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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cadby Waydell Bainbrydge (talk | contribs) at 02:38, 23 June 2007 (→Sister Project Positions). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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05:14, Thursday, November 7, 2024 (UTC)
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Errors in the summary of the featured article

Please do not remove this invisible timestamp. See WT:ERRORS and WP:SUBSCRIBE. - Dank (push to talk) 01:24, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Today's FA

Tomorrow's FA

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Errors with "In the news"

I suppose my 2nd concern is the same as the above ones, in that the wording for the Senate victory should include the election article for clarity. The current blurb doesn't flow well, as it is discussing two separate (but related) elections. Natg 19 (talk) 03:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Can you (or anyone) make a specific suggestion what the blurb should be? Schwede66 03:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Errors in "Did you know ..."

Current DYK

Nov. 6, 2024 DYK states Vivian Stranders is a "British-born Jew" who became an officer in the SS ,,, nothing in the main article suggests this Nazi was born a Jew or ever practiced Judaism. This person was an officer in the RAF who became a German intelligence asset and then a German and a Nazi officer. Again, the DYK is wrong. Better might be DYK " Vivian Stranders was a British -born RAF officer who became a German spy and a Nazi officer." —68.129.185.93 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you won't mind I added an "a" before "German" in that suggestion. Art LaPella (talk) 03:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per article "Stranders was Jewish and some of his SS colleagues suspected him of being a British spy." The ref 31 supporting has "Vivian Stranders, an Englishman who had served in the British Army [...] Astonishingly enough, this long-standing British member of the NSDAP and SS was also Jewish — a fact known to at least some of his colleagues" (no page numbers available) JennyOz (talk) 03:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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(November 8, tomorrow)

Monday's FL

(November 11)
Notice to administrators: When fixing POTD errors, please update the corresponding regular version (i.e. without "protected" in the page title) in addition to the Main Page version linked below.

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Main page general discussion

Radical proposal to help our Wikimedia sister projects

The m:Wikimedia brand survey discussion has had me thinking, and what I think we need is a better way to promote our Wikimedia sister projects (Wiktionary, Wikinews, Wikisource etc.), you know, the ones languishing on the bottom of the other side of this page. I have this crazy feeling that people just don't pay attention to the bottom and that if we moved them to the top, we might just see the leverage of this page propel some projects that are struggling a little into projects that could really thrive with more participation. I know, I know, this will be different, and it just won't feel right to some of us, but please just look at the the demo (not a finished idea at all, just an idea of placement), and decide for yourself whether or not this can help us further our larger goals at Wikimedia. Thanks.--Pharos 06:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)RE[reply]

This might work, if there were a way to make the vertical space used by the {{WikipediaSister}} template much smaller. Perhaps by removing the mottos and shrinking icons? Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 06:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A definite possibility.--Pharos 12:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Main page probably isn't the biggest advert for our sister projects. I'd say the in article templates do a lot more to alert people to them - for example. --Monotonehell 06:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there is the long tail and all, but the MainPage is still a pretty big draw — certainly the equivalent of many thousands of dollars in advertising at least. And of course, it would be a considerably bigger advert for the projects if they were placed more prominently.--Pharos 12:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As I've mentioned above, wikinews isn't just at the bottom of the side of the page but most people still seem to miss it. Nil Einne 07:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikinews is pretty well-hidden in that ITN box, I'd say. We probably get even less clicks from that link than from the one at the bottom.--Pharos 12:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Main Page advertising would really help. What about linking to Wikinews in Template:Current? Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 16:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A question for Template talk:Current? --74.13.124.115 05:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is Wikipedia and not a central place to link to all the different sister projects. Moving the front page content down detracts from our content here. Personally I think that we just have to face it and realise that the other projects will never be as big as this one. violet/riga (t) 21:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that finding ways to promote other projects is a good thing, but, and no offense intended, I don't think we want to make the Main Page into a billboard.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 21:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right, that's what the talk page is for. Go to Wikiversity.  ;-P ShadowHalo 20:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What if you put the icons down the right side of the page? People might just be intrigued... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.101.123.219 (talk • contribs) 20:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Or the 'navbar' on the left. --74.13.124.115 05:56, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I completely disagree, and it'll clog up the main page completely. And, why does Wikipedia need a better way to promote its sister projects? I don't think Wikipedia is an advertising vehicle for random-Wikimedia-project-10121, which should live and die on its own merits as much as possible. If you believe the page is too long at the moment, perhaps simplifying the icons or removing the sister projects entirely would be a much better solution for getting rid of extraneous non-Wikipedia-related information. -Halo 19:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think we should let our sister projects "live or die". We have to recognize that Wikimedia is a whole, a coordinated effort to improve the availability of free knowledge in the world, and we have to let our casual readers know it too. Does Google hide Google Images or Google News at the bottom of their page because they're not "true Google"? We have to rise above such thinking. The other projects may never grow to the size of Wikipedia, but their success is limited not by their current participation only, but by the fundamental low level of awareness of the general public of these projects. And relocating the links to the sister projects will not lengthen the MainPage one iota, nor will it be made in any way less useful to our readers; indeed, they will be more clearly pointed toward where some of the things they expect to find in Wikipedia actually belong.--Pharos 21:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Google advertise Google News, Google Images et al because it's in their commercial (and indeed shareholders) interests to do so and extend their brand, whereas the Wikimedia Foundation is not-for-profit and not chasing page-views to sell ad-space. It's also worth mentioning that Google's solution was to supply easily-ignorable links to their other products, letting them live-and-die, rather than spamming you with large descriptions and icons which is seemingly what you're suggesting. I think the fundamental reason why the other projects have relatively floundered compared to Wikipedia is that, functionally, the wiki-model doesn't work as well, the content overlaps, and there's generally less interest in original news reporting or writing a textbook, and I don't think using half the front-page to push less popular projects is the solution and letting them live-or-die on their own merits, such as Wikipedia did, is better. But then I also don't see Wikimedia Foundation as a "co-ordinated effort to improve the availability of free knowledge in the world" - I see them as a necessary evil and bureaucracy to host several free projects, nothing more or less. -Halo 22:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is a strange idea that just because Wikimedia is a non-profit we don't have "interests"; indeed we have non-commercial interests just as every other charitable organization does, and our primary one is improving the availability of free knowledge in the world, whether you agree with that goal or not. I will point out yet again that moving the sister projects box will not eat up one more pixel of screenspace than is used currently.--Pharos 00:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. People come here for Wikipedia, so that is what they should get. I hate websites that try to tell me what I want instead of giving me what I asked for. Commercial websites do that all the time, because they make money on directing people to things they didn't really want, but we should respect our readers. --Apoc2400 08:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Think about it though the whole of all the wiki's is to deliever knowledge to the world and that was one of the main goals that Jimmy Wales set. I believe putting some kind of links at the top of the page will help but not dominant on the page. As mentioned above many people don't know about these sister projects but people that i know would find them very useful. Wikipedia is wikipedia though and people did come here for wikipedia so if this does go ahead i wouldn't make it big on the main page, maybe put it by the links where the portals are. Also shouldn't this be on the proposals page by the village pump.Wiki.user 08:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I don't think this is the solution to promote other Wikimedia projects (and there's the question on whether we should be). There's also the view that Wikiquote, Wikinews, etc. are projects to help Wikipedia, and not separate projects. My view is that they are separate projects, but to use the Main page to promote them is not a good idea. More interwiki stuff like the box on the right is the way to go. x42bn6 Talk Mess 01:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC) [reply]
Wikiquote has quotations related to Moo.
Pharos mentioned Google's linking to their other projects on their main search page. The thing is that Google doesn't use big, flashy logos for their links like we do— just simple text links. If we eliminate the logo links at the bottom, and add in text links at the top, we could actually free up some space for other uses while promoting the sister projects at the same time. I personally prefer simple text links to clickable logos anyway.—Elipongo (Talk contribs) 01:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why not change it for a few days or a week and see how traffic on the sister sites changes? --- RockMFR 01:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've suggested we include a link to them on every page, not just the main page, but working small icons of them all somewhere on the page (e.g. the bottom). All the projects should do this, IMO. It is difficult to work into the layout, but just for convenience it would be worth it. Richard001 05:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We need something like this User:This, that and the other/mpbox, in a strip below the header. But I haven't got time to make smaller images (16x16 or 20x20). This, that and the other 10:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 11:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should try it for a few days and see how it goes like RockMFR suggested. This should carry on on the proposals page as this is attracting a lot of interest here. Wiki.user 19:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't fit Wikispecies, Commons, Meta-wiki. On my resolution (an unusual 848x600, maximised), nothing more fits. I guess it looks ugly on 800x600 and too much space on 1024x768 plus. This, that and the other 08:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What if you put the titles underneath, like this? —The preceding signed comment was added by Cadby (talk • contribs) 20:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC) [reply]
That looks pretty good, ya know. And it would take up considerably less room than the current layout. Surely something like this is the perfect compromise?--Pharos 00:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea of moving this to the top... especially in it's reduced state as Cadby has shown. Granted, Wikipedia does not have commercial interests, like Google, but increasing the popularity of these projects will also help increase the accuracy of the information. The more people that use these resources, the more people may contribute. Or... what about this idea... Each day there is a featured article and a featured image. What if each day you also have a featured WikiResource. Today it's the Wiktionary... tomorrow, the WikiSpecies project, etc. Then, you can have a small box dedicated to the icon AND the explanation of the sister project. Trigam41 15:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The latest template (by Caddy Waydell) is great in my opinion and i agree with the recent comments above but couldn't you make it a little, little bit smaller.Wiki.user 19:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it looks a bit lumpy, with the captions not lined up. Maybe align them bottom? This, that and the other 07:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I'm all thumbs with the more esoteric template coding. Can someone help with this?--Pharos 04:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here's some more. This version is a bit more compact and more aligned, and This is not only compact, but annoyingly collapsible! —The preceding signed comment was added by Cadby (talk • contribs) 07:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC) 07:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See also: § Sister Project Positions

languages

Hi, just noticing the interwikis. You have CEBUNO but not ÍSLENSKA? (is:) why? Why do you have all the other scandinavian and nordic languages, but not Icelandic? It would be nice if you added it , we do have more then 10.000 articles. Thank you! :) --Ice201 00:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The minimum number to be listed on the main page is 25,000 articles. Is.Wikipedia currently only has about 15,813. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 00:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cebuano has 22.000 articles. Another explanation? I kind of take it to offense how you dont have the Icelandic wikipedia link on there, i mean it is just one more language? We are very active wikipedia, you cant place it on there? We have many edits a day, and it grows faster each day, I am kind of offended I dont see my language there. Thanks! --Ice201 00:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia in Cebuano actually has more than 33,000 articles. Please assume good faith; no one here is against the Icelandic language. Your language is not there just because we need a rule to limit the number of Wikipedias that we can link to in the Main Page; and that rule is: more than 25,000 articles. If Wikipedia in Icelandic is growing as fast as you are saying, it will be there soon. And I don't know why you take it against Cebuano, it's an important language spoken by 20 million people...--cloviz 00:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
so your saying icelandic is not an important language? it is actually where english came from almost. úff... this is wonderful
Looking at the page history, Ceb was added when the limit was only 20,000.[2] When the limit was changed to 25,000, the list was not corrected. So I will correct it now. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 01:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like the list on Template:MainPageInterwikis is correct. However, I sort of feel like it is a little redundant to the "Wikipedia languages" list at the bottom of the main page, and would prefer to remove one or the other. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 01:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it just reassures that fact that wikipedia is bias. I mean, honestly, I never even heard of Cebuano until I saw it on the list , and I am very interested in language. Cebuano seems more of a DIALECT t hen a language of Tagalog or Filipino. --Ice201 01:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh i forgot, Icelandic is a minor language according to your Germanic languages template! --Ice201 01:11, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quick fix, go write 10,000 Icelandic Wiki-articles and get them on the page. I'm willing to bet the whole thing is automated anyway. (It would be a very boring job to have to count wiki-articles. Dachande 01:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Logically, if we were to add Íslenska to the Main Page, we would also have to add Galego, Ελληνικά, ไทย, Nynorsk, فارسی, Bahasa Melayu, नेपाल भाषा, Tiếng Việt, Bosanski, Euskara, Shqip, and বাংলা first, as they have more articles. Just 1 link? Try 14. What would the cut-off be? 15,650? That's a nice round (okay, not quite) number below Íslenska but above the next Wikipedia, Lëtzebuergesch, which you don't seem to want on the main page. But what about all the poor Luxembourgeois? I think they would feel a little cheated by that.
On the other hand, if we were to just remove Sinugboanong Binisaya from the main page, since you seem to object to its presence, we would just also have to remove العربية, Hrvatski, and తెలుగు, as they have less pages than it. What would the cut-of be then? 33,200? That's better than 15,650, at least. But then why does Eesti deserve to be on the main page? Its only got 3,000 more articles. "Lucky Estonians!", the Cebuano speakers will say! Or maybe they'll do what you did, and complain about a language with 17,500 more articles than them (in your case, more than twice the number of articles), which would in this case be Lumbaart. "Lumbaart is not more notable than Sinugboanong Binisaya," they will say to us. "If Lumbaart stays, so should Cebuano!"
What a conundrum this is! I guess the problem is that you are basing what language should be in the main page on some subjective standard of "importance." However, our standards are much clearer. All you have to do is have at least 25,000 articles. Cebuano does; Icelandic doesn't.
A suggestion, though: You can have a bot auto-translate pages about French communes into Icelandic for you. It looks like that's what they did. Of my 10 article random sample, 3 were about Philipino municipalities, (which oddly enough included English words; they could be loanwords I suppose), and 7 were 1 line articles about French communes. Just a helpful hint. Atropos 02:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As for the guy who said Cebuano is a dialect, he obviously haven't been in the Philippines where people don't seem to understand each other, lol. --Howard the Duck 02:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not really a native english speaker, but I am almost 100% sure that it is he obviously HASN'T been not HAVEN'T. Correct me if I am wrong? About Luxembourgish, you should put Luxembourgish on the front page too. Maybe then, add those 14!! In Icelandic wiki, although I am somewhat against it, we have interwikis for over 10.000, not bad at all, is it? I mean you dont leave out the most active wikipedias. I mean I am not going to get upset over a wikipedia thing, but still add more interwikis! --Ice201 03:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As expected, corrections will be coming (that was intentional), however if we'll add those, we might as well add Tsonga language. And IMHO, if we'll do what you want, the list will be predominantly Indo-European. --Howard the Duck 04:11, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"your saying icelandic is not an important language? it is actually where english came from almost." What? How did you figure that out? English is of Latin and West Germanic derivation, and so is Icelandic - one didn't evolve from the other, they both evolved from West Germanic separately. —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ 10:38, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Compare Old English texts with modern Icelandic texts , then maybe youll find your answer.
We don't consider the 'importance' of languages since we never liked to consider importance on wikipedia as it's too messy and POV. But according to Icelandic language there are 300k speakers (I presume first language). According to Cebuano language it has 20 million first language speakers and 11 million second language. I think you'll find you have difficulty convincing people that Icelandic is of equal importance to Cebuano. We might as well say every language is of equal importance and just put every language... If your only argument is that Icelandic and English share the same history, then are you telling me we should put up the Old English language/Anglo Saxon wikipedia as well? Nil Einne 10:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I could even say Tagalog with 24 million speakers is more important than Cebuano, but with Tagalog Wikipedia's very low article count, it's a good call Tagalog shouldn't be listed at the Main Page. --Howard the Duck 10:59, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I do think Tagalog should be up there more then Cebuano. And what is wrong with just placing wikipedias more then 10.000 articles on there? I am not arguing saying my language is more important then yours, the most important language in the world is obviously English since its the international, as with the other UN languages. But each language is unique, but to simply place their sister languages (norsk dansk svenska) on the front page and not Icelandic? It is kind of insulting. I am not trying to diminutive Cebuano, it was just Cebuano's lucky day to be used as an example. Please dont take my comments the wrong way as insulting another language, it is just I am finding the english wikipedia very bias. Maybe the front page should be done another way then article count? --Ice201 15:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But if it were to be done any other way than article count, then that would be showing a bias. Right now, the main page does not state which languages are better or worse, it merely lists the Wikipedias with more than a set number of articles. If that number was lowered to 10,000 articles, then there would be 63 different Wikipedias linked from the front page. Hence why the threshold was raised from 20,000 to 25,000 a while back. --Dreaded Walrus t c 16:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
At the end of the day, it's better we don't change anything. Use article counts to determine which goes and which doesn't. That'll be fairer for everyone. --Howard the Duck 16:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wow, I didn't realize this was so important to some people. Of the three languages being discussed (Tagalog, Cebuano, and Icelandic) I speak one. Useight 22:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Britocentrism, again (Pronounced a-gayn)

So since when does a local British Association Football team (Sorry, I and 3 quarters of the native English speaking world will NEVER call that game simply "football") team get a link on the main article and the Superbowl, one of the world's most broadcasted events doesn't even get a mention on Superbowl Sunday?

Again, I call Britocentrism on Wikipedia. Or should I say, Wikipaedia.

ColdRedRain 13:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't and never has been one of the world's most broadcasted events. Compelte myth. 122.167.144.218 07:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What on earth are you talk about? Norwich City Football Club is a featured article and was chosen based on quality not content. If you work on some other article about some bizzare American Football club that most of the world doesn't care about (like the New York Jets) then it could very well be featured on the main page too. Similarly, if Super Bowl was a featured article, you or anyone else could put in a request for it to be featured on Super Bowl sunday, or Christmas Day, or your birthday, or whatever date of your choosing. Our featured article director will consider this request and especially if there were a good reason (e.g. Super Bowl sunday) he's probably grant it. But it's not even a good article... So instead of complaining about nothing, I suggest you get working on making Super Bowl a featured article. Also, I still don't get why only native speakers matter Nil Einne 14:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What's a superbowl - some kind of special supper-dish? :p --Alf melmac 14:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Because the figures work out conveniently if only native English speakers are counted? Besides, they're hardly a "local" team, when every football fan in the country (and many outside of it) has heard of the team. The Google hits are certainly comparable with some NFL teams. But as Nil Einne says, and as people keep stating each time the "this doesn't deserve to be on front page" argument is brought up, the decision is based on the quality of the article, not the subject of it. Certainly, I'd be willing to bet that more English (and even native English) speakers have heard of Norwich City than have heard of Kazi Nazrul Islam. --Dreaded Walrus t c 15:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Even money says that the majority of the world's native English speakers in the world don't give a flying fuck about English Association Football (Not football, association football) nor have heard of Norwich FC nor even know where Norwich is.
BTW, the New York Jets have a split fanbase. They have to share the market and the state and even their stadium with the New York Giants, so they won't have that many fans. Not to mention, in the New York-New Jersey area, there are way more Giants fans than Jets fans because the Giants have been established longer. And by the way, you know our entire country isn't in New York.
Focus, pommie, focus.
Anyways, if we're going to put a page from some some minor British city's local soccer team on the main page (Norfolk city is 150 K strong) we should start putting up a minor US city's minor league baseball team (Like the Norfolk, Virginia Tides.) Norfolk, Virginia is larger in population than Norfolk, UK.
And P.S. Ice hockey is way more international than you give it credit for. Just because your country can't field a team or even individual players in any other sport besides for soccer and rugby, (BTW, since when was the last time England, Scotland and Wales ever won a world cup in either of those sports?) doesn't mean the sport isn't international. Other countries play other sports besides for rugby, soccer and cricket too.

209.162.14.223 20:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But why mention only native English speakers? Wikipedia isn't only for native English speakers, it's for English speakers, whether native or not.
Anyway, as people keep mentioning, things are chosen for the front page for the quality of the article, not the subject of it. Therefore, the reason why the Norfolk Tides aren't on the front page and Norwich City F.C. is, is not because we're saying that (soccer) is better than baseball, and not because we're saying that the population of Norwich (or Norfolk, UK) is higher than the population than the population of Norfolk, Virginia, it's because the article on Norwich City F.C. is higher quality than that on Norfolk Tides. There's absolutely no reason why even a genuinely small side, like Lancaster City F.C. couldn't be on the front page, apart from the article isn't good enough.
I realise that many American sports (ice hockey, baseball e.t.c) are popular outside of the US. Hell, I like many of them myself. I realise that there is more to the US than New York. I've visited the US many times, and none of those times have been to New York.
And as for the last time either England, Scotland or Wales won a world cup in either rugby or (soccer)? How about the most recent one for rugby?
But to sum up, the day's featured article is based on the quality of the article, not its subject. --Dreaded Walrus t c 21:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tell a Canadian, a Scandinavian or a Russian that Ice Hockey is an "American" sport. They'll beg to differ. Ok, I'll give you rugby, but.... when's the last time you guys won in soccer? ;) ColdRedRain 05:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You still seem to be missing the point entirely. If you want an article about the New York Giants or the New York Jets or the New York Idiots or whatever your favourite American football team is, then YOU write it. My whole point was that if you want an article about some random American football team, it is your resonable to get it up to FA. I don't care what team that is. The only reason I choose the New York Jets was because they're the first one I spotted on the American football page. Don't complain to me because you're too lazy to write an article about your favourite American football team. Personally, I couldn't give a flip about the New York Anything or Norwich FC but at least one other person did care enough about the Norwich FC to make a FA so it was featured. BTW, you really, really need to learn how to use your terms better. Pommie is a word for British which I am not. As such, calling me pommie other then being insulting makes no sense. I generally find when you're going to go on a rant it helps to actually know what you're talking about... Nil Einne 07:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually when it comes to non-native, it's far more difficult to make such a call. Since many Indians aren't particularly interested in football (let alone American football) and they make up a substanial proportion of the non native speaker list, there's a possibility more English speakers overall have heard of Kazi Nazrul Islam. Of course, it depends on who you count as a speaker. Robert Garran is probably a better example since I reckon fewer native and more non-native speakers have heard of him then Norwich FC Nil Einne 16:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, I'm pretty sure we mentioned the Super Bowl on ITN after the results were out Nil Einne 14:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On a similar note, since when do local American football teams ONLY get on the main page, not once but twice – while British football teams have been on there multiple times such as here, here, here... :p Zzyzx11 (Talk) 16:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Probably because there's more (soccer) featured articles than there are American football ones. For (soccer), we've got: 1, 2, 3, 4 (I suppose), 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 articles about (soccer). Meanwhile, for American football, there are only 1, 2. There are actually more ice hockey featured articles than American football ones.
Of course, the only reason why there are so many (soccer) FAs and so few American football ones is because Wikipaedia is secretly controlled by FIFA. --Dreaded Walrus t c 16:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, on reflection, that means that EVERY American football FA has been on the front page! Why hasn't every (soccer) FA been on the front page? I call Americocentrism on Wikipedia! --Dreaded Walrus t c 16:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it is a very clear football bias, you don't see as many cricket or ice hockey topics on there :p Zzyzx11 (Talk) 16:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When would Michael Jordan be displayed on the Main Page? This is more of outdoor sport bias if you ask me... --Howard the Duck 16:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd just finish doing the counting and was going to make the point Walrus made but was beaten to the punch. Still I guess it's our fault. We should be working on articles that the majority of native English speakers want to read about and not articles that interest us or non-native English speakers (especially if we're non native speakers). As for American football fans, well it's not their fault if they have to spend their time telling us how bad wikipedia is rather then working on writing FAs Nil Einne 16:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not done yet! I demand we move Shaolin Soccer to Shaolin Football (Soccer). The Americocentrism has to stop! --Dreaded Walrus t c 16:38, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, doing a recount, the real problem is the "Anything-else-but-food-and-drink"-centrism on Wikipedia. :p Zzyzx11 (Talk) 16:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Heh heh . . . the strange, paranoid, ignorant comments have been ridiculed to insignificance. I love Wikipedia! We need more of this . . . :) --AdamSommerton 22:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dear God, it's Hollaback Girl all over again. The TFA is about the quality of the article, not the subject of the article. ShadowHalo 17:46, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Even money says that the majority of the world's native English speakers in the world don't give a flying fuck about English Association Football (Not football, association football) nor have heard of Norwich FC nor even know where Norwich is."
Money says that most native English speakers don't know where Norwich is? What does that even mean? This guy's clearly had a few. --AdamSommerton 22:57, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What does it mean? It means that he is willing to bet some undetermined amount of money at even odds that the majority of native English speakers could not locate Norwich. It's probably a safe bet, since the overwhelming majority of native English speakers are here in the U.S.A. Personally, I know exactly where Norwich is. It's right here in Connecticut.69.95.50.15 14:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I bet you pronounce it `Nor-witch' as well.--Rossheth | Talk to me 18:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is clearly biased against non-native English speakers, as can be seen from the discussion above. :p 89.120.193.125 09:05, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I hate to interrupt this moving discourse, but where is "again" pronounced "agayn." I pronounce it /ə.gɛn/ but that's just me. Atropos 04:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"The right-wing Union for a Popular Movement, party of French President Nicolas Sarkozy (pictured), wins a National Assembly majority in the legislative elections."

From an American political perspective, UPM is center-left, not right-wing. Some discernment should be noted, as what constitutes right-wing on the Continent differs from Stateside. - MSTCrow 05:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no point of reference besides the country's political spectrum. The elections were in France; thus we use the French spectrum. The UPM is big and has many factions; but when taken as a whole and within its context, it falls on the right.--cloviz 05:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but centre-right is probably better. That is what the article for the party says, after all. A Geek Tragedy 10:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Then I'd suggest in the future, for political parties outside of the Anglosphere, it should somehow indicate that under local conditions, Party X is politically Y, and may or may not be considered politically Y within our political frames of reference. I do think it's better it is now listed as centre-right, not conservative. - MSTCrow 02:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"UPM retains majority despite losses" seems a bit of a negative way of presenting this - according to the Economist it's the first time a party has held on to a majority for 29 years. [3] --Dilaudid 20:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NBA

My two cents worth. I don't think a sports event deserves to go on the main news menu, on the main page. In fact, it looks grotesque, sandwiched between religious massacres and national elections. Today is one example. Can we devlop a policy to change this? Perhaps relegate sport to a non-news category? Sorry if I am expressing this badly, but it just jars. BrainyBabe 13:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I agree with you. If anything, I think Wikipedia should have a separate sports section for sports championships in major leagues. ColdRedRain 12:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree for regular sports coverage, such as regular season scores, but for a championship, I think that's main page worthy. I'm sure most North American newspapers included the NBA final on the front page alongside "religious massacres and national elections" (all four Toronto dailies featured it on their front pages). Wikipedia needs to cover all aspects of information, and the main page is for news, which includes big sports events. Freshacconci 13:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Freshacconci. Sports events are news. And things like the results of the World Cup or the Superbowl can mean more to some people than pretty much any other piece of news. Sure, it might not be something tragic or something that will change an entire nation (such as a religious massacre, or an election), but I'd say it's certainly worthy of being included in the news. I wouldn't be for including anything outside of major events though. So, for example, I wouldn't have wanted anything on there stating that the fixtures list for the 2007/08 English football season had been announced, or that the NFL drafts had begun. --Dreaded Walrus t c 13:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
News are mostly sad, sports news are usually happy, unless you're the opposing team's fan. At least ITN isn't just killing and blowing everybody up. --Howard the Duck 13:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well we also nearly always feature elections. While the results may be sad for the losers and some of the voters, they would usually be resonably happy for the majority of voters. Of course there may be some instances when the results are sad for most of the world but I'll refrain from giving any examples. Indeed of the 6 items on ITN at the moment only 2 are clearly 'sad' events (not that I'm saying this is typical of ITN)Nil Einne 18:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Aww, come on! Did the first complaint in a while have to be over an American sport? It's hard enough for us already with these football hooligans. Zeality 19:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Many of what you think are "American" sports are actually international sports with their premier leagues based in the United States. That would be like calling soccer a British sport because the best league in the world is in England (Sorry Spanish and Brazilian soccer fans, the premiership is the gold standard of leagues.)ColdRedRain 12:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The practice in ITN is (supposed to be) to only post results from the ultimate level of competition in any one sport. Sometimes that's something like the NBA, but mostly there is a legitimately International competition we can consider to be "ultimate". By the way this same discussion is going on simultainiously in three places right now and has gone on several times in the past. Mostly people argue REALLY HARD about a complete non-issue (notability) and ignore the facts.--Monotonehell 12:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What are NBA and NFL? Is ITN something to do with sport? --JeremyBoden 14:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Indent Break) Wikipedia is not a news source. For that, see Wikinews. ffm ✎talk 17:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rejoice soccer hooligans! The NBA, or especifically, that American related sports item is gone. Don't worry, Mavs fans are happy too. --Howard the Duck 16:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think sports news is just as much news as weather, elections, etc. There shouldn't be a policy against sports headlines in the "in the news" section. Useight 22:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Guys

Hey everybody, I requested a peer review on the Holocaust article, however there has been no response at all, and its been a few weeks. What should I do? Brent Ward

I've found PR less than useful (of course, it would be more useful if I had the time to do PR's myself). What I do is just submit it to WP:FAC and clean it up as concerns are raised. That's how I've gotten my last few articles to FA. — BRIAN0918 • 2007-06-18 15:59Z
Make sure you've addressed the problems that caused the article to be delisted as a GA first - maybe even see about trying to get it over that hurdle as a form of Peer Review (though the GA system is also fairly backed up). GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 18:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh... Another post unrelated to Main Page.
Notice
This page is not the place to ask general questions.
This page is for discussing the Wikipedia page "Main Page".
Use this link to find out how to ask questions and get answers.
--74.13.130.59 01:56, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe {{metatalk}} should also be added at the bottom of the page... --Howard the Duck 05:07, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah we've been down this road before. We started with metatalk and ended up with the large helpful header after loads of edits. It doesn't matter how much help these headers had, we still had about the same number of people posting unrelated items. The last consensus was to simply help people who post here, redirect them if that would be helpful to them, and not complain about it. --Monotonehell 12:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not my fault, I tried all of the relevant places and got no advice and, given that the holocaust is a significant article, im sure you wont begrudge me for asking a question on here. Also, given that with your sage advice i hope to make it featured it will be on the main page and therefore, is relevant, albeit prematurely Brent Ward
  • Actually featured articles should be discussed on their respective talk pages too. BTW, I think the significance (and large amount of controversy, complexity etc) of the article is part of the problem. Most people are probably scared off by the thought of having to deal with the monumential task of dealing with it unfortunately. And most of those who are willing to be involved probably already are so they can't peer review it Nil Einne 20:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FF

Haven't we had enough of FF FAs? I know, I know, the whole schpiel comes up each time, how I ought to improve what I want and submit it...I'm not disagreeing with the way Wikipedia works...the sight just raised an eyebrow over here. 209.190.233.66 14:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note that of the 9 oldest main page requests, fully 5 of them are for video games. Raul654 14:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Eheheh...*laughs nervously* Trigger's plot summary could be trimmed, but Cross's is just too complex (that said, there are at least a few FA precedents). I'll have to get MNSG and CT's down a couple notches. My next probable FAC, The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest, will probably have a better chance when it's done. Zeality 19:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Supressing "Main Page"

Hi, can anyone explain the technical method used to suppress the words "Main Page" on this main page? We might do the same at Wikisource. Thanks, Dovi 17:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

iirc, it has to do with the code that is currently at the beginning of MediaWiki:Monobook.css labeled "Don't display some stuff on the main page". Zzyzx11 (Talk) 01:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Missing thumbnail

Today's main page FA section is missing its thumbnail (normally in the upper right corner). The other thumbnails and POTD appear normal.

The image was originally an image of a SNES console, which I agree wouldn't really be an appropriate image for the article. I would suggest the use of a re-sized version of the image that appears in the infobox on the page. --Credema 20:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

help me do my home work

i just wanted to say the site is good but does not always have the info i need i would also like lots of info on history things like the battle of hastings ok things like that

Have you tried typing "battle of hastings" into the search box? It works for me. For other examples, it may help if you use the right capitalisation, ie "Battle of Hastings".-gadfium 20:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You must remember to use correct spellings and capitalisation, as Wikipedia's search function is not as forgiving as that of Google or other search engines in case of errors. --Credema 20:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just so you know,

. ffm ✎talk 20:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually personally I always use Google for that reason (amongst others). Usually just typing the subject is enough, if necessary you can add wiki or wikipedia to the search. Obviously the proper way would be site:en.wikipedia.org. Cheers Nil Einne 07:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

aaand, if you're anywhere beyond middle school, you shouldn't trust Wikipedia to do your homework beyond the barest of facts. Take everything you read here with a mine of salt. 209.190.233.66 20:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is fine as a research tool, but never a source. --74.14.18.116 03:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. And I'm not positive it's as bad as 209 frames it. GracenotesT § 07:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
hm ... depending on the subject matter, probably. GracenotesT § 07:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These responses might overwhelm you but then again, we are here to help. Basically if its an FA article (Featured Article) its good for research. Use wikipedia as a basis for obtaining possible facts in other articles. Then you might wanna do some googling on them later to prove them. Hope that helps. Tourskin 21:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Disagree. Wikipedia is a great source of info, as long as its sources are cited. I'm a college-level student and I use Wikipedia all the time to get info. Then I follow the "External Links" to back up numbers and other data. Either way, Wikipedia talk pages are not a forum, but a place to discuss how to make the article better. Useight 22:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia "globe" in the very top left corner

Why is it only the English Wikipedia has a globe with aliased borders? (esp. visible at the bottom of it) --84.159.33.52 08:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can't give you a reason for it, but you can find a gallery of the international logos here: Commons:Wikipedia. I wouldn't suggest making any changes to them though, seems how they are all copyrighted, not released under GFDL like everything else... You could suggest a change be made somewhere on the Commons. Sbrools (talk . contribs) 01:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please update ITN.

Please update ITN. There are a couple of good suggestions at WP:ITN/C waiting for admins' approval. Thanks. --74.13.124.138 11:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you again, Admin:Zzyzx11. --74.14.23.198 04:42, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article regarding Gujarati page

Hello,

I was surfing thorugh your website, i also saw the gujarati page on your website, i noticed few things i thought they were worth mentioning:

like the tool box is wrongly mentioned as "hathiyar ni peti", actually it should be called "sadhano ni peti"

if you wish i would help you out with translation in gujarati.

I am working in Pune, Maharashtra, India and Imy mother tongue is Gujarati, hence i am able to read, write and understand that language well enough.

<e-mail address removed> - Dreaded Walrus

you can contact me on that, i'll help wikipedia voluntaryly as i personally like this website a lot.

regards,

Shivraj Sharma Sharma shivraj 13:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to be talking about the Gujarati Wikipedia. Your assistance would be much appreciated, but you should join that Wikipedia, as this is the English language Wikipedia. An administrator there should be able to help you. If you feel like working on system messages, it appears that 0% of these have been translated into Gujarati. Updates can be posted to bugzilla. - BanyanTree 14:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

German Wikipedia

As u can read here, the german wikipedia has reached now 600.000 articles. --134.147.117.190 23:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats. ffm ✎talk 00:50, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where is Boca?

I has won the Libertadores and even it is not in the wikinews!!! Where do you live? In the first world?? Give poors the posibility to emocionate a little —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.250.93.141 (talk • contribs).

For those not aware, this user is talking about Boca Juniors, a football (soccer) team, who have recently won the Copa Libertadores, which is the South American equivalent of the UEFA Champions League. --Dreaded Walrus t c 00:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reason that this is not on WP:ITN is because no suggestion has been made at WP:ITN/C. ffm ✎talk 00:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
According to Chris Pontius, the Boca Juniors aren't very polite. Hahah! Zeality 02:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sister Project Positions

I absolutely love the new position of the sister projects. Great thanks to Pharos for implementing it! I hope it's there to stay, this should give the sister projects a huge boost. (In both users, contributions, and vandalism). Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 03:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I came here to say that I really dislike the new position of the sister projects. It really adds a lot of clutter to the Main Page, and pushes the actual content of wikipedia so that it is less than half the page when the screen first loads. I appreciate the intent, but the sister projects are, from a design standpoint, way too big and way too prominent, right now. I hope we reconsider this move. Also, the "sister projects" table is a different style which I find jarring with the Featured Article and In the News tables. The whole thing looks unappealing and distracting to me, I hope we go back to the old version. --JayHenry 03:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Raul already reverted, but I want to agree with this. People come to Wikipedia looking for encyclopedic content, putting a large sister projects template up top detracts from that and displaces more relevant content. Dragons flight 03:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, he reverted while I was typing my thoughts. Thanks Raul! So that nobody is confused, I was objecting to the design of this version of the Main Page. --JayHenry 03:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm guessing you all didn't peruse the discussion at Talk:Main Page#Radical proposal to help our Wikimedia sister projects. The new version takes up LESS room than the previous version. I really do think you should give it a little bit of time to see how it does. —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 04:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ugh. Why push my content further down, making it harder to get to? Very Microsoft & evil. --Knulclunk 04:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Elipongo, you are right, I don't regularly check Talk:Main Page to see if major changes are coming, but when changes do occur, I believe I have a right to state my opinion of them. My point isn't that the page is bigger. My point is that the actual content of Wikipedia was much lower. Thus, when a browser window first opened the main page of the new version, less than half of what was displayed on an actual computer monitor was wikipedia content. There's a difference between clutter at the top of a page and clutter at the bottom. (Consider a newspaper if you will, a well-designed newspaper has a masthead of perhaps two inches, below are the main stories, and then at the bottom it will have a number of keys and guides. Same thing here.) I think the intention was good, but I did not like the way it ultimately looked. I hope that makes sense. --JayHenry 04:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't ever think to stifle your right to state your opinion! I do, however, find it frustrating to watch the admins have a small scale content dispute over something that was discussed already. If I disagreed with a similar good faith edit on a regular article page, I would bring the topic up on the talk page rather than instantly revert as has been done. I agree with you pretty much in terms of the size of the new header, though. My suggestion in the original discussion was to dump the icons and just use text links. That would take up even less room and look less cluttered than the current page. —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 05:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was aware of the discussion, but didn't follow it very closely. Please don't take this personally, but I initially found the proposal so ridiculous that I assumed it would never be tried. Now that it has been tried, I am compelled to say that it is ridiculous. We are here to write and present an encyclopedia. If we can share a little free good will with other projects, then alright, but it shouldn't be pursued at the expense of the utility of the Main Page. The sister projects are a footnote to what Wikipedia is, not a feature. As such their placement at bottom of the page is reasonable, while placement at the top would be distracting and inappropriate. Dragons flight 06:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, users don't need to see the sister projects up at the top like that. I think that the proposal was mainly aimed at new users, people without accounts. Is there some way that a cookie or something like that can be set, so that a section containing the sister projects can be hidden for people with accounts or for people with accounts more than X days old? I know I've seen similar things done with a [dismiss] button on the right; can something similar be done here? That way new users (who are not aware of the sister projects) will see them, but regulars (who know very much about them) won't. I do firmly believe though that moving things up helps (which is why I moved Error Reports above the Table of Contents), because people have the attention span of a gnat and aren't likely at all to think there's anything like WikiBooks or Wiktionary out there — Wikipedia is the most well-known out of any of them. Like I said, regular users don't need to see the clutter of the bar, but I'm sure there's some way to get new visitors aware of these projects. —The preceding signed comment was added by Cadby (talk • contribs) 07:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC) [reply]

I'd oppose that too. It's nice to help out sister projects, but it shouldn't pushing down our actual content. ShadowHalo 07:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point. Okay, stupid idea #3: What if we put something in Wikipedia:Introduction that links to sister projects? That way new users interested in editing can be introduced to the other projects at the same time, and it wouldn't impact the Main Page or the people that just want to read but not to get an account. —The preceding signed comment was added by Cadby (talk • contribs) 07:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC) [reply]

I agree that moving the sister projects listing up is a bad idea, but we should think about using the smaller version of this section that User:Cadby Waydell Bainbrydge developed. Here's what we have now:

Wikipedia is written by volunteer editors and hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation, a non-profit organization that also hosts a range of other volunteer projects:

Here's the compact version: Template:WikipediaSister-header Λυδαcιτγ 18:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've altered it again to make it more Main-Page-like:

Wikimedia Foundation Sister Projects

Wiktionary
Wikinews
Wikiquote
Wikibooks
Wikispecies
Wikisource
Wikiversity
Commons
Meta-Wiki
Wiktionary
Dictionary and thesaurus 		Wikinews
Free-content news 		Wikiquote
Collection of quotations 		Wikibooks
Free textbooks and manuals 		Wikispecies
Directory of species 		Wikisource
Free-content library 		Wikiversity
Free learning materials and activities 		Commons
Shared media repository 		Meta-Wiki
Wikimedia project coordination

—The preceding signed comment was added by Cadby (talk • contribs) 02:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC) [reply]

where'd islam go

wasn't it supposed to be featured today??24.109.218.172 00:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

oh it was in an edit war ok. i know now.24.109.218.172 00:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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