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I'm glad you've been able to get a computer! The addon is Update Scanner [1] I've also created an subpage where you can find other nifty addons. User:Penubag/optimum toolsets You might find some other nice addons, so take a look. -- penubag  (talk) 03:16, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Nope, no computer. But Firefox can be enhanced on this workstation on a session-by-session basis.
The reason I asked was because I'm writing the next newsletter, and there's a section on Watching tips.
That's a nice list. By the way, I've added a link to it in a hatnote on WP:OTS.
The Transhumanist 20:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for linking to my subpage. I've always wanted to inform people of the tools that I've spent hours looking up and trying. Newsletter as in Signpost? That's awesome! -- penubag  (talk) 21:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
No, the newsletter is the frequent project update I send to the team. (I use a mailing list).  :) The Transhumanist 21:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Update on the Outline of knowledge WikiProject & Geography WikiProject (Country outlines workgroup) - 04/16/2009[edit]

Momentum in the development of the outlines is continuing to build, even though we haven't added any new outlines lately. Plenty of work is being done on the outlines we already have.

Keep up the good work everyone!


Kudos go to Buaidh, who has dived head first into outline development, continuing improvement of the country outlines, and doing so vigorously. Take a look at his contribs. He has taken the initiative and has been expanding those outlines' design and coverage. Be sure to let him know what you think of his work!

Coming soon: the Super Huge Expansion (it will be really really big)[edit]

Excitement (mine at least) is building as we approach the Super Huge Expansion, during which notices will be placed on thousands of subject talk pages and their corresponding WikiProjects (see below concerning which ones). Though not all on the same day! - this will take place over a period of weeks or months, because it's best not to open the flood gates all at once.

The existing outlines should serve as strong examples for editors who wish to develop new outlines, and so we need to complete them as much as we can before we start to take this to the next level (in about 3 months). The rewrite of the outline article (the draft, which explains outlines in detail), and the guideline on outlines and outline development, also need to be completed before the transcendence begins. These will help guide the decisions and actions of editors, and reduce confusion.

Projected outline, at the OOK WikiProject page[edit]

What's next? Where is the Outline of knowledge headed?

Well, it will grow, to encompass all of human knowledge.

But, is there a plan?


Currently under construction on the Outline of knowledge WikiProject page is a version of the outline that will display links to all the outline pages currently in the encyclopedia proper, links to all outline drafts, and redlinks to all planned outline drafts.

You can help. Please place links to the remaining drafts in there (with complete pagenames so we can easily tell they are drafts). Once all the draft pages are placed, please look over the overall outline for gaps in coverage, and add missing subjects. I expect there are thousands of missing subjects extensive enough to benefit from being outlined. New subjects should be included as red draft links. Thank you.

But it's not just an editing task list...

During the upcoming "Super Huge Expansion" (mentioned above), the article talk page and WikiProject for each of the subjects listed on the projected outline will receive a notice requesting the creation and development of the outline page for that subject. Each notice will also explain how a subject's outline will integrate into the Outline of knowledge and into Wikipedia's navigation system as a whole.

See Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge#Projected outline.

Topic lists[edit]

The nice thing about a reverse outline is that it turns up problems that exist in the publication being outlined, which provides opportunities to fix them. Since we get very little or no opposition to fixing problems even on sets of hundreds of pages, we've been plowing through them.

One of the biggest problems in Wikipedia that our work on the Outline of knowledge has uncovered so far is with the set of topics lists. Their titles, in the forms "List of x topics" and "List of x-related topics" are ambiguous, and they are not the most common terms for describing their content. See WP:COMMONNAME. To make matters worse, the set is divided between 2 competing types/sets of pages: alphabetical indexes, and outlines.

In an effort to sort out this mess, the indexes are being renamed, and the outlines are being reformatted and moved, or merged, into the Outline of knowledge.

So far, almost 300 topic lists have been renamed to indexes. Nobody has objected to the names chosen, but one editor has expressed reservation on the approach - he was concerned it would cause confusion by having 2 title standards in place at the same time for these. Though he himself was not confused, nor did he object to the titles. And nobody else has expressed confusion or dissatisfaction with the new titles either. It has been over 2 weeks since the renaming has begun, and since no confusion seems to have been caused, and since there is no opposition to the new names, I plan to continue with the renaming.

Also, one topic list has been merged into its corresponding outline so far: List of transport topics was merged into Outline of transport. It turned out very good. List of cell biology topics is currently being merged into Outline of cell biology (see the link dump in hidden comments at the end of the outline).

I'm not sure how many lists have "topics" in their titles, but Google turned up 788, and these appear to include the ones that have already been renamed to indexes. Subtracting those renamed so far, there are about 500 more to go.

Watching tips[edit]

I thought you might want to compare notes on the methods we use to watch over the outlines. Here's how I keep an eye on things...

My watchlist had so many thousands of articles in it that I finally just deleted them all. Now I have it set so that I have to manually add pages to be watched, and I use it only to watch trouble spots and collaborations I'm participating in.

Because I like to watch specific sets of pages at a time, I use "Related changes" on list pages. That way the results are not watered down with edits from pages I'm not immediately concerned with.

I always use WP:POP and Related changes together. With POP installed, you go to a link list, like User:Buaidh/Country outlines of the Americas, then click on "Related changes" in the toolbox menu, and then hover the mouse cursor over the diff and hist links so you can look at those without clicking on them.

It's pretty fast.

The technique turns Wikipedia's list system into a crystal ball.

Update Scanner[edit]

Penubag recommends Update Scanner, which is a Firefox add-on that periodically scans pages and pings you when a change is detected. You can even set its level of sensitivity for each scanned page (e.g., "ignore changes of 100 words or less").

I'd use it, but I don't have a computer.  :(

See also WP:OTS for more power tools and techniques, and User:Penubag/optimum toolsets for some more nice addons, that do a variety of things.

I'm always looking for new power tools and power skills, so if you know of any, please share (let me know)!

The Transhumanist 04:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Penubag, I think I can get the outline article and outline guidelines done within 3 months (including feedback and finetuning). At that time, assuming I'm done, I'll ask Thehelfulone and Juliancolton to start placing the notices around Wikipedia. To support the growing amount of effort that will likely be directed upon the Outline of knowledge and its branches from then on, what awards do you think we should have in place by then? I look forward to your reply.

Do not read this one - The Hunt - Outline of knowledge WikiProject - 04/17/2009[edit]

While surveying libraries, their outline-related resources, and our coverage of them, I came across something funny...

What subclass is the Bible in the Library of Congress Classification?

Do you think they'd like this one at WP:DYK?

(Nope. They didn't.)     :)


For months, I've been sitting at a terminal in one of the largest libraries in the country, and I haven't even looked around at the available resources.

Until a few days ago.

I'm overwhelmed.

When compared to libraries, Wikipedia is small. (See Digest of Education Statistics 2008, Chapter 7:Libraries and Educational Technology Libraries, and turn to page 617).

But is that a fair comparison?



Because we have growth potential.  :)

And we cover everything, including libraries!

Guess what else I found?

Hunting for outlines[edit]

I began to study libraries and librarians, since they are experts in organizing knowledge. And of course I turned to Wikipedia to see what we had on the things I came across...

And while doing so I kept running into outlines on Wikipedia that are not (yet) part of the Outline of knowledge.

When I come across non-OOK outlines, generally I rename them, and reformat them to our standard outline format. But there is the occasional exception.

Here are some outlines I just added:

  1. List of energy topics --> Outline of energy (it converted great)
  2. List of Dewey Decimal classes --> Outline of Dewey Decimal classes (no conversion)
  3. Library of Congress Classification --> ??? (no rename, no conversion)

The last 2 are outlines by their very nature, and so our standard outline subheadings didn't seem to fit. So I left them as is.

I renamed the first 2, but the last one is the name of the outline, that is, the topic itself is an outline, and that outline is presented as the article's content, so I left the name as is. For now. This needs more thought.

Of course, that's not all. Concerning those last 2 outlines above...

Alternate outlines of knowledge[edit]

...not only are they outlines, but they are outlines of knowledge! Well, the top few levels, at least.

Uh, so?

What happens if we linkify them?  :)

That is, what happens if we linkify their classifications to Wikipedia's outlines?  :)   :)   :)

They become alternate top ends to the OOK[edit]


What can you find?[edit]

I challenge you to find some "hidden" outlines.

I dare you to take a look around Wikipedia for hidden outlines (that is, outlines not yet hooked into the OOK), and add your kills to WP:WPOOK#The hunt for hidden outlines.

My trophies are already there.

May the hunt begin![edit]

The Transhumanist 20:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Request for help[edit]

I've been rewriting the Outline article from scratch.

Before I move it to article space, it needs to be finished and completely referenced.

I need your help on it.

The Transhumanist 01:11, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

No flagged revisions category up for deletion[edit]

The category associated with the no flagged revisions userbox you have placed on your user page is up for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009 April 23#Category:Wikipedia users who oppose Flagged Revisions and you are invited to share your opinions on the issue. Alansohn (talk) 05:24, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Nintendo Dsi[edit]

I have... Err... recreated the Dsi you ordered at Graphic Lab. Tell me what you think. It is at File:Dsi white closed upright.svg Tell me what you think! Please reply on my talk page, as I would like that! :P--Goldblattster (talk) 19:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I traced it using Inkscape. I can't afford illustrator, so that's it. :P --Goldblattster (talk) 23:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Secant line is NOT about the secant function[edit]

I find this edit and this one very unfortunate and I've undone them and added a dablink to the top of the article titled secant line saying that the trigonometric secant function is not what the article is about.

You really should have read the article titled secant line before doing those edits. You would have found out that it's about a different topic. You should also look at the secant disambiguation page, which also explains that these are two different topics. Michael Hardy (talk) 16:13, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Outline of knowledge WikiProject update 05/10/2009[edit]

Development is moving steadily forward. We haven't created any new outlines lately, but a lot of editing of our existing outlines is taking place. Take a look at Buaidh's contributions.  :)

I'm impressed.

I can safely say we now have another fanatic working on the project.

Importance of watching[edit]

A big danger to new pages or pages that have low traffic are prods. These are deletion proposals that don't have to go through AfD. If a prod sits on a page, any page, 5 days without opposition, the page can be deleted without discussion.

Such pages can be undeleted without discussion too, but there's usually a delay, especially if you don't notice the page missing right away. Prods create undesirable gaps in the subject coverage of list sets.

I just caught one the other day, so keep an eye on the outline pages!

Tangent: Indexes[edit]

One of the benefits of reverse outlining is the discovery of problems (gaps in coverage, etc.) with the publication being outlined. We've come across several and have been fixing those as we go. Because hypertext tables of contents are only as good as the pages they link to, we've been cleaning up large sections of Wikipedia. This was something I did not foresee when I started this project.

One of the sets of pages we link to on the outlines is the set of indexes, formerly called "List of x topics". Unfortunately, the lists of topics were divided between 2 different sets competing for the same article names, and this impeded development of both sets. One of those sets were indexes, and the rest are outlines (more about these below).

So I set about splitting up the 2 sets, by renaming the indexes to "Index of x articles" or "Index of x-related articles".

All 450 or so of them.

Nobody has complained about the new names, but 2 or 3 people thought I was way too bold to attempt this without a proposal or discussion first. Just 2 or 3 people. That's about as much opposition as you could expect for moving a single page.

Not bad for a move of this volume.

There are many more indexes out there, but our main concern are those which are provided links on the outlines. Many of those are redlinks (gaps in coverage as mentioned above), and so we need a way to track these and direct editor attention to them so that somebody creates them...

So, I've created a page for the set, that parallels the OOK list:

See Portal:Contents/Index.

The complete list of "Index of" articles can be found at User:The Transhumanist/Index, and this list needs to be gone over to make sure each article index listed is included on the portal page above. If you help with this, please put - placed after each entry that you check and place.

Thank you.

To further support the development of index pages, and provide a central place for people to go to find out more about indexes and what needs to be done, I've created the Index WikiProject.

Hidden outlines[edit]

There are outline pages hiding all over Wikipedia. They aren't in OOK's formats, but we can fix that.  :)

Converting existing outlines and absorbing them into the OOK is a lot easier than creating outlines from scratch, and it avoids unnecessary duplication of effort. But before we can convert them, we have to find them...

A hunt is underway for non-OOK outlines. So far, User:Gimme danger is in the lead and has found the most. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge#The hunt for hidden outlines for more information.

Please don't rename any non-standard outlines you come across to OOK's standard naming until after you reformat them. Renaming them only after they are reformatted helps us keep track of which outlines have and have not been converted.

Thank you.

Converting outlines[edit]

The way I usually do this is by substituting the relevant outline generator template at the beginning of the outline, which forces the existing outline to the bottom of the page. Then I add an "under construction" tag, and then move all the links from the original outline to the relevant sections in the standard structure. It is important to finish the conversion quickly, so as not to create confusion. Then I scour Wikipedia for missing links (using Google to do a site-specific search of Wikipedia), to make the upgraded outline more comprehensive than the converted outline. Be sure to check all related categories too. Add a lead paragraph, add external links, and voila!

Better than before.

Where we're heading[edit]

The next phase in the evolution of this project is to increase participation by expanding the Wikipedia community's awareness of the Outline of knowledge, its purpose, and what needs to be done for any given subject.

This will entail placing banners on the outlines' talk pages, the talk page for the WikiProject associated with the subject of each outline and of each planned outline, and on the talk page of each article corresponding to each outline and to each planned outline.

Then instructions on improving subject access, including the creation and development of an outline for each subject, will be posted on every related WikiProject page. (There's a WikiProject for the subject of most outlines).

We will also be sending notices to every member of every WikiProject associated with the subject of each and every outline and planned outline.

But before this happens, the outline guidelines and the article draft for the topic "Outline" must be completed. Without these, many editors will not know what an outline is, or what to do to build and improve them.

And that's our current bottleneck.

Once those are ready (the guideline and article), we can take this project to the next level.

Keep up the good work[edit]

Well, that's all for now.

Until next time,

The Transhumanist 23:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

P.S. (Penubag)[edit]

We'll definitely need the rest of the awards in place before we take the project to the next level.

I'm not sure how long it will take me to finish up the "bottleneck". The guidelines are almost done and were easy to write. But the outline article draft is proving to be a real pain in the...

I'm finding it hard to pull away from editing outlines in order to read up on them.  :)

But it shouldn't take me too long once I do.

Just a heads up.

The Transhumanist 23:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Transhumanist! Could you please clarify what you mean by "We'll definitely need the rest of the awards in place before we take the project to the next level." What do you mean by "awards in place"? Are you referring to the creation of specific topic awards such as for medicine? -- penubag  (talk) 07:30, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I meant "awards done", "ready", "prepared", "completed", "finished". :) You mentioned that you could easily make medals for various subjects (like medicine). (Though "Health" would be better than medicine). I guess we should start at the top, and move down the hierarchy if time permits. Here's the top of our hierarchy: the broadest subjects besides Geography are Culture, Art, Health, History, Mathematics, Natural science, People, Self, Philosophy, Thought, Religion, Spirituality, Society, Social Science, and Technology.
I'm going to guess :) at what your next question will be: "When will the "next level" be?" Well, there are 3 things that need to be done before we can transcend: 1) Guidelines, 2) Projected Outline, and 3) Outline article. I'm almost done with the outline guidelines, but we keep running into editors who don't seem to know what an outline is. For example, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Outline of South Africa.
To transcend to the "next level" we'll be placing or sending thousands of notices, and this could compound the problem. If there are too many confused people, they could conceivably join together and form a consensus based on ignorance and misassumptions. And that would be bad.  :(
Therefore, I've been working on a draft to replace the article Outline that will define outlines more thoroughly, so that we can point to it from all of our notices, from the guidelines, and from the OOK WikiProject and anywhere else the OOK is introduced or discussed. That article draft is our main bottleneck at this time.
Once the article and the projected outline presented at WP:WPOOK#Projected outline are completed, we'll start our expansion phase of operations.
The guidelines might take another week. I could probably finish the projected outline in a few days after that. But the article draft may take a few weeks (it must be impeccably referenced, and this will require a lot of reading).
I'm doing a little recruiting as well, and if the right people join the effort this could speed things up. But I'm not holding my breath.
The Transhumanist 23:21, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Great! I've been itching for a new graphics project! (sorry I hadn't realized this earlier). I'll be fairly busy for a while, but I'll start cranking those out in no time! Also thanks for the status update, I'll also be happy to design the templates, if you need someone to.
Also, on an unrelated note, I found a FF addon that made me think of you, tell me if SnapLinks [2] help you at all. It can quickly open many links at once (screenshot)-- penubag  (talk) 05:49, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
What kind of text would you like on each of the medallions? Would you like to keep it at "Wikipedia World Developer"? -- penubag  (talk) 00:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
It should match each subject. "World" goes good with countries development and geography. Work on finding images to add to the medals, and I'll brainstorm some names.
  1. Culture: ?
  2. Art: ?
  3. Health: ?
  4. History: ?
  5. Mathematics: ?
  6. Natural science: ?
  7. People: ?
  8. Self: ?
  9. Philosophy: ?
  10. Thought: ?
  11. Religion: ?
  12. Spirituality: ?
  13. Society: ?
  14. Social Science: ?
  15. Technology: ?
I'm drawing a blank at the moment. But I'll think of something. :) What awards did the Wizard of Oz give out? The Transhumanist 03:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

A couple questions for you...[edit]

What are the benefits of a tree structure?[edit]

The article doesn't say.

I'm interested, because I need to explain the benefits in the guideline on outlines I'm writing. (Outlines are a type of tree structure).

I've also asked the question at various reference desks, and these threads may help to jump start your brain on this question.  :)

What are the benefits of outlines, over and above regular articles?[edit]

What benefits have you noticed?

How are Wikipedia's outlines useful to you?

I look forward to your answers on my talk page.

The Transhumanist 04:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Came across this[edit]

In all the symbol-hunting you've been having me do, I came across this: Dragon Rouge.

Too bad it belongs to a cult. It would make a pretty cool medallion.  :)

The Transhumanist 20:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

That's sweet! Maybe I can make a some thing that looks like that but not exactly. -- penubag  (talk) 02:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

WPOOK Update - 05/17/2009 - Blockbusting![edit]

This project needs another shot in the arm.

So here it goes...

Countries WikiProject Collaboration - Contests![edit]

I've contacted all 59 members of the Countries WikiProject to help in designing and conducting contests for the further development of the country outlines.

You are invited too.

Houston, we have a problem[edit]

The guidelines and outline article still aren't complete.

Which means you will be needed to help explain to the newcomers mentioned above what outlines are and how to develop them.

Please participate in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#Hosting country coverage contests.

The Transhumanist 22:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

An idea for a contest[edit]

To promote work on the country outlines, maybe a contest between country WikiProjects could be run, to see which WikiProject could develop the best country outline.

What do you think?

(I look forward to your reply on my talk page).

The Transhumanist 23:49, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure. There is less than ideal participation from the individual Wikiprojects and may only attract a few, if any, enthusiastic participants. Perhaps individually contacting and challenging the most highly active and participating users from the WProjects to a face-off may rally more support from their peers, who will in turn be ready for your next contest. But we're going to have to make this look big; lots of templates, formatting, and pretty colors. -- penubag  (talk) 06:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree that if the notices were just posted on the WikiProject talk pages, they might not get much response. But I was planning on having notices posted everywhere possible, including to all country WikiProject members, to the talk pages of the country outlines, and to the talk pages of the corresponding country articles. To the talk page of the Geography and Countries WikiProjects, and of course to the WP:CBB. Actually, there's a notice for it on the WP:CBB already.  :)
Perhaps we should post notices and banners.
The only other place I can think of announcing this would be the Signpost. Could be intersting.
Wait, just thought of more. Maybe check the histories of the various country-related articles (country, "government of", "geography of", "culture of", etc. and contact active editors?
I like your idea of impressive notices and a big promotion campaign.
How much of a build-up period (count-down) do you think we should have before the starting date of the contest? Post the count-down on the CBB? (change the date-count each day?)
What if editors start editing before the start-date?
And what about Buaidh and I, who are already editing these things on a frequent basis?
The Transhumanist 22:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Last I checked at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countries#Country_outline_contest_proposal, I hadn't seen any discussion taking place at all, but that was premature and I hadn't realized that it wasn't long after you posted there since I looked. But now I see at least 3 other interested editors, which is great. What we should do is make them sign up under a "participants" list so they feel committed to continue. We also need a centralized page for the contest (which will look fancy) with a huge count-down timer until the start of the contest. The reason we need a centralized page just for the contest is to keep it organized. I rather found it hard to keep up when there were countless user subpages of lists of articles. I originally had no idea what exactly the project was that I was making all the awards for. I looked a lot of places to find out but eventually became bored and just did everything you told me to. And other users won't be willing to spend the time to do this. I don't mean to sound bad or anything but I feel other users must have felt the same way, and the lack communication between the other users is less than ideal for motivation. Organization is key. On this centralized page, you can post your weekly news and updates; let's just hope it doesn't go to MfD. Anyways...(sorry there :) )..what we can do to obtain maximum participants is to reach out to the individual directly. This is a lot of work, but it will be worth it. "Hello username, I've noticed you've been doing a great job editing x and think you will be a worthy opponent in [[Around the World Competition]]. If you win the championship, you will be awarded a golden trophy and be titled "Champion of Whatever". I feel you have a chance at winning! Care to give it a shot?" I can help with recruiting a few people as well some of the other members. Also, advertising to reinforce the depth of this competition will be good to the user, whether invited or not, as they would feel they are a part of something important and big. You mentioned posting on the Signpost and banners in various places, which is perfect. Put banners on talk pages (which should be more invitational than of a notice), project pages, etc to rally support. Once we've gathered the participants, make it very clear they will be awarded even if they don't win but if they try hard and put effort. This might get rid of the bystander effect along with deindividuation (which in simple terms explains the phenomenon that if a large group exists, the individual is less likely to put an effort). Anyways, I'm just on a rant so just take everything as advice; do what you think is right. Also, I've replied to your transparency request on my talkpage and updated /graphics. -- penubag  (talk) 03:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
The work on the outline of knowledge has been decentralized up until now because it was essentially a proposal. Rather than posting a formal proposal at WP:VPR about making it, we instead just started making it to display it in partially completed form (i.e., developed it in place) as a model that the whole project will be based on. Why? Because how do you describe what we've built? It was far more practical to build it and show it. You can't really understand the outlines until you've seen and used them.
I tried the proposal process on part of the OOK project, a rename of the page set, and most of the participants didn't even know what I was talking about (they didn't seem to know what a topic outline was), and most of them didn't return to the discussion after their initial post (and vote) to read the explanations. Hence the alternate approach. And due to this, I couldn't post a centralized page for a contest on a project that was being developed from our talk pages.
As for contests, "Around the World" is dead. It no longer exists. That approach was thoroughly rejected. Burned with fire. This is a totally new contest concept. (Though we don't have a name for it yet). And rather than going straight to hosting and posting this new contest, we're getting community input, so that design flaws in the contest itself can be avoided, and so that any reservations can be dealt with and worked out in the contest's design.
Rather than individual contestants, the contest proposal is for WikiProjects to be the contestants. Formal teams wouldn't work well, because what do you do if a non-team member drops in and edits the page? The WikiProject will be rewarded. I guess participants could post templates designed for them on their talk page, similar to how they post their own userboxes.
Though the dynamics of the award process has yet to be worked out. But, tracking the edits of individual contestants would be virtually impossible - it would take longer than the edits themselves.
And since the Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries is sponsoring the contest, it makes sense to make the contest's central page a subpage of that WikiProject, though this hasn't been decided upon either. It's up to the group discussing it all.
I think the WikiProjects, or anyone on behalf of the various WikiProjects, should recruit participants to work on each WikiProject's respective country outline.
Just throwing in some ideas. Nothing's been worked out yet. But one thing is for sure, you and I need to keep fanning the flames so the fire doesn't go out.  :)
The Transhumanist 04:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
I understand now, thanks for explaining. It could have just been good to have been wp:BOLD and start the pages but I see that the entire thing and what to do was largely unknown. You have some intresting ideas, and the part of tracking each individual edit is going to be tough. Maybe we can employ a few referees to oversee a few editors to provide a few diffs of their work. We've still got to think this through. -- penubag  (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Request concerning "What a brilliant idea barnstar"[edit]

Barnstar-lightbulb3.png What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar
message The Transhumanist 23:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

{{What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar}}



Someone changed the picture. (See the first version in the file history).

While the new picture works great for the technology barnstar, I don't think those tech guys knew that the pic was also used in this other barnstar award.

Can you make a new image using the original version? Or a version of this...

Someone tried to revive the original at "What a Brilliant Idea!" Barnstar.png File:"What a Brilliant Idea!" Barnstar.png, but they failed to reproduce the transparent background.

Would you revive/reproduce the barnstar, with transparent background?

Good luck.

Have fun.

The Transhumanist 23:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It looks like they have a transparent background to me.
"What a Brilliant Idea!" Barnstar.png
Am I missing something? -- penubag  (talk) 02:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
It was the computer I was looking at them on. (A different library system). On this computer, the transparencies look normal. Sorry 'bout that. (sheepish grin). The Transhumanist 04:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
OK, the barnstar template is fixed: Template:What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar. The Transhumanist 05:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Hey, no problem. I'm glad to help wherever possible, even if I didn't help. Just go ahead and ask about anything else. -- penubag  (talk) 17:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Has the shit hit the fan? - WPOOK update, 05/25/2009[edit]


We've started the next phase[edit]

I was experiencing mental block on the article draft for "outline" and on the outline guideline draft. And this was holding the whole project back. Without these (which are intended to explain the type of lists known as outlines in detail), the danger is higher that a controversy could go the wrong way.

I requested help on them, but there was none forthcoming.

So I went ahead and started us on the next phase of operations without those 2 pages...

Our AWB'ers and I have placed about 1600 notices all over Wikipedia. And the plan is to place several thousand more.

This generated only one complaint, but it was a very vocal one, and attracted a few other detractors who seemed unfamiliar with the concept of hierarchical outlines and their benefits. However, just as many or more editors came to the defense of the OOK, and there was no consensus formed. But, dab is still trying to rally opposition to outlines at the Village Pump. See below...

Administrator noticeboard incident and Village Pump policy discussion[edit]

It appears that the banner placed on the talk page of the Outline of Switzerland caught the attention of an editor named Dbachmann who posted a rather forceful message on my talk page, another on WT:WPOOK, another at WP:VPP, and still another at WP:AN!

He went well out of his way to use negative hype to cause a stir.

It appears that Mr. Bachmann doesn't understand the nature of hierarchical outlines and their applications. And though he implied that he has never seen an OOK outline before, he was involved with a discussion on these when they were called "lists of basic topics".

His primary argument is that outlines are content forks of articles, and violate WP:CFORK.

But "topic lists", of which outlines are a type, have been around for almost as long as Wikipedia, and fall under the WP:LISTS and WP:STAND guidelines. They aren't intended as forks, as they are lists, bringing the benefits of lists to the corresponding subjects, such as grouping and navigation.

Someone suggested an MfD, but lists are articles, and are within the jurisdiction of AfD. Only the portal page, which merely lists the outline articles, falls within the scope of the MfD department.

The administrator's noticeboard was considered the wrong venue for the discussion, and the discussion was closed.

But Dab's discussion at the Village Pump is still active. Hopefully level heads will prevail there too.

Now what?[edit]

Am I disheartened or deterred? Hell no. I say "full steam ahead!"

But we really need to finish the article draft and the guideline. Otherwise there will continue to be confusion.

Over the next week or two, we'll be posting another 1600 or so notices. It's a good thing we didn't send out 10,000 of them all at once.  :)

The Transhumanist 23:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Another related thread has popped up at WP:VPR#OoK's expediency. --TT   04:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

WPOOK update - 05/27/2009[edit]

Input on the OOK threads at the Village Pump has died down (at both WP:VPP and WP:VPR), and there is currently no consensus on either.

Negative feedback[edit]

For the number of notices we posted (over a thousand) the number of complaints we received (the two VP threads mentioned above) was quite low.

Silent majority[edit]

Considering most of the outlines are orphans, they get pretty good use.

Note that people who are happy with articles on Wikipedia generally don't say anything, so I simply interpret it as positive feedback.

Traffic, traffic comparison, and increasing traffic[edit]

Using Traffic, I compare the traffic of articles, their corresponding outlines, and their corresponding portals from time to time.

Outlines are starting to catch up to portals. Though the main portals, which are included in a navbar menu at the top of most portals are still way ahead of their outline counterparts.

Both outlines and portals are way behind the articles on the same subjects. Articles usually have 20 to 30 times the traffic.

Keep in mind that most outlines are orphans, with the primary link to them being Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge.

Traffic should improve once we include links on the corresponding subject pages, including the main subject as well as subjects that correspond to subheadings (e.g., History of x, and in the case of countries: Geography of x, Demographics of x, Culture of x, etc.)

I'm convinced the traffic of outlines will overtake portals once we've link-integrated them into the encyclopedia. And since outlines serve as tables of contents for each subject, it seems most fitting to place links to them in the form of hatnotes at the top of each subject's main articles (and the sub-subjects mentioned in the paragraph directly above).

By the way, there's another traffic counter called Wikirank, but I haven't tested it out much yet, but will do so in the coming weeks.

Going for the Main Page[edit]

Once the traffic of outlines has overtaken portals, it will be time to replace portals on the Main Page, even if we need to spearhead a new main page redesign! This isn't a far-fetched idea. I was the one who jumpstarted and led the project responsible for the current main page design (until it hit critical mass and attracted other leaders), and I was also the most active editor on that project. I even created the WP:CBB on the Community Portal to promote the main page election. The second time around should be easier.

Back to the here and now[edit]

Targetting the Main Page is a few months off.

Right now, we need to continue posting notices and start link-integrating the OOK into the encyclopedia.

I have a whole slew of AWB tasks to assign. I hope you are ready.  :)

Spread the word[edit]

WP:WPOOK needs members. Tell all your friends about the OOK, and get them to join.

The Transhumanist 02:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Why do we have outlines in addition to...?[edit]

Wikipedia:Outlines was growing so large that I split this section off as a separate page.

I look forward to your feedback and improvements.

The Transhumanist 22:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Formal Mediation for Sports Logos[edit]

As a contributor to Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content/RFC_on_use_of_sports_team_logos, you have been included in a request for formal mediation regarding the subject at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Use of Sports Logos. With your input and agreement to work through mediation, it is hoped we can achieve a lasting solution. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Penubag, get a load of this awards page[edit]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Awards

Let me know what you think.

The Transhumanist 03:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

That's good, but I think we can do better! Once we have a physical page to work on I'll start working on a draft and you can tell me what you think. -- penubag  (talk) 23:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

More WP:WPOOK graphics thingies needed[edit]


We could sure use a userbox for the outline of knowledge wikiproject.

And an advert added to Template:Wikipedia ads would be cool. My guess is you'll find this one interesting and challenging (most of the adverts are animated!). The template is displayed on over 2000 user pages, so that would be quite a bit of exposure. Please look into it and let me know what you think.

Last but not least, we need an invitation template, to invite people to the project. It would be nice if it had an image on there.

Not to overload you or anything.  :)

The Transhumanist 02:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not perfect at animated GIFs and not even sure if the software on my computer has this capability. I'll drop you a note about this, but I think I'll be able to help out. As for the userbox and template, that sounds fun and I'll finish those soon. -- penubag  (talk) 23:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Okay, spent a few hours learning how to make animated gifs and can say with confidence that I can do it. Do you have any specific idea for the ad? -- penubag  (talk) 07:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Penubag, look at the top of these pages[edit]

For a topical guide to this subject, see Outline of Fu Manchu.

See each page, and then look at them in the edit window.

I didn't place any more because this is a test run to see how the hatnotes and their placement work (they're placed after any redir and disambig notes), and to gather feedback.

The Transhumanist 04:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you did an excellent job! Now we need someone with AWB... Once outlines have been around longer and have become in widespread use, the next ultimate step would be to have a small link in the top right corner of the actual TOC to the outline. That would be awesome! -- penubag  (talk) 23:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
It's not that simple. See User talk:The Transhumanist#OoK, Wikipedia talk:Outlines#top of article reference to outline is unnecessary spam, and WP:HATNOTE. As Quiddity said, "Slow and steady wins the race; hasty promotion will attract more vitriol than support." Which is why I only posted to about 30 outlines (instead of all 500). But he was suggesting slower still: "considering the current quality of most of the outlines". But I've been working on these since 2005. I'm not satisfied with the previous pace, or the current pace. I'm for acceleration.
Quiddity's philosophy seems to be, link to the contents stuff once it is high quality. Unfortunately, that sets up a catch-22: we need more editors, who aren't going to find the pages in the first place if we don't link to them. He maintained the same stance when I proposed to put "Contents" on the sidebar menu. Fortunately, the Wikipedia community felt differently. As Shenme put it:

A 'normal' wiki usually doesn't have a core structure, and so people don't expect it, but Wikipedia has quite a lot of material, and various ways of organizing it. Having a link in the sidebar to the contents page will help people to discover what organization there is. (whether perfect or not a separate topic). And, actually, pointing people to the contents page and getting their resulting comments will improve the page. Don't wait for the improvements first... Shenme 04:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, each of the outlines is to its subject as the contents page is to Wikipedia, so the same reasoning applies with respect to a hatnote at the top of each subject's main article.
The problem is, when you try something new on Wikipedia, the most likely people to respond will be complainers. Too many complainers = consensus. It's a quirk in the system. I ran into that problem when I tried to overhaul the Community Portal (my overhaul was rejected, except for the WP:CBB, but I was able to salvage a large part of my work as the Wikipedia:Department directory).
So, if you can expect to get one complaint for every 30 hatnotes placed, 500 hatnotes = 16 complaints = overwhelming opposing consensus, unless others come to your rescue. Because of this, I'm truly amazed that the namechange on the outlines and the indexes went through without a glitch (though renaming a few at a time would have been more confusing and would have made them seem even more out of place).
But Quiddity means well. He's not against the project, he's just against our approach. He has referred to me as "extremely confident", and to the project as "audacious", both of which terms have negative connotations.
I don't think you realize just how many times I've had to defend the outlines. Every complaint must be answered, because if they are not, they are more likely to attract agreeing posts by others who see only one side of the story. It's the "me too" or "pile-on" effect. Not catching the threads before they spiral out of control has been my biggest worry. When there's only one defender, it only takes two others to override him to form an opposing consensus. For an example of one that was localized, see talk:List of opera topics.
The Transhumanist 20:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
P.S.: I just reverted Outline of science, which one of OOK's most vociferous opponents redirected to Science, calling the outline a "cfork". A flurry of shit like this happens every time we make a major push. Dbachman surfaced after the placement of the banners to article talk pages. He apparently sees outlines as copies of or competitors to the articles. - TT 21:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
P.P.S.: The hatnotes are already starting to disappear. -TT 22:53, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
I would agree that slow and steady is the best. AWB may actually not be the best and now I can better understand the problem here. You said Quiddity wants to link to information once it's been developed, but information won't grow unless it's linked and well known. I'm not really sure how to resolve this dilemma. -- penubag  (talk) 05:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I do. We all need to watch. As in use our watchlists religiously. Every time we log on. That will increase awareness of what is going on, especially what discussions are taking place. Participation in consensus-building is key. See #On the bright side, you've got to see this..., below. The Transhumanist 00:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I know you're tied up in a library, but the best Firefox addon for this is SiteDelta. It is similar to Update Scanner but SiteDelta is far better for this purpose as it is built around the scanning pages that don't change often. It may even be worth saving your firefox preferences on an external drive and loading it on your workstation. This is really useful because it would be like having 2 separate watchlists with on-demand scan. One dedicated entirely to OOK. Try it out and let me know what you think. -- penubag  (talk) 03:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Outline update - Good news and bad news - 06/08/2009[edit]

The big push continues.

And it seems to be working!

The good news is that there's growing support for outlines, and there are more editors than ever editing them!

The bad news is that the complainers are disproportionately represented on the project's various talk pages. While many editors work diligently on the front end, a handful of complainers are trying to tear down the project behind the scenes. Fortunately, barely enough supporters have been watching those pages that no consensus for moving or merging the outlines has succeeded. So far...

Big problem: ignorance of what outlines are for and their benefits[edit]

Most of the opposition seems to be unaware of the complete range of what outlines are used for. They just don't get it.

This is why it is important to complete the outline article draft. An article with a comprehensive treatment of outlines would be the perfect place to refer anybody unfamiliar with outlines to.

Opposers also don't seem to understand how outlines differ from some other page type that they prefer. Some think articles are good enough as an overview, others think portals are more in-depth, still others think categories or navigation boxes are the most efficient and useful way to organize and present topical information. Some have simply never seen an "Outline of" page before and think they are a new type of page (they've been around under other names since 2001).

If you run across anyone who doesn't understand the role of outlines on Wikipedia, Wikipedia:Why do we have outlines in addition to...? might help reduce their misconceptions or uncertainties about outlines.

On the bright side, you've got to see this...[edit]

To add the outlines and related support pages to your watchlist (takes less than 30 seconds), cut and paste them from Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Watchlist into your raw watchlist. For a way to improve the display of your watchlist - by namespace (very useful) - see Watchlist sorter, or use the "super fast upgrade" at WP:OTS.

Or go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Watchlist using Related changes (currently without the talk pages) and click on "Related changes" in the toolbox menu on the sidebar on the left side of your screen.

The big push[edit]

The big push started with about a thousand banners and notices being placed on article talk pages all over Wikipedia.

But it didn't stop there...

Welcome our new members...[edit]

The following Wikipedians have joined the OOK team.

Be sure to stop by their talk pages and introduce yourselves.

Enter the mentors![edit]

I asked a bunch of mentors at WP:ADOPT for advice. Several of them answered on my talk page. Most of those who replied were happy to help, and posted some very good ideas. A couple even joined the project.

Here are their ideas, and what is being done about them. A few of the tasks still need volunteers:

Linking to outlines has begun[edit]

To the tops of about 30 subject articles, I placed a test batch of hatnotes leading to the corresponding outlines. The hatnotes look like this:

For a topical guide to this subject, see Outline of X.(Hidden: <!- PLEASE LEAVE THIS LINE IN PLACE because it leads to the page that serves as the table of contents for Wikipedia's overall coverage of this subject. Thank you.-->

The rationale for the hatnotes is that each outline is a topical guide for its subject, and since tables of contents go at the front of a book, a link to each outline should be placed at the front of its subject.

Unfortunately, not all editors agree. Some of the hatnotes have already disappeared.  :(

Some past discussions pertaining to the existence or location of outlines[edit]

Note that the "Lists of topics" are of two types, including outlines and indexes, so discussions to remove, move, or merge those are usually relevant to the OOK. Also, outlines are a type of list, so discussions that affect lists in general also pertain to outlines. We've got to be on our toes!

I've excluded links to live discussions, out of respect for WP:CANVASS.

Table of contents to OOK-related stuff[edit]

Here's a directory of outline support pages:

Keep up the great work![edit]

The Transhumanist 03:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for this update, I will add this onto my todo list [3]. It will be done eventually. -- penubag  (talk) 05:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Watchers needed[edit]


Please follow the watchlist editing instructions at #On the bright side, you've got to see this..., above.

Then check your watchlist every time you log on.

Thank you.

The Transhumanist 01:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Chocolate banner[edit]

Sorry for replying exclusively on my talk page but I didn't want to start a bunch of new sections. -- penubag  (talk) 18:08, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Replied here [4]. -- penubag  (talk) 07:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Well I spent several hours learning how to make animated Gifs (or relearning what I've forgotten from class long ago) and I made a mock up ad for OOK! How's it? In the ad, I tried to explain a little what an outline was, as you suggested on my talk, many don't know. Do you have any suggestions?-- penubag  (talk) 08:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I guess we are going to need an Outline of chocolate now.
Some comments/suggestions:
  1. "Welcome to Wikipedia" is cut off along the top edge
  2. the "a" at the end of "humongous enclopedia" is cut off
  3. have just a little more delay before "hope you can find them all" pops up, and a little less delay afterward.
  4. remove the underlines from the example chocolate articles titles
  5. make the example titles appear in a more random shotgun blast sort of way
  6. could you present more example titles to make an impact? As soon as the first five are on there, have one disappear and another one appear somewhere else, then a couple more (not quite at the same time), etc. - maybe 10 to 12 titles total. "Big Chocolate" would be a fun one to add. see more at: this Google search for Wikipedia articles with "chocolate" in their titles (pick the wildest or weirdest or most interesting ones)
  7. change "there's an inconceivable amount of articles on chocolate!" to "there's an inconceivable number of articles on chocolate!"
  8. In the last frame, change "Outline of" to "Outline of choco....' having it fade off a little more gradually.
The main blurb that explains outlines needs to be worked on. It presents a claim that isn't true - we'll get jumped on for it. Also, many editors are going to think, "I thought that's what categories were for".
I'll see what I can come up with.
There should be enough for you to work on in the list above for now.
And by the way, I like it!
I'll be in touch.
The Transhumanist 01:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Sounds like good ideas, I'll do that now.
The reason I used chocolate was to make it more interesting so users continue watching a long ad. But perhaps you'd like to showcase a well developed outline instead?
I purposely cut a little off on the top on the first frame because I think it looks nicer. Having the Welcome template right in the middle looks slightly wiered. I could shrinken the image if you prefer it though. The rest of your suggestions will be done soon. -- penubag  (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Chocolate is perfect. Don't worry about the outline, the rest of us will create it.  :)
You are right. Leaving it cut off clarifies the context.
The Transhumanist 03:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Awesome. That must have taken forever! –Juliancolton | Talk 02:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Learning how to do it took longer. -- penubag  (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
i dislike all animated or flashing banners. For some people, they even cause access difficulties. the W3C universal accesscode permits them only under limitations, but I don't think we should even come near that. DGG (talk) 02:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree with you, that's why the only place this will probably appear is on Template:Wikipedia ads -- penubag  (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Very cool. 10 points! (Redeemable for valuable prizes :P) How about a short one (three or four frames) for people with short attention sp- bunny! (There was an edit conflict and DGG makes an extremely good point. How to balance my love flashing lights with my desire that everyone be able to edit.) --Gimme danger (talk) 02:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Interestingly, I was thinking the same thing, that the banner being too long would affect how it's viewed. I tried making it a little more intresting so others would continue watching it but that may not cut it. Do you have any specific suggestions? -- penubag  (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
The things that made me look up kitten pictures: the search animation, the long pause on the "Isn't there another way?"-like question, the amount of text on the we-need-your-help image. Personally, I don't think we should have the "why should one article explain it all?" because it has viewers thinking of why it is a good idea to put all the information in one place. Plus, extra seconds wasted. If you could trim a fraction of a second off of each frame too, that would help a lot. --Gimme danger (talk) 02:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Wow, very well done. Just a few minor notes: The part that shows the 5 different types of chocolate articles is cut off a little at the top. Perhaps you could fix that? Also, the "click here" button doesn't work; is there any way to make it work using GIFs? Other than that though; wonderful job! NW (Talk) 02:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I'll fix the spacing. The click here is a feature of Wikipedia software. When I enter the image into template:Wikipedia ads I'll specify the image target link like how any other image link can be made. -- penubag  (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
My three cents: I love using chocolate as the example, I'm not fond of animated stuff, and I think it's too long (as measured in seconds, not in pixels). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, like I said above, I was worried about this. I have yet decided what to do. -- penubag  (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Can the "click here" be more prominent? It would be more noticeable that way. --Patar knight - chat/contributions 02:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I'll beef up the entire thing. The click here will be big and glossy. -- penubag  (talk) 02:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
The whole thing will be clickable, right? I mean, if you click anywhere on it at any time, it will take you to WP:WPOOK? The Transhumanist 02:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Yup, see the comments above. This will be done when it's inserted into template:wikipedia ads. Alternatly, you could do [[File:Qxz-ad184.gif|link=WP:OOK]]. By the way, good job obtaining so many suggestions. You have a real way of doing that :) -- penubag  (talk) 03:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Next set of updates done[edit]

^^ Despite requests to make it shorter, it is in fact longer. :( It's just too hard to cut stuff out. -- penubag  (talk) 07:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

no need to shorten it. The machine gunning of chocolate articles is perfect.
Here are some more suggestions:
  1. Change the number to 3,000,000
  2. fasion is spelled "fashion".  :)
  3. Change "Could you find what you are looking for?" to "Can you find what you are looking for?"
  4. Instead of the green and red arrow, how would a mouse cursor clicking on the "click here" box look? Or has that been overdone?
I'm still thinking about the main blurb. It needs to be changed so that "...but we need your help!" makes sense.
I'll be in touch. The Transhumanist 18:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Alright, rolled out all your suggestions -- penubag  (talk) 20:21, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
How about this for a blurb:
"Outlines help you find your passion. They show subjects in an organized fashion."
passion --> chocolate. Get it?
Thanks to Quiddity, I have grooks on the brain.
Let me know if you like it.
The Transhumanist 20:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Yup I like it, but not sure if it makes perfect sense and the injoke is hardly noticeable. -- penubag  (talk) 22:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, replace the big long blurb with it, and then we'll see what the group thinks of it. The Transhumanist 22:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
The one thing that I wonder if you could do is slow down the speed of the article titles that appear (ie: History of chocolate, pause, toxicity of chocolate in animals, pause, etc.), as least for the beginning few. That allows a sense of "Oh my god it is coming right at me, I can't stop it"; I feel. Other tahn that though, great job! NW (Talk) 23:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Need help explaining WikiCup proposal[edit]

I posted a proposal to add outlines to next year's WikiCup, and nobody there seems to understand outlines.


The Transhumanist 04:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

We're working on it...[edit]


Here's the notice I sent out to the team concerning that need you created...  :)

I think that's awesome! Maybe I'll give it a little try. -- penubag  (talk) 22:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Outline collaboration![edit]

As you know, Penubag is working on a banner to advertise the Outline WikiProject. And he's almost done.

The banner prominently presents the "Outline of chocolate", which of course will become the most widely advertised outline as soon as the banner goes live. The first thing many editors will do after seeing the banner is look for that outline.

The problem is, we don't have one.

So that's our first outline collaboration!

I started a draft this morning.

It needs to be finished and moved to the article namespace before we can start using Penubag's banner ad!

Come join in on the fun. It's chocolate!

The Transhumanist 21:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


thanks for all your work on this i am not sure quite where i should post now

i think i got it wrong in the german it is erzaszcaffe i just mispelled.

SimonTrew (talk) 16:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome, I appreciate your regards -- penubag  (talk) 07:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

It looks the same[edit]

Is it a different file?

The Transhumanist 23:41, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you have to clear your cache. -- penubag  (talk) 23:44, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it's done! I'm about to be logged off today, but I will post a note to the others the next time I log on. Let's see what the gang thinks.  :) The Transhumanist 23:51, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject page draft[edit]

I've merged (and redirected) your draft into the main WikiProject page. (WP:WPOOK).

Feel free to organize it as you see fit (including moving stuff to subpages or whatever you have in mind).

So far, so good!

Thank you.

Good luck.

Have fun.

The Transhumanist 22:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll need some time for this . But it'll be done soon (hopefully)-- penubag  (talk) 07:31, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Let's go live with the banner[edit]

For some reason, they've been answering on my talk page about the banner. Only 2 so far, but they love it, and my guess is so will everybody else.

Nicely done, Penubag.

So I guess this means...

Put it on the air. Take it live. Hook it up. Install it. Or whatever you call it!  :)

Thank you.

Good luck.

Have fun.

The Transhumanist 02:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your support[edit]

Team Barnstar.png The Teamwork Barnstar
is hereby awarded to Penubag for working so well with everyone on the OOK WikiProject, in the utilization of feedback on graphics creations, and jumping in to help wherever needed. Thank you! The Transhumanist 21:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Main justification for outlines[edit]

In Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge#Why does Wikipedia need outlines?, the water example is mostly irrelevant, because the way 99% of readers access a subject is via a search box (Google's, or Wikipedia's). If you type in "Water", you'll get the water article, which has a link to water (properties) right at the top. So why do we need an outline on water? (Or on any subject for that matter).

An "Outline of water" would be very useful. But for what?  :)

The section needs to explain why we need outlines in addition to (or in relation to) search engines.

The Transhumanist 22:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the barnstar, I appreciate it! It means a lot coming from you, but you are much more deserving of one!
As for the water, I chose that because I've had problem finding the proper article myself. I was doing a chemistry assignment and the regular Water article wasn't as comprehensive as Water (properties). But then I found out we even had articles on Water_(data_page) and Color of water, which would have been very helpful had I known they existed.
But we also don't have an outline for water, so it may be better to demo a well developed outline. If you have any good ideas, just go ahead and change it as you see fit. -- penubag  (talk) 18:15, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
That sheds light on your perspective... Hatnotes can be easily missed, while an outline formally presents the links in context to the subject of the outline. Makes sense.
We don't have an outline on water (yet). But Outline of chocolate is approaching completion, and we're almost due for another collaboration.  :)
The Transhumanist 18:16, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
P.S.: a useful outline can be constructed in 3 to 8 hours. A refined outline in 3 to 8 days (assuming an 8-hour shift per day).
Yeah, that's particularly why I'm in such support for Outlines, it's happened to me many times before. Thanks for the foreshadow on outline of water :) That'll be nice. Yeah, Hatnotes are really easily missed, but much better than buried down in the See Also section. Once we create enough outlines, as in outlines for all subjects and their sub sub categories, then I'm really going to push for a link in the TOC. That's where it's really needed. But that may be a few years down the road. -- penubag  (talk) 09:03, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I've found that pushing sooner is better than later, unless there is a specific strategic reason not to. For example, I held off heavily integrating the outlines into the encyclopedia until after they had been renamed to "Outline of". Also, we continued holding off after the rename, to give the new name time to season. Jumping too soon afterwards could have attracted opposition and an effort to overturn the rename. But now, after three months, the new name is pretty strongly entrenched and has attained widespread acceptance.
In the case of hatnotes, we should push push push. Aggressively. Note that the main opposer in the discussion Wikipedia talk:Outlines#top of article reference to outline is unnecessary spam supported placing hatnotes for each outline that was the same or better quality as the subject's main article.
Also keep in mind that the current consensus was arrived at in a discussion of 3 people (where I was outvoted 2 to 1). That's a dam made out of twigs.
Push push push.
The Transhumanist 22:24, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
P.S.: please don't add to that 2v1 discussion, because it could be considered canvassing on my part. Thank you.
It's unfortunate how every person needs everything to be spelled out, and by the time they understand, they've either become too stubborn or too loyal to the opposing side they refuse to cooperate. I've had a similar experience and noted it below. -- penubag  (talk) 07:25, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Potential quote?[edit]

See what Susan had to say about the OOK here.

The Transhumanist 18:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I think something Susan said would be good to use. Just give me the cue. -- penubag  (talk) 09:03, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

WPOOK's advert banner is done![edit]

This looks just great, Y've done a great job there !!! Galoubet (talk) 12:57, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Regex lesson[edit]

I just got a little regex lesson from the guys over at WP:VPT, and I've copied it to User:The Transhumanist/Regexes.


The Transhumanist 19:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I've been meaning to learn regex more thoroughly anyways. This will help me in the future. -- penubag  (talk) 09:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I forgot to forward the following message to you earlier...[edit]


Hey transhumanist thanks for your note on my talk page. i have left a cpouple of thoughts on the article talk page i appreciate it is early days so havent cleaned up the page at all but more than happy to sub it at the appropriate time. i was thinking that the banner should be white on purple cadburys style (that is quite global in the us they licence to hersheys) but that may be even as colours a copyright or trademark infringement i am not sure. SimonTrew (talk) 05:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

to give an example the post office says "the colour red is a trademark of the post office". now obviously that doesnt stop people using the colour red, but it is a trademark in that particular context i.e. nobody else can come along and put down red post boxes. you see what i mean so i think purple on white would be extremely identifiable but for that exact reason could be a trademark infringement. SimonTrew (talk) 05:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying the hole ad should have a purple border with white text? Or the whole ad be purple with white text? I'm not too fond of either idea. A purple border would shrinken the size of the ad and the visible text, and it would be hard to have a purple background /white text because the text would be harder to read especially with some of the font colors I have. -- penubag  (talk) 09:13, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Outline update - Full Steam Ahead! - 06/18/2009[edit]

Several members of the WikiProject have been hard at work.

Buaidh has been building and refining the outlines on the U.S. States, the states' historical outlines, and the Historical outline of the United States. Lately, his edits have dominated the project's watchlist readout. (I think he's overdue for a barnstar or two. hint hint)

Penubag has been working on medals for all the main branches of the OOK, and has completed the OOK WikiProject's animated advert banner (see below).

Highfields has been filling in the currencies for each country on their respective outlines.

NuclearWarfare and Thehelpfulone have been busy with WP:AWB, posting banners and notices, and helping our sister project, the Index WikiProject, get established. Indexes work hand-in-hand with the outlines and are prominently linked to from the top of most of them. And the outlines, which serve as tables of contents, are only as good as the pages they link to.

Since we started integrating (linking) the OOK and its support pages into the encyclopedia and into the Wikipedia community, activity on outlines has been increasing. Though there's still much left to do.

But I digress. There are a couple more...

Welcome our new members! Stefan and MacMed[edit]

Stefan is building the Outline of sharks.

MacMed has joined our advanced wiki-tools team, and is currently adding links to outlines in the corresponding subject articles' see also sections.

Be sure to stop by their talk pages and say "hi".

WPOOK's advert banner has gone live![edit]

Penubag has finished this WikiProject's animated advert banner, and it is now being displayed on the Wikipedia ads template which in turn is displayed on about 2000 user pages. Each time someone access one of those pages, there is a 1 in 184 chance of them viewing this:

If you'd like to display the banner on your userpage locked-on to the ad as above, use the following code:

{{Wikipedia ads|ad=184}}

Watchers needed![edit]

If you haven't already, please add the entire project's watchlist to your watchlist. Here's how:

From the edit window, copy and paste Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Watchlist into your raw watchlist.
Or go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Watchlist using Related changes and click on "Related changes" in the toolbox menu in Wikipedia's sidebar on the left hand side of the screen.

Check the watchlist every time you log on![edit]

I forgot to mention this step above.  :)

The OOK is in 5 other Wikipedias?[edit]

I can't make heads or tails of 'em, but these links were on Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge:

Resurrected from the grave yard...[edit]

I discovered an AfD discussion on possibly the first article named "Outline of", which was called Outline of Islamic and Muslim related topics, and which was created 4 years ago. Of course they deleted it. But now it has many friends, and so it has risen from the dead.  :)

See the DRV discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 June 7#Outline of Islamic and Muslim related topics.

A diamond buried in project space[edit]


Recruiters needed. Drop me a note if you are interested.

Advice from the mentors[edit]

  • Astatine-210, Strdst grl, and Willscrlt - link to the outlines from the corresponding subject articles' see also sections - this is underway by MacMed (non-country outlines) and User talk:NuclearWarfare (counry outlines).
  • Astatine-210 - add a link to the outlines to the disambiguation pages of the corresponding subjects - good idea. Since "Outline" is just the type of page, not the subject, I think these might qualify for inclusion on disambiguation pages. We need someone to look into the relevant guidelines on this.
  • SimonTrew - provide a badge (userbox) for WPOOK members to add to their user pages - Penubag will have one for us soon.
  • Zachary crimsonwolf - create a card explaining outlines, and send it to everyone you know, and make it viral (by including a request for the recipients to send the card to everyone they know) - this task has been split in three:
  1. Creation of a "thank you for your interest" card which introduces (explains) outlines, to send to queriers, new participants to discussions, those who seem to be confused about outlines, etc.
  2. Creation of a thank you card / invitation to the WPOOK, to send to users we see working on outlines, including a request for them to invite others whom they think might be interested
3. Creation of an invitation to Wikignomes, with a brief rundown on the types of tasks there are for them to do on the outlines. The invitation will include a request for them to invite anyone they think would enjoy working on outlines.
  • weebiloobil - add examples to Wikipedia:Outlines - more examples will be added as suitable outlines are completed
  • weebiloobil - add a picture to Wikipedia:Outlines (it doesn't have to be relevant), to provide atmosphere and to break it up visually and add a splash of color - will do, and we'll add a caption to make it relevant, with a link to the outline on that subject. Thank you for the idea.
  • Zachary crimsonwolf - ask Jimbo Wales to bestow the award(s) for the country outlines contest, once you get it going first - we'll give that a try
  • Zachary crimsonwolf - ask everyone in the project to inform their acquaintances around Wikipedia about the OOK - will do, as soon as the cards
  • UzEE - collaborate with all the WikiProjects you share scope with - we've placed a banner on their talk pages, and have placed task notices on some. We'll be posting more tasks, and plan to create a section on contents system development and maintenance for each WikiProject page itself.
  • SriMesh - if you can't get outlines added to next year's WikiCup, then create your own WikiCup-like contest - there's 6 months left to this year to address reservations and work out the details at WikiCup. In the meantime, there's the 200-WikiProject contest, which needs input.

More outline tasks[edit]

New outlines in article space[edit]

New outline drafts[edit]

Main discussion pages[edit]

Keep up the great work[edit]

I'm impressed with the level of enthusiasm and work going into the outlines. I'm proud to be working with each of you.

The Transhumanist 21:44, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

This is great! It finally looks like this long awaited project has gained momentum! It's come a long way. -- penubag  (talk) 09:15, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Why watchlist?[edit]

Here's why:

Wikipedia talk:Outlines#top of article reference to outline is unnecessary spam.

I was very disappointed that I had to fight that one alone. Especially since the project lost.

It presents us with a setback.

The Transhumanist 22:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Most people don't want to watchlist because they do not want to clutter their already-full watchlist. If we ask people to kindly install UpdateScanner if they have FireFox, they can add the project watchlist to it and won't clutter their watchlist in the process. -- penubag  (talk) 06:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Why wait?[edit]

You mentioned you planned on waiting (years) to push the issue of better linking.

My opinion is that you shouldn't wait. Waiting just delays results (most of the time).

I'm not going to wait years for better link positioning. I've been working on this project 4 years already!

The important issue is what is best for the readers of the encyclopedia.

Should we wait until the quality of the outlines relative to the corresponding main subject articles is equal (or better)?

How would that help the reader?

It wouldn't. Hidden or buried outlines don't help those who don't find them.

If the outlines are useful for finding subject matter, then the links to them should be placed where they will do the reader the most good - that is, where they are relevant.

One argument against this approach is that an unfinished outline does more harm than good, pulling readers away from a page that will serve them better (the main subject article).

But there have been no studies done on this. There is no quantified data on how well readers are served by the two page types. It's all guesswork.


Push push push.

The Transhumanist 22:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Influence builds over time, not by waiting to influence, but by effort to influence. The more you try to influence, the more influence you acquire. It's an active (not a passive) process.

Yes I realize that. But the goal I said I was going to push for was linking outlines from the TOC. TOC in Table of Contents! The Table of Contents is generated by WikiMedia software and in order to get the link on it would require a huge consensus in order for the developers to do anything. We would at least need outlines for each subject and their sub sub categories and they'd all have to be complete for even a consideration. Pushing too soon would cannibalize the project. I've tried something like this before. I wanted to get a link on the left sidebar to link to the Simple English Wikipedia whenever one was available (example) . The main argument was that the Simple English Wikipedia wasn't complete enough for the public! That is a lousy argument because linking to it would exponentially increase the quality as new editors flowed in. This is what will happen to the Outline of Knowledge if I started a discussion. But once a lot more outlines are complete, this goal will become much more feasible, although it still probably won't happen. -- penubag  (talk) 06:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I like your new user page[edit]

When are you taking it live?

The Transhumanist 22:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, you mean that old page? That's been my front userpage for a long time but after a while I felt it was too "in your face" kind of thing, and more revealing than I'd like. But I still kept it so anyone who's really interested enough about me could still click that bird and go straight to that page. (You did know clicking the bird brought you to the page right?) Oh well, lots of people must click it since I still get a few emails once in a while asking me if they can use my work on their site. -- penubag  (talk) 07:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Nope, never clicked on it. Didn't have a clue. The Transhumanist 01:29, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

OOK Userboxes[edit]

Userbox 1[edit]

Please rename:



Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/User member

Yup, I will do that. You must of viewed that userbox in Internet Explorer or something because it looked beautiful in Firefox and looked humongous in IE (which is what your edit summary said when you removed the images). I was intending on fixing it for IE but hadn't got around to it, but I think I'll have to make a new image there. I'll move the page once it's done. (Damn IE... ) -- penubag  (talk) 07:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I finished the userboxes and moved them to project space. You can see Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/userboxes for all three. Tell me what you think! -- penubag  (talk) 18:13, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Userbox 2[edit]

"This user has created {{{1}}} outlines."

Userbox 3[edit]

This one goes in user space:

"This user likes browsing outlines"

have fun[edit]

The Transhumanist 23:24, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, expect all those done soon! -- penubag  (talk) 07:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, all done, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/userboxes. -- penubag  (talk) 18:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I changed the section a little on WP:WPOOK. The Transhumanist 01:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
By the way, each user box should be a different color. In case users display more than one. It's splashier. The Transhumanist 01:31, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Outline collaboration #2: Outline of Gibraltar[edit]

This outline is approaching completion.

I added a bunch more links, finding them with the following Google site-specific searches of Wikipedia:

(You can use the wikicode for the links above as the basis for new searches - just replace "Gibraltar" with any other country or region name).

Request: please redirect the redlinks! (bluelinking...)[edit]

The redlinks need to be bluelinked where possible. The most useful way is to create redirects leading to the material (which is usually included in a section of an article - see Wikipedia:Redirect#Redirects to page sections. That way, when the redirect pages are replaced by the actual articles, the links will already point to the right places.

Please take a crack at it, and bluelink a few.

Thank you.

Good luck.

Have fun.

The Transhumanist 00:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


I had a hard time breaking the ice and getting people to use Linky, until after I wrote this tutorial: WP:LINKY.

Now I include LINKY and the steps for using it directly in the tasks I assign. And my assignees are actually using it!

If we had a similar tutorial on UpdateScanner, we could incorporate it into our operations much more easily.

Feel up to it?  :)

The Transhumanist 18:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem is I'm torn between UpdateScanner and SiteDelta. SiteDelta has wayy better features including watching only portions of a page rather than the whole, but the false positives are a little higher. I was discussing it with the developer and he might be able to fix it up. Until then I'll hold off. -- penubag  (talk) 07:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Nice project page[edit]

Makes me feel like I'm visiting a foreign country.  :)

Which reminds me, I'm way overdue for a trip.

The only problems I could find were pretty minor:

  1. The overflow (scrolling) feature isn't working on the volunteer section.
  2. You misspelled "knowledge". Including in the awesome glitzy heading of the page...

Rainbow trout transparent.png Whack!

You've been whacked with a wet trout.

Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know you did something silly.

(I couldn't resist).  :)

By the way, I really like the little asterisks with the pop-up notes. Nice touch.

The Transhumanist 23:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

From an WP:ACCESS point, they're bad. Qf WT:ACCESS#Tooltip template. Also, the list of usernames doesn't want to scroll for me. Matthewedwards :  Chat  00:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The tooltips and the scrolling both don't work for me. MacMedtalkstalk 01:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm feeling really stupid right now, especially with trout slime on my face thanks to TT.  :) also since I deleted my layered file thinking "why would I need to keep this?"... Anyways, the overflow doesn't work because it doesn't need to right now. Once the names fill horizontally, it will work. Just being prepared for when it does. Addressing the users against the tooltips, the tooltips are trivial, the information they present are just "FYI", "in case you wanted to know", or "explain a little" type thing. They're no biggy. -- penubag  (talk) 07:56, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Vertically. The volunteer list is cut off vertically.
Willscrlt has written an in-depth and excellent critique of the project's main page on my talk page. The Transhumanist 16:30, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I've rewritten the 2 top sections based on Willscrlt's advice. The Transhumanist 23:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The volunteer section is messy - the columns don't line up. The Transhumanist 23:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Your revisions are good, but I suppose at this point it's all a matter of preference. I think enlarging the cell spacing makes the page look more bulky and large, rather than trim and neat. Also, the bulleted explanations at the top are good for lazy folks like me but don't nearly pack much a punch in debates. I also fixed the volunteer section now they should be fine now. -- penubag  (talk) 09:41, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Gimmedanger's name falls below the bottom edge of the box. The Transhumanist 17:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


Hmmm... I don't see that (in my screenshot above), but it might be your browser. If so, adjust the volunteer section so it works in your browser. Care to show me a screenshot? -- penubag  (talk) 00:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:WPOOK front page and contest page[edit]

I've replied [on your talk page] to Willsc. about it. I don't think the bullets are as concise as the explanations nor hold as well against debates. Maybe we need a hybrid? Also, the volunteer section should be working and fully aligned now. (just bypass your cache). I will work on the contest section now. But before I do that, the contest is going to be a Wikiproject vs. Wikiproject thing/"subject representatives" contest right? I need a bit more info before can I construct the rest of the contest and the page.-- penubag  (talk) 10:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm very happy that we're pulling you deeper into the project.  :) Exhilarating, isn't it?
I anticipate that the OOK will grow exponentially, and so we've got to make the core pages good as we can make them, to minimize confusion and conflict as people join in on the effort to build the OOK. Once these are completed, we can begin posting notices and invites concerning outlines for eligible subjects that don't have them yet (thousands).
Debates are most likely to occur at Wikipedia talk:Outlines.
The bulleted lists complement the descriptive prose that we have elsewhere (at Portal:Contents, Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge, WP:OUTLINE, Wikipedia:Lists#Types of lists, Template:WikiProject Outline of knowledge (posted on every outline talk page), and Template:Outline of knowledge coverage (posted on the talk page of all the subjects and Wikiprojects that correspond to an outline).
I've added a link at the top of the project page to WP:OUTLINE, the key page about building outlines.
I have bigger plans for your paragraphs. They need to be picked apart, condensed, and adapted/rewritten for inclusion on About Wikipedia (accessible from every page on Wikipedia), on Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists (a critical guideline that is seriously out-of-date), Wikipedia:Basic navigation (a key page of the help system). The OOK also needs some tips added to the WP:TOTD and Tips library, and one or more of those need to describe the OOK.
re: contest
The WikiProject angle isn't looking so good. Many of the wikiprojects have cobwebs.  :( We will certainly post notices to every relevant WikiProject, and to all their members. But I think the focus will be on country outline vs. country outline. Contestants will team up by jumping on the outline they want to work on, and the judges will pick the best outline. The editors of the winning outlines (1st through 5th?) will get awards, and an award and/or award announcement will be posted on the talk pages of the winning outlines, and on the WikiProjects corresponding to those outlines.
I hope I've been of help.
The Transhumanist 18:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Yup, so far I have to say OOK is a lot of fun, and now makes up all my time on Wikipedia. Since you have a better grasp on the project, I'll let you decide what's best for the wpook intro. As for the contest, we're focusing on country outlines only? I thought they were for the most part, complete. Well, when that phase is over, I'm thinking we have one subject area compete against themselves at a time. Like for example, one month we'll host the Physical sciences contest where each subject branch could be a team. Physics team vs Chemistry team vs Astronomy team etc could become a scenario. We would of course go to the wikiproject and ask which contestants are up for it. How would that sound? What should I base the page layout on? -- penubag  (talk) 09:20, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
The first contest should be on country outlines. Because of their sheer number and each outline's scope (a whole country!), finishing these is a colossal project in its own right, and will require the most editors by far. We have the award pics ready and waiting (which we invested a lot of time and effort into). And our outline development priority is to complete as many outlines as possible as soon as possible, to provide a strong example of quality for others to strive for.
The geography section represents almost half the outlines. If we can handle that, we can handle all the rest in a single contest. This would make a bigger splash and take less time. Then we could shift focus to creating new outlines, and run a contest for developing their drafts. The Transhumanist 18:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Outline update - Push push push - 06/25/2009[edit]

Work is proceeding apace...

New members

The current consensus is that we can't place a hatnote leading to an outline at the top of a subject articles unless the outline being presented is of at least the same quality-level as the article.

What's next...

Improve outline quality by completing them.

Place hatnotes for the outlines of high enough quality.

Guidelines pertaining to outlines need to be updated. Outlines emerged as a class of pages only a few months ago, and most of the relevant guidelines don't cover them specifically. For example, Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists is incredibly out of date.

Invite wikignomes, wikielves, and wikifairies (all 2500+ of them) to help on the outlines .

Identify 600 more subjects with coverage extensive enough to justify outlines, create rudimentary drafts for them, and post notices to the corresponding WikiProjects and subject talk pages to help build them.

Convert outlines titled "List of" to outline articles, and add them to the OOK. There are a few hundred of these. Conversion instructions are needed.

Add a description of outlines to About Wikipedia and Wikipedia:Basic navigation, and add tips about outlines to the WP:TOTD and Tips library.

Keep up the great work!

The Transhumanist 20:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for mediation not accepted[edit]

Exquisite-folder4.png A Request for Mediation to which you were are a party was not accepted and has been delisted.
You can find more information on the case subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Use of Sports Logos.
For the Mediation Committee, Ryan Postlethwaite 02:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management.
If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

NICE interface modification: We need more users![edit]

Hello. I am one of the developers of the NICE tool and the related study's contact person. I see that you have installed our tool in your second account (User:Penubag Sock). I hope you have been finding the modification helpful so far. We have been gathering users for a little over a month now, but we haven't gotten as many users as we had hoped. We'd appreciate it if you would share the NICE tool with any editors that might find it useful. --EpochFail (talk|contribs) 17:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I will have an evaluation for you soon and notify you on your talk -- penubag  (talk) 09:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
That sounds great. Thanks! --EpochFail (talk|contribs) 19:57, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Penubag. You have new messages at EpochFail's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Request for feedback[edit]

Minnecologies has done an incredible amount of work on Outline of forestry and posted a note to me on my talk page requesting feedback.

I've posted my observations at Talk:Outline of forestry#Finished outline review.

Please take a look at the outline and let Minnecologies know what you think of it on the outline's talk page.

Thank you.

The Transhumanist 19:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC) Delivered by JCbot (talk) at 20:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC).

Outline Update - Exhausted - 07/10/2009[edit]

I'm sorry that I haven't been available to assign tasks lately. For the past 3 days (not including today) I've been almost totally consumed in discussions concerning the location and very existence of outlines. Today I finally broke free and got back to work on outlines. Felt good.

A great deal has been happening with outlines and behind the scenes. I just don't have time to tell you all about it this time around. Here's the best I can do...

How to watch what's going on with outlines

If you'd like a bird's eye view of everything that's happening with respect to outlines, see this page:

  • WP:OOKWL - watchlist for copying and pasting into your raw watchlist.

Or go to these pages (and click on "Related changes" in the sidebar's toolbox menu):

  • WP:OOKRC - a version of the above watchlist for use with "Related changes".
  • WP:OOKDIR - a list of key pages related to the OOK, along with their shortcuts.
  • WP:OOKDISC - list of discussions pertaining to outlines.
Recently converted to outlines

These outline articles, which were named "List of...", have been converted to an OOK format:


I know you stress everyone to watch the ook pages but they're reluctant to do so because they don't want to clutter their watchlists. If they are told about the addon, SiteDelta, then they may change their minds. I've written a guide here User:Penubag/SiteDelta but it's not very good. Anyone can really find out how to use it on their own so it's not really a problem. What do you say? -- penubag  (talk) 09:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Or go to WP:OOKRC and click on Related changes in Wikipedia's sidebar menu.
The tutorial is  Done
But how do you load 1000 Wikipedia pages (plus their talk pages) into SiteDelta all at once?
The Transhumanist 19:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Recently merged into outlines

There are a lot of "List of" articles that are outlines. Some of them are on the same subjects as the "Outline of" articles. The following one have been recently merged:

The Transhumanist 01:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


On wp:ook the Health section and the People and Self section are very short but are pretty much the same. Can those topics be renamed and merged? -- penubag  (talk) 07:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Preferably not. The people section will be one of the largest sections! In the encyclopedia, there are hundreds of outlines of various types of people. We simply haven't worked on that section much yet because we chose to work on Geography instead, for various reasons. The people section is slated for major development further down the road. The Transhumanist 02:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the info, I see now. -- penubag  (talk) 09:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The more extensive the OOK becomes, the more likely we'll be able to absorb the people lists into it without opposition. If we build another branch or two up to the level of extensiveness of the geography branch, I think it will be a no brainer that the OOK is the best method to showcase the people lists. The Transhumanist 23:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

barnstars for outline editing?[edit]

More and more editors are discovering outlines and working on them!

I've come across some that I feel compelled to award barnstars for.

I awarded one at User talk:Tiamut#You deserve this..., but it didn't feel like it was coming from WP:WPOOK.

Please have a look.

The Transhumanist 23:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying we should have a WP:WPOOK barnstar? That's good but it might be better to just have a general Outline Barnstar. What do you think? -- penubag  (talk) 00:34, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
How about...
  1. Outline Barnstar (for excellent work on an outline - see Outline of Palestine and Outline of Buddhism for recent outline adopters).
  2. Outline of Knowledge Barnstar (more applicable to wikignomes, etc.).
  3. WikiProject OOK Barnstar (for behind the scenes administrative stuff, etc.)
If someone does a lot of recruiting for the wikiProject, an outline barnstar wouldn't really apply. Also, if they work on the OOK as a whole (on many outlines), the OOK barnstar would be most appropriate. The Transhumanist 21:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


Is it safe to assume that Buaidh deserves a World Development medal? (Take a look at his contribs. If so, I think it would have more impact if we all signed it. The Transhumanist 23:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes he does deserve it, if not him who else? Where should we all sign? Oh, and I could engrave his name onto the medallion, it'd take only a few seconds to do. -- penubag  (talk) 00:24, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, please engrave his name into one. That would be a very nice touch. The Transhumanist 22:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Done, see User:Penubag/Sandbox3 -- penubag  (talk) 08:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


Speaking of absorption, take a look at Outline of cell biology.

We've been having a problem with glossaries over the years. Every so often, there is a wave activism to move glossaries to wiktionary (which is essentially a graveyard for them), and the wave must be fought back. I'm usually involved in the rescue efforts by default because of my role in list development and administration.

But we may now have a solution...

The outline above suggests that at least some glossaries could be merged into outlines, or even be converted into new outlines (in cases where none exist for the subject yet).

The Transhumanist 23:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes! That's good. When I outline IRL I always include glossary terms and definitions and find them extremely helpful so I'm sure there will be no loss in including them. -- penubag  (talk) 00:32, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Now I'm blushing ...[edit]

Thank you so much. You can't imagine how much it means to me to have my work recognized by the community. I'm so happy I decided to come back. Thanks again. Tiamuttalk 00:14, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Outline Update - Basking in the light of knowledge - 07/28/2009[edit]

Phase two of outline integration (de-orphanizing outlines by adding links leading to them into article see also sections) is nearly complete. The better that outlines are integrated into the encyclopedia, the more use they will be to readers.

Due to greater exposure through outline integration, and with most of the OOK team on school summer vacation, development activity on outlines has increased a lot...

New members
Be sure to welcome our newest members to the team:
News: Outline of Palestine survives AfD
The outline was nominated for deletion for being too general in scope. The consensus was overwhelmingly for keeping it.
The most memorable comment was posted by Mandsford: I like the poetic name, anyway. [Outline of Palestine]. "Master Plan of Pakistan" and "Rough Sketch of Bangladesh" would be good too.
Special thanks to Tiamut for greatly improving the outline, and helping to save it from AfD.
To keep track of outline AfDs and other outline-related discussions, see WP:OOKDISC.
Who's active on Wikipedia this summer?
Courtesy of Rich Farmbrough, here's a list of editors by their edit counts over the previous month (8th June to 8th July).
It would be nice to get the most prolific Wikipedians involved with WP:WPOOK. If you can, find a good reason to contact one or more of them, and invite them to work on a relevant outline - or all 500!
Who's been up to what?
  • Buaidh, Highfields, and Gimme danger have been working on the government sections of the country outlines. Being that there are about 240 of these, with critical information being filled in on each, this is by far the hardest and most important chore of this WikiProject right now.
  • Penubag is working on a redesign of the top OOK page.
  • Tiamut has done an incredible job developing the Outline of Palestine.
  • And kudos also go to Eu.stefan for his work on Outline of Buddhism.

Thank you.

Here's what else has been going on...

New outlines
Recently created outlines include:
Recently converted to outlines
These outline articles, which were named "List of...", have been converted to an OOK format and added to the OOK:
Recently merged into outlines
There are a lot of "List of" articles that are outlines. Some of them are on the same subjects as the "Outline of" articles. The following articles have been recently merged into OOK pages:
Outlines that have been tagged
Tags are requests to fix a problem or improve an article in a particular way. Unless we want the tags to sit there for an extended period of time cluttering up the outlines (we don't), it is up to us to fulfill those requests or attend to underlying misassumptions (if any).
I can't stress enough the importance of watching
With so many outlines (now over 500), and a growing number of support pages (guidelines, wikiproject pages, etc.), I can no longer keep up. I need your help watching over it all.
If you'd like to omnisciently view everything "from above", see this page:
  • WP:OOKWL - watchlist for copying and pasting into your raw watchlist.
Or go to these pages (and click on "Related changes" in the sidebar's toolbox menu):
  • WP:OOKRC - a version of the above watchlist for use with "Related changes".
  • WP:OOKDIR - a list of key pages related to the OOK, along with their shortcuts.
  • WP:OOKDISC - list of discussions pertaining to outlines.
What's next?

There are a lot of contradictions in guidelines related to outlines. I'll be turning my attention to fixing those.

The number of "Outline of" articles is rapidly catching up to portals, and will probably pass them by the end of the summer!

Keep up the excellent work.

The Transhumanist 00:43, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

We'll be expecting an article or three on Japan when you return...[edit]

Have a great trip! The Transhumanist 19:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I just had an idea: be sure to take plenty of pictures![edit]

We might be able to use them in the encyclopedia.

The Transhumanist 19:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Sandbox 3[edit]

Can I take the whole sandbox? Or would you like to keep that, and place the medal for Buaidh on a new subpage?

Since we're all going to sign it, it should be on a page of its own, and then transferred to WikiProject space, and from there transcluded on to the WikiProject's Hall of Fame page (we don't have one yet) and Buaidh's talk page.

Also, could you make Buaidh's name bigger on the medal, below Africa?

The Transhumanist 20:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Bigger still? There's more room under Africa. The Transhumanist 20:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Under Africa is more centralized, and will catch the eye better - it will be much easier to notice, and won't feel like an afterthought - like it caught your eye and then you looked at it. The Transhumanist 20:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

reply about barnstar[edit]

I've replied to your Outline barnstar post at:

The Transhumanist 20:23, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Look what I found[edit]

I was looking for the medal with Jimbo on it, so I typed in WP:JIMBO and found something entirely unexpected.

The Transhumanist 20:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Replied at User talk:Penubag/Sandbox3[edit]

...and another. The Transhumanist 22:26, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Nintendo Wii motionplus.jpg[edit]

Ambox warning pn.svg

A tag has been placed on File:Nintendo Wii motionplus.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section I5 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an image which is not under a free license or in the public domain and it has not been used in any article for more than seven days.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. -KULSHRAXtalk 21:44, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


Here's a first go. Please see if you can make it look more impressive and award-like (fonts, borders, etc.).

By the way, I have to log off and be out of here in 48 minutes.

The Transhumanist 22:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

OOK collaboration: Outline of knowledge (eom)[edit]

Delivered by –Juliancolton | Talk at 21:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Full version of NICE to be released[edit]

Thanks for helping me and my colleagues test the NICE interface modification. Depending on when you installed the tool, you were only presented with a specific subset of the features we have developed. We are ready to roll out the full feature set which, we expect, will make the gadget significantly more useful. Before we do that, we'd like you to answer a few questions about your activity in Wikipedia as it relates to undoing other's edits and what you thought of the NICE features you were shown.

The survey will ask for your Wikipedia username, but you can participate anonymously if you choose. To do so, send me an email with an address I can respond to and I will have the survey software respond with an anonymous token for you to continue. --EpochFail (talk|contribs) 17:50, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


Wow, thank you. I hope you like the outline as much as I liked making it. Thanks again. Highfields (talk, contribs) 15:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Back from wikibreak[edit]

Hi Penubag,

I'm back from wikibreak, and now's a perfect opportunity for you to brag about yours.  :) I'm jealous. Where all did you visit?

Getting back to wikistuff, I'll be spending the next few days exploring uncharted areas of Wikipedia.

More soon...

The Transhumanist 15:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh hey Transhumanist!
I think I already posted a little on my vacation on your talkpage. Well, just to recap I spent a few weeks in Japan which was extremely fun. Towards the beginning of the vacation I went to a huge outdoor swimming pool in Inage but moments after, it started to down pour, which was when my camera and everything else broke. I managed to take a few pictures before that happened, which I will hopefully upload soon (I don't have access to anything that can read CF cards at the moment). But I didn't really take anything that would be too useful to Wikipedia and the pictures I did take, I see we have better alternatives here. Everything in Japan is so green and lush, whereas Southern California's as brown as dirt all around. I would just stare in awe at the beauty around including many large insects and miles of rice fields. In addition, the technology there is like 5 years ahead of ours. All the cell phones have TV capabilities and 10 megapixel cameras! I would get one except I can't read the language :( . I attended a few ceremonies like the obon and omatsuri which was a great experience as well. After I came back from Japan, we ended up not going camping because we ran out of time so instead went to San Diego and toured the area. It was very nice, the temperature was perfect for going out on the beach and view some of the wild life there. It was very relaxing. After I got home, I ordered a new camera among other things and that was the end of my vacation.
Right now, though, I'm overloaded with work from my classes and contributing is becoming more difficult, so I probably won't be able to help out for a while. When I get the chance, I will help out as much as I can. Working with you is such a pleasure. Well, until next time -- penubag  (talk) 22:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
It's interesting to read that Japan is ahead of us in technology. I wonder if that is covered on Wikipedia. I'd enjoy reading an article comparing the technology of the two countries.
I'm glad you enjoyed yourself, and yes, now I'm jealous as hell. :-)
The Transhumanist 02:03, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The "more"...[edit]

Please take a look at Outline of Dewey Decimal classes and Library of Congress Classification.

Being defacto outlines of knowledge, they list major subjects. (Side note: I've been linking the subjects to the corresponding outlines, making these alternate OOK top ends).

Do you see any subjects that you would especially like to see outlines for? If so, please let me know what they are.

The Transhumanist 15:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I think they are developing good and will continue to develop even on their own. As, for requesting, I can't request a particular outline I want at the moment but I would really like the smaller topics to be outlined because that's where Wikipedia's 3million+ articles will shine. Having an outline of something broad as Outline of Science is not as helpful as outlining the small topics like water or chocolate because that's where the individual topics blossom. If you look up the outlines for chocolate, then that's where you'll find the articles you never known we had. But, it's difficult to outline small topics without the core outlines first, which is why I have no particular suggestion right now. I definitely agree with you that outlines should be made much more visible to the end reader than they are now. When we have a more solid base and stronger support, how would you think a small link to an outline appear in the table of contents of the article being viewed? For example, in the World War II article in the table of contents, there will appear a link to the WWII outline. Adding such links will not only serve as a more in-depth guide to the reader as the ToC, but will also add to the contribution level of the outlines. -- penubag  (talk) 06:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
PS: Whohoo! Outline of robotics! I'll probably end up reading that!
I don't follow the "hard" part. It doesn't really matter if we skip a few levels down to the fun stuff - the intervening levels can be filled in later.
Your ideas of having outlines for chocolate and water make me yearn for:
Browsing around behind the scenes, it looks like the following areas could help in selecting new topics to outline:
Take a look, and let me know if anything peaks your interest.
The Transhumanist 18:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

File:Another medallion draft.png listed for deletion[edit]

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:Another medallion draft.png, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 06:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Outline Update - expanding the Outline of Knowledge - 2009-10-05[edit]

Time for some catching up...

Special award and thanks to Buaidh

Congratulations and kudos to Buaidh, the first recipient of the Wikipedia World Developer Award, and the first inductee into the Outline of Knowledge WikiProject's Hall of Fame.

The award was announced about 2 months agos on the WikiProject's talk page, and on Wikipedia's Community Bulletin Board.

Buaidh created the historical outlines for all of the U.S. States, the U.S. capital, and most of the U.S. insular areas. He has also worked indefatigably day after day, improving all of the outlines of the U.S. States, and the outlines of all of the countries of the world!

Who's been up to what?
  • Buaidh, working hard on the country outlines.
  • Highfields, MacMed, and I worked on the see also sections of the subject articles corresponding to the outlines (adding or updating the links to the relevant outlines and indexes).

Discussions can sure be frustrating - try getting a proposal through on a guideline's talk page sometime. Most of the time, it seems like the opposition is mindlessly following each other, like...

Zombies. (You've got to see this).

Outline of Knowledge

Yes, it's a proper noun. It's only proper, since we also have an article called Outline of knowledge which is about knowledge generically.

OOK expansion!

After a couple month vacation, I'm ready to slam the gas pedal to the floor. Are you?

Things are speeding up!

Take a look...

New to the OOK

The following outlines have been added to the OOK within the past couple of months or so. Some of them were renames, some of them brand new, and some of them recently discovered after sitting in article space for awhile as orphans.

Here's some more pages that have been renamed to outlines even more recently, but that need to be converted to OOK format:

Lists to merge into outlines

The following pairs of pages are content forks and need to be merged:

Not sure what to rename these to
Rough outlines, renamed/moved to draft space
Lists that can be structured into decent outlines

Only a few hundred more to go.  :)

The Transhumanist 04:46, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Have you checked graphics recently?[edit]

I think there's something you've missed.  :) The Transhumanist 18:02, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Are you talking about this? If so, I replied here. If you're talking about this User:Penubag/graphics#WP:OOK_barnstars or the ook page redesign, I still have to kick myself into doing that :) -- penubag  (talk) 02:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

This looks like it will be cool[edit]

Avatar (2009 film)

The Transhumanist 23:09, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I've never heard of that. I think I might have to go see it. -- penubag  (talk) 02:44, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Outline of chocolate[edit]

Reinstate the valid tags immediately. Editwarring to remove valid tags is pathetic. There is no central place to discuss these pages with the community, so they are being handled on a case by case basis. An alternative is List of chocolate topics. Verbal chat 09:06, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Just a note that I refactored the above as "pathetic" is probably too harsh, my updated edit can be found in the history but was reverted by Penubag. Verbal chat 10:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Who is it that you are leaving the note to? -- penubag  (talk) 10:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
To anyone who views this page. I apologise for my intemperate language. Verbal chat 10:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
And the situation is noted. Penubag, do not tamper with other people's comments! That's a big no-no. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:36, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
It didn't seem like he was making it more polite for me, just spectators which conceals the truth of his original message. -- penubag  (talk) 05:38, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
I understand what you're saying, and if you want to start or maintain a war, then do what you did. You weren't AGF by doing that. If you were to do something that isn't forbidden, but which would be a slap in the face anyway, you could have added a comment with a link to the diff. That would perpetuate bad feelings instead of taking the high road and letting it slide. It's your talk page, so you have alot of leeway, but tampering with the wording of other's posts isn't allowed, especially if it makes a possible apology or softening into what you think was an attack, but which may have been an ill-advised screwup. We are all imperfect and should have the right to retract our ill-advised words. I suggest the two of you try to get along better. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
May I remind you that he left the comment untouched for a couple days and only touched it when I opened a report on AN/I about his actions. AGF is not letting people punch you and accepting the fact. Even after his comments I have tried to be civil with him [5] and even told him that I reverted his edits. You should look the other way as he edited my comments on his talkpage as well. -- penubag  (talk) 05:53, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
When did I edit your comments? I changed a hidden comment to make it visible, as hidden comments aren't very useful. Feel free to strike it if you like. Verbal chat 08:06, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Move warring[edit]

Please stop moving articles from "list of" to "outline of" without consensus, even after you have been made aware that these articles were originally lists. I have already stated that until there has been discussion I will not do the opposite, and only did it with 2 articles I think. The multiple contentious article moves should be reverted until discussion takes place, as they are controversial and not discussed. Thank you, Verbal chat 11:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. The status quo should be reestablished and consensus should be sought in each instance. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
I just noticed your move of List of basic algebra topics back to "outline of", despite there being no consensus for the move to outline (as I had told you). In addition, there is actually a consensus against outlines at the mathematics wikiproject, which would apply to this and all other mathematics articles unless superseded by a bigger consensus. Please stop the useless and unproductive reverting to "outline" for articles that have been contested and started as lists. Verbal chat 16:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I will not move any more pages in this manner. I agree that the status quo needs to be reestablished and hope all parties agree -- penubag  (talk) 21:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I hope our understanding of the quo agrees. Verbal chat 22:04, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm presuming the link above wasn't meant to link to the band. I'm tempted to redirect it to the latin word. -- penubag  (talk) 00:08, 18 October 2009 (UTC)


Hi Penubag! Thanks a lot for removing the text from the Kanzan stamp. If it is not too much work, could you upload a new image (over File:Portrait of Kanzan-no text-.jpg) like your edit, but with the red marks at the bottom right left intact. These are part of the painting and were not added during the design of the postage stamp.bamse (talk) 09:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the red stamps.bamse (talk) 09:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Matsumoto Castle[edit]

Just noticed that you also focused Matsumoto castle. You focused the correct structures (I like the way of foscusing, btw), but I'd need two pictures: (i) highlight only the left two-storied tower (=the central of the three towers in the original photograph), (ii) highlight only the right single-storied tower (=the one with the red handrail). I am sorry for not being very precise in the request at the graphics lab. bamse (talk) 10:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Another focusing request[edit]

Since you did a great job with File:Matsumoto-Castle-center.jpg and File:Matsumoto-Castle-far right.jpg, can you do the same with File:Enjoji Nara06s4592.jpg, i.e. focus the right (=Hakusandō (白山堂)) and left (=Kasugadō (春日堂)) structure in two separate pictures? I'd need it for List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines). bamse (talk) 11:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

And one more similar wish: Make two focused pictures, one with each tower in File:Himeji castle-InuiShotenshu+NishiShotenshu.jpg. The left tower is "Northwest Small Tower (乾小天守, inui shōtenshu)", the right tower is "West Small Tower (西小天守, nishi shōtenshu)", both at Himeji Castle. (Ignore the tower at the far right background which is further from photographer.) Thanks. bamse (talk) 11:50, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'm a bit busy these next few days but I will surely get to it asap. Thanks for your patients! -- penubag  (talk) 02:03, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

No need to rush. Take your time. bamse (talk) 11:21, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

May I add another focusing request? Please make three pictures out of File:NikkoKaramonHaidenHonden.jpg for List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines). In the first focus only the fence (Tōzai Sukibei (東西透塀)). In the second focus only the gate (Karamon). In the third focus the building behind the fence and gate (Haiden, not much more than the roof visible). Thanks. PS: I marked the parts to be focused via image annotations. bamse (talk) 21:20, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you may add as many focusing requests as you need, anytime. I will probably work on those this weekend. -- penubag  (talk) 23:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for the recent focused pictures and the offer to do more. How about File:Marodo Shrine Itsukushima.jpg, can you focus honden and haiden together in one picture. Their roofs are marked by image annotations, but I'd like to have the full structure including the lower (white) parts marked. bamse (talk) 16:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Two more requests: 1. in File:Nijo Castle.jpg focus the small building in the center ("Reception room" marked with image annotations), 2. in File:Nijo Castle J09 40.jpg focus the "Retainers' room" (marked with image annotations. rightmost of the three buildings (the building in which there is the "Retainers' room", but focus the whole building) Thanks. bamse (talk) 19:28, 15 November 2009 (UTC) Hi, it's me again ;-) Maybe we should open a dedicated focusing-request-page or you teach me how to focus the pictures myself. This time, I'd like two pictures out of File:Matsumoto Castle 04.jpg. Pic 1: Focus the leftmost (3 storey) tower (Northwest Small Tower), pic 2: Focus the intermediate, connecting (2-storey) structure (Connecting Tower). As usual the structures are marked by annotations and take your time. None of these requests is really urgent. bamse (talk) 23:02, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Invitation to participate in SecurePoll feedback and workshop[edit]

As you participated in the recent Audit Subcommittee election, or in one of two requests for comment that relate to the use of SecurePoll for elections on this project, you are invited to participate in the SecurePoll feedback and workshop. Your comments, suggestions and observations are welcome.

For the Arbitration Committee,
Risker (talk) 08:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[edit] really a commerce site to buy/sell/trade animals and supplies. Even the article in question about henckels has banner ads, etc all over it. I did not see any information in the kingsnake article not already included in the wiki article, nor in the other two links. I don't want to get into a pissing match over this, if you want to revert me a third time, go for it...I just think it's not advancing the reader's knowledge of the subject by much.. Thanks for helping with the other dead link.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 01:43, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not much for websources to be honest, they'll do in a pinch I suppose. Personally I think that the Wiki article could use more improvement as opposed to just a small collection of links. I have never been impressed with more than a handful of articles produced there. I've found a few in the past to contain errors as well.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 04:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I need your opinion[edit]

Hey Penubag, I'm new to Wikipedia. I have a quick question about Verifiability: I know self-published sources cannot be used as a reliable reference, but I found a website; a indymedia (this Wikipedia article is pretty messy) site here based in Los Angeles with a ton of content. I can't figure out if it's a self-published type situation, or not. Though, It does allow users to post their own content (this might be the killer). I do not know if it can be used as a reliable source. What do you think? Much thanks. NoFlyingCars (talk) 09:15, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. It seems okay to me. But it is largely dependent on what exactly you want to use from the site. Any good article cites multiple sources and if indymedia is one of them, that's just fine. However, it might be problematic if it were the only source but I don't see any problem with referencing it. If you want a better answer then what I gave you, you can ask the fine folks at the policy pump. -- penubag  (talk) 10:12, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar.png The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
Given with respect and admiration to Penubag for converting and uploading File:Ricketts Glen - Ice Waterfall on Flickr - Photo Sharing.ogv despite a broken laptop. If I can be of assistance to you, please let me know, thanks! Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:46, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your appreciation! I'm happy to have helped! -- penubag  (talk) 03:29, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

WikiThanks.png Thanks for cleaning up the picture of the waterfall under the bridge! Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:58, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

If you get a chance, would you be able to clean up File:Piper Aviation Museum.jpg any? If not, I can crop it and try adjuting the levels. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:58, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Artsy Christmas Tree.jpg <font=3> Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and all the best in 2010! Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC) Candy Cane Lane 4.jpg

Is your laptop still broken?[edit]

The Transhumanist 02:01, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but I expect it to be fixed by thursday, although I will continue to be extremely busy for the next week. The terminals here are really nice though and have Photoshop etc so I have most all the tools I need, just not a lot of time to use them. -- penubag  (talk) 10:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[edit]

Hey, hope you're well. Just an FYI...I was using a source from in an article that is now at FAC: Cyclura nubila, the page in question was a page put together by a Catholic Priest with a degree in biology about animals in the Caribbean. Obviously not a simplistic page written by a teenage pet owner. One lone reviewer dinged it as not being a "High Quality Source" even though I was only using it to support a Greek language translation. Something to think about.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:35, 20 December 2009 (UTC)