Wikipedia:Education noticeboard

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Purpose of this page Using this page This page is for discussion related to student assignments and the Wikipedia Education Program. Please feel free to post, whether you're from a class, a potential class, or if you're a Wikipedia editor. Topics for this board might include: Content issues created by real or potential student assignments Improving student assignment output quality per the RfC Questions about the trainings or any question from instructors or students Discussion of the Wiki Education Foundation or the Wikipedia Education Program. Students who have done great work and need {{The Excellent New Editor's Barnstar}} Of course, we should remain civil towards all participants and assume good faith. There are other pages more appropriate for dealing with certain specific issues: An issue requiring immediate administrator attention → Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents Vandalism by non-participating students from schools → administrator intervention against vandalism. Cut-and-paste moves/history merge → the cut-and-paste move repair holding pen. Students revealing sensitive personal information → requests for oversight. Please DO NOT make such requests here; reports here are visible to everyone. Course announcements from dashboard.wikiedu.org / outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org → /Wiki Ed course submissions Issues related to dashboard.wikedu.org / outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org → meta:Talk:Programs & Events Dashboard For a list of topics that students should avoid editing → Wikipedia:General sanctions#Active sanctions "Start a new discussion thread". Use an informative title: ==Informative title==. If a thread is related to an ongoing discussion, consider placing it under a level-3 heading within that existing discussion. You should generally notify any user who is the subject of a discussion. You may use {{ping}} to do so, or simply link their username when you post your comment. It is not required to contact students when their edits are only being discussed in the context of a class-wide problem. If no comments have been made within 30 days, your post and any responses will be automatically archived. Please sign all contributions, using four tilde characters "~~~~". If discussion is already ongoing elsewhere or if there is a more natural location for a discussion, please continue the discussion there, and put a short note with a link to the relevant location on this page. If you cannot edit this page because it is protected, please place your comments on this page and they will be addressed. Managing threads If you'd like to make sure a thread does not get archived automatically after 30 days, use {{Do not archive until}} at the top of the section. Use {{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveNow}} within a section to have it archived (more or less) immediately. A brief Archives page lists them with the years in which those now inactive discussions took place.
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Role of this noticeboard

Hi all, I really appreciate everyone participating in discussions here - it seems like the new noticeboard really fills a needed role and will enhance participation and transparency. However, I've noticed that there are two different types of discussion occurring here - general criticism of the education program, with broad, potentially disruptive suggestions for improvement, and reports of specific incidents requiring urgent attention. I originally imagined this board filling the latter role, and I want to figure out going forward whether we believe this board will be most useful serving both roles, or whether it should be divided into two forums for these two distinct categories of discussion (since some people may only be interested in one or the other). Even if it were split, it would still be possible to leave notifications here of relevant discussions occurring elsewhere. If the forum is split, I wonder whether a new forum should be created for general discussion (and if so where), or if an existing forum should be used.

My personal opinion is that (as on WP:ANI) discussion of incidents inevitably leads to discussion of general ideas and that attempts to relocate that type of discussion would be ultimately fruitless as it would creep back in. I also think there aren't enough volunteers with an interest in the education program at the moment that we could sustain two separate forums with a critical mass of participation. So I would elect to maintain this single noticeboard for the purpose. However I am a bit biased as I'm not as turned off by the general discussion and resulting watchlist spam as some others might be. Thoughts? Dcoetzee 22:03, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

(moved this thread from talk page, appears to be on same topic)

There are two very different things happening here:

1. Individual incidents (copyvios, COIs, etc) are being reported and followed up on, often time-sensitive.
2. Fundamental issues and complaints about the way the program is being run are being filed here (important, but the first category takes priority).

The Wikipedia Education Program staff highly values both of these, but the amount of traffic on this page makes it difficult for staff to easily and adequately monitor the page for time-sensitive issues.

Would anyone be opposed to or support splitting this noticeboard into two distinct pages, one dedicated to incidents, and the other to non-incident issues? Rob SchnautZ (WMF) ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:00, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

A la AN vs ANI? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:04, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Polls are evil. Let's try not to have a straw poll when we haven't even discussed thoughts or options yet. Dcoetzee 22:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I think we should keep discussion of both issues here for now. Suggestions for improving the program over all are just as if not more important than dealing with short term concerns. And the number of interested editors in these issues are small.

We need more consolidation of discussion here on Wikipedia not more fragmentation. When / if the numbers grow maybe we can reconsider in the future. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I probably will be un-watchlisting this board fairly soon. The threads have been unfocused and very much dominated by one or two editors, and there doesn't seem to be much room for other voices. [1] The Interior (Talk) 22:43, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like you've not read WP:EDITCOUNTITIS, since I'm infamous for a gazillion typo corrections and taking three posts to make one. What issue have you raised that hasn't been heard? I know most of the issues I've raised haven't been heard, and I don't think pointing at my typo corrections has any bearing on that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:58, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

His comment has nothing to do with the essay you linked. I would suggest rereading his post, pretending that he didn't include the Wikisense link at the end. Kevin Gorman (talk) 19:52, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

... but the amount of traffic on this page makes it difficult for staff to easily and adequately monitor the page for time-sensitive issues. Which time-sensitive issue was missed. As far as I can see, as elsewhere, the one I raised was dealt with not by staff, but by Nikkimaria, and it wasn't at all hard to find on this page. Since there is almost no traffic on this page relative to almost anywhere else I follow (heck, you think this is bad, try dealing with what student editing has done to my watchlist :) :), that statement is alarming for reasons beyond the obvious. As the board matures, and WMF staff (hopefully) acknowledges and addresses the systemic failures, there will be less distinction and hopefully less concern. I haven't seen any issue requiring immediate intervention go unaddressed, I have seen several issues discussed appropriately, so I don't see a problem with the board functioning as it is now. Separating general problems from specific time sensitive ones is in the eye of the beholder (perhaps some don't think editor wasted time is urgent, others do, no?), and heavy handed intervention by WMF staff isn't likely to go over well. Also, as mentioned previously, discussions of these programs are already split in too many places, with too little community involvement, which is what led to some of the very problems that have surfaced. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:58, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Apologies for the late response; I've been busy with other tasks and meetings.

• Nikki, yes, that' precisely what I'd like to see done.
• Interior, that's because to date the noticeboard hasn't been linked to any program pages, except for links from the U.S./Canada update pages, and this was added when those pages were split from an Outreach page and moved to the English Wikipedia, so I can't imagine anyone noticed those being added. One of my goals today is to get the word out to the Program volunteers and watchers about this page.
• Sandy, yes, I'm guilty of the same thing, editing several times to put up a single comment; that's not the issue I'm referring to. I'm referring to the size of the discussion, the frequency of discussion, and the number of discussions, since I generally read several responses in the same pageview. The amount of conversation right now about the program is at a level that if an incident were to pop up, it might get lost in the noise and take longer for someone to address it. By separating incidents from general discussion, it not only cleans up some people's watchlists but also helps keep things organized, making sure immediately relevant issues can be addressed without as much delay. Rob SchnautZ (WMF) ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

• If you read the "Reboot" subhead below, you might observe that some of that is just coming from startup issues and miscommunication, that should settle down with maturity. I don't think you have enough traffic here to separate boards yet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:23, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing handout could be updated

I've just found this handout, which is probably one source of many of the problems I'm encountering on medical articles-- it does not explain the difference between primary and secondary sources, and doesn't mention WP:MEDRS at all, which is interesting considering the high number of psych courses or other courses whose topic areas included editing medical articles. I hope the sourcing handout will be updated for the next term. Finding secondary reviews of primary studies for medical articles in PubMed is not that hard, particularly for students who have access to journal databases, but we do need to explain the correct use of primary studies vs. secondary reviews to the professors and students. Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-30/Dispatches Many of the profs seem to think that because journals are peer-reviewed, that means articles are secondary reviews. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:12, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

It's unlikely to be a significant source of the issues you've encountered - I've never seen it before. That said, it is likely that at least some of the classes editing in medical areas were never informed of WP:MEDRS, which is something that a concerted effort to avoid should be made next semester. Kevin Gorman (talk) 18:42, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

It is an issue, and a very big one, in essentially every instance of student editing I've encountered, (likely) because I watchlist medical articles. I seem to be having a hard time getting this message across-- there are a very high number of psych courses editing medical articles, without having been given information about how to use sources correctly. That you have never encountered it has little to do with my editing experience, and addressing this takes a good deal of my time. It would be wonderful if WP:MEDMOS, WP:MEDRS, WP:PSTS, and Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-30/Dispatches were made part of any handouts for courses that have the potential to affect medical articles. Another issue is that students are using extremely outdated sources to add medical content: unlike many other editing areas, medicine changes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:32, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Let me clarify what Kevin meant (and I agree) - I'm not aware of any courses using this handout. It's just a PDF Sage made at some point that he thought might be potentially useful. It was created for courses in general, so of course it doesn't mention every RS guideline that might apply to some course somewhere. If you have a list of issues affecting medical courses that you think would make good reading for students, I'd consider writing something up in your user space that we can link them to for reading, that could also form the basis for a new handout. Just keep in mind that newbies can be easily overwhelmed so good organization to get the main points across is essential. Dcoetzee 19:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thank you, and my apologies to Kevin for the misunderstanding. (However, I did find that PDF linked on multiple course pages.) I will try to do that writeup, then, modeled on Sage's PDF, but probably can't to it until June, which should be in time for fall term. I don't do images, so I can't upload it-- will post here when/if I have something ready that WMF might adapt and use. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:38, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

It looks like it got included in the extremely overcrowded course page template, but it's not something in active use by ambassadors, and it's clear looking at it's viewcount that, like I said, it is not a significant source of the issues you have encountered. Kevin Gorman (talk) 19:46, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Most courses are instructing students to read that page in the first week or so of the course; hence, pageviews going back 90 days are more relevant. And if the students aren't even reading the page, that's a whole 'nother problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:12, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

55 views in 90 days makes it pretty obvious that it's not a source of problems, given the many hundreds of students in the education program. It's one of about two dozen things linked from the standard course resources page, and attracts almost no attention. It would be a problem that the standard course resources page is useless, except that it's being replaced with a mediawiki extension next semester that will be less useless. Kevin Gorman (talk) 20:19, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Now you tell us ... why do I feel like we're going in circles. The issue is, how can we get good sourcing info to students, what we have now is not, and they aren't even reading it. I started a thread saying sourcing info could be updated, and a gazillion posts in, I'm finally told it is being updated. Someone suggested I write up something. Now I find out something better is already in the works-- after wasting a lot of posts on this page. See the problem? So, given that something is in the works, could we perhaps get back to the issue-- how can we put out better info about the issues I raised (primary vs. secondary sources, MEDRS, etc). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:15, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of the update in these resources (Kevin generally knows more about goings-on than me). But my suggestion to you was to write something up specifically for medical articles, which these update resources still will not be - they will be for general support. You're better qualified to write on that specific topic, which was why I suggested it. Dcoetzee 21:18, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

If you want a discussion about how we can better inform students who are editing in medical areas of our medical sourcing standards, have you considered, oh, I don't know, starting a thread about it? Instead of starting a thread about something tangential and getting annoyed when someone gives you a perfectly good answer to your tangent? Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:27, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

You mean perhaps like this one that I did start, or the one in Archive 2? Kevin Gorman, what is your position wrt the Education Program? And where can a regular editor like me begin to understand the bureacracy and how and where we can communicate issues without having to deal with this kind of behavior? Why is everything so obscured (perchance because too much is run off-Wiki, I don't know?) I hope you are better at communicating in whatever your capacity isthan what I'm seeing here, but you are certainly making it difficult to discuss some pretty simple matters, like how we can put better sourcing info in the hands of profs whose students edit medical articles. It's unfortunate that this board, which could be a resource for communicating with the community to address some of the recurring issues, is being poorly utilized ... I guess I should find someone to talk to who will listen. Please drop the nastiness and work on listening. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:57, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

You brought up a particular issue, and I addressed it explicitly. If you want to productively engage with anyone then change your current mode of behavior. I'm choosing to disengage with you, because after interacting with you in good faith in every interaction I've had with you so far, you still don't seem willing to treat me civilly or WP:AGF. I would suspect that very few other education program affiliated editors will choose to interact with you given the tone you adopt. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:06, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

And to be clear, I didn't mean that all the stuff currently on the resources page is being redone, just that course pages are being converted to use a mediawiki extension that will presumably not have the same page loaded with dozens of things drawn up in case they turned out to be useful that no one ever looks at/that are never mentioned by ambassadors/that no one is ever expected to look at. Derrick's suggestion is probably a good one since I doubt any medical people are currently drafting useful resources. I'm unwatchlisting this noticeboard for now, I'll check back in a few weeks to see if it's turned in to something more worth engaging with. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:31, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I suspect it will. By the way, who is Derrick? When communicating with the community, it helps to remember that not all of us are staffers, and some of us do all of our communicating on Wiki. I feel like I'm missing the secret key in here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:00, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Are you still operating under the assumption I'm a staff member? I thought we had cleared that up in the AfD? (Derrick = Dcoetzee) Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:06, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Reboot

After multiple discussions on this page of the issues occuring in medical topics, I located a referencing handout that is linked to now, this term, in several courses that are editing medical articles (incorrectly), and made a concrete suggestion that it could be updated to include better information about how to edit medical topics. Several exchanges later, where it was denied that the lack of such info is part of the problem, it was eventually revealed that this information is, in fact, being updated-- information that might have been stated first, without all the interim denials of the problem. Yes, such communication style is bogging down this page's effectiveness. Yes, the "regular editor" (moi) has no means of knowing the PDFs are being updated since a lot involving the Education Program does not happen on wiki where all can see and follow, this information is coming from two editors whose involvement with the Education Program is unclear (yet they appear to speak with authority), and to date as far as I know, no WMF staff has weighed in on or even acknowledged the discussion or the problem. These kinds of issues have affected the Education Program since its inception. How are regular editors, non-staff or not part of these programs, to make suggestions for improvement? To avoid the denials and indirects that resulted above from a simple request to get better referencing information in to the hands of students and profs, can any WMF staff or person answer the query-- is there a plan or a way to get these handouts updated to include information about editing medical topics, so that the experience can be less frustrating for students, regular editors, and result in better content? Is there a role for an udpated guide specific to medical articles? Is there any reason for me to work on something like that, and with whom would I work and where? I would appreciate if those who don't or can't answer the question cease the indirects, in the hopes that WMF staff will respond. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

No, there is no plan currently in place to get a medical sourcing guide for the education program in place. Yes, such a guide is badly needed. Currently most ambassadors are not familiar with our medical sourcing standards, and I would expect that very few classes that write medical articles have had them explained. If you create one, I would talk to User:JMathewson_(WMF) about getting it put in place. The PDF's in general are also not being updated; all I meant to say above was that the laundry list of out of date resources is, as far as I know, not being included in the mediawiki extension that will be used in the future. (And yes, I am still, as a non-WMF person, directly answering your question, as I did above. This post does leave me wondering, though: are you even capable of making a post where you don't both misinterpret what I've previously said and attack me? I never denied that a lack of information is a problem, in my very first post in the previous section I said "That said, it is likely that at least some of the classes editing in medical areas were never informed of WP:MEDRS, which is something that a concerted effort to avoid should be made next semester.") Kevin Gorman (talk) 16:44, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the direct answer (sans the unnecessary barbs in the smalled portion). Now that I have that information (appreciated), is there a chance that someone involved a la WMF can weigh in to let me know my efforts in this area won't be wasted if I begin to write something up? For all I know, they might reply that they don't want a topic-specific handout, in which case, we need to take a look at the number of courses that are causing these problems (something I haven't done globally yet, I'm only aware of the courses I've encountered). Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:52, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Sandy, I think you'd find it useful to understand the current state of the Education Program -- I can't summarize it now (I'm at work) but it's complicated, which is unfortunately necessary because so much of it (such as on-campus training, and some engagement with the professors) has to happen off-wiki. In addition there is relevant material on other wikis such as the outreach and strategy wikis. I'll try to give a more detailed outline of what I know tonight, but one thing I think you would find useful to know is that the WMF role, though key, has been partly one of coordination, so it's not necessarily the case that there is a single person who has direct responsibility to answer a particular question. Most of the on-wiki participants are simply volunteers, so we often only know about the part of the process we've been personally involved with. Generally I think the program participants are trying to be responsive to the various problems that have come up (such as the ones you're citing). If someone else doesn't jump in with more detail, I'll try to expand this answer tonight. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:33, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Mike-- that would help. It doesn't make sense for me to take the time to work something up if I can't even figger out who the right hands and left hands are, much less whether they are talking to each other and where. If it's not going to be used, no sense ... I suppose I'm still accustomed to the FAC model, where the bucks stops with someone, and everything is in one place, on-Wiki and transparent. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:53, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

You imagine the program as much more hierarchical than it actually is. In reailty, each class is essentially autonomous, with the ambassadors and faculty managing that class deciding what information to present based on that class's individual needs. There is very little management from the WMF, only recommendations and common resources like the standard course page (which apply to all courses). If you created something for medical courses specifically, you would deploy it either by asking ambassadors of medical courses to show it to students, or by leaving a talk page notice for those students yourself (perhaps using a tool like Wikipedia:Mass talk post tool to do so quickly). If such resources became popular, they would become cited more widely, the same kind of wiki magic you see for essays, etc. Dcoetzee 20:30, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Dcoetzee. If the standard course page is semi-automated then (tranclusion or something?), would it be impractical to add the mere two, perhaps three, sentences that it would take to clear up the medical sourcing issue, and make that part of the standard course page? There seem to be a very high number of psych courses and other courses editing medical topics (I haven't done the analysis to get the percentage), and I believe this can be done in a sentence or three. Students are wasting a lot of their own time by writing articles based on primary sources, profs aren't aware, and when they put the articles up, other editors have to cleanup. It's not fair to anyone, and I think a few sentences would help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:35, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thanks Dcoetzee -- saying it's not very hierarchical is a much more concise way to convey what I was trying to say. Sandy, I think if you think of this as another on-wiki process, like Wikiproject A-class reviews, or DYK, you'll get the right basic idea -- this is a wiki, and there's no distinction between you and an editor who is working with a class. They're just editors involved in that process. If you want to create handouts or provide advice to psych classes, there's no reason not to, any more than there would be if the class was operating completely autonomously. However, as you can see from LiAnna's comment below, there are more and less effective ways to get the word out, and WMF employees like LiAnna, and editors like Dcoetzee and Kevin, will often be able to point you in a useful direction. I certainly don't have a good overview of the whole Education Program myself, and I doubt there's any one person who can answer every question you might have. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:15, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi SandyGeorgia, if you have concerns about a handout for psychology articles in particular, you should reach out to the Association for Psychological Sciences, as it's their initiative that's bringing the abnormally large number of psych classes to the U.S. program (see also Wikipedia:WikiProject_Psychology/APS-Wikipedia_Initiative). They may be able to add it to the resources they give to their professors as standard information (which would be good in general because their initiative is also to encourage their membership to edit beyond just having students in their classrooms edit). If you do create a handout on medical sourcing (and I encourage you to!), be sure to add it to WP:Ambassadors/Resources rather than the course page template. The course page template, as Kevin mentioned, is being replaced by an integrated MediaWiki extension that will allow everyone a much better view into what students are doing on-wiki. The extension is awaiting code review right now and will be in place for the next term (fall 2012), so adding new handouts to the current templates won't have any effect, but adding them to the WP:Ambassadors/Resources page will. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 21:37, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

It looks like there may be ~120ish psych students this semester - perhaps it would be a good idea to develop a brief message and bomb it out to the talk pages of all students involved? Sandy, if you come up with the message (and no one objects in the interim,) I can do the bombing. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:02, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Progress ... but I'm out of time for the day, off to exercise ... we'll get on a response later or tomorrow. Thanks, all, this is the kind of info I was after ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:49, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, ready to start on this now. My plan is to come up with a sentence or three, that Kevin could bomb as he mentions, and could be raised at that psych initiative, and might be added to the MediaWiki extension. (The psych articles are not the only problem: there are also issues with a Genetics class and multiple other medical classes that I can't identify at the moment-- it's also affecting plain vanilla medical articles.) Should I model the addition needed on what is currently at File:WikipediaReferencing.pdf, or is that not the best starting place? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:27, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

If it's going to be a handout, I'd suggest going for a separate page (or half-page), since in that case the campus ambassadors could hand it out to the classes for which it's relevant. That seems better to me than embedding a shorter version in a document which will be read by people who aren't ever going to edit medical articles. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:53, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

For the immediate message to be bombed out to students in relevant classes this term, I would just come up with a paragraph or two explaining medical sourcing with links to relevant policies. I'll bomb it out to any students whose classes don't have OA's/CA's immediately, and notify OA's/CA's for the classes that have them (and then give it to their students directly two or three days later if they don't respond to me.) A handout type thing would be nice for next term, though. Kevin Gorman (talk) 18:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd suggest just writing up like a brief informational page in your user space for now, which can be linked to students on their talk pages and easily read. Don't worry about a handout type thing for now. Dcoetzee 20:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for the help. I'm hoping to enlist User:Colin's help in writing this (my prose stinks), but I doubt I'll have anything in time for this term ... it's too late anyway, since most courses are wrapping up. I have a very busy week ahead, and lost time at the beginning of the week that I could have used to write this (trying to get answers here :) It Will Happen! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:07, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Addressing issues / improving the program

I think we have three main question 1) what do we expect from students / profs 2) what can we do to help guide students / profs in this direction 3) what actions do we wish to take with those who do not achieve our expectations after a reasonable effort.

What do we expect

1. the use of secondary sources (ie. review articles, major textbooks ,etc.)
2. appropriate paraphrasing and no copyright violations
3. responsiveness when notes are left on their talk pages or when we reply to their requests for review
4. proper formating / style and the willing to fix this when brought to their attention

What can we do to help

1. provide high quality handouts that reflect these requirements
2. provide in class help through campus ambassadors
3. provide on wiki help via both ambassadors and other Wikipedians

What should we do if expectations not met

This of course will be the most controversial and some may feel we do not need any additional tools to address concerns

1. quick fails at DYK/GAN
2. block or ban classes
3. have bots available to revert the edits of entire classes

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Depending on the context, primary sources or tertiary sources may be very appropriate, and secondary sources may be discouraged in general. For instance, in the WP:TOL WikiProject, articles require the citation of peer-reviewed, published studies (which are primary sources since by definition they introduce original research), and material from secondary sources such as textbooks or peer-reviewed, published syntheses is generally discouraged. (Interestingly, however, press coverage is often acceptable). I don't think it's reasonable to block or ban a class, or to have bots revert edits of all students in a class. You can't punish everyone because one person is violating policies. Rob SchnautZ (WMF) ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:30, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

(a) The WP:TOL requirements are in addition to all the usual wikipedia requirements, not in place of them (I'll admit that enforcement of that can be lax sometimes). (b) we have blocked other groups of meat puppets, why not these? Stuartyeates (talk) 21:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree that students should be evaluated individually. In any given class, there are students who really get policy and are open to feedback, and students who missed the point no matter how well their ambassador emphasized it. We have cases like the IEP where students have a systematic instruction and cultural issue that causes them all to blatantly violate policy, and that's the only case where I'd consider rolling back a class's contributions. Dcoetzee

Unless it's an IEP type situation, I cannot see rolling back an entire classes contributions without individually evaluating them. Likewise I can't see blocking an entire class. I would encourage quickfails at GAN and DYK, and have quickfailed some edu DYK's myself in the past. Stuart: unless all students in a class happened to be editing the same article, referring to them as meatpuppets would be greatly straining the ordinary definition of meatpuppet. In what other situation have we blocked 20+ good faith editors at a time whose editing patterns did not overlap just because they know each other irl and have a poor understanding of policy? Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:32, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that meatpuppetry only arises when accounts associated with a class support a common position at AfD, DYK and other process-oriented pages. I have no problem with them all editing pages in article space. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

FYI, crosspost

See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=489488812#Possible_class_project_creating_essay-like_articles SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok, they've now indicated it is student editing; [2] so I'm wondering how we work out the roles of the different noticeboards? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Anything on AN/I related to classes - even unregistered classes - I would crosspost here. I would bring up all edu issues here myself, unless they require immediate administrator action - like a situation where mass blocks have accidentally been handed out as happened last week, or a situation where for whatever reason mass blocks need to be handed out. However, since this noticeboard is new and has a low profile, I would expect many people to not be familiar with it and just ANI everything. We should probably mention ENB on relevant ANI posts, and in situations where no administrator is actually necessary, perhaps suggest they close their posts there and bring them here. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree with this assessment. In brief: if immediate admin attention is needed, post to WP:ANI, else post here. If anyone posts something edu-related on WP:ANI, post a link to that discussion here, and if someone posts an issue more appropriate for ENB on ANI, suggest moving it here and leaving a link. Oh and here is a link to the current revision: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Possible_class_project_creating_essay-like_articles. Dcoetzee 23:02, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

New botany class?

Over the past several days, I've seen a number of new botany articles appearing from new accounts that appear to be part of a class project. Users in question seem to be:

• Atulsinha24 (talk · contribs)
• Kimbecker53 (talk · contribs)
• Sangl290 (talk · contribs)
• Wlei89 (talk · contribs)
• Kanwarsingh1205 (talk · contribs)
• Sdeep5 (talk · contribs)
• Amirza360 (talk · contribs)
• Cambridge101 (talk · contribs)
• Ab022688 (talk · contribs)

Most have been working in sandboxes first, and I haven't seen any serious issues, other than some patches of copyvio on one of the articles (which have been fixed). I put one of the nicest articles through DYK. Still, there hasn't been much engagement (although I saw one come back to add a reference when a "citation needed" template was placed), and it would be nice if we had a point of contact to offer support. Choess (talk) 16:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

A few more to add to this list:

• Sarahkhan719 (talk · contribs)
• Alokjoshi8 (talk · contribs)
• Urahman (talk · contribs)
• Michaelhoakes (talk · contribs)
• Cwizelius (talk · contribs)

At the risk of sounding like Alice: How curious! There was a similar incident recently with a very narrow category of texts by a medieval monk recently; I'm not sure the editors ever identified, but we were able to confirm that group was unrelated to the WEP. I'd say the most effective method of investigating this would be to contact one or two of the editors and politely ask what's sparked their sudden contributions, pointing out their great work at the same time. In fact, one of these students got a User talk:Atulsinha24#DYK for Notholaena standleyi! And-- maybe the involved professor (assuming there is one) can share a secret or two! Rob SchnautZ (WMF) ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:41, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh, my. Thank you for highlighting yet another DYK nom that slipped through the cracks in a process where similar is common. Template:Did you know nominations/Notholaena standleyi. Since you say "one of these students got a DYK" for this work (as if That's Indicative Of A Good Thing), perhaps you could take the time to review the sources and explain to me just where all of that text came from, and how that text is verified? Until DYK addresses its deficiencies, using it to claim valued student contributions is ... null and void. Also, you might want to watchlist Wikipedia:Did you know/Removed; another quite deficient student nom was just pulled from queue (that's three in about the last 24 hours, which shouldn't have made it through the DYK process, but that's what happens at DYK), and similar will probably escalate as we approach term-end. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:54, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

One of the students, User:Cwizelius, has proactively communicated with the community, so I'm holding out hope they'll be responsive. I would like to learn more about what's going on - was not able to sort it out through detective work. Dcoetzee 22:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Several problems in one

Here's a big ball of wax for contemplation.

• Wikipedia:United States Education Program/Courses/Western Carolina University: Public Policy Analysis (Chris Cooper) lists a student as Campus Ambassador but not the editor name. (How are we to guess who "Kasey Baker" is, and how are we to contact him or her in the event of an issue?)
• Two articles pulled so far at Wikipedia:Did you know/Removed
• Basic deficiencies in writing at North Carolina Structured Sentencing Act results in article being pulled from queue for copyediting: Template:Did you know nominations/North Carolina Structured Sentencing Act
• Where we find that the editor who passed the DYK says on his talk page that he is, in fact, the Campus Ambassador for the course, [3].

So, OA not fully identified on the course page, passing one of the student's DYKs for that course. This is the kind of manipulation of consensus at review processes that has been discussed elsewhere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:09, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

And another instance of same: Template:Did you know nominations/Mental Health Reform in North Carolina (this time involving close paraphrasing or copyvio). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

This appears to be the same person as at [4]. Stuartyeates (talk) 20:34, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

So, if I'm reading this correctly (I may not be?) we have here exactly the scenario we've been concerned about ... people who are likely real-life friends, or working together, passing each other's DYKs, which impacts the student's grade. COI. Of the same kind that comes from paid editing, only in this case, for a grade. This is (potentially) the kind of off-Wiki coordination that has led to an RFC on the Meat Puppetry aspects of the program. I'm hoping I'm not reading this correctly, but from what I can tell, two out of three of the DYKs passed by the Campus Ambassador were deficient (and I haven't checked the third, Template:Did you know nominations/North Carolina Sullivan Acts, closely). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Most professors don't actually grade on getting a DYK - they just tell students to submit for DYK - in large part because appearing on the front page of Wikipedia excites students. Unless this professor has changed his policies from last year, DYK is not effecting his students' grades. That said, I agree that it's inappropriate (but probably well-intentioned) for an ambassador to be passing their own classes' DYKs. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

As an aside, it says at the top that we're supposed to notify people we talk about, ala ANI. I know the board is new enough that we don't really have any established practices, but I feel like we should probably start doing that. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I did, quite a bit ago. Oops, perhaps you're saying I should notify the students as well as the Ambassador? I hope not ... again, I feel the students are victims, the Ambassador is responsible. Please let me know if I should also notify the students. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:27, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, I didn't check if you had before my post, because it hadn't occurred to me to notify people ala ANI until I saw the header just now :P I agree with you that students shouldn't normally be notified for class level problems, and will edit the header to reflect that shortly unless someone disagrees. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:34, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Another start-up issue to be sorted ... I suppose I should notify the professor ??? Ugh, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:36, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Did that, and noticed that the prof hasn't edited since Feb 2. Sittin' on my fingers on that one. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I updated Wikipedia:United States Education Program/Courses/Western Carolina University: Public Policy Analysis (Chris Cooper) with the ambassador's username, and notified him at User talk:Kayz911 (which no one had done already, as far as I can tell). Dcoetzee 22:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The editor was notified, but the notifications were removed. Stuartyeates (talk) 22:49, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah I see, my mistake. Dcoetzee 23:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Gotta go with Sandy here. :( If the Ambassadors do not understand the process, if they are intentionally passing content they should not, if the ambassadors are doing this because students are compelled to edit as grades matter, then there should absolutely be strong ambassador oversight for a classroom with Wikipedia project space. If the ambassador is not doing their job and students are moving content over and nominating content with ambassador approval (though consent or by not paying attention), the ambassador needs to undue it and bear the responsibility. This is NOT the fault of the students. This is the fault of the instructor and the fault of the ambassador. Given the examples we're getting, we should seriously consider blocking instructors and ambassadors who are asleep at the wheel, and give students topic area blocks where they cannot edit inside their assigned coursework area but explain we welcome their contributions elsewhere. --LauraHale (talk) 21:49, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

A fucked up DYK nom is not justification for a topic ban. No example given in this area so far is remotely justification for a topic ban. There's also nothing approaching justification for blocking ambassadors put forward in this section: please go read ENWP's blocking policy and then explain why we should block ambassadors. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The course description calls for DYK and GAN submission. Since the prof doesn't edit, perhaps someone will from the program will email him or her. But I don't see anything worthy of blocking here: I'd recommend they find another ambassador, though. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Seriously annoying the ambassador situation with the one class. I am NOT a medical person. I would prefer to write about women's sport. I want to edit there, but I'm having to fix the really blatant problems caused by completely unresponsive people who even though the DYK stuff went pear shaped and students didn't respond to concerns, nomimated material for GA. (And this is going to be a HUGE HUGE problem as I suspect GAN will need to be sat on because of end of semester submissions and goals of getting quick reviews as some queues have waits months long, which will encourage blatant stupidity.) At the very least, the ambassador needs to be removed from the programme and only invited back AFTER they have demonstrated they can write and review both DYKs and GAs. --LauraHale (talk) 21:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow, the fact that is even making a impact is quite humorous to myself, because it outlines some of the major problems on wikipedia. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. This will be my first and only response to these hate responses that give wikipedia, and the public policy initiative a bad name. First off, as part of my official training by Wikimedia, I was never informed that we could not participate in the DYK process. Unlike online mentors, we play a very small role in the classes and/or creation of the student's articles and do not go a deep process of helping them (because we don't have time). So long as we have not edited their work (prior to the DYK) or been instrumental in the creation there is no nexus between me at the article. I am like any one of you, an outside observer. None of these article I have every seen before the DYK process. My only input were creating the code to help them references materials in the correct manor, and to justify where their citations came from and what information they used. In same cases I might have helped a student with a citation question or helped them make a change, but if anyone thinks that is inappropriate, you have lost your mind. Now, the class does not have an OA, I reached out to a few, but were unable to help due to their busy lives. Therefore I had to make codes for them to use for citations, and provide all inclusive materials on wikipeida standards, and even defend them when vandals rip apart their hard work. The words and citations are all of their own accord, and they are to be held to the same standard as all of us are held...

Secondly, the class does not grade based upon the DYK process, NOR IS IT REQUIRED, so you should all be careful to believe everything you read on these outdated course pages, because the professor does not follow it at all. In fact, Wikimedia suggested that every class have their teachers require their students submit to the DYK process. The Professor and I both agreed this was too harsh after last semester, and removed it from the course. No grade is given to students based upon their rating of the articles, and the teacher (a professional policy analyst) reviews each submission based in its validity, format, citations and content (though many of the students submitted to the DYK process before this happened). So therefore your nexus does not exist. So at that point, most of your argument is void. With a response like this, you would think I was passing article for GA for Featured reviews. But this is the DYK, and these people are obviously are making martyr of these students. There is no problem making helpful critiques, but this is just silly, you are making students (and possible future repeat editors) grow sour of wikipedia in general with post like this. The DYK process holds far less scrutiny than the B-GA-FA reviews, if anyone thinks different, take a look at what gets passed the dyk and then those reviews. The process is very simple, new editors are encouraged to participate, and are not even asked to review other articles for their first submission. Minor critiques of writing styles and minor edits play a small role in the the process. If anyone poses a problem with the work of these students, then that's great and you should provide feedback. However, considering many of these students are older individuals who are not adept at the use of computers and scripting like many of us, it is important in welcome their work and encourage them to continue to participate in wikipedia even when they are unsure of minor NIT-PICKY details. I have seen countless people's dyk status articles ripped apart by individuals, many times unjustly (who often disagree with article), and lord knows I have had it happen to me many a time. If I have mistakenly passed an article because it's sources are invalid, then I am sorry. However, if they are valid, not clearly biased, then the issue is mute. If everyone as banned when they passed an article and someone below found a error and unpasssed it, then there would be no editors left on wikipeida. That's why we have multiple people looking at the articles, to catch errors we all make. In fact, most of the students and non-students I review need hook changes, or minor editing changes (which I either made) or suggested that they could not be passed unless improvements were made.

Finally, I do not care about your opinions of the Wikimedia's Public Policy initiative, if teachers should conduct these project, if Wikimedia was right in creating the Ambassadors or OA's, or if I did a good job or not in the review. Why? Because I have not violated any Ambassador policies, and have been widely approved for my teaching abilities with new wikipedians, training teachers and other Ambassadors, and I try to help everyone on wikipeida. I passed only articles that were cited (including at the end of all paragraphs), not clearly biased, not slander pieces, passed the length, and had a decent hook etc. I prefer to give all individuals a little wiggle room on grammatical errors in a DYK or c-class rating, because they quickly are changed, and articles drastically improved. None of you can prove I showed any favoritism, plainly because there isn't any, and I think everyone should have their fair chance to shine here on Wikipedia. Do not bother asking me to respond or post slanderous comments on my talk page, because I will not respond to them...This will be my one and only post on this matter, because I don't play into this type of bullshit on wikipedia where people focus their efforts into creating a chat-room with internet drama, instead of getting back to the subject at hand, improving and expanding the information on wikipedia in a CIVIL and constructive manor. That is all, be well, and have an otherwise wonderful day of wikipedia edits Kayz911 (talk) 23:28, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

systemic issues other than w/r/t medical articles?

So far, the vast majority of negative stuff that has been brought up that deals with more than a single class or single incident has been related to sourcing standards on medical articles. Obviously, we currently have a hole in the way we present medical sourcing guidelines to classes. To make sure that other valuable feedback is not getting lost in the conversation about medical articles: has anyone else seen any other specific content related areas that we have similar systemic holes in? Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)