Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. 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Current disputes

Talk:Pallava dynasty

– This request has been placed on hold.

Filed by LovSLif on 09:13, 16 July 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Pallava dynasty (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• LovSLif (talk · contribs)

* Destroyer27 (talk · contribs)

• Nittawinoda (talk · contribs)
• Kautilya3 (talk · contribs)
• Abecedare (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This discussion is bound to the Origination or On the 'Origins of Pallava Dynasty'. Very lengthy discussion happened on the Talk page.The discussion was initiated for the addition of Mythological origin. In the course of discussion, the core content of the initial discussion was sidelined and finally ended up pushing a new POV content into the article's Origins section under the term 'Kanchi Theory'.The content is purely based on WP:OR. I have verified both the edited versions as well as original sources and found the content is against my CONSENSUS.The actuality of 'Kanchi Theory' as an 'origination' is not supported by the sources. I believe the 'Possibility of a dynasty which was already existing/originated and later raising to the power in a particular region, post capturing it from other dynasty' cannot be assigned as an origination theory. During the discussion,A new etymology section was also created in the article which is again a POV content relying on poor sources. The discussion moderated was closed off without the acceptance of all participants. I trust DRN team would thoroughly review the sources and its corresponding content and that is why I am raising a dispute over here.I will bind by the final result.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have fully supported voluntary moderation by user Kautilya3 but no CONSENSUS arrived at.

How do you think we can help?

I request DRN team to review the sources and its corresponding content to decide on the actuality of the content written under 'kanchi theory'.

Summary of dispute by Destroyer27

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Nittawinoda

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

As Kautilya3 has mentioned below, the other editor LovSLif had a dispute with Destroyer27 regarding the origin section of Pallava dynasty. At this point I did my own research and requested that a few more theories regarding the origin of Pallavas be added. Kautilya3 volunteered to moderate the discussion and I must say that he/she did a pretty good job; was very patient and thorough when it came to hearing both sides and clarifying the references. During the discussion it became apparent that LovSLif wanted to keep only theories that were favorable to him/her, that is in this case the Andhra origin theories and the user rejected other theories proposed by other notable historians like for example:

1. As per historians Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund, the original nucleus and domain of the Pallavas was Tondaimandalam, which served as the base for their power. [1]

2. Prof. R. Sathianathaier also maintains that the Pallavas originated from Tondaimandalam [2]

I am satisfied and broadly agree with the draft proposed by Kautilya3. As for LovSLif, the editor does not seem to understand primary sources, original research and npov. He/she insisted on interpreting inscriptions and grants on his own and wants to include or reject theories based upon his own interpretation and is adamant that other theories by notable historians must not be included. Nittawinoda (talk) 15:38, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Summary of dispute by Kautilya3

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I got involved with this page when Abecedare asked me to help to resolve the dispute concerning the origins of the Pallava dynasty. The dispute at that time was between Destroyer27 and LovSLif. Later it became one between Nittawinoda and LovSLif. I asked both the editors to recommend high-level WP:HISTRS that are at the level of "History of India". When the sources they presented were not of this kind, I did my own search and found two multi-volume Histories of India which have chapters devoted to the Pallava dynasty contributed by top Indian historians of the 1960s. The two sets of scholars took opposite points of view. So I said that both the viewpoints were notable and proposed content summarising thei respective viewpoints with WP:In-text attribution. Nittawinoda was satisfied with my summaries but LovSLif was apparently not satisfied. The nature of his objections has not been clear from what he writes. Thus we ended up here.

The content that I proposed is now on the main page: Pallava dynasty#Origins. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:24, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I did not get involved with the Pallava dynasty#Etymoogy section. Any disputes concerning it are not yet ripe for DRN. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:28, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Summary of dispute by Abecedare

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

My role in this dispute has been to (1) as an admin, warn/guide the participants to try to keep the discussion on-track, and (2) request Kautilya3, as an knowledgeable editor in the area uninvolved in the original dispute between LovSLif and Destroyer27, to take a look at the content issues (aside: and I appreciate the time they have devoted to the issue in response!).

I don't have any pre-set views on the central content issue(s) per se, and the DRN should be able to proceed without my participation. Abecedare (talk) 15:43, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Pallava dynasty discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer comment just chiming in to point out that one of the parties to this dispute, Destroyer27 is currently indef-blocked for socking and looking at their talk page I would not expect them to come back any time soon. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:04, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - The preconditions for moderated discussion have been met, in that there has been lengthy discussion on the article talk page, and the other parties have been notified. There has been an effort at moderated discussion already, which did not result in resolution. A volunteer is requested to try to conduct a second round of moderated discussion. I am not optimistic that a second round of moderated discussion will work better than the first, but we will try. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:09, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Possible zeroth statement by moderator

I will ask a few questions to see whether moderated discussion is feasible. It appears that one of the participants in the previous mediation was User:Kautilya3, who was attempting to mediate, and another was User:Abecedare, who is an administrator who sometimes facilitates mediation, so that they were not principals. One of the principals was User:LovSLif. Was the dispute between LovSLif and User:Nittawinoda, or with User:Destroyer27, who is a blocked sockpuppet? If it was between LovSLif and Nittawinoda, will each of them please state, in one or two paragraphs, what they think was the dispute, and how the article needs to be improved? Also, if LovSLif is not satisfied with the mediation, will they please state, in one paragraph, how they disagree with the mediation? Comment on content, not contributors. Be civil and concise. Please reply within 36 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:25, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Zeroth answers by editors

• Nittawinoda's comments

As I mentioned above, I agree with Kautilya3's draft of the origin section in the article Pallava dynasty. Currently I do not have a problem as this is what is in the article page Pallava_dynasty#Origins. In addition, I want the following theories added if not already,

1. As per historians Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund, the original nucleus and domain of the Pallavas was Tondaimandalam, which served as the base for their power. [3]

2. Prof. R. Sathianathaier also maintains that the Pallavas originated from Tondaimandalam [4]

3. The ancestor of the Pallavas was born out of a union of Aswattama and naga princess (already in article and source provided by Kautilya3)

4. "The immediate conquerors of the Andhras were the Pallavas who seemed to have risen to power suddenly in the south. Starting from Kanchi, their capital, they extended their empire northwards, till it included Vengi Nadu."

5. As per historian C.Rasanayagam, "The Pallavas are considered to be the descendants of Tondaiman Ilam Tiraiyan the offspring of Chola King Killivalavan and naga princess Pilivalai, the latter being the daughter of king Valaivanan of ManiPallavam. The dynasty took its name (Pallava) after the name of the mother's kingdom manipallavam."

As per my understanding, LovSlif wants the Kanchi theory scrapped from the article. If he wants the whole section removed then I object but if it is just the nomenclature, for example, I do not mind renaming the "Kanchi theory" to something like "Tondaimandalam origin theory" etc. Points 1, 2 and 3 above are somewhat there in the current version. I would like to add points 4 and 5 if possible. Thanks, Nittawinoda (talk) 15:17, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

References

• LovSLif's comments

I want to clarify that I do not want complete Kanchi theory paragraph struck.I want the term Kanchi Theory to be excluded as this is not the region of origin.It was the the region occupied at later point to strengthen their position.I also disagree adding D.C Sircar as 'proponent of Kanchi theory'.I have provided my explanation on the same at [5].

I believe below is what should be added to make the article balanced. Here is what should be added.

1. It is agreed that the maternal side of the Pallavas is the Nagas. Well the Nagas were likely Telugu speakers. As per the work of D. Ananda Naidu,Gangisetti Lakshminarayana, and V. Gopalakrsna, who were published by Dravidian University (partly funded by Tamil Nadu's government): "The language of the Nagas appears to be Telugu, which the earliest reference to which is found to be in the earliest Tamil-grammar, the Tolkappiyam (5th Century AD)". B. Ramaraju similarly says that the Nagas were closely connected with Andhra. To quote him, "This is a prehistoric celebration of Naga or serpent-worship observed throughout Andhra. Buddhistic and other records mention that once Naga tribes inhabited this part of the country called 'Nagabhumi' (land of the serpent god). Every village in Andhra has some or other Naga idol carved in stone or wood.” Hence, this should be added in.

2. I want the Etymology section clarified. The word Pallava is clearly of Sanskrit origin and this should be clearly mentioned. I also want to mention that according to the Velurpalaiyam Copperplates, the first Pallava ruler's father was named Chutu Pallava. This also puts into question their so-called Chola heritage, which they never acknowledged.

3. I want it to be clearly mentioned that no Tamil inscriptions were issued by the Pallavas, that are found to date, until the late 6th century or early 7th century, which is well after they were established.

4. I want to include K.R Subramanian as another historian that supports the Andhra origin theory.

In regards to Nittawinoda's recommendations: - Firstly, Chenchiah Bhujanga is a Telugu language scholar. A prior scholar of the side that I am advocating for was sidelined because he was not a historian but a literary figure. Chenchiah Bhujanga fits in to the same category more or less. His claim to fame is a book about a history of Telugu Literature and he is not a trained a historian, but a scholar on the Telugu language. I will not agree to include him in this article.

- Secondly, Aswattama liason is a legend and not History.Also, the claim about the Pallavas being the child of the Cholas in untenable at best. TV. Mahanlingam, note a Tamilian, writes "The explanation of Naccinarkkiniyar that Ilantiraiyan was an illegitimate son of a Cola king and a Naga princess is "patently absurd". In fact, given the context of the conflicts between the Pallavas and the Cholas, no wonder the Tamil commentators made the Pallavas out to be illegitimate sons.

References

By LovSLif (talk) 07:05, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

First statement by moderator

Okay. We will try moderated discussion. Please read DRN Rule A and follow it. Do not edit the article. Be civil and concise. Remember that civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia and especially in dispute resolution. Overly long statements have only one value, to make the person posting them feel better, but they do not clarify the issue. Comment on content, not on contributors. (We seem to be focusing on content at this time, which is good.)

The statements made by the editors are long and need to be trimmed. Will each editor please identify one change that they want made at this time having to do with the Origin section? Also, I understand that there are also issues about the Etymology. Will each editor please identify one change that they want made to the Etymology?

First statements by editors should be addressed to me. Do not reply to each other. I am also providing a section for back-and-forth discussion which you may use for that purpose.

Robert McClenon (talk) 17:54, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

First statements by editors

• Statement by Nittawinoda

@Robert McClenon:

I would like the following theory to be added to the origin section:

"Some historians like C Rasanayagam, M.Srinivasa Iyengar have stated that the Pallavas were descendants of Tondaiman Ilam Tiraiyan who was the son of Chola king Killivalavan and Naga princess Pilivalai, daughter of Valaivanan of Manipallavam in Sri Lanka. The dynasty thus came to be called after the mother's native place.. According to the Ulas(historical poems in honor of Chola kings) written by poet Ottakoothar, Killivalavan is said to have married a Naga princess by entering the bilvadara(cave) and also it is known that Tiraiyan was the son of a Chola prince who married the Naga princess, Pilivalai by entering the bilvadara in Nagapattinam. So that Tiraiyan was the son of Killivalavan is not without force".

I would like the following change to Etymology section:

"As per historians Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund, the name Pallava which means leaves or foliage is the Sanskrit equivalent of the the Tamil word tondai which designates their original domain, namely Tondaimandalam."

References

Nittawinoda (talk) 18:50, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

• Statement by LovSLif

@Robert McClenon:

Among other changes, the first and foremost change I want to the Origins sections is the identification of the Nagas as Telugus. Here is the phrasing: "As per the work of various scholars, such as D. Ananda Naidu,Gangisetti Lakshminarayana, and V. Gopalakrsna, the language spoken by the Nagas, who were the maternal line of the Pallavas, was likely Telugu. B. Ramaraju notes that what is now Andhra was called "Nagabhumi", which means land of the Nagas."

In the etymology section, I want the following. The word Pallava is a Sanskrit word that means "leaves or foliage. Tondai is the Tamil equivalent of the word. As per the Velurpalaiyam Copperplates, the first Pallava ruler's father was named Chutu Pallava.

By LovSLif (talk) 03:59, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion

• Dispute LovSLif's statement (Rebuttal by Nittawinoda)

@Robert McClenon: I dispute the following claims by LovSLif.

1. Identification of the Nagas as Telugus - This appears to be original research. I quote from the source provided by LovSLif above " D. Ananda Naidu, Gaṅgiśeṭṭi Lakṣmīnārāyaṇa, Vi Gōpālakr̥ṣṇa. Perspectives of South Indian History and Culture. Dravidian University., 2006. p. 257.":

"In Andhradesa, the Rakshasas, mentioned in the Ramayana, at a later date, appear to have acquired the name of Nagas. The language of the Nagas appears to be Telugu, which the earliest reference to which is to be found in the earliest Tamil- grammar, the Tolkappiyam (5th century A.D.)."

What do the Nagas of Ramayana have to do with the Pallavas? This is completely out of context and has nothing to do with the Pallavas or the origin of the Pallavas for that matter. The Pallavas never mentioned that they married a Naga lady of Telugu origin. In fact, some scholars consider Tondaiman Ilandiraiyan to be the progenitor of the Pallavas and he is said to be the son born out of the union of Chola king Killi and Naga princess Pilivalai of Manipallavam in Sri Lanka. This refers to the Naga people of Sri Lanka and they definitely did not speak Telugu. I request the moderator to review the source more closely before making a decision.

2. As per the Velurpalaiyam Copperplates, the first Pallava ruler's father was named Chutu Pallava - Once again this original research. This is based upon the user's interpretation that Virakurcha, whose father is mentioned as Chutu Pallava, was the first Pallava ruler. As per "History of the Pallavas of Kanchi by R. Gopalan, edited by Sakkottai Krishnaswami Aiyangar, page 51, [6]", I quote, "Again in the Velurpalaiyam plates, it is not stated that Virakurcha who married the naga princess was the first member of the family of the Pallavas..". Moreover some historians like Vijaya Ramasamy, R.Gopalan and many more(mentioned above in my first statement) consider that Tondaiman Ilam tiraiyan was the progenitor of the Pallava dynasty. This being the case, we should not add Chutu Pallava as the father of the first Pallava ruler.

References

Nittawinoda (talk) 16:09, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator

I think that it will be necessary to place this discussion on hold so that we can find another moderator. I have not yet placed it on hold, pending verification of the need for another moderator. However, it appears that the editors expect me, the moderator, to "review the source more closely before making a decision". As a moderator, I do not review the sources because I expect the parties to be able to explain to me what the sources say. Some moderators will review the sources; some expect the editors to present the information to each other and to the moderator. My concept of the role of the moderator is to facilitate discussion between the editors, not to make any decisions. If the editors expect that the moderator will decide on the content, a different moderator is needed.

Each editor should state briefly whether they are satisfied with my concept of the role of the moderator. If either editor is not satisfied, I will have to try to find another moderator, but I am not optimistic about finding another moderator.

I will remind the editors that ArbCom discretionary sanctions apply to disputes about India.

Each editor may also describe one more point that they would like changed in the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:42, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Second statements by editors

• Statement by Nittawinoda

@Robert McClenon: Yes, you are right. I would like a moderator, preferably someone familiar with India/Indian history, who can review the sources and come to a conclusion, similar to how @Kautilya3: did on the article talk page before the other editor came here. This is because, I believe the other editor, LovSLif, is claiming things that are not stated in the sources and presenting his original research. Thanks, Nittawinoda (talk) 19:18, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator

This dispute is placed on hold while we try to find a moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:39, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Talk:2019 AFC Asian Cup

– New discussion.

Filed by Super ninja2 on 17:14, 20 July 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:2019 AFC Asian Cup (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Super ninja2 (talk · contribs)
• Anbans 585 (talk · contribs)
• Wikiemirati (talk · contribs) - indeffed as sockmaster
• Masgouf (talk · contribs) - indeffed as sock of Wikiemirati

Dispute overview

Hello. Me, User:Anbans 585, User:Wikiemirati and User:Masgouf are in dispute about 2019 AFC Asian Cup#Qatar football shirt fan incident. Anbans 585, Wikiemirati and I have have discussed the issue on the article's talk page and the discussion resulted in this but Anbans 585 and Masgouf still disagree with the shape of the paragraph and Wikiemirati insists on adding The National claim that "they have photos of fans waving Qatar flag without being arrested" and refused to compromise, although Anbans 585 and I agreed on removing and concluded that it does not comply with Wikipedia policies but I agreed on adding it eventually and rephrased the text but Wikiemirati and Masgouf think that the rephrase is biased.

I'm not sure if the final shape of the paragraph complies with Wikipedia policies and I wish your help to resolve this dispute.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests#2019 AFC Asian Cup#Qatar football shirt fan incident

How do you think we can help?

You might try to give a neutral-third party opinion

Summary of dispute by Anbans 585

Well most of it has been described by Ninja and Wikiemirati, so I would just like to give my take on the issue. I felt that all the three users had some comments which were a bit biased in one way or other, initially I reverted all the edits which Ninja made, but after he gave an explanation about "Qatar flag without any instances of arrest", I agreed to him and stopped reverting it. Though I think that the rephrasing which he is doing is not okay, and as Wikiemirati mentioned, I think we should add "According to the guardian" and stuff instead of directly mentioning the government. Though I have not reverted Ninja's recent rephrasing in recent days, I do think that it should be reverted as the article seems a bit biased to his explanation and does not seem a whole lot neutral.--Anbans 585 (talk) 10:31, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Wikiemirati

Dispute started on 15th of July with user:Super ninja2 non-NPOV edit and rephrasing of long standing information [7]. The user was reverted twice for non-NPOV rephrasing and the initial stable version was restored. The user argued on the talk page about 1-removing "According to the Guardian", 2-removing a cited source from The National, 3-including "the fan was beaten",4-including details from the statement to "clarify why the police arrested him and what excuse they are counting on to justify their action" 5-including a statement by British FCO. I agreed with reason 1,3, and 4. Reason 2 was unjustifiable, reason 5 was unrelated to the incident. Due to the user's conflicting edits, the status quo ante bellum was restored by user:anbans 585 due to the dispute [8]. After discussion in the talk page and agreeing with the users additions, I have edited to this [9]. However, the user once again rephrased the text to their own liking [10] and their edits have been reverted twice, again. Also note the user has thrown some person attacks on calling me a "liar" and accusations of COI, saying "we can say, without doubt, that his edits go under WP:Conflicts of interest", however I am assuming good faith and did not want to open an ANI. Also note the user broke WP:3RR, which I again assumed good faith and did not want to open an AN3. Sorry for the long paragraph. --Wikiemirati (talk) 17:47, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Masgouf

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:2019 AFC Asian Cup discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hi there, I'm a volunteer here but at the moment won't be picking up the case, so I encourage any other volunteer to do so if they are willing. I see there's been some discussion and everyone's been notified about the discussion, so thanks for checking that's done. I'd like to hear the other editors thoughts on this one, so if they've not left a comment soon, I (or another editor) can pop them a message. Thanks for your patience! Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 20:28, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

• @Super ninja2:, @Anbans 585:, noting that Wikiemirati and Masgouf are the same person and have been blocked, is this dispute something you can now work out amongst yourselves or do you still need our assistance? Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 13:47, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
• @Steven Crossin: Well we have talked about that issue earlier on the page. Mostly I am okay with the page.--Anbans 585 (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

User talk:MadManPaddy

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by MadManPaddy on 04:13, 24 July 2019 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute User talk:MadManPaddy (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved MadManPaddy (talk · contribs) Railfan23 (talk · contribs) Apokryltaros (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I added sourced (maybe incorrectly?) and verifiable information to the page "Creation Science" and "Darwinism" as I feel it is unfairly biased as they currently are worded. I initially changed the wording used and found my edit undone. It was pointed out to me about the 3 edit rule. The reasons given to me for apparent violation are that I added my own POV, I Gave commentary and was pushing a biased POV. None of these are fair or accurate. I merely added sourced material to bring balance to the page. the following user: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Railfan23 is the primary individual who approached me with the threats of being blocked. It is my opinion that the issue is not supported by the purported policy violations but rather a stiff disagreement with the subject matter and I believe that exception was taken at my attempts to bring a balanced, or as the policy states, a NPOV. Currently, the page is NOT neutral in any way. I acknowledge that my web sources may not meet the policy and I am committed to finding a valid source per the policy. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I replied to the initial warnings however I was met with more firm threats of being blocked. How do you think we can help? Recognize that the pages in question are not currently written fairly and in fact violate your own policy of NPOV in terms of neutrality. Allow me to make the reasonable and fair sourced additions so that there is that balance that the people who access these pages deserve. Further, recognize that I was not and am not in violation as to commentary, POV, etc so that the moderator does not unreasonably target my contributions again. User talk:MadManPaddy discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. (Non-administrator comment) Since the OP failed to follow the instructions above and notify Railfan23 and Apokryltaros on their Talk pages of this dispute resolution request, I have done so. General Ization Talk 04:21, 24 July 2019 (UTC) comment It was repeatedly pointed out to MadManPaddy that the sources he provided were unreliable and or were not reputable (e.g., Answers In Genesis, the Discovery Institute, and "The New American"), and that his edits to insert the claim that Darwinism/Evolution was in doubt or being challenged because a thousand people with PhDs was actually creating a non-neutral point of view due to undue weight given to an extreme minority, whereupon he promptly dismissed as being irrevelant.--Mr Fink (talk) 05:30, 24 July 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:2019 World Rally Championship

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Mclarenfan17 on 12:07, 24 July 2019 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:2019 World Rally Championship (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Mclarenfan17 (talk · contribs) Tvx1 (talk · contribs) Nbooth4 (talk · contribs) Unnamelessness (talk · contribs) Pelmeen10 (talk · contribs) MNSZ (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The dispute focuses on the World Championship for Manufacturers' results matrix and how it should be structured. Have you tried to resolve this previously? This issue has been discussed on and off over the past 18 months; other examples can be found at Talk:2018 World Rally Championship. How do you think we can help? By helping to resolve the issue once and for all, and by bringing new voices into the discussion. Summary of dispute by Tvx1 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I don't think there's much of a dispute here. On 26 April 2019 Nbooth4 raised a proposal on Talk:2019 World Rally Championship to remove the results with are counted for the manufacturers' championship from the table showing the standings of the championship. Multiple users replied to that proposal and all but one (Mclarenfan17) supported it. Following months of this discussion having run, I decided to be somewhat bold yesterday and execute the proposed edit. All of Mclarenfan17's concerns have been addressed and clear alternatives have been provided as to how to keep information that they deem "vital" in the article in a more efficient and logical way. I also wonder why the other participants in the discussion were not included here by the filer. I've taking the liberty to add them.Tvx1 17:15, 24 July 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Nbooth4 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Unnamelessness Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Here is how the rule book says: "For any one Manufacturer, a maximum of three (3) nominated drivers may be eligible to score points of which only the 2 best placed will score points according to their relative position. The third placed cars may neither score nor detract points from the other cars." Moreover, the OFFICIAL website also lists the WCM result in the form two cars (A+B style) regardless of those four manufacturers enter two cars or three cars. So, I just can't understand why we need to add the third car to the table. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 04:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Pelmeen10 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. It's a small thing, but with Mclarenfan, it becomes big. I don't think it really matters, but. If there's just those two options (1=how Tvx1 made it look and 2=how Mclarenfan made it look), I support Tvx1's. Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:56, 24 July 2019 (UTC) Summary of dispute by MNSZ Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Talk:2019 World Rally Championship discussion The issue is whether there should be two rows or three for each team in the World Championship for Manufacturers' (WCM) results matrix. I believe that there should be three rows for three reasons: The rules state that manufacturers may enter up to three cars in an event. The best two of three results count to the WCM tally (but do count to driver and co-driver tallies), even if all three cars finish. This means that the third car is "Not Classified" in the WCM despite finishing. Omitting the car that was Not Classified implies that it was never running. In the 1990s, teams were allowed to enter three cars with two cars scoring points. The difference was that in the 1990s, teams had to nominate which cars scored points before the event began. The 1990s and late-2010s used different scoring systems, and this needs to be reflected in the results matrices. A previous consensus at the WikiProject agreed that the purpose of the WCM matrix should be to show how a team's championship campaign played out. However, different teams have different strategies: Citroën enter two cars, Toyota and Hyundai enter three, and M-Sport Ford alternate between two and three. This affects how they can score points, and so should be reflected in the structure of the matrix. I also feel that Tvx1's recent edits to the article have not been appropriate. The discussion on the talk page died out two months ago, but in the past 24 hours he has claimed the existence of a consensus and used it to justify his changes. I think he is being premature, which is ironic given that he has criticised me for prematurely declaring a consensus elsewhere, which is why I brought this to DRN. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 12:23, 24 July 2019 (UTC) Volunteer Question for User:Mclarenfan17 - Is this a one-against-many dispute? Do you agree with another editor that the other editors are in agreement? If so, is there any purpose in coming here? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:48, 24 July 2019 (UTC) @Robert McClenon — it is not a "one against many" scenario. Other editors have contributed to the discussion, but usually in the form of a single comment. It's worth noting that Tvx1 only tagged editors from the most-recent discussion. During the lengthy debate at WT:WRC he insisted that the views of editors who had previously commented on the subject (even if they had not participated in the current discussion) be taken into account. But here he is, ignoring a previous discussion because it's inconvenient. His claim of having a consensus in the case is questionable because the discussion died out two months ago, he is obviously just counting the number of people who agree with him as if it were a vote, and rather than try to discuss issues, his counter-arguments have amounted to him saying "no, that's not a problem" and assuming the issue has been resolved. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 20:24, 24 July 2019 (UTC) I don't think the WT:Rally discussion is really comparable. The consensus you claimed in the former simply did not exist. There were just many people opposing the proposal then there were supporting it. Moreover, multiple editors stated independent of one another that the clear consensus you claimed was just not there. One of these people actually was Robert McClenon. In this case, there simply is just one person objecting to everyone else, despite their repeated objections having been repeatedly addressed.Tvx1 22:00, 24 July 2019 (UTC) Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:52, 25 July 2019 (UTC) And I don't think you should be the one to make that judgement given your history of misrepresenting things. You claim that not all of the opinions of editors were taken into account, but you only tagged and notified the ones who agreed with you. You ignored the ones who disagreed with you. You claim that Nbooth4 made the original proposal, but it was you. For you to declare a consensus is the same as a football player acting as the referee.Mclarenfan17 (talk) 22:24, 24 July 2019 (UTC) This entire situation appears to be little more to recreate the appearance of results matrices in Formula 1 articles such as this one. And if this was a Formula 1 article, it would be fine. But it's not a Formula 1 article, so Tvx1 is essentially suggesting that the WRC article's first priority should be meeting the needs of an unrelated article before addressing its own needs. "the OFFICIAL website also lists the WCM result in the form two cars" And the official website is a primary source. It's a source about the championship by the championship. We should not be making editing decisions based purely on primary sources. The fact that the site does not show those results means nothing. The cars still completed the event and recorded a result; the difference is that the result simply did not count. Removing it suggests that there was never a result at all. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 08:29, 25 July 2019 (UTC) "the difference is that the result simply did not count. Removing it suggests that there was never a result at all." No, the difference is nothing. There is no difference between Citroën 1-2 and Toyota 1-2-3 — They both score 43 points, so why do we have to add a totally redundant third car to the table? Because it can show how many crews a manufacturer enters in an event? That's the mission of an entry list. In fact, how many crews a manufacturer enters, who are they and in which rounds are all the job of entry list. They are not what the WCM table should be concerned about, which is why the two-row layout is enough. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2019 (UTC) How is it that you get to just throw out personal attacks and accusations of bad faith at me here? If anyone has a history of misrepresenting facts here, it's you. This is evidenced in the aforementioned WT:Rally discussion, where you kept declaring a clear consensus in your favor even over objections stated against that claim at WP:ANI. I did not state anything untrue here. I never claimed that Nbooth4 was the first person ever to start a discussion over this, I only stated that they were the one starting the latest discussion which led to the edit you dispute. I even backed that up with a diff. And your other accusations are just laughable. You accuse me of "deliberately" selecting which users to notify, when you yourself, as the filer, did not invite anyone but me who disagreed with you. Lastly, you really need to stop that "you only want to make things the same as F1 here" card every time I'm involved in a discussion regarding rallying that doesn't go your way. It's blatantly untrue (Talk about a case of misrepresenting facts). I'm perfectly capable of judging different motorsports' needs separately. No if you really want to achieve anything here you have to stop these personal attacks. Commenting on the contributors is not tolerated at all around here.Tvx1 13:29, 25 July 2019 (UTC) "I only stated that they were the one starting the latest discussion which led to the edit you dispute" No, you didn't. This is what you said: "On 26 April 2019 Nbooth4 raised a proposal on Talk:2019 World Rally Championship to remove the results with are counted for the manufacturers' championship from the table showing the standings of the championship" Nothing in your comments indicates that it had been discussed previously. A neutral third party—such as a DRN volunteer—would have no idea of previous discussions. And then you act offended and claim bad faith when I point this out. Tell me, why didn't you point out that it had been discussed previously? And why did you claim nobody supported my argument when editors in previous discussions clearly did? Mclarenfan17 (talk) 20:27, 25 July 2019 (UTC) Volunteer Note - We are waiting for the other editors to reply and see whether they want to take part in moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:51, 24 July 2019 (UTC) Comment - I noticed that MNSZ has not contributed to Wikipedia for over a year. It's not certain they will take part in this DRN case.Tvx1 01:59, 26 July 2019 (UTC) Notice - I do not appreciate at all that the filer tried to circumvent the DRN procedure by approaching the volunteer to try an bring me further into disrepute. Therefore I will make a short and clear declaration: I'm full willing to participate in this DRN thread if it the goal is really to resolve this matter. If it turns out that this DRN thread only exists to criticize me and to try to bring me into disrepute I will no take part any further.Tvx1 16:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC) Comment: the goal of the DRN is indeed to resolve the matter. However, I also felt that there was an outstanding, related issue that needed to be addressed: namely, the conduct of an editor who I felt misrepresented the issue being discussed here by claiming "there simply is just one person objecting to everyone else", which I can demonstrate to be untrue through diffs. How can we expect to resolve anything if we cannot even agree on what the issue is? Mclarenfan17 (talk) 21:46, 26 July 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Conservapedia

– New discussion.

Filed by 24.155.244.245 on 07:33, 27 July 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Conservapedia (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• El C (talk · contribs)
• Seraphimblade (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This user issued an NPOV nomination for review on the article talk page, after which point consensus was reached and edits were made for direct attribution of Opinion pieces in conformity with WP:Attribution and WP:NPOV. These revisions were then reverted with no satisfactory explanation in Wikipedia Policy. This user was then abusively warned by a moderator that appeared to be playing favorites / playing favors inappropriately for other users.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Have attempted to discuss the matter with the other users whom then took a condescending attitude towards this user. Also attempted to report abuse to other moderators after which this user was inappropriately warned in a threatening manner.

How do you think we can help?

Warning for abuse of moderator privileges and/or Revocation of Moderator privleges for abuse is appropriate. Blocking User Seraphimblade from edits on the particular page would also be appropriate in light of that user's inability to support his contentions with Wikipedia policy. Warning both users about playing inappropriate favors to moderators for favorable moderation decisions is also appropriate.

Summary of dispute by El C

This misuse of DRN is not actually an attempt at dispute resolution, and at any case, I am the uninvolved admin. El_C 07:40, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Seraphimblade

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Conservapedia discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Only two editors are involved in the talk page discussion, Seraphimblade and User:NewsAndEventsGuy who for some reason hasn't been mentioned although he reverted the IP. User:El C hasn't edit the talk page or the article. Doug Weller talk 07:45, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

User_talk:24.155.244.245#Final_warning kinda sums it up. El_C 07:49, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

EL_C is involved in this because of taking inappropriate moderator actions, Doug. Also, NewsAndEventsGuy isn't implicated in this because of the fact that he did not continue to make inappropriate reversions, unlike Seraphimblade, as well as the fact that seraphimblade was using page protections inappropriately without being able to cite a Wikipedia policy to support his position, which is clearly a form of vandalism per the vandalism policy. 24.155.244.245 (talk) 08:29, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

This is not a discussion forum and there are no "moderators." And I have yet to take administrative action, actually. But I did warn you against accusing users of vandalism and even linked what vandalism is not for your review. Needless to say, I decline to participate in this dispute resolution request, such as it is. El_C 08:33, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm also noting here for the record that you're leaving what I percieve to be inappropriate threats on my talk page, Doug. 24.155.244.245 (talk) 08:34, 27 July 2019 (UTC) Here's the thing, El_C - Policy states clearly that it is vandalism to inappropriately use the page protection functions, which is exactly what Seraphimblade did. Therefore, Seraphimblade was clearly guilty of vandalism. That's all there is to it, regardless of how you want to attempt to justify it in your own fantasy world. Also, Seraphim was unable to name a single Wikipedia policy that even might support his position as was reflected in the revision logs, while I was able to name two Wikipedia Policies that tend to support my positon. The question, El_C is why is that? I think you reacted the way you did because you and Seraphimblade are buddy-buddy. Thats what this dispute is pretty much about, since I had to spell it out for you. 24.155.244.245 (talk) 08:40, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

IP, if you wish to challenge administrative actions, such as page protection, this is not the venue. Your continued reliance on innuendo and aspersions are unwelcome and are becoming a problem. El_C 08:42, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

What, EL_C, you want to project that it's somehow my fault now for exposing your actions? Or is it that you have no other valid argument you can make, because you know I'm right about this? Either way, I could see how exposing your actions to the Wikipedia Community for what they really are is a "problem" for you and your friends. 08:48, 27 July 2019 (UTC)