- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]
- Nominator(s): There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 02:49, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I have had a thorough peer review by Brianboulton, who has successfully contributed to more than 70 featured articles. I have implemented 99% of his recommendations in revamping the article so that it is leaner and meaner. I've put in more hours that I can remember on the article and am making my second try at FA status. Thank you for any and all constructive and polite help! I sincerely appreciate it. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 02:49, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Drive-by comment by Chris857
- First sentence -- we have "...Ontario, Canada (2011 population...", but there is no closing parenthesis. Chris857 (talk) 03:32, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed this. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 17:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Mattximus
There is a lack of Canadian cities at FA status, but I believe there is quite a bit of work needed:
Lead
- "Sarnia is a city in Southern (Southwestern) Ontario, Canada" - I would say choose either southern, or southwestern. Having both is a little redundant.
- Fixed this. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- There must be a better way of saying " It is located where the...", perhaps a more technical geographic term (at the junction?)
- Fixed this. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- 45-tonne barque "Le Griffon" is mentioned in the lead but not in the history section. Lead should summarize history, maybe this part is needed *only* in the history section?
- Added a mention of La Salle and the Griffon to the history section.
- I'm not sure if you need "when he had horses and men pull his 45-tonne barque "Le Griffon" up the almost four-knot current" in the lead. Lead is a summary of the text. It's not really about Sarnia itself, but I suppose fits as trivia in the history section.
- Same for "of the St. Clair River on 24 August 1679." But this statment needs a source
- Added the reference and corrected the date to 23 August 1679. Hey, that's 334 years ago today! There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "The Ontario Heritage Trust considers the voyage worthy of note, as shown by the photo of the sign." Not an encyclopedic sentence.
- Fixed this by rewording. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure if this is fixed. "As shown by the photo of the sign" is not convention in wikipedia.
- Grammar: "Because of this economic dependence on the petrochemical industry, Sarnia has the highest level of particulates air pollution". No, it's not the dependence that causes pollution, it's the industry.
- Fixed this. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You are fixing a specific criticism without looking at the bigger picture. The writing needs work and unfortunately I do not have time to go over every sentence (although I do want to see this article at FA level!). For example "Because of the petrochemical industry, and Sarnia's resulting economic dependence on it, the city has the highest level of particulates air pollution of any Canadian city." This is a passive sentence, consider starting with "The city has the highest level of particulates... because...". I'll see if I have time to catch more later.
- It's not passive, but I changed the structure to remove the dependent clause. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Prose: "In the winter, Sarnia does experience" - >Sarnia experiences
- Fixed this. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- References: Culturally, Sarnia is a large part of the artistic presence in Southern Ontario. Where in the reference is this stated?
- Pages 7-12. Fixed this. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I really don't think a list of bands that once played in the city has any place in the article, let alone the lead.
- Sorry, I have to stand firm on this one. Sarnia Bayfest is the one of the biggest music festivals in Southern Ontario, and the fact that such big names have played here is important to the artistic presence mentioned above. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- But Sarnia was simply the venue of these bands, it did not generate an "artistic presence". For example, you wrote (in the lead mind you) that a country band called Rascal Flats, from Ohio, once went to Sarnia to play an hour long concert. How does this make Sarnia an artistic presence? Did this band not play 100 other cities that year? This may sound sarcastic, but I mean it sincerely.
- I have moved the list of performers out of the lead and put it into the Culture section. One question, however ... if the bands had played at the Hollywood Bowl instead of Sarnia Bayfest, would that not have been significant in the history of that venue? There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Hollywood Bowl perhaps, but not in the Los Angeles article.
- I'm not sure how important it is to say that in 2013 the music festival was cancelled due to lack of funds in the lead.
- It's very important because Sarnia Bayfest did not happen this year, thus affecting the economy of the area. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I've read the sources, and they the cancellation is due to years of low attendance and that the festival in its current form is essentially done. Could not find any firm plans for return in 2014 as stated in the text. In light of the cancellation I'm sticking with my recommendation to remove, especially from the lead.
- There are no firm plans for permanent cancellation either. If and when such plans surface, or plans to continue, then I'll modify the article appropriately. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Why does the "organizers canceled the event because of money troubles" have 5 references?
- I put all the references regarding Bayfest at the end of the paragraph. It's not just the cancellation.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- This should be made more clear.
- Shouldn't matter since the sentence should be deleted, but in Canadian English is it not preferred to write cancelled instead of canceled?
- Fixed the spelling. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- General impressions: The lead seems imbalanced comapred to the focus of the rest of the article, with perhaps too much history and not enough summary of the rest of the article.
- I included history, arts, weather, Chemical Valley, and the discovery of oil. To me, that seems well-balanced. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "graced the stage" is not encyclopedic.
- "The largest event that happens in Sarnia is Sarnia Bayfest, which is a popular music festival that takes place during the summer." tense issue, should be past tense (happened, took place).
Name
- The name section is not a very clear read and probably too long. For example:
- "The Channel Islands lie between Southern England and Northern France, as indicated by Selden.". You've already mentioned the Channel Islands, what purpose does this sentence serve? Why is it important that Selden knows where the Chanel Islands are, isn't it assumed?
- Fixed this by combining the two sentences. Also, the name section is not too long. I've already shortened it by 40%. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Berry elucidated the difference by stating "... and thus applying Sarnia to Guernsey ..."" Elucidate means to make clear, how is that short quotation making the difference clear?
- It's clear because he also states that Guernsey is Sarnia, spelled with an "n" instead of Sarmia, "spelled with an "m," which is an older name of the nearby island Sark. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Prose definitely needs a good copyedit. For example, first sentence: "The name "Sarnia" is Latin for Guernsey, which is Channel Island", do you mean "which is a Channel Island?".
- Yes, that is what I mean. Fixed this. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Citation needed in infobox for settlement date, incorporation date, etc...
- That would mean a double citation, one for where those things are mentioned in the text, and one for the infobox. Is that not over-citing? There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 19:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair enough this is fine, I had to go searching a bit but I found the reference.
- Going through the lead again, it looks much better now, but still the prose is far from polished. For example "Sarnia rests on the eastern bank of the junction between the Upper and Lower Great Lakes where Lake Huron flows into the St. Clair River and is across the Canada-United States border east of Port Huron, Michigan." This sentence needs rewording to make it more clear. As it stands, it doesn't follow logically, but I know what you are trying to say. Maybe something like "Sarnia is located on the eastern bank of the junction between the Upper and Lower Great Lakes where Lake Huron flows into the St. Clair River, which forms the Canada-United States border, directly across from Port Huron, Michigan". Is that more clear?
- Made the change. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure if the two-week limit for FAC is enough to fix the writing. I've only scratched the surface of this article so far and found many issues. What do you think?
- Well, I'm going to give it my best shot! There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Sounds good, will continue to review when time permits!
- Why is Port Sarnia italicised?
- Dunno. Removed the italics. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You state there was a vote to rename the village, but who voted? Does this number matter? Does it even matter what a few settlers wanted the village to be called?
- The citizens voted. The material comes from the quote itself, which I am loath to change. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "adopted the title "The Imperial City" on 7 May 1914". This needs clarification. What is meant by title? Did they rename the town? If so when was it renamed Sarnia?
- The clarification is there in the sentence. Connaught visited the city. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- When did it go from Port Sarnia, to Sarnia?
- 1857, which is also stated in the article. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Is it notable to list the number of log houses, brick houses, frame houses in the section on the name of the city? Population would suffice I would think.
- It is notable because it is part of the quote; therefore, I am, as stated before, loath to change it. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- What does this mean? "Colborne also named "Moore" " Is Moore another village nearby? There is no link, or any mention of this before. Very confusing.
- Yes, Moore is a nearby village, and it is sourced in the reference. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Demographics
- OK, so the demographics section is out of date and needs to be updated. Stats Can released the national household survey which should update much of the statistics relating to language, religion, etc. for Sarnia. It can be found here: [[2]]. Just text is fine but maybe consider a demographics table like the one found in Hamilton, Ontario?
- Redid the demographics section with the most recent available data. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 17:56, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks much better now!
- Prose issues in the demographics section include:
- "28.38% professed no religious preference or were atheists." Aren't atheists individuals who profess no religious preference? Why the "or"?
- It's "or" because atheists don't believe in any religion. "No religious preference" means they're religious, but don't really care which religion. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, then the "or" makes sense. Are you sure "no religious preference" means religious but don't care which?
- I'm not sure what "median cost of a home in Sarnia" is doing in the demographics section
- Removed. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- (nitpicking) need a space between of and Jewish
- Actually, it was "or" and "Jewish," and I added the space. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:37, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- A median income that differs by 20% is considered "roughly the same"?
- Fixed this. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- " In 2011, 89.31% of Sarnians counted English as their mother tongue, 2.46% listed French, 0.87% counted both of those languages, and 7.37% counted another language as their mother tongue" I count "counted" 3 times in that one sentence. Maybe synonyms would make it less jarring?
- I quoted the text used on the original 2006 Census, which used all the "counteds." Changed them this time around. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Geography:
- This sentence needs rewording: "Despite this high percentage of clay, the soil is remarkably rich for growing and planting because prior to the Ice Age, when glaciers covered most of the area as can be seen not only by the existence of the Great Lakes themselves but also of alluvial sand deposits, terminal moraines, and rich oil reserves, the entire area was submerged and plant and animal matter formed many layers of sediment as they settled after the waters receded."
- Suggest breaking it up into smaller sentences, or remove the passive nature. Also: what is the distinction between growing and planting? Don't you mean the soil is "good for cultivation"?
- Fixed this. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:13, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- This sentence seems out of place for the geography section: "The village of Blue Water was built to house workers and their families in Chemical Valley during the construction of Polymer Corporation and at one point had nearly 3,000 residents, many of them French-Canadian.[citation needed] In 1961, all the residents were relocated, mostly to the North End, to make way for expansion of the chemical industry. The village was demolished, and all that remains now is an historical marker at the corner of Vidal Street and Huron Avenue. This neighbourhood was largely forgotten until historian Lorraine Williams penned two books about it and was instrumental in the dedication of the plaque.[65] [66]"
- Since it no longer exists, should it belong in the history section?
- Absolutely. It is an integral part of the development of both Sarnia and Chemical Valley. I removed the part about French-Canadian because it's not in the source. The Mayor's Honor List Source has all the information about Blue Water, so there is no need to list the same source twice. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:13, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- No, the participial version is weaker than the direct version. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:13, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "A Windsor Star article printed 15 December 2010" -> "A 2010 Windsor Star article" (actually I'm not sure about the relevance of this source to a geographic phenomenon) is this even needed? Could you just cite this article as justification for Sarnia being in the snow-belt?
- Added as reference. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:13, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Otherwise, as also shown by the National Climate Data and Information Archive, Sarnia has very little regular snowfall;" This needs reworking. Possibly include the national climate data as a citation for the statement "Sarnia has very little regular snowfall"? No need to include it in the text itself.
- Removed. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 21:13, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Section is pretty good, please consider my changes above. I'm not yet done with the last paragraph though!
Government
- Is it possible to include a little on the history of the elected political parties. Is it a traditionally held Tory riding? Or has it wavered in the recent past? Maybe just a sentence or two on this I think would add a bit of encyclopaedic balance instead of just the current mp and mpp.
- Added historical election results. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Attractions
- There is quite a bit of trivia that is not really appropriate for a city page IMO. For example, it's not notable that the name of one of the 100 parks "was chosen by Mrs. W. J. Hanna, who in 1932 helped to purchase the land." All three paragraphs on parks could probably be neatly summarized in 1 paragraph
- Frankly, I don't know why details of history of the parks is considered "trivia," yet a history of which political party was in power over the years is considered necessary. In any event, I removed the sentence, even though it's directly stated in the reference. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I consider the readers of this page when gauging notability. What is more likely: 1. A user wondering during an election time, if Sarnia is a traditional Tory stronghold or 2. A user wondering the name of the lady that sold the land to the city in 1933 creating one of the 100 parks. I think most would say the first is important, and the second is on the trivial side. Do you agree?
- No, I don't agree. But in the interests of compromise, as stated, I removed the extra sentence about Canatara Park. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 02:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Added electoral history. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Why does "Outdoor Fitness Equipment" have capitals? Also I checked the ref, and those three words are not mentioned.
- Removed the capitals. In the reference, the following paragraph appears:
As a result of this recommendation, staff worked with a local company Active Playground
Equipment (APE) to utilize City parks with installations of active play equipment. APE has
agreed to test prototypes of their active equipment in Canatara Park for two years to gather
feedback and measure performance of their equipment in a municipal park setting. There is no
cost for the City for this equipment and the City has been indemnified for insurance purposes by
the installer of the equipment.
Because "Active Equipment" is a company name, I did not include it in the article because it could have been seen as advertising. Also, because the fitness equipment is in a park, it is self-evident that it's "outdoor equipment." There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- This is a very long quotation that has nothing to do with Sarnia, and I do not know why it is there: "There is one single, unifying element that defines our Canadian culture in absolute terms, a skein that runs through the warp and weft of the Canadian psyche. It's not our language, not our universal social programs. ... It's not even the animosity we hold each other in — the bipolarization of English versus French, east versus west, everyone versus Ontario. No, — it's the chip wagon. Yes, the glue of our national identity is the grease of the french fry."
- "Fries Under the Bridge" are part of Sarnia's city identity. The quote is there to support that association. Between 50 and 100 thousand people visit the fry trucks every year. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- But that article is not about that particular store. It's about how French Fries and chip stands form part of the Canadian identity. Nothing to do with Sarnia specifically.
- "Fries Under the Bridge" is not a specific store. There are generally five fry establishments under the Bridge at any one time. One of them is a brick-and-mortar location, and the other four are chip trucks. The trucks and the regular location have been part of Sarnia's cultural identity for 57 years. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 00:41, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, that quotation is not about the five fry establishments under the Bridge. It's about how French Fries and chip stands form part of the Canadian identity. I'm not sure why this specific (random?) quotation was chosen. Is there no references to the importance to the chip trucks in Sarnia specifically? If not, I would venture to say they are not notable.
- Added back two other citations that another reviewer suggested I remove during the peer review stage. On reflection, they are important, so I added them back to the article. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 02:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- This chip section is really strange. You mention how a food writer was "blown away" by the Sarnia waterfront. "Blown away" is not encyclopaedic, and I'm not sure why the waterfront is mentioned in a paragraph on chip trucks (or the importance of a food blogger in determining the quality of a waterfront). Are there more sources on the fries actually being notable? For example I could find a food blogger that likes fries anywhere. Some reference that states the Sarnia fries are special in some way would be perfect. Then there is a long quotation which does not have to do with Sarnia, just chip trucks in general, which I believe is rather out of place.
- "Blown away" are words used in the article. It may not be encyclopedic, but a quote is a quote and must be maintained. Ms. Ogryzlo also mentioned in the source that she felt the reputation of the fries as "the best" had merit. So, there is a source already there about the quality of the fries. Also, if I remove the Chadwick quote, you don't then get to say in the future "what is the relevance of chip trucks? Why is this included? They're not notable." There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 04:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sports
- Paragraphs shouldn't have just one sentence. Suggest merging?
- The one sentence paragraphs were constructed that way by other reviewers during the peer review process. I am loath to change them because the reviewers have successfully contributed to more than 708 featured articles. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 02:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Education
- "all classes are conducted in French". This can't be true. French immersion means that there are some classes in French and some in English (I've attended one). At the very least, english classes won't be taught in French. Suggest cutting this part of the sentence.
- Cut the sentence entirely. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The very last sentence of this section seems like an add-on. I wonder if it can be incorporated into the first sentence of that paragraph? (This is not critical)
- The sentence regards college education and would be out of place in a paragraph about elementary and high school education. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Was suggesting that the last sentence of the last paragraph be merged with the first sentence of the last paragraph, as it feels like an add-on where it is now. But this is not a critical suggestion anyway.
- I believe it is written "enrolment" in Canada, not "enrollment".
- Fixed this. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Conclusion (thus far into the FAC)
- I'm sorry, there are simply too many prose issues in this article at the moment. I've been trying to catch them but I'm maybe 10% through the article, and even then it could use more than a cursory glance. Also I've not had a chance to review the "bigger picture". I don't think this will pass in the 2 week limit. Suggest a thorough copy-edit.
- Mattximus, after implementing all your suggested changes, I've run the whole article through readability.com. It's at grade level 11-12. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I do think the article is looking better, and thanks for considering my changes, but as you can see there were a lot, and that was only a section or two. I alone cannot go over the whole article in two weeks. It really needs other eyes. I'll keep trying to improve prose as much as I can in the mean time.
Oppose as is (unless prose is considerably improved)
Mattximus (talk) 19:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: A lot of work was done on this article at the peer review stage, and there has been some further improvement since. However, the judgement that the prose needs further work before the article can pass FAC is a fair one. I will do what I can over the next week or so to help knock the prose into shape, and request that the delegates allow this time before considering closure. Brianboulton (talk) 13:47, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Later: I have copyedited the sections following "Demographics", the best I can do. I have not tried to rewrite the article, though I have made a few rearrangements of the content that seemed necessary, and I have "lost" the bus picture, which wasn't particularly interesting and tended to overcrowd that part. It's now up to other editors to decide if the prose has been polished up to FAC standards. I don't believe I can do more. Brianboulton (talk) 21:17, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the extra help, Brianboulton! I think we've done everything we can do. Let's just see what happens! There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 22:11, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The prose in the demographics section is now much better, and up to date. I only have one last comment for this section: why are United Church and Anglican combined in the statistics? Aren't they fairly distinct religions? Mattximus (talk) 15:00, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- In the source, they were the two largest groups, so it made sense to combine them. The other groups were too small to list separately.There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:31, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You mean besides Roman Catholicism? Still very strange to combine two arbitrarily like that, would suggest giving each their individual percentage. That shouldn't clutter the sentence up too much and be much more informative. Mattximus (talk) 20:28, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed it. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 23:08, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note to Editors: I am going to be translating this article into German for wikipedia.de shortly. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 00:07, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
- Captions need some editing for clarity, tone, and style
- File:Sarnia_From_Space.jpg: there is no way this meets the "unique historic image" rationale. You might consider contacting Hadfield about releasing his photos for use, or check to see whether any of the NASA-published photos feature Sarnia. Similarly, File:Sarnia_at_Night_from_Space.jpg - try contacting him. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:44, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Nikkimaria, when I posted the first photo by Chris Hadfield (the daylight shot), there was a big discussion about it. The caption that I put on the photo was the result of that discussion. Check the talk page of the photo, and you'll see. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 13:00, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "unique historic image" requires a stronger rationale than other fair-use tags, and this particular image was first published by the press (according to the image description). I suggest that a broader discussion about the image's inclusion is needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair enough, Nikkimaria. Is there a way to change the tag to something else? Or, should I delete the photo and upload it again under a different tag? There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:28, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I figured out how to do it and changed the type from historic image to newspaper image. The fair-use rationale remains the same. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 16:40, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment ("name" section)
- Most of the first paragraph is out of scope for Sarnia, the city (and would better fit into the Guernsey-article). The relevant etymology for the city name is only: "It was derived from an island with the same name". Guernsey is linked, all additional info about Guernsey and the island's etymology is available there - it's not necessary (and confusing for the average reader) to duplicate that info here and follow an inherited name completely back to its original roots (especially when that info is apparently disputed among different sources). The entire first paragraph should be replaced with "Sarnia is the traditional name of Guernsey, a British Channel Island." and merged with the second paragraph, continuing with the governor and details about his name choice. GermanJoe (talk) 14:49, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Implemented. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 15:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Bump
Commenting here because there has been no traffic for almost a week and I don't want this archived with no decision. There can be only one...TheKurgan (talk) 05:45, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC) [3].[reply]
- Nominator(s): Decodet (talk) 18:16, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because, after four years since the last nomination, a lot of hard working has been done in this article. I feel it finally meets the FA criteria and therefore deserves the promotion. It is well-written, with relevant information only and everything is properly referenced. I assume it is ready. If you don't support, please let me know what your issues are so I can work on them. Decodet (talk) 18:16, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments from Ceranthor
- General
- The lead is a bit long for such a short article.
- I may reduce it a little bit but I am not sure about what can I remove, for me there's only relevant information in there. Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Suggestions
- "certified gold by..." and "for sales exceeding half a million copies" basically mean the same thing. Get rid of one or the other, probably the first. Having both makes sense in the body text.
- done. Decodet (talk) 01:01, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "the 2006 soundtrack became the top-selling album in the United States that year" - can probably be left out of the lead, which already mentions the soundtrack albums; Tisdale was not a main singer on most of the singles from this album.
- done. Decodet (talk) 01:01, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- " the captain of a cheerleader team" - this much detail probably not needed in the lead of a short article (the character name is useful because people look at the lead wondering why they've heard of her).
- done. Decodet (talk) 01:01, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It might need more drastic cuts or restructuring, not sure. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, I'm working on it! Decodet (talk) 01:01, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks much better! One extra thought - is "He Said She Said" the single of hers that has sold best overall? If so, it might be easier to just say that in the lead (or just as "her most successful single"), and relegate the details to the article body, because "her best charting solo single in the U.S." is not only longer, but, more importantly, seems to be trying to put across a lengthy series of qualifiers in order to make the statement true, which makes it very difficult to read to my somewhat worldwide-music-industry-ignorant brain. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:51, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It actually is! Thanks for the note, I'll rewrite that sentence. Decodet (talk) 21:11, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Another thought - what does the original source say, that the lead currently paraphrases as "among kids and tweens"? Tweens is a tolerably precise definition, but "kids" in such a context could variously mean only people younger than tweens, only people older than tweens, or all people between age 8-or-so and (potentially) age 25-or-so who don't fit into the "tweens" category. Either way, something is either wrong or confusing here. I can't seem to access the source. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The source actually uses those terms "kids and tweens". I'm confident they meant younger than tweens though. Perhaps we can remove the "kids" and keep only the "tweens"? Decodet (talk) 00:48, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Lead
- The series was also nominated for eight Primetime Emmy Awards, having won two of them.[2] - winning, not having won
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- the intense captain of a cheerleader team. - What does "intense" mean here?
- done. Removed that word to avoid confusion. Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The series, however, had only one full season as it was cancelled by The CW in 2011 because of low ratings. - ran for only one season. Also, does ratings indicate viewers or critical reception?
- done. It was about the viewers. Fixed it. Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- she starred as Jody Sanders in Scary Movie 5, the fourth sequel to the 2000 film. - Why is this last part "the fourth..." necessary?
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Early life
- to Lisa (née Morris) and Mike Tisdale, the manager of a construction company. - Do you know her mother's career?
- Actually no. I've tried to find out what her career is but I couldn't find anything. Apparently she's a homestay. Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The first paragraph is very choppy. Some sentences should be connected together.
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- He sent her to numerous auditions for commercials, resulting in her placement in more than 100 national network TV ads as a kid. - As a kid is informal.
- done. Replaced it with "child". Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Tisdale toured for two years on Les Misérables[15] before landing a role in an international touring production of Annie[13] in Korea. - First of all, what role did she land? And if it was international, how was it in Korea? Based in Korea?
- done. Removed the word "international". Nobody knows what role she portrayed in that production. Every single reliable source that I find about that says "a role". Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- During this time, she simultaneously worked as a Ford Model. - Is this a common term (Ford Model)? I've never heard of it.
- done. Replaced with "as a model for Ford Model" to avoid confusion. Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- For her role in Boston Public, she received a 2000 Young Artist Award nomination for "Best Guest Performance In a TV drama".[17] - What did she play?
- done. Added the role she played. Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll stop here. I have to oppose because I am sorry to say I fear the article is 1. not fully comprehensive, omitting important details such as her specific roles and 2. more importantly the prose needs a lot of work. I'll be glad to post comments here as the FAC progresses, but I think a lot of time has elapsed without review so it is unlikely we will finish in time. However, I have high hopes for this article's improvement! :) ceranthor 22:30, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for reviewing, I've fixed everything you've said and I'd be happy if you please continue your review! :) Decodet (talk) 16:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- 04-06
- teenage candy-counter girl - What does this mean?
- It means that the character is a candy seller. Is this sentence confusing? Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- She later won her first award at the UK Nickelodeon Kids' Choice Awards for "Best TV Actress", due to her performance as Fitzpatrick.[18][10] - Due to is awkward, and later is redundat. That bit at the end should be switched to the front. It should read... "For her performance... , she won ..." Also, when did she win this award?
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The soundtrack, in which Tisdale lent her vocals for several songs, - to which; which songs?
- done. She sings in at least half of the album, isn't it redundant to list the songs she sings in? Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Due to the popularity earned by Tisdale through her performance in High School Musical, - Not a well-written sentence, awkward and forced
- done. I tried to rewrite it, is it better? Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- 2007–09
- Solo music career and continued success
- in a selective number of countries that did not include North America. - what does this even mean? Can you just list the countries then say but not North America?
- done. I removed this sentence, I thought it was redundant to list two singles that were released in Germany and Austria only. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- with a three-song trilogy comprising music videos and a documentary about the creation of Headstrong. - comprising music videos?
Do you mean comprised of?
- done. Yes, that's what it was meant. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- She lent vocals for several tracks in the film's soundtrack[12] - On, not in
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- viewers on its premiere night.[30] - during its premiere, not premiere night.
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Also in 2007, Tisdale was given the voice role of Candace Flynn, the series' secondary antagonist, in Phineas and Ferb, which became television's most-watched animated series among kids and tweens,[6] - Surely there must be more information on how she got the part. I cannot believe this is comprehensive.
- I've tried before looking for more details about Tisdale's casting in that particular role. However, I will try to do that again later and see if there is anything I could add to that. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Tisdale's debut as an executive producer and also in a leading role, - and as an actress in a leading role
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- in which she played Mandy Gilbert, - ; she played ... - Get rid of the in which
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- captured 4.3 million total viewers - captured is not the right word
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- High School Musical 3 earned $42 million in its domestic opening weekend, - how much total?
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- which became the biggest opening for a musical film. - Is this still true? If not it should be clarified.
- It still is per http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=musical.htm&sort=opengross&order=DESC&p=.htm Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- and Billboard claimed the album "doesn't give the singer room to comfortably let loose".[42] - This should be a separate sentence first of all, and claimed is not the correct word here
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- 10-12
- Tisdale's return into broadcast television occurred in 2010 - Tisdale returned to broadcast television in 2010
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- that reported Tisdale had signed on to co-star on her first major broadcast series role as Savannah Monroe, the peppy and fiercely intense captain of the Hellcats.[47] - Separate sentence
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The series had its script based on the book - The series based its script
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- She had vocal roles in several TV cartoons, during 2010, - why the commas around during 2010?
- done. Removed them. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- desireble and high-priced escort.[55] - Typo
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- to create, develop and executive produce a series. - Just produce... not executive, even if that is the case. If you want, you could mention serve as executive producer. Also, where is the serial comma after develop? You've used it everywhere else in the article.
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- 2013
- based on critical reviews, in both Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic.[68][69] - In?
- s it received low scores, based on critical reviews, - Low scores based on critical reviews? Poorly written
- done. Wasn't sure about what to do with that sentence, I hope it's better now. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- After four years since the release of her second studio album Guilty Pleasure in 2009, - Four years after ...
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Image
- , that included a mall tour in the US with performances in fashion shows hosted at each.[10] - why the comma?
- done. Removed it. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- she joined Got Milk? campaign.[73] - the Got Milk? campaign
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- and in 2013's - and in 2013
- Personal life
- In December, 2012, she began dating musician Christopher French since December 2012; - ???
- done. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just snippets, too. This is not a fully detailed review. There are just so many issues with the prose still. I'm sorry. :( ceranthor 22:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I feel bad about all that; English is not my first language so it's challenging to work in this kind of article. However, I'm doing the best I can and I'm happy that you're here helping me out. Thanks. Decodet (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are bits of information missing here and there throughout the article. The article could also benefit from a thorough third-party copy-edit.
- There is no mention of Valencia High School, to which Tisdale went. [4]
- I can add that without a problem but I'm just wondering if that is that really relevant? Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "and Mike Tisdale, the manager of a construction company and her elder sister, is also an actress" Sounds awkward. The sentence needs to be split.
- done. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- ""a little bit of both" of her parents' religions." What is her father's religion?
- done. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "She began her theatrical career by appearing in" What was her role?
- I couldn't find anything about that. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "At the age of twelve, Tisdale sang at the White House for President Bill Clinton." What was the occasion?
- Same here. Every reliable source doesn't give much detail. That's everything we know. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Why is the meaning of the quote under "2010–12: Return to broadcast television and producing"?
- It says actually "...on why he cast Tisdale". I can remove that if it's irrelevant for the article. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Her involvement in Dimension Films' Scary Movie 5 was announced in June 2012, by The Weinstein Company" → "In June 2012, The Weinstein Company announced her involvement in Dimension Films' Scary Movie 5" Remove passive voice.
- done. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "She played Jody, a late-'20s dancer, the leading role in the film, which also starred Lindsay Lohan and Charlie Sheen." → "Starring alongside Lindsay Lohan and Charlie Sheen, Tisdale portrayed Jody, the leading character of the film who is dancer in her late-20s."
- done. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "The film received an April 2013 release and grossed $15 million on its first weekend, making it the lowest-grossing opening weekend for a film in the franchise; it also became a critical failure." → "The film was released in April 2013 and grossed US$15 million on its first weekend, making it the lowest-grossing weekend for a Scary Movie film; it was a critical failure."
- done. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- done. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "In May 2013, TMZ reported that a man named Nicholas Fiore, who had sent more than 18,000 tweet messages to Tisdale's Twitter account
dating back to since 2012, had shown up at her home in Los Angeles."
- done. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "he has threatened to shoot both her and her boyfriend," By the way, what was the man's reasoning for the threat?
- done. Jealousy. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The references need to be standardized. For example, there are references that have the both publication and publisher names, while others lack both (FN 90 and FN 94).
- done. Fixed not only those two but a couple more that missed either publication or publisher names. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment I do not think the article is fit for the FA status. It lacks information and could be reworded to improve flow. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 04:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your review. I've solved your comments and I hope the article is better now. I'll try to reword some sentences later today. Decodet (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
- Don't include comma within date in lead caption
- done. Decodet (talk) 00:43, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Signature_of_Ashley_Tisdale.svg: as it seems unlikely that the uploader is Tisdale, authorship, source and licensing needs to be clarified here
- I thought it would be better if I just remove it. That image was uploaded three years ago so there is no way to track those informations. Decodet (talk) 00:43, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Maxim_May_2013_cover.jpg: the given purpose of use is inconsistent with the image's actual use in the article. The FUR in general needs work, as a stronger case is needed for the use of this non-free image. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:04, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- That image has been removed. Thanks for your review! Decodet (talk) 00:43, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Nominated the image as orphaned for deletion (in 7 days). Please update the image summary, if you plan to use it for some other article. GermanJoe (talk) 13:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Fiore
How is the Fiore person relevant to her career? Or her personal life? He sent her lots of tweets? She made various allegations about him? What else? TMZ is not a great source for this sort of thing, likewise similar publications. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:02, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- This man stalked her and has threatened to kill both Tisdale and boyfriend - I don't know, I thought this was relevant to her personal life because it was a fact that received a lot of media coverage. Do you still think it's irrelevant to her personal life? If so, I may remove that paragraph without a problem. Decodet (talk) 00:52, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- My opinion doesn't matter much. I do wonder, has it changed her career? Affected how she chose to perform? Anything significant? Or just a lot of fuss at the time? If reliable sources still talk about it as a major thing in her career then it's worth including... you have to look at how important it is to her career as a whole. Compare with U2. Lots of nuts. How important is each nut? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:01, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, you have a point. It was really just a lot of fuss at the time, not anything major in her career. It's been removed. Decodet (talk) 01:14, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose based on source review.
- What makes Celebrity Net Worth, Cliff.com, TV By The Numbers and The Futon Critic high quality reliable sources?
- I never even knew why people added this Net Worth thing. I assumed it was a new Wikipedia standard so that's why I kept it - it's been removed now. TV by the Numbers is a reliable source actually. I've also replaced Futon Critic and Cliff.com for ABC and Los Angeles Times respectively. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I am unconvinced that TV By The Numbers is a high quality reliable source. The site gives no information on the qualifications of the writer/publishers nor does it discuss editorial oversight and fact-checking. The Wikipedian Penguin 21:17, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Publisher notation is inconsistent for magazines: brackets or no brackets?
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Publisher notation is inconsistent for newspapers: brackets or no brackets?
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Italicization of websites is inconsistent.
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Assuming that "iTunes Store" is the work, why is it not italicized while other website names are? A standard I've used in articles I've written is to only italicize the titles of books, magazines and newspapers. For references that are exclusively online, the names are unitalicized, as they would be in article prose. Choose a style, but be consistent. The Wikipedian Penguin 21:17, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Some typos in the refs (eg. 41, ref 78, ref 81)
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Incorrect publishers (eg. AOL publishers The Huffington Post, Time Inc. publishers Entertainment Weekly)
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Avoid "Inc", "Ltd" and "LLC" in publisher fields unless it is there to avoid confusion. (eg. Viacom International Inc. can be simply Viacom).
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikilinking of works and publishers needs to be checked. Link only on first occurrence, all occurrences or no occurrences.
- done. I hope I didn't miss anything. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- In ref titles, double hyphens ("--") and hyphens used as dashes (eg. ref 76) should be replaced with en dashes preceded by nbsps.
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Also to avoid in ref titles are ALL CAPS.
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Article prose also needs copyediting. Examples:
- "In her childhood" sounds iffy. I think it should be "During her childhood".
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Two years later, Tisdale began to cultivate an adult image and mainstream pop sound and released her second studio album Guilty Pleasure (2009)." —you say "two years later", so the "2009" notation is not needed.
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Disney Channel's three-time Emmy Award winner animated series Phineas & Ferb as Candace Flynn..."—"winner" should be "winning" and there should be a hyphen after "Award". "Series" is also used twice in this sentence.
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Redundancy: "Tisdale
has also pursued a career as a film and television producer, working [worked] as [the] executive producer on a number of films and television series including the ABC Family television film Picture This and the Bravo's 2012 unscripted series Miss Advised."
- done. Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
After being open for this long and there being no supports, I am a little worried about this FAC. There are still issues throughout that need to be addressed. The Wikipedian Penguin 15:13, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I've resolved the issues you've listed. If there are any more, I'd like if you address them so I can fix them. Thanks for your review! Decodet (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You are most welcome. Just a quick note: refrain from bold "done"s in FACs. This excessive bolding is distracting to reviewers and delegates. The Wikipedian Penguin 21:20, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Closing comment After six weeks here there is no consensus to promote this article and I will close it shorty. Please note that two weeks must elapse before renomination. Graham Colm (talk) 21:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC) [9].[reply]
- Nominator(s): Darkness Shines (talk) 23:11, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets the criteria Darkness Shines (talk) 23:11, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Some points:
- Can you wikilink Nazi Holocaust?
- "The intensity of the West Pakistani military action surprised international observers and Bengali nationalists, since the pro-democracy movement had been peaceful till then." I'd source this.
- Link Chittagong.
- Writing to The New York Times a group of women -add comma after Times.
- Inconsistency in date formatting with two/four hundred thousand and 5,000 and 30,000 below, I'd rather you wrote it in digits.
- Delink Nazi before Lebensborn and Nazi Germany wiki link it initially next to Holocaust further up as requested.
- "After the conflict the victims went through a second ordeal: widespread sexual infections and feelings of intense shame and humiliation." Unnecessary use of a colon, simply "Many of the victims suffered from sexual infections and feelings of intense shame and humiliation, and a number were ostracised by their families and communities or committed suicide." will do.
- "The list included members of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party, a political group founded in 1978." Seems unusual for you to mention just one party, and one which formed 7 years after the ordeal. I'd feel more comfortable if you mentioned some of the other alleged perpetrators (groups) for neutrality purposes.
- Rising from the Ashes women's narratives of 1971 The first translation to English of the oral testimonies given by women who were not just abused, but women such as Taramon Bibi who fought in the war and was awarded the Bir Protik(Symbol of Valour)." Please rewrite this with appropriate punctuation and structure.
- It would be good if you could find a photograph from 1971 of women in captivity or soldiers. I'd accept the upload of a fair use image from 1971 to illustrate something important in the article and I think you could claim it for encyclopedic purposes. Obviously a photo of an actual rape if it exists would be inappropriate, but something along the lines of women in captivity or some event from the period being depicted would really help the article I think.Something like this is worth a 1000 words.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:50, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I had an image before but it was removed, license will I need if I upload one? This one is kinda brutal, but a good depiction of what they went through. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:06, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd ask User:Jmabel if you could claim use of a fair use image. I think either image would really improve this.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:09, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I uploaded and added it already
But thanks to the wonderful world of echo we shall still ask as expert. Jmabel if you have a moment could you advice please? Darkness Shines (talk) 12:27, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Some would argue that fair use would require making some sort of commentary on the photo itself, but in this case I think minimal commentary indicating what it illustrates would suffice. Remember to use Template:Non-free use rationale on the image page. - Jmabel | Talk 17:10, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I used that with the upload wizard, so if the image is discussed in the article it is a definite keeper? Cos I am sure I saw this image in a book, I will have to trawl through my e-books and hard copies. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:16, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment there is currently a technical problem. Wen you converted refs to use sfn style, the conversion was incorrectly done. First, you don't need to mention page numbers within the complete bibliography, since you are indicating page numbers in individual citations. Second, for cite book templates, ref=harv parameter needs to be added for proper working of the style. I have illustrated a few examples in the article. However, for cite web templates, and in some other instances where author name is not available, there are some other methods of parameter. Please see an article that uses the style to understand that. Yes it does need some work, but the end result is aesthetically more soothing. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Shit man, I spent about three hours faffing about with that ( Will go fix it now. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Right, I think I got them all. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:42, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- @Dwaipayanc: The newspaper citation do not jump to the bibliography as no page numbers, do I did an experiment, and added for one p=BBC, (p-can be publisher?) and it works, is that OK? If so I can get the rest done. Darkness Shines (talk) 09:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I have tried to go over the technical aspect of the citations, and corrected quite a lot. Most of them appear ok to me now. Exception: Hadden 1971 citation, which ideally should have connected to Hadden, Briton; Henry Robinson Luce (1971). "Time Volume 98". Time. However, that detailed citation seesm incorrect. Moreover, it is not available online, so not able to cross-check. Either give actual details of teh full citation (such as, page number, actual authors), or replace that. Also, the bibliographic entry Mannan, Abdul (December 2009). "People in people's war". Daily Star. has not been used as a reference. So, it can be removed.
- Now, another big task. The bibliographic entries should be sorted alphabetically. For determining alphabetic order, consider first author's (last) name. If no author present, you can use the title of the work (title of the book, or title of news report) for alphabetic sorting.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:35, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I can do that tomorrow, I am off to bed it a little bit. And thank you BTW, you are teaching me a lot. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Insomnia kicked in again so I did it. Darkness Shines (talk) 00:32, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Uhh, don't sort stuff when you're in a state of insomnia. That list was still a complete mess. I fixed it some now, but I don't guarantee it's completely correct yet. Also, please don't forget those chapter titles I mentioned below. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:01, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
- File:Woman_raped_and_killed_in_the_Bangladesh_Liberation_War.jpg: can we be more expansive with the "not replaceable" rationale? Any more details on original photographer or publication? What steps have been taken to attempt to identify the original photographer? Have to be really careful with the "unique historic image" rationale, as it's stricter than most of the fair-use tags. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:58, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- @Nikkimaria: I have tracked down who took the photo, it was Naib Uddin Ahmed. He died December 14 2009. I am now trying to find out who now has the copyright ownership. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- A company called Drik picture library seem to hold the copyright, at least that is what I have figured out so far. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Since Drik is a commercial agency, this unfortunately puts it in the same class as images owned by other commercial agencies such as Reuters or AP: unuseable unless the image is itself the object (not just a vehicle) of encyclopedic coverage; otherwise subject to speedy deletion under WP:CSD#F7b. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:30, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- How does one go about getting permission? If I mail them to ask if they would be OK with a single usage for this article and they retain copyright, is there someone on Wiki they need to mail? Or a special form they need fill? Darkness Shines (talk) 19:13, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- That won't work, unfortunately, because our policy is an all-or-nothing thing: either a fully free release under a free license such ass cc-by-sa, or the full weight of the NFC critera. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:17, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- If a non free image is discussed extensively in the article, then could one be kept? Darkness Shines (talk) 22:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, but it would have to be sourced discussion of the image itself, i.e. as a notable photographic work (the history of how it was taken, its aesthetics, its impact on public opinion etc.), not just a discussion of the things the image shows. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:56, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I have two sources which discuss in detail a specific photo taken, I will add the text tomorrow and then, if you think it enough I can upload the image, thanks. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:45, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- @Future Perfect at Sunrise: Can you look at what I added in my last two edits and let me know if I need to expand on the text so we can use an image please. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:22, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm, couple of points. First, the text as it stands is heavily ungrammatical, including bits that are presumably literal quotes. I can't find the "classical a pose..." bit in either of the two cited sources, and there seems to be a closing quotation mark missing; can you check that again? Second, are the two passages really talking about the same image? The one source seems to be talking about an image titled "Brave Woman", the other about one called "Shamed Woman". Are they the same? I assume one of them is this, but I don't find it that easy to think of that one as a "classical pose" like that of a Madonna and Child.
- The other thing is, why are we discussing this image here? Right now, the text still seems a bit as if tacked on to the article as an afterthought – more like the text being there in order to deliver a pretext for showing the image, than the image being there in order to illustrate the text. Apparently Ahmed published quite a number of images touching on the topic, so why would we want to make this particular one a subject of discussion at that point in the article? Not quite convinced yet. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:55, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Same image, two different names given. The text is tacked on. I wanted to know how much needs be added so we can use the image. I choose this image as it is discussed in two academic sources and is notable for it. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:00, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I removed this passage in the "Aftermath" section [10], for two reasons: first, it is quite off-topic, talking about some author's personal feelings in dealing with the atrocities. Secondly, it quite unnecessarily diverts attention from the main topic through a rather misleading and confusing comparison with the Nazi "Lebensborn" programme. The author of the quote clearly had no idea what the Lebensborn actually was. I'm irritated to find that the main author of the article recently clandestinely reintroduced this passage, after agreeing during a discussion last year that it was misleading [11].
- Also in the "Aftermath" section, there is a statement saying "A doctor at the rehabilitation center in Dhaka reported 170,000 abortions of pregnancies caused by the rapes, and the births of 30,000 war babies". However, the very next paragraph says that "Estimates of the number of pregnancies range from 25,000[50] to the Bangladeshi government's figure of 70,000". These two statements are blatantly contradictory (the estimate cited in the previous sentence is almost three times higher than even the highest estimate cited in the next). These statements need to be put into proper context and related to each other, or be left out.
- About the same citation: I can't check the source online, but did the Dhaka doctor really "report" these figures, or did he just estimate? "Reporting" entails that he had the means of accurately counting based on direct observation. This would be quite astonishing.
- Structure and scope: the "Background" section is far too long. This would be a suitable "background" section for the Bangladesh War of Independence article, but not for this one. For this article, the war itself is only the background; its ultimate political causes (i.e. the background of the background) do not need to be rehashed here at such length.
- Regarding background, then do you suggest to remove (or, maybe summarize in two sentences) the initial two paragraphs? And essentially start from December 1970? I had a feeling that background is probably long, but was not sure where to start really. I would suggest Darkness Shines to hear what Fut.Perfect has to say in this regard. --Dwaipayan (talk) 01:09, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Nope, the background is necessary to give readers a full understanding of what led up to this, and this has been discussed before and FPaS was wrong then just as he is wrong now, we cannot expect people to have to go read another article to try and figure out what happened when they are halfway through reading this one. The current background section was discussed before and consensus was that it was fine, and I have since then trimmed it myself. Darkness Shines (talk) 07:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Reference formalities: chapter titles in edited collections are frequently missing, e.g. in Mohsin 2005, Khondker 2006 etc. If you are going to cite an individually authored chapter in a collection, then the title of the chapter needs to be cited together with the name of the author.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:26, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- More: Grammar and prose is poor overall (see copyedits I had to make here: [14], showing weaknesses in correct use of commas to set off grammatical appositions and distinguish non-defining from defining relative clauses). There are more such passages.
- Overall structure of the prose: much of the presentation is repetitive and poorly structured, with statements being stacked onto each other seemingly more with a view towards maximising the rhetorical effect of the repeated accusatory statements than with a view to their precise logical relationships (see for instance the tweak I tried here [15], or the example about the estimates of pregnancies mentioned above). Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:37, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I am getting rather tired of your vendetta against me. I have restored the quote you removed, as it is very relevant to the article, what your personal beliefs on what the author knew is irrelevant, he most likely meant it in manner of the common belief of Lebensborn. The background section is needed, for background, so the readers get an idea of what caused this. Your point on the number of pregnancies shows you know little of the subject matter, 25000 is the number of estimate war babies, which I shall now make clear. Given your personal dislike of me you should not even be commenting here. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:48, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll offer my constructive criticism of articles wherever and whenever I choose, thank you very much. Your "fix" to the pregancies estimates doesn't solve the problem. You first claimed [16] the 25,000–70,000 estimate was only the estimate of births (comparable to the doctor's figure of 50,000, which would be within a logical range), but then you changed it again claiming it was "other estimates" of the total of pregnancies [17]? In that case, you are still left with the problem of not having explained why you are first citing that outside estimate that is so exorbitantly higher. Has that estimate some special authority that would justify us giving it pride of place? Why then have the authors of the other estimates ignored it? – As for the "lebensborn" thing, I'm not going to discuss that with you further, having experienced your inaccessibility to logical argument too many times. It's absurd and has to go, and the article will not be featured while it's there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:07, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I see a comment from an editor up above who does not have an axe to grind saying the article is pretty damn good, and that quote was there when he looked it over. You do not get to decide that one quote stops an article from being FA. No other estimates are ignored, they are all there. I am citing all estimates per NPOV, which kinda says we have to. Why not go and pick on someone else and leave this for uninvolved editors to review. And if you will not discuss the quote you can remove the pointy tag you added, cheers. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:13, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The tag on the "Lebensborn" passage stays. In its present state, the article not only reports Davies' statement, which presupposes that the Lebensborn was a place of "atrocities" comparable to the Bangladesh rapes (a piece of known historical falsehood, that is); it also, by failing to correct or hedge this presupposition, carries the implication that it is indeed true. This is historically misleading – and quite unnecessarily so, because the whole comparison is extraneous to the topic anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Not at all, as most people when they hear Lebensborn think "breeding camp" as that is what the term has come to be associated with, as can be seen in Spiegal The BBC and a host of others. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:55, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because that misperception is common is not an excuse for spreading it further, as the article is now doing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:57, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not a misperception, it is what the term has come to mean. I think you may have to learn to live with that. BTW, 2013 A Social History of The Third Reich discusses Lebensborn as a breeding programme. So even academic sources seem to have gone along with the masses. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You guys may want to add a footnote describing what Lebensborn is, about the misperception, or, the usage of the word.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:07, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- An elegant solution, thank you, FPaS, you OK with that? Darkness Shines (talk) 19:10, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Not worth it. It would be a sensible solution if the quotation was otherwise of some encyclopedic value, but it isn't. Such a discussion would only unnecessarily divert the reader's attention away from the main point, which is that people were raped in Bangladesh. Nobody cares about what some Australian doctor felt while working with them, and nobody cares about what that doctor mistakenly thought the rapes in Bangladesh were comparable with. The only reason to have this bit (and in a literal block quote, no less) is to gain the extra emotional power of having that comparison with the nazis; why would we throw that comparison at the reader when we are forced in the next moment to retract it and explain to them that these two things weren't comparable after all? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Again your thoughts on what the doctor thoughts being mistaken have no place here, it is obvious he meant it in the common perception of the word. I am happy removing the block quote and paraphrasing it if that would suit you better? Darkness Shines (talk) 19:19, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- No, because I still don't see why that part of the doctor's opinions and feelings is even relevant, even independently of the fact that they also happen to be factually wrong on that extraneous issue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:24, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Except the Doc is not wrong is he, you are. The links I gave you prove that. And if you are not willing to compromise then the lot can stay and I will remove your pointy tag. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:28, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Classical case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Further attempts at rational discussion with D.S. are evidently hopeless at this point. D.S., continue edit-warring about this and you'll go straight to WP:AE for the topic-ban that has been long overdue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:36, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Do as you will, if you will not compromise then this conversation ain't going anywhere is it? Darkness Shines (talk) 19:44, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I feel this version, which does NOT have the quote by the doctor, reads good enough. For now, Darkness Shines, I think it is pretty ok to not have the quote, and move along. There are other things to take care of in this article.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:09, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
{out}@Dwaipayan: I have already removed it, I will go with whatever consensus arrives from the RFC I initiated. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:21, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Neutrality issues
In the recent literature there has been a well-known "revisionist" account of the events put forward by Sarmila Bose, who apparently calls into question the extent and the planned/deliberate nature of the rapes by the Pakistani military. Covering this minority view was recently suggested on the talk page but met with angry rejection from User:Darkness Shines [18]. Currently she is not mentioned in the article at all. Now, it may very well be the case that her views are a minority position (and undoubtedly a highly unpopular one in many quarters), and it may well be the case that most of the reactions to them have been critical, but still, she appears to be a bona fide academic researcher on the issue, and in light of the amount of reactions she has elicited even in the non-academic media her views are certainly notable. I don't see that simply ignoring her or treating her as pseudo-academic "fringe" is in line with NPOV requirements. Somebody will have to take up the challenge and add a fair and balanced discussion of her position, which maybe won't be easy (and somehow I have doubts if those editors who have been working on the article so far have what it takes to do this.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:15, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Bose id a joke, her book does not mention the rape victims so is of no use to us, I looked at one of the sources given on the talk page, Bose estimates a few thousand rapes in it. She also says there were only 30,000 Pakistani troops in theatre, it was 90,000, she is not just fringe, she is both way wrong and fringe. Her "work" has no place in an article on Wikipedia. She has got to be the most minority view of minority views anywhere. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:23, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Even though a joke, she probably needs a mention.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:49, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Never going to happen, anyone who gets the number of troops on the ground wrong gets zero weight, anyone who says the rapes were only a few thousand, come on. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:11, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- False/misleading citations
In several passages citing the ref "Totten 2008", claims and opinions are explicitly attributed in the text to Samuel Totten, who is listed in the author field of the ref entry. However, Totten is merely a co-editor; the author of the article in question is Rounaq Jahan (thanks to Smsarmad for spotting this [19]. He has partly cleaned it up, but there are other incidences of the same error further in the article). This is a problem that goes well beyond the one I noted above, about chapter titles not being named properly, because in this instance authorial opinions have been explicitly misattributed. All ref entries involving collected volumes need to be checked thoroughly to make sure editorial and authorial roles are correctly documented. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:28, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: similar misattribution in the case of "Totten 2009", falsely cited like an authored monograph but in reality also an edited collection. Same for "Totten 2004". And "Schulz 2007". Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hardly a major issue for gods sake, all one need do is change the refs so it says Tonnen is the Ed, I can give the actual author later. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:11, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Darkness Shines, this is important. You need to be absolutely precise and correct about citation. It matters who actually wrote/spoke. So, please take care of this urgently.--Dwaipayan (talk)
- I think I got the last of them. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:47, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- With chapters in edited volumes, you cite the chapter names, not just the chapter numbers. You should also provide the page numbers (the one in the inline harvard ref is just the page reference to the specific passage you're citing; in the bibliography you give the first and last page of the whole chapter.) Also, please don't forget there's still the issue of numerous entries that have both editor and author names but lack chapter titles (I've fixed a few of them to show what I mean [20], but there are certainly more.) Another (harmless but cosmetic) issue: capitalization in titles is not consistent yet. Use either title casing or normal text casing throughout (or, for a fancy option, use title casing for book titles and normal text casing for chapters). Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:29, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The article is not upto the FA status, it has many neutrality flaws. Even the lead is not edligible for a Featured article. The article is Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War, this means that it should describe the rape committed on all communities. But I regret, the current form of the article blames "Pakistani military" everywhere. Or more simply, the article is only for "Rapes of Bengalis during the Bangladesh Liberation War". The rapes and atrocities on Biharis, the Stranded Pakistanis need to be described too. The lead should also mention it, and the article needs serious fixing over neutrality issues. It seems a Nationalist encyclopedia's article here in Wikipedia to me. There is only one section of "Mukti Bahini actions" attribued to atrocities on Biharis, whereas the rest of the whole article is for the Bengalis. The lead can be brought on the lines of: "During the Bangladesh Liberation War of 1971, hundreds of thousands of women were raped by members of the Pakistani military and the militias supporting them and the Bengali militants." Both of the major communities of Biharis and Bengalis were equally affected." I hope my rationale is understood. Severe need of improvement. Faizan 07:03, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Get real, this was discussed before, and there is noway in hell that both communities were "equally affected" That is so wrong it actually defies belief. The MB atrocities are mentioned in the lede per due weight. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:25, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Hehe. Fancy comment by Faizan. Give me a break! Yes, of course for the sake of neutrality, rapes committed by Mukti Bahini need to be mentioned, and those are mentioned, both in the lead and the body of the article. Indeed I was surprised to see the mention in the lead, because the atrocities committed by Pak Army far outweighs those by Mukti Bahini. Anyway, if you really want to sound rational, Faizan, come up with some neutrally sourced statistics.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Do we really need to include the actions of Mukti Bahini in the lead? Per WP:LEAD, only the significant parts of the article must be summarized in the lead and the actions of Mukti Bahini doesn't really seem to be significant.--Zayeem (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Sadly yes, per the previous consensus, as it stands I believe due weight is given. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Darkness Shines, you simply cannot react this way to any criticism of the article. "Get real, this was discussed before, and there is noway in hell" far exceeds the expected manner of candidates here. It's one of the main doctrines of FAC that you respect all input, however irritating and you've been nothing but insulting in return. I'm just waiting for Ian or Graham to archive this as you've overstepped the mark with at least two editors now to continue with this. I strongly suggest you take a look at how you've reacted here and try to respect the input. Generally I thought it was very good and an informative account which was easy to follow and I feel it has FA potential. However, some of the concerns about the prose may be valid.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:18, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Then you gave them what they want, well done. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't give anybody what they want. If editors are concerned about neutrality I'd take that very seriously. Your behaviour here has really let you down.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:23, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- As has yours, I mentioned above the issues between FPaS and myself, you said what about that exactly? So archive it and be done, so long as that guy is allowed to stalk and harass me then this article will never get to FA anyway, he will not have that cos he detests me, so ya, you have given them what they want. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:27, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you have a long history of disagreements with these editors? It is a very sensitive topic, and it doesn't surprise me it is disputed on here but if there are valid concerns with neutrality and prose then they need to be addressed respectfully.. And I haven't done anything Darkness, if Ian or Graham archive this is is because of your hostile attitude shown here which is completely unacceptable here, whatever your history with these editors is. If you can't understand this then perhaps FAC isn't for you.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:37, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I posted on your talk page, let this get archived as it is obvious so long as those who have an axe to grind will quite simply not let it pass, I am sorry to have wasted you time. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If there are long-standing issues with the article they really need to be sorted before nominating for FAC. If you simply cannot come to some form of an agreement with the others over it then I don't think this ever has a chance of passing. The conditions need to be completely calm and amicable between editors over the article to pass FA. Sorry to see, as a I genuinely thought that this has potential.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:49, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Get the article fixed, especially for neutrality. It needs restructuring. Issues cited by me stand unaddressed. Or I can aid with edits on the article. Faizan 07:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Your issues were addressed previously, the consensus is that the atrocities carried out by Pakistan and the militias far outweigh the revenge attacks, the weight was given accordingly. If you wish to suggest an addition please use the article talk page. Darkness Shines (talk) 07:31, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Then not going to proceed this way. Faizan 07:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- As per your request a thread has also been started at talk. Faizan 07:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Apologize to all[edit]
Sorry for my loss of temper yesterday, four days without sleep sent me a tad loopy. I would like the review to continue if possible. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:30, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see quite a few issues here, including some unresolved since first FAC.
"it is today widely seen...". If i recall correctly, this use of "today" may not be consistent with MOS."The methodical planning behind the genocide drew comparisons with the Nazi Holocaust" - plural "comparisons", but only one citation.The paragraph that begins "Between the middle of May and September 1971,..." needs some work. It appears to me that most of this para is intended to present an argument, that there was a racist motive behind rape as a tactic of war. If so, the first sentence is irrelevant and should be deleted. Then, a new first sentence should state this argument in general, then allowing the following material to lay out the evidence and the points made by those who put this argument.
"Owing to the scale of the atrocities, Archer Blood, the US Consul General in Dhaka, sent what became known as the Blood telegram, in which the signatories denounced American "complicity in Genocide"". This requires some unpacking - first, a concul would normally send his/her own telegrams, so the idea that it had multiple signatories seems strange. Second, I don't understand the relevance / meaning, in this particular sentence, of "Owing to the scale of the atrocities". Is this meant to explain the actions of Blood, or the fact that there were all the signatories... i just don't follow the argument here.Estimates of numbers of people raped should not be in "aftermath", they go to the core of the article's subject, and should be included there. The estimates should be discussed in a bit more detail, and notwithstanding the fact that Davis was 'on the ground', his particular views are given far more weight than any others.
"Estimates of those raped vary from 200,000[62] to 400,000" - except that later, the article states that the 1974 commission supplementary report estimated "hundreds" - which should presumably therefore form the lower end of the range?
- I further edited a proposed revision, to reduce the emphasis on the Pakistani government figure (as it is not an independent source and lies so far outside other estimates. I also reorganised the paras to cluster together all the quantitative data, which strengthens the case for the 200K to 400K range being correct.hamiltonstone (talk) 00:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"...by John Tulloch to be as "classical a pose as any Madonna and Child, however the image is that of a woman, it is not possible to determine age who had been raped repeatedly" Something wrong here - there is no close quotation mark and it does not appear to be a sentence.
The quote has now been closed, but the following phrase makes no sense: "...however the image is that of a woman, it is not possible to determine age who had been raped repeatedly."
"Abul Kalam Azad was the first person to be sentenced for crimes during the war." Slightly confusing, since we have already been told of the first person to be indicted and also sentenced (I realise there is a difference) but also, we have no context as to why we are being told about Azad, since we know nothing of what the crimes, or the sentence, were.
The man's name is wikilinked to an article on an unrelated person. And, while we now have text on what his crimes were, which is good, we don't have text on who he was. A commander? A regular soldier? A general? hamiltonstone (talk) 10:13, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Referencing issue - footnotes refer to Roy 2010a, but can't tell which is a or b from reference list?If 2010a is the first of the two in the reference list, then my reading of it suggests it is not strong enough to substantiate the text "...but human rights advocates are of the opinion that the mass rapes and killings of women may not be addressed". The article quotes only two lawyers, one hopeful, one "skeptical": certainly not something that substantiates the text as written.
- There is some language which seems to me to sound too much like a news feature article or editorial and not enough like an encyclopedia article. Examples:
"indiscriminately killing Bengali civilians". If the source actually uses the word "indiscriminately", then put it in quotes;"In what has been described as a deliberate attempt to destroy an entire ethnic group..." the use of "entire" here is redundant and carries a POV; described by whom?
"entire" has been removed, but we still have the passive "has been described", which still needs a subject (ie. who describes it this way?) hamiltonstone (talk) 00:30, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Pakistani General Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi claimed that thousands of men and women had been killed or raped in Chittagong". Only use of the word "claim/ed" in the article - can you explain why this is the only place it is appropriate that it be used?"The events of the nine-month conflict are widely viewed as genocide" - if "widely viewed", then need more than one citation, otherwise we cannot be sure this isn't just Simms' view."Sheikh Mujibur Rahman called the victims birangona ("heroine"), but this only underscored the fact..." The expression "this only underscored the fact" in this context appears to me unencyclopedic and designed to emphasise the view expressed.
Those are my initial thoughts. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:02, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your comments, I will get on all of that ASAP, but RE the genocide, this was resolved a while ago at a RM on the genocide article, here I presented this source "A consensus has formed among scholars that genocides in the 20th century encompassed (although were not limited to) the following cases: Herero in 1904–1907, the Armenian genocide in the Ottoman Empire in 1915–1923, the Holodomor in the former Soviet Ukraine in 1932–1933, the Jewish Holocaust in 1938–1945, Bangladesh in 1971, Cambodia in 1975–1979, East Timor in 1975–1999, Bosnia in 1991–1995, and Rwanda in 1994."[21] So that ought to resopve that issue. Should I add that to the article? Darkness Shines (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure what you are responding to with this comment. Assuming it is my comment in the last group - i am not trying to open up a debate about whether or not this was genocide, I am simply saying that, when a WP article says something is "widely viewed" as having a certain nature (in this case, genocide), we need multiple sources for the claim, thus assuring us that the view is indeed widely held, and not just the view held by the author of the one source cited. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:05, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I was yes, I have copyedited it and added the academic consensus to the article. I have also gotten to a few of the other points you have raised. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:23, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- @Hamiltonstone: I thin I have gotten a fair few of the issues you have raised, however I am wondering where you think the estimates of those raped ought to actually go? I cannot see any other section they ought to be? Darkness Shines (talk) 21:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- @Hamiltonstone:I think I have now gotten the lot? Other than the estimates, where did you think they ought to go? Darkness Shines (talk) 19:27, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Going to have to think about this more - i think it may reflect a broader structural issue in the article, but not sure. Regardless, the text is much improved. If I don't come back to you by Monday, ping me again. [User:Hamiltonstone|hamiltonstone]] (talk) 23:44, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Further query re aftermath. It refers at one point to some figures "...before the state programme had even started". Re-reading the paragraph, i am not sure what the term "state programme" is referring to, as Davis's program appears to be international organisation, not Bangladeshi. Can you clarify? hamiltonstone (talk) 00:07, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The state programme was carried out by international groups, I will reword it to clarify that. Darkness Shines (talk) 06:03, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for clarifying. The change you made however doesn't really help, and "abortion programme" sounds nightmarish - like a form of genocide. I suggest you revert those words to "state program", and split the second sentence of the para in two, to read: "In the year following the war, there was a Bangladeshi government-mandated victim relief programme, supported by the World Health Organization and International Planned Parenthood Federation. Dr. Geoffrey Davis, a physician who participated in the programme, estimated that the commonly cited figures were probably "very conservative" compared with the real numbers". Would that accurately reflect the sources in your view? hamiltonstone (talk) 10:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, your suggestion is accurate so I have done the edit, thanks. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Where do we stand on this now? No comments for a while? Darkness Shines (talk) 01:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Further comments from Hamiltonstone
- I have done some restructuring to attempt to group all text that related to description of actual events under the "Pakistani Army actions" heading, including the key line about estimates of number of rapes.
I have a couple of issues with the first para under that heading, regarding Tikka Khan. My view is that exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and we don't have this at present. The Chalk source for the first sentence is OK, provided that the WP article is not relying on a primary source document included within Chalk. The second citation is highly problematic. Bisvasa 2005 appears not to be a scholarly secondary source, but publication of primary documents from the Mujibnagar Government for reference purposes. If I have understood that correctly, then it is not a sufficient source for the claim, because we need a high-quality secondary source reporting the claim.
Leaving aside the sourcing issues, both sentences need to specify who is claiming that Khan said these things. First sentence: "He reportedly said... " (ie. who reported?). Second sentence: "Khan is also reported to..." (ie. reported by whom?)
Getting there. hamiltonstone (talk) 13:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Sukumāra Biśvāsa is a professor, the documents in his book are press releases for the most part. Review here. I suppose we shall have to remove it. Darkness Shines (talk) 04:57, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the second claim will have to be removed. I probably did not explain myself very well. The issue is not Biśvāsa himself. The issue is that the book is a compilation of primary source documents from the post-independence government, which was (understandably) hostile to Pakistan. That government, or an official or department within it, might have claimed that Khan said something. But we cannot rely on them for that claim as they are neither neutral, nor a historian assessing the validity of the claim. We need a scholarly assessment by a neutral source that, having weighed up the evidence, accepts that Khan said this thing. We do not have that at present because, in the case of this book, Biśvāsa is assembling primary documents, not writing a scholarly analysis. Regarding the first claim, (Khan saying 'I will reduce this majority to a minority') can we get a second source supporting this (or alternatively, a source indicating that Khan does not dispute that he said it)? hamiltonstone (talk) 05:30, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed and added another ref for the first claim. Darkness Shines (talk) 05:54, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Support. hamiltonstone (talk) 07:12, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC) [22].[reply]
- Nominator(s): Ctatkinson (talk) 00:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this well-researched article for FA. After considerable labor by Wikipedians over several months to address earlier issues, this former featured article was promoted to GA last month. After reviewing and incorporating recommended changes, I believe the article now satisfies the criteria for FA. I hope you enjoy the article and I look forward to your comments. Thanks! Ctatkinson (talk) 00:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose at this time (Disclaimer: I initiated the FAR that removed this article's featured status)
- Multiple formatting errors/inconsistencies in both short cites and bibliography: FN109 is missing page numbers, some books include locations while others don't
- All books now include locations. FN109, The Days of My Life Volume II, is at Project Gutenberg Australia in text-only format without page numbers, so I've referenced the chapter. Ctatkinson (talk) 18:19, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, but there are still inconsistencies: for example, whether page ranges are abbreviated, some missing info (ex date for Carr in Bibliography), etc
- Someone ran a bot on the article a couple of days ago and I see it introduced a few small errors in the references. Carr was one of those, and I've just fixed it. I'll have this corrected this weekend. Thanks for letting me know.Ctatkinson (talk) 13:09, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Ctatkinson (talk) 01:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Not done. Further examples include: no citations to Britt; References section is misordered (it's mostly alphabetical, but then I see Montgomery before Hough?); inconsistent in whether states are spelled out or abbreviated; some hyphens rather than endashes in page ranges; etc. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- A list of sources is useful to the reader, so I've added a new ref for Britt to the article even though it is a bit redundant. I've moved Montgomery to its alpha location, and I've spelled out the states. I've been through the hyphens several times, as have other editors, but I can't locate any new issues. Is there a tool you use to check hyphens, or can you show any examples in the article? Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Significant WP:MOS cleanup needed in the article: hyphens/dashes, repeated links, etc
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- Some have, but others have not: for example "3 year old ...12-year old", Scouting in Arizona is linked twice in as many sentences, etc
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-
- Italics issues have been addressed. Question on dash posed in the above issue.Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Some material in the article is unsourced - for example, "he and Blanche settled down to tend to an orange grove in Pasadena, California, but within a year he was back prospecting and scouting"
-
- There you have, but that was only an example - the paragraph about Russell, for example, is still unsourced. Please check thoroughly.
- The paragraph about his grandson Russell is cited. I'll check the article elsewhere to see if I can uncover what you mean, or please provide more detail if you can.Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. Found Charles Edward Russell (cousin) and added reference. Additional references added elsewhere to eliminate ambiguity. Ctatkinson (talk) 01:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Other material is not supported by the cited source. For example, "Burnham and Armstrong waited until Mlimo entered the cave and started his dance of immunity, at which point Burnham shot Mlimo just below the heart" is cited to this source, which says that they tried to capture him alive and then killed him (and doesn't specify how)
- Added more detailed reference from van wyk. Ctatkinson (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Which is fine for that instance, but that was again only an example. A quick check finds another, "Also buried at Three Rivers cemetery...", unsupported by the cited source.
- Done. The newspaper ref already named the family plot, so I've added a reference from Lott with more details of the individuals buried.
- Okay, again, only an example. Another is that this source does not seem to support "Burnham was put in charge of both the general organization and recruitment from the Southwest". At this point, a thorough check of the article is needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. The NYT article uses the term: Western. Southwest is an imperfect substitute; however, Western U.S. is already used in this same sentence. It would be redundant to state this same geographical reference again, so deleting from the Southwest seems like the best option. I've checked again and I don't see other issues, but point out anything you believe we may have missed. Thanks. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Some of the phrasing used is not neutral or has an inappropriate tone - ex. "Ever the soldier of fortune..." Nikkimaria (talk) 14:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
-
- Doesn't fix the problem, and isn't the only instance.
- Davis wrote a bio on Burnham for his book Real Soldiers of Fortune, and soldier of fortune is how he describes Burnham. The term is synonymous with mercenary. Does this now make sense, or can you clarify your concern? Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I know what the term means, but the description outside of direct quotes is not a neutral one - although not specifically mentioned there, compare WP:W2W. Furthermore, this was only an example of neutrality/tone issues - others, if it would help, include "he struck it rich" and "it was said that he could read the face of nature as easily as most could read their morning newspaper" (the latter could be made a direct quote if applicable). Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Added quotes and ref to fix the soldier of fortune issue. Substituted "struck it rick" with "found great affluence". Deleted to the unnecessary analogy about the newspaper.
- On another look, finding more problems, including a dead link here and some instances of close paraphrasing (ex "His expeditions in Rhodesia were so important that the Royal Geographical Society elected him a Fellow" vs "His expedition was so important that the Royal Geographic Society elected him a Fellow").
- The URL to minernews went dead during the FAC. I'll need to substitute. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. I added the archived link to the minernews article metadata, and simplified the text: After this expedition he was elected a fellow of the Royal Geographical Society.Ctatkinson (talk) 16:18, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
At this point, I would suggest withdrawal to allow time for a thorough check and cleanup of the article. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:21, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- We have addressed the far more challenging issues you raised in the earlier FAR, and I think it would be most unfortunate to withdraw this outstanding former FA based on the few examples you have raised in this FAC. With little delay and only minor edits I speedily addressed the concerns you have identified. If you have new issues, I would be glad to take a look at those as well and I will continue to comment / address without delay.Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I've addressed all of the issues noted above. If you have still have any concerns, let me know. Thanks. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Have you pinged Nikki lately to see how she feels about the nom? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:46, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Nikkimaria doesn't seem to be checking here, so I've left another message on her talk page. Did you have any comments on the article? Ctatkinson (talk) 12:03, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I've withdrawn my suggestion for withdrawal, but I'm still finding more issues with this article. I haven't rechecked paraphrasing issues, but while reviewing I also found some prose issues, for example "always careful to keep a rifle within arms length". Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I've substituted with: she always kept a rifle nearby.Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The reviewer's opposed statement is now more than a month old. I have promptly addressed all of the actionable objections raised by the reviewer; however, this reviewer does not return regularly to check whether their objection has been addressed. Without clarifying and actionable feedback, I don't know of any action I can take to address this reviewer's objection. Ctatkinson (talk) 02:52, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Hello Ctatkinson. The problem with this review is that you address the specific examples I point out very promptly, but have not addressed the issues they exemplify. I can return time and again to give you more examples, but "The article has X problem as shown by Y instance" is not adequately solved by "I have fixed Y instance", because it misses instances ABCDE et al of X. So there are still problems with references, there are still issues with tone, etc, and my oppose still stands. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- @User:Nikkimaria: If you see continued problems, please keep listing the specific examples so they can be fixed. Either you'll run out of them and the article will be good, or they will remain not fixed and will be a valid reason to oppose. Just talking about generalities is not very helpful, I am afraid. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support: All issued addressed. Montanabw(talk) 22:10, 19 August 2013 (UTC) Reviewing: An initial wikignoming glance raised the following minor issues for me:[reply]
the footnotes/bibliography have duplications with the "Works/Biographies" sections. The layout is also a bit atypical. My recommendation is that the works actually WRITTEN by Burnham be moved above the references into the article text and specifically identified as such. All remaining works/biographies not used in the footnotes/bibliography should be consolidated into (in my opinion) a "further reading" section, though if you wish to break out the biographies from the scholarly papers, that would be fine. DONE Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]I'd like to see the lede bulked out a little more; it's a bit light. His military service is quite extensive and probably needs a better summary in the lead, WP:MOS wants a lead to not be too long, but I think three to four more solid paragraphs is easily doable here. DONE Montanabw(talk) 22:08, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]I popped in "Citation needed" tags where I saw something clearly unsourced. Hope that's more helpful than "stuff needs sourcing." Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE[reply]Kill all use of "whilst." It's just annoying. "While" is more modern use. (JMO, I suppose if we are talking UK English, it's more OK than in US English, but he is an American) Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE[reply]One of the quote boxes overlaps the article text on my computer. I noted the location in hidden text within the article. It's the only one that does this, not sure why. Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE[reply]I stuck some hidden text into the article where I found some issues or had specific questions. Feel free to remove when fixed or addressed. Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE[reply]Work on cleaning up the deadlinks, the WayBack machine can sometimes unearth an archived version of a page. DONE Montanabw(talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]More stuff: The quote box that begins "Burnham is the sufficient and heroic figure, model and living example, who inspired and gave..." is "sandwiching" text between it and the topographic map on my browser. That's also a wiki-MOS "crime" you now need to fix. Maybe you don't need two quote boxes in that section, hmmm...? DONE !!!!
- Comment on Native American issues: First off, when possible to use tribal affiliation, that is nearly always preferable to just saying "Indian" or "Native American." In the examples above, if "Sioux" is as good as you have, then use it, even if you can't narrow it down to the Lakota branch or whomever. Second always capitalize Native American. "big N" Native is acceptable; sometimes "small n" native is viewed as condescending by some Native people today (no uniformity on this, but the ones who care are the ones who will comment, the ones who don't care won't get upset either way.) Montanabw(talk) 03:53, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Native American issues fixed. I believe all the issues have now been addressed. Ctatkinson (talk) 02:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your helpful review, Montanabw. I have worked on the issues you raised and I believe all are now done. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I supported earlier, so just reiterating that I support this FAC. Montanabw(talk) 17:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support I've reviewed the article at GA and here, and seen the oppose and the actions taken in response. I believe it meets the criteria.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:08, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Support. I made some copyedits and have a few questions before supporting:
- In "Klondike Gold Rush", it's a bit confusing about how many children he has.
- Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine, but I think you could combine footnotes 60 & 61.
- In "Father of Scouting", you call Burnham "low-key". Really? His exploits sound fairly dramatic to me. It makes sense once you read the "Personal life" section, but seems out of place here.
- The "Oil wealth" paragraph is kind of short. Do you think it could be lengthened or, if not, combined with another section? Not a deal-breaker, but it does stand out, to my eye. --Coemgenus (talk) 16:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your insights, Coemgenus. I have worked on the issues you raised and I believe they are now addressed.Ctatkinson (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Great, changed to support. Good luck! --Coemgenus (talk) 01:50, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Review from Cliftonian[edit]
Support. After a lot of work I think this article now meets the FA criteria and should be promoted. —Cliftonian (talk) 06:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
| Resolved comments from Cliftonian (talk) 06:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
|
Hi, Here are my thoughts on the article. I enjoyed reading it and hope the comments below help.
- Infobox and lead
- We don't need the semicolon after "The King of Scouts"
- Do you think we can fix the weird parentheses issue on the "buried at" parameter?
- Done. Added a break after place of death. A bit of a kluge but it does the trick. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Indian Wars", while obvious from the context, should probably be "American Indian Wars"
- Done. The redirection needed to be fixed anyway as the page name seems to have stabilized. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The Pleasant Valley War is mentioned in the infobox and lead but is referred to as the Tonto Basin Feud in the body. Perhaps we should make clear these are the same thing
- Done. Pleasant Valley War is the modern name for the conflict. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The Geronimo Campaign is mentioned in the infobox but nowhere else in the article
- Done. I've added brief reference to this in his early life. I could add more depth, but Geronimo was not a particularly significant part of Burnham's life. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Maybe we should put years next to each wife
- You don't need commas after each name in the relatives section
- "Other work" You don't need a full stop (period) at the end here as this is not a sentence. I'm somewhat bemused by this choice of words: "wealthy oil man". Do we really need to say he was a wealthy oil man? Why not just oil man? American spy should probably be U.S. spy
- Done. I too was bemused when I re-read this. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "known for his service to the British Army in colonial Africa" He was initially in the service of the British South Africa Company, not the British Army. The two are not the same thing. My understanding is that he only actually joined the British Army in 1900, when Roberts took him on and gave him the formal rank of captain.
- Done. You have it right and I've updated accordingly. It gets a little more complicated because The Bulawayo Field Force militia reported to Gen. Carrington / Maj. Baden-Powell once the regular army arrived in Rhodesia in 1896, but technically Burnham was never in the British army until he joined Robert's HQ in the Boer War. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Born on an Indian reservation in Minnesota, Burnham learned the ways of Native Americans as a boy" They were Sioux, weren't they? Why not say so?
- Comment. I've left this "as is" for now, but I'm open to further discussion. The Sioux Nation was composed of various tribes, and Burnham spent part of his pre-teen youth with different native americans in California (Cahuilla and others), and later with native americans in Arizona (Apache and others). It is correct to say that he learned the ways of the Sioux, but I thought it might be somewhat more accurate and easier for the reader to say Native Americans. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Burnham had little formal education, attending high school but never graduating" Why not just say he "had little formal education, never finishing high school"?
- Pleasant Valley War and Apache Wars should be wikilinked
- "Sensing the Old West was becoming too tame" "Sensing" implies that he was definitely correct, which I don't think is what we mean to say; perhaps "Feeling the Old West ..."
- ", in 1893, Burnham took his family to southern Africa where his background proved useful" This is awkwardly worded and I don't think the last bit really adds anything (we say in the next paragraph he was useful). Perhaps make clear why he went. Maybe something like "Feeling the Old West was becoming too tame, Burnham took his family to southern Africa in 1893, perceiving Cecil Rhodes' Cape to Cairo project as the next undeveloped frontier."
- Done. Nice editing and application of your subject expertise.
- "and became Chief of Scouts" but he was already a Chief of Scouts at the time of the Shangani Patrol in 1893? Maybe make clear the significant event was his becoming Chief of Scouts under Roberts.
- Comment. The completed sentence is: "Burnham distinguished himself in several battles in Rhodesia and South Africa and became Chief of Scouts". I don't see where this sentence limits the use of his Chief of Scouts title to the Boer War, but I do agree that becoming Chief of Scouts under Roberts was a bigger deal than the use of this title in the Matabele Wars -- the Boer War was Burnham's first regular army gig and the number of troops and planning involved was significantly greater. I'm open to further ideas, but to try and keep this simple for the reader I've left this sentence "as is" for now.Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Was Hammond his son's business partner or his own?
- Comment. I've modified the sentence by removing Roderick, but to answer your question, John Hammond Sr. considered Fred Burnham to be a member of his family (he says as much in personal correspondence). Burnham Exploration Company was a joint venture between the Burnham and Hammond families, sons Roderick Burnham and Harris Hammond were included on the board, and Fred Burnham served as president. Roderick Burnham was by profession a geologist and an executive at Union Oil at the time the Burnham Exploration Company was incorporated; however, this relationship is probably too detailed and unnecessary for the lead. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "With the help of the BSA" Perhaps "With the support of the BSA"
- That it with this section for now. I'll keep working on your comments about the other sections later today. Thanks again for your help. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Early life
- Why not say what day he was born on?
- Do we know what denomination his family was?
- I presume this was a Sioux Indian reservation?
- Comment. Most sources say he lived on a Sioux reservation, but some say Winnebago. Both the Mdewakanton and the Ho-Chunk lived in southern Minnesota; however, I'm not sure if it is correct to say that either or both of these tribes are Sioux. Unfortunately, I don't yet know the exact location of Tivoli, Minnesota (a pioneer town, long gone), the 1860 reservation boundaries, or modern the tribal names adequately to answer this question. Little Crow attacked New Ulm in the Dakota War of 1862, but I don't believe he lived on the same reservation as the Burnhams, or at least it's not clear. I've left this as Indian reservation for now. Ctatkinson (talk) 19:00, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Do we know where his mother came from in England? We do not need to say she immigrated to America as it is clear from the context; saying she immigrated from England is enough
- Done. I've referenced and added her birth and immigration data.Ctatkinson (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- We mention New Ulm, MN being attacked during the Dakota War but we have not made clear how this place is relevant to Burnham.
- "Rebecca (Elizabeth) Russell Burnham" Was Elizabeth a nickname? If so it should be in quotation marks: Rebecca "Elizabeth" Russell Burnham. Also her name should be given above where she is first mentioned.
- Done. Elizabeth was her middle name, but she dropped it when she married Burnham. I've removed Elizabeth to avoid further confusion.Ctatkinson (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Once the Sioux had been driven away the mother returned to find the house burned down. Her young son was safe, fast asleep in the basket and protected only by the corn husks." I think we can merge these two sentences; "... burned down, but her young son was safe, fast asleep in the basket with the corn husks."
- *Comment. I've added more context here and edited the passage. I hope this helps. Ctatkinson (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think we need to wikilink bandit to outlaw
- why not wikilink Arizona Territory
- "He traveled in northern Mexico and the American Southwest, including Texas and Oklahoma Territory, earning a living as a buffalo hunter, cowboy, and prospector, and he continued working as a scout" Maybe "He traveled in northern Mexico and the American Southwest, including Texas and Oklahoma Territory, continuing his scouting and also earning a living as a buffalo hunter, cowboy and prospector"
- "The young Burnham eventually went on to attend high school in California but never graduated" Maybe "Burnham eventually went back to California to attend high school, but he never graduated"
- When did he become a Freemason? Was he one from birth? Where/what is Excelsior Lodge No. 195?
- Comments. The Mason's are a club and I've seen his 32-degree certificate in the archives at Yale, but I didn't make a copy and I don't have the date it was issued. Each mason is joins and is promoted at a particular lodge; however, his lodge is probably not important to the article, so I've removed this reference.Ctatkinson (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- As a "soldier of fortune,"—is this a phrase Burnham used to describe himself, or an appellation applied by somebody else?
- That it with this section for now. I'll keep working on your comments about the other sections later today. Ctatkinson (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Military career
- "Burnham went on to oversee and lead the Northern Territories (BSA) Exploration Co. expedition" Perhaps "Burnham oversaw and led the Northern Territories (BSA) Exploration Company expedition"
- "R.I.: "Burnham & Armstrong after the assassination of Mlimo. Matabele warriors in hot pursuit." What is "R.I"?
- Done. Not sure what this is. It was in a caption and I thought it might be a military term, but I've removed it now.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "due to the ill-fated Jameson Raid" Maybe mention was into the Transvaal
- Why not give Baden-Powell's full name? We don't even wikilink him?
- Done. Bad oversight. His full name and wikilink are in the lead, but should be here too.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Why not give Frederick Courteney Selous' full name?
- Done. I fixed the wikilink. 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- Why don't we give Carrington's full name? Why don't we wikilink him in the body?
- Done. Yes, indeed. I'm also disappointed by the brevity of his WP page. I'll need to correct this oversight at some point.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- A lot of places throughout the article we use abbreviations ("Gen.", "Maj.", "Co."); try to get rid of these
- In quoteboxes you don't need to put a full stop (period) at the end of the attribution as it's not a sentence.
- Wikilink Theodore Roosevelt
- "paid him a great tribute in his book" Which book?
- Comment. This phrase appears in several references, but in none of the sources is there a cite for the title of the book.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Say when the Boer War started.
- "Field Marshal Roberts was appointed" Who is Roberts? Not even a wikilink?
- Done. Big goof on my part. I've added wikilinks and a bit of background.Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "he left within the hour" Why not "he left immediately" or "he left within minutes"? Also, why "Although"? Considering the vast distance involved and the urgency of the appointment, one would surely expect him to leave quickly.
- Why is the wikilink to "Cape Town, South Africa" rather than just Cape Town? People know where Cape Town is.
- Why don't we link British Army?
- "Burnham would arrive at the front" Why not simply "Burnham reached the front"?
- Say when the Battle of Paardeberg was (Feb 1900).
- you can say veld, not veldt. perhaps also wikilink veld and put it in italics as it's an Afrikaans word
- mielies, not mealies. perhaps "mealies" (i.e. mielies, or maize)
- "British March on Pretoria" why is "March" capitalised?
- Done. 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- "He had been scouting alone" → "He scouted alone"
- "he had all but gotten away" → "he had almost escaped"
- A few references have hyphens (-) separating page numbers rather than endashes (–). Check on this
- Done. Another editor fixed these (thank you!). I think we've finally got this one out of the way. Ctatkinson (talk) 00:56, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Why isn't "Distinguished Service Order" linked? This is also not linked in the image caption or the lead.
- Done. I've added the wikilinks in this section. The lead already has a wikilink from DSO (after Burnham's name).Ctatkinson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "March to Pretoria" again why is "March" capitalised?
- "Lovat Scouts" shouldn't this be "the Lovat Scouts"?
- Maybe mention that he commanded the Lovat Scouts.
- Done. I've also added more background and a couple of refs.
- "Returning from the Boer War on the RMS Dunottar Castle, July 1900." Dunottar Castle should be italicised. The image caption here is intrusive and large; if you like I can try to make something similar to what we have on the directors image here
- Comment. The directors image is a great piece of work. How did you do it? Ctatkinson (talk) 12:28, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Father of Scouting
- Charterhouse should have a wikilink. It is also not in London but in Surrey (it was based in London, but it moved in 1872). Perhaps put "one of England's most famous public schools", wikilinking public school as this means something very different in the U.S.
- Why is woodcraft italicised? Perhaps quotation marks are better.
- "in these African hills" Why do we need to say African hills? We've already made clear where they are.
- "he fondly told people he "sucked him dry" Oh my.
- Done. Shame on you! I liked the racy quote, but I've modified the sentence to be more family friendly. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, I wasn't proposing you take it out, I quite liked it and just pointing it out in passing. I wouldn't worry about its "family friendliness" as kids wouldn't get the joke; it should stay in, I think. —Cliftonian (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Both men recognized that wars were changing markedly and the" you need "that" after and and before the
- " so during their joint scouting missions," you don't need "so"
- Perhaps change the semicolon between the last two snippets to a full stop (period).
- When did Baden-Powell write Aids to Scouting?
- Comment. It was published in 1899. I've now added references and publication dates to the BP books. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "thusly" Is this a word? Shouldn't it be "thus"?
- Done. I modified the sentence.
- We mention the BSA, but we don't make clear what this is. (This is particularly confusing because to some eyes "BSA" is more associated with the British South Africa Company, which is also mentioned in this article). Put Boy Scouts of America, with a wikilink.
- Comment. To make this less confusing, I've spelled out BSA a couple more times and added a couple of wikilinks. I've also avoided the use of BSAC for British South Africa Company in this article. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "and he called him a "wonderfully able scout"" Who called who? Make this clearer
- Done. I broke up the quotes into two sentences.
- "Burnham — Baden-Powell" This spaced emdash should be an endash, without a space.
- Done. Someone got to this before me. Thanks! Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Mount Baden-Powell in California," put a comma after "Baden-Powell"
- Why isn't Mount Burnham wikilinked?
- "and fought in World War I France" word missing here
- "and was United States Army's Soldier of the Year in 2003" shouldn't it be "the United States Army's"?
- Later in life
- Wasn't Ghana then called the Gold Coast?
- Shouldn't it be the Upper Volta?
- "In 1902–1904" → "Between 1902 and 1904"
- You shouldn't wikilink the names of modern countries like Kenya:
- Done. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Wasn't it Lake Rudolf rather than Lake Rudolph?
- "He was one of the original members of the first California State Parks Commission serving from 1927 to 1934" Shouldn't "serving from 1927 to 1934" be in brackets?
Off for now, I will come back for more, hope all this helps —Cliftonian (talk) 10:19, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- John, many thanks for the detailed and helpful comments and the generous investment of your time in reviewing this article. I'll get to work on your questions right away. Ctatkinson (talk) 13:41, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I haven't forgotten about this, don't worry, I will get back to it either later today or tomorrow. Well done on all the replies above! —Cliftonian (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added alt tags to all of the images. I think that does it for all of your comments, except for the tribal affiliations. Thank you for your insights on how we should address Native American issues. I work on this next. Ctatkinson (talk) 00:56, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- That below wasn't my comment. It was Montanabw (talk · contribs) (who forgot to sign his post; I've moved it up to prevent further confusion). Good work so far, I will have some spare time later today so I will have another look through and comment on the later sections. —Cliftonian (talk) 04:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Later life
- "an old friend from Africa"; while most would realise what you are actually saying, some could misunderstand and think Hammond was actually from SA/Rhodesia, which of course he wasn't. maybe reword to "an old friend from his time in Africa", or similar
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You have some numbers here over 10 written in long form ("eighteen", etc), which should be just as 18, 19 etc (unless they are at the start of a sentence). Look through for these
- "refused to make use of" → "refused to use"
- Do we know why Wilson didn't want Roosevelt's volunteers?
- Comment. I've added additional background to this piece and renamed the section: World War One.Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Personal life
- "Burnham died when he was 86 on September 1, 1947 of heart failure at his home in Santa Barbara, California." maybe "Burnham died of heart failure at the age of 86, on September 1, 1947 at his home in Santa, Barbara, California."
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "At a private ceremony he was buried at Three Rivers, California, near his old cattle ranch, La Cuesta." → "He was buried at a private ceremony at Three Rivers, California, near his old cattle ranch, La Cuesta."
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't think you need to give his first wife's full name again here; just "Blanche" is sufficient
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "in 19th century Rhodesia" maybe "1890s Rhodesia"; also don't think "for a time" is necessary here
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You don't need to say again who Roderick is
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "and the Montana cowboy "Pete" Ingram who survived the Shangani Patrol massacre along with Burnham" Maybe "and "Pete" Ingram, the Montana cowboy who had survived the Shangani Patrol massacre along with Burnham"
- "Nada (May 1894 – May 19, 1896), Burnham's daughter who was the first white child born in Bulawayo, died of fever and starvation during the Siege of Bulawayo" Maybe "Nada (May 1894 – May 19, 1896), Burnham's daughter, was the first white child born in Bulawayo; she died of fever and starvation during the town's siege."
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "She was buried three days later in the Pioneer Cemetery, plot No. 144, in Bulawayo, Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe)" Maybe "She was buried three days later in the town's Pioneer Cemetary, plot No. 144."
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "1897–Oct 3, 1905" space the endash here
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "His brother was in California the night Bruce died and yet Roderick knew from a dream exactly how it happened. The night of the drowning Roderick awoke screaming and rushed to tell his grandmother about his nightmare." Maybe "His brother, Roderick, was in California the night Bruce died, yet claimed to know from a dream exactly what had happened. Roderick awoke screaming and rushed to tell his grandmother about his nightmare."
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "As a teen" → "During his teenage years"
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "went to Africa" is Americocentric. To African readers he would be coming to Africa! Perhaps "moved to Africa"
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You don't need to say Johannesburg, South Africa, people know where Jo'burg is
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Howard went to Africa and became a mining engineer in the gold mines of Johannesburg, South Africa and later wrote a text book on Modern Mine Valuation." → "Howard moved to Africa, became a mining engineer in the Johannesburg gold mines, and later wrote a text book on Modern Mine Valuation".
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "His first cousin" Whose? Fred's, right?
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Film and stage accounts
- Have copyedited a bit here myself
- "The picture was shot on location in and around Bulawayo by RPM Film Studios." Need a ref for this.
- *Done Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have done a bit more copyediting earlier in the article as well. I think it is shaping up nicely now, well done. —Cliftonian (talk) 08:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need footnotes in the lead per MOS, so I have taken them out. I will try to do the imagemap for the picture later today —Cliftonian (talk) 08:45, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok the imagemap is in! —Cliftonian (talk) 09:54, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Way cool! It is much better than the long caption I had to include previously. Nicely done. Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for all of your review work and improvements. I need to take another look at the article tomorrow and see what I can do to work about a few small issues that we have introduced with these recent edits. Ctatkinson (talk) 04:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, I think that does it. Unless you see something else, I believe we are done. Ctatkinson (talk) 01:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
|
Image check - all OK (OTRS, PD-age, PD-USGov-USGS). Sources and authors provided. Just 1 request:
File:Burnham_nm_11may1941.jpg and File:RodFly.jpg - as most images in this article come from the same source via OTRS ticket #2013061810006694, those should be OK. However, could you get them tagged with OTRS-tags aswell (or alternatively add a publication date)?- All
other images from the Burnham family have either an OTRS-ticket or additional publication details - OK. GermanJoe (talk) 11:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for looking at the images, GermanJoe. I'll review the two you mentioned. Ctatkinson (talk) 00:29, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- OTRS ticket updated and the photos updated. PumpkinSky talk 02:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. 1) "Film and stage accounts" and "Tributes" are in an unnecessary and MoS-unrecommended bullet point list. Please rewrite to prose. 2) Add Queen's South Africa Medal and British South Africa Company Medal to infobox. 3) The article should respect WP:RED; there are no red links but I see some terms that should have them, i.e. Northern Territories (BSA) Exploration Company, Wa Syndicate or Mlimo. Please consider adding more to encourage creation of new articles. 4) "Assassination of Mlimo" section mentions a sacred cave and a village, can we add their respective names? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your excellent input, Piotrus. I've now addressed items 2 & 3. For item 4, although none of my sources provide names for the sacred cave or the nearby village, I did come across some additional information on the location -- not many miles from the Mangwe district. I've added this to the article and the a source reference. Tomorrow I'll work on item 1. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:50, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe I have now addressed the issues you raised. Thanks again for your help. Ctatkinson (talk) 17:26, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Closing comments This candidate has been here for a long time, but problems still remain and I will be archiving this in a few minutes. I see a mixture of dashes in the references, a template error with DeGroot, E. B. (July 1944), this odd looking citation Los Angeles Times 1900, p. I15 and inconsistencies in page ranges. These should have been fixed a long time ago. Graham Colm (talk) 07:54, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 22 September 2013 (UTC) [29].[reply]
- Nominator(s): Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 04:57, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe that it meets all the criteria for becoming a featured article. It received a peer review from WWB Too and an extensive copyedit from Baffle gab1978. It was listed as a good article back in February, and I have been working on it since. This is the first step in my attempt to get Navy's bowl games up to a featured topic. This is also my first time at FAC.
A short background: The 1924 Rose Bowl was the first time either of the participants, Washington and Navy, ever participated in a postseason game. It was a first for many things, including radio broadcasting. Washington was predicted to come out on top, but Navy led in nearly everything (except the score). It would be 30 years until Navy came back to bowl games, while Washington returned to the Rose Bowl in just two years. There are currently just 10 bowl games at featured article status, none of which are at least 15 years old. This article is on the short side compared to them, but since its been nearly 90 years since this occurred, info is pretty scarce. All comments appreciated.
Thanks, - Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 04:57, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments—focusing on citation formatting and sources at the moment only.
- Footnote 1: normal practice is that for newspapers that don't include their locations in their titles that the location is provided.
- The OCLC doesn't match up. The one provided is for a newspaper in Providence, Rhode Island, not the newspaper in San Diego.
- Location added and OCLC corrected.
- Footnote 2 is apparently using "96 Years" as a location, yet that isn't a location reference in the linked webpage. Also, the website appears to be named "College Football at Sports-Reference.com", not what it is credited as.
- Changed to "College Football at Sports-Reference.com", removed 96 years part.
- Footnote 4: the Detroit Free Press doesn't currently include "The" in its title. Apparently it has never used the article on its masthead.
- Well, this is from the edition that the article cited is in, and it uses "The Detroit Free Press" for its masthead, so I'm going to refrain from changing it for now.
- Footnote 10: International News Service is a newswire agency; it should be included, without the abbreviation, in
|agency= instead of |author=. This goes for the sources that credit the Associated Press (footnotes 13, 15 & 19). Also, footnote 10 should include a location.
- Changed author stuff for refs 10, 13, 15, and 19 to agency parameter. Also added location to ref 10.
- Footnote 11: like the Detroit Free Press, this paper also doesn't include "The" in its title. Also, the location should be included. Ditto footnote 24.
- Footnote 12: the publisher is linked here, but it's not the first mention of that publisher. If it's going to be linked, it should on the first mention.
- Fixed. Sorry about this one, when I first added the footnotes, current ref 12 was the first occurrence. I forgot to fix this after it changed.
- Footnote 16: the link to Images of America redirects to the publisher, and that name should be included in the
|series= parameter and not the title.
- Switched Images of America to series parameter.
- Footnote 19: can you verify if the title of the paper at that time was The Gazette? It appears that the print edition (linked from the OCLC) never used the city in its name, but the electronic edition (linked from the ISSN) did. At the worst, you have conflicting identification numbers in your citation.
- Corrected. It was The Gazette at the time. I messed up inputting the footnote. But it's fixed now, and Montreal is now added as the location.
- Footnotes 20 & 25: these should include
|format=PDF to indicate the format, as was done with footnote 14. Not all web browser can or will display the PDF icon with the links.
- Footnote 21: I would omit the
|at= information; the cited section is right up top on the cited link.
Turning to the specific sources used:
- All of the newspaper sources are good.
- The Sports-Reference citations, I will assume are ok. I will defer to others if necessary on the quality and reputation of the website.
- Footnote 16 is a book from a reputable publisher.
- The remainder are from various college- or Rose Bowl-related websites that also pass muster. It would be better to directly cite the book that is excerpted by the website in footnote 26, if possible.
All in all the sources are fine if the formatting glitches are cleared up. Imzadi 1979 → 06:43, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I have addressed all concerns above, save the Detroit Free Press issue, which might need further discussion. Thanks for the source and ref formatting check (although, just for the record, you forgot to include the book by John Charles Hibner [Ref 17] in the overview part above). Thanks again, - Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 19:35, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I was excited to review this one because we haven't had a good bowl game article come through here in a while, and I have fond memories of reading strong articles in this category in my early days as an FAC reviewer. Unfortunately, I found too many problems early in the article to ignore.
- In the infobox, note A 1 is causing Washington's record to not fully appear. I don't know if anyone else is having the same issue, but it is a problem for me.
- I don't know how to fix this. It's displaying fine for me.
Records in the infobox should have en dashes instead of hyphens.
Bold links are discouraged by the Manual of Style. For the link in the intro, it will need to be moved to later in the first paragraph.
- Moved the link to the end of the paragraph.
"which had first been played in 1902 but was replaced until 1916." As far as I know, it wasn't replaced by any other game; it just wasn't held during those years.
- I changed the sentence, and tried to explain it more.
En dash in "two-yard" should be a simple hyphen instead. A couple of other stray dashes need similar fixes in that paragraph.
- Changed the en-dashes to hyphens for all similar cases.
"before attempting a game-winning field goal. The field goal missed...". Try not to begin a sentence with something that appears in the conclusion of the prior sentence. Here you can use "The kick" as a substitute.
"For his performance in the game, Navy quarterback Ira McKee was named the game's most valuable player." The double use of "game" is a prose redundancy, and I can't see any need to have two of them. It should be easy to chop one.
- Removed the latter occurrence in the sentence.
The "team named desire" nickname should be explained somewhere, preferably in the body of the article. I just looked down there and saw nothing indicating why Navy was called that. I can imagine non-college football fans feeling completely lost right about now.
- I tried to give a short explanation of the nickname down in the aftermath section.
"with the Huskies winning three of the games." This is known as a noun plus -ing sentence structure, and is something that should be used infrequently in good prose. You could try the semi-colon plus "the Huskies won three of the games" as a fix.
- Changed to "times; the Huskies won three of the games"
Looking ahead to Washington: I see "Rose bowl", which is improper capitalization.
- Fixed the capitalization. I searched the page, and that was the only case of "Rose bowl" occurring.
I was surprised to find that the article was copy-edited before being brought to FAC. The lead didn't feel polished to me, and my impression is that the rest of the article needs another copy-edit. I just don't think that FA criterion 1a is met right now. I do hope that these issues are fixed and that the rest of the article is worked on because I'd like to see it succeed. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I have attempted to address the concerns you had above. I'm going to look back through the article and try to make additional copy-edits. I'm debating on whether or not to relist this at WP:GOCE/REQ, since the last time I listed it there it took a few months for someone to finally get to it. If you find more issues, I'll be happy to fix them. - Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 05:31, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I wouldn't relist this at the guild. If you want this to pass FAC, it will probably take too long for an interested editor to finish work, and you don't know if the copy-editing will be up to par. If you know a talented writer, I'd recommend asking them directly for copy-editing help. If no one else comments in the next couple of days, I'll put more comments up, but I don't want to find a bunch of issues at that time. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Navy: En dash needed in "Army-Navy Game".
Statistical summary: One word too many in "but missed the his only field goal attempt."
- Aftermath: Period needed at the end of the photo caption.
-
- I still don't see any punctuation there. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:16, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note 1: Another en dash is needed for the record. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:41, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments—As Awardgive mentions above, I reviewed this article earlier in the year, and I've been asked me to look it over again. I believe the article is carefully written and does an exemplary job of writing in detail about an issue for which sources are limited due to reasons of era, and it has improved since my last read. That said, I do have a number of recommendations and questions which should be addressed before I think this is ready, and I should add that my FAC experience is relatively limited, so I'll ultimately defer to others on whether this one should pass. For the record, I hope it does!
- Introduction
- Is a semi-colon the proper punctuation to place after "Washington Huskies" in the first sentence? I would typically think to use a comma here.
- Would it make sense to say, upon first reference to the stadium, "Rose Bowl stadium" to reduce the likelihood of confusion between the event and the building?
- Added the word stadium after first mention.
- I'd suggest commas around "nicknamed the 'team named desire'", as it's a subordinate clause.
- Should most valuable player be capitalized here? It is capitalized in Statistical summary below. Perhaps this is a generic mention of the type of recognition, and the one further into the article is a specific reference to the award. I don't know what's best here, but figured it was worth flagging.
- Team_selection#Navy
- "Navy were selected..." sounds like British English; shouldn't this be "Navy was selected..."?
- I think "...were eligible to be selected." could simply be "were eligible." considering the word "selected" was already used in this sentence.
- Team_selection#Washington
- "Washington were selected..." again seems like British English, and should be "Washington was selected..."
- Pre-game buildup
- The sentence about how a Navy fleet was called to service the day before the game seems to me like it might work a bit better as a clause separated by semi-colon from the previous sentence. This would join the cause-and-effect that the two sentences produce, and would solve the small problem that the first sentence alone doesn't explain why the schools' ticket-selling led to lower attendance.
- Combined with a semicolon.
- Game_summary#First_half
- Change "under 100–yards" to "under 100 yards"; no hyphen is needed, and anyway this is an en-dash.
- In fact, throughout this section, every construction describing the number of yards in a play uses an en-dash, though it should be a hyphen. Note, of course, this does not apply to the score by the end of the half, which should be an en-dash as it currently is. Also, "23–yards" should not include a hyphen, either.
- Corrected all cases I saw.
- Game_summary#Second_half
- Same issue with en-dashes where hyphens should be is found here.
- Fixed all hyphen issues I saw.
- Statistical_summary
- No en-dash or hyphen should appear in "175–yards", and "12–yard" should be a hyphen, not en-dash.
I'd be happy to look at this again after these suggestions have been addressed. Best, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 13:33, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I've addressed all of your concerns above. I'll be happy to fix anything else you point out. - Awardgive. Help out with Project Fillmore County 20:35, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry about the delay, but I read through your changes and compared with the live article, and all of my concerns are now addressed. Great work. I would support this article for FA status as I believe it meets all requirements. Best, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 15:35, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Closing comment -- This nom has remained open for six weeks without approaching consensus to promote, so I'll be archiving it shortly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
