Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

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This page is for reporting possible breaches of the external links guideline. Post questions here regarding whether particular external links are appropriate or compliant with Wikipedia's guidelines for external links. Provide links to the relevant article(s), talk page(s), and external links(s) that are being discussed. Questions about prominent websites like YouTube, IMDb, Twitter, or Find a Grave might be addressed with information from this guide. Sections older than 10 days archived by MiszaBot. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) If you mention specific editors, you must notify them. You may use {{subst:ELN-notice}} to do so.
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Linking to a wiki for pop culture references

Somewhere, I don't remember where, probably buried in a discussion page for pop culture policy proposals or on something Star Trek or South Park related, I saw a suggestion to move "in pop culture" lists to an off-site wiki — Wikia was encouraged, IIRC — and just link to that from the External Links section of an article. So I decided to experiment with that strategy, moving Roller derby in popular culture to Wikia so that it would no longer be part of the roller derby article. A link to the wiki was left in the external links section, and over the last year and a half, nobody seemed to mind. The roller derby article looked much better, having its media references restricted to research-worthy nonfiction documentaries & literature, and its external links section had a link to the Wikia page. In the meantime, I've smacked down occasional attempts to add pop culture references back in by people who didn't notice the external link, which to me indicates that people are interested in the topic. Maintenance hasn't been a big deal, and I'd say the experiment was a success.

That is, until yesterday, when User:DreamGuy twice removed the link. He stated in an edit summary, Please read WP:EL -- wikis are generally not allowed in links, and the rules on pop culture says nothing about offloading info to another site. Sorry. That's not how things are done here.

Well, of course now I can't find where the offloading suggestion came from, and I didn't make a note of it at the time, so I'm on the defensive on that point. And I've read and re-read WP:EL. It's true that links to open wikis without lots of editors are generally discouraged, but links to directories like DMOZ are generally encouraged.

Now, I was a DMOZ editor for a while, curating the roller derby links. I find it puzzling that the roller derby article's external links section can contain a link to that section of DMOZ which I alone curated, but, according to one interpretation of WP:EL, cannot contain a link to a Wikia page containing the contents of the former pop culture section, and which I alone have curated (so far). My strategy with both was to make them as comprehensive as possible, to reduce the volume of trivia edits and encourage people to focus on the rest of the article.

To me it seems like in the absence of editors willing/able to do tenacious pruning, the best course of action is simply steering the would-be adders of pop culture information to Wikia, just like steering the would-be adders of random related links to DMOZ is. As I said, it seemed to work out great; most people who care about roller derby references in pop culture wound up on Wikia, and didn't attempt to add that trivia to the article. Without the link, I feel the maintenance burden of the roller derby article is just going to increase for no good reason. I'm also not a fan of hit-and-run deletions like this; I'm doubtful he really intends to stick around and deal with the fallout.

So I guess my question is, should I continue to challenge his removal of the link to Wikia? And if yes, does that have any ramifications for the WP:EL or whatever pop culture guidelines are now in effect, if any? —mjb (talk) 07:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Two non-bot editors is probably not sufficient to claim that it meets the usual size-and-stability requirements for an open wiki.

There's something to be said for WP:COMMONSENSE, though, and WP:ELNO is not WP:ELNEVER. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with WhatamIdoing: In general, we do not link to a wiki, but the case presented by mjb looks convincing that this is a reasonable exception (i.e. add the link to wikia). Johnuniq (talk) 23:40, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Popular culture articles are part of Wikipedia. There is no need to offload this content onto another site because DreamGuy is right, thats not how things are done here. They can be done correctly, without the need for listcruft. ELNO states "12. Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors. Mirrors or forks of Wikipedia should not be linked." -- ErgoSum•talk•trib 22:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

"It's right because it's how things are done; RTFM" is neither a rationale nor a rebuttal to any of the points raised above, so I'll rephrase:

A list of pop culture references to an article's topic is contentious for inclusion, as is a list of general links to sites related to any article's topic, presumably for the same reasons. WP:EL says it's fine to offload the general links to, say, the ODP (which is arguably in the same league as a wiki or blog), and just link to them. But for some reason it's not OK to offload the "in popular culture" list to another wiki. The only reasoning given so far for deletion of the link has been "because WP:EL says so".

DreamGuy says the list can just be included directly, but only if it's kept extremely short. But we tried that (at hit-and-run deletionist User:Kaldari's behest in 2006), and all it does is enforce an arbitrary standard of notability, and the end result is it just builds right back up again, and even the stuff we find 'notable' is still regarded by some as just a bunch of useless trivia.

This isn't just speculation; we tried it and found that by linking to a comprehensive list, the maintenance burden is minimized, people who care about that stuff find what they're looking for, the article remains free of contentious cruft, there are no arguments over the notability of some of the items in the list, and everyone concentrates on the more important aspects of the article & its related topics in Wikipedia instead of e.g. attempting to reintroduce the same pop culture references or having to police and argue with people over those attempts. So why, besides "WP:EL says so", is this such a terrible idea? —mjb (talk) 00:21, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I've asked DreamGuy to please share with us which (the trivia section or the link) is, in his opinion, the least objectionable choice for the encyclopedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:17, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. The other day, on Talk:Roller derby#Whip It and the old Pop Culture section, he said "A short section on the most notable aspects of roller derby in popular culture is a good idea for this article. Emphasis on short and notable, not just whatever trivia someone thinks up." My position is that a short list is too much trouble to police; for me, the choice is either a complete list or a link to one. I prefer the link. —mjb (talk) 03:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

If DreamGuy prefers integrating it -- and by "prefers", I mean "is volunteering to maintain it indefinitely himself", not just to demand that some other volunteer do it -- then I'd be perfectly satisfied with that outcome, too. But perhaps he'd prefer one of the other two options, since his time and energy is likely as limited as yours and mine. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

His only response was "Not the outside wiki, that's for sure. It's just spam for s [sic] site we have no control over and which has no established reliability." …which, after you and I both invited him to participate here, suggests to me he has no interest in maintaining anything or even acknowledging this discussion. —mjb (talk) 03:31, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I've pretty much given up arguing with anyone who feels discussion is useless, or that whatever !consensus we come up with at the time is fraudulent. Popular culture is a hot topic and people tend to take it personally. The problem is there is too much disagreement over pop culture, and those who don't like it seem to develop a particular hatred for it, as if it was ruining WP. I prefer the short list of "most notable" as opposed to the complete compendium of every mention of the word "chamomile" ever uttered. Who knows what is the current standard for inclusion? But that doesn't mean the list cannot be left to aid future improvement. --ErgoSum•talk•trib 21:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Persisent linker on The Wire

Hope this is the right noticeboard. I've reverted this anon user's additions twice, but keeps on adding. Avoiding wp:3rr. Basically, the user is linking to a non-notable blog and a contest. Example [1]. I posted on user's talk page to try to explain about wp:rs and wp:n, but it apparently didn't sink in. [2]

I feel the addition of the external link and content pertains to #4 and #11 of WP:ELNO. It's a non-notable blog and also promotion for their "contest". Also there are lots of copyvios on the site (youtubes, photos, etc).

Thank you --Omarcheeseboro (talk) 18:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you're right: That shouldn't be included. It's possible that it might (technically) not be an WP:EL issue, because it's being used to support article content, but it's not acceptable under any of Wikipedia's standard.

If the anon doesn't stop, please request semi-protection (at WP:RFPP) for the page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

persistent linking to own site

Matheisf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam) if you check the user's contributions, this appears to be a single-purpose account: he/she's adding a link to his/her own website to multiple articles it's only marginally relevant to. friendly talk-page advice/warnings have only escalated the misunderstandings. if anyone feels like assisting with educating this person about the relevant Wikipedia policies, that would be great - thanks. Sssoul (talk) 11:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC) request for intervention with the communication/civility aspects moved to WP:WQA - thanks Sssoul (talk) 16:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

These links fail WP:ELNO, as not being directly linked (and possibly more, does information on the site actually add to our pages?). Moreover, seeing e.g. the addition to Howlin' Wolf (diff, as far as I can see is there no page on Burnett (seeing the list on the left on the page linked, and this search for Burnett). Editor should be very strictly be advised to read the external links guideline, the spam guideline (especially WP:PROMO), and What wikipedia is not policy, and I would also suggest that the editor contacts a suitable Wikipedia:WikiProject and wait for their verdict before proceeding with addition of more links. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 17:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. All the pages I looked at for particular artists on that site were simple bios, no more than what we would expect in our own articles. So even if they were linked directly to the relevant page (where one exists), they would still fail WP:ELNO #1, for not providing anything that shouldn't be in the article itself. If there are pages with information that might warrant a link (things like detailed discographies, photo galleries, interviews, etc.), ideally someone affiliated with the site shouldn't be the one placing them. --RL0919 (talk) 18:13, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Maxi Priest

Hi, the webmaster of boterbloempje.pbworks.com has inquired as to whether her site can be reinstated on the Maxi Priest page. Relevant discussion can be found on my talkpage. I'd like to request those who comment to refrain from commenting on the webmaster's conflict of interest and look only at the external link's validity and relevance to the article. I'd like to know if this link, which is arguably superior to the official sites, can be allowed. Thanks. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR _{talk // contribs} 03:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

In addition to being a self-published free site by a fan (or at least as I could tell, not someone known in the field of music biography, or a professional writer, researcher, or anything like), I have some basic concerns. With the inclusion of lyrics and songs, is WP:ELNEVER #1 being violated? Possibly. Next, there is a lack of sourcing, verifiability (and reliability) to the text of the site. Finally, I have concerns about the accessibility of the site. I mean, first being a design snob, I hate to see centered, italicized body text, and using headers and font stylings inappropriately (need I mention 323 W3C validation errors). But additionally, the use of images without alt tags for navigation purposes renders the page inaccessible to some users with disabilities, and some mobile user. Yes, I personally do not think the webpage looks at all professional, and seems like an annoying, amateur, web 1.0 creation. Perhaps this is biasing my judgment, but I'd prefer not to link to the site for the above 3 reasons (1 possibly copyright issues, 2 lack of verifiability, 3 poor web design). -Andrew c ^[talk] 00:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I think Andrew's concern about a WP:COPYLINK violation is critically important. If the text of the copyrighted lyrics (and the photos, and everything else) is not legally licensed, then the link cannot be used anywhere on Wikipedia.

Andrew's second complaint is minor (WP:EL does not require external websites to comply with WP:V), and his third -- although I see what he's saying -- doesn't really worry me nearly as much as the WP:ELNEVER copyright problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:11, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I admitted 3 was my bias. However, 2 related to WP:ELMAYBE #4 "Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." My concern was mainly the "knowledgeable sources" part. Thanks for agreeing with 1!-Andrew c ^[talk] 01:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Linking to an author's syndicated column

(Copied from Wikipedia_talk:External_links#Linking_to_an_author.27s_syndicated_column per advise there.) When are external links to an person's syndicated column appropriate for the External links section of the person's Wikipedia biography? example

While cleaning up the spamming of by Chilangringo (talk · contribs), Projectsyndicate (talk · contribs), and 195.250.138.178 (talk · contribs) I encountered a discussion here on the links added by Chilangringo. Spamming aside, there's the question of how useful and appropriate such links are for biographies. One editor brought up ELNO#11, but I don't think applies because the external link is to a work by the subject of the biography, rather than about the person. Another editor brought up ELYES #1 and #2, but these are not official sites and there is no other mention in the biography that the person has this syndicated column. --Ronz (talk) 00:35, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The first thing I would say is that if the subject has a syndicated newspaper column, then it seems odd for that to go unmentioned within the body of the article. Leaving that aside, this situation doesn't seem to fall clearly into any of the specific rules in the EL guideline. However, the spirit of WP:ELOFFICIAL is to include non-redundant links to the subject's own content, when that content is related to the subject's notability. A syndicated column may not quite meet the definition of an official site, but it is clearly content created by the subject. So if the subject has no official website within the definition provided by the guideline, but does have a syndicated column, a link to the column seems appropriate. That said, in the specific example linked above (Robert Skidelsky, Baron Skidelsky), he does have an official website. That site already reproduces his articles, so the link to the column provides no unique content. I suspect this will be the case more commonly than not. --RL0919 (talk) 15:11, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Linking to full text of book

I was reading our articles on Sinclair Lewis and ran across Kingsblood Royal. Curiously it links to a full text version of the book. The info in the pdf claims it's in the public domain in Australia. A quick review of copyright law in Australia indicates they're right, but the book was published in 1947 with a copyright renewal in the United States. My understanding of WP:ELNEVER and WP:LINKVIO is that we shouldn't link to items that would be copyright violations in the country where the Wikipedia servers are located (US). Am I right or am I misreading things? --Rkitko ^(talk) 01:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

"Aesthetic Realism is a cult"

Aesthetic Realism is a small group based in New York City. It sees itself as a philosophical assocation, while some outsiders and former members consider it a cult. In addition to an offial website, members of the group have created many personal webpages about it. A former member has also created a critical website, Aesthetic Realism is a cult. External links to these pages have been a cause of contention. I've proposed to involved editors that only the one official link be listed in the EL section. The webmaster of the critical site believes that his site belongs in the listing. His website includes hard-to-find press clippings and advertisements placed by the group over the years. He contends that the materials are used by permission or are fair use (and so are not copyright violations), and that the site does not count as a personal website because it does not concern personal matters. I'm posting this here to get views from uninvolved editors.   Will Beback  talk  02:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Is there any way to link to the encyclopedic material without going through this particular site? If not, is there any way of linking directly to the site's valuable material in a way which bypasses the contentious material? ThemFromSpace 03:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe it would be legitimate to link directly to the press articles that are reprinted with permission. Those can be used as sources, so there's no need to place them in the EL section. I've asked the webmaster/editor to add his own comments here, so I won't say more until he posts.   Will Beback  talk  04:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Template for linking and logging

Usage == This template is for use with the entry log on both MediaWiki Spam-blacklist and Meta Spam-blacklist. Additionaly this template can be used to link to specific "permalinked" cases and discussions anywhere on the en.Wikipeda project. This template is a self-reference and so is part of the Wikipedia project rather than the encyclopaedic content.

{{WPELN|0#section_name}}

• {{WPELN|182725895#Section_name}}
• Insert the oldid 182725895 a hash "#" and the Section_name (Underscoring_spaces_where_applicable):

For example:

{{WPELN|182725895#Blacklist_logging}}

results in:

See External links/Noticeboard Item

--Hu12 (talk) 20:10, 9 November 2009 (UTC)