture of other people joining up amongst the migration but the "core" of the tribe is made from Scandinavic kings. This is really interesting. We all know Jordannes in no possible way could have Facts about this because hes writing somewhere in the 550s so Jordannes must have the knowledge af the Amali ( the kings of goths) from someone. And this is where many scholars believes that Jordannes is rewritting everything from Cassiodorus "gothic history" which is lost. Cassiodorus is meant to be instructed by Theoderic to write a gothic history. Exploring the genealogy of the amali by cassiodurus must have excisted on Sagas and spoken legends of prehestoric kings of the amali. So what are the odds that Theoderic can actually remember his royal line sofar befind as the migration from scandinavic? Its a shame I dont have the list but we have seen and discussed it a couble of times with "arne søbe christensen" and the line usually break after 3-4 steps backwards were kings are mentioned who we simply have no knowledge about at all. So at some point the line might possible have been made up by either Theoderic or Cassiodorus. So the entire Gothic legendary story is a best uncertain - But I need to stress that it can be true ofcourse!

Looking at reasons for why the gothic history is written brings sceptives to some other thoughts. Armory and Goffart both interpretate Jordannes Getica as a story to present the romans for a gothic people just as proud as the romans. The roman legacy leads back to troy, so what jordannes and possible ( we have no idea since the work is lost ) Cassiodorus wanted to do was to present a new gothic tribe who goes as far back in time as the roman people which makes the Goths a respectable tribe. Problem is they cant mention the Gothic history originated at troy, because the Greek literature already have written alot about that event. So too create a new legendary story Scandinavian gives completely free bounds to write whatever possible you want about the distant past making the goths just as old, perhaps even older, than the romans and thereby respected. When jordannes is writing in 550 is the period where Justinian and the eastern roman empire is trying to reconquer the "lost" west. What Goffart and Armory does is suggest that Getica is not a historically correct story but its trying to convice the romans that they do not fear the Goths because there distant past is just as splendid as the romans. They are not just "mere" barbarians.

As to the archealogy. There are little doubt that the Cernjachov culture is connected with the Goths we seen enter the roman empire in 376. The wielbark culture is often linked with parts of scandinavia aswell. The problem is there are no evidence between the Wielbark and Cernjachov culture which proves the migration. To put in another quote from Guy Halsall

"A link between the between the Gernajachov culture and the fourth century gothic polities seems certain; Connecting this culture with the Wielbark and thus a gothic migration from the baltic is trickier" Halsall, guy : (1999)

So the discussion is not about what the Wielbark culture is really combosed of, Might have been some scandinavic tribes, might havent. The discussion is if the link is there between the Wielbark and cernjachov proving some sort of migration. Some find a link, other do not. The most heavy criticism is as I mentioned before is its not possible to prove wether artefacts from Wielbark in cernjachov is there because of trade or migration as its not possible to prove wether artefacts in Wielbark from Cernjachov is trade or migration. As much as I find archealogy intersting the problem is with todays technology its not really possible to say alot. Thats why many archealogys have the notion of the migration from Getica and then find in the ground artefacts who supports this migration and everything who rejects it are seen as sign of trades, because the migration is documented in the Getica right so why not make it true? (Irony, might sounds harsh and hope no archealogist are offended but it is a real criticism on todays finding. I have the utmost respect from archealogist its one of the more Secure ways of documenting the past :)).

this leads to more question. First why would the Scandinavic people even want to migrate? Ive heard theories from overpopulation, In search of better farming grounds and the idea of a "Wanderstämme" which wolfram apply. To question some of them, we often hear about a close density of settlements in the Wielbark area which could suggest overpopulation, but again we also know those settlements are small and shortlived which rejects the idea of overpopulation. The goths in search of farming grounds, again we need to question why the migration happens as it does. If they were in search of farming grounds why do they wait so long with the migration. secondly we know that when the Goths enters the roman empire in 376, that some goths stay behind. Why do these stay behind if they are in search of farming lands? Wolframs "wänderstamme" theory is hard to deny but also hard to confirm. That some tribes wander because they are "born"(lack of better word) to it.

Finally you can critisize the entier idea about the migration by the the idea thats its too much based on the need to find the "coherent" history. I mean, you know the viking migratied south so why not the goths? Same with the huns. You know the mongols invated europe so why not project the Huns back to the same starting point as the mongols.

In the end we have to theorys to make this very long post short.

1: The migration from scandinavic or atleast the Wielbark area.

2: The idea that the Goths origins in the Cernjachov area somewhere in the East balkans and always have lived here before they enter the Roman empire. Perhaps because they are pushed by the huns? In the end we have no clue.

The first theory is alot more exiting and it does say alot more, which is exactly the problem about the second theory, that it actually says very little and we have no knowledge about this. People want interesting storys thats why I think the first theory is so widely backup same with the Barbarian invasion theory causing the collapse of rome. And In the end I think there is nothing wrong with having an article like this about the goths, after all Getica is a source whatever way we twist and turn the facts and the chance of it being true are there. Its mainly new research we are talking about here so no need to change to article untill we are more sure about what really went on if we ever will be. It still is a very good article and none can infute it as being untrue. I wouldnt mind though if someone wrote another part with the ongoing discussion but for me it arent vital because the research still is very new and rather wait to its discussed more before adding it and half depated trough possition.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.164.83.90 (talk • contribs).

You should get yourself an account and start contributing to the articles. First of all - the devil is in the details. You raise many questions that together show how hard studies in humanistics are in general:

1. Do the Goths equate the Chernyakhov culture? Yes, most likely, but can we be 100% sure? No.
2. Do the Goths equate the Wielbark culture? Yes, probably, but can we be 100% sure? No.
3. Can we infer a connection between the Wielbark culture and the Chernyakhov culture? Here the certainty is inevitably even less certain since material objects are easily replaced during migrations. As Nordengren told me in personal communication: you don't bring all the pottery when you migrate. You can easily get new new ones of local manufacture when you arrive.
4. Is there a connection between Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture? Yes, there is, but does it prove a migration? No.

All these points bring in uncertainty about the origins of the Goths, and the more you look into the details, the more easy it is to question everything. However, what most scholars do, I guess, is to put the appearance of the Goths near the Roman borders in the context of the Germanic migrations from Northern Europe, more generally. There were probably many reasons why Scandinavians would like to migrate, since you find a similar exodus during the Viking Age.--Berig 14:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Goths in Finland?

In Finland there is a small group of cemeteries very similar to the ones Ostrogothia and in the Wielbark culture. This fact as well as numerous Germanic loan-words in Finnish have given birth to a theory of limited Gothic and/or East Scandinavian settlement or at least cultural influence in Finland. Do you think this should be mentioned in this article?--130.234.75.20 14:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Drieakko was written on Talk:Sitones that there was an early Swedish settlement 0 - 200 CE (so early that its language must have been Proto-Germanic) in South-Western Finland. It would be great if you some of you Finns could write an article on this settlement and/or earlier ones since it left both archaeological and linguistic traces.--Berig 14:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll give it a try next week.--217.112.249.156 15:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)EditUnfortunately I have to cancel my promise to write this aricle, as I have no time right now (a thesis to write...). Maybe I can take it up later.--130.234.75.164 13:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

As a curious side note, Ynglingasaga's both Finland related stories roughly date to this early period of Germanic settlements in Finland. Later, Ynglingasaga ignores Finland completely. --Drieakko 19:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

That is interesting. According to the internal chronology of the Ynglinga saga, Dag the Wise made a raid on the Goths at the time when they would still be living on the shores of the Baltic sea. A Swedish scholar named Sundquist has written a recent dissertation on Ynglingatal (Sundquist, O. "Freyr"s offspring. Rulers and religion in ancient Svea society". 2004) showing that Ynglingatal is largely based on real events. To summarize his thesis: there are so many details in Ynglingatal that are confirmed by archaeology that the tradition is very unlikely to be entirely 12th century fiction, as some saga-bashers want to make it out to be.--Berig 19:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Dag the Wise's son Agne was the one who allegedly raided Finland, possibly at the end of the 4th century. Very roughly around the same time the Germanic characteristics of the coastal Finnish population cease to exist, even though there is no evidence that it would have happened abruptly. Agne's raid in Finland is however the last mention of any relevant things happening in Finland in the first Millennium, from the Swedish point of view. Freely speculating, Ynglingasaga's Finland related stories may be remnants of interaction between the Germanic settlers in Finland and their homeland relatives. Once the settlements had lost their Germanic nature and language, there was not much activity on that front any more. --Drieakko 20:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

If the Germanic settlement is connected with Agne's raid, it could mean that the Germanic settlement disappeared because of Swedish attacks. The survivors could have merged with the Fenno-Ugric tribes dispersing the Proto-Germanic loan-words in Finnish. Speculative but not unrealistic, I guess.--Berig 20:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we can or should equate Thervingi & Greuthungi w/ Visigoths & Ostrogoths

I guess that sums up my concern. Jacob Haller 05:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your reservation. Modern scholarship has shown that this equation is ungrounded. 3rd century "Goths" are not the same peoples with the 4th century Visigoths/Ostrogoths. The connection between them was made up in the 4th-5th century. E.g. Ostrogoth kings used the Amal legacy but, actually, they didn't belong to that much older tradition. See Patric Geary, The Myth Of Nations and David S. Potter, The Roman Empire At Bay Dipa1965 (talk) 21:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Germany? Germany?!? Germany?!?!?

Okay, how do the Goths come into Wikiproject Germany? I wouldn't mind the help but aren't Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, Italy, France & Spain more relevent? Jacob Haller 15:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Hard to tell... maybe the Germany Wikiprojectists are a very curious and clever bunch of guys interested in improving as many articles as possible. They're welcome, of course. Said: Rursus (☻) 08:19, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Where they came from vs. who they were

It seems the older sections all focus on one question: where did the Goths come from? (which doesn't lend itself to clear answers anyway) and neglected several other questions: who were the Goths? how did they live? etc. (which archaeological evidence can help answer).

I've started short sections of settlement patterns & burial practices. But it seems like most of the article is devoted to perpetually-disputed Swedish-Polish connections much earlier, and very little to the 3rd century, 4th century, or after, or to descriptions of their way of life. Jacob Haller 17:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Does this actually mean anything, and if so, what?

Quoting from the language section: "Similarly, the Saxon dialects of Germany are hardly closer to Anglo-Saxon than any other West Germanic language that hasn't undergone the High German consonant shift (see Grimm's law), but the tribes themselves are definitely identical." I can't figure out what the last passage means. There are English who are not (upper) Saxon and there are (upper) Saxons who are not English, so the two groups are not identical; rather they derive certain elements of English-ness and Saxon-ness from the common origin. (The same concern applies to Gotho-Scandinavian connections as to Anglo-German ones). Jacob Haller 18:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

U5a1a & R1b1c9a

Both U5a1a & R1b1c9a haplogroups are germanic. U5a1a are Goths and R1b1c9a is Norman/Belgica/Friesian - Celtic/Germanic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.26.143.164 (talk) 02:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

Etymologically identical

I haven't encountered this syntagm so far. However, intuitively, I assume it's about words who are paired in two parallel languages in etymological evolution, not words occuring by "expected sound changes" (most words evolve by "expected sound changes" - this is how linguistics works, isn't it?). Therefore if one claims Gutar and Goths are "etymologically identical" he has to show how Goths and Gutar evolved linguistically (or to bring a scholar reference for that). Daizus 16:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Separate Gothic origins page?

Should we create one? It would provide a place to discuss Gothic origins, different models, etc. without giving undue weight on this page (and repeating the discussions on other pages). We would have three main issues (1) the origin of the Baltic Goths (and the importance of the Scandinavian connection), (2) the origin of the Black Sea Goths (and different models: mass migration, smaller migration and Gothic conquest/elite dominance, smaller migration and Gothicization (locals become Goths) and/or Dacian/Sarmationization (Goths become locals), etc.), (3) the origin of the later Visigoths and Ostrogoths. Any thoughts? Jacob Haller 00:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The origins of the Goths is one of the great history questions and has a long and rich historiography with many approaches - it easily could have its own article. -- Stbalbach 14:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

It certainly could. But it would be long and complex to write. I've been researching the question of various tribal origins for a couple of decades, and read on average 40-100 pages of scholarly material a day. I got stuck with trying to figure out the period 12-17,000BP, wherein a great deal of molecular evidence is now rewriting views on linguistic evidence (not to mention continued archaeological finds). The lack of material culture in areas later claimed to the the "origin" of Goths (meaning, the people in those areas had very few tools, no fired clay goods, etc) is problematic. Usually, when a people have an "origin," they have enough people and material to be considered "a people." This makes most anthropologists and prehistorians look to a Pontic origin (both the Y chromosome and linguistic evidence seem tantalizing - but it is a complex discussion." Certainly the sound sequence G^t is around a long time, probably longer than lund/land (which is probably 'in, 'lin in the Pontic regions). So if someone called themselves Goths around 8000BP and lived in one of the Black Lake River drainages (IIRC, the Black Sea was still freshwater at that point), that would be a viable hypothesis (they would have picked up suffixes a bit later). But which river? For that, we have to have a notion of what "pre-historic Goth" is - and it seems to be a swirling group of tribes just outside the continuous inspection of both the Greeks and the Romans. All three groups (Greeks, Romans and Goths) almost certainly share common ancestry...so where to begin and how far back to take it, would be difficult questions. But very pertinent and interesting.--LeValley 04:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

D.H. Green on the Bastarnae

Green, D.H., Language and History in the early Germanic World, pp. 164ff, identifies the Bastarnae as an East-Germanic group, and argues that some East-Germanic speakers had settled the Black Sea area as early as the 2nd Century B.C.E. Jacob Haller 02:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Thats the article Bastarnae. It's sometimes (often?) assumed, without real proofs, that they were "assimilated with" the Goths or more probably, constituting one important contingent of the Ostrogothic kingdom of early AD centuries up until the Hunn catastrophe. Said: Rursus (☻) 08:29, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Roman and Cappadocian prisoners

It's my understanding (based third-hand) that the prisoners came from Cappadocian, which was part of the Roman Empire, but also from other parts of the Roman Empire as well. Which is why the original "Roman prisoners" seemed like the best option. I'm not sure why we need to specify Cappadocian, why not just say they were "Roman", which is really the most important element in the context of the sentence. -- Stbalbach 23:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Stbalbach. The "some were Cappadocian" angle is appropriate to the Ulfilas article as well as an article on the Conversion, but really not needed in the general article on the Goths. I think the issues of persecution, conversion rate, and the supposed war between Fritigern and Athanaric are more important here. Jacob Haller 00:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes I wonder about Wikipedia

I deleted the bit that apparently needed a citation because, I believe, if something needs a citation to be considered factual, it might as well not be in the article until it's cited. Make sense? 152.23.196.162 01:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I think (contra Kulikowski) that the Vistula (Weilbark) origin is well-established, mostly because the Gothic language is so thoroughly Germanic. We have linguistics, archaeology, and Jordanes telling similar stories; I don't trust Jordanes but I trust the linguistic resemblance (same four cases, Grimm's law, etc.), the archaeological resemblance (near-complete absence of weapon burials), and, generally speaking, the expertise of the scholars involved. Jacob Haller 01:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to ask, as I always do when I hear that something is linguistically "thoroughly Germanic," what does that mean? I know all about PIE, and I know that Latin, Greek Sanskrit and Celto-Slavic show up early indeed. The shift in Grimm's law is thought to have occurred 1000B.C.E. - but it's highly likely the Goths were around before that (and underwent the shift; for whatever reason it occurred; but there is no general agreement what to call THAT language - the one that shifted...and it took some time for so many "Germanic" tribes to rise - it seems inconceivable that all those tribes appeared in between 1000 B.C.E. and 800.B.C.E. when their names start to be written down by Greeks. Indeed, the word Germanic, which is retroactively applied (because the Grimms were studying from their own present, backwards) implies things about the Goths (such as that they were from the modern nation that English speakers call Germany) is not the most academic for this purpose and may well be changing. If we are going to say the Goths are "thoroughly German" linguistically, we have to explain the difference between culture, language, genes and geography a bit better, is what I'm trying to say. And good luck with that! Someone needs to write a book and make it clear, so we can cite it. But seriously, is there any evidence that the Grimm's law shift took place before (or after) the shifters came to the Danube? --LeValley 04:44, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

"Lost tribes of Israel"

The following is unsourced and makes the article appear zany: Some would argue that the Goths had their origins in the Lost Tribes of Israel. To date there is not a substantial amount of evidence to support this theory, however, those that support the Goth's origins in the Baltics would have to acknowledge the accounts of the Lost Tribes of Israel being forcibly relocated there by Assyria. This relocation ocurred almost 1000 years before records of the Goths first surfaced, putting it in the "right" time frame. (The Lost Tribes were believed to have been relocated around 700 BC). This is just not mainstream material.--Wetman 14:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree. In earlier times, basically any European nation drew their heritage from the tribes of Israel, inventing all kinds of complicated explanations how ever that was possible. As a concept that requires an article :) but it is not meaningful to mention for individual nations any more. --Drieakko 14:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Food for thought :) The opposite to the premise may also be valid, i.e., the Tribes of Israel may have also had Gothic members.
Please bear with my convoluted hypothetical analysis. Consider that both the Hittite an Egyptian empires around the time of the exodus were multi-ethnic cosmopolitan empires who drew in professionals of many nationalities. The province of Canaan, situated between (and at times a part of) these two empires was by no means homogenous. The widowed Mitanni-Egyptian queen Nefertiti was unable to secure peace and union when the Hittite prince she was to marry was assasinated en route to Egypt, possibly at the hands of her (hypothetically) adoptive father Ay, q.v. 'Secrets of the Exodus' book.
According to that book, the tribes of Israel were composed of Judah (former priests of the Egyptian empire who had converted to monotheism under Akhenaten), and settled strategically closer to Egypt, and the 'Erev-rav' ('common people' of the empire, 'Hebrews'). The Erev-rav had comprised the various layers of the Egyptian (monotheistic [and polytheistic]) bureaucracy under Akhenaten as 'servants' in the sense of 'public servants'. These public servants were multiethnic (e.g. ancestors of the Masai 'police', Hittites, Minoans, Akkadians, descendants of the Guti etc.) and skilled. They were not killed due to differences in faith with that of the Egyptian empire, but were escorted in a civilised manner to repopulate the promised border province that the Egyptians had lost.
Later modification of the old testament during the Babylonian captivity distanced literarily the Tribes of Israel from the Egyptian rivals of the Babylonians. The crisis of the 'moving of the people' was that the border province of Canaan was not firmly under Egyptian control, and had to be reconquered by Seti I aka Joshua (son of Nun), before the people could settle there in security. This is just a possibility mind you, but one worth considering when venturing into the 'outlier' discussion about Goths and the Lost (non-Judah & -Benjamin) Tribes of Israel, who in this hypothesis are more predominantly defined by adherence to a common faith in one G-d than their ethnicity - perhaps this had something indirectly to do with their later disappearance? Gabrieli 11:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Spinning off "Origin of the Name "Goth" (*Gut-)"

Suggesting spinning off the section "Origin of the Name "Goth" (*Gut-)" as its own article, like Origin of the name Goth. Articles Geat, Gotland and Götaland could link to it, and Goths naturally as well. --Drieakko 14:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting idea but I am not sure there is enough on just the name. It is sort of marginal. We can see how the article develops. In the more than a year since you wrote, it hasn't developed, so maybe what we got is enough.Dave (talk) 01:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Possibly also include the articles on the Guti and Oium. The connection is hypothetical, but the word Guti is very similar to {*Gut-}. The Guti utterly destroyed Akkad around 2215 BC, about 120 years after the last Sag-giga ('black-headed' or 'Sumerian') king was defeated by Sargon the Great founder of the Semitic Akkadian dynasty.
Jordanes' account in the article on Oium where the Goths defeat the legendary Egyptian Pharaoh Sesostris (1291 BC - 1212 BC), apparently a compound of Ramesses I and Seti I, who strangely enough are hypothetically Moses and Joshua (son of Nun) respectively, according to the book Secrets of the Exodus: The Egyptian Origins of the Hebrew People by Messod Sabbah, Roger Sabbah, transl. Art Banta, and Lois Banta (2004).
The book also mentions Nefertiti (daughter of a priest of the Mitanni who are a tribe related to the Guti), influencing her husband Akhenaten and co-founding the monotheistic worship of the solar disk, which leads to the escorted exodus of the monotheistic Egyptians to the frontier provinces in Canaan. Gabrieli 09:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The connection is not hypothetical, but non-sensical.--217.112.249.156 15:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have to support the non-user user above. We can't just make history up as we go along, we need sources of it. None of Jordanes' Bronze-Age speculations are in any way elsewhere supported. There is no evidence that the Egyptians knew anything at all about south Russia much less campaign there. Herodotus tells us all about the snow. Egypt apparently never heard of it, and so on. Jordanes writes credibly on events near his own time, but the greater the time differential, the less gets the credibility. I got comments on this below too.Dave (talk) 01:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

A different etymological point, and one which so far no-one seems to have remarked upon, is that the derivation of Goth, namely the IE root gheud- (to pour) seems also to be the same origin as the English words "gather, together" and by extension "good". Therefore, instead of meaning "pourers of semen" (an early kenning, perhaps?), which has always struck me as unlikely, the word Goth might simply have started out as a self-referential word for "tribe".

Then again, it's just my hypothesis against everyone else's.

Nuttyskin (talk) 00:53, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Good hypothesis though (pun was unintended, but there it is). What people who invoke Grimm's law don't seem to understand is that BEFORE Griim's law, Goth was Got. (And no one knows exactly the vowel sound, except it was uh or oh so Guth/Gut; Goth/Got. The fact that some developed a lisping way of saying something (no disrespect at all intended, this is how sound shifts happen and so forth), does not mean that initially their languages were mutually unintelligible (I can still understand Cockney, Aussie or even Southern American English, more or less - sometimes with difficulty, I'll admit), does not instantly make them into a new people - nor might they have even been aware of anything more than a simple accent difference. The root Goot, then, everyone agrees, is the pre-Grimm's law root (and not Guth or Gooth). So what does it mean? It could mean Good/Us/Not Bad/Not enemy, as so many words used for "us folk" mean. Now, the world "Folk" is arguably much later (f-lk is not a well studied PIE root term like Goot). Fulk seems to mean 'younger group' or "those that are over there, not in the central place." For some, it later means "tribe" as well (and becomes both a first and last name). If it's in PIE, then of course it makes sense to check it out for cognates in Afro-Asiatic and Proto-World. So I agree with you, but it's just you and me, with our hypotheses, among so many others.--LeValley 04:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

History

The only source for early Gothic history is Jordanes' Getica (finished in 551 or around 1850), a condensation of the lost twelve-volume history of the Goths written in Italy by Cassiodorus around 530. Jordanes may not even have had the work at hand to consult from, and this early information should be treated with caution. Cassiodorus was well placed to write of Goths, for he was an essential minister of Theodoric the Great, who apparently had heard some of the Gothic songs that told of their traditional origins.

Several historians, including Peter Heather and Michael Kulikowski, argue that Jordanes' Getica presents a fictional genealogy of Theodoric and fictional history of the Goths for ancient propaganda purposes, and cast doubt on the Scandinavian origin, on the supposed royal dynasties, and on the supposed 4th-Century Kingdom of Ermaneric.

• Actually Jordanes work is known only from edition of German politician and writer Theodore Mommsen. The 'Jordanes original manuscript' has been supposedly burn in Mommsen house by his elderly handicapped ancestor. The fact that nobody presented references, to any scholar mentioning Getica before 1800, doubts the document existence in older times. Also computer (n-gram) statistical algorithm, obviously ignorant of 'Mommsen Monumental Works', recognize the major text, of 'Goth language', text as Czech or Polish. Czech Prag is the place where from the Codex Argentus was forcefully taken. All the surrounding facts point to Mommsen, who was enough good Latin writer to received Noble Price in literature.

What do you think about adding the section above ? Any obejction ?

Re: Getica can you provide sources for your addition? If you can provide good scholarly citations, it will be very relevant, though probably still controversial. Jacob Haller 01:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: Codices Argenteus et al. there are several codices and fragments. I'm not sure whether the Argenteus was found in Praha but the Speyer fragment wasn't and other Gothic texts or fragments derive from Italy and elsewhere. Although the extant Gothic texts use their own alphabet (modified from the Greek), they use the same uncial writing styles as late antique Greek and Latin texts. Jacob Haller 01:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: "Goth Language" see Gothic language for differences between Gothic and the Slavic languages. If you start reading the Gothic corpus, Grimm's Law is very noticable. Other features (the four-case system, ablaut, the two-tense system with present, preterite and the use of the verb "to will" to show the future and future perfect, etc.) also show ties with the Germanic languages. Jacob Haller 01:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and one evolved from the other (the Slavic pronunciation came first). A sound shift does not a new people make (nor even a new language). So, if you follow your own argument, the Goths are split off from proto-Slavic (which would explain a lot of toponymic similarities). Indeed, if it weren't for the few sound shifts, we would be calling Germanic languages Slavic. A very great deal was made of this in the 19th century, but this is the 21st century - and other things, such as genes, are at play as well.--LeValley 05:12, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

References

High German Connection

Can anyone tell me if Gothic was spoken in what became Germany in the Dark Ages? Its never mentionned whether it was, and Im wondering what was spoken there prior to Old High German.80.192.4.73 13:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Gothic was never widely spoken in Germany (and I am surprised that someone has put a "Germany project" banner on this page). The indigenous population of southern Germany is believed to have spoken Celtic dialects (later probably mixed with Vulgar Latin).--Berig 13:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the confusion arises because German culture was called "Gothic" by the Italians in the 15th century. This was a contemptuous nickname more or less equivalent to "barbarian". Recognizable Gothic probably didn't arise before the 2nd century, in the Ukraine, and was later spoken, of course, in Romania, former Yugoslavia, Italy, southern France and Spain, but never in Germany. That said, if you include Vandalic, which for all we know was practically identical to Gothic, Vandalic was spoken in what is now Poland and the Czech Republic, and spilled over into Austria and/or southern Germany before they moved forther west to France, Spain and Africa. So, if you like, Gothic (Vandalic) was spoken in souther Germany, if only for a decade or two in the early 400s. dab (𒁳) 18:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Encarta?

I just wondering, do we really Encarta in here? I see a attribution to it [third paragraph] John Manuel-22:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I now deleted that paragraph, about Gothic origins. /Pieter Kuiper 19:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Jordanes

A literal reading of Jordanes is definitely a fringe view. The 1490 BC crap should be removed from the intro. Jacob Haller 16:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It is crap written by Jordanes. It tells us something about Jordanes' reliability. One cannot just pick the pieces from Jordanes that one likes (the emigration myth), and discard the rest. This view of Jordanes is not fringe - read: Michael Kulikowski (2007). Rome's Gothic Wars. ISBN 0521846331. /Pieter Kuiper 16:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think Kulikowski overstates the case - I think that without Jordanes, the linguistic evidence still points to strong Germanic influences - but my point is that there are two common models, either (1) throw Jordanes out, or (2) substantially reinterpret Jordanes, yet the intro begins "The Goths (Gothic: gutans, Gutans) were an East Germanic tribe who, according to Jordanes, left Scandinavia in 1490 B.C., settled close to the mouth of the Vistula river (in present day Poland), and settled Scythia, Dacia and parts of Moesia and Asia Minor about a millennium before the common era. In the 3rd and 4th centuries, they harried the Roman Empire and later adopted Arianism (a form of Christianity). In the 5th and 6th centuries, by dividing into the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths they established powerful successor-states of the Roman Empire in Italy and on the Iberian peninsula (now Spain & Portugal)." and I would suggest trimming that to "The Goths (Gothic: gutans, Gutans) were an East Germanic tribe who, in the 3rd and 4th centuries, harried the Roman Empire and later adopted Arianism (a form of Christianity). In the 5th and 6th centuries, by dividing into the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths they established powerful successor-states of the Roman Empire in Italy and on the Iberian peninsula (now Spain & Portugal)." or some such. Jacob Haller 18:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, that intro should be uncontroversial. After that, something should be done about the "origins" section. It should be much less prominent than what it is now, and more representative of modern views. Or make it plural: "were East Germanic tribes". /Pieter Kuiper 19:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

To get a perspective one should know that there were remarkably good connections between Scandinavia and east Mediterranean in the nordic bronze age. The Kiviks grave and also similarities of symbols on rock carvings that also appears in Greece at this time, are among the strongest clues to that. Also findings of amber in Egypt, that has its origin around The Baltic Sea. So at least don't use the word crap. Mange Andersson 83.253.245.169 (talk) 04:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes, yes. Some have you have discovered the ancient source problem. All the sources are like that, you know. If the discovery of a false report makes an author totally unworthy of credibility then we have no ancient history. So, some of most authors has to be discounted, but there is a method. You look for substantiation elsewhere. Right now this article is a bit one-sided; however, I will be addressing that soon. A second approach looks for falsity to be substantiated elsewhere. But what do you do then? Well, if something is shown to be wrong, you discount it. Otherwise you have no reason not to accept it. The principle is familiar to us: innocent until proven guilty. So, until someone shows me that Jordanes is wrong then I believe everything he says. If I do not then there can be no ancient history. All the mediaeval writers write the same way: first the items of tradition or belief, then what the author knows. For the earlier times, we are pretty sure no pharohs of Egypt fought it out with the Goths in the Bronze Age. The names he cites are not Germanic. It appears as though he got some Alanic names and traditions, but that is a theory that would have to be proved. A lot of Jordanes is independently verified. We are as safe as anyone in using that. I see that this is the first acquaintance of some of you with the methods and assumptions of ancient history, or indeed history. I hope that you go further; however, this is not a new field, or an unscientific one, or a hobby field where whatever anyone says goes. Jordanes is pretty standard and so pretty much is incredibility of his earliest events. Best wishes, I hope you go further.Dave (talk) 00:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

1. Need I remind everyone that this article is about Goths? Not about mediterranian influences on bronze age Scandinavia, which as yet is to be proven to be Germanic or Finnic; nor about Jordanes' Getica;

2. Take a peak at Imre Lakatos: using auxiliary hypotheses to provisionally reject facts contradicting the main clauses of a theory is established practice in all science, but the rejections must be properly explained in a critical audience,

3. A special remark for involved Swedes: don't get stingy and fire up for nothing (against "crap"), we're speaking English here in an English speaking culture! Just calm down and forget about Sweden's troubles for a while!

Said: Rursus (☻) 08:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Gotar compared to 'gotra' of Indo-Aryan

Gotar is also like the word gotra meaning race, linege in Sanskrit and originally only referred to people of Vedic birth right.

The same is with 'Jaata' which is like the word Jute. Jaata also is like Gotra meaning birthright, linege. The word jati is related. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 10:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

If you can produce some kind of credible literature on this, feel free to do so. Until then, let's keep 'Jats' off the "See also" list, ok? Aryaman (☼) 20:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Blatantly POV

This article is so pathetically POV it's not even funny. NOTHING about music, graveyards, poetry, darkness or tips on how to dye your hair black and stuff. You think Goths are old fashioned? There is Goth websites and everything. You people are not living in the real world, we're nothing like this article anymore. Try hanging out at a Goth club for a weekend (if anyone asks you for blood, run) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.72.187 (talk) 00:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

You are looking for Goth subculture. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 02:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

To the literatur list you should add the two dissertations by Arne Søby Christensen (Cassiodur, Jordanes and the muth of the Goths (2002) and Ingemar Nordgren (2004), The Well Spring of the Goths. 87.57.197.10 (talk) 21:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)Jan Eskildsen

Great Floor Mosaic

As far as I can discover no one makes an identification of the head in the scroll of the Great Palace Mosaic with a Goth and the mosaic is not about Goths. There is nothing in it to identify any part of it as Gothic. The head is between motifs that are of hunting and is called a venator by some. Not even the chief scholar who studied it, Jobst, makes a Gothic identification. Moreover the definite dating to the time and palace of Justinian is a bit premature. The issue is not settled; proposals are still being made. So much as we would like to have a known picture of a Goth this is not it. There are plenty of representations of Gothic kings, popes, saints, ogres, what have you. Find one somewhere else.Dave (talk) 11:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Passage from etymology

The number of similarities that existed between the Gothic language and Old Gutnish, made the prominent linguist Elias Wessén consider Old Gutnish to be a form of Gothic. The most famous example is that both Gutnish and Gothic used the word lamb for both young and adult sheep. Still, some claim that Gutnish is not closer to Gothic than any other Germanic dialect.

I took this out of etymology because it has nothing at all to do with the etymology of Goth. It's not a bad summary except I've already seen parts of it in the language articles. I'm not saying it shouldn't be used but only not under etymology. If it is still around when I get to language I will consider using it.Dave (talk) 01:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

You did correct. As much as I know, Wessén's opinion is not that well supported today, because the similarities might be due to archaisms in both languages. Said: Rursus (☻) 09:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Goths v. Goth

There should at least be a disambiguation link at the top of this page for goth and perhaps a diambiguation page. Currently this term links only to this article. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:37, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Malplaced clause

In the end of the Language section, this clause:

The Gutar (Gotlanders) themselves had oral traditions of a mass migration towards southern Europe, written down in the Gutasaga. If the facts are ...snip... in the Germanic language family.

Firstly: why is this in the language section? It should be in a folklore section. Secondly: in some cases, f.ex. in the Gotlandian tell-tale "sedan träsket brann" ("since when the lake was afire", meaning "since far-far ago") regarding Fardume Träsk (the sole important lake on Gotland), the folklore have since been attested by the archeological remains of burned buildings built over the lake on pileworks, but folklore as such is a weak argument in the Gotlandian case, since the Guta Saga could as well have collected its stories from the history of the Langobards who allegedly copycated their sagacious history from the Goths, so: do we actually need that paragraph? Said: Rursus (☻) 09:19, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I solved (?) this by moving it to Symbolic legacy, where I think (IMHO) it is better suited. Said: Rursus (☻) 09:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Comments

An anonymous contributor, apparently from Lithuania, had many inline comments about this article which can be seen in this diff. FreplySpang 01:07, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Wolfram

Seems to me Wolfram makes three main points about the the Goths. 1- The grave goods did not include weapons. Burial customs should be in the archeology section. But I don't have an archeological source just History of the Goths. 2- The Kingship was stronger than in most other tribes. 3- They were inclusive; that is you could join the tribe, you didn't have to be inborn. I'm not at all certain if or where these belong in this article, but it seems that the ability to easily become a Goth was an essential element of their 1,000 year history of kingdoms in areas from the Baltic to the Black Sea and finally to the Atlantic and Mediterranean.Nitpyck (talk) 19:25, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

---

Map showing Ulmerugi-Ulmigeria-Culmigeria

removal. Map showing Ulmerugia or UlmegeriaMap from 1500s in ancient Prussia was removed by a user who repeatedly removes references. Observing (70.133.64.127 (talk) 16:39, 6 June 2009 (UTC))

goty=THIUDA = "ти иуда"?

Немцы - "девче" или "ти иуда"? А может всё-таки пастухи-кочевники, безъязыкие?

-Deutsche: "девче" : DEVA "мариша", teuton=тевтон. 1188-1241

-THIUDA: готическое слово"tHiuda" от которого немцы ведут своё самоназвание означает "ти иуда". Потому-что раньше слова писали слитно из-за экономии бумаги, а буква "Н" означала также гласную, либо украинское "и", либо украинское "ї", либо словянскую букву "ять". z. B. de Kooplüde vun de düdesche Hanse.

-пастухи-кочевники, безъязыкие: νέμω, νέμο, νέμεται, немые 6) пасти скот, заниматься скотоводством ex. (ν. τε καὴ ἀροῦν Plat.) οἱ νέμοντες Xen. — пастухи 7) пасти ex. (κτήνη Plat.; τέν δάμαλιν Luc.) тж. med. использовать в качестве пастбища ex. (τὰ ὄρη Xen.) τὸ ὄρος νέμεται αἰξί Xen. — на горе пасутся козы; νέμεσθαι ἐπὴ τῇ κρήνῃ Hom. — пастись у источника

немец Vasmer: Ошибочна также гипотеза о первонач. знач. «кочевник» и родстве с греч. νέμω «пасусь», νομή «пастбище», νομάς «кочевник», νέμος «лес», лат. nemus, -oris «роща». —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.193.107.108 (talk) 10:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Scythian Goths

The Scythian Goths is a strange definition, maybe is useful to modify this? CristianChirita (talk) in order to show that anciet sources used the therm Scythian show a geographic area.CristianChirita (talk) 06:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Fritigern

Are there any recent scholarly works which substantiate the claim that Fritigern was a king? Kulikowski avoids saying one way of the other. Not all major Gothic leaders of the period were kings. Marja Erwin (talk) 16:11, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I believe that Kulikowski has an opinion about that(not regarding the Fritigern in particulary,but as a general observation), regarding the titles. As far I remember he use the judes, and ...It is in the book :) As an personal observation,( Please keep in mind that I'm not having any reference) till the late medieval period the valachian rules in the area ocupied by the goths in late antiquity were named judes.CristianChirita (talk) 06:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Archaeological records for Goths on the Roman Borders

I removed this section since it largely duplicates the corresponding section under Migration. The quote from Madgearu has some interesting information, but as it stands it is poorly translated and not well integrated into the article. Long quotes like this should be paraphrased and tied into the article, not dumped in verbatim as quotes. -- Elphion (talk) 18:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I see your point. Undoubtfull the roman limes are within Cernijakov culture. I can't with Ceriniakov unde the migration, because the migration is contested by some hystorians like Kulicowski. The ideea that all the acheological research was biased by Jordanes make sense.Considering the we will never know the real truth, some doubts must exist on the migration theory.CristianChirita (talk) 20:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd like suggestions on the division into periods. We could do something like Baltic Sea (including the Weilbark Culture) / Black Sea (including the claimed migration, the Chernyakhov Culture, and the Goths on the Roman Borders) or we could use centuries, with some overlap. Marja Erwin (talk) 17:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest something like Baltic Sea, Archaeological remains from the Black Sea, and Historical accounts from Greeks and Romans (or Historical accounts of conflict with Greeks and Romans). -- Elphion (talk) 18:25, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Sources

Why does this list sources with passing mentions of the Goths, lost sources (Cassiodorus' history), fraudulent sources (the Historia Augusta) and sources with no connection to the Goths? I have taken the liberty of cutting Arrian's "Order of Battle Against the Alans" from the list. Marja Erwin (talk) 14:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

They are no more fraudulent sources, then Jordanes, which is based on a lost history, and even lost Cassiodorus is mentioned by others, you have right about Arrian, it was a source used by Ammianus as an inspiration source, still regarding the Adamclisi Metope I belive that the germanic tribes in the first century were similar with the germanic tribes from second century.CristianChirita (talk)

Could someone point out to me where to find Ambrose's reference to Athanaric's royal titles in De spiritu sancto? Paragraph 15 of this edition seems to contain nothing of the sort. Iblardi (talk) 22:11, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it's paragraph 17 of that version - iudex is interpreted as a translation of Athanaric's title. It was paragraph 15 of the version I checked earlier today. Marja Erwin (talk) 03:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

"Postea vero quam fidei exsules abdicavit, hostem ipsum iudicem regum, quem semper timere consueverat, deditum vidit, supplicem recepit, morientem obruit, sepultum possidet. Quantos ergo et Constantinopoli, quantos postremo toto hodie in orbe mundasti!" I think that's the passage in question. Marja Erwin (talk) 03:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Gothic groups

I suggest someone read Heather in particular about the formation of Gothic groups, which is not much dealt with in this article. Ie the Tervingi and Greuthingi were 3rd century groups, amongst others not mentioned. In the 5th century, several groups existed. Only later did the Visigoth and Ostrogoth 'supergroups' emerge after the turmoil and political re-orientation in the post-Hunnic era. 121.209.233.173 (talk) 10:12, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting (and major) point.--LeValley 05:14, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Questions

If you accept the theory that the Goths originaly lived on the coast of the Baltic sea is it not safe to asume that they;

1. Had regular contact with the people of southern Sweden, who lived only a couple of days journey away by boat and who probably had incentive to trade with their southern neighbors?

2. If they had regular contact with each other and used the same name to describe themselves (or a simular name), then is it not likely that they considered themselves to be the same people?

I think that to much focus in the article and in this discussion has been put on where the Goths originated from. I mean where do the French originate from? Where do the Russians orginated from? Wouldn't it be more relevant to ask- did the Goths consider themselves to be the same as the people of southern Sweden and there maybe Jordanes can give some answeres.

FP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.209.186.173 (talk) 04:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Gutans

please stop restoring the "Gothic: Gutans" without attestation. Least of all in Gothic Unicode. It suggests that the name is actually recorded in Gothic, or even in Gothic script. This is not the case. Feel free to explain "Gothic *Gutans, reconstructed from such and such evidence by this and that author (year)(page)". Please try to remember we are an encyclopedia, not a Unicode test page. --dab (𒁳) 13:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Pietroassa ring: gutaniowihailags often interpreted as "holy (is) the worship place of the Goths". The early form used by the Goths themselves was prob * gutanos. Strabo mentions "Goutones", Plinius "Gutones", Tacitus "Got(h)ones", Ptolemy (some of them) "Gythones". The gotlandians use the derived form Gutna alþing for their tings. I would guess * gutans was singular, and * gutanos plural. Aside from that, there aren't many alternative options. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 13:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Or better, see Ring_of_Pietroassa#Reconstruction_and_interpretation. The name "gutans" is simply trivially known for us who know Gothic, but of course such a name needs attestations, citations to reliable secondary sources. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 13:42, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect (comment moved from top of page)

This article is full of errors and presents old and mostly outdated academic views. The arcticle even gives the impression that the authors seek to foster a kind of Swedish nationalism (so called Swedish Gothicsism). With the actual known history of the Goths this article has very little to do. This article is beyond repair and needs to be re-written in a balanced and academically sound manner.

The best source to base a new article on the Goths on is Michael Kulikowski's "Rome's Gothic Wars", which, despite its narrow title, deals with the entire known history of the Goths. G.H., historian of late antiquity and early medieval history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.134.254.25 (talk) 10:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Definitely this article is heavyily slanted toward 'traditionalist' explanations which have been extensively critiqued by Gofart and Kulilowsky; and needs some serious scholarly attention. Nevertheless, even tho one might aree with nwer interpretations, all sides do need to be presented Hxseek (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Mainstream scholarship is not a citation

"Mainstream scholarship" (as in textbooks published by academic presses and textbooks published for university use) do NOT agree that G^t/G^Θ comes from Sweden! Quite the opposite. Since the early 19th century, linguists have proposed all manner of names for the pre-PIE (now usually just called PIE, as it's being pushed back in time well before 8000BP), such as Nostratic. But the sound sequence was already there and the toponyms of Sweden follow far more general rules than just Scandinavian or Germanic rules.--LeValley 03:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Legacy of the Goths? Removed entries

Modern cultural Goth subculture

[[:File:Asterixcover-asterix and the goths.jpg|thumb|right|Asterix and the Goths by Rene Goscinny depicted the Goths (portrayed as Germans) as militaristic barbarians.]]

The meaning of what Goths represented or stood for is various among societies. The Goths are perceived to be both barbaric in appearance but shown intelligence to overcome a great deal of struggle and adversity, and Goths were renowned a class of skilled warriors in the Western Roman Empire and the Dark Ages of Europe. The term "Gothic" came to mean dark, macabre, morbid and depressing in Western Europe.

In modern times, the "Goths" are more known as a subculture developed by teenagers in the western world in the 1980s and 90's. Their characteristics of Goth subculture involved the formation of social cliques among each other, the choice of gothic fashion: dress is dark macabre clothing styles, applied face "corpse paint" makeup and dyed black hair, body piercing, some spoke of a marked fascination in death and depressing topics (though a stereotype) and avid fanfare in heavy metal (esp. black metal and death metal) rock music songs or bands. It is unclear whether the "Goth" namesake is linked with knowledge in history about the Goths of ancient times unrelated to the cultural trend in the 1990s and 2000s, thus the meaning of Gothic is interpreted differently in the 21st century.

Gothic Ancestry and the Chilean Race myth

In the South American country of Chile, the Goths appeared in literary work of military officer and physician Nicolas Palacios in his 1910's novel La Raza Chilena. He wrote a national mythology on the origin of the Chilean people, as descendants of "non-Latinized" (Visi)Goths in Spain, a martial race from Gotaland (Modern day southern Sweden) arrived in northern Spain in the 4th and 5th centuries AD. Their descendants the Spanish people esp. in the La Rioja region (formerly the province of Logrono of Castille and Leon) of Spain lived apart from their "Latinized" neighbors.

Palacios explained later the Spaniards of Gothic origin settled the Southern Cone of South America in the late 16th century when Chile and Argentina was a Spanish colony. They heavily intermarried with another martial race, the indigenous Mapuche to produce a mestizo Chilean race, but with (theorotic) evident Germanic characteristics, according to Palacios, found in both physiology and psychology of Chileans. His book was based on myth of Chile's racial identity relating to tales of bygone Goths of medieval Spain, but he insisted the Gothic ancestors went "unmixed" with Castilians lacked evidence to be proven a fact. 71.102.3.122 (talk) 21:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Getica is not Gothica

Because of Jordanes confusion between Getae and Gots, large parts of Getic and Dacian history were introduced in the history of some germanic populations. Some historic events are distorted following this confusion. Caracalla (in 214) received Geticus Maximus and Quasi Gothicus titles following battles with gets and goths. Also Belizarius received Geticus title after battles against gets. Iordanes history (Getica) it is impossible to be credible after all these confusions. Readder (talk) 19:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)readderReadder (talk) 19:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Goths are not Getae

Several historians, including Peter Heather, Arne Søby Christensen and Michael Kulikowski, argue that Jordanes' Getica presents a fictional genealogy of Theodoric and fictional history of the Goths for ancient propaganda purposes, and cast doubt on the Scandinavian origin, on the supposed royal dynasties, and on the supposed 4th-Century Kingdom of Ermaneric.[2][3] Readder (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)readderReadder (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Recceswinth

Is there any point in including the anachronistic, historically inacurrate image of Recceswinth, which IP 96.224.various.avatars from NYC keeps inserting? And if we do include it, should it not go with the discussion of the nobility in Spain (under "Legacy"), since its primary purpose is to glorify the latter? -- Elphion (talk) 04:02, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

It is clearly not appropriate as a lead image and I am not convinced it is more appropriate than the image of the statue of Pelagius in the legacy section, which is what it would have to replace.--SabreBD (talk) 06:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Elphion and Sabrebd. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:52, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Era Style- CE Current Era

This Wikipedia article about the Goths shows consistently dates of BC, AD : 567 AD , 1st millennium BC, 4th century BC, ca 1300- ca 300 BC, 1300 BC, 300 BC and AD 100), yet its shows one single date as 1200 CE.

I changed this to AD to conform to the style used in the article, but was reverted with the claim that scholars now use CE http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Goths&diff=524060598&oldid=524059067 .

I corrected it again and pointed out the inconsistency of that one date (1200 CE in an article of BC's and AD's).

It was changed back to CE with the comment to look up the Wikipedia article about Common Era http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Goths&diff=524094952&oldid=524089113

Well, exactly, wikipedia states

• that CE and BCE are used by some scholarly or religious writings.
• Either may be appropriate.
• Use either BC AD or BCE CE notation consistently within same article.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.206.15 (talk) 23:47, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

germanic

there is no such thing as germanic. thet's an imagination of sabbatean/frankists and vatican. you have indo-iranians(slavs) and north african gatherers in europe and thats all about diversity.212.13.65.14 (talk) 07:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Origins

Hey it is already known that the Wielbark culture is not related to the Gothic invasion. The link between "Scanza" and Black sea the Wielbark culture does not exist,because the Wielbark culture was not Gothic. Please stop speculate that Goths came from this pinky god forgotten island east of Sweden as arceologist prooved this:

However, archaeologists are wary of ascribing ethnicities to archaeological cultures, and it is considered to be an extremely difficult matter. This is reflected by the names used for the cultures, usually baptised after the towns where remains are found. The latest tendency is to doubt the equation between the Wielbark Culture and the Goths, and contemporary researchers do not believe that immigration from Scandinavia is the sole cause of the Wielbark Culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture

The real Goths came from the east, most possible Ural mountains went south to Scythia minor and Sarmatia. They came exactly in 2-3rd centuries along with Hunnic-bulgar invasion. Maybe then in 2-3rd centuries some migrated to the north.

Ugly as a Goth

In my city (northern Portugal, the Germanic early settlers were the Suebi, conquered by the Visigoths) we have an expression which is "Feio como um gode" which means "Ugly as a Goth", to mean people who are very ugly as in "That guy is ugly as a Goth". I always found this expression curious as people also use it naturally, not knowing who the Goths were, must be similar to Vandals (which has the meaning everybody knows), but as expected nothing is written about it. People here also call "gode" to round river stones. Dont know if similar expressions are found elsewhere (most notably in Spain and France) or something was written about it in medieval texts.--Pedro (talk) 22:40, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Pedro, I always heard "feio como um bode" or "ugly as a goat". I'm pretty sure this expression is much more spread across the entire country and Galiza too. Perhaps in your village people use this new version of my traditional expression. Perhaps some one said it the wrong some day and it "stuck". Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.71.87.106 (talk) 15:35, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Dubious

The root in Gdańsk & Gdynia is gъd-, used in various placenames in many Slav countries with the meaning 'wet, marshy/swampy'; see https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gda%C5%84sk#Toponimia & https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdynia#Toponimia for references. 46.186.34.99 (talk) 18:06, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Where were they settled after the Adrianople revolt?

Trying to find where this info is located in Wikipedia, it just seems to mention "They were given land in Roman territory" after the Gothic Wars, but doesn't specify where (I believe it was northern Bulgaria?). I've looked at the Goths, Visigoths, Thervingi, Gothic War, Battle of Adrianople and Alaric I pages but can't seem to find this stated anywhere (unless I'm not looking closely enough).

I know they moved around a bit but surely as terms of the peace they were given a specific area of land rather than just told to "mingle"? Harshmustard (talk) 17:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

vestrogoths

Anyone have information on who the vestrogoths were?

Rescued comment by another user from Archive

Moved

The above comment was posted in an archive by Modredd, presumably by mistake. --Rubbish computer 23:16, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but presumably this was meant for Talk:Goth subculture? It has nothing to do with the Germanic tribes, the subject of this article. -- Elphion (talk) 00:34, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Elphion: Oops. Yes. Rubbish computer 08:41, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Expand lead from overview section

The lead contains only two sentences on this rather lengthy topic. I propose to lengthen it by moving content there from the "Historical summary" section. Also perhaps add a "timeline" section. As it's a little hard to follow as it is. --Cornellier (talk) 00:20, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

A scythian heritage perhaps

Weren't Goths the same as scythians , who's homeland was to the east of caspian sea , before the current day sino - mongol inhabitants of central asia ? i don't even have to put a link in here there are multiple web sources claiming this .

Wikipedia itself suggests that every asiatic tribe has raided europe at least once : the Huns , avars , alans , Attila , mongols , etc. so Why not Scythians ? Maybe German people were their foot soldiers . It doesn't seem like the ancestors of current day german people conquered anything at all . If anything Rome conquered germans not the other way around . Isn't it because scythians were also the forefathers to modern day persians that things get political and they are not mentioned here on wikipedia ? The catholic encyclopedia is more fair in this regard . if you visit their webpage you can get better information on non-christian topics such as the scythians.

Derakh (talk) 08:36, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Gothic migration

This article could probably do with some critical notes inserted from books such as Christensen's 2002 study of the Getica, Kulikowksi's writings on Gothic origins from his Rome's Gothic Wars, and so forth. The Scandinavian-origins narrative is not nearly as uncontroversial as this article currently seems to suggest. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 09:36, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

I haven't been keeping up with my barbarian origin theories, but I was under the impression that a large number of scholars today reject the notion of migrating Germanic tribes entirely, following attacks by Walter Goffart, among others. In this reading Scandinavian orgins are given to the Goths by the Romans because its far away and makes them Barbaric and later peoples are given Scandinavian origins because it becomes a trope.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:31, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Truthfully it's probably one of the most contested issues at the moment. The most I will venture to say is that there is evidence from the Gothic language that the Gothic language community - whether that is identical with the Goths as a supposed ethnic group or not I will leave aside for now - moved around quite a bit in its prehistory. Certainly the Gothic language did not originate in the Balkan/northwestern Pontic area where the Goths first appear (leaving aside earlier uncertain references; cf. Christensen 2002) in the historical record during the third century and where the Gothic Bible translation was created. Where it did originate is problematic. The language shares both features unique to North Germanic and features only found in West-Germanic and Gothic. It features loanwords from Proto-Slavic, but also Celtic loanwords not found in any other Germanic language. Gothic prehistory is mysterious as hell. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 13:50, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I know this discussion above is some months old, but the same topic was being raised more widely and I have been modifying Germanic Peoples and going over the literature. To put it on record here, the Gothic case is not necessarily the same as some of the other ones. (Indeed one of the concerns of scholars is the lumping together of "Germanic peoples" as if they all did the same thing. Some points:

• The place where Goths live in contemporary sources was roughly the Ukraine.
• The idea that they came from the north is something we need to balance carefully: (1) In reality it comes from the much later work of Jordanes, who also mentions ancient Egypt and Amazons. (2) OTOH archaeological and linguistic evidence is consistent with the idea that they came from the direction of the Baltic sea. (3) They certainly might descend from the Gutones of the Vistula estuary, but I don't think this can be called proven. (4) That they moved to the from Sweden is I think something which comes only from Jordanes and word games. It should be attributed and not reported as a known fact.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:02, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Goths/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 21:17, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

• @Krakkos: Great to see this important article in such a good shape. First comments below, more to follow in the next days.
• inhabitants of present-day Swedish island Gotland in Baltic Sea call themselve – I'm not a native speaker, but I would add "the" before both "present-day" and "Baltic Sea".
• certainly, of course – these can be removed according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch.
• Paulus Orosius wrote – Would be helpful to introduce him (e.g., "the priest Paulus Orosius") and state when he wrote this. This will help a lot; while reading I was wondering if this was a contemporary author or a modern scholar.
• and onwards was so considerable that some[who?] – the "who" maintenance tag should be resolved if needed and removed.

• began moving south-east from their ancestral lands at the mouth of River Vistula, putting pressure on the Germanic tribes from the north and east. – I can't follow: they were moving south to put pressure on the tribes in the north?
• began moving south-east from their ancestral lands at the mouth of River Vistula – Why did they move, do we know the reason?
• In the spring of 399, Tribigild, the Gothic leader in charge of troops in Nakoleia – Hi is an ostrogoth, so why is he mentioned in the visigoth section?
• He settled the Visigoths in Gaul and Honorius' sister Galla Placidia, who had been seized during Alaric's sack of Rome – what about the sister? Is something missing here?
• Why did Alaric sac Rome? Motives would be interesting and important.
• After being driven from Gaul, Athaulf retreated into Gaul in early 415 – From Gaul to Gaul??
• Under Theodoric I the Visigoths allied with the Romans in inflicting a severe defeat – The article on that battle says the battle was somewhat inconclusive … is "severe defeat" the correct wording? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:17, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

@Krakkos: Just checking if you are still on it? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:35, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Dear Jens Lallensack. Thank you for a very helpful review. I'm still in on it. I will follow up on your recommendations very soon. Krakkos (talk) 11:44, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, and please take your time. I will complete the review in the meantime then. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 11:55, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. Feel free to do so. The lead of the article is currently too long, and i intend to shorten it. It might not be necessary to spend much time on reviewing the lead for the time being. Krakkos (talk) 12:01, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Dear Jens Lallensack, i have now amended the article in accordance with your recommendations.[11] Krakkos (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Dear Krakkos, thank you very much! Remaining comments will follow soon; the first one already below --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:17, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

• After the update, there is now a number of paragraphs that have no source at their end (the first paragraph of the "Name" section is an example). This makes it very difficult to verify the respective information, especially given the high number of sources used in the article. We have to know which sentence is based on which sources, otherwise the article will not be verifiable as required by the Good Article criteria, and needs fixing. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:17, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

• Dear Jens Lallensack, i have now made an attempt at improving the sourcing of the article.[12] Krakkos (talk) 22:37, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Just to register here: related discussions relevant to the GA review, [13], [14], [15] .--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:46, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Status query

Jens Lallensack, Krakkos, where does this review stand? It's been over a month since anything was posted to this page, and it would be nice to get things moving again. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:49, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Another editor joined after the review has started, but cooperation between the two didn't go well and now both are blocked from editing the article without clear consensus on the talk page, which makes it difficult to continue the review. But yes, I have to close it now, though I encourage the author to call me back once the dispute is resolved and the article is nominated again, as I am still available for continuing this review. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:12, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Etymology section: verification issue

The current etymology section cites Wolfram 1990 p.21, where he does mention the theory Wikipedia is currently giving in its own voice. However, it mentions other options, and specifically says that to pick one as a winner would be arbitrary. A quick summary of Wolfram would be that we do not know for sure what the etymology is.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:23, 4 February 2020 (UTC) @Krakkos: This is still a clear verification failure. There are clearly several etymology proposals, and WP should not be picking a winner.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:54, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Goths = Gutones and similar assumptions

• The lead jumps straight into making a simple equation between the Gutones in Tacitus, living on the Vistula, and the Goths in the Ukraine centuries later. This simple equation is not how our better sources explain it, and in fact this is uncertain.
• The etymology section has apparently been written to back this up with mention of a Gutone-like form on an inscription. You only need to read the WP article to see that this inscription is also uncertain.
• Missing the uncertainty also means missing some of the colour. Our better sources describe the Goths as a mixed people. We also seem to be missing the whole concept of "Gothic peoples" which existed (i.e. Goths plus similar peoples, some of whom probably did not speak Germanic languages).
• Another result of simplification is that lead treats the Visi/Ostro distinction as something which already existed in the Ukraine or even Poland. Did it?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:20, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you that this is a bit of a confused article, could benefit from a thorough and critical rewrite. Small note though regarding the second bullet point - it is important to note that the part of the Pietroassa inscription that is uncertain is not really the gutan- part, it's mainly the -iowi- part hailag, too, is fairly unambiguous). The link with gutthiuda is also not particularly problematic. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 17:55, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

But still, it seems at least one proposal disagrees? Do do this well we ideally need sources which not only give proposals (there might be hundreds) but which also help explain what the current consensus or majority opinion in. Not always possible, but if you know of any...--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:07, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Here is what Peter Heather says about one issue in this article (Heather, Peter (2012). Empires and Barbarians: The Fall of Rome and the Birth of Europe, page 199):--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:26, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

the immigrants had come across the Danube in two separate groups: Tervingi and Greuthungi. This distinction disappeared, in my view, by 395, in another by 408. But the date is a matter of detail. North of the Danube, the Greuthungi and Tervingi had been entirely separate political entities. Within a generation of crossing the Danube, the distinction disappeared.

Another example of the pattern of misleading/hidden content in this article is the way in which the Hlöðskviða is treated as straightforward history in this article, and fitted together with Ammianus Marcellinus.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:46, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Krakkos: for looking at this, but to be clear, one concern here is that I would understand it the events in the saga can not simply be dated and connected to a single real conflict? That is what the inclusion of this material in the section where it now is, would seem to imply though?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:35, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm looking into it. But it will take some time. Krakkos (talk) 16:36, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Concerning origins myths, they should of course be mentioned. But apart from Jordanes and his Gutones story there were also other parts of Jordanes. And there were also Procopius and Isidor of Seville, who had things to say about the origins of the Goths.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:51, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Concerning origins narratives, Christensen, cited below, has a very detailed analysis.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:15, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Our foremost sources on the Goths, Herwig Wolfram and Peter Heather, consider the Gutones ancestral to the Goths.[16][17] In his 2018 entry on the Goths in The Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity, Heather classifies the Goths as a "Germanic tribe".[18] Divisions among the Goths are first attested in the 3rd century AD, and this article reflects this. The article doesn't discusses divisions into Visigoths and Ostrogoths until after the Hunnic invasion in the late 4th century, which is in accordance with reliable sources such as Heather. Krakkos (talk) 13:37, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Goths and Gutones again

@Krakkos: The new second sentence still states as a simple fact, in effect, that the Goths were the Gutones, with no mention of controversy:

They are first documented by Roman writers in the 1st century AD as living along the lower Vistula

This is obviously referring to the Goths=Gutones theory. (There is a citation to Heather, but with no page number, and also the sentence has two parts. In any case I think Heather and Wolfram are indeed authors who accept this theory to some extent, even if they also might not agree with the wording we have.) Most write-ups of this theory are more cautious than Heather and Wolfram, but both of them are arguably also more cautious than our sentence. Examples of stronger criticism of this theory, which are certainly not rare or limited to any small group of scholars:

• Rübekeil, Ludwig (2002), "Scandinavia in the light of ancient tradition", in Bandle (ed.), The Nordic Languages, vol. 1, pp. 594–604
  • Rübekeil also gives a different etymology than WP.
• Christensen, Arne Søby (2002). Cassiodorus, Jordanes and the History of the Goths: Studies in a Migration Myth.
  • Long and positive review by Ian Wood which goes into many details: http://www.dendanskehistoriskeforening.dk//pdf_histtid/103_2/465.pdf

I think the wording should therefore be modified.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:48, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I have modified the lead.[19] However, Peter Heather and Herwig Wolfram are certainly more reliable sources on the Goths than Rübekeil and Christensen. In his 2018 article on the Goths for The Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity, Heather mentions no doubts about the equation between the Goths and Gutones.[20]

I don't see how you can say Heather and Wolfram somehow trump Rübekeil and Christensen on this particular topic? Both Heather and Wolfram on this topic defer to the field, and talk about what "philologists" etc, think. Rübekeil and Christensen are people who get cited for specialist works on it (and there are not many) so the type of people the other two are deferring to.

Anyway, even if they were "better", it would make no difference: WP sourcing is not "winner take all" and we must NOT pick winners, when we know there is significant controversy.

Concerning the Oxford book, as mentioned many times tertiary works are generally not the best sources for resolving how to write up a subject where there is a controversy - especially, of course, when they are the type which does not mention controversies, because, to say it again, on WP we MUST report controversies. (In contrast, some of the German resources on topics like this give very detailed literature reviews concerning all the latest debates.)

In summary, the WP norms on this type of issue are really indisputable.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:57, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

This issue is a question of WP:DUE. As Jimbo Wales has phrased it, due weight is best determined through references from "commonly accepted reference texts". The highest-quality reference text on the Goths is Peter Heather's article on them in the 2018 edition of the The Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity. No high-quality reference texts mention any doubts about the connection between the Gutones and Goths, and such doubts should therefore not be given much weight in the lead. Krakkos (talk) 14:06, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Supposed evidence from the Sagas

It seems concerning that WP is not only stating as a simple fact that the Goths appear in Norse Gutasaga, which is not clear at all, but that this is being given as the FIRST bit of evidence concerning the origins of the Goths, before Graeco-Roman literature and archaeology?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:05, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

The relevance of the Gutasaga to the origins of the Goths is mentioned by Herwig Wolfram. I have moved the section in question down below those on archaeological, literary and genetic evidence.[21] Krakkos (talk) 13:27, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I would say "possible relevance" but indeed I am not suggesting removing all mention, just re-sequencing it. I realize you are working on these sections bit by bit anyway, and I am making notes here on that basis. (I have edited one sub-section about classical authors you did not get to yet and added more sources to it, etc. Hopefully that will help integrate it into whatever structure you come up with. Actually I am not sure if the classical authors should be before or after Jordanes and the other origo writers. Readers need to consider them together in a sense?)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:00, 25 February 2020 (UTC)