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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. 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Current disputes

Talk:Eritrea

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Richard0048 on 16:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Eritrea (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Richard0048 (talk · contribs)
• Soupforone (talk · contribs)
• Otakrem (talk · contribs)
• AcidSnow (talk · contribs)
• Chipmunkdavis (talk · contribs)
• SilkTork (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The issue involves what term is prefered to describe the location of the country Eritrea in the lede and the geographic section of the article. I have argumented for restoring the use of the term East Africa or Eastern Africa which used by international organization such as United Nations, African Union and African development bank to mention a few, East Africa was also recently used in the article until the other part in the dispute Soupforone (talk · contribs) changed it to Horn of Africa. I have suggested using both since Eritrea is part of both East Africa and Horn of Africa, even though the latter being less recognized region and a less used term to describe the country's location by international organizations. At the moment it only mentions Horn of Africa. Opinions and comments in resolving this issue would be appricated.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussing the matter on the talk page and provided suggestions to resolve the issue

How do you think we can help?

Comments and opinions on what term should be used and opinions why both can't be mentioned

Talk:Eritrea discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been extended discussion on the article talk page, which is one of the conditions to open a case here. The filing editor has notified the main other editor. An administrator also took part in the talk page discussion and has not been notified. Although they may not be interested in participating because they were neutral, they should be notified anyway. We are waiting for the administrator to be notified, and for the other editor to reply as to whether they are willing to participate in moderated discussion. (Moderated discussion is voluntary but encouraged.) Robert McClenon (talk) 17:14, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - Basically, Richard0048 changed the geographical location of Eritrea from Horn of Africa to East Africa without any apparent justification [1]. While tidying up some unlicensed files, I rolled to the original toponym. He subsequently objected for the reasons above. After some fruitless discussion on the talk page, I contacted the administrator SilkTork to facilitate dialogue. SilkTork then suggested noting the three primary locations for Eritrea (Horn of Africa, Northeast Africa and Eastern Africa) [2]. However, Richard0048 objected to all geographical phrasings that gave equal weight to Northeast Africa. I pointed out that the Eritrean Ministry of Information indicates that Eritrea is situated in the Horn [3]. It also draws a geographical distinction between the latter region and East Africa [4], but apparently not with North East Africa [5], and it doesn't appear to use these toponyms interchangeably. CMD then explained that both Northeast Africa and Eastern Africa were unnecessary regional qualifiers since it is already geographically implicit that the Horn of Africa is located within these areas. Otakrem, AcidSnow and myself agreed with this reasoning; especially since the country policy stipulates that the lede should indicate the "location in the world" in the singular rather locations in the plural. However, this rough consensus was apparently not satisfactory for Richard0048. Soupforone (talk) 18:21, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. AcidSnow (talk) 18:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I mentioned Horn of Africa is used in the lead for Ethiopia, Djbouti, and Somalia,therefore either implement Richard's suggestion for all the Three countries or keep Eritrea as the same as those 3 countries. Richard only wanted to apply this to Eritrea only. I asked Why? No convincing argument was given. I agree with Soupforone and AcidSnow on keeping only Horn of Africa.Otakrem (talk) 01:51, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - I see that one editor has added some other editors. The other editors should be notified of this discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I did even suggest to include all three geographic namings, several times. Some of the editors that have been added besides soupforone and silkTork has not been engaged in the discussion from start. I did change it in January as you mentioned but nobody objected to it at that time. Richard0048 (talk) 18:42, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

• I consider myself notified in that my name was linked, so I have been alerted by the system. I'd be quite happy for discussion to take place here. I have limited time on Wikipedia these days, and so am unable to monitor and respond in a timely manner; it is appropriate for others to now take over. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:40, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I did suggest and accepted the suggestion to also add for other countries in the horn of Africa. Richard0048 (talk) 02:00, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

I will accept this case. All parties in this case, make your statements below. After this, please discuss. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 17:38, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

I have made my statement by opening the case. The other parties may provide their statementsRichard0048 (talk) 17:54, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

• Volunteer note Richard0048 Removed an image on the grounds of incorrect licensing, but AcidSnow Reverted this. I realize this happened around 6 days ago but I haven't found any discussion of this here. Iazyges (talk) 06:14, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Volunteer note As I go further back in the article history, I notice that this same image has been added by Soupforone, removed by Richard0048, and his removal reverted by AcidSnow multiple times. However there has been no activity on the page within 6 or so days, and the image is currently on the page with the last edit being soupforone reverting richards0048's removal of the image. Robert McClenon has a consensus been reached in regards to the image? Iazyges (talk) 06:22, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - I am not the moderator here. User:ThePlatypusofDoom is the moderator. Follow their instructions by making your statement here below. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:43, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
• Volunteer note I'm confused, I'm entirely new to the DRN, so please forgive me, but isn't only the disputing parties supposed to make a statement Robert McClenon? Iazyges (talk) 14:29, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - Yes. The other volunteer is correct. I was restating the instructions of the moderator, who told the disputing parties to make statements. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:58, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Statements by parties to this case

Richard0048 Removed an image on the grounds of incorrect licensing, but AcidSnow Reverted this. I realize this happened around 6 days ago but I haven't found any discussion of this here. As I go further back in the article history, I notice that this same image has been added by Soupforone, removed by Richard0048, and his removal reverted by AcidSnow multiple times. However there has been no activity on the page within 6 or so days, and the image is currently on the page with the last edit being reverting richards0048's removal of the image. Iazyges (talk) 15:15, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Iazyges, that is not the issue in the op. Please see below. Soupforone (talk) 03:45, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

As user lazyges mentions the article have not been edited for a coulple of days. My changes are being reverted by soupforone and AcidSnow as the volunteer points out. Consensus has yet to be reached regarding the naming of Eritreas location.These two have not been engaged in this discussion. They have had the chance to do so for almost two weeks, yet they have choosen not to. The behavior of these two should be viewed since they are making edits, without legitime sources and without trying to reach consensus, at the same time intefering when other users do edit.. Regarding the image, as user lazyges mention it have been removed by me and have been added serveral times by these two users. The image should not be on the article for serveral reason mentioned on the talk page of the article.Richard0048 (talk) 07:57, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - As indicated in the op, this discussion is on the Horn of Africa vs. East Africa link in the intro. The image file is a separate matter (Richard tried to have the file deleted from Commons, but this was dismissed as spurious and the file's license was just cleared [6]). I, AcidSnow and Otakrem object to Richard's unjustified link change from Horn of Africa to East Africa for the reasons explained above. Soupforone (talk) 03:45, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
• Volunteer Comment Ok, i mentioned the two below due to the amount of time it was mentioned in the article talk of eritrea, the issue of the HOA vs EA matter shouldn't be difficult to dispute, as while East africa is a fitting description, it is less specific than the Horn of africa is. Iazyges (talk) 03:57, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

I have opened the discussion. Please discuss below. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 20:18, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

If this is disputed, could you hold a RfC for this? ThePlatypusofDoom  (talk) 20:18, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

To streamline the case, in danger of sounding lawyeristic, we have separate issues that are being debated correct? The use of a photo was the most recent dispute, with another photo also being disputed, and the primary dispute being the changing of the location from horn of africa to east africa. I think we should separate the three as if they were three different disputes. 
1st dispute: Soho women in traditional attire, the license appears to be valid, as when investigating the source itself it is marked that it may be used but must be attributed, which it is, unless the source cited on the page is incorrect, and that source has infringed upon a copyright, I see no problem here, but I may be wrong. As of a neutral POV, if it is correctly licensed, it  should stay upon the page unless there is any other issue with it.
2nd dispute: the queen of punt, it is a public domain file, and as such there is no argument over the license, but merely if the file is applicable, based upon if punt ever included the land of eritrea, most scholars agree that it was likely to cover both eritrea and ethiopia (or at least the northeast of it). Land of Punt. Currently due to the fact that both can claim it, I see no reason for a dispute.
3rd: The changing of horn of africa to east africa has already been much discussed but to break it down, the horn of africa is considered by popular consensus to be inside of northeast africa (Horn of Africa), so there is no reason to change it  to east africa when horn of africa is more specific that I can tell, but again, if their is something i have missed (likely) please inform me. Iazyges (talk) 00:17, 10 August 2016 (UTC) @Richard0048: @Soupforone: @AcidSnow:

As you mention lazyges there are three seperate issues. Regarding your comment on Horn of Africa being part of Northeast Africa. Horn of Africa is sometimes referred to as Northeast Africa so therefore it is not located within Northeast Africa since its sometimes referred to being Northeast Africa. Horn of Africa is located within East Africa. There ot is not controversial to write that Eritrea is a country in Horn of Africa and that it is located in East Africa. E.g as suggested, "Eritrea is a country in Horn of Africa, located in East Africa." By this sentence the reader could get a quick understanding of the location of the country, at the same time the most common and etablished definition (East Africa) by UN, African Union, African devolopment bank etc is used. To use both is a fair compromize. The saho file is as separate issue, however the file has been subjected for dispute in the past for various of reasons, not correctly licensed, poor quality etc. This issue was also disputed more than a year ago, before soupforone decided to role back the page a year. Im still of the opinion that it should be replaced. As for the punt file, there is a level of uncertainties regarding if punt was located in what is today known as Eritrea. I have asked for caution on how punt is portrayed in relation to Eritrea. By doing that I have not questioned if the text should be on the article, but I have questioned if the image of the Queen of punt should be included in the article since it is unknown if she ruled what is today known as Eritrea. So my suggestion is to remove it from the article.Richard0048 (talk) 07:11, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

@Richard0048: As I mentioned, according to the file Horn of Africa It is a location inside of east africa, but saying "it is locate in HOA a location in east africa" should be an easy solution? if both are there both sides are happy yes? As i mentioned the file i believe to be correct license, although i admit my lack of experience with the wikimedia commons, the punt issue is relatively immaterial, as almost all scholars agree that Punt contain both eritrea and north east ethiopia, so i must ask, not sarcastic but truly don't know, why is this being disputed in the eritrea article? As consensus has said that eritrea was in it. Iazyges (talk) 16:37, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Iazyges. I agree with your logical conclusions. Soupforone (talk) 17:07, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

@Soupforone: Have we achieved consensus consensus on your side? Do @AcidSnow:, @Otakrem:, and @Chipmunkdavis: all agree to the following, 1. rather than saying that eritrea is a location in HOA or EA, say that it is a location "In the horn of africa, which is part of east africa." 2. The soho women picture, is see no issue with, unless the source cited plagiarized it, which would make the license invalid. 3. The queen of punt, i again see no apparent issue with, their is general consensus that eritrea was part of the kingdom of punt. Do all of the above parties agree on this? @Richard0048:

TL;DR: 1. Instead of in HOA or EA, its in HOA which is part of EA, 2. Keep soho picture. 3. Keep queen of punt picture, what percentage of the involved people (5 involved that aren't volunteers/admins) agree to these compromises? Iazyges (talk) 21:56, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the opinions. I can agree on your proposed suggestion for the naming of Eritreas location which you mentioned would be, "Ertrea is located in the horn of Africa, which is part of East Africa". Regarding the punt, it is still up to debate since there are many sources that point to that the location of punt is unknown. Therefore the best solution is diggin into and providing sources. Then we could see what the outcome is? If most reliable sources point to Eritrea being included in punt and that the punt Queen ruled the area today know as Eritrea then the image of punt Queen should stay, or else it should be removed.The saho image is being debated on the talk page, another image of higher quality should resolve that dispute. Richard0048 (talk) 07:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

According to Land of Punt, at face value it says that eritrea was in punt, i believe their is a source that you may check out. " Simson Najovits, Egypt, trunk of the tree, Volume 2, (Algora Publishing: 2004), p.258." Iazyges (talk) 12:25, 11 August 2016 (UTC)@Richard0048:

Thank you for the source. I will provide you with sources on punt. However in order to allow the original dispute to move forward the punt file and saho file should be put aside and discussed in the talk page of the article of Eritrea. Regarding the original dispute issue which was about the naming of Eritreas location I have accepted your suggestion. I would suggest that you move forward with making these changes if nobody objects. Which is changing the current naming of location to "Eritrea is located in the horn of africa, which is part of East Africa". Both in the lead and in the geographics section. You can refer to sources I have provided below. Other parties that were added by soupforone to the dispute about naming of Eritreas location have had weeks to respond and have not decided to engage. Richard0048 (talk) 15:52, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Iazyges, Otakrem and Chipmunkdavis indicated on the talk page that Horn of Africa was sufficient in the lede, as it is geographically implicit in Northeast Africa and Eastern Africa (Chipmunkdavis actually pointed this out). Otakrem also repeated this above, as did I and AcidSnow. As regards the Saho file, AcidSnow and myself indicated on the Eritrea page that it was fine, and your rationale regarding the Punt file likewise seems logical. Soupforone (talk) 16:26, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

• @Soupforone: @Richard0048: Ok so: Soho files stays unless their is a higher quality picture that comes along, the punt file stays, and we compromise and have it be "In HOA which is in EA." Is that the agreement we have to end the dispute? Iazyges (talk) 17:02, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

As I indicated above, all but Richard have asserted that HOA is sufficient for the lede since it is already geographically implicit in the other regions. The Saho file was already determined to be fine on Commons, including its quality. The Punt queen file is fine too, but the alternative Punt carriers file works as well. Soupforone (talk) 17:23, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@Richard0048: As Horn of Africa indicated that HOA is inside of east africa, HOA is a better descriptor, so in effect anyone who reads the HOA or knows it already will know that it is in EA. So would you agree to keep it as HOA? Iazyges (talk) 17:36, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

No its not ok. You came up with a suggestion then, I accepted it then you all of sudden changed your mind.I started this topic on the dispute resolution for a reason. It was not with the intention to only have horn of Africa in the lead for the article. Even though you tried to participate in this discussion, im getting the scense that your not impartial in your suggestions, since you seem to agree and provide the exact same arguments as (soupforone and AcidSnow).. Richard0048 (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@Richard0048: i'm following the logical progression, while I was previously for having both EA and HOA, i changed my mind due to reading the HOA article and learning that it states explicitly that it is in North east africa. The problem with what you want is it is less specific than leaving it at HOA, but the definition of HOA places it inside EA, meaning that their is no point changing it to EA when HOA is less specific. The reason that soupforone and I have reached the same conclusion is that I think that his point about HOA being inside of EA making the change or addition of EA illogical, and also I cannot really tell what you are trying to say in the last sentence, but it sounds like you're accusing me of being partial. Iazyges (talk) 20:25, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The definition of Eritreas location which is East Africa According to UN, African Union, African development bank, World bank, WHO is being overlooked. For every user it is not clear what HOA is, it is not as widespread or recognized to describe Eritreas location in a global context as East Africa. For the sake of trying to compromize I have suggested in using both HOA and EA. Nobody has mentioned a good reason for leaving out "East Africa" which all of mentioned international organizations uses for defining Eritreas location. FYI Northeast Africa is by no means a recognized region, it is very difuse term which is sometimes referred to as Horn of Africa. The Horn of Africa article that you just read has been modified by the other disputing part. It feeds into the Northeast Africa article, which is a confusing article, which feeds into East Africa and North Africa articles. This is confusing for the reader, since Northeast Africa does not exist in terms of being a actual region. So therefore it should mention only East Africa or both Horn of Africa and East Africa. Regarding the last sentence, I have been notified about accusations regarding an involved user in this dispute. Im not accusing you or anyone else. You have provided your opinions, which are appreciated, im simply stating that your opinions are aligned with the other part. Richard0048 (talk) 21:43, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

What organizations however large consider it is immaterial in this case, as this is a matter of which is better for the layman, which is always something specific according to a goldilocks standard. The term HOA while you pointed out is not recognized by organizations, is recognized by the common person, and thus works better than east africa. Iazyges (talk) 22:08, 11 August 2016 (UTC) @Richard0048:

References Talk:Eritrea

References

Expulsion of Cham Albanians

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by DevilWearsBrioni on 19:01, 2 August 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Expulsion of Cham Albanians#Balkan Wars - OR .2F POV (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• DevilWearsBrioni (talk · contribs)
• Resnjari (talk · contribs)
• SilentResident (talk · contribs)
• Alexikoua (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There's disagreement whether a section of the Expulsion of Cham Albanians constitutes as original research or not. The part in question is: "Muslim Chams were not keen to fight on the side of the Ottoman army, but already from autumn 1912 formed armed bands and raided the entire area as far north as Pogoni. As a result, hundreds of Greek villagers were forced to escape to nearby Corfu and Arta. Thus, the members of the Muslim community were treated as de facto enemies by the Greek state."

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I've posted on the NOR noticeboard. See discussion here.

How do you think we can help?

Hopefully a neutral editor can steer the discussion in the right way.

Summary of dispute by DevilWearsBrioni

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I believe the contentious part is OR as it attempts to justify the Greek army's treatment of Muslim Chams by synthesizing two sources. Link to section: Expulsion of Cham Albanians#Balkan Wars (1912-1913). The Wikipedia entry essentially states that "Muslim Chams raided villages; they were thus treated as enemies by the Greek state", but neither of the two sources state that the Greek army treated Muslim Chams as enemies as a consequence of the raids by Muslim bands (quite the contrary, one of the sources states that Muslim Chams were reluctant to fight on the side of the Ottomans, but were nonetheless treated as enemies). Moreover, in the same section it's also stated that Athens had approached Muslim Chams as soon as the Balkan wars broke out, but the latter had already "formed irregular armed units and were burning Greek inhabited settlements". This is a distortion of the source (see here). Intentional or not, it's clearly leads the reader to believe that the treatment of Muslim Chams was justified. At the very least, it's misrepresents one of the cited scholars, for example see section situation prior to annexation. Although the author doesn't explicitly state why the Greek army treated Muslim Chams as enemies, the situation prior to annexation certainly suggests that there were other factors at play.

Edit: I'd like to make some clarifications since there seems to be some confusion as to what the heart of the dispute is. I don't think it's helpful, especially for Guy, if we keep talking past each other. So let me be perfectly clear here: I have quoted a section of the Wikipedia article in the dispute overview. My contention is that the section is not supported by the two inlines because it "serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves." I refer to OR policy: "Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves." The grey text in the summary is secondary, and I'll gladly discuss it too, but please focus on the main issue.

Summary of dispute by Resnjari

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Sorry for the late reply. About this matter, that section i would say that we need to have clarification about thee emergence of Cham miltias in the region. The Pitouli source says that the Muslim Albanian elite class (the beys etc) established the miltias and recruited from Muslim Albanian villages. As it stands now in the article that is mentioned in that form and instead it implies that Muslim Chams formed those groups from down below. Also a recent edit by Brioni at reversing and making the section not be one sided but take all issues that occurred into account during that time was deleted [7] based on Greek scholarship. I remind everyone to use the talpkage and take thing in good faith. Brioni has used quality sources. Also another related matter to that section is that Greece entry into the Balkans war and in the Epirus theatre needs to be cited due to Alexikoua raising issues over chronological sequences of Ottoman-Greek engagements. The sources used so far have not bothered to cite this simple fact. Some peer reviewed references would do the trick. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:17, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by SilentResident

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I do not understand why this dispute continues, and I do not intend to keep myself involved in it forever, hence I have ceased replying to this on the NOR noticeboard for a while now. The historical event in question, has already been well-sourced, quoted and dated. And, pardon me, but unless I missed something, no concrete and reliable sources opposing it have been provided, so far. No sources explicitly stating that the bands were not formed yet and the atrocities didn't happen at that time, so I can't help but find the argument for its removal unreasonable. -- SILENTRESIDENT 12:34, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Alexikoua

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The historical event that is questioned is well sourced with a full quote (i.e. Muslim Chams had already formed irregular armed units and were burning Greek inhabited settlements in the area of Paramythia.) , thus I can't understand what's the argument for its removal (also responded here [[8]], and made a minor edit to clarify DWB's concern about when the attrocities exactly started[[9]]).Alexikoua (talk) 08:42, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Expulsion of Cham Albanians discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am waiting for everyone to make their statements before opening this up for discussion. in the meantime, I encourage everyone involved to review our Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and Wikipedia:Consensus pages. Thanks! There is one thing that I need everyone involved to understand right from the start; DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors. If anyone has a problem with this, let me know and we can discuss whether I should turn the case over to another dispute resolution volunteer. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:35, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I am Iazyges, a volunteer, as Guy Macon is involved in real life issues, I have offered to take over and he has accepted. So as of now I am the volunteer who will be working with you. @DevilWearsBrioni:,@Resnjari:,@SilentResident:@Alexikoua:. Iazyges (talk) 18:45, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I am reading the statements above and going through the page and talk page history. When I am done (sometime today I hope) I will open this up for discussion and lay out a plan that I hope will allow us to resolve this content dispute. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:27, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

My apologies for replying down there - I do not know where else to reply - But since the fellow user Resnjari just mentioned the edit changes in which both DevilWearsBrioni and Athenean were involved, I realized how the user Athenean was not invited here to make a statement. Couldn't this user too be given the chance to make a statement? Thanks. -- SILENTRESIDENT 02:59, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Athenean was not involved in the discussion, that's why he wasn't invited. He made one revert after this had been created. If he really wanted a "chance to make a statement", he could have made it on the talk page/noticeboard. With that said, I personally don't see why Athenean, or anyone else for that matter, can't join the discussion once this has been opened. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 08:32, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Comment:Ok, ok, I wont comment about the other stuff. About this issue outright, just locate a few of those histories on the Balkans wars (there are a couple of good peer reviewed ones now out there, do a quick google search in google books etc) that gives Greece's entry into the Balkans war and in particular its entrance especially into the front in Epirus due to Alexikoua and Brioni discussing chronology. At least that should go some way to remedying this situation or at the very least giving info on how to go about this. I still stand by my earlier recommendation about making the sentence precise in this section about the irregular forces/militias (as per Pitouli) as they were formed by the Ottoman Muslim elite and not the initiative of local Muslim Cham villagers. Best.Resnjari (talk) 11:25, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Please, please, please, could you just let Guy Macon decide without trying to indirectly influence his directions by suggesting, from your part, what specific sources shall he look upon and by which scholars? Because, dear Resnjari, we are in the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, where, and if I am not mistaken, once we have made our statements, the administrator is left to decide what is the best for the article in question. This means Guy Macon will have to weight on ALL the sources, (including Tsoutsoumpis's sources, among other scholars and not just only the Pitouli's sources). So, please, if we are done with our statements already (In the Summary of "Dispute by X User" section, above) where our position on the debate is made clear and well-known, then, I kindly recommend that we wait patiently and let Guy Macon decide without any of us making unnecessary suggestions on the matter that could affect decissions in the one or the other way, aside from discussion on the content itself. Thanks. -- SILENTRESIDENT 05:31, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

I have placed an additional comment to the previous comment of mine. The statements outline the initial positions. This is a discussion too. I am not influencing anyone and am pointing out differences and issues with certain bits that led to this matter being here in the first place. I can wait. Best.Resnjari (talk) 07:17, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Volunteer note

@DevilWearsBrioni:,@Resnjari:,@SilentResident:@Alexikoua:: Ok so, having viewed the section in question, I have noticed that while there is a source for both that the Muslim chams didn't want to accept greek overlordship, and also "As a result, hundreds of Greek villagers were forced to escape to nearby Corfu and Arta.", what i take to be the OR dispute is "Muslim Chams were not keen to fight on the side of the Ottoman army, but already from autumn 1912 formed armed bands and raided the entire area as far north as Pogoni.", has no sources that I can see, now the question lies in was it always no-sourced or did the source perhaps get removed by previous edits, as such I will dive through the edit history looking for one. Or if anyone has a source for it, please send it to me. Iazyges (talk) 18:55, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The source is here: Tsoutsoumpis, 2015, p. 122: "In the autumn of 1912, Muslim bands raided villages as far north as the area of Pogoni in Ioannina; resulting in hundreds of Greek peasants abandoning their homes and seeking shelter in Corfu and Arta." -- SILENTRESIDENT 20:32, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

That casts aside any doubts that the Muslim bands were already formed by the Autumn of the year 1912.-- SILENTRESIDENT 20:35, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi @Iazyges: Have you read the discussion here (at least my post, and Alexikoua's response):Talk:Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians#Balkan_Wars_-_OR_.2F_POV? No relevant sources have been removed. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 20:13, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello, @DevilWearsBrioni:,@SilentResident: I've read all of the summations of the dispute, and while the part about the Greek villagers escaping is sourced, and that cham didnt want to accept leadship of greeks is sourced, as you mentioned the part about them not wanting to join the ottomans but forming bands of their own. Viewing the citation of both themselves, I noticed the citation about the greek fleeing specifies only muslim raiders, not cham raiders, which while they have a correlation doesn't neccisarily mean that the cham did it, only that muslims did it. However the other source about them not wanting to accept greek overlordship does specify that the cham burned villages. "Among the Albanian beys Epirus , most Liapis and Chams , who had strongly anti-Greek feelings had already formed irregular bodies and fought against the Greek army and the Greek body , burning villages in Paramythia and Headlight areas. Some beys instead to Delvinou apartments, Gjirokastra , Torrent and Margaritiou seemed ready to accept the Greek domination , to exempt from the anarchy that resulted from a shadowy Turkish power. as early as October 17 Athens had entrusted him Spyromilios consult with their beys , to declare allegiance soon , assuring them that the Greek authorities would respect the life and property of Muslims and that the Greek government would care for their moral satisfaction , depending on the services to be offered ", p. 360: " Albanian Muslim from sancak Resadie , after the occupation of the Greek army , fled to Vlore . many of them had fought with the Turks against the Greeks , and had pyrpolisei several villages in sections Filiaton and Paramythia. There, before the final installation of the Greek authorities had made ​​against them and some reprisals from Christians, and conflicts between Albanian and Greek bodies" Unless the translation is shody, it does appear the sentence about the cham looting and burning is not original research, however their the source does contradict the "didn't want to fight on the side of the ottomans" with the "many of them had fought with the Turks against the Greeks " part of the source. Iazyges (talk) 20:50, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The Chams did in fact burn villages, but if you look at the source you just quoted it states that Chams "had fought against the Greek army, burning villages in..." These events occurred during the war, when both sides were burning villages. What's OR is the synthesis of sources. Tsoutsoumpis states that Muslim bands raided villages in autumn. Baltsiotis states that Muslim Chams were reluctant to fight on the side of the Ottoman army, but were nevertheless treated as enemies. The wikipedia entry states that they were treated as enemies because Muslim bands raided villages in autumn. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 21:13, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The vast majority of the muslim community in the Ioannina region were Muslim Chams, not Muslims of other ethnicities.

Here are the sources about the population data of that time period. The Muslim Chams constituted more than 95% of the muslim community's population in the whole region:

Erickson, Edward J. (2003). Defeat in detail: the Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912–1913. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 41. ISBN 978-0-275-97888-4. Retrieved 23 January 2011.

Sakellariou, M. V. (1997). Epirus, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization. Ekdotike Athenon. p. 480. ISBN 978-960-213-371-2.

M. V. Sakellariou. Epirus, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization. Ekdotikē Athēnōn, 1997, ISBN 9789602133712, p. 356

-- SILENTRESIDENT 21:00, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni:,@SilentResident: Given these sources it is not original research, however the bit about the chams not wanting to fight for the turks may need updating, as according to the source i talked about above, many of the cham raiders had fought alongside the turks against the greek. Iazyges (talk) 21:07, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Please understand that I have never argued that the Chams didn't fight on the side of the Ottoman army. Evene Baltsiotis writes: "During the Balkan War, in late 1912, when Muslim Chams were fighting on the side of the Ottoman Army, and Christian Chams on that of the Greek Army, several local conflicts emerged." Before that he states "Although Muslim Chams were not eager to fight on the side of the Ottoman army during the Balkan Wars, they were nevertheless treated by the Greek army as de facto enemies". The issue here is whether it's synthesis to conclude that Muslim Chams were treated as enemies because Muslim bands raided villages in Autumn. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 21:22, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much, dear Iazyges. Because I always wondered why this was seen as an OR case when it clearly is not. Much appreciated. -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:10, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

And I agree, dear Iazyges, that the particular sentence you have mentioned, indeed needs an update. -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Muslim Chams constituted a fraction of the population. Have you even read Tsoutsoumpis, the very source you quoted above? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 21:13, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Dear DevilWearsBrioni, please you need accept the facts for once... This is not OR...

And yes, like Alexikoua has explained, based on Tsoutsoumpis's sources, it's more than obvious that 'Muslims' refers to "Muslim Chams": the people of the Muslim community. In Tsoutsoumbis's scholarship, the specific section is labelled: "The land and the people" and it begins with a geopolitical analysis: "Thesprotia is located in north-western Greece, .....During the early 20th century the population was a little over 65,000 one-third of whom were Muslims". Everyone can conclude that this was the Muslims community involved in the events. -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:16, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni: Whether the Tsoutsoumpis source is accurate is not, the Greek source i mentioned above makes it non OR. Iazyges (talk) 21:23, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni:, @SilentResident: And with that conclusion I believe the case is closed, unless someone has a valid argument then I will close the case in a few hours.

Thanks. I am very glad this has been resolved in the one or the other way, because this dispute has escalated toooooo long, to the point of exhausting me. Dear @DevilWearsBrioni:, dear @Iazyges:, if you excuse me, now that the dispute is resolved, can I take a break from it so I can focuse on other Wikipedia articles that need more immediate attention? Being involved in a never-ending dispute like this, is very counterproductive for both the editors and the Wikipedia as whole. -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:30, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@SilentResident:, Yes you may, if you would like to be the one to rephrase the ottoman issue then go for it. But the issue is over, I will now close the case. Iazyges (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The source is accurate with regards to the numbers, I have not claimed it's not. You keep misunderstanding me. SilentResident claims Muslim Chams constituted 95% of the region when they in fact were a fraction of the population, all according to the source. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 21:29, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

That is immaterial unless that fact (if it is incorrect) is in the article itself, the other source is in line with the disputed sentences, so even if it's based upon only one source, it is not OR. Iazyges (talk) 21:33, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@Iazyges: May I ask what you believe my position on the issue is? When you say it's not OR, what do you mean? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@DevilWearsBrioni: Well according to your statement the sentences are OR, as the greek source (Pitouli-Kitsou, p. 212) Is in line and supports the sentence, it cannot be considered original research. Iazyges (talk) 21:41, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh god, dear DevilWearsBrioni, you have dragged everyone in endless disputes, endless edit wars with other users, and then you have brought the case to both the OR Noticeboard and the DR Noticeboard, and yet, in spite of the dispute being FINALLY over, you are refusing to see the facts. We have 1) the fact that the Muslim Chams constituted the vast majority of the muslim population, we have 2) the fact that the Muslim Chams did not want to accept Greek rule over the region and we have 3) the fact that Muslim Chams burned Greek villages and joined the Ottomans against the Greek side... We have indisputable facts and sources. But in spite of all that, you are now disputing what? I am losing track of your objections, dear DevilWearsBrioni. It is hard to follow your logic. Listen, I can no longer stay endlessly on this dispute with you. And if you want to dispute the "Cham Albanians burning Greek villages", then open a new Dispute Resolution procedure in the Noticeboard or something... -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:44, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I must admit i'm confused, you use dear as both a term of affection (at least i hope it is) towards me and also passive agressively against Devilwearspada. @SilentResident: Iazyges (talk) 22:00, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

The dear is more a formality in my case. Usually, with people who do not know for a long time, I tend to use the term dear more frequently than for people whom I have talked alot and know them for a long time. My apologies if it meant personal affection, as I do not know your gender, so I can't use mister or miss for your case. So I use the gender-neutral dear. -- SILENTRESIDENT 22:11, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@Iazyges: You seem to think that my position is that Muslim Chams didn't burn villages. That's not the case. I'm stating that the conclusion that Muslim Chams were treated as enemies by the Greek army because Muslim bands raided villages is synthesis of the material. How could one possibly state that they were treated as enemies because Muslim bands raided villages when none of the sources make the claim? DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 21:50, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I am very confused @DevilWearsBrioni:, the greek source literally says "the cham .... who had strongly anti-Greek feelings had already formed irregular bodies and fought against the Greek army and the Greek body , burning villages in Paramythia and Headlight areas." The source backs it up, I dont understand what you are arguing about or for? Iazyges (talk) 22:00, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@Iazyges: Yes, the Chams burned villages during the war. I have never denied this. But we're discussing why they were treated as enemies prior to this. For example, here's a timeline of the events from one of the source:

Although Muslim Chams were not eager to fight on the side of the Ottoman army during the Balkan Wars, they were nevertheless treated by the Greek army as de facto enemies, while local Christians were enlisted in the Greek forces. For example, a few days after the occupation of the area of Chamouria by the Greek Army, 72 or 78 Muslim notables were executed by a Greek irregular military unit in the religiously mixed town of Paramythia, evidently accused of being traitors.31 During the Balkan War, in late 1912, when Muslim Chams were fighting on the side of the Ottoman Army, and Christian Chams on that of the Greek Army, several local conflicts emerged.

Moreover, the raids by Muslim bands in Autumn as discussed by Tsoutsoumpis are not related to the village burnings that occurred during the war in October. DevilWearsBrioni (talk) 22:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Dear DevilWearsBrioni, do I sense an attempt to make the irregular Muslim Cham bands simply "irregular Muslim bands"? Playing with words.... -- SILENTRESIDENT 22:16, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

DevilWearsBrioni, The Muslim Chams, hated the Greeks (they had strong anti-Greek sentiments), opposed the idea of a Greek rule in their region, and they have ALREADY FORMED irregular bands that raided the Greek villages! And if that was not enough, they joined the Ottomans in the Greek-Ottoman war! How could the Greek side treating them as enemies could be synthesizing for you? -- SILENTRESIDENT 22:04, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Iazyges is correct. Indeed, the sources provided so far, do not allow for the sentence to be considered OR. -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:52, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Final words

@DevilWearsBrioni:, As the matter has been resolved logically, that the sentences are not OR. While the DRN cannot enforce the decisions it makes, I can as per WP:M request that you be blocked from editing an area, should you disrupt the decision made, I do not want to do this, but if you do disrupt it, I will request it, and the admin may grant it. And you are free to appeal the decision, but as @SilentResident: has opted out of any further argument on the subject, it would be less than pointless. Of course you could try your hand at the arbitration committee or the mediation committee, but their decisions are final, and they would very likely reach the same conclusion. While it may seem that I am being unfair, as per WP:M I work with people who dispute, I work for the good of wikipedia. As such I will close this case within 10 minutes. Iazyges (talk) 22:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Here at DRN we only allow comments on the content of the article. Do not under any circumstances discuss the behavior of other editors. --Guy Macon
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
NOTE to participants: DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors here. See Focus on Content. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 10:50, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Indeed, this user was not involved in the dispute before, and yet, it is evident that he too has reverted your edits. I can't stop but wonder why third party users too -besides those involved in the dispute- have reverted your edits, DevilWearsBrioni. Mapping the case and getting a record of the reasons this has led even the third party users who were un-involved to the dispute, to revert your edits couldn't harm the ongoing resolution progress. But these are just my thoughts. If this goes against the resolution rules, then you have my apologies and you can ignore my comment. -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:20, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry about not opening this for discussion right away; I had a bit of a crisis to deal with tonight.

To answer the question above, nuts and bolts case administration things like telling me that I may have missed a user who is involved or arguing that the user really wasn't involved are OK, but I really don't want arguments about who is right and wrong about the page content until I open the discussion. Remember, this is a place where we will have a structured discussion with an impartial arbitrator. If you just unload on each other you will be doing what you did on the article talk page, and we know that doing that failed to result in a resolution. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:02, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Here at DRN we only allow comments on the content of the article. Do not under any circumstances discuss the behavior of other editors. --Guy Macon
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
NOTE to participants: DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors here. See Focus on Content. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 10:50, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Yes great idea Silent! Yes it would be good of Athenean to join the discussion and give his input on why peer reviewed material of Greek scholarship was deleted by him based on a "consensus" reason. Fantastic Silent. Should have thought of that too. I am looking forward to the discussion. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Here at DRN we only allow comments on the content of the article. Do not under any circumstances discuss the behavior of other editors. --Guy Macon
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
NOTE to participants: DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors here. See Focus on Content. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 10:50, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Am I sensing a dose of sarcasm, my dear friend Resnjari? First of all, I am sorry I do not know exactly, nor am I aware of what is going on between you and that user, and although I have seen you tracking him on other talk pages such as the Greco-Italian War's talk page for reasons that are escaping me, it is none of my business, I do not intend to know what is going on between you two, nor I want to get involved in your relation with that person. I have recommended that person to Guy Macon just for the aforementioned simple reason on the previous comment. Nothing more, nothing less from my part. Likewise, I prefer just to wait for Guy Macon's final resolution on the DRN on this dispute, if you don't mind, so we can be done with this prolonged debate as it has become counterproductive and has exhausted me, and I am certain, the same is true for you too. I hope you understand and I wish you a good day, my friend and do not expect more comments/responses from me here on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. -- SILENTRESIDENT 09:31, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Here at DRN we only allow comments on the content of the article. Do not under any circumstances discuss the behavior of other editors. --Guy Macon
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
NOTE to participants: DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors here. See Focus on Content. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 10:50, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Sarcasm??? What do mean ? I am perplexed. I simply agreed with your suggestion as i think it is fantastic. All editors should engage in the discussion that have made recent edits especially of that important type. As i said previously, it would be great to have Athenean take part and have his input about such issues (like about fake consensus he raised, it would be interesting to know what he meant by that as i am ever so curious) that i raised about peer reviewed Greek scholarship and deletions. In the end if Guy Macron thinks that Athenean should not join us then well one cannot have their cake and eat it too as the saying goes. Yet like said, i value Athenean's input want him to know that if he reads this just like i assume he does of other editors like me. All in good faith. Its why i wholeheartedly agree with your suggestion. As for discussions on this matter i have time for it. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:59, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Note: I have not abandoned you. I am dealing with a crisis in real life, but it shouldn't take more than a few more hours. Sorry for the delay. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:26, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry about us. Take your time, it is ok. I hope everything's ok. -- SILENTRESIDENT 21:38, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Hinkley Point_C_nuclear_power_station

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Lancastle on 14:12, 5 August 2016 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Hinkley Point C nuclear power station (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Lancastle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Lklundin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Absolutelypuremilk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Beagel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Dispute overview There has been a good deal of progress at reinstating the deleted material. However, there are two unresolved questions relating to WP:SYNTH: Whether this section contains WP:SYNTH, bother before and after this edit. See this discussion Whether this section contains WP:SYNTH, see this discussion There are several deletions that have since been reverted, but motivated this request for dispute resolution, see this Talk section: Not cross-referencing when text is moved to another article [10] Unhelpful re-wording that is not supported by the source ('may be' rather than the word 'estimate'): [11] When deletion should be used, rather than the more subtle and use of the Talk page Have you tried to resolve this previously? Since raising this dispute, there has been good progress via the talk page. In particular, Absolutelypuremilk and Lklundin have helped by reinstating material and explaining their edits and concerns in more detail. How do you think we can help? By arbitrating on a way forwards, in particular the claims of original research and synthesis of published material. Hinkley Point_C_nuclear_power_station discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer note - The filing party has failed to list the other parties (two of whom are identified in the above statement, but another party who took part in discussion is not identified at all). The filing party has failed to notify the other parties of this filing. Leaving this open to provide the filing party an opportunity to list and identify the other editors. It should be noted that this noticeboard does not "arbitrate" a way forward but facilitates discussion between parties. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:34, 6 August 2016 (UTC) Thank you for you guidance, Robert McClenon. I have included all four parties in the listing. Lancastle (talk) 09:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC) Volunteer note - The filing party listed the other parties (incorrectly, but that has been fixed). The filing party has not notified the other parties. It is the responsibility of the filing party to notify the other parties. By the way, describe the dispute in terms of content, that is, that there is a question about whether certain information should be included, not in terms of contributors, that is, do not say that users are deleting material. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:20, 6 August 2016 (UTC) Thank you, Robert McClenon. I have clarified which aspects of the dispute remain unresolved in terms of content, rather than contributors, but not sure how to notify the other parties, do I use the 'ping' syntax? Lancastle (talk) See the fourth bullet at the top of the page. It tells you how to provide the notice. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:21, 7 August 2016 (UTC) Thank you, Robert McClenon. We are making progress on the talk page and I have done my best to follow the guidance on how to notify the parties. Lancastle (talk) 17:48, 7 August 2016 (UTC) You succeeded in notifying them. Waiting for them to reply as to whether they are willing to discuss here, since discussion here is voluntary. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:53, 7 August 2016 (UTC) Volunteer note - One of the editors states that progress is being made at the article talk page. Since the purpose of this noticeboard is to provide moderated discussion when discussion at the article talk page is unproductive, this thread will be closed without prejudice to allow continued progress at the article talk page, unless other editors state that progress has broken down. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:58, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Comments by Beagel First of all, I would like to confirm that I'm interested to proceed with the dispute resolution. I'm quite flexible about the form or venue of the discussion, so I don't have objections to discuss it here. Saying this, I have to admit that by my understanding there had been recently some progress at the article talk page discussion, so I believe the dispute resolution seems possible. Before the request was submitted here, the talk page discussion was also linked at Wikipedia:No_original research/Noticeboard#Discussion at Talk:Hinkley Point C nuclear power station; however, so far there has been no discussion at WP:OR/N and no contribution to the talk page discussion has not made through WP:OR/N. Therefore I believe there is no objections to discuss the dispute here. I would like to clarify my understanding about the scope of the dispute. By my understanding this is mainly about the content which may or may not to be classified as synthesis of published sources. More specifically, it involves the following issues: inclusion of information concerning renewable energy strike prices. This issue seems by my understanding mainly resokved as there seems to be an agreement to include this information in Renewable energy in the United Kingdom instead of the HPC article; inclusion of the Norwegian or Nord Pool Spot prices in 2015 after the Jonathan Gaventa statement on interconnectors. The source says only that electricity is cheaper in the countries interconncted with the UK but does not provide exact prices. At the moment the article does not include the exact prices but the dispute is still not closed. inclusion of details about Hanhikivi, Olkiluoto and Flamanville NPPs as also information about the safety of EPR. Currently this information is included in this article. There seems to be progress on this discussion but it is not solved yet. In addition to these, additional minor dispute is about the composition of the lead of this article. There is a dispute if some details should be included also in the lead or is it enough to have these details on the relevant sections. Particularly, this is about mentioning the National Audit Office in the lead and the status of EDF (mainly [French] state-owned) and CGN ([and Chinese] state-owned). Beagel (talk) 19:48, 7 August 2016 (UTC) Additional comments concerning provided diffs: [12] The claim of "no cross references" is not understandable. Edit summaries on both articles include the link to another article, so it is in line with the copyright requirements of copying and moving text inside of Wikipedia. As for making link in HPC article to Nuclear power in the United Kingdom , that article is already linked as see also hatnote in the Criticism and organised opposition section, and according to the linking rules this is sufficient. [13] This seems to be a minor formatting issue. [14] This diff includes a number of edits, including edits by the filling editor, so it is hard to comment. Beagel (talk) 20:09, 7 August 2016 (UTC) Thank you, Beagel. I am happy that we are now making progress via the talk page. It was difficult to progress where deletes were marked WP:SYNTH without elaboration, and my main concern was Wikipedia:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH_is_not_presumed. I also agree that formatting issues are minor and should not be part of the dispute resolution. Lancastle (talk) 11:01, 8 August 2016 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.