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Pallava dynasty

I have added new info on Pallava dynasty's page with an apt citation. A user is determined to remove them somehow, just because he thinks that it's redundant. Kindly look into it.

Thanks, User:Destroyer27 (User talk: Destroyer27) 1:10, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Award ribbon inclusion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

☒N No, award ribbon images should not be included, per relevant Wikipedia:Manual of Style guidelines and overwhelming consensus. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 19:32, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hey all, I got involved in a revert situation with another editor, so I'm coming to you guys for clarification. Do you typically include decorative ribbons for awards like Padma Shri, Padma Ratna, Padma Bhushan etc in biographical articles? If you do, how are these ribbons typically presented? I don't know what community guideline would address this. In a case like this it seems odd to me to have these ribbons mixed in a bulleted list. But I'll defer to the community regulars. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:11, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Cyphoidbomb: MOS:INFOBOXFLAG advises against such use (note that the guideline is applicable, in letter and spirit, to icons other than national flags). The little-recognized ribbon conveys no information that the award-name 'Padma Shri' doesn't, besides adding an inconsistency in the list-layout and being visually distracting. Abecedare (talk) 03:01, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would tend to agree with the Infobox flag argument. One of the reasons why we don't use flags in the infobox is because we don't want to unduly draw attention to one parameter over others. Similarly, the additional decoration of these ribbons tend to draw attention to those awards as being particularly more important over other awards. I don't see the need for this. However there might be some uses for the ribbon like in groupings like I've seen some ribbon bars like here. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:49, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it is even appropriate to use in this case. The ribbon is meant to be worn by military personnel in place of the medal when wearing the medals is inappropriate. Using a military decoration for civilians makes no sense. —Gazoth (talk) 05:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Its not about one's perception but its about facts, those ribbons can be wore by civilians, this award is A CIVILIAN AWARD, not a millitary award, these ribbons are for civilian purpose and the recepients can wore in ceremonies and official functions. No military personnel will ever get a Padma award during their service, those ribbons are for civilian use only not for millitary use. Ribbons would not have been provided along with the medals or represented with the awards if it were for a particular use such as for the millitary personnel. Secondly ironically Sachin Tendulkar or MS Dhoni are millitary personnel too, Sachin a group captain in Indian Air force, MS is Lt. Colonel in Indian army, so this also justify the provision of ribbons. Thank you I rest my case. Dey subrata (talk) 08:58, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dey subrata: It would be helpful if you'd remain on topic and discuss whether or not the decorative images belong in bulleted lists the way you've added/restored them. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:03, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have not bowed out, I am keeping my eyes here, but no one after me, made any vital point. Above all other discussion are proven baseless from my point. Again I must point out,
  • 1st: The award is a Civilian Award, not a millitary award.
  • 2nd: No millitary personnel will ever receive a Padma award during their service, thus above point of wearing by millitary personnel does not come in picture and thus those ribbons are for civilian use only.
  • 3rd: Padma awards are three, Padma Shri, Padma Bhusan & Padma Vibhushan, along with Bharat Ratna, its 4 Civilian Awards, those ribbons can be wore by recepients in ceremonies and official functions, and ribbons are mostly wore when there is multiple Padma awards received, and thus those ribbons shows the ditinctions between the awards.
  • 4th: The irony, many sports person who received Padma Award, are also been appointed in Miliatry, Navy, and Airforce. So this way also the above given logic is infact illogical. Thank you. Dey subrata (talk) 18:07, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dey subrata: Why are you rehashing this same argument again? This is a discussion about whether or not it is common or useful to include a ribbon icon in a bulleted list, when none of the other items have such decorations or warrant such decorations. As I argued above (which you have remained silent to, for whatever reason) such decorations unduly draw attention to one item over others, and as Abecedare noted above, The little-recognized ribbon conveys no information that the award-name 'Padma Shri' doesn't, besides adding an inconsistency in the list-layout and being visually distracting. That is yet another argument you chose to ignore. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:24, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Are you kidding me "conveys no information that the award-name 'Padma Shri'", I am so sorry, from the ribbon I absolutely can understand that thats a Padma Shri and other is Padma Bhushan or the other is Padma Vibushan. You don't know that does not mean the world does not know. And this is wikipedia, its the palce where things are added so that people can know including you "NOW". With your logic one can now say, Croatia won the worldcup. One does not know about certain things does not mean, it has not happened or its not certain or its not the truth. Secondly, you now making your point more weak by saying this, as now from those ribbon you can now have th opportunity to know about the Padma Shri ribbon or Padma Bhushan ribbon, thus making it more valuable that people need to know. Secondly where in the world its written that you can't add ribbons in bulleted list. For an example here, flags and ribbons both are used in the bulleted list, and its every where, similar and same, Why exception in this or this is an ego war going on. Dey subrata (talk) 19:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Its going nowhere, see there is no guidelines regarding this case. This is an exceptional case may be, I don't know about other state, is there any ribbon been associated with national awards of other countries or states, but in India its been given along with the medal and certificate and I personally know people who wear ribbons and medals. So this ribbons represent the medals. So ribbons can be added there in the bulleted lsit been added in every millitary article. Dey subrata (talk) 19:47, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dey subrata: Do you have any source for existence of service ribbons for these medals besides personal knowledge? If so, we can mention that and retain the images in the respective articles about the awards. If not, those service ribbon style images should be removed from those pages too, though the ribbon design (which is sourceable) can be described in words. Abecedare (talk) 19:55, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dey subrata: Your claim that the ribbons are in every military article is meaningless, since this is not a military award. Paul McCartney is a Featured Article. Featured Articles represent Wikipedia's highest quality articles. McCartney has received numerous civilian awards including Member of The British Empire. There are no ribbons in the bulleted list. Contrarily List of awards and nominations received by Paul McCartney#Orders, awards and honours has a table, where various ribbons are presented, so at least there is some visual context for their inclusion, i.e. that most of the awards in that list have ribbons associated with them and a space for them to be included less obtrusively. Here are some more Featured Articles:
Extended content
In none of these Featured Articles do we find any ribbon decorations in any of the prose or list sections. There simply is no established, well-received precedent for this, and it's totally unclear to me what standard of quality you are looking at when you require its inclusion. The Prince Harry article? An article that doesn't even have the very thing we're discussing, i.e. ribbons? What, in your mind, makes this case so special that it should deviate from the majority of our highest-quality articles? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:29, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • As far as I can determine, the Padma awards and Bharat Ratna come with distinctive two-inch wide ribbons so that the awards can be worn around the neck, (see [1], [2] etc) and the service ribbon equivalent (to be worn on the chest?) are an on-wikipedia invention. Even if that understanding is incorrect, and editors can produce reliable sources for the claim that the ribbons can be and are worn independently by recipients in ceremonies and official functions, my argument for not using the their images as essentially decorative supplements for the award names still stands. Similarly, IMO the civilian vs military debate would be good to resolve (with sources!) so that we can possibly include such details in the articles about the awards but that debate is tangential to the issue at hand. Abecedare (talk) 19:42, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No there is no article on ribbons specially, because it not even necessary or big thing to be discussed "that a ribbon is provided only to wear" not to decorate on walls. A average person can say that. Articles only describe which ribbons is for which award. Why should be there any article where it will be directed that ribbons are to be worn or to be decorated as show piece. And why should those images be removed?? where is it written that a millitary personnel can wear his service ribbons or his wikipedia article can display the ribbon but a civilian can't wear ribbons or his wikipedia article can't display those image of ribbons? after all when ribbons are provided, are provided to wear only not to put as show piece. I sit or is it not? What a logic!! I don't think I need to produce any document to or to provide a reference to tell human can't exist without water.
See these are also SERVICE RIBBONS though associated with CIVILIAN AWARDS but are service ribbons, as those CIVILIAN AWARDS are awarded because of their "SERVICE TO THE NATIONS IN THEIR FIELD". Secondly, like this ribbon , an Army man wears this ribbon one can easily recognise that the person is a receipient of Shaurya Chakra, similarly when some one wear this one can easily understand that the person is a recepient of Padma Shri, so its conveys message, not for fun. Thus if a millitary service ribbon can be added in their artcile and so is a Civilian service ribbon can also be added. I don't think its so much big thing to discuss in the first place. Lastly, there is no such guideline that it can't be added for civilian awards, thus no one have any right to remove. Thank you Dey subrata (talk) 20:19, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Lastly, there is no such guideline that it can't be added for civilian awards, thus no one have any right to remove." Nonsense. There aren't established guidelines for every possible type of edit. If various community members decide that it is aesthetically distracting, or places an undue emphasis on one award over others, then the decoration can be removed. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:35, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Non sense!! I think many people lack common sense as far the above conversation goes. Now coming to "...aesthetically distracting, or places an undue emphasis on one award over others..",
  • The awards are highest possible awards one can receive in the country. Thus I don't see why there is any problem if putting the ribbons give an emphasize.
  • Secondly, the awards to be emphasized as they are the Highest possible honours one can achieve through their service for the country. For an example, when we discuss abount a good holywood actor, we always ask "Did he receive an Oscar?" because it shows that, yes the oscar has more an ultimate achievement for an actor in hollywood. Similary, a person who serves India (Indian society) in their particular field, are recognised by the Highest National awards which they receive, very few people receive Padma awards out of 1.3 Billions. And even very fewer receive Bharat Ratna (48 till now), you can calculate the percentile on your own and automaticlaly will get answer whether these awards are to be emphasized or not.
  • Thirldy, when a person receive A Padma Award or Bharat Ratna, he or she is called with award name before taking their name in any official ceremony or function by Govt., he or she should be called out as "Padma shri firstname sirname" or "Barat Ratna firstname sirname" . For example, its similar to the "SIR" title that is given in UK. For example, when we engineers in India take name of Father of Engineering in India, we take it as Bharat Ratna Sir Mokshagondam Visvesvaraya. So, its with "common sense" NOT "non sense", BHARAT RATNA or PADMA SHRI, BHUSHAN, VIBHUSAN are to be emphasized above any other award, because its the "HIGHEST" and "ULTIMATE" honour and National Honour that one can receiev in India. There is no problem in it emphasize rather logical to give emphasize.
  • Fourthly, if 2-3 community memebers are not using their common sense or their reasoning, I have nothing to say. Another example I want to give, why its to be empahsized,... who ever recieved a Bharat Ratna, or Padma Award, you can find it in every recipients' articles, that its been mentioned in the "LEAD OF THE ARTICLE", why?? Because thats the highest honours one can achieve, thus its emphasized. Similarly for the millitary highest honour "PARAM VIR CHAKRA" whoever the recipient, it will be always in the lead of the article. I don't understand, why the "HIGHEST HONOUR OF A COUNTRY" should not be emphasIzed!!
  • Fifthly, Whereevr I put those Ribbons, I have seperately categorised the awards in "NATIONaL HONOURS", "SPORTING HONOURS" & "OTHER HONOURS", So, their is no way its shown that other awards have no value. Rather its gives a good distictive read.
  • Sixthly, cosidering the point of "emphasize", a average person can say, Award by a Media Group or an Organisation is very very inferior to the NATIONAL Honours like of Padma Award and Bharat Ratna. I hope peopel will use their brains now or common sense before calling "non sense" to people just because they are here for more time than me. Dey subrata (talk) 10:56, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dey subrata: The third point you mentioned above is wrong. Padma and Bharat Ratna are not used as titles like "Padma Shri firstname surname". Ref. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 11:13, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have not said that its to used as title, that is, he or she should not use it in any documents but I said in any govt. funtion or ceremony if their names are taken, they are taken as Bharat Ratna Firstname and sirname. I was talking about giving emphasize of their achievement. Dey subrata (talk) 11:25, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's what i am saying. The names are not announced the way you claim them to be announced. And even if they are, that's wrong. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 11:28, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think you failed to understand from your provided reference, it telling you can't use it any kind of document or in anyway for personal/community or any other kind of benifit. Bharat Ratna Awardee is always taken their name can be taken their name in any ceremonies an fuction or even other way. For example here "BHARAT RATNA JRD TATA AWARD" been named by govt authorities only. Dey subrata (talk) 11:35, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay! Best luck. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 11:53, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Order of the British Empire has two ribbons associated with it, -for Millitary personnel and for Civilian. So seems both are used for different purpose. I don't see a problem in putting them in the article. And in case Indian honours its different, only Civilian. And I know what featured article means. And putting those ribbons in the article does not violates any rules for the article to be a FA. Its very illogical that "a" FA status article does not include ribbons, for that we can't include it in another. No where its written that someone able to make a featured article without including any ribbons, and from now you have to follow it. No, absolutely not. "This is called NONSENSE". This is perhaps against any creative community ideas. Those article are made by people like you and me, they are not made by supreme power. Secondly, an article get a FA status, that does not mean, there is absolutely no scope of improvement or revamp. It itself is against wikipedia rules i think. Putting ribbons in the award section only enhance the person's achievement rather diminishing. Thirdly, we must go with the assumption that when a person go through any aticle he or she must go thoroughly. We should not assume some one will half read an artcile, that anyone reading the article and find out that the person is a recepient of Bharat Ratna, he or she will stop reading or ignore other awards. I as a reader reader will not do such, do you, will you ignore, if then I feel pity for you. Dey subrata (talk) 11:20, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We're not here to "enhance" a person's achievement. We're here to provide a balanced perspective about who the subject is and what they've done. With your limited experience at Wikipedia, you don't know what the community's attitude is toward various things, so you're not speaking from a place of authority or even of familiarity. I have been involved in hundreds of discussions about various aesthetic matters and I know what sorts of things people feel. Consistency is one of them, simplicity is another. I also know that when Featured Article writers roll up their sleeves to work, they're scrutinising every square inch of that article. The lack of colourful decorations in those high-quality articles says a lot more than your "I don't see why there is any problem if putting the ribbons give an emphasize" argument, which only betrays your lack of knowledge of Wikipedia principles. That's not meant as an insult. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:50, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Straw poll

Should award ribbons for Padma Shri, Padma Vibhushan, Padma Bhushan etc. be included in bulleted lists?

  • This discussion is way too confusing for anyone with little knowledge of Indian civil awards to follow but, in this representation, the color bars are essentially meaningless and look like editing errors and I suggest we just remove them. I also note that Abecedare's request for references hasn't been answered so, even if we forget about aesthetics, they should go. --regentspark (comment) 13:01, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No - There is no accepted standard for decorating quality articles with these ribbons. Above (in the collapsed section) I listed a ton of Featured Articles about various award recipients from various disciplines. The ribbons are visually distracting and serve no encyclopedic purpose. Having done some more guideline searching, I find WP:ICONDECORATION, which states:
"Icons should serve an encyclopedic purpose and not merely be decorative. They should provide additional useful information on the article subject, serve as visual cues that aid the reader's comprehension, or improve navigation. Icons should not be added only because they look good ... An icon is purely decorative if it does not improve comprehension of the article subject and serves no navigational function."
As one can see here (where the issue originated), the award is clearly described as "Padma Shri, India's fourth highest civilian award." There is no further information that could be delivered, and with such unambiguous language, there is no further comprehension that the reader needs, or that the reader gets from seeing the ribbon. Nobody is going to read "Padma Shri, India's fourth highest civilian award" and be confused. "Hmm, wait, which one is that again? Oh the cute pink one with the two lines? Wow, he won THAT?!" According to the guideline, the icon has to improve our understanding of the subject, the footballer, not of the award. The vast majority of the world does not know what that decoration is by sight, and it doesn't add to their understanding of footballer Sunil Chhetri. The text helps, but the image does nothing. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:37, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No The discussion has increasingly veered into (unsourced) claims about side issues but as far as inclusion of the ribbon/award images in pages other than those about the awards themselves (as in here) is concerned, my answer and reasoning is similar to what I said before. WP:ICONDECORATION and MOS:INFOBOXFLAG advise against such use. The ribbon convey no information that the award-name 'Padma Shri' doesn't. The decorative image only adds an inconsistency in the list-layout and is visually distracting. Abecedare (talk) 15:30, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, for the reasons given above and because we're not some sort of colouring book. If someone wants to see what the things look like, they can go to the relevant article. - Sitush (talk) 15:32, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No Does anyone on earth have a picture of a Bharat Ratna awardee wearing a service ribbon on their on their chest? Or, for that matter, the medallion itself on a lanyard, on any day but the day it was awarded? In the absence of specific protocols, Wikipedia tends to describe not prescribe. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:28, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Use of ISC as a post-nominal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
☒N No, ISC should not be used as a post-nominal. ∯WBGconverse 18:35, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Indian Society of Cinematographers is one of several association of cinematographers in India. We can verify that it exists and was founded in 1995 but till date I have found no indepenedent coverage of it that goes beyond a single sentence.
Over the past year there has been an effort to spam wikipedia with mentions of the organization. Part of that effort has been to append "ISC" to the names of its 20-odd members, including in article lede and infobox (see Chota K. Naidu, Ramachandra Babu etc). The issue has been discussed a few times earlier and though participation has been low and the opinion divided, one rationale proposed for allowing "ISC" to be affixed to the name of its members' biographical articles' ledes is WP:POSTNOM. The counter-argument is that ISC does not qualify as a widely recognized organization that reliable sources regularly associate with the subject and that no independent secondary source uses "ISC" as a post-nominal. WP:CREDENTIAL is clearly inapplicable too, IMO. See also this partially-related discussion on this noticeboard.
So should "ISC" be used as a post-nominal in the ledes of its members' biographical article? Abecedare (talk) 02:48, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Cyphoidbomb, Izno, Secundus Zephyrus, TenTonParasol, NinjaRobotPirate, Gonnym, Ravensfire, Gazoth, Sitush, and Blue Rasberry: who have participated in the previous discussions mentioned above. Abecedare (talk) 02:48, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, ISC does not meet WP:POSTNOM's requirements. I looked into sources for the two subjects mentioned above and I was able to find only a single source that used the post-nominal between them. The suffix is rarely used, to say the least, and does not belong in the lead. —Gazoth (talk) 05:14, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for pinging me. I agree with Gazoth that ISC doesn't have enough sources to be notable as a POSTNOM. Did you ping any of the editors who have been adding "ISC" to pages? Secundus Zephyrus (talk) 16:11, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Is this used on film credits? Very possibly - the ISC website says it should be. How do we treat similar organizations outside India? The first 4 I looked at in Category:Members of the British Society of Cinematographers all did use it a post-nominal, though for the American Society of Cinematographers it seemed more like 50/50. It does seem small (UK 230, US 380 per WP), and members essentially all work in the South Indian film industry though. Johnbod (talk) 18:07, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Great question, Johnbod. I did some research on Netflix, and the first three relevant movies that I found–Lagaan, Barfi!, and Dil Se—all included ISC after the cinematographers' names in the opening credits. It's certainly a small sample size, but I would bet most of the others follow suit. I took screenshots, but I presume I'm not allowed to share them here. Secundus Zephyrus (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Secundus Zephyrus and Johnbod: Just pointing out that yes, in a film's credits, a cinematographer might want to indicate what professional society they belong to (and that might even be a condition of being a member of that society) but we are under no obligation to do that. That's a contract the subject has with the film's production company, not with us, and it doesn't mean that everybody can reasonably be expected to follow suit. There are also members of various directors' guilds and various casting societies. What about magicians who are members of a magic society? We don't by default include these professional membership post-nominals in biographies. I'll also note that many of those BSC additions were added a looonnnng time ago,[3][4][5][6][7] and who knows if there had ever been a discussion about society post-nominals. Some were even added by the same person, perhaps because they thought it was the correct course of action, but perhaps without a content guideline as its basis. Here's one added by the guy who the article was about. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:30, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Questionable on this one. POSTNOM talks about the use by reliable secondary sources and I've not seen much evidence of that. At most, it should be used on the person's individual article but there needs to be sourcing around this to show it's commonly used AND that this person either currently is a member, or was a member and maybe even some dates. From the editing that's been happening thus far, I strongly believe that we're seeing WP:COI to be very charitable but more probably WP:PAID editing without the required declarations from the group trying to promote itself. I'm not in favor of supporting that in any way. So without the secondary sourcing, I support removing any of this. Ravensfire (talk) 22:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional kill Delete I don't have a huge problem with it directly after the subject's name in the lead (provided that elswhere in the article we include sourced content that says "___ is a member of the Indian Society of Cinematographers") but I absolutely don't think it belongs in the Infobox in the |name= parameter or in the |title= parameter, which is how it is typically (and totally erroneously) presented. In the infobox's |name= parameter it looks like it's a royal honorific, and I'll point out that even at Elizabeth II we don't see any of that "her royal highness" or fancy English royal post-nominal nonsense. This professional organisation stuff just seems like club membership, and I don't consider it any more important than roadside service membership or a membership at Makro, that we should go out of our way to respectfully bow at its inclusion. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:55, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've amended my response above to the clarified negative because of Deccantrap's comment below. WP:POSTNOM wants "honor" or "appointment" for these post-nominals, and that's not the mark being hit here, since as far as anyone can tell, the threshold for inclusion is: you worked a camera for an Indian film. And while we see some British cinematographer biographies with these post-nominals, it's still unclear what guidelines (if any) the contributors were adhering to when they added that stuff. (See my comments a few responses up.) Also, in a world where directors are considered the apex of creative input in film, we just don't see articles so laden with director guild-type post-nominals, and going down the film chain, we also don't usually see writing guild post-nominals, or casting guild post-nominals. So why cinematographers somehow get the pass is unknown, especially since the people who keep spamming this content are notoriously silent. Kill. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Abecedare: As the one who opened the discussion, did you have a position on this that you cared to express? No pressure, of course. If you want to abstain, I get it. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:33, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done. @Johnbod: Do you have any further thoughts or any objections to removing the ISC as a post-nominal, in light of this discussion. Abecedare (talk) 23:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. This is not about notability of ISC but simply that professional organizations do not meet the requirements of WP:POSTNOM. Even if ISC was as well-known a body as American Medical Association, membership to it is neither an "honor" nor an "appointment" which are basic requirements of WP:POSTNOM.Deccantrap (talk) 12:35, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No In case my opening statement was too neutral :-), I want to clarify that I too don't support such addition of "ISC" because (1) of WP:POSTNOM, (2) independent secondary sources don't do so, and (3) it is clearer to the reader if we mention ISC membership explicitly (with join dates etc as Ravensfire points out) when that is sourceable, instead of adopting a style suited to film credits. Abecedare (talk) 23:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mild support for inclusion. I'm generally sympathetic to widening WP:POSTNOM a tad for things like this, & think that the ISC can squeak by as an "honour" because it seems highly selective. But there is a case for just covering it lower down. Johnbod (talk) 00:17, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnbod: I appreciate your non-committal stance. I'm not clear on what the qualifications are for inclusion because their website (which is run by someone with a Gmail address) doesn't say, so I'm unsure on how exclusive it is. I guess I'm just not clear on why this is somehow different from labour union membership. Tom Cruise is no doubt a Screen Actors Guild member. They don't just hand out memberships, you have to accrue a certain number of hours or speaking roles before you become eligible. After that, you probably have to pay a fee and dues or whatever. But in biographical articles we never indicate post-nominally what labour union a person belongs to, whether it is an actor or director, or anybody else. And we probably never mention it at all in most articles. And as I noted earlier in some other diatribe, there are any number of professional memberships that a person can sign up for, like for magicians there are super-exclusive magic societies and I would imagine those memberships require serious skill evaluations, rather than just a few IMDb credits and an initiation fee. And considering the Indian Society of Cinematographers has been engaging in an aggressive marketing campaign here at Wikipedia for about a year I think, I'm having strong feelings that it's not as legit as we might care to think. But I'm not going to fight you on this. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:04, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm seeing them as similar to the older British and American associations, which are certainly not trade unions (which you might have to belong to work in thwe field, like US & UK Equity for performers) but as a very selective organization for people at the top of the tree in that field. So more like a national academy of academics, without the government sponsorship. That a decent proportion of their small membership have articles is significant. Johnbod (talk) 02:04, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's difficult to say much about the society given the paucity of sources. From the snippets of information I have been able to gather, it seems more accurate to say that ISC was established in 1995 by an (already) well regarded group of cinematographers than to say that it confers prestige by granting membership. The criterion for the latter, along with any activities of the society following the [inaugural meeting, are completely unknown.
That though is somewhat of a side-issue since even if we could learn more about the society and show that it was a selective and prestigious club, using its initials as a post-nominal would still not comply with the concerned guideline, secondary sources, or serve the reader. Abecedare (talk) 18:54, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shutting down of Wikimedia India

Wikimedia India Chapter is to be de-recognized by WMF and shut down, from September 14, 2019, for the inability of the community to abide by Foundation requirements and lack of leadership. The community has accused WMF of not taking them into confidence and have sought a public hearing on the issue.[1] ∯WBGconverse 14:38, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's discussion of the issue on the Wikimedia mailing list. See the thread titled 'Open Letter to Affiliations Committee : Wikimedia India's Demand For A Fair And Transparent Hearing '. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 15:08, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Nitnaware, Himanshu (14 July 2019). "It's a curtain call for Wikimedia India Chapter". Pune Mirror. Retrieved 2019-07-14.
What was it doing? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 03:13, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Dharmadhyaksha I never knew it even existed.--DBigXrayᗙ 11:53, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dharmadhyaksha, it's not exactly clear from what I've read on the mailing list. I just found the talk page on meta for the chapter; it looks like that has more information. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 22:06, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @BlackcurrantTea: for the link. The talk page still doesn't have the information. Anyways! My comment was more sarcastic as i know they don't do anything. Am surprised they managed to do something, which eventually happened to be wrong and resulted in the shut down. I don't know if @DBigXray: was also sarcastic. If he wasn't; i am right in saying they didn't do anything in first place! §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 03:08, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

About Article Lead

Hi guys can someone look into this matter urgently. User Tubslubeamorepersempre and Gridlust had added lot of information in the lead section of the articles West Bengal, Bengal and Bangladesh. I am not sure how far those information's are accurate/correct, although they have provided source, nevertheless I still think the lead hasn't been properly written as per Wikipedia standard. I am new to Wikipedia so, don't have the expertise of writing an important articles like these. Please help make necessary changes as per your knowledge and expertise. The lead of all three articles must be rewritten, its reading more like advertisement of the article. Thank You--Aakanksha55 (talk) 15:36, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That I know that Gridlust had been blocked but my concern is that Lead of all three articles are written like advertisement rather than an encyclopedic article.--Aakanksha55 (talk) 04:10, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have remove the "12% of the world's GDP" claim from West Bengal and Bengal article. And Alaexis has done that for Bangladesh. Copy paste has been done in all three article especially in the lead where extraordinary economic claims were made. The lead is looking like advertisement and promotion. @Alaexis: @RegentsPark: @Tubslubeamorepersempre:. Thanks--Aakanksha55 (talk) 08:51, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Peer Review for Raja Harishchandra

I have started peer review for India's first feature film Raja Harishchandra here. I am planning to take it to FAC in the near future. However, I dont have any previous experience with FACs so thought of putting PR first. I would appreciate if you can put your comments. Any constructive criticism is appreciated. - Vivvt (Talk) 17:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Awadhiya caste customs

Awadhiya (caste)

Awadhiyas banning widow remarriage seems trivial to me since a lot of communities do not let widow marriages happen. I don't think this section, edited here, which writes:

Customs and Traditions : The Ajodhya Kurmis of Bihar and Kanaujia Kurmis of the U.P. pride themselves on their prohibiting the remarriage of widows and have attained higher rank than the ordinary Kurmis.[1][2]

should be in the article. Not to mention the references write, they attained "higher status" in the eyes of the "Brahmins". I wonder how important is that.

I moved this discussion here since NikhilPatelReal seems uninterested in WP:BRD.

References

  1. ^ Kurmi Jamat ka itihas. Prabhat Prakashan. 2013. pp. 246, 247. ISBN 9789350484340.
  2. ^ Dutt, Npendra Kumar (1931). Origin And Growth Of Caste In India Vol.1. p. 11.

- Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:40, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Fylindfotberserk: The Kurmis were famous for their historically egalitarian treatment of women, which along with their work ethic, made the British extoll their virtues. Widow remarriage was common among the Kurmis in the 19th century. I don't know about the quality of the sources used in the article, but they seem to be saying that some among the Kurmis, who fell for the Sanskritization, i.e. mimicking upper-caste values and behavior to gain higher caste status, which began in the early 20th century, also began to frown upon widow remarriage. That sounds plausible. While the prohibition on widow remarriage may have been widespread in other communities, it was not among the Kurmis, and therefore unusual for them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:46, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Fowler&fowler: Don't know about the quality of the sources either, but the second (1931) source looks more believable than the other one (2013) which reminds me of Bhim Singh Dahiya's Jats the Ancient Rulers (A clan study) for some reason. If the content needs to be kept then the 1931 source would do just fine IMO. However, specific sourced points like, they "attained higher status in the eyes of the Brahmins" need to be mentioned instead of something like "have attained higher rank than the ordinary Kurmis" which reeks of superiority complex. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:01, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Fylindfotberserk: Actually, this is already discussed in the first few paragraphs of the Kurmi page, cited to Bayly, Pinch, and others. You could paraphrase those paragraphs, so as to avoid close paraphrasing, put them into this new article, and remove these two sources as well. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:52, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: FYI, I removed the above quoted text as a copyvio because it was too close to the cited source (in case anyone is thinking of reinserting it!). --regentspark (comment) 15:19, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@RegentsPark: :) Would have helped if I'd taken a look at the article. Well, what it reliably has is taken entirely from the first three paragraphs of the Kurmi page. It is a content fork, and should be AfD'd, in my view. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:29, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Fowler&fowler: You mean this one? It was recently added by Nikhil. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:06, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, all that is already there in the Kurmi page, but consists of oblique mention here and there. There isn't a systematic treatment that has become large enough to be a spin-off and an independent article. He has created a content fork in the form of an unreliable stub. It needs to be AfD'd. You should do the honors. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:19, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps just merge and leave a redirect? AfD is a messy process. --regentspark (comment) 18:23, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
RegentsPark is right. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:31, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nice. But there would not be anything to merge besides these two sources [8], [9] - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:57, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Fowler&fowler: Should we merge the articles now or we need more people to discuss this? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:54, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Fylindfotberserk: Please merge them now. This is straightforward. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:53, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Done - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 19:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CfD nomination of Category:Pondicherry templates

Category:Pondicherry templates has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. —⁠andrybak (talk) 21:28, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Vijay Diwas (India)

Greetings, this article needs a little attention. The article title suggests it should be on an Indian topic, however the body, including the first line, infobox narrate differently. I am currently trying to find the article history. Regards. --Titodutta (talk) 16:20, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We need to allot a common page to the same event organised on the same day, across both the countries. Also, ain't Kargil Vijay Diwas our primary event of celebration in these spheres? ∯WBGconverse 12:36, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Chandra Prakash Pathak

Edits and reviews it anyone — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.206.0.55 (talk) 14:59, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Draft:Chandra Prakash Pathak. Yikes. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:24, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Genetic studies in External links

While genetic studies are not allowed in the caste/tribe article bodies, is it OK to add these in the "External links" or "Further reading" sections like in this recent edit? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:38, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am in two minds about this, hence I asked Fylindfotberserk to post the above here after they first posted it on my talk page. One of my concerns is that of stuff becoming outdated and not supplanted by whatever the more recent research may be; another is that in the case of some caste groups this could end up being a big list. - Sitush (talk) 19:10, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think it better not to allow these articles. Though the example above appears to be peer reviewed and, therefore, would qualify as reliable, the reality is that genetic studies are constantly shifting. A study could get outdated, it may be only one study amongst many with results and conclusions varying across studies. Uncontextualized pointers to single studies is never a good idea. --regentspark (comment) 20:20, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone point me to where the "genetic studies in caste articles" question was discussed? Sitush, you perhaps? I'm baffled as to why a complete ban is necessary. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:06, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This paper is not a caste paper, but a tribe one. What is the difference? Well, in North India, there is caste endogamy and village exogamy. In other words, a daughter by tradition out-marries a husband of the same caste in village of no traditional preference. She can thus finds herself randomly placed in relation to her natal home. Consequently, a human version of adaptive radiation a la Darwin's finches will not be successful for caste in North India (for there are no genetic islands). However, marriage traditions among tribes are very different. People marry locally. The Bonda (a type of Gond) speak a Dravidian language in one village, but an Afroasiatic in an adjoining one. It is the evolution of such diversity that is traced in the paper. As for genetic studies, some genetic studies are widely accepted. For example, humanity's common African origin, the consensus view among geneticists, is now accepted truth. However, genetic studies attempting to correlate a specific caste status with ancestral origin in certain place of imagined value are the ones that have not cleared the bar. The shorter the time span being considered, the less reliable the results. Such controversial papers do not belong to the main body nor to the external links. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:58, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
North Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic tribes are the new favorites of geneticists. A lot of papers have come up lately. So just like what Sitush said, we can end up with a big list. Moreover, genetic studies are not unaffected by different migrations theories either. It is not unheard of geneticist striving to prove his/her POV migration theory. Compounded with ever changing technology as RegentsPark has pointed to and differing models for "Admixture tests", I believe it is best not to mention genetics in the main caste/tribe articles at all. If it is that much important, we can create a separate article, name it "Genetic studies on North Dravidian tribes" or something, similar to this and this articles. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:30, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I was tired last night. So let me attempt another response: RegentsPark and Sitush are correct of course. I have myself written about the evolving genetic literature on the domestication of the chicken. However, if there really is a glut of such articles on tribes in India, we still have to say, "It depends on the article." For the European Journal of Human Genetics is a peer-reviewed journal, which no Wikipedia guideline that I know can consider unreliable. (It is not like Nature Scientific Reports or PLOS One, mega journals which will publish a preliminary announcement within three months of its submission, upon payment of a hefty publication fee.) The time between submission and publication for this paper is seven months. As I've already said, you can't put a blanket ban on the genetic studies. The migrations of modern humans from Africa into India is widely accepted and has now made it into standard history text-books of India. The litmus test for notability should be the reporting of a result in scholarly tertiary sources, especially text-books or surveys of literature in the field, which summarize and evaluate different sources, and so are less affected by WP:UNDUE). If a paper has not been so reported, we can simply say, "Citing it would be UNDUE." But we can't take a personal position on the reliability of genetic methods. I also don't see how we can ban a paper in the European Journal of Human Genetics from appearing in the external links. If many such papers are in danger of showing up, we can put them in a collapsed list. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:02, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously all these papers are reliable when used in genetics specific articles. The African origin theory is mainstream. No doubt about that. I had added genetic data in the past (early 2010s) in some caste/tribe/ethnic articles myself. I'm just saying that the most sensible thing to do would be to create a separate article on genetics, specific to these ethnic groups. While I don't know what purpose a hanging external link would serve, but I totally believe that deducing origin/relatedness/specific DNA types of ethnic groups based on a single paper will be a blunder. I agree with your "litmus test for notability". Wouldn't be a problem if scholarly tertiary sources like text books, etc are used. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:04, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I am suggesting that instead of creating a separate genetics-review article, and you will find that many such articles will be required, which will tie you up in further controversy, it is best to simply revert in a caste article any citation of a genetic article that has not been cited in the tertiary literature. We do so on the grounds of the citation not being DUE for that article, and we reference WP:TERTIARY which says: "Tertiary sources are publications such as encyclopedias and other compendia that summarize primary and secondary sources. Many introductory undergraduate-level textbooks are regarded as tertiary sources because they sum up multiple secondary sources. Policy: Reliable tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, and may be helpful in evaluating due weight" This high bar does not apply to other citations, i.e. outside of genetics. Pinging @Fylindfotberserk, RegentsPark, Sitush, and Vanamonde93: If we can get a consensus on this, we will have WP policy behind us. Think of the time before WP:INDICSCRIPTS, and all the heartache. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:33, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we should have a high standard with respect to inclusion of genetic studies, but I worry that this standard is too high. There is a very wide spectrum of genetic findings, from those that are tentative and controversial to those that have been shown to be robust; a common origin in Africa isn't the only thing geneticists firmly agree on. Inclusion in a tertiary source is, in my opinion, a sufficient condition for inclusion of a given finding on Wikipedia, but it shouldn't be a necessary condition; it's too tight a restriction, and tertiary sources evolve somewhat slower than I would expect or want Wikipedia to. Personally, I think the language we have at WP:DUE is quite sufficient; it already would support the exclusion of tentative findings. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:48, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What does one do with sources in genetics about which an average Wikipedian is unable to make the determination of tentative findings? Each such article, and there will be many in any given slice of time, will tie up the community in an RfC. Recall the Nature Scientific Reports multiauthor on Rakhigarhi. Wikipedia is a conservative resource, in my view. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:07, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting help on the article on Swiggy

Hello fellow members,

A bunch of editors are working to make the Swiggy article worth an approval. I would like to ask all contributors for your kind help. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_talk:Swiggy and help improve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Swiggy

so that we can have the article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiggy up asap.

Also, if you time, please help me complain/report some usere's unjust behaviours due to biased opinion, Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Compfreak7#extended discussion

The people who have rejected/denied requests seem to have no idea about what Swiggy is, or how big/impactful it is in the country. It's so biased that Zomato has a page just because they have international exposure or operations elsewhere.

Compfreak7 (talk) 05:06, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Caste of V G Siddhartha (CCD founder)

Please take a look at Talk:V._G._Siddhartha#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_3_August_2019, Folks are trying to mention his caste that some other editor had removed from the article. Although I did not remove this, I responded to this request. the IP has now come up with an HT article that mentions his caste, can this be added or should we seek for a primary source from the subject himself claiming it. like we do for BLPs. See Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity,_gender,_religion_and_sexuality#Religion--DBigXrayᗙ 14:46, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. This article is currently featured on Mainpage as Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#(Posted)_RD:_V._G._Siddhartha --DBigXrayᗙ 14:49, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've contributed my thoughts over there. To other members of the community, where can one find the actual guideline that says that caste must be self-identified? It seems like something that should be found at MOS:BIO, especially considering caste issues are subject to discretionary sanctions. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:13, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be fine adding, because even Sir would be happy as it would define him 'The son of soil, son of coffee'. Its definitely pointless arguing further, every community has to get the credit of the people that it has produced..

There is ambiguity in the caste brother. If you give the full name then you have to specify.. Or else readers might assume the other ' Hegde's ' Please understand..

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