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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ohms law (talk | contribs) at 17:42, 13 March 2010 (→‎Register: fix). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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WikiProject iconManual of Style
WikiProject iconThis page falls within the scope of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style articles
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This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate.
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See also
Wikipedia talk:Writing better articles
Wikipedia talk:Article titles
Wikipedia talk:Quotations
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/quotation and punctuation

Contradiction regarding inline citations

This discussion has been transferred to Wikipedia talk:Footnotes as per #Warring editors on WP:FN

Size of archival pages

During five weeks in January and February, I have been maintaining Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory, especially by adding links to archived sections, subsections, and sub-subsections. I have become even more aware than I previously was of how varied the archival pages are in regard to size, number of sections, and number of bytes. The latest one, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 113, already has 57 sections. Who or what determines when an archival page is closed and a new one is started? -- Wavelength (talk) 21:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Normally it's the call to User:MiszaBot/config at the start of this talk page. Currently it specifies |maxarchivesize=500K, which sounds about right. You don't want archives too small (as we can't handle hundreds and hundreds of them) and you don't want them too large (they take too long to download). Eubulides (talk) 22:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I clicked the "edit this page" tab for Archive 113, and read "This page is 416 kilobytes long." -- Wavelength (talk) 01:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a list of 120 numbered archives, showing the number of kilobytes beside each one that indicated the size when I clicked "edit this page", and showing a blank for each existing one that did not.

-- Wavelength (talk) 21:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Many of those archives are way too small. If someone has the time, I suggest coalescing the archives so that each page is about 500 kilobytes. The result should be a much smaller (and more manageable) number of archive pages. Eubulides (talk) 21:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have done that on several talk pages, especially after I convert to bot archiving. I agree that 500K is about right, but 750K is not unreasonable. I also would not object to someone combining the older arc hives to reduce the number and increase the size of each. The only question I might have is, are there links for reference purposes to any of the archives? If so, they should be updated so that they point to the new archive number. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OTOH, archive 108 is too big! Are people archiving manually? Does the Bot have days off? Confused... --Jubilee♫clipman 07:08, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't change things unless you are willing to update the "what links here" links (and section links). And then again, I doubt it's worth it since many discussions refers to "Archive 83" and "Archive 102" without linking. We'd be breaking a lot of discussions. Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 15:46, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not cause short pages to coalesce. (English has many verbs ending in "esce" [1], but I have only known them to be used intransitively. See also Inchoative verb and Inchoative aspect.) Please do not split any pages which are deemed to be too long. I brought attention to the variety in the size of the archival pages so that good decisions can be made in regard to page length from this moment on.
-- Wavelength (talk) 19:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seconded - please do not split, nor merge, any of these archives. They probably contain incoming links. I think 500k is a bit of the high side, though (but again, any change should be on a go-forward basis). –xenotalk 19:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have just sent a message to User:Misza13, who operates the archiving program. (I recommend that every user who operates an archiving program also watchlist every talk page archived by the program.) -- Wavelength (talk) 19:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why? He's simply the bot-writer. The bot itself is essentially operated by the user who places the archival tag. –xenotalk 19:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User:MiszaBot says "This user account is a bot operated by Misza13 (talk)." -- Wavelength (talk) 20:02, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

At User talk:Misza13#Size of archival pages (permanent link here), User:Wwoods provided the following information.

Checking the edit histories, the small ones were done manually. The large ones were done by the bot, but sometimes the counter gets stuck, so it keeps adding to old archives as well as to the one that's supposed to be active. See 108, 109, & 110.

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Passive voice

Could I add the following text to the Passive voice section:

For example, biographical articles often are primarily in the active voice ("he wrote his final book") while articles about scientific subjects are often primarily in the passive voice ("the first atomic bomb was tested in New Mexico").

? Hyacinth (talk) 16:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These generalizations are problematic. It really does depend entirely on meaning and context, and the flow of the sentences around it. SlimVirgin TALK contribs
[Since there are none,] what context, what flow of what sentences? Hyacinth (talk) 16:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Notice that the "Passive voice" section is one sentence while the "Nouns" section is paragraphs. It's like you and Wikipedia are telling me it's too complicated to explain, which gives me little confidence in either of you. Hyacinth (talk) 17:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, let's make it a manual! Hyacinth (talk) 17:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about:

For example, biographical articles often are primarily in the active voice while articles about scientific subjects are often primarily in the passive voice.

? Hyacinth (talk) 16:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it flunks the reality test. I opened two books about scientific subjects (The ABC of Relativity by Bertrand Russell, and The New Cosmos by Albrecht Unsöld) to a random page. I found only one passive sentence out of the first ten sentences from Russell ("Such an interval is called 'space-like.'") and zero out of ten from Unsöld. "Often" must not mean very often. Art LaPella (talk) 19:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Opening The Feynman Lectures on Physics at random: "For instance, two sections of waveguide are usually connected together by means of flanges, as can be seen in Fig. 24–9. Such connections can, however, cause serious energy losses, because the surface currents must flow across the joint, which may have a relatively high resistance. One way to avoid such losses is to make the flanges as shown in the cross section drawn in Fig. 24–10. A small space is left between the adjacent sections of the guide, and a groove is cut in the face of one of the flanges to make a small cavity of the type shown in Fig. 23–16(c). The dimensions are chosen so that this cavity is resonant at the frequency being used." (All emphasis mine.) YMMV, of course. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 20:47, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Opening A Student's Introduction to English Grammar at random:* "Some writers on scientific topics appear to think that passives are required for objectivity (The mice were anaesthetised rather than We anaesthetised the mice). At the other extreme, some usage books and style guides insist that the passive is better avoided altogether. Both policies are excessive: passives are fully grammatical and acceptable, and a passive is often the right stylistic choice." [Italics in the original, underlining mine.]
* I can't lie convincingly, can I? ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 20:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Examining your example: three of the past participles that you italicise are being used adjectivally, without the associated copular verb that would render it a passive verb. So you are left with 6 passive verbs. On the other hand, to highlight the active verbs: "For instance, two sections of waveguide are usually connected together by means of flanges, as can be seen in Fig. 24–9. Such connections can, however, cause serious energy losses, because the surface currents must flow across the joint, which may have a relatively high resistance. One way to avoid such losses is to make the flanges as shown in the cross section drawn in Fig. 24–10. A small space is left between the adjacent sections of the guide, and a groove is cut in the face of one of the flanges to make a small cavity of the type shown in Fig. 23–16(c). The dimensions are chosen so that this cavity is resonant at the frequency being used." So the balance is 6-5 in favour of passive verbs: scarcely grounds for describing this style as primarily written in the passive voice. Kevin McE (talk) 12:19, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some past participles are adjectives, but I don't think it's the case here: they are non-finite clauses corresponding to the finite clauses "as it is shown", "which is drawn" etc. ("Shown picture" and "drawn cross section" would sound weird.) But my point was not that; it was that the "density" of passive voices can vary widely even across texts on the same topic (in this case, physics). ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 13:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lying is a thing best left to experts.  ;-) --Jubilee♫clipman 21:18, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Great, but we're not writing the Bertrand Russell "Manual of Style". Hyacinth (talk) 01:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Some writers of manuals try avoid any actual guidelines or advice. Others try to give a little bit of guidance. The best approach may depend on context."

"Some people think one should always carry an umbrella. Some people think this is absurd. The best approach may vary, depending on context." Of course, the context may be described: rain or the lack.

So. What are the contexts? Does A Student's Introduction to English Grammar have any advice? Hyacinth (talk) 01:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The real problem with your suggestions, Hyacinth, is that almost everything we put in the Wikipedia MoS is interpreted as a rule. Yes, the whole MoS is marked as a guideline. Yes, you used the word "primarily" in appropriate places. There will still be editors who will take it to mean only write bio articles in the active voice and only write scientific articles in the passive voice. Then they go changing someone else's legit passive to active or vice versa, and we get edit wars. No, it shouldn't work this way, but it does. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The main problem, for me, is that the use of the passive or active voice in a particular sentence does not depend on the subject matter of the article; it depends on what you want to write about the topic. So biographical articles may contain a lot of information on what happened to a person:
  • Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963 . . .
  • She was sexually assaulted . . .
  • Ruth Ellis was the last woman to be executed in the United Kingdom. She was convicted of the murder of her lover, David Blakely, and hanged at Holloway Prison, London by Albert Pierrepoint.
  • She was arrested immediately.
and a scientific article may contain lots of statements about the action of a substance:
  • Atropine increases firing of the sinoatrial node (SA) and conduction through the atrioventricular node (AV) of the heart, opposes the actions of the vagus nerve, blocks acetylcholine receptor sites, and decreases bronchial secretions. In general, atropine lowers the parasympathetic activity of all muscles and glands regulated by the parasympathetic nervous system. This occurs because atropine is a competitive antagonist of the muscarinic acetylcholine receptors . . . Therefore, it may cause swallowing difficulties and reduced secretions.
--Boson (talk) 10:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to avoid writing "2+2=4" because "someone" "out there" MIGHT interpret it as "2-2=6". I think living one's life that way might qualify one for a psychological diagnosis.

However, if you look at what I wrote, the last thing I asked was, what are the (more specific) contexts (implying: if not article subject)? And for use in explaining those contexts, where did you derive the supposed knowledge you are trying to explain to me from? Presumably that source or those sources would be of assistance. Hyacinth (talk) 11:38, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about:

For example, on Wikipedia details in biographical articles often are in the active voice while details in articles about scientific subjects are often in the passive voice.

? Hyacinth (talk) 11:48, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think choice of active vs. passive voice is something we should give any guidance on. For editors with a healthy sense of language it's unnecessary. For editors with no such sense there is a huge danger that they will interpret it in ways it wasn't intended and then defend bad style against other editors who know what they are doing. This is not a hypothetical danger; it happens all the time with the MOS, and it happens all the time with style advice in printed books, especially when it concerns active/passive voice.
I don't see the value in the sentence you are proposing. We want the relevant parts of MOS to be read and understood. Drowning them in irrelevancies is not going to help. E.g. we could also have a section explaining the origins of small letters in Carolingian minuscules. That would be similarly helpful. Hans Adler 11:52, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What Hans says. The choice is so often based on a number of criteria. These subtleties are difficult to express in a style guide. Tony (talk) 11:57, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hyacinth: the last thing I asked was, what are the (more specific) contexts (implying: if not article subject)?
I attempted to address that. Though there may (or may not) be some correlation, that is not helpful in choosing what to write and is thus of limited relevance. The important "context" is not whether the article is about a biographical or scientific topic but (for instance) the immediate context of a given part of the article. However, even this context is of limited relevance; what matters is what you want to say about the topic, and in what order.
I agree with what others have written: it would not be easy to offer succinct advice on use of the active or passive voice. If we wanted to give such advice (which I don't really think we do), the following points might be more relevant than the article topic:
  1. The prose is often more readable (and "encyclopedic") if sentences and other structures begin with something known and end with new information; longer phrases are also better placed toward the end of a sentence. Judicious use of the active and passive voice may help achieve this desired positioning.
  2. Sometimes the person responsible for an action is unknown or irrelevant, or is best mentioned in a later sentence. In such cases, the passive voice is often appropriate.
  3. To maintain a consistent perspective, it is often appropriate for the grammatical subject of consecutive sentences to be a noun phrase or pronoun representing the general topic of the article. If that subject is the agent of the action, it will be natural to use the active voice, but if the subject is the target of an action the passive will be more natural.
In an article on John F. Kennedy, for instance, the section on his assassination might naturally begin
"President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, Texas, at 12:30 p.m. Central Standard Time on November 22, 1963, while on a political trip to Texas . . .
He was shot once in the upper back and was killed with a final shot to the head.
He was pronounced dead at 1:00 p.m."
The passive voice is used because we are talking about Kennedy and he was the target of the action. The fact that this section is in the context of a biographical article is completely irrelevant. In an article about Lee Harvey Oswald, the same information might have been presented using the active voice.
--Boson (talk) 13:02, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it really were a "might," Hyacinth, then I might agree with you, but with regard to the MoS being interpreted as absolute rules, then it's more of a "has been in the past, repeatedly, and is extremely likely to be again."
If you feel strongly about the passive voice, you could always submit an essay about it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:01, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hyacinth, the SIEG is a grammar, not a style guide, but it does briefly describe the difference in focus between the active and passive voices, and what it says is essentially what Boson explained. I guessed that any native speaker of any nominative–accusative language with SVO default word order and a passive voice sufficiently similar to English would understand that intuitively, but apparently I was wrong. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 13:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What's this? Bash Hyacinth Day? Well, that's him told I guess. LOL! --Jubilee♫clipman 03:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't appear that Strunk nor White, or a host of other people, gave up because something, "would not be easy to offer succinct advice on". I believe they simply tried harder.

If "passive voice" is a style issue and not a grammar issue why is it the first thing under the grammar section? Hyacinth (talk) 03:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strunk and White is meant to be more comprehensive than the MoS is. In general, if the editors already understand something well enough, then the MoS does not need to elaborate on it. The way I see it, the MoS should fix problems for Wikipedia. If problems with the passive vs. active are so rare as to be insignificant, then the MoS does not need an elaborate section on the passive voice. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I could have attempted to picked a more general set of heroes, such as a Gandhi or a Roosevelt, but I figured that would actually be more controversial. You seem to have missed my point, and I'm beginning to think some respondents here are either doing it on purpose or taking so little time to read before responding that you may as well have.
There is a difference between, "we shouldn't do this because it would be outside of our intended scope of limited comprehensiveness," and, "we shouldn't do it 'cause it'd be too darn hard!" Hyacinth (talk) 11:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you picked the wrong "heroes". [2] Ozob (talk) 12:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. In the first sentence of the lead, MoS does indeed declare itself to be a Style guide (wikilinked) and I would say that the point is found in the first sentence of that wikilinked article: "A style guide or style manual is a set of standards for design and writing of documents, either for general use or for a specific publication or organization [my italics]". The latter applies in this case. MoS is not for general use but for defining standards, where necessary, applicable to WP articles. PL290 (talk) 08:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, Hyacinth. We've given a couple of reasons why we shouldn't add your line about scientific content vs. biographical content: It would either mislead Wikipedia editors or be unnecessarily long and detailed. Can you give us a reason why we should? I don't see that it would help Wikipedia in any way, but if you feel I've overlooked some advantage in it, I'm willing to hear you out. Is there some problem that you believe that line would solve? (Note: I am a proponent of counting real problems only, as in "This happened and I think it'll happen again," and not imaginary problems, "I think that this looks like it would happen.") Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever Strunk and White attempted to do, they miserably failed. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 16:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the professor's unpublished paper: Strunk & White succeeded admirably. I cling to the 1959 edition: it is a simple, straightforward guide that will, if followed, improve most individuals' writing. For every critic, most of whom are unknown outside their immediate families, there are 30 endorsers. Recall W. W. Rouse Ball's retort to criticisms of Euclid's Elements as a text on geometry: "[T]he fact that for two thousand years it was the usual text-book on the subject raises a strong presumption that it is not unsuitable for that purpose." Ball, W.W. Rouse (1960 [1908]), A Short Account of the History of Mathematics (4th ed. ed.), New York: Dover Publications, p. 55, ISBN 0-486-20630-0 {{citation}}: |edition= has extra text (help); Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link). While I certainly do not rank Strunk & White with Euclid, its critics are less notable, and worthy, than their target.
As for the main question, I use the passive voice when appropriate. However, far more writing, especially writing that is not edited by professionals, suffers from overuse than from underuse of the passive voice. If a bot accurately converted every passive voice construction in English Wikipedia to the active voice, it would do far more good than harm (although it would do some harm). The idea that the passive voice should be favored in scientific writing because it is prevalent there (to the extent that is the case) is ridiculous. Do you every read patents? Sentence after sentence begins It is well understood that ... [by whom? a person having ordinary skill in the pertinent art? the author's mother?] A long-standing problem has been the ... It will surely be appreciated that ... It is flabby, weak, deliberately vague, and leads to premature hair loss among readers.—Finell 20:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not entirely convinced that such a bot would produce an improvement. I just looked at the latest new article that was more than a couple of lines (Bleckley Inn) and I was not sure how a bot would be expected to improve it. Perhaps you really mean "Most sentences that use the passive could be improved by being rewritten" (and some of the improved versions would use the active voice). Of course "It will surely be appreciated that ..." is "flabby" and "weak", but what does that really have to do with the use of the passive? Would you recommend "Someone will surely appreciate that . . .", or "Everybody knows that . . .", or "All right-thinking men know that . . ."? "A long-standing problem has been the . . ." also shows that you do not require the passive voice to achieve the desired degree of imprecision. --Boson (talk) 00:07, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The passive voice lends itself to these kinds of problems. The passive voice is wordier, which is one strike against it. No one would write an active voice sentence without a grammatical subject as the actor; actor-less passive voice sentences are common. When instructed to write a sentence in the active voice, the writer will usually find a more concrete subject than Somebody or All right-thinking men. To recast my example, Yarn manufacturers know that .... They have been unable to increase productivity for eight years because .... The present invention increases throughput by ....—Finell 02:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"A long-standing problem has been the ..." is not in the passive voice. So, if the aim of Strunk and White's guidance about passives was to confuse their readers' ideas of what a passive clause is, they did succeed. :-) ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 09:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about this as replacement for the current MoS sentence:

When adding material to articles that is overgeneralized, imprecise, flabby, weak, deliberately vague, unsourced, confusing, or badly written in any other way, the choice of whether to do so using the passive voice (this was done) or the active (he did this) depends entirely on the context, and is left to the discretion of editors.

PL290 (talk) 09:54, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about: "Editors have no business should avoid adding material to articles that is overgeneralized, imprecise, flabby, weak, deliberately vague, unsourced, confusing, or badly written in any other way". That's probably nearer the mark... --Jubilee♫clipman 10:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I have just realised why the suggestion that we should avoid passive voice stinks: it reeks strongly of prescriptivism. We should not be in the business of telling our editors how to write, by telling them which voice/mood/tense/number/case to use when, but rather of gently suggesting ways to clarify the meaning. Descriptivism has to be the way forward here but only as it pertains to semantics rather than grammar or syntax. Rant over (for now) --Jubilee♫clipman 09:48, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The MoS is too long already. I see no justification for adding a meaningless passage on this topic. Tony (talk) 12:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The existing "Passive voice" section is not very meaningful, either. Whether to use the present or past tense also depends entirely on the context, as does whether to use the singular or plural number, yadda yadda yadda. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 12:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, Jubilee. Prescriptivism is not the enemy and it's made out to be one far too often. An MoS is an essentially prescriptive document and if we acknowledge that, we'll make a better one. What we should not do is either make up invented rules or enforce unnecessary ones. That's not "prescriptivism," though. That's just ego.
As for the current passage, we redid it a couple of weeks ago as a reaction to the previous text. Now that the dust has settled, this might be a good time to reexamine it. 74.105.143.208 (talk) 13:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
User:A. di M. is right, and this shows the whole point yet again. Except that in the case of passive voice it's become necessary, unfortunately, to make that statement. Maybe it should be moved to the General principles section, subsumed into a general statement about what MoS is and is not prescriptive about, something that perhaps needs to be made clearer anyway. PL290 (talk) 13:43, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hyphens vs. dashes in German federal-state names

I searched the archives but didn't find anything directly related, so I ask here now. What exactly is the rationale for using dashes instead of hyphens in names like Mecklenburg-Vorpommern? M-V actually is a conjunction of equal proper nouns (the state was formed through the merger of Mecklenburg and Vorpommern). And what's the difference between such state names and hyphenated (sur)names then?
Please also note this short discussion on Koavf's talk page that includes some interesting aspects. Any input or help (in understanding) appreciated :-) --:bdk: 02:05, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also My response, for what it's worth. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
bdk is right. Compound names are hyphenated. Endashes are disjunctive in nature, indicating two separate items or places, such as in a "from-to" combination. A "Chicago–Detroit train", for example, is a train that runs from Chicago to Detroit, two separate cities. Were North Rhine-Wetphalia dashed, it would mean the state wasn't one state, but two separate things. As that's not the case, they shouldn't be dashed.
Frankly, it's all the Allies fault. They're the ones who drew the current German state borders. (I kid). oknazevad (talk) 02:36, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Right That's exactly what they are: two different things. (e.g.) Baden–Württemberg is a state composed of Baden and Württemberg. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:04, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But that's just it. Baden and Württemberg no longer have any independence. Baden-Württemberg is a permanent combination, not a temporary connection between two still independent entities. The analogy to a marriage that Ozob cites below is absolutely correct. oknazevad (talk) 19:10, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This one is an easy call: these are double-barrelled names, not disjuncts. Just to check, I looked at what high-quality English-language sources use. A quick search in Google Scholar for the phrase "Mecklenburg Vorpommern" (with the quotes) shows "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern" (with a hyphen) (doi:10.1002/fedr.200411043, doi:10.1002/iroh.19910760314 [3], [4]) and at this point I stopped looking: clearly the hyphen is more popular in English and this is a double-barreled name. Similarly, a search for "North Rhine Westphalia" showed only hyphens (see, for example, PMID 20159071), so use a hyphen there too, as in "North Rhine-Westphalia". The articles should be moved back to their hyphenated names. Eubulides (talk) 04:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Following Eubulides confirmations, I decided to be slighlty bold and moved the double-barelled states back to the hyphenated versions. (PS, Eubulides, unfixed your sig, which seems to have fallen victim to a bug that's been floating about that causes incomplete signatures.) oknazevad (talk) 06:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
MOS What other sources do in terms of styling is not incumbent upon Wikipedia; that's the entire purpose behind a style guide. In point of fact, hyphens are probably more common in cases such as the one given above: "Chicago-Detroit train" is probably a lot more common than "Chicago–Detroit train." Again, this would be where a style guide would function in ignoring what is common (and poor typography) in favor of a consistent internal style. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:04, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This argument would be stronger if some high-quality English-language sources used en dashes in German state names. But I found none, despite a search. It's a bit much to claim that a particular usage is "poor typography" when Wiley and Routledge are doing it the "poor" way and nobody is doing it the other way. The MoS says that double-barreled names use hyphens, so this is not a question of using a consistent style; it's a question of whether these names are double-barreled, which they do indeed appear to be. Eubulides (talk) 18:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think these names should be hyphenated. Consider, as an analogy, the case of surnames. Suppose Mr. Smith marries Miss Jones and they decide to combine their surnames. The usual practice is to write Smith-Jones (with a hyphen), not Smith–Jones (with an en dash). The reason is that Smith and Jones are no longer independent elements of the name: It is now wrong to refer to Mrs. Jones, for example; one can only refer to Mrs. Smith-Jones, formerly Miss Jones. In the same way, it is now incorrect to refer to the German federal state of Schleswig, because the region formerly known Schleswig and the region formerly known as Holstein have been unified, and the name of this unified region is Schleswig-Holstein.

An en dash, on the other hand, is used when the two items being connected are independent. One could talk about the Harz mountain range of Lower Saxony–Saxony-Anhalt–Thuringia because each of those elements is independent and can be used on its own. If Mr. Smith and Miss Jones chose not to get married but instead to start a law firm, one would call the firm Smith–Jones because the names Smith and Jones remain independent. This is not the case for German states, so an en dash is inappropriate. Ozob (talk) 16:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe not quite on-topic, but I've always thought "federal state" is a lousy way of translating the German Bundesstaat. The German word means one of the states in a larger federation. "Federal state" suggests a state that is a federation composed of such smaller units. This seems like a case where a bad translation persists simply because there isn't any good one. Michael Hardy (talk) 16:41, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
...by contrast, translating Eidgenössisch as "Swiss federal" conveys the intended meaning (in those cases where it means that) very well, while losing all of the word's original literal meaning. Michael Hardy (talk) 16:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Bundesstaat may mean both. I personally only use it in the meaning state that is a federation composed of such smaller units, not for any of the single states. --Rosenzweig (talk) 17:40, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't realized the term was used in that other sense. Is there any decent term in German for a state that belongs to a federal union, if that word isn't it? Michael Hardy (talk) 04:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
.....in the German article linked to above I see the phrase "Gliedstaat eines Gesamtstaats". But Gliedstaat alone seems as if it could be used for other concepts, e.g. a member of the International Postal Union (or whatever it's called). I'll look into this further....... Michael Hardy (talk) 04:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Surely "Baden–Württemberg" should be written with a hyphen ... Tony (talk) 05:08, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, Gliedstaat has only the desired meaning; you would not apply it to a member of the Postal Union. Its only disadvantage is that it sounds very formal. Bundesstaat usually refers to a cohesive state subdivided into smaller states, as opposed to a Staatenbund, which is a looser federation of states that together form a state. The most common German term for a state that is a member of a bigger state is Bundesland. So a member of a Bundesstaat is typically a Bundesland. The problem is that when we just put together nouns we can't distinguish between "federal" and "federated". However Gliedstaat solves the problem by using "member" instead of "federation" in the compound. Hans Adler 09:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Foreign titles

I am working on an article with quite a lot of French aristocratic titles. I am assured by a French speaker that French titles (such as marquis) are never capitalised, but to my eye it looks strange in English, especially when the noun that follows, (eg marquis de La Fontaine) is. I can't find a guideline for this. Rumiton (talk) 13:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by especially when the noun that follows, (eg marquis de La Fontaine) is. ? Do you mean by "noun" the word Fontaine, and the fact that it is preceded by the definite article la capitalised to La ? de La Fontaine happens to be a surname, that of Jean de La Fontaine, so it is normal that its *La* and *Fontaine* be capitalised. Never heard before that Jean de La Fontaine was a marquis, and certainly never that he was anything of the fountain. --Frania W. (talk) 17:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a style guide source on this, but in English-language non-fiction, the titles are capitalized, as in Marquise de Maintenon. (ref: Sex with Kings by Eleanor Herman) Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:42, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, New Brunswick, as an officially bilingual province, has a bilingual style guide that addresses this. The relevant section starts on page 30: (http://www.gnb.ca/legis/publications/style-guide2009-08-05.pdf) Modal Jig (talk) 16:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Dictionnaire de l'Académie française is the official French dictionary (in France). That is another source to investigate for your query. Airborne84 (talk) 03:41, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is no doubt that these titles are often not capitalised in (modern) French. But I once checked a French academic book about the reign of Louis XIV and found that it was extremely inconsistent in this respect.
What to do with them when they appear in English is of course a different matter. In my opinion they should be capitalised like English titles, by the same logic that makes German nouns generally start with a small letter when they appear in English text, even though in German all nouns are capitalised. Hans Adler 12:05, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Hans, especially as it seems that practice varies between French-speaking countries. The general rule in France is that a title preceded by the definite article is not capitalized, so "la marquise de Maintenon". On the other hand, see this address given recently by King Albert of the Belgians: "le Roi" and "le Premier Ministre" are capitalized where they would not have been in France or in New Brunswick. We would also have difficulties with academic titles such as Professor and Doctor: these are not capitalized either (e.g., "le docteur Livingstone", "le professeur Moriaty"), but would have to be capitalized when they are translated into English. Physchim62 (talk) 19:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It is English capitalization rules that must be followed on the English Wikipedia. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:26, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So it seems that English title rules prevail. Should the manual be edited to reflect this? Rumiton (talk) 15:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Arriving on this discussion, I believe that I am the "French speaker" Rumiton is talking about.

Physchim62, may I point out what you wrote (my underlining): "... these are not capitalized either (e.g., "le docteur Livingstone", "le professeur Moriaty"), but would have to be capitalized when they are translated into English.

Exactly, if you translate into English docteur Linvingstone & professeur Moriaty, you capitalise *d* & *p*, but the words are not docteur & professeur anymore, they are Doctor and Professor: they have been translated into English, hence the capitalisation. However, when *baron*, *comte*, duc*, *marquis*, *seigneur* are kept in French, they should not get the upper case (unless taken from a quote in French where the first letter was capitalised), and they should be in italics. You may find these words (sometimes) capitalised in French 17th & 18th centuries writings, but not anymore; there has been an evolution in the French language since the time of Louis XIV, even since the 19th century. (Example: words that now end in ant & ent, which did not have the final *t*.)

But to go back to docteur & professeur, if you write a letter to docteur Linvingstone, you are going to begin the letter "Cher Docteur" and end with "Veuillez agréer, Monsieur le Docteur..." - capital *D*; however, if you write about him, it will be: "Aujourd'hui, j'ai vu le docteur Livingstone..." - no capital *d*.

Hans, you wrote: ...by the same logic that makes German nouns generally start with a small letter when they appear in English text, even though in German all nouns are capitalised. When a German noun appears in German in a text in English, its German spelling with capitalised first letter should be respected. If it is not, it is an error which should be corrected, particularly if the error is done in an encyclopedia, as the *pedia* ending in wikipedia seems to suggest that it is.

Rumiton: Discussion should take place before editing the wiki manual of style & others - as there seems to be "rules & regulations" to be found a little bit everywhere.

--Frania W. (talk) 17:22, 9 March 2010 (UTC) [reply]

Quotation marks when linking to titles

Is there anything in the MOS that dictates that one of these is more correct than the other:

[[Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town|"Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town"]] vs. "[[Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town]]"

I prefer the former, and have been under the impression that the latter is used from laziness, not because it's dictated by the MOS or any other guideline or policy. But there is a bot now (User:FrescoBot)who's "fixing" these to use the latter format, leading me to ask whether I really am bound to use the latter. (If that's how we're supposed to do it, why can't Wikipedia be programmed to turn the outside quotes into part of the link, the way it does with plurals such as doctors? I just think it looks so sloppy to have the quotes separate from the link itself.) Propaniac (talk) 14:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Well, in my opinion the second form is: easier, shorter, less prone to mispellings and more readable. Please note there are serveral articles with quotes like "Heroes", "The Spaghetti Incident?", etc. so quotes cannot be simply "put outside" by the mediawiki software. Basilicofresco (msg) 16:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore quotation marks should be put outside the wikilink for the same reason we put outside also brakets, italics markup, tags, etc: they do not belong to the name of the target. -- Basilicofresco (msg) 17:03, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So it's just your preference, am I right? I find it really obnoxious to create a bot to go through the entire website just to enforce your personal preferences (every edit you've made on my Watchlist, and there have been a lot, has been JUST to change the quotes), but I'm not going to bother with whatever bureaucratic process I'd have to go through to get that disapproved, so I guess you win. Propaniac (talk) 02:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In dab pages is better not to pipe links. So the latter is better in this case. -- Magioladitis (talk) 00:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, you are wrong. Piping is explicitly supported by the Manual of Style for disambiguation pages for formatting, such as in Titanic (film). Propaniac (talk) 02:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The difference between Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town and "Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town" is not merely formatting. There are two extra characters in the latter. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 23:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Army1987: we are talking about "Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town" vs. "Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town". -- Basilicofresco (msg) 11:22, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Propaniac: so using a useless, harder to read, double-long piped version "it's just your preference, am I right?". ;) Please tell us the vantages of "Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town" over "Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town". Is it all about linking also the quotation marks? In my opinion linking also the quotation marks is a mistake (if they do not belong to the article name). Moreover I'm not enforcing my personal preferences: Wikipedia:Piped link#When not to use talks about "keep links as simple as possible" and "avoid making links longer than necessary". -- Basilicofresco (msg) 11:22, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Articles with no lead section

I've noticed a few articles lately that have no lead sections, i.e. they begin with a section heading. Although I've been editing Wikipedia for 6 years and always assumed that a lead section was required before a section heading, I haven't for the life of me been able to find any such requirement in any guidelines. I've checked here, Wikipedia:Layout, Wikipedia:Lead section, etc. Am I just overlooking something obvious, or is this not actually a requirement? Kaldari (talk) 20:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Admittedly the lead of WP:LEAD (which is of course part of WP:MOS) doesn't actually state "there must be a lead", but it refers to the lead rather than a lead if present, and details what the lead should do. So I don't think there can be any doubt that WP:MOS expects all articles to have a lead, which "should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article." PL290 (talk) 20:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A stub article with no section headers probably wouldn't having anything describable as a lead, but if an article is long enough for section headers, then it should have some sort of lead, even if it is just a one-sentence "X is a kind of Y" type lead. --RL0919 (talk) 20:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Also, WP:LEAD says that "the section before the table of contents and first heading ... should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article". Articles in which this section is empty do not satisfy the guideline. Eubulides (talk) 20:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can imagine there are a few articles that could do just fine without formal leads, but in general it seems to be understood that articles should have them.
So Wikipedia doesn't have an explicit ("Articles must have leads.") rule on this. Next question: Does it need one? Kaldari, is there a problem with these leadless articles? Are users creating lots of them? Is anyone reverting or fighting when other users add leads? Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added leads to articles before and never encountered an objection. Most of the articles that lack them are probably either stubs or were created without leads by editors who probably aren't reading the guidelines. If there isn't a problem with people removing leads when editors add them, having a specific rule on the matter seems like unnecessary instruction creep. --RL0919 (talk) 04:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Eubulides. As for articles with no headers at all, I take the lead to be coterminous with the article. This is not necessarily a problem if the article is shorter than about a screenful (say, than four paragraphs). ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 16:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

MOS is contradicting itself on accessibility

Please change Wikipedia:MOS#Color_coding reads in part "When conveying information via colors, choose colors that are unambiguous (such as maroon and teal) when viewed by a person with red-green color blindness (the most common type)." In several sections of this (and other Wikipedia namespace pages), this is flatly contradicted; e.g. WP:SLASH. This should be changed per this page; any thoughts? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:58, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In what sense is there a contradiction? Please bear in mind the next sentence after the one you quoted, namely "Any information conveyed via shades of red and green should also be conveyed in some other way." Eubulides (talk) 18:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think Justin is saying that the MOS uses green versus red to mean: do this, not this. He has a good point. Since we started using {{!xt}} for examples of incorrect usage, the surrounding text does not always tell the complete story without the color coding. Rather than abandon green versus red, the MOS should also indicate, in some clear and consistent way that does not depend on color, examples of correct and incorrect usage. Labels such as Correct: and Incorrect: would to the trick. That would also solve the same problem for editors who are sight-impaired and use screen readers.—Finell 19:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I still don't see the contradiction. I read WP:SLASH and all the examples there still make sense if one cannot distinguish red from green. That section doesn't need Correct: or Incorrect: labels: it's always clear from the context. Eubulides (talk) 19:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a contradiction to me. The red and green colors are attempting to convey information, even if that information is arguably superfluous. Therefore, "When conveying information via colors ..." applies to WP:SLASH – or will at least be perceived to apply, by people wondering if we practice what we preach. So what would it take to switch to maroon and teal, or to otherwise remove this contradiction? Art LaPella (talk) 03:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think that we should switch to maroon and teal in this case. Red and green have strong connotations that are relevant to the way that the MOS uses them in examples. I believe that we comply with the accessibility requirement by having clear, consistent textual labels in addition to the colors. We can accommodate the needs of the relatively small percentage of editors who do not perceive the colors without eliminating the handy color cues for the vast majority who do perceive them.—Finell 08:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That particular section looks unambiguous, even if read without regard for the colour-coding. I concur with Finell: the red/green colours are useful to most readers, and as long as comprehension of the text doesn't depend on the reader being able to perceive or distinguish the colours, it's no problem. If the MOS guideline needs fixing to reflect this philosophy, then we should do that. TheFeds 16:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC) [reply]

I looked at the color coding guideline again and you're right. Oops. Art LaPella (talk) 01:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Guideline has been marked as part of the Manual of Style

Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Guideline (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as part of the Manual of Style. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see the word "consut" at the top. At least the typo wasn't "conslut", I guess. A number of MoS guidelines are breached. Was there consensus to promote the page? Tony (talk) 12:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have complained about the US-centric focus of this page. It's explicit in the yellow box at the top. Why is it not called "WikiProject Cities/Guideline for US cities"? Why was it promoted to MoS status given this issue?

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cities/Guideline#US-centric_focus_is_a_problem. Tony (talk) 05:34, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Misplaced 'R'?

In the section Gender-neutral language under Grammar there seems to be a misplaced 'R'. Should this 'R' be here? --60.230.104.186 (talk) 14:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

if you mean the R in the WP:MOSR link, that's the Manual of Style Register. thanks for noticing/enquiring, though! Sssoul (talk) 14:53, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The "R" is explained at the top of Wikipedia:Manual of Style and at the top of Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. Maybe the inquirer missed the discussion, now archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 113#Recording consensus, and especially the subsection Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 113#Revisiting my concrete proposal. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh god. This must be the single most horrible notational convention I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Can we have the link legends expanded to something less confusing, such as "Register"?—Emil J. 16:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen worse, but the "R" is pretty bad. One cannot reasonably expect a reader to go up to the start of the MoS to see what the "R" means. It should be replaced with something like "See register." Eubulides (talk) 17:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have just provided links to the archived discussions about implementing this notation, which was proposed by Noetica in January 2010. Noetica said the following.

We provide links from each section (or subsection) of MOS to corresponding sections of MOSR, perhaps with an R (for record, or review, or register, or rationale) somewhere near the usual [edit] link, with [R] linking via a suitable anchor in MOSR when we have posted relevant material in MOSR, for the section in question.

If there is an issue about clarity, why was it not mentioned then? (Sometimes, a proponent or a supporter of an innovation might want to say "Speak now or forever hold your peace.") -- Wavelength (talk) 18:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Because we didn't send out a message to every user saying "Hey! We're having a discussion on X in case you want to weigh in." Weddings tell witnesses to "speak now," but they also have banns published ahead of time. It's better to simply accept that things are going to be a bit fluid. It's not that people weigh in after the fact so much that the time of the fact is allowed to change.
I think the R's okay, or at least no worse than other longstanding abbreviations, but it's certainly not too late to change it to REG or something, now that we've seen that someone found R too confusing. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(e/c) We are not talking about a WP:XYZ-type shortcut (which happens to be WP:MOSR for the page in question), it's a different kind of usage. I don't see any reason to abbreviate it at all.
@Wavelength: I agree with what Darkfrog24 wrote above. Furthermore, Noetica's proposal as given in the archives looks reasonable, but it is quite different from what was actually implemented: the proposal asked for [R], not bare R, and most importantly, the link was supposed to go next to the [edit] section editing link, not below the heading. Both changes dramatically alter visual perception of the link.—Emil J. 19:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


I think it's pretty bad. I propose we create a template like this the above to make it clear, rather than rely on an obscure abbreviation. PL290 (talk) 19:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Edited comment to place new template above for easy discussion. Whitehorse1
I think that's intrusive, and implies unanimity/agreement where it may not exist or even be stated within the register. –Whitehorse1 19:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 113#Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register has been UNmarked as part of the Manual of Style, the editor SMcCandlish asked "What's a Style Register?" Therefore, it is important to avoid ambiguity by using a virgule, thus: "Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register". Otherwise, I see no problem with the template.
I tried to put the "R" beside the "[edit]" section editing link, but I was not able to do so. I was hoping that someone with the necessary technical expertise would move it to that position, and at the same time explain to the rest of us [possibly in the edit summary; possibly on this talk page] how to put it there in the future for other sections.
It is not unusual for an encyclopedia to use abbreviations which are explained in the introductory matter. These might include abbreviations from general English, and others specific to the encyclopedia. When I find a puzzling notation in an encyclopedia, I remind myself to read the introductory material. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:29, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

← Can we just use {{abbrlink}} like WP:V Tooltip Wikipedia:Verifiability? –Whitehorse1 20:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can we just use regular footnotes, like the section Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Stability_of_articles already does? -- Quiddity (talk) 20:12, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, what is the aim? If it's to draw attention to the fact that there's a related entry in the register, then none of these abbreviated/referenced approaches really work, imho. PL290 (talk) 20:34, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever notation applies for linking to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register should be equally usable on any policy or guideline page. This is not just a one-off for MOS. User:LeadSongDog come howl 20:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really convinced that it is a particularly good idea to do this, but FWIW here's a way to put stuff next to the section edit links as in Noetica's proposal.—Emil J. 14:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. I have just applied that method to the subsections "Article titles", "Quotation marks", and "Gender-neutral language".
I noticed that the "R" appears in the table of contents also, but it can be useful there also. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It shouldn't appear in the table of contents at all, nor in the name of the heading. Headings should be in the form of Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Article_titles, not Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Article_titles.5BR.5D.--Father Goose (talk) 21:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Different test heading: User:Father_Goose/x1#Gender-neutral_language. This takes it out of the heading name (and ToC) but keeps it in the upper right of the section, a reasonable place for it.

I don't think "[R]" is a good way to indicate what the link is supposed to be. In the test I offer above, I did it as "[discussion]", as the nearest thing to a self-explanatory link I could think of. The word "discussion" might also help to promote actual discussion, reducing the chance that the register will be considered the final word -- consensus can always change. "[see discussion]" is also a possibility, though probably unnecessary.--Father Goose (talk) 22:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the register could benefit from a note at the top explicitly stating that listings of previous consensus are not meant as references only and that consensus on Wikipedia is never beyond change. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:54, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A historical vs. an historical

Is "an historical" an acceptable usage, or should we regard it as incorrect? The most comprehensive survey of the subject I found was this page, which finds that most American style guides consider the h in 'historical' to be a consonant and thus calls for an 'a'. That page also mentions that The Times style guide calls for 'an' before 'historic', although I note that in actual practice, Times writers use both about equally: a historic; an historic. The BBC seems to overwhelmingly favor "a historic" over "an historic": a historic; an historic. Furthermore, the Oxford English Dictionary, under its entry for historic gives "A historian. Obs." for definition B.1 and "ellipt. A historic work, picture, subject, etc." for definition B.2. So I don't think this is a case of Commonwealth vs. American English (unless you 'appen to be Cockney). Given that, may we formally state that "an historical" is an error in the MoS?--Father Goose (talk) 22:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's my understanding that "an historic" was used in the U.S. for a long time, but now it's considered old-fashioned and unnecessary. The American Heritage Dictionary, however, says that "an" is "still acceptable in formal writing." According to the same source, though, Chicago and the AP Style Book prefer "a." My take on the matter is that if it's old fashioned but not incorrect then Wikipedia shouldn't ban it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's right. You say "an" if you don't pronounce the "h"; otherwise you shouldn't. British people tend not to pronounce the "h" if the first syllable isn't strssed, so they tend to say "an (h)istorical", for example. Americans who copy this (many do) are wrong if they pronounce the "h" at the beginning of a word with an unstressed syllable, which we usually do, causing the "chalkboard fingernails" reaction. Wikipedia shouldn't care, though because it's written, not spoken, and both ways are correct. Chrisrus (talk) 20:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the dialect of English I speak natively (and quite fluently, thank you), an unaccented initial h isn't altogether unpronounced (unless perhaps one is speaking rapidly), it's just too weak to obviate the n on the article. I could imagine awkwardly inserting a glottal stop between the n-less article and the unaccented initial h, but in my dialect that's the sort of thing that one would only resort to if artificially taught, like never ending a sentence with a preposition. I think I've heard it done, but it puts me in mind of over-corrected usages like "with Bill and I".
If there really are dialects of English in which it's natively incorrect to use n with unaccented initial h (rather than being artificially taught so), then it certainly isn't one of the relatively few linguistic differences that breaks somewhat neatly along nominal American/British lines. --Pi zero (talk) 03:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, Google Scholar gives 1,820,000 hits for "a historical" and 1,100,000 for "an historical"; Google Books gives 36,500 for "a historical" and 30,500 for "an historical"; Google gives 9,750,000 for "A historical" -wikipedia -wiki (6,230,000 in the US, 612,000 in the UK) and 4,920,000 for "An historical" -wikipedia -wiki (2,200,000 in the US, 325,000 in the UK). ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 15:30, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In general I do not think Google is a good source for correct English. It is just as likely to report back common mistakes as common correct usage. ("It's" vs. "its," anyone?) However, I agree that Wikipedia should not ban "an historical" just because lots of us prefer the more modern form. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a perfect example. —David Levy 03:27, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
...I don't get it. "Deserts" with one s like in "deserve" is the correct spelling (though I admit I got knocked for a loop for a minute there). There are twice as many hits for "just desserts" as "just deserts" but these include actual dessert web sites with play-on-words names. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:00, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also it confuses Google with Google Scholar, which shows academic papers that are said to be more carefully edited. Even Google is often a good source compared to the most common alternative: "But X just isn't correct English!" "Yes it is!" "No it isn't!" "Yes it is!" ... Art LaPella (talk) 14:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, but the correctness approach has the virtue of allowing us to consult reputable style guides. We get "Chicago says so!" "But Cambridge doesn't!" more than we get "YII"/"NII," and we get "Chicago says so!" "So does Cambridge!" even more than that. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:45, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, does that mean we can settle the spaced dash debate, for instance, by simply listing style guides supporting each opinion, and debating which guides are more reputable? Art LaPella (talk) 06:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They could certainly give it a try. It doesn't work all the time, but it's certainly better than arguing about which mistake is the most popular. Darkfrog24 (talk) 11:59, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which presumes that in the Manual of Style's subculture, "mistakes" are defined by style guides, not by God and not by the Emperor's new clothes. This talk page would be a lot shorter if there were a clearcut consensus on that point. Art LaPella (talk) 17:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that Google treats "just deserts" as a misspelling and suggests "just desserts" (the actual misspelling). —David Levy 15:58, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Levy. I see your point now. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:45, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If anything, that would show that it is "a historical" which is more likely to be a typo, since it has a larger relative frequency in the web than in scholar articles and in books, and it's the latter which are more likely to reflect what is actually normal in the writers' dialects. That said, frequencies within a factor of 2 of each other on both Google Scholar and Google Books seems clear evidence that both are much more common than can be dismissed as mistakes. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 15:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't find that commonness alone can do it, but commonness isn't alone here. Safe to say we do not have sufficient grounds to ban "an historical"? Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:45, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Moving From when to use tables To This Manual Of Style?

Resolved

Does Wikipedia:When_to_use_tables#Contents belong here or should Wikipedia:When_to_use_tables#Contents stay on the page?174.3.110.108 (talk) 20:33, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Probably neither. That new "Contents" section is probably too prescriptive/creepy and is unlikely to remain in the Tables MoS, let alone be transferred here.--Father Goose (talk) 22:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here are just a few examples which led me to include the section:
  • [5]:
    • The problem with this table is it's title: "Top twenty green coffee producers — Tonnes (2007) and Bags thousands (2007)" and here is the revised version: "2007 Top twenty green coffee producers". The title is more succinct; both "Tonnes" and "Bags thousands" are already column headings, so it is just redundant to include them in the title; The time sensitive information common to both titles and columns of data are combined in the title. This helps to make the title more READABLE.
  • Here, the title is "Attacks on Oil Pipelines, 2001-2004" instead of "Attacks on Oil Pipelines". The latter is preferred because it is obvious by the information in the lower hierarchy (that is, the column headings) which years will be presented. It is a kind of generality, (good faith though it is) and redundant.
  • [6]
    • This is one reason why the clause about determiners ('do not use a, an, the')and 'do not end titles with a period' is important.
    • This is one reason why the clause 'do not end titles with a period' is important.
Also cf. [7]174.3.110.108 (talk) 22:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Guideline is no longer marked as part of the Manual of Style

Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Guideline (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as part of the Manual of Style. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Disjunctive en dashes should be unspaced

At present, the Manual of Style includes the following:

Disjunctive en dashes are unspaced, except when there is a space within either one or both of the items (the New York – Sydney flight; the New Zealand – South Africa grand final; June 3, 1888 – August 18, 1940, but June–August 1940). Exceptions are occasionally made where the item involves a spaced surname (Seifert–van Kampen theorem).

I propose that this be replaced by:

Disjunctive en dashes are unspaced (Antiqua–Fraktur dispute, the New York–Sydney flight, 1776–1788, June 3, 1888–August 18, 1940, Seifert–van Kampen theorem, Gell-Mann–Nishijima formula).

We've had extensive discussion of this over the past year or so. The relevant discussions are:

especially Archive 112's Spaces in endash. An older but relevant discussion is at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_82. I summarize the arguments for unspaced disjunctive en dashes as follows:

  • Unspaced disjunctive en dashes are preferred by many style guides, including APA, ACS, Oxford, CMOS, MHRA, Hart, EU Style Guide, and Bringhurst. Fewer style guides prefer spaced disjunctive en dashes.
  • Unspaced disjunctive en dashes are used by many publishers, including Springer-Verlag, Elsevier, Informa, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Annual Reviews, and Nature Publishing Group. While publishers are inconsistent about spacing and the use of en dashes instead of hyphens, unspaced disjunctive en dashes are acceptable everywhere and preferred in certain disciplines (such as mathematics: Seifert–van Kampen theorem, not Seifert – van Kampen theorem).
  • Spaced disjunctive en dashes can be confused with spaced interruptive en dashes: In They flew New York – Burbank – New York – Los Angeles had been the original plan, but bad weather forced them to reroute, it is unclear whether the original route was New York to Burbank to New York, or whether the original route was New York to Burbank. Put another way, it is unclear whether it is the second or the third en dash which is interruptive. This ambiguity is avoided with unspaced disjunctive en dashes.
  • Sentences containing two or more disjunctive en dashes are more beautiful if all dashes are unspaced or all dashes are spaced. However, there is consensus that if the disjunctive en dash separates single word items (such as years without months or days), then the en dash should be unspaced. Therefore the only consistent and aesthetic rule is for all disjunctive en dashes to be unspaced.
  • Tables whose items have disjunctive en dashes are more beautiful if all dashes are unspaced or all dashes are spaced. As in the previous bullet, spacing all en dashes is against consensus.

In Spaces in endash, we discussed at length the possibility of confusion. My conclusion was that there is no way to always avoid confusion: A determined editor can always construct a sentence that is impossible to parse. Bringhurst, I think, says it well:

A sentence such as The office will be closed 25 December – 3 January is a linguistic and typographic trap. When it stands all alone in a schedule or list, 25 December – 3 January will be clear, but in running prose it is better both editorially and typographically to omit the dash and insert an honest proposition: 25 December to 3 January.

Most ambiguous constructions are ambiguous whether the dashes are spaced or not. While we should discourage ambiguity, it is not a reason to prefer spaced to unspaced en dashes or vice versa except in the case I noted above. Bringhurst, in the paragraph immediately preceding the one I quoted, instructs us, Use close set en dashes or three-to-em dashes between digits to indicate a range and gives as examples 3–6 November, 4:30–5:00 pm, 25–30 mm. In this he agrees with the rule I have proposed above.

Our previous discussion was heated, so I would like to remind everyone to remain calm. I am confident that we can reach consensus this time. Ozob (talk) 05:15, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. The current requirement for spaced endashes has never had real consensus. The requirement was put in without discussion, it wasn't noticed or enforced for quite some time, and when it began to be enforced in examples like "Seifert–van Kampen theorem" it became immediately clear that it was strongly opposed. The Manual of Style should suggest a style that agrees with that of high-quality academic publishers: it should not insist on a style that disagrees with these high-quality sources. Eubulides (talk) 05:53, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This seems to me to be the most self-consistent, as well as the most consistent with the published literature. And it's also simpler to follow than what we seem to have been doing up to now, which is something more like "unspaced, except when the disjuncts contain spaces, except except when they are personal names or when it would be inconsistent with nearby disjuncts..." —David Eppstein (talk) 05:58, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. This is flogging a dead horse. For all of the reasons given in previous incarnations of this attempt to change the MoS, the status quo should remain as it has for nearly nearly three years—ever since the Manual properly treated hyphens and dashes. There are quite enough sources out there to support WP's mandating spaced en dashes when the items themselves contain one or more spaces. It is easy to remember, and is universally practised in the opening dates in our biographical articles, just to cite one example. Allowing the innermost elements to be squashed when editors just feel like doing it that way creates ambiguity and, frankly, ungainlines (3 November 1910–12 January 1913). It is not intuitive. "Disjunctive en dashes are acceptable everywhere"—that is simply untrue. And by analogy, the majority of house styles use Caps in Their Headings and Subheadings; WP's use of normal case in headings has never been questioned simply because some people use title case in hard copy and elsewhere on the Internet.

    Oh, and producing contortions to bolster a case won't go anywhere. Any editor will tell you that this is the way to write it: They flew New York – Burbank – New York; Los Angeles had been the original plan, but bad weather forced them to reroute.Tony (talk) 11:44, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. I notice that Tony correctly uses the unspaced em-dash for parenthetical phrases, but he cannot deny that the spaced en-dash is also used for this purpose in many English language texts. A reader coming along a spaced en-dash in English, without a solid knowledge of typography or the subject in question, would not know at the the first occurrence if the en-dash is disjunctive or parenthetical: such a reader would have to scan the rest of the sentence to make sense of a single word group, which is surely bad practice. We cannot enforce the unspaced em-dash for emphasized parenthetical phrases against the trends in the English language, and so we should allow the unspaced en-dash in disjunctive situations such as "Germany–South Korea relations" as opposed to "North Korea has diplomatic relations with Germany – South Korea relations are awaiting the signing of a peace treaty." Physchim62 (talk) 12:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tony often uses spaced en dashes as interrupters – having been persuaded by Noetica of their virtue – although he retains a slight preference for (unspaced) em dashes in that role. Again, a contortion has been invented to try to bolster a case. Dashes should not be used where they are at all likely to cause confusion or visual awkwardness: "North Korea has diplomatic relations with Germany; South Korea relations are awaiting the signing of a peace treaty." The "South Korea relations" bit desperately needs to be reworded, anyway. Tony (talk) 08:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If this RFC is to have any weight, this discussion needs to be advertised more widely. En dashes are used in many articles, particularly in biographies (where I almost always see a spaced en dash between the dates of birth and death), and in FAs/FLs, where compliance for the MOS is a criterion for promotion. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:44, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support; the proposed alternative is superior, but I would prefer a guideline which permitted articles to use either method consistently. Christopher Parham (talk) 13:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but I don't think ranges should be included in disjunctive dashes. For example, the EU style guide recommends unspaced disjunctive dashes (§2.19), but draws a distinction for ranges (§3.15), and I'm nearly sure I've seen the same usage before outside Wikipedia. I'd also support a proposal such as Christopher Parham's, so that it doesn't cause existing articles to stop conforming. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 15:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); March 5, 2010; 17:22 (UTC)
  • Support, in general. I've never really seen any satisfactory explaination why "Chicago–New York flight" should be punctuated any differently than, say, "Chicago–Philadelphia flight". They are equivalent constructs and should be punctuated the same way. I also don't particularly think there's a potential for confusion on date ranges, as the reader would have to ignore the context of the complete sentence, and I don't believe that constitutes a compelling reason to use spaces. That said, I can see making an exception for (non-year-only) date ranges, purely as a practical matter, due to the prevalance of the existing spacing in biographical articles. oknazevad (talk) 21:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Jimbo's "we make the internet not suck" -- in my opinion this change will cause more harm than good and will contribute to the internet "sucking". keep the status quo and stop changing all the articles in advance of this decision. User:Pedant (talk) 00:25, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Why do you believe that this change will cause more harm than good? Ozob (talk) 17:32, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Right, why? ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 20:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. I don't feel very strongly about it, and there are aspects of the current MOSDASH that I'm not crazy about, but it's consistent, it works, and I don't think this is an improvement. Visually I think there's a reasonable case to be made that "Los Angeles – Chicago" is intuitive to a reader. Unless we can argue that "Los Angeles–Chicago" is actually better, and not just equally good, I see no reason to change the status quo. The change would have a very broad impact and would absorb a lot of resources and needs to be well justified to succeed. The arguments presented don't convince me we have a problem that needs to be addressed. As a couple of people say above, sentences can be constructed to show the weaknesses in any system. If I could be convinced that a problem exists that needs correction I would change my vote, but the case seems to be one of stylistic preference, without an independently convincing reason to change our house style. Mike Christie (talk) 00:27, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I could see an exception maybe being made for individual articles that overwhelmingly use unspaced en dashes in their names, but on the whole I don't see a real good reason to change what has been a relatively stable guideline. I've made changes to articles with regard to this section of MOSDASH; several editors have inquired about this change and have usually agreed that it makes sense to space the dashes. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Could you explain why you believe that it makes sense to space the dashes? I'm not aware of any good reasons to do so. Ozob (talk) 15:54, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This proposal violates Technical Writing 101: Thou shalt not cause needless confusion for the intended readership—not even for a second. The parenthetical exception in the current guideline, (the New York – Sydney flight; the New Zealand – South Africa grand final), has long served us quite well and is sorely needed so readers’ minds don’t suffer a two-second-long *!?!*-interrupt and their eyes have to rescan to properly understand the construct. This construction is particularly confusing: 31 December 1910–11 January 1972 since it makes it exceedingly easy for many readers’ eyes to think it is a one-year range until their eyes stumble and trip over the rest of the construct. Fine typography and punctuation practices are all about allowing the eye to flow as quickly as possible without interruption. Such attention to detail is a small part of Jimbo’s “We make the Internet not suck.” Greg L (talk) 00:43, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that it's possible to create confusing constructions, but I don't think that spacing those en dashes is any less confusing: If all en dashes are spaced, then 31 December 1910 – 11 January 1972 has the same problem! Inside parentheses or in an infobox, I don't think an unspaced en dash is confusing. In prose, I think the right solution is to say from 31 December 1910 to 11 January 1972. As Bringhurst says, anything else is a trap. Ozob (talk) 18:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Sometimes spaced dashes are confusing, because they look like interruptive ones. To minimize confusion, the guideline should say "The spacing should be decided on a case-by-case basis", give some examples in which an unspaced dash is used because it'd be confusing if spaced, an example of the converse, and suggest to use prepositions when both ways would look bad. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 20:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Keep the current wording! There's no need to introduce awkward connections such as "New Jersey–London flight" (is it a new flight from Jersey to London?) and "13 December 1913–14 February 1950" (is the 1913–14 supposed to indicate a two-year period from 1913 to 1914?) Ugly stuff. Binksternet (talk) 01:14, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It only removes the ambiguity if the reader knows this convention, and I think it is rare enough that most readers won't. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 20:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: I've nothing to add to what Mike Christie and others say above, and fully endorse their reasoning. Brianboulton (talk) 01:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Permit both. There are reasonable arguments for both spaced and nonspaced disjunctive dashes; I see no reason why Wikipedia should impose either on its editors. Ucucha 01:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Such a sweeping change should require a compelling reason. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Why do you believe the reasons I provided above are uncompelling? I think the simplicity and consistency of my proposal is alone a strong recommendation. There are also the recommendations of many style guides and common publishing practice in my favor. The argument for keeping the current guideline seems very weak to me; is it simply inertia? Ozob (talk) 15:57, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. As noted the current wording was made essentially in the "dead of night" with little or no discussion. It was pretty much unnoticed at the time and didn't become an issue until unwise attempts were made to enforce it in places where it is clearly not applicable. (The prominent examples were scientific usage.) The spaced endash usage doesn't conform to majority practice outside of Wikipedia and it is absolutely unacceptable in some contexts, a problem that unspaced endashes don't have in any context. The proposed instruction is also simpler than what the MOS has currently. Arguments that the sky will fall if Wikipedia conforms to majority usage in this case are unconvincing. Quale (talk) 04:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: The sooner this RfC is snowed under, the less time it will ultimately waste. WFCforLife (talk) 06:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    What are your objections to the proposal? Ozob (talk) 16:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support: Almost all major style guides recommend unspaced en-dashes. CRGreathouse (t | c) 07:20, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose because I am very unhappy with both options. The present version is bad because it is inconsistent with traditional typography in many cases and sometimes just doesn't look right. The proposed new version is bad for the reasons given by Greg L. In my opinion the switch from one bad rule to another bad rule is the worst possible outcome. Hans Adler 08:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    What would you propose, instead? ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 20:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Good question. Unfortunately I can't think of a better solution. If we give it free altogether there will be too much inconsistency, especially in article titles. There are situations where it's confusing to space, and others where it's confusing not to space. This doesn't have much to do with questions such as whether the dash is disjunctive or signifies a range or whatever, although it's probably statistically related. Any simple rule will produce confusing results in some instances. A very clever simple rule could minimise the confusing instances, but it would take a lot of research to find such a rule. Hans Adler 15:08, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: The new version seems to be preferable in general, but I did spend an extra second or two trying to parse "June 3, 1888–August 18, 1940". On the other hand the new rule has the advantage of simplicity, whereas the existing rule has the exception clause and exceptions to the exceptions. To me it seems to be better to have a rule that is easy to understand and follow than one that tries to specify what to do in every exceptional case. For the "June 3, 1888–August 18, 1940" example, my advice would be to rewrite it as "1888–1940" and avoid the whole issue.--RDBury (talk) 08:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just realized that the date range example would be used in many biography articles so maybe rephrasing it isn't an option. Maybe adding a common sense exception for cases like this would be best.--RDBury (talk) 08:18, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is an elegant solution for avoiding this particular issue entirely. Compare:
Albert Einstein ([...] 14 March 1879–18 April 1955) [8]
Albert Einstein (* 14. März 1879 in Ulm, Deutschland; † 18. April 1955 in Princeton, USA) [9]
Hans Adler 09:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Using a cross to signify death (of a Jew, no less) is about as inelegant as it gets. Powers T 14:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*blush* Excellent point. I think I was once aware of that problem, but now I simply forgot, and Einstein was simply the first person who came to my mind for an example. So we would probably have to find a different symbol, and the fact that the German Wikipedia is still using † suggests that that's a hard problem. :( Hans Adler 17:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sure Hans didn't mean to be insensitive! The real problem is that using an asterisk for birth and a dagger (not a Christian cross) for death is well recognized by German speakers, but almost unknown among English speakers (unless those English speaker happen to speak German as well). English Wikipedia simply could not adopt the German system, however handy it might be. Physchim62 (talk) 18:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Are birthdays so important to be in the first sentence? Couldn't one just write "Albert Einstein (1879–1955)"? The full dates are shown in the infobox, as well as in the "Early life and education" and "Death" sections respectively. An exception when the day of the year is somehow significant (e.g. 17 March for St Patrick can be made, but that's going to be very rare. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 20:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, not all biographical articles have such sections, let alone an infobox. —Tamfang (talk) 00:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:RETAIN. It's nice to know that the dashes have been written about and that there are various schools which do things the same or differently. I don't think that should be the issue. The biggest issue to my mind is ensuring consistency. The guideline has remained stable for a very long time, and the 'problems' elaborated above (and I'm not sure they are all problems anyway) do not seem to me to be good enough reason to break with WP:RETAIN. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 08:55, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Allowing both formats, as some have suggested, wouldn't "break" any existing article. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 20:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alternative The proposal is illogical. The purpose of putting a dash in in the first place is to tie words together. Therefore they are closer together than they are to other words. I suggest rephrasing wherever possible to avoid having dashes at all. Peter jackson (talk) 11:47, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support a change (as the originator of this entire debate several moons ago). The revised wording at least agrees with the conventions of nearly every major style manual, including the Oxford Manual of Style, the Chicago Manual of Style, the APA Style Guide, the American Chemical Society style manual, and New Hart's Rules. Our own manual of style should not include mandates that are absolutely at odds with the best practices of major style manuals and publication houses. However, I would be eager to see one of the older proposals resurrected from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 112#Spaces in endash which at least allows for some editorial judgment in deciding what alternative to use. As Hans has noted, in many cases the style mandated by the present version just doesn't look right. If I had to formulate a hard rule about it, I would say that disjunctive en dashes are always unspaced, except in the case of parenthetical date ranges. Sławomir Biały (talk) 12:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. No compelling need to change; the current methodology makes context clear and reduces confusion greatly. Powers T 14:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. One example for rationale would be I know which of 29 December 1918–19 January 1920 vs 29 December 1918 – 19 January 1920 reads through clearer first time. Anybody else think this is becoming a bit perennial? Rambo's Revenge (talk) 17:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I hope this isn't becoming perennial. To my knowledge this is only the second time that this has been put forward, and the first time, in the thread Spaces in endash I referenced above, I don't think we got a wide enough discussion. We are finally having that now, thank goodness!
    Regarding the date, I disagree with you. But you knew that. Ozob (talk) 16:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly support. The "Seifert–van Kampen theorem" example is especially compelling, as well as the need for a zillion more redirects at Seifert - van Kampen theorem and Seifert – van Kampen theorem, Seifert-van Kampen theorem, Seifert–van Kampen theorem, and Seifert – van Kampen theorem. There is an article at Seifert–van Kampen theorem, and the redirect called for in our existing rules (I think it is found at one of the naming conventions pages) at Seifert-van Kampen theorem already exists. For that matter, there should not be redlinks at Seifert-Van Kampen theorem and Seifert–Van Kampen theorem nor the ones with "Theorem" such as Seifert–van Kampen Theorem (I'm not going to list all the permutations here). Furthermore, the extra spaces are ugly and unnecessary in all cases. The dates examples in existing articles discussed above are in general not from the rule under discussion here, but from a more specific instruction at WP:DATE. The problem that there should be a non-breaking space at the left side of a spaced en dash (something already prescribed at the Manual of Style page, at least twice), but there in general will not be (WP:DATE specified that "En dashes are preceded by a non-breaking space per WP:DASH" but that is rarely found in those introductory dates in biographies now), is another complication we don't need. Gene Nygaard (talk) 17:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I had too many redlinks originally, but the Seifert - van Kampen theorem one is especially important. People will see that the hyphen/dash/whatever is spaced, but they won't necessarily know which of all the possibilities it is, and the one they have on their keyboard is "-"; don't expect anybody to know how to enter any other specific dash into the "Go" box, for example. If there hadn't been page moves in the Seifert-Van Kampen theorem article, most of those redirects would not exist now. For most similar articles, it is likely there will be a lot more redlinks. Gene Nygaard (talk) 17:29, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose in regard dates, generally support in other cases (extending spaced surnames to spaced proper names). One bizarre example involved the relationship between concepts A–B and C–D; a sensible approach would be to call it the "A-B – C–D relationship". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. When and why did they replace the old York–Sydney flight with a new one? Strad (talk) 20:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Both spaced and unspaced dashes can cause ambiguity and confusion on occasion. I think writers should be encouraged to use the word to or to recast the phrase when this is an issue. I think 29 December 1918 to 19 January 1920 is clearer than either 29 December 1918–19 January 1920 or 29 December 1918 – 19 January 1920. Michael Glass (talk) 21:44, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Neither solution is perfect, but I believe the current guidance is better, especially for ranges and routes. In any case, I prefer unspaced em-dashes for interruption. If more people used them, a great part of the problem would disappear. Waltham, The Duke of 22:58, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Thank you, Ozob, for providing links to some previous discussions about this issue. I wish to encourage all participants in this discussion to spend time in reviewing those discussions before commenting in this one.
From the section Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_112#Spaces in endash (subsection Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 112#Too hasty, started by User:HWV258), I repeat the following information e-mailed by User:Noetica to User:Tony1, who "edited [it] for wikiformatting" and who posted it at 06:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC).[reply]
[Reformatted by Ozob (talk) 03:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)][reply]
These sources may be of some value:
A) Butcher's Copy-editing (4th edition 2006). This classic work is one of the most respected British guides. See the relevant page online (pp. 151–53). My commentary follows, drawing on salient points:
  1. Spaced en dashes (as opposed to spaced or unspaced em dashes) are now "most often used" for so-called parenthetical dashes.
  2. En dashes are also quite properly used to mean "and" or "to", in which case they are normally unspaced.
  3. On p. 152: "However, spaced en rules [en dashes] may be used between groups of numbers and words to avoid implying a closer relationship between the words or numbers next to the en rule than between each of these and the rest of its group." Three quite decisive examples follow, along with a caution that in no way detracts from the basic principle. A search for "en rule" in this work at Googlebooks confirms its robustness. See for example p. 131 and p. 246, where both the principle and the obvious caution are reiterated.
B) The Cambridge guide to English usage (Pam Peters, 2004). On p. 140: "A spaced en dash/rule is used when the words or numbers to be separated have internal spaces.
1 July 1991 – 2 June 1992"
This is essentially the same provisions as in source A (along with additional ones of interest), but more prescriptive. And there is NO restriction to dates; and there is NO provision for any alternative practice.
C) Texas State University's editorial style guide link. This is one of several academic sources online that prefer the general style given in sources above, though perhaps implicitly: "The event runs October 10–15. 6 a.m. – 9 a.m. (include a space before and after the hyphen or en dash in ranges of times)." This is one of several American sources in accord with the other sources cited.
D) The Cambridge guide to Australian English usage (Pam Peters, 2nd edition 2007). See pp. 155–56: Same wording as in source B.
E) Style manual: for authors, editors and printers (Wiley, 6th edition 2006). Probably the major Australian style guide; widely followed, especially by government publications: essentially the same ruling as above. For its prominence in Australia see Style_manual#Australia.
F) The Australian editing handbook (Elizabeth Flann and Beryl Hill, 2004). Same ruling as in source E and others.
There are others that I can't chase right now!
Finally, a nice example of practice from "established publishers". Spot the four ways of doing date ranges, in one table.}}
From the same section Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_112#Spaces in endash (subsection Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 112#Butcher's advice, started by User:A. di M.), I quote the following boldface text from a post by Noetica at 12:02, 21 December 2009 (UTC).[reply]
[Original boldface removed by Ozob (talk) 03:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)][reply]
Wikipedia is unique. It confronts weighty problems of pan-anglophone, collaborative, dynamic online publishing that never intrude on the serene world of academic journals. The web is not paper, and very few Wikipedia contributors are professional editors; very many are not even experienced writers. No appeal to New Hart's, Chicago, Butcher's, or Elsevier practice is final. We have to fashion guidelines ourselves, for an entirely new situation. We must respect precedents, yes; but many precedents are vague, rashly conceived, or scarcely applicable in new contexts. We at MOS must above all respect the special needs of Wikipedia editors, if we are ultimately to serve the readership. That means no hasty or half-considered changes, which yield nothing but chaos and dismay.
Please see also the surrounding context.
I am repeating information in response to what appears to be a repeated proposal. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not a repeated proposal, and the previous duplication and highlighting of a large chunk of one side of the already-cited discussion is an abuse of this discussion thread. There are far more authoritative style guides who favor unspaced endashes (APA, ACS, Oxford, CMOS, MHRA, Hart, EU Style Guide, and Bringhurst) than who favor spaced ones (Australian, mostly). The boldfaced claim that "Wikipedia is unique" is pure hot air: this minor layout issue is completely independent of whether material is printed or on the web. Eubulides (talk) 01:27, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding "...is completely independent of whether material is printed or on the web": remember that printed pages can't be resized. The fact that the width of the WP reader's screen can't be anticipated must be considered when constructing these guidelines.  HWV258.  06:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think that spacing of en dashes depends at all on whether we are in print or in electrons. This aspect of good design is independent of medium. If you do not think so, please explain why. Myself, I think it is as justifiable as the sometimes-made claim that electronic publications should always use hyphens; that is, I think it is ridiculous, and I know from experience that everyone who frequents the MoS agrees. But somehow, it's acceptable to vaguely invoke the differences between the web and print if it can be insinuated that these differences support one's side!
Also, the colored quote box was obnoxious enough the first time. I am about to remove it and the needless boldface. Ozob (talk) 03:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Obnoxious because it disagrees with your line, possibly? Tony (talk) 04:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Obnoxious because it distracts. Notice that discussion here has nearly stopped since it appeared. I am hoping that the discussion revives now that the quote box is gone. Ozob (talk) 11:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I'd count sources B) and D) as two; anyway, the context shown is insufficient to show whether what it says is supposed to apply only to ranges or also to pairs of nouns modifying another noun. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 13:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Eubulides, I repeated those two blocks of information as a convenience to readers. Even if I had simply referred to specific places in previous subdiscussions, there is a possibility that some people would have had difficulty in locating the passages in such a long, sprawling discussion.
Google found 40 pages with the exact wording "Wikipedia is unique". One of those pages is http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation/Feb_2010_Letter_to_the_Board_v1/en. Another one is http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/22/wikipedia.internet. You can follow the links that Google found, for you to see some ways in which Wikipedia is said to be unique.
Please do not refer to Noetica's words as "pure hot air". Please have more respect for experts. As one Wikipedian has said, "we can ill afford to lose such a resource."
-- Wavelength (talk) 21:00, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was completely inappropriate to copy that long slug of anti-change argument here. I could have responded in kind by copying an even long slug of pro-change argument, but that would have been just as bad. People who want to read the old arguments can do so, and you can refer them to the arguments, but it's wrong to blast a long copy of the stuff here. I'm afraid that even experts sometimes give opinions that are pure hot air: all that comment was saying, basically, is that Noetica likes spaces around en dashes and doesn't care that most style guides disagree. Eubulides (talk) 21:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Disjunctive en dashes should be unspaced: Another proposal

Apparently, most people objecting object to 29 December 1918–19 January 1920, so, what about this (loosely based on Butcher's):

Spacing
Disjunctive en dashes are normally unspaced; but when there is a space within one or both of the items being separated, they may be spaced or unspaced, depending on which format is clearer: unspaced dashes can be unclear because they can seem to imply a relationship only between the words immediately adjacent to it, and spaced dashes can be unclear because they can confused with en dashes used in lieu of em dashes (see below). (For example, if the spaces in 500– 20 thousand are removed, it can appear to mean "from 500,000 down to 20,000", and if spaces are added in They flew New York–Burbank – New York–Los Angeles had been the original plan, but bad weather forced them to reroute, the sentence becomes ambiguous.) If neither format is satisfactory, use a preposition instead. Unspaced dashes are normally preferred with proper names (Seifert–van Kampen theorem), and spaced ones with ranges (29 December 1918– 19 January 1920). In article titles, whichever format is chosen, create a redirect from the corresponding title with the other format.

(I'd welcome any suggestions for better examples.)

  • Support as proposer. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 13:37, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose again. What, after everyone has visited, you put up another proposal? How long will it go on for? I'm afraid you've missed the bus on this one: people have clearly indicated above that there is no consensus for change. It is not appropriate to advertise an RfC and then—after many many visitors have had their say—to change the text or to add other options. Waiting to see whether one option gains consensus, then moving the goal posts when you find it doesn't gain support will not lead to a legitimate consensus for change. Otherwise, you could keep adding new options every week, and people would tire of it all, and you could claim that this small hard-core of supporters then generates a consensus.

    Now, if you want to remove any doubt, it would be better to say simply that en dashes as interrupters should not be used in the vicinity of disjunctive en dashes: it's that simple; but that is what any good editor would do instinctively, anyway. I've already pointed out above that those who are pushing for this change have invented contortions involving proximate en dashes in these two different roles. Each time, I have responded by replacing the interrupter with a semicolon; that is the superior choice. Tony (talk) 14:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    I can't see what's so shocking with making a proposal which tries to address the criticism to the previous one; I have not even edited the existing one. And IMO writing "Chicago–Boston" and "Chicago–Los Angeles" in the same sentence is confusing even if there's no interruptive dash around, as the reader will wonder what the difference between the two is and I'd bet that less than 5% of them will be able to come up with the answer. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 15:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Tony, I can see that you are happy with the current text and would therefore like to close down further debate. But there is no consensus for the present text. Look above: There are currently thirteen variations on "support" and nineteen variations on "oppose". That is, about 40% of those who have expressed an opinion support the proposal, and about 60% do not, and furthermore some of those are weakly held opinions. That is a supermajority, not consensus. If you do not want to participate in forming a new consensus, then please leave the rest of us alone so that we can do so uninterrupted. Ozob (talk) 22:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with A. di M. and Ozob. A new proposal is a valid and potentially productive step, not an end run. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:11, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. We can avoid ambiguity by writing 500–20,000 or 500,000 down to 20,000, as the case may be. The flight example appears to have been artificially contrived. No dashes are needed in They flew from New York to Burbank; flying from New York to Los Angeles had been the original plan, but bad weather forced them to reroute, and there is no ambiguity. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:16, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that a spaced en dash is used by professonal mathematicians. See the following variations of the name of the theorem.
"Seifert – Van Kampen theorem" at http://maths.dur.ac.uk/~dma0vk/OldTeaching/TopologyIII/TopologyIII-Spring08/notes32.pdf (Durham University)
"Seifert — Van Kampen theorem" at Lee J.M. — Introduction to Topological Manifolds :: Электронная библиотека попечительского совета мехмата МГУ (Lomonosov Moscow State University)
"Seifert and Van Kampen theorem" at Knill: The Seifert and Van Kampen theorem via regular covering spaces. (Pacific Journal of Mathematics)
"Seifert–Van Kampen theorem" at http://www.mathi.uni-heidelberg.de/~stix/preprints/STIXSvK.Juli2005.pdf (University of Heidelberg)
"Seifert van Kampen Theorem" at C3.1a Topology and Groups | Mathematical Institute - University of Oxford (University of Oxford)
"Seifert/Van Kampen theorem" at http://math.mit.edu/~gracelyo/18904/projects.pdf (Massachusetts Institute of Technology)
"Seifert–van Kampen Theorem" at http://www.pdmi.ras.ru/~olegviro/topoman/e-ch9.pdf (St.Petersburg Department of V.A.Steklov Institute of Mathematics of the Russian Academy of Sciences)
"Seifert Van Kampen Theorem" at http://www.renyi.hu/~dezso/budsem/04spring/top1_04s.html (Hungarian Academy of Sciences)
"Seifert and Van Kampen Theorem" at http://elib.tu-darmstadt.de/tocs/186717830.pdf (Darmstadt University of Technology)
-- Wavelength (talk) 16:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is saying that the spaced version is never used outside Wikipedia. All we're saying is that it's standard practice among high-quality published sources to use unspaced endash. The two examples you give of spaced endash are low quality (one guy's old lecture notes; and a web index in English prepared by a Russian publisher for a Russian book!). I can easily find similarly low quality sources for other incorrect spellings, such as "Seifert van-Kampen theorem"[10]. But low-quality sources like these prove nothing. Let's see what high-quality publishers do: publishers like Springer (Akhmedov & Park 2008, doi:10.1007/s00222-008-0118-x; Pawałowski 2008, doi:10.1007/s00208-008-0215-6) and Oxford (Hackstein 2008, doi:10.1093/imrn/rnn050; Akhmedov et al. 2008, doi:10.1112/jtopol/jtn004) are doing. And sure enough, they use unspaced endash. Wikipedia should be inspired by the best professional English-language publications in the field, not by unrefereed amateurs and weird indexes by foreign-language publishers. Eubulides (talk) 20:42, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suddenly there is pontificating on which book or publisher is of high quality, and which is of low. Plenty of so-called high-quality publications persist with title case in their titles and subtitles: that doesn't mean WP should suddenly adopt this practice. Tony (talk) 23:39, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some high-quality publishers use sentence case in titles, some title case; but none of them use spaced endash for this example. And nobody would seriously argue that Oxford and Springer are lower-quality academic publishers than unreviewed course notes or a hacked-up web-only index to a Russian-published Russian book. Eubulides (talk) 05:26, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is a weak feature of the current rule that it is out of sync with what seems to be a reasonably consistent standard for this theorem; and perhaps there are other examples from mathematics that could be cited. However, the original proposal would make too global a change. I might be persuaded that it would be a good idea to add exceptions for specific terms with established usage, or even for entire fields such as mathematics, if customary usage can be established to be different from our current rule. That would require a different discussion than this, and more evidence for multiple examples (not just this one theorem). Mike Christie (talk) 12:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Defer. This is a reasonable compromise proposal. There's nothing wrong with proposing a compromise. There is obviously no consensus for the current MoS, and there never has been a real consensus for it: a compromise like this is obviously appropriate for cases where consensus hasn't been reached. However, I agree that the previous RfC should be left to pass its course before starting on a compromise. Eubulides (talk) 21:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Contra Tony, the existing "consensus" seems not to be a consensus (it attracted far less discussion when it was inserted than these proposals had) and, on top of that, is clearly broken ("Seifert – van Kampen" is just incorrect, it is not formatted that way by any professional mathematician, and the rule needs weird exceptions to allow the standard formatting "Seifert–van Kampen"). But I am coming to feel that replacing Tony's beloved but broken rule by a different rule is not so much of an improvement. I am in very strong opposition to a situation that leaves the status quo ante as a rule, because it is broken. But this repeated proposal-rejection cycle doesn't seem to be making any progress towards making it less broken. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This proposal is too ambiguous to be an effective guideline: Ambiguity leads to arguments; arguments lead to edit wars; edit wars lead to the Dark Side. The instructions of both the present text and my proposal above are unmistakable, and I think that virtue makes either of them more desirable (despite my disagreement with the present text's instructions). Ozob (talk) 22:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I wonder how comes that we manage to have no guideline about whether to use someone or somebody and the sky hasn't fallen. (No, that's not a purely rhetorical question. Why are some people care so much to some points of style but not to others?) ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 15:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I think this proposal accurately explains a problem with the current verbiage, and balances two fundamentally incompatible usage conventions, but I'm not totally sold on the exact phrasing. Also, it's probably worth discussing whether (on a philosophical level) it's better to put up with some ugliness in furtherance of a simple guideline (as the MOS apparently does at present), or instead, to complicate the guideline in pursuit of better typography and layout. TheFeds 16:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Simply deleting the Spacing bullet would result in an even simpler guideline and would balance the two conventions, but for some reason I thought that would not be very popular... ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 17:11, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Disjunctive en dashes should be unspaced: Distinguishing between different uses

Looking at the votes, it seems to me that most of the opposition is concerned about confusing constructions. I believe there may be a way to satisfy their concerns. Up until now, we have treated all disjunctive en dashes equally. My proposed solution is to distinguish between the different uses of disjunctive en dashes. In particular, I propose something like the following:

En dashes standing for to or through in ranges are unspaced if the two items contain no spaces (1919–1920) and are spaced if either of the two items contains a space (5 January 1919 – 21 January 1919, 100 – 110 kW June 2008 – Present). Disjunctive en dashes in other contexts are unspaced (New Zealand–South Africa grand final, Seifert–van Kampen theorem). In a table or list, if one item is spaced, then the others must be as well.

This alone does not eliminate all confusion. I believe that the only way to do that is to explicitly prohibit it. This prohibition is not about spacing, but since it's important to this debate I think I should propose specific language:

En dashes must not be used when they are ambiguous. For example, in New York–London flights began in 1968, it is unclear whether the flights are from New York to London or are from York to London. Instead, use New flights from York to London began in 1968 or Flights from New York to London began in 1968.

What would everyone think of this? Ozob (talk) 23:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC) [reply]

  • It's complicated and confusing. The current system is simple: one rule, which is that if there is one space or more within the elements, space the dash as well (given the more recently inserted optional exception for the mathematics lobby in "Seiffert–van Kampen"). The kW example is wrong: the elements are 100 and 110; kW applies to both, just as the month applies to both in 13–16 January. Tony (talk) 02:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    The current system is more confusing, because it makes a strange optional exception for spaced surnames. Nowhere else is there a distinction between spaced surnames and anything else. But the section on en dashes already distinguishes three different uses of disjunctive en dashes. We all agree that these are different uses: None of us would argue that Newark – New York is a range or that 1 October – 14 October means 1 October versus 14 October. Since the distinction between ranges and non-ranges is already necessary, I don't see why it's so much more effort to space them differently.
    You are right about the kW example. At the moment I can't think of a replacement that shows off the case I want: One of the items has no spaces, the other does, and the dash represents a range. In such a case I believe that the dash should be spaced. If I think of an example I'll put it in. Ozob (talk) 03:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    2 million – infinity? June 2008 – present? Iron Age – Renaissance? Art LaPella (talk) 03:40, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    But again, let's be careful about using an en dash in any context. What is wrong with "to" in these examples? In a table, sure, it's better, or where there's a succession of time ranges in the running prose. But if just an isolated expample, I'd be inclined not to use punctuation. Tony (talk) 04:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Me too. Also, June 2008 – Present is exactly the kind of example I was looking for. I've added it to my proposal above. Ozob (talk) 11:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ambiguity is present no matter what system is used. For example, the sentence "New Mexico–South America flights began in 1968." is ambiguous regardless of whether that en dash is spaced or unspaced. So I suggest using this route in the example instead: that way the example is independent of whether one prefers spaces around such en dashes. Also, I suggest changing the kW example to something like "10 W – 200 kW". I also agree with Tony's suggestion to mention that the en dashes are more appropriate for tables and the like. Eubulides (talk) 06:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You suggested "New Mexico–South America flights". What, the new flights from Mexico to South America? This is an ideal example of why jamming innermost elements should not be done. Tony (talk)
It appears that the previous comment missed the point of the example. That example is ambiguous regardless of whether the dash is spaced. "New Mexico – South America flights" is just as ambiguous as "New Mexico–South America flights". Both examples can be plausibly misinterpreted as talking about new flights from Mexico to South America. Eubulides (talk) 06:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is exactly the same situation as New York–London flights began in 1968 in my example above; writing New York – London doesn't make it any better. I propose above that we prohibit this kind of bad writing. Ozob (talk) 11:57, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, the example is ambiguous even without the en dash. New Mexico to South America flights began in 1968 suffers from exactly the same double meaning. Ozob (talk) 12:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
June 2008 – Present should have a lowercase p; except for that, it seems OK to me. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 12:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment, "present" is proscribed in date ranges--see WP:OTHERDATE. PL290 (talk) 13:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dead horse. Tony (talk) 13:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it's a dead horse, why is it buried in MoS, and who's flogging it? I'd be quite happy to see it removed. While it remains, it has a bearing on the way this thread develops. PL290 (talk) 13:30, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dead horses don't tell tales—I've deleted it. PL290 (talk) 14:16, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Spaced disjunctive en dashes should be restricted to date ranges

Following on from the discussion above (and with a new header to clarify discussion), I wonder if there is any case where we should use spaced disjunctive en dashes apart from the case of birth and death dates or similar simple date ranges. To take the example of a range of values for a physical quantity above, I would say that 10 W – 200 kW should be replaced by from 10 W to 200 kW or the range 10 W to 200 kW, depending on the context. The rational for restricting the use of spaced en dashes is that they have another common use in English – to introduce parenthetical phrases – and it is not our business to say that they should be replaced by parentheses (or, sometimes, semicolons) when this usage is widespread. We are not the defenders of the purity of English punctuation, especially when such supposed purity comes at the detriment of readability. Physchim62 (talk) 13:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there should be any difference between dates and anything else; from 10 W to 200 kW is typically better in prose but 10 W – 200 kW may be useful in lists, tables, parentheses and the like, and the same applies to from 1 January to 31 July v 1 January – 31 July. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 14:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The difference is that we have large numbers of spaced disjunctive en dashes (within parentheses) in the lead sections of biographies which are not problematic. Pretty much all the other occurrences of spaced disjunctive en dashes are problematic to some extent, depending on your point of view on the issue, although I agree that tabular material is another reasonable exception. Physchim62 (talk) 14:58, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to second-guess an article's editors on whether an en dash is appropriate or not. Maybe 10 W – 100 kW is a good idea in context; we shouldn't sit on our thrones here and command them otherwise. We might want to recommend otherwise, but that's difficult to do because people in a typographical dispute often treat the MoS as absolute; they wield our words as weapons, whether or not we want that. So I think we really ought to have a rule that allows for en dashes in almost any situation.
I'm a pretty big fan of the rule I proposed above (distinguishing ranges from other disjunctive en dashes). I think I'd like to see it in the MoS. Ozob (talk) 16:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Tables has been marked as part of the Manual of Style

Wikipedia:Tables (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as part of the Manual of Style. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See section below for explanation.--Father Goose (talk) 07:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:When to use tables is no longer marked as part of the Manual of Style

Wikipedia:When to use tables (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as part of the Manual of Style. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically what happened is "Wikipedia:When to use tables" was renamed "Wikipedia:Tables" to generalize it. I also changed it from an MoS guideline to a general style guideline, as it covers material along the same lines as Wikipedia:Lists, another general style guideline.--Father Goose (talk) 07:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Revisions by Noetica in January 2010

I have recently started User:Wavelength/About Wikipedia/Manual of Style/Revisions by Noetica in January 2010. I envisaged this sub-sub-subpage in January 2010, but I have only now got around to starting it. As we move forward in time, these revisions continue to recede (in a relative sense) and to become less easily accessible. I request that others not change my sub-sub-subpage, but I invite all editors to copy it to their own subpages, where they might change it to suit their preferences. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalization and internal parenthesis

Feedback appreciated I nominated Hats Off to (Roy) Harper to be moved to Hats Off To (Roy) Harper due to my understanding of the following:

WP:CAPS: "...unless they begin or end a title or subtitle"
Wikipedia:MUSTARD#Capitalization "Titles that include parentheses should be capitalized as though both the part inside and outside the parentheses are separate titles (e.g., "(Don't Fear) The Reaper")"

This implied to me that since "to" is before the parenthesis within the title, it should be capitalized, even though it is usually not capitalized in proper English names. I had several other Wikipedians respond saying that I was misreading the style(s) and upon further reflection, I think they might be right. Does anyone else have two cents to add to these rare occasions? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum A similar conversation is going on here where I feel I am on more sure footing about (The Same Thing Happens with) The Birds and the Bees → (The Same Thing Happens With) The Birds and the Bees, (Do the) Mashed Potatoes → (Do The) Mashed Potatoes, and (The System of) Dr. Tarr and Professor Fether → (The System Of) Dr. Tarr and Professor Fether. Please let me know if there is something I am missing there as well, or if I am correct in asserting that these pages should be moved. Thanks. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"both the part inside and outside" is ungrammatical. I assume it means "both the part inside and the part outside". In the example you cite, the part outside is "Hats Off to Harper", so lc is correct.
In the 2nd case, what you say fits the wording of the quote. I'm inclined to think the quote is wrong. My inclination is to say instead that the part outside the brckets should be capitalized as it would be if the bracketed material weren't there, while the material inside should be capitalized as if the brackets weren't there. Peter jackson (talk) 12:13, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Concur with Jackson. Alone, the proper title case is "Hats Off to Harper," so with the parentheses, it would be "Hats Off to (Roy) Harper." Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also agree, and some of these titles could be used as examples in the documentation. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 14:45, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Jackson and Darkfrog24. ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 15:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have modified the text in WP:MUSTARD to reflect what should be obvious. =) Powers T 20:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Jackson and Darkfrog. Tony (talk) 03:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly (but irrelevant to this discussion), on the back cover of the album it's misspelled as HATS OF TO (ROY) HARPER with one F, but it's spelled correctly both on the CD itself and on the booklet. The other typo on that track list, "Bron-Y-Aur Stomp", is consistently spelled thus everywhere (but the same song is called "Bron-Yr-Aur Stomp" on 2003 albums). ― A._di_M. (formerly Army1987) 21:50, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New MUSTARD wording

  • Comment Do you realize this does not clarify the original meaning, but directly contradicts it? Earlier, the example that was given was "(Don't Fear) The Reaper", but with the present wording, the proper title would be "(Don't Fear) the Reaper". My points are two-fold: 1.) I do not think this is the appropriate standard to have (i.e. I prefer it the way it was before) and 2.) this new standard is not a clarification of the old rule but a new one that is contrary to it in many cases. If the consensus is to use this wording, that's fine and well I suppose, but I think I should point out how it is not a more precise version of the same guideline, but an entirely new one that results in different titles (affecting scores and possibly hundreds of articles.) —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:40, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unless the woring has changed since you posted the above comment, you seem to have misunderstood it. It says the part outside brackets should be capitalized as if the part inside weren't there. In the case you mention, the part outside is "The Reaper", capitalized so. Peter jackson (talk) 11:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant Once again, I have misunderstood. That's embarrassing. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict between italics and possessive

Hello. I have encountered an anomaly when I try to write the possessive of a word in italics. I want to write "qigong's popularity" with the word "qigong" in italics. When I write that, however: qigong's, it makes the rest of the sentence bold. Does anyone know how to fix this? --TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 01:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's quite strange, because it turned out properly above, whereas when I did it on the Zhang Baosheng page it created a problem. Please ignore this note. --TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 01:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was wrong again. Here is the full text. I believe the problem arises when the sentence starts with a statement in bold:

'Zhang Baosheng was among the most famous of the qigong Grandmasters during the period of qigongs immense popularity in the People's Republic of China

I may have to rewrite that sentence. If there is a workaround, please advise. --TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 01:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One tactic that seems to do the job is to put a zero-width joiner html-entity (‍) between the end-italics markup and the apostrophe.
Zhang Baosheng was among the most famous of the qigong Grandmasters during the period of qigong‍'s immense popularity in the People's Republic of China
--Pi zero (talk) 02:50, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There was just a thread about this at WT:MOSTEXT#Help with italics and apostrophes. I think the best solution is to use the apostrophe template {{'}}. Ozob (talk) 03:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WT:MOSTEXT certainly helps here. However, I just tried this particular problem text out in my sand box and then tried various alternatives to see if I could identify any specific poblem and a specific solution for that problem:

  • Problem text: Zhang Baosheng' was among the most famous of the qigong Grandmasters during the period of qigongs immense popularity in the People's Republic of China
  • From: '''Zhang Baosheng''' was among the most famous of the ''qigong'' Grandmasters during the period of ''qigong'''s immense popularity in the People's Republic of China

Step-by-step analysis:

  • Opening: Zhang Baosheng was among...
    ('''Zhang Baosheng''' was among...)
  • Extend: Zhang Baosheng was among the most famous of the qigong Grandmasters...
    ('''Zhang Baosheng''' was among the most famous of the ''qigong'' Grandmasters...)
  • Further extend: Zhang Baosheng' was among the most famous of the qigong Grandmasters during the period of qigongs immense...
    ('''Zhang Baosheng''' was among the most famous of the ''qigong'' Grandmasters during the period of ''qigong'''s immense...)
  • Conclusion: ''qigong'''s is causing a problem
  • Possibe solutions: refactor the sentence to avoid the above problem (ie, either avoid italics where possessives are used or avoid possessives where italics are used); rephrase the sentence to avoid the problem; use {{'}} for all grammatical usages of the apostrophe; use <i>/</i> for certain italics
    • Refactor - just knock out the italics, if possible/approptiate
    • Rephrase - Zhang Baosheng was among the most famous of the qigong Grandmasters during the period of that practice's immense popularity in the People's Republic of China
      ('''Zhang Baosheng''' was among the most famous of the ''qigong'' Grandmasters during the period of that practice's immense popularity in the People's Republic of China)
    • {{'}} - Zhang Baosheng was among the most famous of the qigong Grandmasters during the period of qigong's immense popularity in the People's Republic of China
      ('''Zhang Baosheng''' was among the most famous of the ''qigong'' Grandmasters during the period of ''qigong{{'}}''s immense popularity in the People's Republic of China)
    • <i>/</i> - Zhang Baosheng was among the most famous of the qigong Grandmasters during the period of qigong's immense popularity in the People's Republic of China
      ('''Zhang Baosheng''' was among the most famous of the ''qigong'' Grandmasters during the period of <i>qigong'</i>s immense popularity in the People's Republic of China)

Neither of the last two is satisfactory, IMO, as a) few editors will have heard of {{'}} and b) mixing the markup is not a good idea. The rephrase is the best solution I can suggest, therefore. Any better suggestions? --Jubilee♫clipman 18:05, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've used <nowiki>'</nowiki> to isolate the apostrophe when this has come up in the past, but {{'}} sounds neater. The issue only arises rarely, so many editors won't have heard of any solution. {{'}} may be little known, but let's make it better known by recommending it, unless someone has a better way. PL290 (talk) 18:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, {{'}} needs to be far better known. BTW, I have just noticed further that the actual then-displayed text in the article was formatted differently again from my above example, which is a little odd: see here. This rarely encountered issue needs to be resolved somehow if subtly different versions produce significantly different results... --Jubilee♫clipman 18:46, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's the bullet that produces that other distortion. Seems consistent (try it in preview)--we can ignore that aspect, I think. PL290 (talk)
Ah! I wondered if it was the fact that the old article version has a ref after it that also uses the apostrophe character (as single quote marks). The bullet seems more likely. Still, if the addition of a bullet also changes the display, then we have yet another issue to deal with, no? It is the subtleties that concern me here: even experienced editors can get tripped up by these! --Jubilee♫clipman 19:34, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My impression is that no, it's not another issue. Just that when a bullet (or anything else, actually) occurs before the opening bold ' ' ', the existing problem manifests itself with a slightly different appearance. So, as long as the apostrophe is isolated in one of the ways we've discussed, there is no other problem. PL290 (talk) 21:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well the fact that prepending the wikimarkup with * / # / ; / : / etc causes the displayed text to be formatted differently is a strange fact that needs explaining. However, this is obviously a universal thing not only affecting bolding etc but other things too, it seems. As such, you are right: it is a side issue and not relevent to our present problem --Jubilee♫clipman 23:23, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the following to the Apostrophe section: For a template which can be used to avoid confict with the use of apostrophes in Wiki markup see Template:'. Alternatives to the use of the template include using <nowiki>'</nowiki> or the code &#39;

I hope that is acceptable and useful? Thanks --Jubilee♫clipman 20:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Amazing. You are just the right people to be dealing with the Manual of Style. I thought I was anal until I saw this! The problem has been corrected with the wonderful {{'}}; thanks again. (PS: why not recommend using {{'}} in the Wiki markup document, alongside the lengthy < nowiki > code?--TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 04:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Template:New Zealand English&Template:Scottish English&Template:Hiberno-English&Template:Pakistani English

FYI,

has been nomiated for deletion. 70.29.210.242 (talk) 05:39, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"grammatical form"

What is "grammatical form"?174.3.110.108 (talk) 08:16, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the context? Maurreen (talk) 20:57, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Shortcut

When I edit an article, if I use the shortcut wp:retain, it highlights in red and says the article doesn't exist. If there a wp problem or am I doing something wrong? --MartinezMD (talk) 15:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalization matters for wikilinks. WP:RETAIN vs. wp:retain. Shortcuts are pretty much all in all-caps. --Cybercobra (talk) 15:16, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you.--MartinezMD (talk) 15:21, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bots making improper page moves claiming MoS in support

I don't appreciate bots running around moving Pseudo-Anosov map to Pseudo–Anosov map here with the claim that it is based on the MoS, with an edit summary "Bot: Moving page per WP:ENDASH". Unless somebody here wants to explain the contribution of Dr. Pseudo to this concept?

The worst part is, this improper move has stood for over nine months. How many others like it have there been? Gene Nygaard (talk) 20:51, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean others closely resembling it, I checked the bot's contributions, and it was apparently an isolated error among hundreds of proper moves. If you mean other errors of all kinds from all sources, well, I'm glad you caught that one, and I moved it back. Art LaPella (talk) 22:13, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to hear it was an isolated problem. It wasn't a bot that made this move, but could you fix Anti–Fengtian War, too? Gene Nygaard (talk) 22:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Done —David Eppstein (talk) 23:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Saint–Venant's theorem is another one.
I suspect that it is an apprenticeship for aspiring stub-sorters, that they first need to put in some time slapping useless templates onto redirect pages, giving them a history so that we peons cannot fix improper moves such as these. Gene Nygaard (talk) 01:05, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also done. It does seem that the software should be able to recognize moves like that as innocuous and let non-admins do them. Oh well. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well and good. Looks like Dr Pseudo has gone, and with a name like that, it's probably a good thing. En dashes wrongly standing in for hyphens are worse than the other way around, to my eyes. Tony (talk) 05:11, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are literally millions of these sorts of redirects (hyphen to endash title), the last time that I looked. Doing those sorts of moves was really in vogue, for some strange reason, a few years ago. I'd be completely onboard if someone decided to try to reverse all of these, so that the names use regular hyphens. Dealing with endashes in article titles is a pain in the ass, generally.
    — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 19:24, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Does that mean you want to move articles like Michelson–Morley experiment, for example, back to the redirect Michelson-Morley experiment? If so, I hope that means changing WP:ENDASH to match. The only thing worse than obscure written rules is obscure unwritten rules. Art LaPella (talk) 21:05, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I wouldn't mind if the actual URLs have hyphens instead of en-dashes, but I don't want the displayed page title to show a hyphen that should properly be an en-dash. So if {{DISPLAYTITLE}} would be allowed to work in this case, I'd be happy. But I don't think it does currently work, due to the "provided the selected title normalises to the same title" language in mw:Manual:$wgAllowDisplayTitle. Does anyone have any idea what would need to be done to allow title normalization to transform en-dashes to hyphens? Because I think that's what would need to happen to do things that way. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • humm... I should make it clear that I don't really advocate doing anything in particular here. I realize now that my statement above tends to indicate the exact opposite, but really I seem to have simply overstated my case. The just of it is that I feel solidarity with Gene (and David?) in that these hyphen to en dash page titles are just annoying all around. It kind of bugs me that people started moving them all to their more technically correct title simply because it's nearly impossible to create new articles that use en dashes (and the vast majority of newer editors creating pages won't even know to try). The reason that I think this is an issue is because it makes it nearly impossible for Wikipedia to maintain any consistency, since almost any new article using a hyphen will be "wrong" automatically. Anyway, there are more important things to worry about (such as.. *ahem* the thread immediately below, perhaps?)
          — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:03, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • People are always free to make the page with a hyphen initially; someone else can take care of moving it. In the math project at least, the move will usually happen within a day once the new page is categorized. So everything does stay consistent, apart from very newly created articles. That seems reasonable enough to me: new users can do whatever seems natural, and some more experienced user will help bring it into consistency with the rest of the project. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:47, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images and third level headings

I'm certain that there used to be advice/recommendations somewhere about the interaction between images and third level or greater headings. It was good advice, and without it there are now people actively looking to make changes to do the "wrong thing". So, what ever happened to that advice?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 19:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Register

MoS section titles are being updated with {{MOSR-link}} to link to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register. This breaks links into the MoS, as the [R] is part of the section title and the brackets have to be encoded. Templates should not be used in section titles; see {{shortcut}} for a better example. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:19, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. People have been starting to go nuts with the wikitext in section titles, ever since the devs fixed them last year. It's one thing to use wikitext in section titles on talk pages, it's quite another to do so on the actual page. We can ease up on the "rule", but it's generally a bad idea to simply allow anyone to add whatever wikitext they want to section titles.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 17:37, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, for those who may be interested, Ed's post above seems to have been prompted by this, from the Help desk.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 17:42, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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