User talk:Raul654

For your tireless work in making Wikipedia better, for keeping Template:Feature up-to-date, for doing the grunt work of cleaning up Wikipedia:Featured article candidates, for mediating in disputes, for adding lots of really nice pictures, and for still finding the time to work on articles! In a few months you've already become a highly valued member of the community. Stay with us and don't burn out, please. --Eloquence Apr 10, 2004

• Archive 1: August 2003 - November 2003
• Archive 2: December 2003 - March 2004
• Archive 3: April 2004 - July 2004
• Archive 4: August 2004 - November 2004
• Archive 5: December 2004 - March 2005
• Archive 6: April 2005 - July 2005
• Archive 7: August 2005 - November 2005
• Archive 8: December 2005 - March 2006
• Archive 9: April 2006 - July 2006
• Archive 10: August 2006 - November 2006
• Archive 11: December 2006 - February 2007
• Archive 12: March 2007 - May 2007
• Archive 13: June 2007 - August 2007
• Archive 14: September 2007 - December 2007
• Archive 15: January 2008 - March 2008
• Archive 16: April 2008 - June 2008

Intelligent Design

How can you say that the low odds of evolution and high odds that life starting before life on Earth is not related. Rael, wrote the book on "Intelligent Design" 30 years ago. Yet his material is absent on ID despite the scientific probability that it can occur. Humans are capable of seeding life on the moon and Mars right now if we wanted to. What has greater odds, we evolved in a unnatural rate, or that older life in the Universe seeded Earth? When you take the number of planets that previously, before Earth, evolved to a higher state than us, and then consider the low odds of life on other planets as this article points out, then you have something worth discussing and should be part of the ID site. It appears that a scientific approach to ID is impossible with squelcher's, and perhaps the site will continue in its embarrassing controversy (as it appears you want) because no intelligence is allowed in ID. Its bible, calling it a fraud (same thing), or the highway. ID is a scientific possibility. Let the possibility surface, and it is science not Bible think. Wiki is open ideas, not squelching them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7351428.stm Preceeding signed by: Bnaur Talk 15:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Featured List Director proposal

The proposal, for two directors at featured lists, is at Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates#Proposal; I've "volunteered" you to close the vote in two weeks :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough - I've added it to my watchlist. Ping me as the close-date approaches. Raul654 (talk) 00:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Will do (May 8). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Featured list director; to close at 16:00 UTC, May 8. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Reminder, almost there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Your threatening me with a block?

Okay, heres my issue with your threat. Your not supposed to block me because we're constantly involved in disputes. If you haven't noticed, I'm one of the more moderate ID believers on here. If you want to say I push a POV, just look at yourself. You and your friends are much more millitant than I am. I just want to know one thing. What did I say to push you over the top. Saksjn (talk) 19:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Slippery slope

Raul, a proposal to ban an editor from FAC has suddenly appeared at AN/I. Please see this and User talk:SandyGeorgia#ANI. I am not comfortable about this precipitous, slippery slope with an editor who hasn't been involved at FAC that long, raised a valid point on the Vargas Llosa FAC, removed his/her oppose when faced with disagreement from others, and has apologized to many editors. If the pattern persists, maybe, but ... this is too fast ... your call ... but I'm uncomfortable with this precedent. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:ANI#User:Ottava_Rima

Your input at this thread would be very welcome. I have proposed a partial restriction on this editor's participation at WP:FAC. Best wishes, Durova^Charge! 05:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

April 28 Dispatch

Invokes your name (who knew?) WP:FCDW/April 28, 2008. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I still remember the pencil sharpener DYK :) Raul654 (talk) 00:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Audiovideo

Hi Raul, I've taken my first stab at putting an audiovideo into an article, here. It seems to be acting funny though. The video is fine, but the audio only seems to work when I run VLC(Activex), and not when I run Cortado(Java). Any idea what the problem is, or how it can be fixed? Thanks.

P.S. I guess we're taking an extended break from the free music project. If you get a chance sometime to sketch out your thoughts about how to proceed with it (if at all), that would be much appreciated. Cheers.Ferrylodge (talk) 07:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, it seems to be fixed now. I played around with it and uploaded it again. Hopefully you didn't spend much time on this.  :-) BTW, too bad about NYB, who seems to have been the very best.Ferrylodge (talk) 16:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

misunderstanding

Dear Raul,

I'm afraid I may have misunderstood something. The ArbCom wrote, that admins may proceed

if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere ...

I have seen a lot of non-admins issuing warnings before, and I never imagined that it had to be an uninvolved admin who makes the warning. I had no intention to pose as admin, (which is absurd since most of these people know me), nor would I ever do such a loathsome thing.

• Are you sure it needs to be an uninvolved admin?
• How do we proceed now?

Your sincerely,

 — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 16:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

• Did you catch this msg?  — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 18:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Raul, are you willing to answer this?  — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 23:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

(1) If you want to invoke the arbcom 9/11 remedy, you must be an uninvolved admin. The arbitration committee decision makes this abundantly clear (Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict - Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/September_11_conspiracy_theories#Discretionary_sanctions) (2) While not an administrator, you refrain from trying to invoke them, ever again. Raul654 (talk) 02:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

FAR notification for Avatar: the Last Airbender

Avatar: The Last Airbender has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Collectonian (talk) 20:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Why Thylacine taken off FA list for 25 April 2008?

Hi Raul

I saw the Thylacine article on the FA page early on 24 April and thought "Excellent!". Went back to read it a few hours later and it was replaced with the ocean sunfish article. Why is that? I'm not complaining (really!), just wondering because I couldn't find any discussion on the decision. Cheers, Ossipewsk (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The article's primary author emailed me to let me know that that date was not a good one for him, and he would prefer another date Raul654 (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, thanks for letting me know. 25 April is ANZAC Day, so I can understand. --Ossipewsk (talk) 01:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Socks galore

Raul, there's a big mess of socks impacting Tony1 here at ANI, the next thread after that, and at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Tony1. Tony's probably asleep, but it keeps growing. Are you able to do anything? One of them is still unblocked, and um ... I don't really know what Tor is or how much it will take to get the socks back in the drawer. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep Stefan–Boltzmann law on your watchlist

Some anon wants to remove a statement about global warming on this page. This happens quite regularly but isn't an edit war. However, this page is not really being edited or watched by a lot of editors. I am the only one who has been reverting some anons who wanted to remove the reference to global warming over the last few months... Count Iblis (talk) 01:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Added. Raul654 (talk) 18:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Your thoughts

I would be appreciated if you would look over User:Vassyana/Problem_solving and give me your thoughts in return. I feel it is related to your essay on "Civil POV pushing". Thanks! Vassyana (talk) 05:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Replied on Vassyana's talk page. Raul654 (talk) 05:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Seldon.jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Seldon.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Ricky81682 (talk) 08:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Singer

I see it often repeated, however a blog is not a WP:RS source. So how do we verify the source presented? In a similar instance I have found on numerous pages and journals information about Theodor Landscheidt, while its repeated everywhere, William keeps removing the sources: [1] as not reliable. So I guess it is two fold, even though in both cases its easy to find people blogging about it, how do we find reliable sources? --I Write Stuff (talk) 18:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

So how do we verify the source presented? - You go to the library, and you get a copy of the journal issue that is cited there. Just because it's not on the internet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Raul654 (talk) 00:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Then that means the source presented is not accurate since there is no page number etc to verify. I am not sure why you would readd it barring its incomplete and there is no way to verify it, especially considering your only verification is a blog that it exists. --I Write Stuff (talk) 10:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Funny you should say that. I put a request in to my University's library yesterday. They got back to me this morning with a scanned copy of the letter in question. Singer does indeed say - point blank - he thinks martians built phobos. Raul654 (talk) 16:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you upload it please, it would be great if I can read it to verify. Especially since his belief as quoted in his book was suppose to be that *if* it was artificial, it would have been for ... So to see a document where he specifically states martians built it, would be interesting, and would allow the issue to be closed. --I Write Stuff (talk) 02:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Here - My conclusion there is, and here I back Shklovsky, that if the satellite is indeed spiraling inward as deduced from astronomical observation, then there is little alternative to the hypothesis that it is hollow and therefore martian made. Raul654 (talk) 03:39, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It goes on to state: "The big "if" lies in the astronomical observations; they may well be in error. Since they are based on several independent sets of measurements taken decades apart by different observers with different instruments, systematic errors may have influenced them." Do we know if the measurements were correct? I think since not only has the person stated they do not believe in Martians, or so its been reported, and if the measurements were incorrect, the point is in fact a red herring. If I removed all doubt that martians existed, leading you to accept only that reasoning, then told you all points I provided were lies ... it would be quite misleading to then state you believe in martians. --I Write Stuff (talk) 04:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

In any event I updated the article to reflect the full information, thank you for posting the article as you obviously did not have to. --I Write Stuff (talk) 04:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Anabolic steroid MP image

Hi Raul, would you object to using a tighter crop of Image:Depo-testosterone 200 mg ml.jpg on the Main Page? Best, Fvasconcellos (t·c) 23:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't object if someone (else) makes one. Raul654 (talk) 00:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, done. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 00:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

A decision at WP:ANI made use of User:Raul654/Civil POV pushing

Hello Raul. If you are curious about the use to which your work was put, search for your name in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive408#Disruptive Editing on Archaeoastronomy. The editor whose behavior was questioned seemed to appreciate the reference! EdJohnston (talk) 05:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. He was definitely not the audience I had in mind when starting that page. Raul654 (talk) 05:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

0 = -1

I had a professor in college that did this with algebra, and in less than ten steps. Left it on the board for years, and no one ever found the error. You gotta appreciate a guy that could do that with algebra, rather than calculus, haha. Your user page was interesting, just thought I'd share this little tidbit and say hi. Supertheman (talk) 11:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

All the algebra "proofs" I'm aware of have a hidden divide-by-0 somewhere. My proof doesn't - it has something far more... devious ;) Raul654 (talk) 16:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Where do I sign up?

User:Raul654/Civil_POV_pushing

Has anything official come out of this? I can think of two editors, maybe three, who I'd like to cite WP:CPP on. Speaking of WP:CPP, could I, should I put in a redirect with that title? WLU (talk) 20:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I wrote an email to the arbcom, suggesting in the homeopathy case that they use the remedy from the 9/11 attacks case, but incorporating one of the remedies suggested on the POV pushing page. See this.

Assuming it passes, I want to see how that plays out. Hopefully, it will santize the environment a bit. Raul654 (talk) 06:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Gentle reminder

I hope you won't mind if I nudge your memory, as we're now about a week away from the anniversary. Many thanks, --Dweller (talk) 07:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. Raul654 (talk) 16:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

That's kind. I can see from your contribs that changing the plan had a knock-on effect which caused you lots of work, so double thanks. --Dweller (talk) 10:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

May 12 TFA

Any chance you could move Super Smash Bros. Melee to May 13, since it has no relevant date in the article itself associated with May 12, and add the WP:FA Battlefield Earth (film) to May 12, because it will be 8 years to the day since the film was released? Here is a sample blurb, it got bumped off of WP:TFA/R for a discussion about a different article on a different date, and ChrisO (talk · contribs) never got a chance to add it back. Cirt (talk) 15:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. Raul654 (talk) 16:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Poll underway re policy change

In case you're not already aware of it, a poll is currently underway at Wikipedia talk:Good articles for a policy change to place a GA symbol akin to FA star on the GA header. JGHowes ^talk - 15:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Replied there. Raul654 (talk) 16:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Please consider joining the working group for the WMF DC Chapter

Please consider joining the working group for the WMF DC chapter. Since we have a very active and very community oriented DC/MD/VA area group of Wikipedians, it only makes sense to develop it as a chapter, especially given the recent changes to the Board of Trustees structure, giving chapters more of a vote. Hopefully we will be either the first or the second officially recognized US Chapter (WMF Pennsylvania is pending as well), and hopefully our efforts will benefit WMF Penn as well. Remember, it's a working group, and this is a wiki, so feel free to offer changes, make bold changes to the group, and discuss on the talk page! I hope to see you there, as well as Wikimeetup DC 4 if you're attending. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 16:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

MilHist FA problem

Raul, since you're a MilHist guy, there's a problem with a split to one of TomStar81's MilHist FAs, see User talk:SandyGeorgia#FA split. And, an IP removing articlehistory. I don't know if an admin should put the pieces back together, or if it comes to FAR, and if so which piece, since it's not clear now which article carries the star. It looks like (?) a unilateral split, because TomStar81 has been busy at school. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what Esemono (talk · contribs) did, I don't know where the article went, I don't know how to get it back, but a featured article is gone. (That oughta sum up why I'm not an admin.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Copyright question

Hi Raul, I saw with alarm that User:APRCooper had raised copyright questions today at Talk:Discovery Expedition about a map I uploaded from NASA and altered. I feel responsible. I saw the reference to Antarctic Digital Database (ADD) on the NASA map as clutter and did not realize that the ADD wasn't something that belonged to NASA. APRCooper in his latest note to you on the Discovery talk page says he'd be "quite happy if a note was placed in the Wikipedia meta-data for the map. NOAA observed the conditions; the person who re-used the map didn't." I think he means on the Commons where the licensing information lives, and I certainly don't mind adding something like "based on information from the Antarctic Digital Database." On the other hand, I know little about copyright law, and I don't want to somehow make things worse. Can you advise? Finetooth (talk) 23:13, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Replied there. Raul654 (talk) 01:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Retraction

As suggested by Oren0, I've edited the comment I made on the discussion page. bjquinn (talk)

Minor query

Hello there. I see that Super Smash Bros. Melee has been scheduled for May 14 and have realised, after checking the "Main page requests", that this wasn't requested. I know that articles don't have to be requested for them to be allocated a date, so as a matter of interest, I was just wondering how it came to be chosen, and for what reasons. I've looked on the Requests page, but it doesn't really explain the rationale or processes for articles that haven't been requested. This is just a matter of curiosity, but I'm really pleased with the decision as the major contributor of the article. Thanks, Raul. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 21:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

All non-requests are chosen by me. As for why, I can't really explain it - some combination of the fact that it's a very popular game, we haven't had a video game article in several weeks, it's different from the previous ones we've featured, etc. Raul654 (talk) 04:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 15:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

New Project

Myself and several other editors have been compiling a list of very active editors who would likely be available to help new editors in the event they have questions or concerns. As the list grew and the table became more detailed, it was determined that the best way to complete the table was to ask each potential candidate to fill in their own information, if they so desire. This list is sorted geographically in order to provide a better estimate as to whether the listed editor is likely to be active.

If you consider yourself a very active Wikipedian who is willing to help newcomers, please either complete your information in the table or add your entry. If you do not want to be on the list, either remove your name or just disregard this message and your entry will be removed within 48 hours. The table can be found at User:Useight/Highly Active, as it has yet to have been moved into the Wikipedia namespace. Thank you for your help. Useight (talk) 05:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:ITN/C

There was absolutely no consensus to add the Kentucky Derby to ITN. Why did you add it? -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 16:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

See below. Raul654 (talk) 16:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Kentucky Derby on ITN

Hi Raul- can you explain why you have added this item to the ITN template [2] without participating in the discussion on the sugestions page, and indeed when there was a) consensus not to add it in that discusssion; b) it does not appear anywhere on the putative listing of ITN-able sporting events on Wikipedia:Sports on ITN? Did you check the discussion first, and could you maybe check in and give your reasoning? (I presume purely for turnover- the problem is, making these kinds of unilateral decisions for turnover shatters pre-existing consensus and precedents and invariably leads to large amounts of internecine grumbling down the line). Badgerpatrol (talk) 16:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• I added it because ITN was absurdly stale, with the same picture for the last 2 weeks and some news items even older than that. The derby item was suggested by Spencer on the candidates page (and although he withdrew it, I still considered it a valid suggestion). Raul654 (talk) 16:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

So you unilaterally considered it a valid suggestion, without adding to the discussion or attempting to build consensus- indeed you ignored the existing consensus completely. Either being an admin is "no big deal", or there are two classes of Wikipedians- admins and the rest. I really don't think you should have done this. There is a discussion, there was a consensus, and you ignored and neglected to participate. (I do agree that ITN was stale, there are other, better stories with consensus that haven't gone up, and if you are willing as an admin to participate in the discussion and update the template in line with consensus, so much the better and I hope to see you around on the candidates page). Badgerpatrol (talk) 17:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• • • Demanding that everyone "add to discussion" and "build consensus" are two of the biggest reasons that ITN wasn't updated for 2 straight weeks. Raul654 (talk) 18:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

...and are perhaps the two most important bulwarks of Wikipedia. Bottom line: you put this story up because you fancied it and you had the power to do so. Don't abuse the power that you have. As noted below, there were other stories with more support that could have gone up (London mayor, food crisis, elections, Austrian kidnapping, American cult, etc etc). There should be an organised cadre of ITN admins and there should be a defined or loosely defined rotation schedule of stories. But at present, there isn't. Next time, drop a note, wait an hour or two to see how people feel, and then do it. Admins are designated as admins by the community specifically because they are trusted not to use the power that they have arbitrarily. Not much harm done this time because you were quickly reverted and you (commendably) didn't get in to a wheel war. But please don't do it again. Badgerpatrol (talk) 08:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have a distorted view of how things work. There is no obligation that people read and chat on the talk pages before going ahead and making edits, especially when the template in question is embarrassingly out of date. Raul654 (talk) 15:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

There is an obligation not to override consensus. There is an obligation for admins not to abuse the additional powers that they have relative to "ordinary" editors. This matter is settled, your change was quickly reverted and rightly so. Please don't be so arrogant again. Badgerpatrol (talk) 15:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's see - you come here on my talk page to ruleslayer the fact that I didn't use the talk page before updating the weeks-old news on ITN. Then, at the same time people are talking about reforming the broken ITN process, you hypocritically bemoan the lack of involved administrators. I think I've identified one of the biggest problems of ITN - perhaps you should go look in a mirror to see what it is. Raul654 (talk) 16:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm not going to respond to that sillyness, except to say that I see no hypocrisy whatsoever. The whole point of my input on this talk page is to point out that you did not involve yourself in ITN. You seem to admit yourself that you didn't even read the suggestions page before going ahead and putting up a couple of stories that you personally fancied. The Kentucky Derby story in particular had no consensus, for a variety of reasons, and should not have gone up. Putting it up is spitting in the face of all those who do involve themselves in the ITN process - essentially stating that their opinion doesn't matter, will probably be ignored, and you are going to do what you want anyway. Your edit was quickly reverted and rightly so. Badgerpatrol (talk) 16:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Badgerpatrol, I agree with Raul. This is a "not seeing the forest for the trees" situation. The ITN section of the main page needed to be updated. The Kentucky Derby article was newsworthy and logical choice, especially with the sad loss of the filly. I honestly think that most people would expect that type of story on the main page at least for part of the day or part of the day after. To start with any criteria that excludes the Kentucky Derby is odd. But the uniqueness of events made this a solid addition. Timeliness and unusualness of event need to plan a strong part in these updates, I think. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem is with the way ITN is currently organised, where stories are basically selected. If the KD is notable, then many, many, many sporting events are going to be filling up ITN. And why not? We can't very well say "no" if someone wants to put the world canoeing championships up after an event like this (which I imagine is significant in the US but is ignored in the rest of the world) goes up. So either ITN gets filled up with sports stories, or we don't put them up and the ITN talk pages get filled up with disgruntled sports fans wanting to know why the tiddlywinks world cup has been ignored. (And that principle applies generally, not just to sport). Nobody disagrees with your point that that ITN was very stale and needed updating- but there were other stories that were closer to consensus that could have gone up. The fact is, Raul put this story up because he liked it, he didn't care what anybody else had to say (in fact it had zero support and had been withdrawn by the nominator), and because he, as an admin, could, and the other 90% of us can't. That's a bit worrying and a bit naughty. Admins are not !voted in to office so that they can rule over the rest of us according to their personal caprice. However, there's no harm done, I mean no offence to him, he made a mistake, it was reverted, and he didn't do it again. All is good. Badgerpatrol (talk) 16:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

(ec reply to Badger) Please do do it again, if ITN again suffers paralysis by analysis, resulting in a stale mainpage. I don't pay that much attention to the main page, but I went to bed Saturday night wondering why that stale image had remained there for so long, and woke up Sunday morning to see it still there. At least someone did something, and if that's what it takes to get the "regulars" at ITN to realize they might be paralyzed by "consensus", great. So someone (strangely) didn't want us to know about Big Brown and Eight Belles, fine; at least Raul did something which got the page moving. Badgerpatrol, consider that there might be a real message in Raul's action: this is partly why I stop several other places before I come to Wiki each day. The news and the image was stale; Raul did something about it. Good on him; I hope the message endures. Keep the main page interesting and current, or expect others to act. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an admin and I have no power to alter the main page. If I did, I would have updated ITN in line with the accepted criteria and in line with the discussion on the candidates page- in line with process. Ironically, in this case the problem is not with process but with lack of adherence to process (I know that phrases like "adherence to process" are like a red rag to a bull sometimes round here, but another general phrase for "adhering to process" could be "respecting the opinion of others"). But- ITN is not a news ticker. It's not supposed to be a source of news, it's a gateway into the encyclopaedia. In fact (as I have argued elsewhere) I think ITN is broken as it is and that we should turn it in to a straight news service (linked from wikinews or wherever) and then all these (recurring) problems instantly disappear. A lot of people think that's what it is anyway- I say they have the right idea. Badgerpatrol (talk) 16:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

As long as you all realize the page was stale, and Raul's action got it moving, Raul Did A Good Deed. If Raul let the TFA be governed by teh same sort of "paralysis by analysis", we'd have quite a mess on the main page, so consider that he's not just any uninformed admin who saw a problem and took action. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. As long as we have an ITN section, IAR and BOLD should be used when it becomes embarrassingly stale. It strikes me that even DYK is better organised yet just, without wishing to cause anyone at DYK offence, a bit of fun. Process overhaul required. Until then, be bold. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with WP:BOLD (although I despise the oft invoked IAR- that is a policy that should almost never be invoked and yet we see it all the time- it should be the last ditch "nuclear option", not an everyday ocurrence. "Ignore all rules" does not mean "do what you like"). The point is not that Raul updated the template with a story that had a mediocre consensus which he then boldly judged to be enough -the point is that he put up a story that no-one but him wanted to see on ITN when there were other, better stories. There was no "paralysis by analysis"; Raul's intervention was timely- but it was the wrong intervention. Admins cannot just go around ignoring everone else and doing whatever they want. The update was not wrong- the story was wrong, and not at least reading the candidate's page first was very wrong. I agree that a process overhaul is desperately required- until that happens, we should at least attempt to make the process that we already have actually work, otherwise we have chaos and confusion. If people stuck to it, it would work. If people ignore it, then it won't. Badgerpatrol (talk) 17:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe, just maybe, the people who "run" ITN are completely out of touch because they can't understand why readers might care when the number two horse at the Derby died on the track. I mean, I'd much rather see every airline crash that ever happened anywhere in the world, and Hugo Chávez's mug a dozen more times: why allow for any variety, after all? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Nobody "runs" ITN, which is part of the problem. We should perhaps consider a dedicated ITN overseer just as Raul is for the FAC process. To be honest, the story was just a bad one. Horses die on the track all the time (often several die or are destroyed during the Grand National meeting, for example) I don't think that confers any additional notability and it wasn't mentioned in the update anyway. (But apart from that- you're right, ITN is crap, it doesn't work and we should get rid of it completely and replace it with something else. But until we do, we can't just have one man picking his favourite stories and everyone else talking into thin air.) Badgerpatrol (talk) 17:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Yea, it's not about the horse. It's about a problem that Raul (and many others) saw, and when he actually did something to get things moving, instead of thanking him, a whole lot of people came over here to criticize him as if he had done it for some strange abusive reason, rather than acknowledging that there's a problem. He does know a thing or two about the mainpage, 'ya know? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[UNINDENT] But it's not his personal fiefdom and it's a little patronising for you to imply that it is. Nobody has any problem with what he did - it's the way that he did it. Wikipedia is a collaborative project, not the Zimbardo Prison Experiment. It's not arranged as admins dictating to the plebs and nor should it be. The fact that so many people complained- instantly - should in itself tell you that something went a bit wrong. I'm not having a huge go at Raul, the matter is done and dusted and I'm sure his intentions were perfectly sound - but what he did in effect was basically to ignore and belittle the opinions of those who are involved in the ITN process and who do contribute and try and make it better. His intentions were sound but if he had taken another 30 seconds care to select a more suitable story then people probably would have been stopping by to thank him. Wikipedia is a project with tens of thousands of contributors, each of whom matter. The success of this endeavour depends on consensus and mutual consideration. Nobody is more important than anybody else, and no-one should pretend that they are. Badgerpatrol (talk) 18:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that a lot of people complained tells me that ... people like to complain :-) It goes around a lot more than thanks. And seriously, if you knew of some of my pet peeves, you wouldn't be trying to have a conversation with me about perceived admin abuse; I can write that book. This wasn't it. Anyway, peace out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

ITN/C

Please check WP:ITN/C before adding items that have no consensus like the Kentucky Derby. We will only add horse races if there is a triple crown winner. Thank you for being a drive by admin and we'd all appreciate it if you could revert your addition. -- Grant.Alpaugh 16:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad someone had the good sense to get that utterly stale image off the main page, and add some worthy, missing and appropriate current news. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

And in the processs, wildly shattering a consensus that has been in the building for some time. Badgerpatrol (talk) 17:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Pointing to ITN's dysfunctional process, and claiming that its glacial speed is being upset by such radical ideas as having timely news items, is not an argument that is going to sway many people. Raul654 (talk) 18:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

A dysfunctional process is still better then no process at all. There was no concensus, and I don't think one admin's opinion will change that. And why those two? The London Mayor story had more support. --PlasmaTwa2 23:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Village pump post

FYI: [3] (I thought you were traveling?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I got back this morning, tired and slightly sunburned :) Raul654 (talk) 17:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds nice :-) Hint: Laser brain ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. Raul654 (talk) 18:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Rosalind Picard

Thanks. You save me from getting an automated 3RR warning from the POV pushers. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 01:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I added back in the bit about her identifying as a Christian, even though it doesn't justify her signing the petition. I figure, what's the worst that that information can do, as long as the aSDFD part is kept in to explain it's purpose. *moulton flashbacks* Baegis (talk) 02:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the addition. I'm chatting with Krimpet in IRC, and she was confused as to why that part was being removed. (It's partly my fault. That addition got caught in the revert-war cross-fire of the ID petition removal) Raul654 (talk) 02:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

We got Moulton indeffed because of these attempted additions. I did not know it was an admin doing it, but what does that matter? Adding whitewashing is just not appropriate. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 02:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Apparently your conversation with Krimpet failed. He/she placed an AN/I about this situation. Hrfan is well-known for editing ID related articles, including this one, and I thought he should be aware of it. I'm done here. I honestly could care less about Picard. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 02:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm talking with her in IRC about it. Raul654 (talk) 02:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Something else

Is this appropriate? I don't misuse the tool. I mostly use it to remove vandalism. And I do not violate any Wikipedia rules regarding its use. Can you help? OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 02:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:Boston quiz.doc listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Boston quiz.doc, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? RichardΩ612 Ɣ |ɸ 14:04, May 5, 2008 (UTC) 14:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

May 5 Dispatch

Wikipedia:FCDW/May 5, 2008, Featured content at schools and universities. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks good! Raul654 (talk) 18:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Now Tony's in there, too; frightful to see what results when Tony and Jbmurray combine their talents on one page !! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Raul, where would Natalee Holloway go at WP:FA? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I suppose we need a new category, "Missing white girls" :)

On a more serious note "Law" (if it ever goes to trial) or "History" (the catch-all) would seem to be the best fits. Raul654 (talk) 18:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

No, let's refine it better to assure a category of one: "White girls missing from Palm Beach, Aruba in 2005". I was guessing Culture and society; I hope you're watching where I put things :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, finally found the one I was looking for: Murder of James Bulger. Was in Law, now at WP:FFA, so seems like Law. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

See also: Missing white woman syndrome Raul654 (talk) 19:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

LewRockwell.com - my mistake!

Thanks for the link, it helped. The linked article doesn't deny the existence of AIDS, which is all I thought the cat meant, but I dug deeper and subsequently found the Wikipedia article AIDS denialism and now see that the use of this term, to label questioning of the medically accepted link between HIV and AIDS, is independently supported. I wasn't at all familiar with the current published discussion on this topic. My mistake! Gwen Gale (talk) 22:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh. I'm starting to understand the Wikipedia context too: I had not a clue things had heated up here. Cheers. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Incase you did not see

Incase you have seen that User talk:140.122.225.112 and User talk:81.237.202.149 are both of the same Tor network and are WP:NOP. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I just saw enough to suggest that you know this already. Good luck sorting it all out. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Onions, parks, and tor :)

not so nice when you are on the other end of things is it :) *smoochies* take care hun :-* 88.191.80.227 (talk) 01:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: El Señor Presidente

(copied over from my talk page:) I haven't got to speak to my students (who have mostly dispersed for the summer), though I found it fabulous, once I realized that the day started at 5pm not 4pm my day, heh. In fact, around midnight I was with some friends, after some beverages had been consumed, and one of them got out a guitar, and started making up a song about Wikipedia to celebrate; we all joined in with various bits of percussion. Heh. Anyhow, many thanks for all your encouragement. Oh, and I was on the phone with a report for AFP earlier on today, so something may come out of that, I don't know... --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 05:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Picard

Was your removal of my comments here intentional? If so, no problem. But I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a mistake. Guettarda (talk) 15:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Oops - no. That should have given me an edit conflict when I clicked save but it didn't (2nd time that has happened in the last 24 hours) Raul654 (talk) 15:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you around on irc? :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 17:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm walking out the door right after I write this, so whatever it is will have to wait. Raul654 (talk) 17:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Civil POV pushing

Imho, this could be a great topic for NTWW, if you're interested. Dorftrottel (warn) 15:43, May 7, 2008

Namecheck in an AN thread

I seem to have given four people, including a current arbitrator, a former arbitrator, and a steward, a public ticking off. <looks worried> So I thought I'd better let each of you know about it. See here. Thread is here. Apologies in advance if this irks you, but I feel strongly about how some of these threads end up poking fun at individuals. Carcharoth (talk) 16:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Replied on his talk page Raul654 (talk) 01:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

How can you delete your wikipedia search history?

I happened to read your rule #6 about organized corporate astroturfing campaigns and then immediately came across this, thought you might be interested in further evidence to bolster your prediction. On the same topic, here's a case from earlier this year of a charity engaging in astroturfing. (Though not on WP.) --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 18:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

There's no question that corporate astroturing has occurred - it's just a question of when. The first page you linked to has no date, and the latter is from 2008. Raul654 (talk) 00:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I apologize, I'm not sure if you understood me - I totally agree with you that corporate astroturfing not only occurs but is probably rampant and I congratulate you on your accurate prediction about Wikipedia back then, I just thought you might find those links interesting. And actually, as someone who has been involved in purchases of advertising in a couple of different parts of the IT journalism industry, I can testify that a pay-for-play type of astroturfing occurs in the "reliable" media as well, which you're probably already aware of. --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 13:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Request for change of intro

Hello Raul. I have just stated on the talk page of Battlefield Earth (film), which will be on the MP in a few days, that I would like to see a sentence removed from the intro. Do you agree with this, and if yes, could you change the Main Page text? Cheers, Face 19:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I oppose the removal of this sentence, and think that the blurb is fine. This was gone over in quite detail through the review process, most recent of which was the WP:FAC discussion. To this day the film doesn't have too great of a rating at Rotten Tomatoes, not to mention that it is listed prominently on multiple "worst of..." lists. Cirt (talk) 19:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Cirt - just about everyone puts "Battlefield Earth" on their worst-movies-ever-made lists. It belongs in the blurb and article. It is also an objective fact that the movie was a financial failure. Raul654 (talk) 00:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Planning for the 7th Wikipedia Meetup

The planning for the summer Philadelphia meetup has begun. We would appreciate your input.
You're getting this invitation because you're on Wikipedia:WikiProject Philadelphia/Philadelphia meet-up invite list. BrownBot (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Replied there. Raul654 (talk) 00:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Attack page

Here OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Uber previously had 3 "hit lists" and they were speedily deleted as attack pages. Why that one was not (Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:UBeR/interesting edits) I do not understand. Raul654 (talk) 00:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I've seen other attack pages deleted by administrative fiat. Why does he get the benefit of the doubt? No matter what you say about my level of civility, I never stoop to that level. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Super AIDS

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Super AIDS, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Vassyana (talk) 02:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

In the absence of prodding, I will nominate it for AfD. There's a lot inaccurate and wrong about the article. See the talk page. Vassyana (talk) 02:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Your claim (that only one person was infected) is false, and everything in the article is true. See the talk page. Raul654 (talk) 02:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for jumping the gun. A combination of sensationalist title, sensational claims contrary to the sources (notably the one you removed) and the provided sources only mentioning one case that responded to treatment set off alarm bells for me. Vassyana (talk) 03:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Quick question about wikipedia policies

Hello, I am kind of new to wikipedia and I have some confusion about the wikipedia policies and guidelines. First, I noticed that the policy page, which is apparently the Bible of how one should edit and act on wikipedia, can be edited by anyone. The page says that the guidelines are a mixture of policies created by Jimmy Wales and others, but also some were added by editor consensus. So I guess I have these questions:

1) I notice the standards for an admin blocking someone, are far looser then the WP:Policies, which tend to be rigid. So I guess my question is, how much authority do the WP:Policies have, especially since they can be edited by anyone? The confusion is driven furthur one of the policies states to break the rules if it betters wikipedia. Does this mean I don't have to strictly obey the policies? Does this mean I can edit the policy page itself? 2) Is there perhaps a list of policies created by Jimmy Wales and other heads of wikipedia that exist before community edit of the WP: Policy page? This would be really helpful. 3) Are all of the editor-created policies approved by the founders and higher-ups of the Wikipedia Foundation? 4) Does every new edit of the WP: Policy page become the official policy of wikipedia? In other words, something that is approved by the founders and people running the Wikipedia Foundation? --Jtd00123 (talk) 09:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit: Nevermind. I think I know the answers now. --Jtd00123 (talk) 10:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Main page FAs

Hi Raul. I saw the whole Israel semi-protection thing being discussed on AN. I also believe you have a short list of FAs that will never see the main page. Perhaps it might be worth refraining from putting Featured Articles that are already under permanent semi-protection (e.g. Israel, Islam and the like) on the main page (in effect, adding them to this short list)? Considering we have a policy, penned chiefly by yourself that says "don't protect main page Featured Articles", this would seem logical. I believe we have plenty of featured articles spare, so this wouldn't cuase any shortages. What do you think? Neıl ☎ 13:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandal wants to be blocked

I've been having problems with a vandal at John Coleman (news weathercaster) with a vandal who has expressed hostility to Wikipedia and a desire to be blocked. User talk:Wotring3. Could you oblige him? JQ (talk) 20:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• Raul564, I have also been having a revert skirmish with an unregistered user at the article Michael Strank -- this user insists on inserting a rarely used nickname for Strank in the lead (I have no problem with the nickname, but it is out of place in the lead, I think), and keeps inserting a sentence or two detailing his own personal views of the widely used term "friendly fire" in the section which details Strank's death. I have asked that he not continue to insert his POV in the article, but he continues to do so. I do not wish to take this any higher, and know that you are an admin (or at least a well-respected military editor). Could we officially ask this clown to knock it off? For the moment, I am not going to revert his insertions in order for you to see them. Sincerely. Sir Rhosis (talk) 04:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

• Raul, me again. Regarding the Michael Strank article; it appears the anon user has registered and has reentered the nickname "The Marines' Marine." As I explained to the user when I reverted, the spot where he entered the name was the incorrect place for it. He reverted my revert with a "source" for the name. I have no problem with the nickname (though I doubt that it was ever used to Strank's face -- Bradley's book simply has an elderly marine comrade refer to Strank by those words in passing). Could you tell this new user that there is a perfectly acceptable place (under the photo) to enter commonly used nicknames for a person? Tired of this, as I'm sure you are as well. Sir Rhosis (talk) 02:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Andre Kertesz and main page request:

Hey Raul! A while back you said that you'd put Andre Kertesz on the main page for July 2 for me if I couldn't find a free space to request it. I've been checking up for a month now to get in, but it's been locked up for ages. I'm trying to get away from Wikipedia, but this issue keeps on bringing me back. I'll take you up on your offer for the sake of my sanity because I just want to be able to get away from the site. I've left the formatting below. Cheers, Spawn Man (talk) 00:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

André Kertész (July 2, 1894 – September 28, 1985) born Andor Kertész, was a Hungarian-born photographer distinguished by his photographic composition and by his early efforts in developing the photo essay. In the early years of his lengthy career, his then-unorthodox camera angles, and his unwillingness to compromise his personal photographic style, prevented his work from gaining wider recognition. Even towards the end of his life, Kertész did not feel he had gained worldwide recognition. The first photographer to have an exposition devoted to his work, he is recognized as one of the seminal figures of photojournalism, if not photography as a whole. Dedicated by his family to work as a stock broker, Kertész was an autodidact and his early work was mostly published in magazines. This would continue until much later in his life when he ceased to accept commissions. He served briefly in WWI and began to form dreams to move to Paris, which he realised in 1925, against the wishes of his family. There he was involved with the artistic melting pot of immigrates and the dadaist movement, and achieved critical and commercial success. The imminent threat of WWII pushed him to immigrate again to the United States, where he had a more difficult life and needed to rebuild his reputation through commissioned work. He would take offense with several editors that he felt did not recognize his work. In the 1940s and '50s he stopped working for magazines and began to achieve greater international success. Despite the numerous and awards he collected over the years, he still felt unrecognized, a sentiment which did not change even into his death. His career is general divided into four periods based on where his work was most prominent at these times. They are called the Hungarian period, the French period, the American period and, towards the end of his life, the International period. (more...)

CAMERA lobbying

I've already made one brief statement on the matter, but if you want my views here they are:

A set of people saw what they viewed as some pretty intensely POV writing on Israeli-Palestinian articles, and tried to (very ineffectually) organize themselves to fix that problem; apparently one of the tactics they planned to use was to add material to articles from academic sources (not just websites), and then get people sanctioned when they deleted it. From what I can tell they managed to get almost nothing done. Nevertheless, their ideological opponents were able to make a great deal of political hay out of the matter: EI's spin was accepted as fact, and a witch-hunt ensued, along with some pretty hysterical rhetoric, and various other panicky responses, many amusing or sad depending on your perspective (the ritual marking of any article mentioned on the list was a particularly absurd touch). And, on a personal note, several editors have since rather idiotically tried to use it to troll and smear me, conveniently ignoring the fact that the group itself apparently specifically stated I shouldn't be informed about its existence, as I was too loyal to Wikipedia and wouldn't have approved.

Meanwhile, a similar group, "Wikipedians for Palestine", existed openly for over two years,[4] and was even advertised on Wikipedia.[5] [6] [7] This group was much smarter, though - they insisted that to become a member you had to prove you were "pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist" by making an on-Wikipedia edit first, and, as a result, they were never really exposed. Anyway, once the CAMERA list became public, and people started noting that the "Wikipedians for Palestine" had been around for a long time, some damage control became necessary; the "Wikipedians for Palestine" board first put up a justification insisting that they were completely different from the CAMERA group, using various spurious arguments - that they had low message traffic, that they were "explicitly committed to NPOV", and most amusingly, that "the existence of this group has never been hidden". Right, just the membership was hidden, and, of course, the contents of their postings. They then deleted all messages from 2008, and followed it up by deleting the group altogether. One wonders, if there was nothing wrong with their "never hidden" "explicitly committed to NPOV" existence, why they would bother doing so.

In any event, it will be interesting to see how much more political capital people are able to get from this; they've been milking it for all its worth, but there don't appear to be any new revelations to expose, or editors to ban. Perhaps they can keep the dream alive via the ArbCom case, but I suspect some new Wikipedia scandale du jour will soon come along to tittilate the masses. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

FWIW I think this time you have a fair point, Jayjg. Clearly there is a widespread view that WP is strongly pro Zionist and a widespread view the opposite way. Both sides perceive themselves as NPOV fighting bias. Clearly we don't know what the Pro-Palestine group did. However I cannot see much evidence that either group was effective (nor of the various other attempts made to subvert WP over time being effective anywhere). The only thing which looked like a serious breach of faith was the suggestion that the Pro-Zionist group should quietly work elsewhere and get to be admins before they started attacking the articles as a Cabal. I cannot see any evidence the PP group did this, and generally I think language and other barriers might make this harder. The PZ group haven't had time to do this yet. The obvious PP editors seem to be far more single purpose in general, to their and our deteriment --BozMo talk 09:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, we know the pro-Israel group was ineffective. However, we have no idea if the "pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist" group was effective or not. There were over 20 of them, and they've operated with impunity for two years - there's no way of telling which regular Wikipedia editors were part of the group, and what they collectively succeeded in doing. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

In the Very Good News department ...

... look at this gem :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:TFA/R

There have been several detailed replies from editors regarding the proposed changes to the page. For your sake and others, I would suggest you look it over here. Noble Story (talk) 15:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

FACs for you

Raul, I'm e-mailing you about some FACs that you might want to look at and close yourself. Please let me know if you'd rather I close them. Best regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Follow up, there have been a lot of changes on these FACs in the last few days, but I'd still like to ask you to handle Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Preity Zinta (I strongly defended the article when it had what I thought was an unfair Good Article Review, and probably have a COI), and Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hillary Rodham Clinton, where the 1e issues need to be sorted. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

And, there's an oversight concern. Blnguyen says he'll agree if another oversighter agrees. User talk:SandyGeorgia#link delete SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Raul, please see the query at User talk:SandyGeorgia#Hey. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Raul, I responded on my talk about these two, and you might want to look at Roman Catholic Church as well; it's a challenge. Congratulations !! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Climate change denial

Hi Raul,

I would like to add a section to climate change denial--can you tell me how to get permission to edit that page?

I think it is crucial that the article address a suit filed against several petrochemical corporations in February by prominent attorneys Steve Susman, Steve Berman et al. From the June 08 Atlantic Monthly:

"...the suit also accuses eight of the firms (American Electric Power, BP America, Chevron, ConocoPhillips, Duke Energy, Exxonmobil, Peabody Energy, and Southern Company) of conspiring to cover up the threat of man-made climate change, in much the same way the tobacco industry tried to conceal the risks of smoking--by using a series of think tanks and other organizations to falsely sow public doubt in an emerging scientific consensus" (Faris, Stephan. "Conspiracy Theory, p32–4).

Other important citations include CNN and New York Times.

Thanks,

Cyrusc (talk) 19:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Update: the article is now semiprotected, so I am good to go.Cyrusc (talk) 20:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Featured article for May 15

Raul, on this page, am I right in thinking there's been a bit of, ahem, freelance for the May 15 Featured Article? I'd revert it myself, but I thought these templates were normally full-protected? Sofia is not an FA anyway. — BillC ^talk 22:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Definitely freelance :-) Raul will most likely get to it soon, but you could revert it yourself if you want. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I reverted it, pretty obvious as the article is currently rated as B-class. Cirt (talk) 22:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I notice the anon has put a picture caption... normally i wouldn't bud into conversations, but that did spark some interest in me... have image captions for the templates been discussed before?? -- SmthManly / ^ManlyTalk / ^{ManlyContribs} 00:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

(Glad to see you back, SmthManly). Yes, it was freelance, and it got reverted. I'm not sure what you mean by 'captions for templates'. I don't do image captions for main page images (except as alt-text), and no, it's never been discussed before. Raul654 (talk) 22:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I meant for the template in which the actual featured article goes... i guess poor choice of words, sorry :-). I figured it might've been discussed but gave it a try anyway, and I actually never noticed the alt-text. Thanks for the welcome, I'm more active now that I've resolved a lot of personal problems, but I dunno exactly what to do in terms of activity. I guess I'll just keep editing away at my regular articles. -- SmthManly / ^ManlyTalk / ^{ManlyContribs} 22:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It could be related to WP:Accessibility, where Rick Block has pointed out we need captions on all images. Since I've never seen or used a screen reader, I'm not really understanding, but that could be it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

FA category

Paul Nobuo Tatsuguchi, physician in the Japanese Army. Would that go under Bio/medicine or Warfare (and how do you decide in cases like this)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I avoid deciding until the articles are promoted - it saves me from arguing about hypothetical possibilities :)

When you exclude the lead/references/external links, it looks like most of that article is about Tatsuguchi's experiences on Attu. Therefore, I think it should go in warfare more than medicine. Raul654 (talk) 22:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, but I keep a checklist based on when they appear at FAC, so I have less to sort out later (when my brain is dealing with all those tabs open at once :-) Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry

Went away for a little while with open screen and pressed save.SorryJohn Z (talk)

Mail

U have.--Filll (talk) 15:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Nguyen Ngoc Tho TFA

Was that nominated by anyone or was it fortuitously noticed? I didn't even notice that it was his 100th birthday this year. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I noticed :) Raul654 (talk) 11:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I've noticed someone else has a 100th birthday this year. Hopefully, the article will clear FAC in time, but there's still a lot to do. --Dweller (talk) 14:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thought you'd wanna see

this. If you haven't already. --Dweller (talk) 14:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Replied there. I think Gimmetrow is right - it makes sense to indef move-protect featured articles. I'd bet 99% (or more) of FA moves are vandalism. Raul654 (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Idea

Not sure exactly where to float this idea, so am asking a Bureaucrat. There are many articles that are created in an incomplete form, and quite a few of those get CSD'd. The main cause would seem to be new editors who don't know about personal sandboxes. Therefore I'd like to suggest that new user accounts that are created should automatically have a sandbox created with the new account, along with general hints on how to use it. Mjroots (talk) 15:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

This question would be properly addressed to developers, although it's still too under-developed to be of much use to them. And chances are good that they will never act on it even if you do flesh it out more.

Alternatively, it could be incorporated into the welcome messages that people tend to put on their talk pages. Raul654 (talk) 17:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

RFAR Undertow

Yes, but see this. I read that as meaning no current case is required but that one might be opened if UT wants his sysop back. Thatcher 21:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, ok, I missed that part. All right, go ahead and remove the RFAR then. Raul654 (talk) 21:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Today's feature text (Elagabalus )

The short version of Elagabalus on the main page contains an error. Search for "his his" (it's in the second sentence). RJFJR (talk) 00:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I finally found the lead so I could fix it. RJFJR (talk) 00:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Your thoughts?

I'm wondering if this fellow is our old friend, or just a garden-variety POV warrior. I think the latter is more likely but would appreciate your opinion. Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Checked him 4 days ago, but found nothing untoward. Raul654 (talk) 05:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I just caught a whole drawer full of socks. See my contribs. Raul654 (talk) 06:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

More of your thoughts?

This person reminds me of this person. Everything from the writing style, to the tendentious editing at AIDS denialism to staying on the talk space of the article to misinterpreting scientific method to being a SPA. Just a paranoid thought with all of the craziness around here these past couple of days. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 05:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see much evidence of a match here. Raul654 (talk) 06:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Hoteltravel

Hi, that user is caught up in a rangeblock of yours, and could use your help. Thanks,  Sandstein  17:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

ping... just bumping this up to your attention. Yeah, more SciBaby collateral damage. Perhaps you could use our new IPexempt tag to let this guy off the hook? Your call... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

IPexempt tag? Raul654 (talk) 06:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

More to the point -- the block only affects anons. He should be unaffected. Raul654 (talk) 06:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

In case you didn't know about the ipexempt tag : Wikipedia:IP block exemption. (I couldn't work out whether you knew about it or not). Woody (talk) 13:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Review of the topic ban

Hi Raul, I asked a Review of your topic ban on Thomas Basboll here.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 18:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

And I've requested a response from you there. I was not pleased to see the clarifications thread stonewalled and only get the input of one arbitrator. At the very least, I think you should have said something at the clarifications thread, which is why I'm asking, with all due respect, that you say something at the ANI thread. As I've said with others, I am happy to drop things once there has been a reasonable response, but no response at all is not good. Carcharoth (talk) 19:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom has looked at this matter and decided that things were done correctly. Everything that needed to be said was said at the original WP:AE discussion. If you have a problem with that, Pokipsy76 and Carcharoth, I suggest you take it up with ArbCom and stop hounding Raul654. Jehochman ^Talk 20:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

One arbitrator has agreed with Raul. No other arbitrators commented on the thread other than to recuse. Another has (commenting in general) passed appeals on topic bans back to the wider admin community (or possibly to AE - it was unclear). I said above: "As I've said with others, I am happy to drop things once there has been a reasonable response, but no response at all is not good." Basboll conducted himself with dignity during his ban and appeal and subsequent retirement, and he was rudely rebuffed at every turn. All I'm asking is that Raul and others show people respect when they show them the door, and respond to reasonable requests from editors in good standing for some sort of response and not just go silent. It is not acceptable for one person to serve a ban, and then go quiet and let others do the defending. If Raul responds, I will happily drop this and do something more productive, but I shouldn't even have to say that. I shouldn't have to plead for some sort of response. Do you see now why silence is the most corrosive response? Silence leaves people in limbo, and leaves those watching wondering what is really happening. I don't get involved with every ANI thread or AE thread. I stayed quiet on this one for a long time, but my disquiet has grown as I've seen people rebuffed and stonewalled at every turn, and left in limbo by silence or little response. How much clearer can I make myself? Carcharoth (talk) 23:06, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Could you please comment in the thread at AN/I? An uninvolved administrator has requested that you address the concerns in the thread there, and while I agree that the multiple discussions amounts to forum-shopping, it would be nice to put this to bed once and for all. Horologium (talk) 02:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Replied there. Raul654 (talk) 06:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Parallel computing

Hi Raul, Thank you for you interest in my naive questions to the article about Parallel computing. Please look once more at the picture describing ideal speedup and runtime Image:Parallelization diagram.svg. The line for speedup is ok, but runtime can not be below zero even in the ideal situation. kuszi (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC).

Shoot! You're right. It should be an asymptote which approaches some constant value (0 for the ideal case, greater than zero for the non-ideal case). Raul654 (talk) 05:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. Raul654 (talk) 04:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

bwahahaha

You got carded for buying a root beer float. Priceless. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 03:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that was very amusing. I'm glad there were witnesses, because otherwise I don't think anyone would believe it. :) Raul654 (talk) 05:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

May 19 Dispatch

It hasn't gotten a lot of input, is still a bit ill-defined in scope even after input from several editors, and you may be able to review/check some of the content in terms of history (for example, I don't know who started GA). Wikipedia:FCDW/May 19, 2008 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

re: misunderstanding

Please see #misunderstanding above.  — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 23:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

NYC Meetup: June 1, 2008

New York City Meetup Next: Sunday June 1st, Columbia University area Last: 3/16/2008

In the afternoon, we will hold a session dedicated to meta:Wikimedia New York City activities, elect a board of directors, and hold salon-style group discussions on Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia projects (see the last meeting's minutes).

We'll also review our recent Wikipedia Takes Manhattan event, and make preparations for our exciting successor Wiki Week bonanza, being planned with Columbia University students for September or October.

In the evening, we'll share dinner and chat at a local restaurant, and (weather permitting) hold a late-night astronomy event at Columbia's telescopes.

You can add or remove your name from the New York City Meetups invite list at Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Invite list.

Also, check out our regional US Wikimedia chapters blog Wiki Northeast (and we're open to guest posts).
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 00:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Donald Bradman and WP:SIZE

I'm preparing Bradman's biography for a run at FAC. I'm concerned re WP:SIZE. For good reasons, the guideline is a little vague on absolute limits and I'm wondering whether >100Kb is excusable for a man whose every action and utterance was so notable over such a very long period (c.60 years). I've already hacked loads of lesser material out into daughter articles and while I'm sure I could trim a little more, I begin to feel I couldn't excise more without severely damaging comprehensiveness. Your (and Sandy's) thoughts at this stage would be instructive and timely. Thanks, --Dweller (talk) 11:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree it's a bit on the long side, but I've never been one to get particularly upset over an article being long (that is, too informative). If you exclude the references and only count the readable text, it's not out of the ballpark. Raul654 (talk) 04:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Lies

Plese don't repeat the Discovery Institute's lies. The statement says it is about "darwinianism". That's what was signed. They did not sign a statement about "evolution". That is just another lie from DI. WAS 4.250 (talk) 00:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Mainpage

An advert tag has been added to Elderly Instruments. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

This seems to happen often when we feature (on the main page) articles on medium or small sized businesses - they attract johnny-come-latelies who erroneously claim the article is not notable, biased, etc. I'd prefer not to repeat this discussion every time one gets featured on the main page, but short of not featuring them on the main page (which would be like burning down the house to roast the pig) I cannot think of one. Raul654 (talk) 04:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

And it seems to happen to the good faith, diligent editors like Laser brain and Mike Searson. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Laser brain has acknowledged that some parts of the article should be removed, others need to be reworked. I remark some ridiculous accusations from time to time on today's featured article, but here I think that some points are founded. Raul654, I really appreciate your work and FA writer's work, but sadly, I think that this article was not ready for the Main Page. Cenarium (talk) 18:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm off all afternoon, but am really troubled to see how good faith FA writers are treated by mainpage naysayers, who don't accurately engage policy or guidelines ... sad stuff. Perhaps it's time for a Dispatch discussing mainpage day or mainpage selection, to lessen the chances that good faith editors like Laser brain and Mike Searson (who work so hard) will have to have their day marred like this again. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It was brought up on main page's talk page, but (unlike the article) a lot of people respond there. See Talk:Main_Page#Elderly_Instruments. The discussion was far more positive. Raul654 (talk) 17:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, Laser brain has appreciated the critics 1, 2, 3. Just for your information, it's the first time I am involved in a dispute over today's featured article, I'm not exactly a "mainpage naysayer". Cenarium (talk) 17:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sock

Do you think User:Sirwells is another Scibaby sock? Newbie, recently editing in the same area, same POV and abusive attitude and talks a long term story with lots of WP knowledge? --BozMo talk 09:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe so. Raul654 (talk) 15:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. --BozMo talk 17:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Atlas shrugged cover.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Atlas shrugged cover.jpg. You've indicated that the image meets Wikipedia's criteria for non-free content, but there is no explanation of why it meets those criteria. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. If you have any questions, please post them at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions.

Thank you for your cooperation. NOTE: once you correct this, please remove the tag from the image's page. STBotI (talk) 11:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Basboll case

Hi Raul. I wondered if you could help me with regard to your topic ban of User:Thomas Basboll. I have been asked for advice myself and thought I would approach you in the first instance. As far as I understand it, we had this followed by this. At the point where the latter was archived, three admins were raising questions about your action there. As it was then archived without a definite conclusion being reached, I wonder what the best way forward would be? Certainly I do not see on the face of it from that one diff provided, that a topic ban was called for, although of course I remain open to being convinced by evidence of further misdemeanors on the user's part. As I mentioned in the AN/I discussion, you may not be seen by some as a neutral person in this area given your involvement in, for example, indefinitely blocking a user in January with the edit summary "Conspiracy theory POV pushing". I appreciate that your actions throughout have been taken with the interests of the encyclopedia at heart, but I think we need to be careful to preserve not just fairness but the appearance of fairness here. Best wishes, and thanks in advance for any help you can give. --John (talk) 14:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thomas appealed to the arbitrators - and they agree with the ban. Pokispy then appealed to AE - and more admins than not agreed with the ban. Now he's on your talk page. I've just about had my fill with Pokipsy's forum shopping, which seems to be just about all he does these days. (Notice he has not made a single constructive edit in several weeks)

Yes, I did indefinitely block someone from a 9/11 article for making this edit (and two others like it) four months before I banned Thomas Basobol. I just could have easily specified vandalism - the result is the same. That does not make me an involved admin. In fact, in the homeopathy case the arbitration committee is currently hearing, at my suggestion they specifically defined what being involved is to exclude that. (It says, in short, that an involved admin is someone who has a current, personal dispute with the person in question)

The end result is -- Thomas Basobol remains banned until the arbitration committee sees fit to reverse their previous decision to uphold my ban. Raul654 (talk) 16:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

As the admin who set Pokipsy's topic ban, I have been keeping an eye on his edits and have been growing more concerned with his behavior. See here. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Raul, for your prompt response. Raymond, while I see where you are coming from, I don't see Pokipsy's support of Thomas's appeal as disruptive; he has merely tried to follow the process as best he can. As I say, there were significant questions raised about the ban during the AN/I discussion, and I wonder now how best to take the matter forward. On a general note, the procedure for placing and appealing such bans may need to be clarified as I was not able myself to see unambiguously how to progress the matter, and I have been around for a while. Thanks, both. --John (talk) 20:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

You say there were significant issues. That does not make it so. The procedure is to appeal to the arbcom, which Thomas did. It was rejected. That's the end of the issue as far as Wikipedia dispute resolution process is concerned. Further attempts to invent new avenues of appeal are very quickly wearing down the patience of everyone involved. Raul654 (talk) 21:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't speak for "everyone involved" as you apparently can, but it is certainly frustrating to me to see a good faith editor treated the way Thomas has been. As I mentioned, it might be an idea to improve both the documentation of the process and the process itself, while of course bearing in mind WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. --John (talk) 21:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I would have hoped what I just said was self evident, but if you insist, I suppose we can create a guideline along the lines of Wikipedia:Don't make up new avenues of appeal because you don't like the outcome of all the previous ones. It seems a bit wordy to me though. Raul654 (talk) 21:17, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and as for how he's been treated -- I really don't have much sympathy for POV pushers, no matter how civil they are. Raul654 (talk) 21:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Nice one, thanks for the laugh. Fact is though, as I understand it, Thomas was placed on his topic ban (which in the absence of any duration set is presumably indefinite?) by an editor who has a documented record of partisan involvement in issues related to his ban, then advised to take it to Arbcom, given a lukewarm response there falling short of outright rejection by a decent quorum of arbs, then advised to take it to AN/I where issues were raised which certainly seemed significant ones to me and two other admins, and then the thread was archived without a resolution being reached. Please tell me if I have substantially misunderstood the process followed; it was pretty hard to figure all the steps because of the lack of any documentation describing such appeals (or maybe I was just being dim and it does exist?). If this understanding is substantially correct, it is certainly not my ideal model of a fair and transparent appeal process. What do you think yourself? --John (talk) 21:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Your understanding is incorrect in a number of ways. (1) I was not involved in the dispute, (2) his reception by the arbcom was not lukewarm. All of the arbitrators rejected his appeal and either agreed with the ban or expressed no opinion, (3) The ANI has failed to raise a single substantial issue, and (4) it was archived per standard procedure. However, following that archiving Pokispy, per his established tactic of making up new avenues to appeal by choosing the venue he feels he'll get the best reception in, then went to your talk page. Raul654 (talk) 00:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Today's featured article

What with 3 recent "Today's featured article"s, critical of Scientology, it seems to me that there is an abnormally high percentage of such articles, with no positive stories to date as far as I am aware which seems to make a mockery of Wikipedia's POV stance. Maybe I'm wrong - hope so. Johnalexwood (talk) 16:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The articles featured on the main page compiled with all of Wikipedia's policies, including our policy of neutrality. Raul654 (talk) 16:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

• So then, by definition, however many articles featured that are critical of the Church, there should be as many that are in support of it? Johnalexwood (talk) 18:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Whatever gave you that idea? ➪HiDrNick! 18:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
• Well then, instead of being POV, balanced, fair, unbiased or any other way you want to say it, "Today's featured article" actually is used surreptitiously to attack or support whichever group, political view or opinion is favoured or disliked, as appropriate, by the "Today's featured article" WP editor, by choice of the articles featured.Johnalexwood (talk) 18:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
  • People write the articles they want to. If you want "positive" articles about the church of Scientology on the main page, why don't you go ahead and improve them to FA status? Raul654 (talk) 00:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Elderly Instruments protection

Hi Raul, per my comments toward the end of this ANI thread, I was wondering if you might consider unprotecting the Featured Article for the last few hours of its run on the main page. There definitely was some disruption going on there so I can see why you took that approach, but I think it could be dealt with without full protection (when unprotecting, you could include a stern note explaining that further drive-by tagging of the article as an advert will be met with blocks). After reading the whole article talk page, it seems to me that there are some concerns that don't have much merit but others that do. Some improvements seem to have been made and the article creator was discussing some of the good faith concerns with other editors. I don't think the level of disruption was sufficient enough to justify putting a halt to editing via full protection. Obviously improvements can still be made tomorrow, but there's probably more energy to work on it while the article is on the main page. Anyhow just a suggestion, I'm certainly not going to unprotect it myself.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

All right - per your suggestion, I've unprotected. However, if there is a resumption of advert tagging, I'm going to block the offenders and may reprotect the article. Raul654 (talk) 19:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good, I'll watchlist it and keep an eye out as well.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) And within 5 minutes, it's being tagged again. I've blocked the offender, but I suspect unprotection is not going to work. Raul654 (talk) 19:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The article should be semi-protected in the worse case, but definitely not full-protected. If advert tags are placed by reputable editors, then I would strongly suggest asking them not to do so on their talk page first and then also mentioning that they bring any concerns they may have to the article's talk page, instead. Gary King (talk) 19:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Reputable users or not, they are disrupting a main page featured article with behavior they should know better than to practice. Raul654 (talk) 19:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's give it a bit of time. If there's really a flurry of advert tagging then re-protection would be fine. I don't know that that will happen though. If it happens a couple of times, a 24 hour block for whoever does it is completely appropriate.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

(e.c.) The user who added the tag was a SPA and intended to be disruptive. I agree that it would be a bad idea, even for a reputable editor, to tag the article, a fair amount of editors are already working on this, it would serve nothing but to flame the situation. Cenarium (talk) 20:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I made that suggestion because some editors may not be aware of the current discussions about the article, and a mere note on their talk page will probably be more helpful than a 24-hour block. Gary King (talk) 20:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It looks like things have settled down somewhat, but we need to do something to be better prepared for next time. Typically it's editors who have never engaged the FAC process, and often don't appear to know Wiki policies and guidelines, the FA criteria, policies or guidelines, or even the difference between FAC and FAR, who disrupt the mainpage and attack good faith editors every time we run a company or a product. Fortunately, the last two times have involved editors who are so steady and solid that it doesn't seem to shake them (Mike and Laser), but what an unpleasant experience it must be to be faced with the kinds of accusations that are on the article talk page (seems like a real lack of AGF all 'round) after doing the research and hard work needed to produce an FA. Can we write a Dispatch dealing with this, so we'll have something prepared next time the mainpage runs (as it should) a company or a product? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Think Laser or Mike or someone else with experience in this area would feel up to it? Raul654 (talk) 00:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if one of them could write it alone; it would need to be joint effort. We've had pending for a while that we need to cover 1) what to expect on main page day (like some of the info in Giano's essay), 2) how TFA is chosen, and now 3) this issue that happens each time a business or product is TFA. Is covering all of that in one too much? Bigtimepeace is right that we need something preemptive so a good faith editor has canned answers and doesn't have to be exposed to this again. Laser brain has taken a break, and that is a big loss to FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Bit of a drive by comment here, but I happened across this issue on ANI and have now been commenting on the talk page. I fully agree that there were a number of very bad faith accusations from folks who don't know much about how the FA process works (I'm no expert myself). That's not acceptable and preparing for these kind of responses as Sandy suggests makes a lot of sense. However I don't want it to be lost that there were some problems with this article to begin with. Those folks suggesting that it should not have passed FA have a legitimate point (which is not to say they are necessarily right). Some significant improvements have been made, particularly with respect to wording, and other issues are being discussed on talk. Basically I agree with what Sandy is saying, but don't want what occurred while the article was on the main page to be chalked up only to bad faith, personal attacks, and a lack of understanding of the FA process. There were legitimate comments and edits as well, and the article is probably better now than before it went live on the main page. Anyhow, for what it's worth.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 01:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

That can be said of many articles after their mainpage appearance; the lack of good faith displayed in this case was malinformed, appalling and disheartening. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to intervene again, but I was about to make a statement similar to Bigtimepeace's. Editors like D Monack (talk · contribs), Varano (talk · contribs), Face zz (talk · contribs), Tombomp (talk · contribs) , User A1 (talk · contribs), Madcoverboy (talk · contribs), Lampman (talk · contribs), B (talk · contribs), Gwen Gale (talk · contribs), iridescent (talk · contribs) and Edison (talk · contribs) are not the ones who "disrupt the mainpage and attack good faith editors every time we run a company or a product". The article is undeniably good, but serious concerns have been raised, and you cannot wipe them out just because it's TFA. Cenarium (talk) 02:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Sandy I fully agree with you about the lack of good faith, I'm just saying not everyone who commented there should be associated with that. That's my only point.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 02:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

But sadly, I think that we can't do much about that. It will always be people who will make bad faith assumptions or frivolous accusations around TFA, or DYK, or ITN. (For example, I heard recently of USA-biased DYKs, of ITNs devoted to catastrophism, etc.) Cenarium (talk) 02:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Question

Hi Raul654, I just saw that you edited a few minutes ago. Will you be online for the next few minutes? Acalamari 22:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, for at least the next several minutes. Raul654 (talk) 22:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

In that case, can you please close Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Aitias 2? It's two hours overdue, at 71%, and I've been looking for a bureaucrat who is online to close it. I remember you said a few months ago that if anyone needed anything bureaucratic being done, we could ask you. Thank you. Acalamari 22:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. Unfortunately, there was not a consensus to promote. Raul654 (talk) 22:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand: thanks for closing it. Acalamari 22:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Archive of subpage

Hiya, I hope you don't mind, but I took the liberty of archiving some older threads at User talk:Raul654/Civil POV pushing. It had gotten over 250K and was starting to get difficult to read. --Elonka 16:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't object. Raul654 (talk) 18:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

FAC followup

Resummarizing here from User talk:Raul654#FACs for you and User talk:SandyGeorgia#Schedule

Clinton has been at FAC for more than two months, already restarted after a lot of initial issues were sorted. It has 10 Supports plus 2 significant contributor Supports (was nommed by a non-contributor). It has 3 Opposes that deal mostly with prose and flow, and 9 additional Opposes on 1e only.

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Preity Zinta

Zinta has 8 Supports plus 3 Contributor Supports, and 3 Opposes. I don't find the opposes convincing, but I supported the article at Good article review, and have probably become too close to the article.

The three RCC FACs have been hard to keep focused on WP:WIAFA, with every oppose extensively debated and reviewers stating frustration or that they've given up. The article has improved significantly during the FACs; a fresh set of eyes (yours :-) may help sort things out. It's very hard to read (even though I constantly correct the threading and formatting to keep it on track), but a restart may frustrate everyone. I think it currently has 9 Supports and 6 opposes (POV, stability and sourcing); one Supporter is an interesting new account.

It's unfair to drop the lengthy and difficult ones on you, but I'd be happy for you to deal with all three of these. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll deal with these tonight. Raul654 (talk) 18:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks; I've already been through today, so we won't edit conflit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I promoted Preity Zinta and archived the Hilary nom. Regarding her article, given that her candidacy is very likely going to end in the next few weeks, I think that should take care of any residual stability concerns. The RCC one is tough - lots and lots of commentary, many of the objections resolved, some not. I'm going to leave it as it is for now, but I think a restart might be in order -- it could definitely benefit from more time on the FAC. Raul654 (talk) 01:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll see how it does over the next few days; I'm flying on Wednesday, but should have computer access all day Friday. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Umm, Raul, I was in the middle of some comments on Zinta - is this really not able to remain on the table for a few more days? Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 01:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Question: if RCC is restarted, do we re-vote/re-comment on the newly restarted page or do our previous votes/comments remain valid? --RelHistBuff (talk) 06:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Typically, a restart means a clean slate, a new FAC, and !votes and actionable items still unaddressed must be re-entered on the new page. Because the three RCC FACs have been so exhausting to everyone involved, and hard to keep focused on addressing opposes per WP:WIAFA, I'm entertaining the idea of doing a different kind of restart. I'm keeping an eye on it and depending on how it goes, we may need to reboot for a clean slate, to sort out what work remains, but I'm hoping to avoid doing that in a way that will just result in all that text being re-typed and debated again. I'm aware of how frustrated the reviewers are, and that most have just stopped reviewing, but progress has been made, so we've got to keep our eye on the ball and try to re-focus on what work remains. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello Raul, I am the nominator for the Roman Catholic Church FAC. There are currently 12 votes of support from 11 very veteran and respected editors and one new - and 6 oppose. The comments left for us by the opposes have all been addressed by making changes in the text or by providing Wikipedia policy or consensus to refute. The issues that opposers wanted us to change that we did not change and why are listed below:

1. Capitalization of the word "Church" issue - opposer Andrew c asked us to lowercase all mentions of "Church" even when it was being used as a substitute for saying "Roman Catholic Church" over and over throughout the article. A poll we conducted on the RCC talk page eventually went to the MoS page where Wikipedia policy on the issue was vague. Wikipedia community was in the process of making a decision on this issue. We decided that we would change the text to reflect the community decision but would leave it alone until such decision had been made. See this comment by DanK on FAC page [8]
2. Use of the book "The Catholic Church Throughout the Ages" by John Vidmar - opposer RelHistBuff did not want us to use this book at all stating that it was not a scholarly work and that John Vidmar was not a history professor. Although much discussion ensued on this issue, the facts revealed that Mr. Vidmar is a very respected history professor who has taught church history at three different Catholic universities and the Smithsonian Institute. His book was reviewed by a fellow scholar Thomas Bokenkotter in the academic journal Catholic Historical Review. Since no one could come up with any evidence that the book was not a scholarly work, no bad reviews, no statements of errors and we had three good reviews including the scholarly Bokenkotter one, we did not eliminate use of this book since it provided us with one of our three apologist church history works that were used in equal balance with three critic sources. I performed an analysis of our sources that is documented on the FAC page that reveals how we paid special attention to use of sources by all major viewpoints to avoid being labeled pro or anti Catholic. This analysis is here [9]. Sensititve areas of Church history like Inquisitions, Crusades, Reformation, WWII, provide references to both apologist and critic sources with quotes included from each source. Eliminating Vidmar would have eliminated a very important apologist source for us. Ealdgyth did an analysis of the Vidmar citations used in the article and provided us with a minor list of comments on the article talk page - all of which we answered satisfactorily - and none of which revealed anything improper in using his book. See this documented at subsection entitled Vidmar here: [10]

1. Slavery - Relata Refero asked us to include statements in the article text that were not found in any of our scholarly sources and for which no papal bull or other substantial church document could be provided to back up his assertions. The Church did not create or institute African slavery, it was an institution long before Europeans arrived and I have this information from one of my scholarly sources by Koschorke, a documentary sourcebook. We have text in the article that states that some believe the Church did not do enough to stop it.
2. move Origin and Mission section - opposer Karanacs wants us to move Origin and Mission stating that it duplicates material elsewhere in the article. Please see the article, it is not a duplication and there is consensus of editors to keep it where it is. Complete discussion of Karanacs comments are here [11] - as of this writing, one editor has posted his an another editor's previous agreement with Karanacs on this issue and two have posted in my favor - Lingnut and Johnbod. I have noted that per Wikipedia policy WP:Silence and consensus, the significant lack of any discussion or requests by the vast majority of editors on the article through three FACs including this one and two peer reviews and months of talk page discussion proves that most editors have long been OK with the current format. Three editors does not make a consensus in this situation, even when just considering this FAC.
3. Nine comments - by opposer Tony (mainly punctuation or wording improvements) were answered by making changes to the text or in one instance providing direction to where he could find the content he desired that was already in the article text.
4. opposer SummerWithMorons did not leave any comments for us to address but only chastised us for using religious rhetoric and not using scholarly sources - opposer did not elaborate on which of our sources he considered not scholarly - please see that our sources meet WP:RS and the top qualifications as suggested by WP:Reliable_source_examples.NancyHeise (talk) 00:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Video files

Hi, Raul654. I've uploaded few video files. They all play fine yet while some of them Image:Bears fight 11.wmv.OGG show the picture in the thumnail, the others do not Image:Great white shark and cage diving 2.wmv.OGG. May I please ask you, if you know what I'm doing wrong? Thank you for your time.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

RfA close?

You might want to take a look at Ktr101's RfA. I've already !voted in this one, but in the course of looking at the RfA, it looks like this candidate is really just looking for some sort of quick editor review. In fact, his nom statement just talks about criticism, not being an admin. Considering it also is fits WP:SNOW and WP:NOTNOW, maybe a quick close would be in order. Just thought I'd give a crat a heads up. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 19:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Update, just closed by an admin. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 19:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:TFAR

A user wants me to change the date for my Jurassic Park nomination. Should I? Limetolime ^{talk to me • look what I did!} 23:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Meta-FA discussions

An off-topic meta-FA discussion has sprung up at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Peter Wall which you might be interested in. Does George Washington (inventor) hold the records as far as you know? Carcharoth (talk) 21:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, shortest time elapsed between article creation and FA status is not a statistic I keep track of :)

Having read your comment on that FAC nom -- I do not believe the George Washington article was given any special treatment. It was promoted just as any other article would have been. So yes, I would have to agree with you that it's the record holder. (Also, FYI, the promotion point is the moment it's added to Wikipedia:Featured articles, which is the definitive list.) Raul654 (talk) 22:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)