Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. 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Current disputes

Talk:Azerbaijan

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Interfase on 18:34, 17 February 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Azerbaijan (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Interfase (talk · contribs)
• Divot (talk · contribs)
• Kreodonta (talk · contribs)
• Taron Saharyan (talk · contribs)
• Grandmaster (talk · contribs)
• Hablabar (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

In my opinion, the map "Russia at the Caucasus" of 1847 year with the term "Azerbaijan" could be used in the article as it describes the using of this term in history. But user Divot is against of it. He thinks that there is some error on the map, but there are no sources claiming that. It is just Divot's own opinion. There are enough sources saying that the term "Azerbaijan" was used for the lands on the north of Araks river as it's shown on the map.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

I'd like an outsider to judge matters from the viewpoint of Wikipedia policies and conventions: are separate articles warranted, or not? The conclusion of mediator will stop edit warring on this issue.

Summary of dispute by Divot

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The map is wrong, Details on TP

Moreover, I asked a well-known historian Bournoutian, his answer: "The map is wrong. The word Azerbijan is written in another font and script--compare it to Georgia. It is impossible to put Erevan and Lake Sevan in the so-called Azerbijan in 1847-- since it was until 1840 the Armenian Province and after that the Erevan Guberniia.". Divot (talk) 20:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Moderator removed the map from the Russian Wikipedia

User Kreodonta three times returns the map ([1], [2], [3]) without a word on a talk page. Divot (talk) 21:09, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Kreodonta

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Taron Saharyan

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Grandmaster

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I believe the map is a historical source, and such could be used in the article to illustrate the relevant chapter. Grandmaster 18:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Hablabar

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

• Arguments by User:Divot are sound and solid, nearly perfect. Interfase, please avoid POV pushing. Hablabar (talk) 02:41, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
• Under a closer inspection I came to the opinion that this "map" is a Photoshop-ed fabrication: different fonts, etc. Hablabar (talk) 00:44, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Azerbaijan discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Coordinator's note: This case has been relisted due to its premature archiving due to having been originally manually listed on February 12. I've readjusted the "do not archive until" date to reflect the original listing date, plus a day or two to allow for it having been off the list. I had added Kreodonta and Taron Saharyan to the original listing because at the time this was first listed they had not been involved in the discussion but had been very active in the edit war at the archive page; they've not edited since February 12, however, so it may be possible for a DRN volunteer to achieve a mediated result without their participation. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:52, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I put notices and reminders on the talk pages of all participants. Let's see who comes to the negotiation table :-) -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

24 hour closing notice: The dispute on this has apparently died away at the article for the moment, but it's also a perennial dispute which keeps coming back up and then dying out. Frankly, I rather suspect that this will continue until there is a RFC at the article talk page which successfully attracts enough editors to create a clear consensus one way or the other. If no such RFC is filed or if it ends in a weak or no consensus, this will probably just keep recycling in and out. If most everyone who is currently involved in the dispute does not show up here by 17:00 UTC on 20 February 2014, I'm going to close this as futile. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:46, 19 February 2014 (UTC) I'm withdrawing the 24-hour closing notice now that Grandmaster has joined here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:06, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I didn't changed my mind. Divot's arguments are not reliable. He claims that the map is wrong. But it is just his own opinion. There are a lot of sources saying that the term "Azerbaijan" was used also for the lands on the northern part of Araks river. In the map we can see it clearly. Divot refers to Bournoutians words, but they are not published in reliable sources. The arguments of Bournoutian are not logical and not reliable. So there are no any proofs that the map is wrong. Divot and other users want to remove this map just because they don't like it. This issue needs solution. --Interfase (talk) 20:37, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Three points:

• I don't think the other three editors are essential to this discussion and am opening it for discussion.
• I have to say, however, that I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out either the benefit of or the objections to this map. It's being inserted as part of the Etymology section of the article. Pursuant to the Pertinence and encyclopedic nature section of Wikipedia's images rule:

  Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic. ... Images are primarily meant to inform readers by providing visual information. Consequently, images should look like what they are meant to illustrate, even if they are not provably authentic images.

  So that sets the ground rules for the use of this image. Divot objects to the image on the basis that it's inaccurate, but that objection is only meaningful under that rule if the image is inaccurate for the purpose that it is "significantly and directly related" to in the content of the Etymology section (unless, of course, it's just being used as a general image for the article and just happens to be in the Etymology section, but I don't believe that to be the case). And I'll be darned if I can figure out what significant and direct relation it has to the Etymology material. Can someone enlighten me?
• The fact that the image has been used or not used on any language Wikipedia other than en-Wikipedia is irrelevant. Every Wikipedia sets its own standards for the exclusion and inclusion of material and interprets and applies them differently, so decisions made at a different WP have no bearing here.

Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:06, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

For the "Etymology" section this map is more relevant. Divot (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I think to show the "Azerbaijan" at the period when the name "Atropathena" was transformed to "Azerbaijan", this map is a good example. The borders of Atropathena (Azerbaijan) are also shown. --Interfase (talk) 08:01, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Since both of you seem to agree that there are better maps than the one in dispute in this DRN listing, can the two of you go back to the article talk page for a discussion of which of those might be a better map for that section and we can close this dispute? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:45, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I think the first map could also be used in the article. It shows that in the history the term "Azerbaijan" was used also for the lands on the north bank of Araks. Because most readers can think that the term was used for the territory of Azerbaijan Republic only in 1918. But this is a myth. As we can see the term "Azerbaijan" was used for this territory in the begginings of the 19th century as well. And the discussed map is the best example, which shows this. --Interfase (talk) 21:34, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with this (first) map. As I wrote at the TP, the map contains factual errors. In addition, Bournoutian says that the map is wrong.

There are a lot of maps of the region. I don't understand why we need to use obviously wrong map. Divot (talk) 01:25, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Cannot agree more with Divot. This particular map is nonsense. Should be publish "maps" where medieval sailors designate places with dragons and mermaids? Hablabar (talk) 02:43, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Do you want to say "Again agree with Divot"? )) Divot (talk) 08:16, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Of course. LOL - "Cannot agree more with *someone*" Это такой речевой оборот в английском. Именно это и означает. Hablabar (talk) 18:53, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm confused. By "first map" are we talking about "Russia at the Caucasus" or about "[:File:Ancient_countries_of_Transcaucasia.jpg|Ancient countries of Transcaucasia]"? If we've gone back to talking about Caucasus, I presume that Interfase's comment, above at 21:34, 21 February 2014, is in response to my second bullet point, above, but I don't see what that argument has to do with the meaning of the word "Azerbaijan" which is all that the Etymology section is about. It's not about what territory the term includes, it's only about how the word originated. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:22, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Artpop

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Reece Leonard on 19:32, 19 February 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Artpop (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Reece Leonard (talk · contribs)
• STATicVapor (talk · contribs)
• IndianBio (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Various users engaged in a debate on what the critical consensus should be listed as as much as four months ago, but in the past month the disagreement was brought up again with three main contributors. I've cited two sources that claim the consensus is generally positive, and STATicVapor has consistently refused to discuss them in lieu of his own research and interpretation of what the critical consensus is and will cite certain parts of a source that I have cited myself (Metacritic) and ignore others that contradict his viewpoint, namely the consensus that is stated on this source's page that aligns with my claim. IndianBio initially sided with STATicVapor, but after I spoke with him on his talk page and presented my analysis, we both agreed that a larger viewpoint was needed on the discussion as he agreed my analysis was factual and necessary the conversation. STATic has been adament in his adherence to his own WP:ORin the past (converting the Venus (Lady Gaga song) page to one of a promotional single was a chore that he opposed for quite a while based purely on his own conjecture). The consensus listed on the ARTPOP page is factually inaccurate; Metacritic is the only source that those who argue for the "mixed to positive" consensus are willing to cite, even though Metacritic forms a conglomerate of reviews for the sole purpose of using them to form a weighted, calculated score and consensus. In the matter of this album, the consensus is "generally favorable". There are more mixed reviews listed on the cite, but I'd like to combat that statement with multiple points: 1) Focusing on the number of categorical reviews is overly simplistic; It doesn't tell the whole story. It's also not the approach that Metacritic, the source where this information is coming from, adheres to. Picking and choosing information from a source and ignoring others doesn't make any sense. 2) Even if you were to go by the standard of focusing on the number of reviews in each category (again, an act that Metacritic, the source being cited, does not practice), twelve of the reviews that are listed as "mixed" are literally one percentage point below being listed as entirely positive and cannot simply be passed off as mixed. They consist mostly of 3/5 star or 3 and a half/5 star reviews, otherwise known as positive reviews with reservations. If those reviews are discounted, the vast majority that STATic has been claiming to exist in the mixed section evaporates. 3) I realize that gossip sites and the blogosphere has had a field day with the dip in critical acclaim for the artist at hand, but you can't go by what gossip sites say (most of the sources STATic has listed are either gossip blogs or small journals); yes, the acclaim is less than her previous works, but the trend is still generally positive, as proven by the consensus listed on Metacritic and the consensus reported by an actually credible journal (the Huffington Post source I listed on the ARTPOP talk page that states that the consensus was positive from the multitude of critics that they sourced and linked to, something none of his sources did). As dealers of fact, it is our job to ignore the noise of the blogosphere and report on what is sourced and provable; in this case, the critical consensus is generally positive. I recognize that the reaction has been more ambivilant than her previous works, and have advocated for a disclaimer being listed after the (sourced and factual) consensus of "generally positive". The reception page should read that the album "recieved generally positive reviews, although the response was much more ambivalent in comparison to Gaga's previous work", as this addresses the obvious issues that users have raised as well as reports the consensus as it truly is according to sourced fact. Reece Leonard (talk) 22:32, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I've approached both parties individually to discuss the issue but agreement has not been achieved.

How do you think we can help?

Provide an outlet for more input and mediate between the three users.

Summary of dispute by STATicVapor

Clearly unnecessary, a local consensus would be best for this. Please comment on content not contributors, you seriously have a problem with that Reece. My name has to always be thrown into your responses at least five times. Anyways, Metacritic indicates that the album received 21 mixed reviews and 9 positive reviews, now why in the world would we say it received generally positive reviews, when over twice as many were mixed. I never had a problem with listing it as mixed to positive, but listing it as generally positive is just ridiculous and not adhering to a WP:NPOV. The other source brang up by the Reece, was a cherry picked source that states only 10 of the album's reviews, some of which were positive. But the source did not say it received generally positive reviews, so more WP:OR on his/her part. As I said earlier in that thread on Talk: Artpop; it is not hard to find multiple reliable sources saying it received mixed, negative, mixed, mixed, and mixed reviews that also summarize the album's critical reception. STATic message me! 19:56, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by IndianBio

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Here I am. The thing is that I am myself confused as to why and where this blew up to the epic proportions. Was DRN really necessary? I see that the discussion and the rage is still continuing in the talk page. The thing is that Reece Leonard has some good points, which are being dismised by Static Vapor instead of acknowledging them in a civilized manner and then come into a consensus. Little bit of dirt throwing is going on which needs to stop and for this neither party is ready to give it up. I guess that may be the reason DRN was needed. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 16:36, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for joining us! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:59, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Reminder to all involved parties

We understand that content disputes can be frustrating and can create intense feelings about other editors however, WP:DRN is a content only forum and does not deal with or consider behavioral issues. For this reason we ask DRN participants to avoid references to other editor's actions or behavior and just stick to the merits of the content under discussion. Please keep this in mind as the case proceeds and thanks for your participation at DRN! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:11, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

24 HOUR CLOSING NOTICE: Hi User:Reece Leonard and User:STATicVapor, if User:IndianBio does not show up ASAP then this case will need to be closed due to non-participation of a key member of the dispute. (Note: participation is voluntary and not required) -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:31, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

IndianBio has posted above so I am going to open this case for discussion.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:00, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Artpop discussion

The case is now open. The locust of the dispute seems to be how to characterize a work by Lady Gaga. Some editors have characterized the work as receiving "generally positive" reviews while others characterize it as "mixed". Is this the dispute in a nutshell? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:51, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

The debate is between "mixed to positive" and "generally positive", not "mixed". Other than that, yes. That is correct. Reece Leonard (talk) 23:25, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

No it is "mixed" and "generally positive", you were right Keithbob. STATic message me! 23:32, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Let the record show that STATic has now changed his stance purely because I've repeatedly discredited his arguments and he now operates on a personal vendetta against the sourced consensus I'm arguing for. Reece Leonard (talk) 01:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

The debate indeed started between "mixed to positive" (which is listed) and generally positive (which is what Reece is advocating). —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:16, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Not true, it used to just say mixed, I do not know where it changed within the last four months. STATic message me! 05:51, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

(→) The situation is getting too dirty at Talk:Artpop#Critical_Reception. If this continues very soon administrators need to intervene. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:24, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that I've repeatedly tried to keep it clean and professional and always cited sources and argued based on fact, as shown on the talk page. Reece Leonard (talk) 05:32, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Looks like it died down, rather then mediate the discussion, I would like an admin to close it so we can get over this already. And Reece that is the funniest thing all day, you are the only one the has consistently resorted to harassing and attacking everyone that disagreed with you. STATic message me! 05:51, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Disputing content and pointing out that stating you don't like the artist who's page you're editing is obviously an example of bias does not constitute harassment and you know that. You're the one who has called myself and IndianBio children in addition to accusing me of being illiterate, as well as outright refusing to read my arguments because you don't feel like it. You've literally come out and admitted that you didn't read my arguments early on in the debate. Reece Leonard (talk) 05:58, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Just to make my argument clear, here is the consensus that I feel the page should state: "ARTPOP recieved generally positive reviews from music critics, although responses were much more ambivalent in comparison to Gaga's previous works". Here are my sources that support this consensus: DigitalSpy, Metacritic's weighted consensus of generally favorable, The Huffington Post, Entertainmentwise. Reece Leonard (talk) 07:10, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Saint Francis High School (La Cañada Flintridge)

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. – Discussion in progress. Filed by Evrik on 22:33, 21 February 2014 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Saint Francis High School (La Cañada Flintridge) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Evrik (talk · contribs) John from Idegon (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Whether or not 1) two entries were referenced 2) whether the references were appropriate. After the initial removal of the information, I found two references. Those were deemed to be not sufficient, so I have now been reverted 2 x. One reference was from the school's facebook page, and the second was from the Congressional record. Those two references should be enough for those small entries. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Discussing it on my talk page. How do you think we can help? Convince JFI to stop Wikipedia:MOLEHILL. These are small points on the page and the references are good. Template:DRN bottom Summary of dispute by John from Idegon Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Saint Francis High School (La Cañada Flintridge) discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.