Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
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Active alerts

User:Wetman

Stuck

I recently wrote a message to Wetman about his comments towards me on the talk page of Amazons [here], where he implied that I wasn't a competent adult and stated that we couldn't have sensible discussion when I disagreed with him on the issue. When I wrote back to him, he replied [here] and again called me incompetent, accused me of having "misplaced self-confidence", implied that my educational background was inferior to his, and compared me to an "aggressive class clown". It is not for my sake that I'm putting in this wikiquette alert, it is for the sake of others. Another editor has told me that Wetman has been rude to him on occasion as well, and I fear that his behavior will start driving away new editors. Asarelah (talk) 00:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Wetman has avoided direct personal attacks here, and has tried to make his inflammatory comments non-specific. However, at the root, he is being quite incivil and needs to stop. Mangojuice^talk 04:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I had trouble which I tried to discuss with him here but he was less than civil. There's more at this location with additional information from User:Polaron. - Denimadept (talk) 05:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Wetman, having made some 52,000 edits since September 2003, whose resources of patience and forbearance are in perennially short supply, has surely raised some resentment, particularly by inappropriate laughter and frank, often sharp remarks in response to various dishonesties, pettiness, aggressive behavior, attacks with the WP:CIVILITY club, disinfopage pushing, list-making and other coxcombry. His Talkpage archives will show the nature of his habitual discourse quite plainly, and may be thumbed in order to select out further disgraceful examples of his "inflammatory though non-specific" comments:

User talk:Wetman/archive3Mar2004

User talk:Wetman/archive16Jun2004

User talk:Wetman/archive12Aug2004

User talk:Wetman/archive16Oct2004

User talk:Wetman/archive15Jan2005

User talk:Wetman/archive22Mar2005

User talk:Wetman/archive23Jun2005

User talk:Wetman/archive3Sep2005

User talk:Wetman/archive1Dec2005

User talk:Wetman/archive28Mar2006

User talk:Wetman/archive3July2006

User talk:Wetman/archive15Oct2006

User talk:Wetman/archive7Feb2007

User talk:Wetman/archive25Jun2007

User talk:Wetman/archive10Aug2007

User talk:Wetman/archive28Dec2007

User talk:Wetman/archive16April2008

Remarks concerning competency in the field of Greek mythology belong at Talk:Amazons, where the complainant deleted a commonplace statement in July 2007, but did not have sufficient interest in the subject to have it on his Watchlist. Rather than make defensive retorts to individual complaints, Wetman prefers to let the record speak for itself, and to reserve the option of perhaps making some general remarks with broad applications— or perhaps not— once everyone has fully expressed themselves. Wetman (talk) 05:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Your record does speak for itself. Here are three people who you've annoyed. I suggest you try harder to be less annoying, as repelling people from Wikipedia is not productive. And I can't believe you are totally ignorant of your effect, given, as you say, your record. - Denimadept (talk) 13:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I had kept the Amazons page on my watchlist, I simply didn't notice the remark that you made until recently, which I stated in my initial note to you on the talk page. I am also a woman, not a man, just so you know. I would also like to point out that a neutral third party, MangoJuice, also believes that your behavior has been inappropriate and incivil. Asarelah (talk) 15:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I also had a disagreement with him about an addition he made to History of Chester, where he saw no need to add a reference to some material he had added, commenting that the article was mediocre. Of course, it would always remain mediocre if people had this attitude. A reply from him suggested that since the wikilink he had used contained a reference, that would suffice, but recent discussions on WP:Reliable sources confirms that I was correct in stating that this was insufficient. He then ended the discussion by making a statement: "What very high standards for such a mediocre article! Wetman never keeps articles on his Watchlist that are so distinctly "owned", so, that will be all from me at this article." The accusation of ownership was totally unjustified, and a comment by one of the leading contributors to UK articles: User:Jza84 supported the view that his comments were highly uncivil. (diff of exchange on History of Chester page.  DDStretch  (talk) 16:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

A spat I had with him yesterday at Talk:Dorian invasion over my changing a word involved quite a bit of personal attacks and insulting language. He does not play well with others. Too bad, as I actually value his contributions. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 19:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I, for one, don't mean to imply that he's useless or anything like that, but that he needs to play with others better than he has been doing. - Denimadept (talk) 19:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Wetman is indeed a very dedicated and obviously intelligent editor, he simply needs to learn to handle disagreements with civility. Asarelah (talk) 02:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I also agree with this viewpoint. He needs to be able to deal with disagreements better and accept that others can be correct and he can be wrong occasionally.  DDStretch  (talk) 13:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

So how should this issue be resolved? Asarelah (talk) 01:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

If it were easy, we wouldn't have brought it here. However, perhaps it's time to get more active. I feel he needs a apollogist following him around to try to reduce his negative effects, but I doubt anyone would apply for the position. I'd appreciate it if he'd try to consider his words first, forego his attempts at humor in such situations, and assume good faith in all situations other than blatant vandalism. - Denimadept (talk) 14:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, but what's the next step here? Just how do we get him to listen to us? Asarelah (talk) 19:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Should we send him a pretty woman to soften him up a bit? If anyone has a spare pretty woman around, have her come by my place afterwards. :-D No, wait, before! Denimadept (talk) 19:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I meant more in terms of protocol for Wikiquette alerts than anything else. We have reached a consensus that he needs to change his behavior, but through what channel? Does an admin have to talk to him or something? I'm just unclear on what we do now. Asarelah (talk) 01:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I left Wetman a note on his talk page to let him know that we have reached a consensus here. Whether or not he chooses to add more input to this discussion remains to be seen. Asarelah (talk) 20:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

WQA is non-binding - this page exists to try to help you guys resolve your dispute and to give advice on how to deal with civility issues. If you find that the conflict is still going on after you've come to a consensus on this page, you'd probably need to escalate to a WP:RFC/USER, WP:MEDCAB or other forum on WP:DR. Those forums have varying levels of formality. If you see gross incivility and direct violations of policies, you can file a report at WP:ANI if your attempts to curb the problem are unsuccessful. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Wetman has been specifically invited to contribute a few further words, though his sense has been that introducing any exchanges of pert ripostes here would more likely add heat than illumination to this forum with a jury of three. TEven the most casual observer will detect an unusual lack of collegiality in the above posts: collegiality is the substance of which civility is the surface. Civility without collegiality is often taken for irony, sometimes correctly, for irony naturally arises from a perception of the difference between things as they are and things as they might rightfully be expected.

Wetman would regret ever making any sharp remark that didn't have a point. The tempest spilling onto the present saucer arose from hostile and less than adult reactive responses defending two uninformed deletions, and from the insistent insertion of a disinfobox with incorrect dates for Ponte Vecchio, which Wetman answered with unforgivable wit and class. Concerning Asarelah's deletion of a perfectly neutral mainstream statement concerning creation of individual names for Amazons in later Antiquity, see Talk:Amazons#Amazon names and to Asarelah's offended remarks— months later— at Wetman's Talkpage. Concerning User:AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 's response to learning the new word "relict" having mis"corrected" it to "relic", see User talk:Wetman#relic vs. relict and Talk:Dorian invasion.

Where do the greater incivilities lie in these three cases? Do they really lie in a sharp word of well-deserved reproof? Wetman knows how to apologize when an apology is required, as a look through the Talkpage archives he has listed above will show. The encyclopedia that anyone can edit is by its very definition a compromise with mediocre information: Wetman is under no illusions, but strives for fewer inaccuracies, no matter how aggressively they may be insisted upon. Wetman's negative encounters at Wikipedia are commonly with over-confident assertions of misinformation, but are rarely met with such toxic reactions as these present ones. --Wetman (talk) 22:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

So even when treated with all possible civility and given accurate references, he's still holding onto his position. I'm darned if I know why, since it's clear he's not an idiot. I suggest that Wetman return to the scene of the skirmish and re-read what happened there. Perhaps he will feel enlightened when he realizes his error, but I'm not holding my breath. - Denimadept (talk) 22:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Wetman, I have no idea how you can possibly interpret this thread as having a lack of collegiality on our part. We respect your contributions and dedication, we've even stated so. The problem here is that you seem to think that its perfectly okay to insult people and to call them ignorant when they happen to disagree with you or question you on some point where you are convinced that you are correct. You say that you would regret ever making any "sharp" remark that didn't have a point. Well Wetman, you're obviously an intelligent man, and if you wanted to, you could make your points without resorting to "sharp" remarks which antagonize other people. I'm baffled as to why someone as dedicated to the encyclopedia as you are would choose to alienate his fellow editors in such a fashion. Asarelah (talk) 23:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

A key point, Asarelah. - Denimadept (talk) 00:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about lack of collegiality, but Denimadept's "spare pretty woman" comment doesn't strike me as a demonstration of "all possible civility", nor does it give "accurate references", nor is it a serious attempt to resolve any dispute. In addition, depending on one's cultural background, that comment could be seen as offensive, patronizing, sexist, disgusting, or simply idiotic. Do you see my point? Please "unstick" and archive this thread immediately, I find it disgraceful to the purpose of this page and a waste of time. Wetman is an excellent and respected editor. Occasional mild condescension and hurt sensitivities don't justify this hullabaloo. Look at how this thread started ... we need to move on! ---Sluzzelin talk 23:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Trying to change the subject will not fix the situation, Sluzzelin. Wetman has a tendancy to piss editors off, and that is not helpful. - Denimadept (talk) 00:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Making gratuitous misogynist remarks while looking for reasons to get pissed off won't fix anything either. I don't know what you expect. Obviously Wetman won't perform like a circus seal to your satisfaction. Fine, continue this thread if you truly believe it will "fix" anything. I don't see anything that needs to get fixed, except perhaps the hypersensitivity of a couple of editors. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that Deninadept was merely attempting to lighten the obvious tension here with joke (for the record, I'm a woman and I didn't find his comment sexist or offensive). Perhaps it was inappropriate, but I doubt that he meant anything by it. Anyway, Wetman's personal attacks against myself and others hardly strike me as mere "mild condescension". His attitude has been extremely supercilious. I certainly agree that Wetman is an excellent and respected editor, nobody can deny that, but that hardly gives him the right to disparage and insult fellow editors simply because he has a disagreement with them. I don't appreciate you calling my attempts to resolve this dispute with him in a reasonable manner "disgraceful" and "a waste of time", nor would I call myself hypersensitive, as I have been editing Wikipedia steadily since 2005, and I have never met an editor anywhere near as abrasive as Wetman has been. I am doing my very best to handle this uncomfortable issue in a civilized and reasonable way, and I think everything that I've posted reflects that. I'm not sure what to expect here either Sluzzelin, but I'm not feeling very optimistic, given the way this thread is going. Asarelah (talk) 00:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Sluzzelin writes: "I don't see anything that needs to get fixed, except perhaps the hypersensitivity of a couple of editors." So, complaining about a gratuitous accusation of ownership of an article when I (quite rightly as it turned out) asked for a reference to back up a fact he had added is all right, and is hypersensitivity on my part? Similarly, trying to state that a link to another wikipedia article is a sufficient reference for that fact, when this violates official wikipedia policy is also all right, and it is hypersensitivity on my part to request this? I suggest that it is not. I also suggest that Wetman's reaction to this last issue is the hypersensitivity brought about by me asking him to correct an error of omission. The reaction seems almost to be brought about by a sense of affrontery that I should have dared to question him on this matter. It is not under dispute that he makes very good contributions, but that does not absolve him from behaving in a way which demonstrates the collaborative nature of wikipedia, and it is quite wrong of you to suggest that very good contributors should not reasonably have matters raised about their behaviour in dealing with felllow editoirs who make reasonable requests of them, or that in so doing they are attacked for raising them about an editor who makes otherwise good contributions.  DDStretch  (talk) 12:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The first instance of offense, the one that started the thread, was a reaction to a post by Wetman which was nine months old. The offended user did not first continue a discussion on that talk page, nor seek "dispute resolution" on Wetman's talk page. Instead the nine-month old issue was raised directly here. <Untrue account of order of events struck out by Sluzzelin. Apologies to Asarelah and misled readers. The fact remains that it was a reaction to a nine-month old post. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)>

That is simply not true at all! If you read this thread from the top, you will see that I did indeed seek dispute resolution on Wetman's talk page, as can be seen right here, where he handled it by calling me incompetent, accused me of having "misplaced self-confidence", implied that my educational background was inferior to his, and compared me to an "aggressive class clown". That is why I filed this alert! Asarelah (talk) 17:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your admission that you were mistaken. Anyway, the reason that I didn't go talk to Wetman right away is because I generally use my watchlist to keep an eye on the articles themselves rather than the talk pages, and I was also heavily preoccupied with various other articles that I was working on. I simply hadn't noticed Wetman's edit until recently. Anyway, the time lapse is irrelevant. The fact remains is that Wetman was very much out of line, and I don't see how you (or anybody) can possibly defend his behavior towards me on his talk page. Asarelah (talk) 18:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

<Continuation of original, now amended post by Sluzzelin> The only personal attacks I see in the second instance, here, are those accusing Wetman of "being patently offensive" and the statement "Wetman doesn't seem interested in doing anything but being offensive". Wow. This comment would have offended me, but Wetman chose not to react.

The thread linked by DDStretch does show civility on his part, but "If you are at all unsure how to do this, WP:V, WP:CITE, and WP:References will provide some guidance." could easily be interpreted as patronizing when addressed to a regular editor.

You see, it's often possible to take offense from what we see as violations of WP:AGF, WP:NPA and so forth. (This was my point regarding the "spare pretty woman" remark) It regularly happens when we argue as if we ourselves, as projected into online space, were involved, not the articles, not the words. The easiest solution, in my opinion, is to focus on the topic and ignore the rest. That is my advice, and I have nothing more to offer. I doubt very much that I, one completely insignificant non-admin with no clout or personality, will be able to persuade anyone who takes offense and the path of personal interference. Continue this thread, if you think it is going to improve the encyclopedia. I don't think it will improve anything, but merely exacerbate the grudges. I may be wrong. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

If Wetman found my response patronising, he was quite at liberty and intelligent enough to say so, in which case, I would have readily apologised to him. However, it is never appropriate to react to perceived incivility or patronising comments with uncivil or unjustified accusations, as he did. Your hypothesis, if it were found to describe what Wetman thought, provides an explanation for his actions, but it does not excuse them in this case. I agree that the easiest solution is to stay focused on the topic, and I hope you will point this out to Wetman yourself in advising him or her that it was inappropriate to react to any perceived patronisation in the manner he or she did, since your comments could equally well be directed at him or her as they were at me. For my part, if your hypothesis were found to be an accurate description of how he or she took my comments which provoked his or her reaction, I will apologise. I hope Wetman would do the same, but only his or her behaviour, rather than hopes and desires and hypotheses about his or her interpretations and actions, can decide the matter.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

As an afterthought: if the complaint made is that I was patronising in reminding Wetman, an established editor, of the policy regarding the need for verification, then the complaint clearly fails: Wetman did not apparently know the relevant policy which is that other wikipedia articles should not be used to verify information in different articles. In this case, pointing out the policy seemed quite reasonable, and it is difficult to see how a justified interpretation of this could be viewed as patronising, though if Wetman says that is how it was interpreted by him or her, then of course I will apologise. People have slips and minor errors from time to time, and perhaps one should pay attention to the reaction they have when these are pointed out.  DDStretch  (talk) 10:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The difference between DDstretch and Wetman is that DDstretch pointed out what he percieved as an error on Wetman's part in a civil, gentle manner, and did not berate Wetman at all. Wetman chose to point out an error that he percieved me as making by belittling my background. Why you would complain about DDstretch's remark and yet dismiss my taking offense at Wetman's insults towards me as hypersensitivity on my part is extremely puzzling to me. It strikes me as a double standard on your part, Sluzzelin. Asarelah (talk) 16:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

As somebody who has never talked to Wetman before, his behaviour often seems rude. Maybe there are other circumstances but, for example, with AllGloryToHypnotoad, he insulted his choice of dictionary, suggested he should edit Simple English wikipedia because of his limited vocabulary, called him ignorant, used the word "irregardless" and then said he would refuse to further discuss it. I would tend to agree with him about his use of the word relict but he needs to realise that politeness is an important part of getting people to agree --Tombomp (talk) 08:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd go so far as to say that politeness is essential for getting people to agree. Nobody wants to work with an editor who treats them this way. Asarelah (talk) 20:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.  DDStretch  (talk) 22:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

← My one and only interaction with Wetman some months ago left me with a decidedly low opinion of his ability to play well with others. —Travis^talk 22:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Insults and other misconduct by newcomer to discussion

There is currently a discussion at Talk:Hogenakkal Falls regarding the location of the falls relative to the border. A party who was recently entered the discussion, User:Sarvagnya, has since he entered the discussion acted as follows. He belittled others for treating an editor with a few months experience the same way he himself treated an editor with not even that much experience when that editor was new, the editor in question being one of the participants in the current discussion. He has not apparently bothered to familiarize himself with any of the discussion which took place before his arrival, as is indicated by his appearing to produce the same arguments that had been made and dismissed earlier. He has also regularly insulted virtually everyone else involved in the discussion, often in ways which have little if any bearing on the discussion itself, and, basically, acted outside the rules of conduct. I do not believe this is the first time this party has engaged in such conduct. I believe it would be a good idea if this party were told by an uninvolved party that his behavior in this matter is less than acceptable. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 21:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I concur with what John Carter has said. A skim-through of the article Talk page, searching for "Sarvagnya", should verify this quite quickly. (Of course, any editor wishing to carry out a more complete read-through is most welcome to do so.) SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 22:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

He's had repeated trouble with civility ever since he was a newbie himself. --Relata refero (disp.) 05:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• Indeed, it is an ongoing problem. But I suggest an Rfc (user conduct) might be more effective. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

My observations as an editor of Hogenakkal Falls. User:John Carter (came on board under solicitation by Wikiality123) and User:SheffieldSteel (accidentally joined while trying to prematurely settle AN/I issue against Wikiality123 as an Admn though he is not an admn) are newer (appeared to had no knowledge about the topic) to the Hogenakkal Falls than many other editors including Sarvagnya (see archived discussions). Looks like they joined just with an intension of supporting user:Wikiality123 and repeatedly/deliberately ignored views of others. The language by user:wikiality123, User:John Carter and User:SheffieldSteel is quite intimidating and often offensive towards anyone who try to correct current mistake in the lead. One of them had gone to the extent of using BS. They have fueled into escalation in heated arguments Sr editors including an Admn involved have not made any efforts to keep discussions cool. It is requested to keep discussions calm and move forward towards a consensus than foot dragging. Naadapriya (talk) 06:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that Naadapriya was repeatedly told directly that the material he sought to add was not in fact supported by the evidence he provided. He repeatedly, and at least once expressly, ignored any and all such comments. He also repeatedly tried to introduce POV material, stating that it was NPOV. His own abject failure to respond to the valid points he was repeatedly advised about could hardly be said to have helped the situation. It has been repeatedly noted that Naadapriya is a comparatively new user. However, I do not think that his misunderstandings of the policies, guidelines, and processes of wikipedia are the responsibility of anyone but himself. John Carter (talk) 16:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• Another ongoing problem. Again, I suggest Rfc (conduct) - 2 separate ones - 1 for each of them. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

RfC was initiated, but Naadapriya and Sarvangya chose not to take part in them. As for the use of BS by me I have repeatedly pointed to Naadapriya that I was talking about WP:BULLSHIT. If he wants I can show him diffs of his guru Sarvagnya himself using it several times!! Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 18:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW can Naadapriya point out a single edit that he would have made to the Hogenekkal falls article other than about the jurisdiction? The intention of this editor and what interests him to this article is well explicite. Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 18:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• Correction: There was a request for Mediation involving Naadapriya, who disagreed with the proposal. As far as I know, no request for Comment has been filed. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 18:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • In that case, I strongly recommend going straight to Rfc. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure is SheffieldSteel is aware that Sarvagnya did visit the previous RfC, which was obviously of the same issue. He left message on the talk page saying that my RfC was filled with total bad faith, whereas the user could have joined the RfC if he really intended to. I would support an RfC if initiated, but nevertheless, I won't be too optimistic about the outcome. Cheers Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 20:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Are there any objections to filing an RfCU when an alert here is still not completed? Having minimal knowledge of this particular process, I welcome any informed input. John Carter (talk) 21:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

No there isn't - RfCU can be opened at any time. I think it is preferrable in this case too. But, it does require an amount of time and effort. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Nice to see Ncmvocalist, Wikiality123 and John Carter getting together here. Something common I found from all three about me.

1. were more interested to block me than answering my comments
2. tend to get offensive when facts are shown that contradict your POV
3. lobby to get others involved just to oppose
4. Try to taint with false accusations

To John Carter : It is a puzzle to see that you refuse acknowledge seeing an WP:RS I pointed out from the existing article which even Wikiality123 has acknowledged (see discussion on rejected mediation page). Editors need not have to invent a new RS if there is one already in the article. Also I was under the impression that you were mostly helping towards reaching a consensus. Now you sound different by going back to already settled discussions. Is this an action as an Editor or Admn?. To understand your role better still you owe an answer in open for my inquiry posted on your talk page To Wikiality123; As usual looks like you forgot about discussions on speculative water project section To Ncmvocalist : Surprise to see you here (hope voluntary not by solicitation as other editor did) all of a sudden but I am lost on what you are talking about now.

BTW : Team efforts are good when they are constructive Naadapriya (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I have worked extensively with Sarvagnya over the last two years on dozens and dozens of articles. IMO, he is a very pleasant and high quality editor and has several invaluable contributions to wikipedia over the last two years. After a quick survey of both Sarvagnya's and the Carter's contribs, I must say that this wikiquette alert seems to be motivated by content issues in which the Carter and Wikiality seem to be involved in against Sarvagnya. It would be better if Carter sorted out content issues on the talk page instead of taking barbs at his opponent here. I also see no need here for a RFC or any such thing. It would almost a violation of WP:POINT. Thanks, KNM ^Talk 01:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Sarvagnya is easily one of the most amazing editors I've come across. He's one of our best defenders of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR and also a content-editor of high quality. Thanks to him, scores of articles have improved from using sources like tamilnation.com and blogs to using better, more academic sources. This here is mob lynching and nothing else. A very quick look at your recent histories shows that you guys got your bluff called on a certain talk page. And you decide to get even by filing this dishonest alert. I completely and emphatically disagree with this ganging up against and attempt to browbeat one of our best. --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ ^{walkie-talkie | tool box} 02:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarvagnya is easily one of the most amazing editors I've come across?? Really?? Crikey you haven't looked around have you. Addressing POV and writing article neutrally is a very important issue but can anybody say he goes about what he does in a respectable fashion and treats other editors civilly?

Why is that I always see Lahiru_k and KNM when it comes to articles against Tamils? Please keep your personal preferences outside Wiki. Sarvagnya is someone who delibrately selectively quotes to demonise TN or Tamils [1]. When Sarvagnya talks about me in his intepretation as iltreating a novice Naadapriya, Sarvagnya himself was the one who hit me with questions when I was a very much new user, with less than 20 edits on wikipedia. There is no way Sarvagnya could have not realised that am novice, because it was he who posted the first ever message on my talk page. Whereas Naadapriya knows wiki rules well. In his own words, you can see him quoting (or misquoting) wiki rules and policies. Sarvagnya would freely ask me in his own rude way about references, but when his mate Naadapriya is asked to provide references, it becomes iltreating a novice. I know a few more people other than KNM and Lahiru_k who would come here in support of Sarbagnya, including a fruity admin. I think I will email a few admins with the list of members who I expect to come in support of Sarvagnya and with reasons why, so that I can build my case easily on them. Ciao Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 12:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Neither of the editors above seems to have noticed that several people had commented that virtually every comment Sarvagnya had made on the page prior to this posting here was at best a violation of civility, often worse. While I welcome informed discussion, I have to say that I don't see anything here, other than perhaps an attempt to whitewash the comments of Sarvagnya which were adjudged by virtually everyone involved as being clearly unacceptable. The RfCU may well go ahead in any event, when this discussion is closed, as even several other editors, including Relata above, who I believe tends not to be involved in these subjects often, seem to disagree with both of the last two editors above rather markedly. John Carter (talk) 02:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Having continued to read the above, some of those commenting here also seem to fail to understand the difference between content issues and conduct issues - but this can be clarified elsewhere. RfCU is needed. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I agree with user John Carter. Sarvagnya does have a long history of being rude, abusive and insulting. A quick look at his talk pages should provide ample proof. --Madhu (talk) 20:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Now an RfC awaiting activation at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Sarvagnya. John Carter (talk) 01:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

• • Wow Wikiality. I wonder if the secret cabal of anti-Tamilian Kannadiga/Sinhala ethnonationalists has anything else up its sleeve. Here's a novel solution: find RS's and debate that instead of forum shopping.Bakaman 01:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Art4em

The user Art4em (talk) is edit warring over the article Rat Bastard Protective Association. Currently he has spoofed a protected tag on the article (the article is not protected) and has reverted my disputed tag on several occasions. He has also posted inflammatory comments to the WikiProject San Francisco Bay Area project page. In truth, the user has already been counselled several times regarding his posts at User_talk:Art4em and also User_talk:Jonny-mt/Archive_4, but I'm not sure if this is now significant enough to take to a higher level of dispute resolution. For some of the gory history to this, you can see the full details at User_talk:Art4em and some further commentary on my talk page. Some friendly guidance would be much appreciated, in particular whether this is the appropriate forum to raise this. Debate (talk) 00:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I notice that the article Rat Bastard Protective Association has since been full protected, which is fine as far as it goes, but in hindsight I probably wasn't clear enough in my last comment. Ultimately the problem is a user who insists on creating articles and adding content to articles based almost entirely on one single source, most likely his own personal website, and that unreliable material is still sitting there. Debate (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I look forward to addressing the deletion of my articles, however, since User:Debate has not speedily deleted this article Rat Bastard Protective Association as my other two (to my dismay and formal/wiki objections), I would like to review to the Party Down Scandal first, since it was deleted despite my and other wiki protocol requests. Moreover, I would like to review how other editor's supportive comments in the Discussion Room were deleted without being addressed or contested by Debate. I would like them to be included in the record. Respectfully --Art4em (talk) 01:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

When articles are deleted, their talk pages are also routinely deleted. A single user talk page (usually the creator's) or a deletion review is the place to continue discussion. - CobaltBlueTony™ _talk 15:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

How convenient. So you are telling me that you support the speed deletion of pages without debate? Moreover, you are inferring that you condone, and that I (or another sole entity) can go around and speedily delete pages summarily, as was the case with my two pages, despite protocol objections / and other editors refutation of the deletion???? -- I find it amazing how you believe that deletion of pages done without / against protocol is proper procedure??? --Art4em (talk) 18:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. From my interactions with this user, I am of the opinion that he is either unwilling or unable to distinguish between content discussions and personal attacks/incivility. He repeatedly takes personal offense and lambasts other editors personally for their editing practices connected to his articles of interest. Debate even gave an exhaustive review of the references used by Art4em in House where the Bottom Fell out, explaining his positions on each one and why he felt they did not meet Wikipedia's expectations, and Art4em accused him of 'ignorance and errors beyond belief, and later accused Debate of 'stupidity or some philistine agenda, again accusing him of "ignorance beyond belief.". The only conclusion I can come to is that Art4em's concerns could only be addressed by taking his side in the notability discussion of his articles of interest and officially criticize Debate's actions in connection with the same. He does not seem to acknowledge the legitimacy of others' arguments, or does not want to accept that he may be in a very slim minority opinion group. - CobaltBlueTony™ _talk 15:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments: unfortunately, as I said to you earlier, you appear to have the cart in front of the horse...Moreover, my 'contextual' comments again and again, (and see above) have gone went unheeded, thank you. I would love to discuss my first deleted page, namely, Party Down Scandal. Why is that so incredibly difficult, why not discuss the content of my complaints, and ensuing frustration with such inability to engage the content?????? Sincerely --Art4em (talk) 18:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Because your attitude here detracts from your efforts and ours, and you refuse to acknowledge this fact. The "horse" in your analogy is really the user; the "cart" is the content. When the horse starts bucking and thrashing, the "content" becomes unstable and won't make it to its destination. We all work with each other in discussing and resolving content disputes, but no one wants to work with someone who calls other users ignorant philistines. When you lose the attitude, and dare I say, apologize, then we can get to the task of addressing your content-related concerns. - CobaltBlueTony™ _talk 18:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, I strongly object to the comment that I do NOT accept the legimitacy of others comments. However, such aired objections and comments by SOLE complainant (as were deleted) that the San Francisco Chronicle, et al, is NOT a legitimate news source would be considered bizarre to many in the wiki community, too, not just myself...--Art4em (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I strongly beg to differ, since you came late into the discussion, let me outline my grievence in the first instance:

1. My Party Down Scandal was tagged for deletion. Fine, I have no problem with that. 2. I and others posted our claim to examine the tag...and we deserved a fair hearing in the Discussion Page (re: not the deleted forum). This is standard/proper proceedure. 3. There was strong support in FAVOR of the article. 4. The article was deleted, period. I have a problem with that. No debate ensured -- only injustice and unfair practice / against wiki protocol. 5. Now then, I have asked you many times to instill justice and protocol against the harsh treatment. Hence my frustration at your suppport against wiki protocol and editorial injustices. 6. Now you ask me to apologize for having my pages deleted against wiki protocol? You gotta be kidding? You want me to say, "Geez, I am sorry my pages got instantly deleted!" I gotta send Andrew Kean a copy of this request....

--Art4em (talk) 18:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

All involved: This is Wikiquette Alerts. The purpose of this page is to help resolve personal disputes and matters of civility through informal mediation. This is not a noticeboard for resolving content disputes, requesting deletion reviews, or otherwise dealing with non-civility matters. If you want to resolve a civility issue, please keep the discussion on this page focused on that - we cannot help you with the content discussion. To discuss and resolve matters of deleted pages, please request a deletion review in the appropriate forum.

Art4em: The above comments include several diffs of statements made by you that (a) blatantly assume bad faith and (b) are personal attacks against other editors. You have been asked to apologize for those specific statements, not necessarily any related content issues. Please go read WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF and WP:NPA, and make sure you are familiar with them - there are plenty of ways to conduct a content discussion without resorting to personal attacks. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 18:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Note: this comment documents Art4em's uncivil response to content discussion, the issue at hand. Art4em: Please read carefully. Debate 's concerns were specific, that "Art Issues, San Francisco e-Mail, Mark Van Proyen, Sept - Oct 1999, Vol. 59, Los Angeles, CA" was not found, and that a "received email" section in any paper would be "unlikely to contain a particularly rigorous independent overview"; and that "Kenneth Baker, San Francisco Chronicle, "LG Williams at Wirtz", July 17, 1999", in its entirety was neither "a particularly rigorous independent overview". Just because a name appears in a notable media outlet does not mean that such constitutes significant (nontrivial) coverage, per WP:NOTE#General_notability_guideline. That is Debate 's argument, not the notability or reliability of the source. You really need to review carefully his objections and ask questions before lashing out. - CobaltBlueTony™ _talk 19:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, Tony, I appreciate your time. You just do not know the facts, I am sorry. I don't blame you, Debate speedily deleted the commentary from the article, too. For your information, the primary Party Down Scandal citation was not deemed a credible print source offhand by Debate, despite its being on the front page of Daily Californian. That important and vital resource to the East Bay was deemed 'ridiculous' off hand by said editor -- despite it being in Wiki-pedia's Top 5 ranking of journalism schools in the country. Respectfully, --Art4em (talk) 19:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, I fully appreciate your time. After many attempts to get my case and grievance understood and addressed, I will concede that consideration a total loss. Now then, I must admit, that I am at a total loss as to what you are referring to? The Party Down Scandal primary content consisted in a front-page article and review of the Party Down incident. There may have been additional/supplemental material to support the primary citation, therefore, am I to assume you want me to defend the secondary supplemental sources first?

Please let me know how you want to address Party Down Scandal, Respectfully, --Art4em (talk) 19:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, I think some of Art4em's WP:CIVIL] and WP:NPA violations have already extended to the point where a block might be in order. Forget about whether these articles belong or not, you can't go around calling other good-faith editors "morons" and "ignorant". --Jaysweet (talk) 19:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Sweet...at least everyone is consistent. --Art4em (talk) 20:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Art4em, you seem to be missing the point. Let me put it plainly and simply: The WAY you responded to having your articles deleted was out of line. It broke several policies stemming from WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Your request to have the deletions reviewed, and your complaints about the way in which the articles were deleted - those are fine, and nobody has an issue with you voicing your concerns about them. But the fact that you basically called other editors "philistines" and "morons", and accused them of "ignorance and errors beyond belief", is not acceptable behavior. It will get you blocked for being disruptive. You need to separate your behavior from the content issue - they are two separate problems. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Kiefer, thank you for your comment, I appreciate the time.

No, I am not missing any points (my and many other editors many points and objections were quickly deleted to hide my polite behavior and requests to adhere to wiki protocol); and yes, you are correct.

My adverse reaction to the speedy deletion of several of my pages which 'broke several wiki' policies against my and other requests -- including the discussion pages where I and many others were engaged in 'fair' discussion -- was unnecessary. Truly, I have better things to do like making excellent, erudite wiki pages like Wally Hedrick and House Where The Bottom Fell Out.

Unfortunately, the next time common sense, 'fair play' and wiki policies are thrown to the wind and my pages are summarily deleted against wiki policy, it now appears that I do have a few interested 'fair play' editors that I can contact immediately to monitor any rouge acting editors. I hope I can count you as one. Respectfully, --Art4em (talk) 19:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Rest assured, I won't be taking sides. I trust that you've read WP:CSD by now, but in case you haven't, there's the link. It describes the reasons why an article may be speedily-deleted. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much, I am resting much easily now. And you can trust that I have read your link...as well as the others, provided. All of them did not pertain to my deleted pages, unfortunately: as you can see in my "discussion pages".

Moreover, I trust that you have read the links for the proper protocol for suspending speedy deletions until 'fair claim' disputes have been resolved? If not, I can supply you with the links. Respectfully, --Art4em (talk) 18:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for butting in, but please do provide links. I've never heard of 'fair claim' disputes and I am always willing to learn more about Wikipedia. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 18:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

No problem, thank you [SheffieldSteel]:

"Where reasonable doubt exists for a potential deleted article, discussion using (A) another method under the deletion policy should occur instead. (B) If a page has survived a prior deletion discussion, it may not be speedily deleted". The deletion of my pages occurred despite (A) and (B). Of course, the record of this has been deleted.

Additonally:

"If you disagree: Any editor who disagrees with a proposed deletion can simply remove the tag. Even after the page is deleted, any editor can have the page restored by any administrator simply by asking. In both cases the editor is encouraged to fix the perceived problem with the page." I was never "encouraged" to fix any problems, ever. Of course, the record of this has been deleted.

MOST IMPORTANTLY:

"These processes are not decided through a head count, so participants are encouraged to explain their opinion and refer to policy. The discussion lasts at least five days; afterwards, pages are deleted by an administrator if there is consensus to do so. (THERE WAS NO CONCENSUS IN MY DELETED PAGES PERIOD -- NOR WAS MY PAGES GIVEN FIVE DAYS.) [MOST IMPORTANTLY: ]If there is no rough consensus, the page is kept and is again subject to normal editing, merging or redirecting as appropriate. (THIS LAST SENTENCE IS MOST PERTINENT TO MY CASE...)

Wiki policy was clearly thrown to the wind in my case, on every count of the above...hence my absolute frustration on all counts. I am asking a 'fair minded' administrator to reinstate my pages to let protocol rule the day in fairness and fair practice. So consensus and fair practice may rule the day. Respectfully, --Art4em (talk) 19:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Art4em is confusing (I think) an AfD discussion with discussion across various talkpages about the the existence/notability of the Party Down scandal. Restoring the Party Down scandal article and submitting it to AfD would I think address the frustration that Art4em feels about the article's deletion. If this happens, I'm sure Art4em would be able to accept the final decision and show himself to be a constructive editor.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 20:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the kind words on my behalf...the first honest ones during this trying process...--72.253.115.109 (talk) 07:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, I think Art4em has conflated CSD with prod with AfD. These are three separate processes. The "five days" he/she refers to are only for AfD discussions (and even then WP:SNOWBALL provides an exception to that). The "any user can remove this tag" refers only to the prod process -- removing a CSD tag can be done, but not by the original user; and nobody should remove an AfD tag except the closing admin. The "encouraged to fix" language means that if an article is tagged, you should fix it; it does not mean that other users are under a compulsion to encourage you to fix it (although I think we all agree the project would be better off if that were standard practice).

As far as all of these "The record was deleted" assertions, that should not be the case if the article went through the AfD process. Most of the policy you quote, particularly that regarding consensus, refers to the AfD process. If there is no record, there is no AfD.

You may also want to check the WP:Deletion Review policy.

In any case, I think that all transcends the scope of this page, which is specifically about etiquette. The only breach of etiquette I see here was Art4em's remarks about other editors being "ignorant" "pharisees," and he has apologized for that and understands it is not acceptable. If he does it again, he should be blocked for incivility; otherwise, there are better places to continue this discussion (e.g. WP:Deletion Review) --Jaysweet (talk) 20:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, let me spell it out to you in black and white, again and again: I am addressing the whole lack of wiki protocol on every level of my deleted pages. From bizarre beginning to horrific ending..and I will address your 'conflations' and confusions when I get a moment...Thank you...--72.253.115.109 (talk) 07:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Problems spreading outward from AfD

Resolved

 – to the original poster's satisfaction SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 18:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The debate over Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Epicaricacy got even more heated when User:Sur_de_Filadelfia suddenly turned up from Philadelphia, where the creator and chief defender of "epicaricacy" is an active Wikipedian. This new participant, who agrees with his co-Philadelphian on every point regarding both epicaricacy and schadenfreude, has combined defense of the article with some angry personal attacks. [2], e.g. "What the hell is wrong with Betsy Devine? ... Somebody should slap Betsy Devine's hands for abusing process."

User:Dhartung kindly intervened, leaving a template uw-npa1 on User_talk:Sur_de_Filadelfia plus the personal comment "You may want to reconsider whether this edit summary really qualifies as "snide". As an uninvolved editor, I don't see it. Take a deep breath and step back a bit." Instead of calming things down, as the rest of us have been trying to do, s/he last night broadened his efforts into 1) nominating Betsy Devine for AfD, 2) accusing other Wikipedians of copyvio because there is material in common between the two articles epicaricacy and schadenfreude. Several editors tried to explain Wikipedia practice, but this morning he has now blanked the latter and filed a different copyvio claim, asserting that its one paragraph description of material from a much longer NYT article is a copyvio. [3] I am a great believer in WP:FAITH, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that this behavior is aimed more at distressing the editors who disagree with him than it is at improving Wikipedia. Can someone help? betsythedevine (talk) 15:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• Because of your edits to epicaricacy. I saw the vanity Bio. Sorry, but I call them like I see them. Sur de Filadelfia (talk) 01:05, 15 May 2008

(UTC)

• When I filed this alert, I was worried that you were just starting a wider attack on Wikipedians who disagreed with you. But now I see you have come under investigation as a sock puppet of a banned account South Philly, an account that was previously investigated as a sockpuppet of Evrik, the user whose position in this AfD you have so very angrily been defending. So I am hopeful that problems will no longer be spreading outward from this AfD. Thanks to the admins and others who responded. Somebody can mark this closed, as far as I'm concerned. betsythedevine (talk) 12:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Ned Scott

User:Ned Scott is making comments which breach our policies and guidance. [4], [5], [6], [7], I have tried to raise the matter with the user, but it is escalating the issue, User talk:Ned Scott#Civility and personal attacks. Hiding T 12:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I apologized for the edit summary one, and even stopped editing after I made it, realizing I had gotten to heated about it. The last one, [8], doesn't break Wikiquette, so I don't even know why you mention it. As for the other two, I'll agree they broke Wikiquette. I probably shouldn't have said the "fool" comment to you, Hidding, but I stand by my "bullshit" comment to Vassyana. I don't know what you think posting here will do about any of this. -- Ned Scott 12:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

In the last one you state "Don't act stupid". That doesn't seem to assume good faith. I hope posting here will garner outside opinion on the issue. Hiding T 13:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I offer my observations and a suggestion. Vassyana is working on some policy debate which I won't get into, but which is clearly intense for several interested editors. Ned Scott I think has spoken in haste and realises it now. I am satisfied by his apology here and I think Hiding should be too, and not press this complaint further. To you Ned Scott I point out that certain words you have posted are uncivil and could be removed without any loss of the useful points you make. I suggest that you do exactly that. I don't see any policy to hinder one from applying WP:RPA to one's own posts, and to do so would certainly regain for you a high moral ground (and incidentally respect from me). Your good nature will doubtless guide you in this decision. Here is a specific list of the words that you surely can excise:

Bullshit. Thanks for making the situation worse, and sticking your nose in a situation you don't even understand.

Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting.

..you guys have your panties in a bind because..

Jebus people,..

You don't go acting like a fool like you did and remove sections of policy because you're having your period.

Don't act stupid, Percy, you know full well...

It's like you're one of those typo nazis... Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Cuddlyable3. These are the points I am trying to get across, but perhaps not doing so as well. I am indeed happy with the apology. All the best, Hiding T 09:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I was going to start a thread here regarding Ned Scott's recent comments but I see this one is open already. In the past three days, Ned has made comments like:

• 21:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC): "If you guys want to freak out because of some recent discussions on this particular talk page, then get a grip. Wikipedia is more than this talk page, and that section doesn't suddenly lose support because a hand full of Wikipedians have their panties in a bind."[9]
• 21:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC): "We owe it to the project to consider things beyond this talk page, and to not be so shallow that we flip out right away because of some recent discussion where some people got all pissy."[10]
• 04:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC): "Your interpretation that he can't start a section heading is moronic"[11]
• 04:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC): "And for the love of god, the entire point of his restriction was to make him take these issues to the talk page."[12]
• 06:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "Jesus, what's wrong with you?" and "You have no clue about TTN, do you?"[13]
• 11:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "I'm sorry you guys have your panties in a bind because there's some users who don't apply things from WP:NOT correctly, and misunderstand what it says. Jebus people, that's been a problem for every single WP:NOT entry"[14]
• 11:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "I'm going to start a list of every time you say something so mind-blowingly stupid and false. Do you think the protecting admin gives a crap about the dispute?" and "Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting."[15]
• 11:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "You don't go acting like a fool like you did and remove sections of policy because you're having your period."[16]
• 13:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC): "Let me repeat something, since you are having such a hard time understanding it" and "And on a side note, it is shameful the way you are campaigning to drive TTN off the project because of what amounts to a content dispute. Who's next? Will you be supporting a bogus block on me if it suits your needs?"[17]
• 04:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC): "You guys don't even know what you're talking about"[18]

I understand that Ned thinks TTN's recent block was completely unjustified and that Ned has a different interpretation than me of the restrictions imposed on TTN. And I understand that Ned supports keeping WP:PLOT in WP:NOT while I support its removal. I can understand it if he's frustrated. But I think comments like "I'm going to start a list of every time you say something so mind-blowingly stupid and false." and "Damn it, Pixelface, the adults would like to have a nice conversation now, could you please knock off all the nonsensical ranting."[19] are absolutely uncalled for and are a breach of the civility policy as well as the no personal attacks policy. In the past I have said I was happy to have Ned as a fellow editor and fellow human being, but he has lost all the respect I have for him with his latest remarks. --Pixelface (talk) 07:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note, many of these comments are already being dealt with above. I'm not sure we need to quote the full text of the remarks, I believe diffs are all that is necessary. Ned has already apologised above, so I think we can leave it there? Hiding T 09:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Apologized to whom? --Pixelface (talk) 18:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
    • To the community. -- Ned Scott 04:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
      • And I stand by most of those above example comments you've listed, Pixel. Most of them are examples of frustrations, but are not necessarily uncivil. Regardless if you've lost all respect for me, I still have some respect for you. Life isn't so black and white that we have to hate someone just because of a few disputes. -- Ned Scott 04:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
        • I don't hate you. I said I no longer respect you. If you don't think those comments are uncivil, I don't know what to say. And the only thing black and white about this is you acting like Jekyll and Hyde. --Pixelface (talk) 11:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ned Scott I represent the community that you claim to have apologised to. The Wikipedia community can tolerate an occasional expression of "bullshit". It can not tolerate the collateral damage you are causing by sustained incivility viz. the examples we see above. Your intemperate speech deters people from joining a discussion where you take part. That, and not anyone's "hate" that you may imagine, will be the reason for likely administrative action to block you for a while from tainting Wikipedia further with your "frustrations". (I am not an administrator.) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Abuse by Scheinwerfermann

User:Scheinwerfermann has twice referred to ongoing discussion at Talk:Fuel_injection as "a pissing contest" with me. On that page he also directs the following surprising prose to me:

....As to competitive urination, invitation doesn't enter into it. It's sort of like a spontaneous orgy: Nobody's invited, everyone just knows to come! Here, have some loo roll. You appear to need it. Friendly greetings from someplace that is not America! --Scheinwerfermann 20:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Since I am about to propose new improvements to the fuel injection page in a spirit of seeking consensus with other editors, it would be valuable to get guidance first from others about the civility of the discussion to date. (I expect that Scheinwerfermann will want to comment on what I shall propose, and that user may need firm reminding of WP:NPA policy, even after he was explicitly alerted to the WP:RPA essay last year.)Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Derek.cashman's edit summary

Resolved

A GA (New York State Route 308) that I had contributed to recently got delisted by Derek.cashman (talk · contribs), on the grounds that it wasn't complete and comprehensive. Being a fairly short route, the article contains as much information as it can. Anyway, I brought it to GAR, and in the nomination statement I accidentally misspelled his name. Thus, he proceeded to violate WP:CIVIL in an edit summary to fix the typo. Aside from that, he edited my comment, which is not allowed. If somebody can help me out with this, it'd be great. Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 23:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I took a look at it. The editing of other's comments is generally frowned upon, that is true. However, I do note that the GAR tends to be going in your favor. Also, there may be a chance that he was merely making a good faith edit to your comment and was not trying to offend you--who knows? Lazulilasher (talk) 00:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment Oops, I just saw the edit summary...that is disappointing. Well, again, it does seem like the GAR is leaning towards re-listing, maybe it would be good to just ignore his comment? Lazulilasher (talk) 00:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

It may have been in GF, but his edit summary certainly wasn't. It does appear that the GAR is going well, but again, I feel such comments shouldn't be taken lightly. Thanks for taking a look, Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 00:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ya, the edit summary was a bit rough. I warned him with the no personal attacks template and left a message. Lazulilasher (talk) 00:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for that. I just hope this doesn't escalate too much. Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 01:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Me too. I removed the nasty template message I'd originally placed and left the note as it is more polite and personal. Id just leave the situatuon be- he may have meant it lighty. lazulilasher (editing from mobile device...cannot find tilda key...)

Very well, I'll try to leave the situation alone. Thank you for your help, Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 02:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

After re-reviewing the article in question, I have closed the GAR and relisted the article. I apologize about the confusion. As for the edit comments, I didn't think people even read those stupid things anyway, so the comment was more just reflecting my own thoughts about everyone constantly misspelling my name and not really directed at any particular user. Sorry about that. Dr. Cash (talk) 15:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

No worries. Thank you so much for being civil and understanding! The thing with edit summaries is that many people look at their watchlists--and the only thing that shows is the edit summary--not the actual edit. So, it can easily be miscontrued. I had a feeling that that was what had happened. No worries and again, thank you for your civility and happy editing! Lazulilasher (talk) 17:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

insulting behavior

Wiki editor User:Tool2Die4 has engaged in rude and insulting behavior. He/she has used an insulting tone in our discussions and called me a "d-bag" (douche-bag) in their edit history on multiple occasions. This child-like behavior is unacceptable to me. I am not trying to be overly sensitive, yet I feel this behavior needs to be addressed. Any help will be appreciated. Thank you. --DreamsAreMadeOf (talk) 03:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are being overly sensitive, and childish. You got called out for not knowing the Wikipedia MoS, and now you are getting defensive. Grow up. Tool2Die4 (talk) 03:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I said for you you to revert my edit since the award info was mentioned in the next paragraph. This is about your insults. Thanks.--DreamsAreMadeOf (talk) 03:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

So long as you stay away from my talk page, the matter is closed. Is this understood? There is literally no reason for you to ever edit my talk page again. Hopefully I have spelled this out clearly. This discussion is over. Tool2Die4 (talk) 03:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on your talk page is not prohibited, however, I will not post on there anymore. This matter is not closed since you totally avoid the actual issue. This has nothing to do with MoS. It is about your rudeness. Thanks. --DreamsAreMadeOf (talk) 03:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Whatever the argument, calling people names is not acceptable. Using edit summaries to repeatedly abuse another user is clearly a lot more childish than objecting to being abused. Wikpedia is not about winning arguments or calling people out in a puerile fashion, neither is it about addressing other users in a patronising manner, as shown here. Bretonbanquet (talk) 03:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Bretonbanquet thank you for taking the time to address this minor issue. I know this is not one of the more pressing issues at the moment, but I feel it needed to be addressed. I would like an apology, but I don't have any illusions. Without further input I consider this issue resolved. Thanks again for your time. --DreamsAreMadeOf (talk) 03:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Kmweber and Rfas

Hello User:Kmweber aka "Kurt Weber" Has Opposed all the Rfas Based on the sole Fact they are Self-noms.

• Guest9999
• Fordmadoxfraud
• Bluegoblin7
• Vivio Testarossa
• Zinder
• Kumioko

Sincerely,

Trees Rock ^{Plant A Tree} 23:33, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussed 1000 times, said they're okay 1000 times, nothing to see here, move along. Wizardman 23:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

• This has already been an RFC and been supported, not as to content but as to a right to oppose,--Cube lurker (talk) 23:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I've removed the warning from Kurt's talkpage and issued extremely strong words of advice to User:Trees Rock, as this is the second time today they've made spurious allegations of "incivility" without bothering to read any of the relevant policy or discussion. — iridescent 23:55, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Refer you to Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship#An_idea_that_might_make_all_sides_happy_-_self_noms. Trees Rock ^{Plant A Tree} 00:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean the discussion where editor after editor is telling you to stop being disruptive, given that this has already been discussed ad nauseam. Please stop being disruptive. — iridescent 00:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the appropriate tag for this discussion is {{Round In Circles}}. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 00:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

User:WalterMitty

User:WalterMitty has resisted changes to the article on Stephen Hendry, which I have put forward and provided extensive citations for. During the discussion he has expressed considerably incivility, instructing me to 'grow up', claiming aribraily that I 'clearly do not know very much' and not engaging in proper discussion. He has also, rather than discussing or moving alterations, deleted citations that I provided. When an administrator (gwernol) intervened, he was less than civil to him also, and in a continued dicussion on Gwernol's talk page, claimed that I was 'obviously a fan trying to bias the article', which I am not and he chose to throw as an accusation with no basis. Before being banned for 24 hours for breaching 3RR, he chose to simply continue to revert edits and stopped engaging in any justification on the discussion page, despite my arguments responding to his claims and requesting he offer new explanation if he reverted again. I have been advised by gwernol to seek dispute resolution, which I have done. I'd appreciate any help as regards this behaviour. Jleadermaynard (talk) 18:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The dispute as such looks resolved, as User:WalterMitty has a 6 month block.

That said, I don't think you were well-advised, as a very new user who has only worked on a couple of articles, to rapidly escalate this dispute up to a Mediation Cabal Case. It's a pretty trivial content issue where it would have been better to ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Snooker or a Wikipedia:Requests for comment in the sport category for wider opinion (and ask for it tersely and neutrally - "Should it say X or Y?" - not as some kind of appeal for people to see it your way).

I strongly advise you not to start out with the idea that disagreements over content are best solved by quasi-legal dispute procedures. (It's a common problem - generally characterised as wikilawyering - with editors who have backgrounds in adversarial rule-based discourse, such as law or debating). It's far better to get a broad consensus than to focus on slugging it out to overpower editors who disagree.

Personally, I think User:WalterMitty was utterly wrong in conduct, but right in his view of the content issue. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 16:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Gordonofcartoon, irrespective of the content issue, to clarify, I'm not a very new user - this is just a new account, though I certainly wouldn't put myself up as an expert at this kind of thing as my writings and ammendements haven't been causes of controversy before. As for refering to Mediation Cabal, I did so because I was advised to by an administrator, who as I understand it acted properly given WalterMitty's behaviour to him, myself, and as regards Wikipedia rules. The point of the dispute is WalterMitty is, in my eyes, attempting to block an accurate assesment of the snooker world, a statement of the kind that has been applied without contention to other sports pages on wikipedia, to figures whose applicability to that status is if anything more contentious than Hendry's. WalterMitty's opposition to this has been without sourced backing and contrary to consensus snooker opinion I've provided evidence for. I appreciate your points but I don't see how that's not something worth raising as a problem. Jleadermaynard (talk) 22:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a very new user - this is just a new account

Fair enough, but my comments still stand. To take it to Mediation looks to me overkill when the options of just getting more input hadn't been used. As does posting it near-simultaneously to Editor assistance/Requests, Wikiquette alerts and Mediation Cabal. One at a time... Gordonofcartoon (talk) 23:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

User:AtonX versus User:CoolKoon

User:CoolKoon (sk:User:CoolKoon) repeatedly posts attacking comments following his ban on the Slovak wikipedia due to his vandalising and aggressive behaviour. He has been banned by me for 2 hours for aggressive and threatening comments, to which he responded with more aggressive and attacking comments against me and other editors and administrators. This resulted in his repeated banning by another administrator on sk:Wikipedia. Now he posts abusive comments on my talk page on the en:Wikipedia. I have removed his first attack from my talk page, which he immediately reverted for the abusive comment to reappear. His personal attacks have been dealt with on the Slovak Wikipedia and I seek that this recurrent issue be addressed on the English-language Wikipedia as well. --AtonX (talk) 10:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I have never attacked AtonX on the English Wikipedia. Unfortunately the Slovak Wikipedia has many administrators which seem to have an anti-Hungarian POV and view any of their moves as a personal attack. I was treated with hostility on the Slovak Wikipedia ever since I came there despite the fact that I've been trying to discuss my difference of opinions with MarkBA in an objective and calm manner. CoolKoon (talk) 10:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It will difficult to find someone who can help mediate here, since the comments in question are not in English, heh... One suggestion I might have: If the problem is restricted to comments left on AtonX's talk page, might I suggest that you two agree to just not edit each other's talk pages? --Jaysweet (talk) 18:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Agreed. CoolKoon (talk) 18:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

CoolKoon' ban on the Slovak wikipedia is classifying AtonX as Slovakian administrator.CoolKoon has done lots of valuable works here and on the Slovakian wiki. But I am thinking of AtonX that He is an ultra agressive vandal and his prejudiced complain is an Hungarian ethnic slander. Otherwise the Slovakian wiki is a very low standard website.Nmate (talk) 20:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's not muddy the waters. CoolKoon has agreed not to leave comments on AtonX's talk page. I am just waiting for AtonX to respond, and if he says that's okay, then this is resolved, and there is no need for further finger-pointing. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I have never edited CoolKoon's talk page, except notifying him of this alert as required by the procedure. I also do not intend to edit his talk page in the future and I wish that he himself removes his last comment from my talk page. I have never participated in any discussion with him or with Nmate on any other talk page on any other subject either, and hence I strongly object to Nmate's blatant accusations. (As for valuable work of CoolKoon on the Slovak wiki, let it speak for itself - sk:Special:Contributions/CoolKoon: 33 edits total, 3 in main namespace, 1 in talk, 3 in user, 21 user talk, 5 template, 2 moves, and two bans for threats and extremely rude personal comments). --AtonX (talk) 13:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

CoolKoon posted his attacks while he was under editing restrictions from ArbCom's Digwuren case. He was put under restrictions by User:Elonka on April 18, 2008[20]. The restrictions explicitly say: "The restriction shall specify that, should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below." CoolKoon comment was not exactly civil. He called another editor a "pussy" and two editors "stupid" (see [21] for his original comment in Slovak). Another possible breach of the Wikiquette happened on this very page, when User:Nmate called User:AtonX "an ultra agressive vandal" and his legitimate complaint here a "Hungarian ethnic slander".[22] Nmate is also under editing restrictions from ArbCom's Digwuren case[23] and he is not supposed to post uncivil comments. Tankred (talk) 15:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Cooljuno411

User:Cooljuno411 has been making insulting comments towards others over at Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates, under the California Same-Sex Marriage section.

His most recent comments on the board were: "BITCH PLEASE, Don't y'all give me that shit. You were all bitch'n in page lengths about why it shouldn't be there, how it effects you, and blah blah blah. Now i guess when he going gets ruff, all you can say is "why do you care?". Your a fuck'n ignorant and hypocritical peace of shit. Go fuck'n vandalize a page or something, your low-life-ness is not need on this talk page."

I, for one, do not appeciate the comments. I have asked him to stop, though I admit not in the best possible way, but he continues to make these rude comments. --PlasmaTwa2 23:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)