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Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
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Information for administrators processing requests

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Saucysalsa30

Saucysalsa30 topic-banned from Kurds and Kurdistan for six months

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Saucysalsa30

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:07, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Saucysalsa30 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 or Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kurds and Kurdistan

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

18:37, 29 October 2022: Revert 1.
21:58, 29 October 2022: Revert 2.
23:01, 29 October 2022: Revert 3.
03:09, 27 October 2022: Talk page comments that may run afoul of WP:BLP.

As explained in full at BLP/N, Saucysalsa30 reverted three times in less than 24 hours to accuse Vermont Democrat Peter Galbraith (who sought the gubernatorial nomination in 2016) of singlehandedly concocting ("his claim of") additional Iraqi chemical attacks on Kurdish civilians following the end of the Iran–Iraq War (during Galbraith's tenure on the United States Senate Committee on Foreign Relations), but "Despite Galbraith's claim, physicians from the United Nations, International Red Cross, and Turkey did not find any evidence of chemically inflicted wounds." Saucysalsa30's reverts actively removed the subject's direct response to this accusation and incorrectly portrayed Galbraith as the only source for the chemical attacks reported. Absent a consensus on whether (and how) to include criticism of Galbraith's report, I believe that the material should be excluded per our BLP policy, as I explained on the talk page—not edit warred in over and over and over again.

Meanwhile, at Talk:Peter Galbraith (albeit prior to being notified of the AP2 sanctions), Saucysalsa30 made additional unsourced claims that Galbraith acted as a "controversial politician making a claim and attempting legislative action on something that wasn't true to push his long-running political agenda that he would eventually and profoundly benefit from financially", which heightened my BLP concerns. Furthermore, Saucysalsa30 incorrectly labelled my own edits to the article as "vandalism" and "disruptive editing."

To me, this behavior is unacceptable in any article that falls within a DS topic area. And, while I drafted this as an AP2 complaint, I doubt that the Kurds and Kurdistan topic area benefits by having an editor who incorrectly states that only 100 people died in the Halabja massacre (which is not consistent with declassified Iraqi military intelligence documents), or that the Anfal campaign was "made up" by Kanan Makiya (citing a source that directly, repeatedly contradicts this assertion).

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

18:09, 29 November 2020: Blocked 60 hours by Drmies for edit warring following a BOOMERANG at WP:AN3.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above, as well as these diffs: [1], [2].

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Diff.

Saucysalsa30 incorrectly states that this diff constitutes a formal warning to stop WP:HOUNDING him from EvergreenFir. However, the note, which does not mention HOUNDING, concerned a dispute at just one article (Racism in the Arab world), whereas "Hounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia." Furthermore, the context is very different from what Saucysalsa30 describes: At the exact same timestamp (23:41, 31 January 2021) EvergreenFir left identical warning messages on both of our talk pages ([3], [4]) advising both Saucysalsa30 and myself "to WP:DISENGAGE either from that page or from interactions with that editor." Saucysalsa30 responded to EvergreenFir's message with a lengthy tirade accusing me of "slander," prompting EvergreenFir to post a second, more forceful warning at User talk:Saucysalsa30 at 05:39, 1 February 2021. It seems evident that Saucysalsa30 frequently misstates or exaggerates what diffs (and other sources) say—something that was recently noted by several editors at ANI. For example, Praxidicae referred to Saucysalsa30's "greatly exaggerated claims," while Drmies pointed out: "That diff doesn't say what you want it to say. It's really simple. ... And you are either willfully misrepresenting me or you don't get it."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:24, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While irrelevant to Saucysalsa30's disruptive editing at Peter Galbraith, the claim that Qahramani44 or I edit-warred to reinstate a WP:COPYVIO at Ba'athism in early 2021 is incorrect. In actuality, a COPYVIO was identified by Saucysalsa30, Qahramani44 rewrote the text, and Berrely incorrectly stated that the issue had not been resolved. However, Berrely quickly corrected his mistake: "Qahramani44, apologies, I was looking at the edit summary of the previous diff and got confused. I have reinstated the edit." Berrely's self-revert should have been the end of it, but Saucysalsa30 continued to incorrectly insist that "Berrely: You were right the first time, as the content still contains some copyright violation," citing this as justification for additional reverts.
As this thread makes clear, EvergreenFir did not consider Saucysalsa30 to be "on equal footing" with Qahramani44 and myself at the time.
Saucysalsa30's description of HandThatFeeds as an administrator is incorrect; the latter's userpage states "This user is not an administrator and has no desire to be one."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:18, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Saucysalsa30

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Saucysalsa30

The last paragraph is false accusations and he had also hounded me on Anfal page, where he spent days bludgeoning and attacking multiple users when consensus and sourcing was against him. His first edit in that Talk page was to attack me with similar misrepresentations/insults, which I and others refuted him on such as this[5].

TheTimesAreAChanging made this request right after an edit with personal attacks and falsities about me, including the very first sentence[6]: "Saucysalsa30 has a reputation as a remarkably extreme pro-Iraqi Ba'th Party partisan editor". I have no such "reputation", this is a WP:PA violation.

While he's WP:HOUNDING/attacked me in the past and an admin gave him a formal warning to stop doing so, in this latest instance, TheTimesAreAChanging followed me to an article where he had no prior activity, and engaged me in his edit summaries. He noticed on 10/27 I had activity on Peter Galbraith [7] in which I fixed failed-verification/OR/BLP violations, and explained my changes in the Talk page with sources. His edit summaries comprised false accusations/attacks and OR, which I refuted in the Talk page.

Contrary to the claim, TheTimesAreAChanging started edit warring, with his first edit on the article being a partial revert, and made 3 reverts in less than 24 hours.

Revert1: 08:18, 29 October 2022: Partial revert of my edit with a false accusation/attacks in the edit summary
Revert2: 21:22, 29 October 2022: Full revert by TTAAC
Revert3: 22:45, 29 October 2022: Reverting all additions I made to the article

He did not bother to explain his changes in the Talk page, like I had, demonstrating an unwillingness to build consensus.

This accusation by TheTimes is false: Saucysalsa30 made additional unsourced claims that Galbraith acted as ... and he deliberately misrepresents it by leaving out the last part of the quote: ", already noted in this Talk page and article."[8] It's clear that TheTimes' didn't read Talk page and article before making this accusation. Galbraith's controversial relationship with and financial benefits from Iraqi Kurdish groups was discussed in two Talk page sections, and there's a section on the article about it.

TheTimes' other accusation is wrong. I never said Galbraith "singlehandedly concocted it", and his embellishment demonstrates the deceptiveness of his request. Galbraith drafted a bill making the claim he championed before the US government. Saying "his claim" is correct. Here is a definition of "claim". Galbraith made a statement that something was true, with the addition of not being proven, and introduced legislation in the US government.

TheTimesAreAChanging had been indefinitely blocked before on the topic of American politics[9] for disruptive editing and not gaining consensus, and in this case he did not seek consensus either. He was also blocked for violating the topic ban. He later requested for it to be lifted, and given his continued disruptive behavior on Peter Galbraith and other articles the the original topic ban was for, it appears justified to reinstate it. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 19:30, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In his addendum[10], TheTimesAreAChanging admits to being warned by EvergreenFir to WP:DISENGAGE from me yet has still hounded and engaged me on Wikipedia multiple times since then as I proved. In fact, he had hounded me in that very situation in which EvergreenFir had to intervene. On Jan 19-20, 2021, TheTimesAreAChanging and another editor Qahramani44 stalked me, immediately following an unrelated content dispute, over to Racism in the Arab world and Ba'athism where I had just a few days earlier fixed copyvio and other issues. TTAAC had no prior activity on the first article/Talk page, and only previously had a few sporadic unilateral reverts on the second. Qahramani44 had no prior edits on either article/Talk page. Here is my initial diff on Racism in the Arab world [11]. Qahramani44's first edit on the page [12] and TTAAC's first edit [13] came only after mine, and they made a number of Talk page comments directed at me and edit warring following that. EvergreenFir had to intervene, removing TTAAC's last Talk page comment and telling him to "Stop the bullshit". TTAAC defiantly reverted it[14] calling EvergreenFir's actions "wildly inappropriate". EvergreenFir re-reverted this[15] and temporarily protected the article.[16]

The story on Ba'athism is the same. I made my first edit [17]. TheTimesAreAChanging's edit[18] and Qahramani44's[19] stalked me to this article too, with more comments and edit warring to follow by them like in the other article. EvergreenFir intervened here too temporarily protecting the article[20] and EvergreenFir agreed with the copyvio I originally fixed when attempt to re-introduce it was made.[21]

Uninvolved editors have politely asked TTAAC to stop harassing me and other editors, such as [22][23][24][25] In one example, admin HandThatFeeds had to correct TTAAC's false charges against an editor multiple times: "Why are you using the “tenacious hacks” comment to rebut GregKaye’s statement that (sic) you are the first person to accuse them of tendentious editing? Are you not understanding the difference in those words and conflating their use of them with your accusation of their behavior?" and "I think you’re misreading GregKay’s statements. ... Nothing in those quotes is worthy of sanction."

In an attempt to defend himself in an ANI section about his conduct, he falsely accused me of making a real-world threat/crime in August 2022, claiming that I somehow know his address and sending him "fan mail" making a threat. He got the dates wrong in this ridiculous accusation too; his attacking me came in January 2021 (EvergreenFir intervention case), not March 2021 as he falsely states where I had only 2 unrelated edits[26][27], so his "during the height of our previous dispute" is a proven false statement. TTAAC's accusation was elevated to ArbCom by the admin Barkeep49[28][29][30][31], where it was presumably thrown out as a ludicrously false accusation. At this point, his false accusation about me making of real-world threat is an egregious WP:PA violation. (talk) 01:59, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extra note: Repeatedly, TheTimesAreAChanging casts false aspersions based on not understanding what words mean. Like his previously noted confusion about the word "claim", and his accusations refuted by HandThatFeeds, he doesn't know the definition of the word "slander", which he believes only means making legal threats[32], of which I've never done. Here's the definition: "the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation". Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:08, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding [33]: There's still no defense from TheTimesAreAChanging has for the proven fact that he very deliberately stalked and attacked me and engaged in disruptive behavior on multiple instances, such as in January 2021, August 2022, and most recently in October 2022, as I proved above, among other occasions not detailed here.

TheTimesAreAChanging's stalking, false accusations, refusal to engage in consensus building and constructive Talk page discussion, and personal attacks on Peter Galbraith has already been proven since my first statement section[34]. His continued attempt at shifting blame instead of explaining his disruptive behavior is because he knows he did wrong. Let's recall the situation on Peter Galbraith happened because TheTimes chose to stalk and harass me in the first place.

TheTimesAreAChanging's latest claim is wrong. As I already provided above, EvergreenFir did take my side and reverted Qahramani44 for re-introducing a copyright violation [35]. Quoting EvergreenFir from Feb 1, 2021: "(Undid revision 1004094635 by Qahramani44 (talk) with tweaks. WP:STATUSQUO had copyvio issues. These two versions are very similar, but i tweaked it a bit. Qahramani44 you are party to this dispute and edit war. Please do not continue warring)" Berrely is not an admin and was an uninvolved editor who was misled by Qahramani44's erroneous statement. Yes, you are correct in that I fixed Berrely's misled error which he made on Jan 19[36]. EvergreenFir agreed with me that it was a copyright violation because on Feb 1, the end result on this whole situation was EvergreenFir removing the copyright vio, putting to rest Qahramani44's and TTAAC's disruption and Berrely's misled error.[37] EvergreenFir would not have done that if TTAAC's and Qahramani44's editing was not disruptive. I was correct in removing a copyright violation.

In that case, it's good that HandThatFeeds is not an admin. It means someone with no responsibility to do so proved in detail that TTAAC was making false accusations against a good editor with the ANI report, even telling TTAAC to "Just drop this diversion".[38] They weren't the only one, either. Admins didn't appear to bother with TTAAC's report because it was based on false representations and accusations, and no action was taken against GregKaye. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 06:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Note 1 to @Acroterion and other admins: The above statement is now 500 words according to wordcounttools.com. Kindly requesting to go above 500 words to point out other disruptive editing and conduct and casting false aspersions by TheTimesAreAChanging on Peter Galbraith and other articles he mentions such as Anfal campaign, and pointing out other recent misconduct against me personally like his ludicrous and self-disproving accusation of real-life threats in an ANI discussion on his disruptive editing and personal attacks? Also, I just noticed the below clarifying comment to ParadiseChronicle had been moved here, which it wasn't here originally.) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 19:35, 30 October 2022‎ (UTC)[reply]

(Note 2 to admins: With this 'addendum'[39] added by TheTimesAreAChanging, he has increased his request to 708 words, far past the 500 word limit, when copying everything under "Request concerning Saucysalsa30" to the end of the added content. Like proven of his other accusations, these are likewise deceitful misrepresentations and fluff). Even if we go with the "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy" and under, it's still 623 words. Only if we omit the diffs and other information critical to the statement, it gets close to 500). Saucysalsa30 (talk) 23:35, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Note 3 to @Acroterion: Thanks for your response. In addition to demonstrating I was hounded/harassed on 2 separate articles in the case EvergreenFir had to intervene in the first place, I took the opportunity to point out a false accusation that TheTimesAreAChanging made against me in August 2022 that I made real-world threat/crime against him. He's yet to receive consequence for this excessive WP:PA violation) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:18, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It appears my Note 3 practically overlapped with Acroterion's, so I missed their response before publishing. Regarding [40], thanks for clearing that up. This would mean that other than the Peter Galbraith issue, which I've demonstrated TTAAC hounded me on, none of his other charges are relevant seeing as they had already been brought up by TTAAC in relevant ANI sections. I refuted his misrepresentations in any case. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:24, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Note 4 to @Acroterion: Re [41]: With Barkeep49's input (thanks Barkeep!)[42], it appears ArbCom hadn't considered it in the first place, not being at their level of action. Even if it is put aside despite the gravity of such a lie (one that could carry legal charges against me given the false accusation describes criminal offense) and severe WP:PA violation this false accusation entails, it is still evidence of extreme dishonesty. For clarification and follow-up, would you suggest that I report the false accusation to ANI given it wasn't taken up at ArbCom's level after all? Thanks.) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 02:49, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Note 5 re @Paradise Chronicle: Unfortunately, Paradise Chronicle is also guilty of WP:HOUNDING me on Peter Galbraith, with their only edit there[43] being made right after I had activity on the page, within a few hours of this AE request being created[44], and in less than 2 hours of my first response on this AE request.[45]. PC is wrong in saying "no-one opposed it" about the change he mentions in his statement, seeing how I kindly asked for Buidhe's approval[46] on their re-introducing poor content, and it didn't have better contextualization as P.C. claimed. Waiting on a response from buidhe and the hope that PC would fix their error, I didn't respond further. This was only one change of many made by PC on the article which were unilateral, and the others had no Talk discussion by PC regarding including or re-inclusion content. To give just a few of many examples of POV and/or unilateral edits on Anfal campaign (not including other articles PC makes edits on despite being formally warned on the topic of Kurds and Kurdistan:[47][48][49]. PC's warning[50] was for "Paradise Chronicle is warned to avoid casting aspersions and repeating similar uncollegial conduct in the future." It is unfortunate that PC has not heeded by these warnings as shown in this AE request and on Anfal campaign, and again, I am not mentioning other articles that PC edits on in this topic area in the same manner). Saucysalsa30 (talk) 20:06, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Note 6 to @Acroterion: Thanks for your response! I will take no further action then on that. I appreciate Barkeep49 having taken the initiative even if he had removed the whole ANI section which included other conduct violations by TTAAC. These kinds of personal attacks are not uncommon for TTAAC, as I gave a few diffs including in my first statement regarding the Peter Galbraith issue, the unacceptable insult "Saucysalsa30 has a reputation as a remarkably extreme pro-Iraqi Ba'th Party partisan editor". His last block[51] had also been for personal attacks, on a rare occasion that an editor had challenged his disruptive editing. There's other cases of him calling me a child and other insults for no good reason, but I'll keep it recent. I will note for clarity that TTAAC has already brought up all (refuted) accusations except the current Peter Galbraith matter before in ANI and other boards. In staying current, we have a case then just in the last week where he 1) hounded/harassed me, 2) made direct insults, 3) cast false aspersions, 4) disruptive editing including edit warring.) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 20:58, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Note 7 re[52] I was not the first to bring up old disagreements, but only did so because 1) I will address misrepresentations, personal attacks, and aspersions (most of the 'tendentiousness' here and on those articles), and 2) it demonstrates here that TTAAC is not a editor who suddenly came across me, but someone who has actively harassed me over a long period of time. There isn't such tendentiousness with other editors. In the two most recent instances as already proven: in the first, consensus, sourcing, neutrality were overwhelmingly on my side against TTAAC which he didn't take kindly, and in the second (Galbraith), I provided reliable, balanced sourcing and explanation (not a REDFLAG bibliographical note contradicted by any books/articles on the topic), pointed out OR+BLP violations that even TTAAC agreed with most, but I was still stalked and insulted in both cases because TTAAC didn't like that.) Saucysalsa30 (talk) 04:55, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note 8 re:[53] Thanks for your response Swarm, but it appears there's a misunderstanding, as I didn't make a false claim. This[54] and telling him to "Stop the bullshit" by an admin or block for personal attacks isn't a false claim. If you're referring to HandThatFeeds, it's new to me that non-admins could have stylized usernames (I've only seen admins have those), so that was an error on my part, not a false claim, and does not change that an uninvolved editor repeatedly refuted TTAAC for making false accusations against GregKaye, as he does here. I proved and demonstrated multiple examples of stalking and harassment across multiple articles with diffs. This includes the most recent case on Peter Galbraith, which aside from the demonstrated hounding me a couple days after my edits on an article TTAAC had no prior activity, included blatant personal attacks and casting aspersions in edit summaries such as[55].

For the record in case this was missed earlier, I didn't "introduce" calling Galbraith a "liar" or a "conflict of interest" as TTAAC falsely claimed in this AE section and in this edit summary[56], which I'd disproven earlier here. I didn't add or edit anything related to the "Oil controversy" section, which describes Galbraith's conflict of interest and which has been there for over a decade, that TTAAC accuses me of in that edit summary. TTAAC is misleading with "controversial politician making a claim..." comment because I made that in the Talk page not the article as he implies, and there's a whole well-sourced section about it in the article. You can see me explain that clearly here[57], summarized with "This has already been talked about in a couple other Talk sections too and has been in the article and sourced since the 2000s.". Therefore, the premise laid out by TTAAC is false as I have not introduced such a matter as alleged. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 10:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by RAN1

I'm only filing this statement since I DS-alerted Saucysalsa30 (in fact, my alert is the only one that appears in the DS tag search). I only became aware of Saucysalsa30's actions through TTAAC's BLP post. The post ran long, so I didn't look through any of the 10+ diffs in it, and assumed this was a recent development and that Saucysalsa30 hadn't been alerted before today. I researched the relevant citation, verified it and reverted Saucysalsa30 because they claimed the material failed verification before their edit summary war with TTAAC. I then alerted both them and TTAAC on the Kurds DS. I didn't think there would be a prior deleted notice if this was at BLPN, so I didn't see Saucysalsa30 had been alerted 3 months ago until after this AE section showed up in my watchlist. RAN1 (talk) 02:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@RAN1 Just want to point out for the sake of balance that TheTimesAreAChanging received the same alert before from the same editor ParadiseChronicle on July 31. [58] Saucysalsa30 (talk) 03:18, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Paradise Chronicle

As I have been mentioned I want to explain a bit. I gave the DS awareness note on Kurds and Kurdistan to both editors here and here as they appear to have an issue in the topic area and if only one knows about the DS the other editor might be surprised (blocked, TB'd) that there apply different rules for the topic area than in the "normal" wikipedia.

That said I believe the issue escalated into an ArbCom case per email in which case some Admins might be more familiar with the issue between the two.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:27, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On the AE side for Kurds and Kurdistan. I also have noticed that Saucysalsa30 is rather doubtful of Kurdish victims during the Halabja chemical attack or during the Al Anfal campaign. For the Admins and also the reporting and discussing editors sake I'd say its more efficient to strongly warn (once more and a temporary block is in place) them for bludgeoning and disruptive editing as their numerous talk page edits are often of 1000s of bytes with a lot of text not really on the topic and to produce and read the diffs is rather a tiring work.

At Peter Galbraith they are number 1 Here and assembled a 30% share of added content in 3 days.

and at Al Anfal they are way off the top here with a ca. 2/3 share of added content in the entire existence of the article within less than 2 months. This is way more than all editors together in the top 10 combined.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:27, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Saucysalsa30, yes I meant to link to the talk pages. Talk page edits is what WP:BLUDGEON is about. To find your argument which is at best one or two lines within the several WP:WALLOFTEXTs doesn't help to find consensus. Read WP:WALLOFTEXT, its very descriptive of your talk page edits.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:26, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the last phrase of their answer to me, there is a good example for the editing of Saucysalsa30. Not an issue in the current discussion they bring an edit of me. For what, lack of consensus? I opened discussion on it the same day of my edit and no-one opposed it. The edit was on the existence and location of detention camps and the opened discussion included an invitation to reword the section. Saucysalsa30 answered in the discussion but didn't change anything. And now I have searched diffs and texted for probably about half an hour for an answer on 1 phrase in 1 of their WALLOFTEXT. Imagine dealing with several phrases in about 30 WALLOFTEXTS by Saucysalsa30.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:40, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone who reads the two edits above and doesn't know why I wrote it, I want to point out that my two edits above (not the first one) were an answer to this edit which Saucysalsa30 removed the same day.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:58, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If this accusations of Saucysalsa30 are going to get an issue, let me know, but I am not going to invest time into answering to an edit that a few hours later gets withdrawn.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:52, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Saucysalsa30

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

@Saucysalsa30: A 1500+ word response is not even close to 500, and permission to exceed limits should be requested first, not ignored and blown through. Please reduce your comments to the required limits, or your comments may be truncated. Verbosity is not a virtue, and your history of talkpage discussions includes walls of text that are not appropriate in this venue. Acroterion (talk) 13:04, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Saucysalsa: yes, because they've replied. So can you, just keep it short and to the point, and please resist the temptation to gradually add back what you removed. Part of the complaint involves your tendency to bludgeon discussions, which will not be tolerated here. Acroterion (talk) 22:14, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unless @Barkeep49: has anything that they can mention concerning the "fan mail" allegations, I'm going to set that aside as old news, now resolved, that was within the remit of the arbitrators, not this noticeboard. It does not appear to be directly germane to the issue at hand. Acroterion (talk) 02:15, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If T&S and arbitrators did not take action in August, it's not going to happen here. Acroterion (talk) 02:23, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would have liked to see arbcom take action in this case owing to the sensitive evidence but the general opinion of other arbs seemed to be that the incident did not rise to the level of ArbCom action. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:29, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the note. Since private evidence can’t be submitted or considered here, the “fan mail” issue must be set aside. Acroterion (talk) 02:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Saucysalsa30's latest note: ANI is not an appropriate place to discuss anything that involves private information, and is for current, ongoing problems that require immediate attention, not things that happened in August. If the arbs declined to act, then the subject is closed, as it must be here. Please do not litigate that issue here or anywhere else, I am focused on conduct on the relevant topic areas. I am reviewing the other material, please resist the urge to enlarge on the dispute. Acroterion (talk) 12:31, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My general impression on reading through the extremely lengthy talkpage discussions and diffs is that there is a thread of WP:IDHT, which extends to this discussion, in which Saucysalsa is focused on portraying other editors as aggressors or rehashing old disagreements after being advised to stop. The sheer volume of words is indicative of a tendency to bludgeon discussions, even here. I can't say that either TTAAC or Saucysalsa30 have been shining examples of civility or righteous conduct, but I'm seeing a consistent thread of tendentiousness in Saucysalsa's overall conduct with respect to Iraqi attacks on Kurds and with respect to Galbraith. Acroterion (talk) 01:36, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Saucysalsa's insistence on attacking the source of the complaint rather than responding to its substance, together with their tendentious behavior in the subject area and in this discussion, lead me to conclude that a topic ban, broadly construed, on Kurdistan-related topics is needed to deal with their consistent battleground conduct. This includes Peter Galbraith, Iraqi use of chemical weapons, and related matters. I'm setting the topic ban for six months. Acroterion (talk) 00:10, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I read all that and reached the same conclusions as Acro. Report seems legitimate and actionable, and SS’s extreme bludgeoning is largely unrelated. Instead, they argue that they are a victim and they are being harassed by the OP, and falsely claim that OP has been warned for that. This was highly misleading, and the misleading, attacking, bludgeoning and disrupting of the process here appears to be a reflection of the problem. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 02:26, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

TheTranarchist

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning TheTranarchist

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: RAN1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:51, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: TheTranarchist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender and sexuality#Standard discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

22:39, 11 November 2022 starting an off-topic argument with InverseZebra.
23:41, 11 November 2022 continuing that argument.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

None.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, at 21:39, 23 January 2022.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

TheTranarchist made a post on 4 October at Talk:LGB Alliance that includes Monque 2021, a book discussion that the author explicitly states is not a summary, and Simon 2021, a master's thesis which concludes with a section titled "A Polemic on [Gender Critical Feminists]". A month later, InverseZebra replied and complained about those sources, and Newimpartial then disputed the complaint.

After InverseZebra posted about Monque's use of the term TERF at 21:24, 11 November 2022, TheTranarchist posted the above diffs, starting and sustaining an off-topic argument with InverseZebra and Newimpartial.

@LokiTheLiar: InverseZebra clearly wasn't here to edit an encyclopedia, and that's exactly why I filed this. There was nothing InverseZebra posted there that would improve the content. TheTranarchist could have posted: Still haven't seen a single real reason not to include it. Still a peer-reviewed source last I checked, and that would have done it. Instead they posted a page of text that turned the topic into a forum thread. RAN1 (talk) 23:38, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified.

Discussion concerning TheTranarchist

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by TheTranarchist

Statement by (username)

Statement by DanielRigal

I don't think it is really correct to describe that first diff as "starting an off-topic argument" as the argument is already in progress. Furthermore, I suspect that InverseZebra, who is rapidly sliding towards either an indef or a topic ban here, may be being intentionally disruptive and trying to provoke such responses. Of course, it would have been better if TheTranarchist hadn't risen to it but I can't help but sympathise with her for doing so. I don't think any sanction or action is required other than maybe advising her to try not to feed those who show signs of troll-like behaviour. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:45, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statment by Loki

I think this filing should be discarded as obviously frivolous. Even if everything the filer claimed were true, it's not a violation of discretionary sanctions to argue about the content of a page on its talk page. The argument in question was about whether a source used a slur or not; it's relevant in that context whether "TERF" is a slur. Loki (talk) 22:49, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

How can starting an "off-topic argument" be a violation of discretionary sanctions involving the subject? That seems rather contradictory. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:28, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning TheTranarchist

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

InverseZebra

InverseZebra blocked indef as a normal admin action. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 03:25, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning InverseZebra

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: RAN1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:52, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: InverseZebra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender and sexuality#Standard discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

23:03, 11 November 2022 arguing off-topic with TheTranarchist.
01:06, 12 November 2022 ditto.
03:04, 12 November 2022 ditto with Newimpartial.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

None.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, at 22:55, 30 July 2022.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

TheTranarchist made a post on 4 October at Talk:LGB Alliance that includes Monque 2021, a book discussion that the author explicitly states is not a summary, and Simon 2021, a master's thesis which concludes with a section titled "A Polemic on [Gender Critical Feminists]". A month later, InverseZebra replied and complained about those sources, and Newimpartial then disputed the complaint.

After InverseZebra posted about Monque's use of the term TERF at 21:24, 11 November 2022, TheTranarchist made an off-topic post about the term at 22:39. InverseZebra then proceeded to make the first response, then the second response after TheTranarchist replied at 23:41, then the third after Newimpartial replied at 02:05 on 12 November.

@Shibbolethink: I filed this because I think this is actionable and don't think this is complicated. The ANI topic was not drawing in uninvolved admins to apply AE, so here we are. RAN1 (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Shibbolethink: I don't see the need to wait 20 hours for the topic ban to become closeable. RAN1 (talk) 22:29, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

InverseZebra has finally been indeffed, I agree with SideSwipe9th that this should be closed. RAN1 (talk) 23:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified.

Discussion concerning InverseZebra

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by InverseZebra

Statement by Shibbolethink

See below, obvious content dispute is obvious. This is an inappropriate use of WP:AE. RAN1, you would be much better served by bringing these things to WP:3O or WP:DRN in the future.— Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 22:12, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@RAN1, there are multiple proposals on the ANI thread which are clearly approaching consensus to do things to resolve obvious editor misconduct. I am not sure how this AE brings anything closer to resolution or consensus, rather than drawing the entire thing out further unnecessarily... — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 22:25, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with @Sideswipe9th, all 3 of these should be procedurally closed as moot and unnecessary. RAN1 should be advised to be more selective about which things they bring to AE. (and that such behavior can, in some instances, be construed as WP:FORUMSHOPping — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 23:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sideswipe9th

InverseZebra has just been indeffed by RickinBaltimore ([59]). Can all three of these discussions be closed as moot please, as there doesn't seem to be a reason for them to be here. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:51, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

Considering that the subject editor is indeffed, and CBANs and TBANs are under consideration at ANI, this report is totally unnecessary. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:49, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning InverseZebra

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Newimpartial

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Newimpartial

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: RAN1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:52, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Newimpartial (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender and sexuality#Standard discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

22:55, 4 November 2022 claiming that because editors cannot use original interpretations of primary sources in article content, they cannot use interpretation to determine whether a primary source is used in the article, contrary to policy at WP:PRIMARY: Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.
17:53, 5 November 2022 ditto, it is simply not the job of editors to determine whether a reliable source has {{tq|properly sourced itself}} ~~and also accusing InverseZebra of POV axe-grinding~~. Amended 01:16, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
17:22, 7 November 2022 ditto, claiming that examining peer-reviewed sources is out-of-scope on talk pages.
02:05, 12 November 2022 arguing off-topic with InverseZebra.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

None.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, at 22:55, 30 July 2022

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

TheTranarchist made a post on 4 October at Talk:LGB Alliance that includes Monque 2021, a book discussion that the author explicitly states is not a summary, and Simon 2021, a master's thesis which concludes with a section titled "A Polemic on [Gender Critical Feminists]". A month later, InverseZebra replied and complained about those sources, and Newimpartial then disputed the complaint.

Newimpartial's response includes the above diffs. They consistently insisted that any editor review of the sources was OR and therefore inappropriate, disrupting discussion and prompting an off-topic argument between TheTranarchist and InverseZebra, to which they became a party in the last diff.

@Newimpartial: I take issue with bringing up OR to defend primary research when it says to be careful about misuse. It becomes a conduct issue when you repeatedly insist that primary sources are undebatable because OR. RAN1 (talk) 23:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Newimpartial: That's what I got out of [e]ditors are not really supposed to factor in their original interpretations of primary sources in determining article content and the like. We can only repeat what others said in the content, but that isn't true for deciding whether to repeat them. RAN1 (talk) 00:32, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified.

Discussion concerning Newimpartial

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Newimpartial

This filing seems more than a little bit bizarre. I would not have thought that my argument, that the editor in question was engaged in original interpretation (in fact, misinterpretation) of a WP:PRIMARY source, would be sufficiently controversial as to lead to an AE filing. Clearly I have been seeking attention in the wrong ways all these years, when all I had to do was to make this obvious argument. :p Newimpartial (talk) 22:11, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

RAN1, your statement that I consistently insisted that any editor review of the sources was OR and therefore inappropriate is simply inaccurate. Also, if anyone had any issues with my conduct at Talk:LGB Alliance they had every opportunity to raise those issues at my own Talk. I don't understand why you felt this filing (or the one against TheTranarchist) was remotely necessary. It looks to me like some ridiculous impulse towards BOTHSIDESism - and the "other side" that was crusading in Talk:LGB Alliance in the first place has sonce been indef-blocked as a result of the ANI filing. Newimpartial (talk) 22:53, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And RAN1, I did not repeatedly insist that primary sources are undebatable because OR. Please strike your unfounded allegation. My position throughout that discussion was that each source must be reliable for the claim for which it is cited, and that no reasonable argument had been made that the piece in question was reliable for the purpose for which it was used (namely, that at least one scholarly article referred to the Alliance as "anti-trans"). Newimpartial (talk) 00:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning your latest comment, RAN1, I did say that, but I also specified The slight of hand you are doing between fact and opinion - essentially, accusing sources of being biased in service of your own biases - isn't based on SO policy and really ought to be ignored in determining article content, then Advocating the removal of content cited to academic sources because an editor happens to disagree with said content is simply not how Wikipedia works and subsequently the following:

The statement in mainspace for which the Monque source is currently used (as one of two sources) is, The LGB Alliance has been described ... by articles in two scholarly journals as "trans-exclusionary". The idea that the article in question is not appropriate for this attributed statement in mainspace reads like special pleading not based in any of the WP:UPPERCASE to which you have gesticulated in this conversation.

Your accusation that I repeatedly insist that primary sources are undebatable because OR is not, I think, bourne out by the actual discussion as it transpired. Newimpartial (talk) 00:55, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Red-tailed hawk: I didn't cite or even refer to a Masters' thesis at Talk:LGB Alliance, at any time. I don't know what you're talking about.

Statement by Shibbolethink

I got the hell out of this space a few months ago due to how much disruption is present, but I would overall consider myself "uninvolved" in this dispute and do not remember how Newimpartial felt about any of the old disputes and don't think it's particularly important to look. I have an inkling that they and I have disagreed a few times in the past. I have never heard of RAN1 before.

Regardless of that, this seems overall to be an extremely clear content dispute and thus inappropriate for AE. Nothing here is particularly actionable from an AE perspective. OP should be admonished for bringing an obvious content dispute to AE, and directed to pursue much more appropriate avenues like WP:3O, WP:RFCs, and WP:DRN in the future. This is a waste of everyone's time here. User:RAN1, if I were you, I would actually strongly consider withdrawing this.— Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 22:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

see this ANI discussion where several editors tell RAN1 filing here at AE is a bad idea. They were right. — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 22:17, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statment by Loki

Just like above, I think this filing should be discarded as obviously frivolous. Even if everything the filer claimed were true, it's not a violation of discretionary sanctions to argue about the content of a page on its talk page. Loki (talk) 22:50, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DanielRigal

I'm struggling to see what Newimpartial has done wrong except maybe allow themself to get slightly more wound up by an argumentative and disruptive editor than is advisable. I can't see how that is sanctionable. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:05, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

Hard smelly trout for RAN1 for this. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:50, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Red-tailed hawk

Ordinarily, a master's thesis is not considered reliable, though some might be if they are particularly influential and widely cited in their field (like A Symbolic Analysis of Relay and Switching Circuits). But frankly I don't see evidence that the master's thesis that the filer wants to cite as being one of these. While the existence of the thesis technically defeats WP:OR claims, it doesn't defeat issues related to WP:NPOV (since we only care about things written about in reliable sources under that policy). That being said, I have no idea what this thesis has to do with actions by Newimpartial, who does not appear to have made any contentious edits that cite that thesis.

If you want something to examine about Newimpartial's recent history, I would point to a clear case where they inserted a BLP violation into an article on a journalist rather than following WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE, but I don't think that alone is sufficient to warrant an AE complaint since they're not edit warring the BLP violation back into the article. It seems reasonable to close this thread without action. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:45, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Newimpartial

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 318: / Line 318: @@
 ::{{talk quote|The statement in mainspace for which the Monque source is currently used (as one of two sources) is, ''The LGB Alliance has been described ... by articles in two scholarly journals as "trans-exclusionary".'' The idea that the article in question is not appropriate for this attributed statement in mainspace reads like special pleading not based in any of the WP:UPPERCASE to which you have gesticulated in this conversation.}}
 ::Your accusation that I {{tq|repeatedly insist that primary sources are undebatable because OR}} is not, I think, bourne out by the actual discussion as it transpired. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 00:55, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
+Red-tailed hawk: I didn't cite or even refer to a Masters' thesis at [[Talk:LGB Alliance]], at any time. I don't know what you're talking about.
 ====Statement by Shibbolethink====

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