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February 17

aroused by cartoon characters

Is there a term or label or diagnosis for people who are sexually aroused by cartoon characters? I don't mean the kinds of cartoons that are supposed to be arousing. Rather, characters like Wilma Flintstone or Tinker Bell. 99.250.103.117 (talk) 03:40, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

False premise. It is difficult to see how either Wilma Flintstone or Tinker Bell could be described as being designed to be anything but arousing, given their scanty attire, overt sexuality etc... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:49, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The premise is nowhere near false. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 03:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

See Rule 34. --Jayron32 04:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't know if there's a name for the fetish, but see hentai. --140.180.4.56 (talk) 04:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Two words: Jessica Rabbit :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:40, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with AndyTheGrump that Wilma Flintstone and Tinker Bell#Disney version are odd examples. The latter even says: "Some critics have complained that Disney's version of Tinker Bell is too sexually suggestive." PrimeHunter (talk) 04:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Erm, Bugs, I don't think anyone could suggest that Jessica Rabbit wasn't intended to be arousing. I think the real problem is that there is a sliding scale here, on the Hentai - Jessica - Wilma - Elmer Fudd - Simpson's-Cat-Lady vector, where one would go from perfectly acceptable 'normal arousal' to downright 'you what?', but with no clear dividing line. The largest sexual organ we have is the brain, and we are capable of (ab)using it in the strangest of contexts... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Jessica's not actually "bad", she's just drawn that way. :) And it's fair to say that Tinkerbell is hot, and Wilma's nice too. :) Ah, but the real test... Is Wikipe-tan hot? Or is she just cute? Or both? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Wilma's alright, but I used to love Betty Rubble when I was a kid :D And not in a childish way :D 92.80.18.189 (talk) 19:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Eroge. I seriously had never, ever come across that word until I was involved in an AfD for one. Really. Never. --Shirt58 (talk) 07:28, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

defining affinity group or work group as related to the spokes council model

in the spokes council model of organization can an affinity group or working group be comprised of just one person? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.246.211.25 (talk) 07:30, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

It depends on what the general opinion (the consensus, if you will) of the group is. Generally I would think the answer would be "no", but it depends on what they decide. Abeg92contribs 18:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Agriculture Innovation Technology Application

Hello, I would like to ask what are the ways to apply a certain agricultural technology? For example I would like to use a technology in South America (pesticides) to be applied in my city's agricultural sector. I am a student in Xiamen, China and my teacher asked me to write a short essay for this. Can anyone give any idea on how agriculture innovations are applied to other countries or agriculture sector? what are the steps for our local farmers to take in applying? thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warrenzy (talk • contribs) 08:07, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, because this is an obvious homework question, nobody can answer you directly, but we can point you towards some sources that might help you. You might take a look at these articles: Agriculture, Pesticides, Natural Resources Conservation Service... just a few off the top of my head. I hope your teacher's asking a more specific question because as you've described it the topic is wide open. Shadowjams (talk) 08:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The main points of my essay are explaining the steps of agricultural innovation application. we were also asked to submit our essay to the local farmers and for those of them that wants to apply overseas agricultural technology would have some base idea on how to do so. I've looked at the links provided but still no clear explanation on the process of application of certain agriculture technology. Is there any other in-depth explanation about the process of application on agriculture technology? thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warrenzy (talk • contribs) 10:19, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

In Western countries, including South America, a farm is a business. If the farmer thinks an item of technology will make his farm more profitable, he invests in it (if he can afford it), or obtains a loan from a bank, or clubs together with other farmers to form a cooperative. If her can't finance it, he doesn't use it. In the UK, farmers are able to see the latest products at agricultural shows or in the trade press. There are also associations organised by the farmers themselves that give advice on the latest methods, like The Soil Association or The Royal Association of British Dairy Farmers. Alansplodge (talk) 14:11, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Question about legal ethics (conflict of interest)

This is a question about legal ethics, but it's not a request for legal advice. I understand that the legal profession has rules about conflict of interest. Suppose an in-house lawyer of company A leaves the company and later joins company B. If the two companies are later involved in litigation, how does the lawyer previous employment at company A affect his ability to participate in the matter? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.98.94 (talk) 08:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Refer to the ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct. Your question is one of some academic interest actually. The specifics vary by state, and while most states use the MRPC, many have modified them, and some have their own version. The general concept you're talking about is called a "Chinese wall", where the new attorney at the firm is withheld from all information related to the case. That may or not be effective depending on the circumstances. Generally speaking conflicts that affect one lawyer are imputed to every other lawyer at the firm (there are some specific exceptions). However there are some caveats, and also some specific to law clerks, and government lawyers. No matter the direct conflict rules, the lawyer can never be in a situation where confidential information they learned in a previous representation can be used adversely against that client, unless the client consents. There are also "non-consentable" situations too.

It has been a while since I reviewed the rules in detail, so I'm not confident enough to give you a great answer, but your question reads a bit like a law exam final. You might want to take a look at the MRPC because they're straighforward enough and may provide you some insight into what you're asking about. Shadowjams (talk) 09:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

613 commandments list only goes to 605

The excellent article on the 613 commandments has a list derived from Maimonides that only goes to number 605. Were some commandments from the list combined without notice or is the list still under construction? it would be possible (but very tedious!) to compare the list in the article with other published lists, including on the Internet, but I hope the editors of the article or someone could provide a short answer.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.64.27.34 (talk) 14:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing it out (and for the compliment to this Project). The list was pruned by a vandal some months ago. Perhaps we should tell him or her that Wikipedia is a fruit tree? Thanks to you, I've now fixed the problem. --Dweller (talk) 14:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The Catcher in the Rye

In The Catcher in the Rye I believe I remember that Holden once thinks about sombody who went crazy because of too much reading. Who was that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.74.50.52 (talk) 14:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Its been a long time since I read Catcher in the Rye, but I did some searching on Google, and this page indicates that the notion that too much reading can cause insanity was apparently a theory held by Franz Joseph Gall, a neuroanatomist and phrenologist who apparently influenced Horace Mann, the American pedagogical reformer. Given how schooling plays a central part in CITR, I wouldn't be surprised if such notions didn't influence it, or slip in there in some ways. Just an idea; no idea if it relates or not. --Jayron32 15:12, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Who is David Stevens?

Who is David Stevens who is quoted saying "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it"? [1][2] --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 15:00, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, but it only appears in the last couple of years, and not in any reliable sources. It's very similar to "...truth is true even if everyone denies it, and a lie is a lie even if everyone affirms it", which appears have first been used by Hank Hanegraaff. Warofdreams talk 15:35, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

GDP (Output) gap & Okun's Law

In Wikipedia's description of GDP (Output) gap, Y* = actual output, Y = potential output. Yet in the description of Okun's Law (immediately following), Y = actual output, Y* = potential output; opposite designations. Is this an error or are these arbitrary designations? I'm confused! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.22.118 (talk) 16:12, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, such designations are always arbitrary. Looked at Okun's Law first & didn't see what you meant, but you're right Output gap, while correct, was confusing, so I fixed it to make the notation internally consistent. Y is now actual, Y* potential throughout the article. Thanks.

The idea is that employment & production are positively correlated, in a roughly stable manner. More people working, will do more work, make more goods, provide more services, and vice versa, if GDP grows, employment will likely grow, unemployment decrease. The negative signs appear here & there because it is usually formulated in terms of UNemployment, not employment.John Z (talk) 20:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Trying to understand coin collecting

I've recently found a coin collection in the Liberian-centered archive where I work, and my supervisor has asked me to attempt to catalogue them. While I'm not a coin collector, I am an active stamp collector, and this flavors the way I'm thinking of this coin collection. Can someone suggest a coin catalogue that's comparable to the Scott catalogues of stamps? Knowing about the collector-oriented nature of the Liberian postal service, I'm under no illusion that these coins are going to be valuable, and I'm somewhat nervous that they'll not be covered by major catalogues simply because so many Liberian coins (like the seen-on-TV "legal tender" $2 coins featuring US presidents) are produced for the US collector market, just like the stamps.

I've searched online and found nothing; searching here at Wikipedia, the only potentially relevant catalogue that I could find is the Standard Catalog of World Coins, which according to WorldCat isn't owned by any libraries near me. Could you suggest any other catalogues that would be (1) standard reference works for US coin collectors, and (2) likely to cover Liberia? I'd particularly appreciate it if you could suggest a catalogue that's owned by my university library; you can go to the online catalogue and search it after clicking the "Guest access" button. Nyttend (talk) 22:20, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The Standard Catalog is really it, I am afraid (it is often called "Krause's". That being said, I have a copy of it around the place. If you can post an image, I can tell you if it is in the catalog, and what I can about it. My copy is several years old, I should add. If it is not in there, there is a volume called Unusual World Coins. I do not own that.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I have an old edition (only paid a dollar or two for it) which claims to include all world coins from 1801 down to about 1995. During the second half of the 1970s, the coinage seemed to be devoted to promoting some kind of personality cult of William R. Tolbert, Jr.. Beginning in the late 1980s, there began to be a lot of commemoratives obviously aimed at the international collector (Michael Schumacher, Nolan Ryan, Captains Kirk and Picard, etc.). -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:00, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Nyttend, if you tell us what they commemorate, and the denominations and year, that is plenty of information. Just make a list and email me or AnonMoos. Incidentally, if it is totally unidentifiable (I doubt it will be), both Coin World and World Coin News run columns where they identify odd items. I suspect they get lots of queries. If I had to guess, I'd bet these are Franklin Mint coins from the 70s.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

For US coins, it's the "Red Book", whose actual title is A Guide Book of United States Coins. Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:46, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

When I posted the question, I'd not yet looked at individual coins; I'd simply found a group of coins and ensured that they were from Liberia. After posting this request for help, I actually inventoried them, listing for each one the date and denomination. To my surprise, many pre-date the Tubman administration (including two from 1847, the year of independence); most of the remainder were produced before Doe's 1980 coup, and the few exceptions are largely ordinary-looking coins — I couldn't find a single one that appears to appeal to foreign collectors. Even more to my surprise, I've learned that my local public library owns a copy of Krause's (can't imagine why it's not in WorldCat), so I'll consult that first; if it turns out not to include the coins in question, I'll come back and ask either of you who offered to help. Thanks! Nyttend (talk) 18:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

February 18

Defraud Innkeeper?

I saw an ex-girlfriend in the local arrest section of the newspaper, and she was apparently arrested at Denny's for "defraud innkeeper". What does that mean? Doesn't that mean she defrauded a hotel in some way? 198.228.232.49 (talk) 01:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

According to this [3], "defrauding an inkeeper" also applies to restaurants. That particular law is for Georgia, but other states and countries probably have similar laws. RudolfRed (talk) 02:34, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The dine and dash seems the most likely offense. (If I were to do that, I'd pick a much nicer restaurant.) :-) StuRat (talk) 02:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

How do you know which Denny's is meant? There could be thousands restaurants called like that in the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.66.12 (talk) 12:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Denny's a chain, so yes, there are thousands of restaurants called that (well, our article says "over 1,500" worldwide, so not quite thousands), but they are very similar. --Tango (talk) 13:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Other jurisdictions call this offence Theft of services. —D. Monack ^talk 01:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Secretariat General of Commonwealth

When it comes to selecting Secretariat General of Commonwealth of Nations, is there an election or the Queen appoints the person to the position? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.150.254 (talk) 03:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Commonwealth Secretary-General#Election. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Fetish name

Is there any name for the fetish for bloodless torture? Such a person might enjoy watching someone get tortured on the rack, but doesn't want to see someone get disemboweled with a chainsaw. Is there any film genre specifically relating to this fetish? --140.180.6.154 (talk) 06:18, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Sadism is enjoying inflicting pain (or watching it), but not necessarily death. While this isn't exactly the same as "bloodless", it's probably as close as you will find. StuRat (talk) 16:34, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

However, the works of the marquis himself are not bloodless! 140.180.6.154 -- I could coin a word from Latin or Greek roots, but it wouldn't be a standard accepted term. Why not just say "bloodless torture sadism"? -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

university of kent

anyone here know anything about this university? I'm currently studying the second year of my course and was hoping to transfer there to take the last year (for a variety of reasons, initially I hoped to transfer last year but left it too late). However, I have heard that some universities don't accept new entrants just for the final year. I emailed them to ask about their policies here, but a week later I still have no reply. Anyone know more about this? or is this rule the same across the country? 148.197.81.179 (talk) 13:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

You really do need to speak to the university. Even if they do accept transfers, it's going to depend on the details of the course you are currently taking and the course you want to transfer to (you would need to show that you have met all the prerequisites for the new course). We're not going to be much help there. If you don't receive a reply soon, make sure you emailed the right person - it's probably better to email someone in the department you want to join rather than a central admissions person since it will probably be a departmental policy. The university website should help you find the right person in the department. --Tango (talk) 13:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

You should pick up the telephone and call a human if you are at all serious about this. Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I took a look at their website and found this FAQ. It says you can enter the 2nd year of a course by applying through UCAS, but doesn't mention entering after the 2nd year. --Tango (talk) 15:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I know UK universities don't have half terms, but the children of their staff do, and where I live half term was last week. So it's possible that the member of staff who deals with such matters was on holiday last week. If you haven't heard by Monday afternoon by email, I'd telephone as suggested above. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

From my (admittedly limited and outdated) experience of Universities, it's possible that they don't have an existing policy on this because no-one has asked to do it before now: I can think of three administrational innovations that had to be made at my own University for first cases, two of them involving myself. In case this is so, you might be better off preparing the ground by persuasively making the case to someone in the department you want to join, as Tango suggests, and having them advocate your transfer, rather than presenting it to a general administrator who might find it easier to say "no" to a novel proposal from an outsider. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.63 (talk) 11:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd be very surprised if they don't have a policy on this. Working at a university, I know we get queries about third year entry fairly often. Many universities have a policy that they won't accept the transfer of more than one year's worth of credits, but this isn't universal, so it's well worth asking. Warofdreams talk 12:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

English maternal DNA

I'm curious about the maternal DNA of English people. Did the Anglos and Saxons bring their own women with them or did they marry with the English women already inhabiting England when they settled there? What exact ethnic group did these indigenous women come from? I do know they were pre-Roman and pre-Celtic. I need this info as I'm currently involved in a debate with a friend regarding this. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I think you'll find it's a much-debated, contentious and unresolved question. Does Genetic history of the British Isles help? Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Bryan Sykes has studied this. As our article states: "There is a difference between the genetic histories of men and women in Britain and Ireland. The matrilineages show a mixture of original Mesolithic inhabitants and later Neolithic arrivals from Iberia, whereas the patrilineages are much more strongly correlated with Iberia. This suggests (though Sykes does not emphasize this point) replacement of much of the original male population by new arrivals with a more powerful social organization.". In other words, the invading men brought some women with them, but also took the time to knock up native women. StuRat (talk) 16:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It's actually the difference between the genetic history of mitochondrial DNA (transmitted from mother to child) and the genetic history of Y-chromosome DNA (transmitted from father to son). Such differences can sometimes provide interesting details relevant to the history of population migrations, but they don't really provide broad comprehensive information on the "genetic histories of men vs. women"... AnonMoos (talk) 20:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

What's the difference ? StuRat (talk) 20:09, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

For any one individual, mitochondrial DNA only provides evidence about his or her mother, mother's mother, mother's mother's mother, etc.; while Y-chromosome DNA only provides information about a man's father, his father's father, his father's father's father, etc. So if a man traces his ancestry back eight-generations, then he can have up to 256 distinct great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents, but mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome DNA can only provide information about two of the 256, or less than 1%. As you go further back, the pure matrilineal line and pure patrilineal line become an ever smaller fraction of the ancestor slots in each generation, but there's more and more likelihood that some of the same individuals show up multiple times as ancestors (due to intermarriage). It can be complicated, but the result is that while the results of mitochondrial and Y-chromosome analysis provide interesting information, this information is fragmentary in some ways... AnonMoos (talk) 20:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I see your point, although mutations in the Y-chromosome and mitochondria provide some additional info. StuRat (talk) 20:57, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Even if it's true that there was a major influx of males from Iberia, this is still a pre-Roman Conquest event isn't it? The Angles and Saxons came from northern Europe, not Spain. I found these two articles by Stephen Oppenheimer (Britishy geneticist and "a researcher and popular-science writer on human prehistory"): Myths of British ancestry and Myths of British ancestry revisited. Alansplodge (talk) 23:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Also take a look at Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup, especially Haplogroup R (Y-DNA), which is the majority haplogroup type in the Isles. It also has prominence in Iberia as Alansplodge says. Most of these historic migrations are on the order of 10s of thousands of years, so modern history like the Roman Conquest doesn't seem to be as big of an influence as you might think. But I could be wrong about that. Shadowjams (talk) 06:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I take it you mean most of the major migrations to the British Isles, as there were major migrations since then, such as in the last few hundred years to the Americas. StuRat (talk) 06:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Right, migrations to. North America largely resembles what you'd expect within ethnic groups. I'm reciting what our article, and a lot of other mainstream sources say about it. I might guess that they ask people about their ethnic ancestry, and base it on that. But even still, the British Isles are predominately white and so it seems reasonable to assume the distribution of haplotypes hasn't changed that much. (haplogroup has nothing to do with race either, as there are some Africans with haplotype R as well... but it does suggest that most of the early migration patterns have remained surprisingly consistent). Shadowjams (talk) 07:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The Y chromosome and mitochondrial haplogroup DNA evidence has more to do with prehistoric human migration patterns than with any phenotype expression. Indeed there are people that share haplogroups with wildly different ethnicities (and correspondingly wildly different appearances, genetic disease rates, and other phenotypical expressions). In fact these haplogroup analysis work largely because these DNA sections aren't thought to code for any meaningful differences. So it's just random mutations that are passed on without bias. Shadowjams (talk) 06:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

See also Cheddar Man. Alansplodge (talk) 12:37, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Economic impact of leap year

This year, 2012, is a leap year. As many people are paid a fixed amount monthly it would seem that a large number of extra man-hours are going to be worked "for free" this month. Could this have a detectable economic impact (i.e. a marginal increase in economic productivity)? LukeSurl ^{t c} 16:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

A similar situation happens in other years - if the year starts on a Friday or Saturday, there will be one few working day (assuming a Monday-Friday working week) than if it starts on any other day (due to there being 1 day more than 52 weeks in the year). I don't think that's going to make much difference to anything, though. Productivity is generally equal to consumption (with a few, usually short-term, exceptions) and consumption isn't going to be changed much by this kind of thing (I guess things like food and utilities will get used for one extra day in a leap year, but for most goods and services there won't be any noticeable change). --Tango (talk) 17:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The "noise" of economic data is likely far larger than the 1/366th difference added to the year by a leap year. I can't think of any economic data that pretends to be as precise as one part in 366, so any changes that occur due to a leap year would be washed out in the data set by random fluctuation. --Jayron32 18:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't stop people from talking about the economic impact of an extra bank holiday for a royal wedding, or of lots of people not being able to get to work for one day because of snow. It's rather silly, but it fills column inches. --Tango (talk) 18:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The OP asks if it would lead to "a marginal increase in economic productivity"? Obviously not, but those who are incompetent at Mathematics may think they see one. HiLo48 (talk) 20:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

A worker who's paid by the hour should benefit from the extra day. A worker who's paid a fixed salary is effectively being paid "by the year", so they don't get anything extra for that extra day. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm paid by the month; it's the same amount regardless of whether the month has 28, 29, 30, or 31 days. Since February is a day longer this year, I get slightly less money per day this February than I did a year ago, but it's still more than I get per day every other month of the year, so I'm not complaining. Pais (talk) 22:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Er, just to clarify, workers don't actually benefit from the extra day in the sense that they still have the same lifetime income, it just gets divided into different sections. (Okay, so there's an effect that there's another 24 hours in their working life, and 24 hours less in their retired life, so their income would be slightly different. But you catch my drift.) - Jarry1250 ^{[Deliberation needed]} 22:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Bugs, that is a false analysis. This "extra day" furphy needs to be put to rest straight away. The sequence of the days of the week will not be disturbed by this so-called "extra day". There is no "extra day". The 24-hour period that we're going to call "29 February 2012" was always going to be there, regardless of what name we choose to call it. Compared to a standard year, there's an extra date, that's all.

For those whose pay is expressed as an annual salary, what they earn per working day will be a minute fraction smaller this year compared with a standard year, but that applies to every working day this year, not just to 29 February. The number of working days per year varies every year anyway.

And for those who are paid on a monthly basis, what they earn per working day this February might be slightly smaller this month compared to other Februaries - but again, that applies to every working day this month, not just to 29 February (if it's a working day). -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

52 weeks and 1 day vs. 52 weeks and 2 days. That's an extra day. And even someone who's paid monthly is still being paid "by the year" if they're on salary. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't confuse how a person's emolument is formally expressed in their employment contract (e.g. $25 per hour cf. $50,000 per annum), with how often they receive payment (e.g. weekly cf. fortnightly cf. monthly). -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

A salaried employee who's "exempt" from overtime gets a fixed amount per year, unless he happens to get a raise at some point. An hourly employee gets paid for how many hours he works during the year, possibly including some overtime, etc. The number of man-hours in a year is typically given as 2080 (40 X 52) for convenience, but it's really 2088 in a normal year and 2096 in a leap year. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The man should join a union, and demand some paid holidays... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The paid holidays are included in the 2080/2088/2096 hours. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

February 19

Passbook and money market accounts

According to [4], banks can change the interest rate on passbook savings accounts in the United States any time they want, within a 5% reason. Is the same true for money market accounts? Albacore (talk) 03:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

See the terms and conditions of a particular bank's account. (Yes, that long-winded small print nobody actually reads). Truth in Savings Act gives some guidance regarding disclosure rules. I'd say banks can pay pretty much whatever rate they like, as long as they're honest about what they pay. If you don't like the rate you're being paid, I'd say you should simply switch banks. Bankrate is a useful comparison site, for example. 58.111.178.170 (talk) 20:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Where does the US House of Representatives get the funding for BLAG?

The House of Representatives, through the Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group, hires outside counsel to represent them in legal battles. Where does the funding come from? Donations from individual representatives? 50/50 from each party's battle chest? Or (and I seriously hope this is not the case) siphoning off their general expense account? 99.245.35.136 (talk) 04:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The BLAG works primarily with the U.S. House Office of General Counsel, see OGC Home Page. According to the rules of the House [5] Rule 2, section 8, the Speaker sets the pay of the employees of the OGC. Being U.S. Government employees, OGC is likely paid out of the same bucket of cash that the rest of the Government is paid from. The existance of the OGC is authorized here in the U.S. Code, Title 2, Section 130f. I have no idea how this applies if the BLAG decides to go outside of the OGC and hire outside counsel; where that cash comes from. Primarily, it seems, the BLAG deals with issues related to legal interests of the House, rather than legal interests of its members, which is a bit of a distinction. It seems that the hiring of outside counsel is very rare, most of what I am seeing indicates the normal course of events is to use the OGC. --Jayron32 04:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I was just reading our article on DOMA and it said that the house is spending $1.5 million to hire an outside counsel to defend DOMA. Did the House not use the OGC for these cases because they know it's unrelated to the functions of the House? Or is it some other reason? In any case it sounded like it was not the Speaker who was setting the price tag but the contracted law firm itself. 99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and to correct myself, this outside counsel is technically representing BLAG instead of the House itself. In contrast, the OGC, while controlled by the BLAG, represents the House.99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (comments prior to EC) Its a bit messy, and not that simple, because the House claims that it is about the functions of the House, specifically over the conflict between executive privilege and legislative privilege, AFAIK, the House's main claim is that President Obama is not authorized to ignore laws passed by Congress, and the outside counsel's main purpose is argue that. This is neither here-nor-there over whether or not the DOMA is a just piece of legislation, just on the issue of what legal rights and obligations the executive branch has with regards to laws that are already on the books, but which it disagrees with philosophically. I'm not exactly sure what the justification is for using outside counsel in stead of the OGC; nor can I find any information on who is footing the bill in this case. (response to second set of comments) Is it representing the BLAG as a body (which is just the House Leadership), or is it representing the persons who make up the BLAG? --Jayron32 05:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Our article on BLAG says "...attorneys representing the BLAG filed a brief...", but the source link is dead unfortunately. This HuffingtonPost article [6] also use a similar language: "...attorneys representing the House's Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group...". I couldn't find the actual brief so far but I'll keep on trying. If they are not representing the House then I really don't think the House (or more accurately the taxpayers) ought to foot the bill. 99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion of "think ought to" aren't really what the reference desk is about. Again, I have looked and can't find anything one way or another about who is footing the bill. If you are concerned about ought to, then perhaps you should contact your congressperson directly, and ask their office about the matter. Your complaint is likely to go farther there than here. --Jayron32 05:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

My apologies for the sidetracking. I just thought retaining outside counsel was a common thing for the House and thus the answer would be common knowledge. In any case I found the brief [big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/DOMAfiling.pdf] and it's indeed the BLAG being represented, not the House.99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

One possibility would be to contact the Huffington Post and ask them; it looks like they have journalists working on the issue, and they may have additional information, or your question may probe them to investigate the issue themselves, if they don't already know. --Jayron32 05:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Call whatever office in the House of Representatives deals with the public and ask them. If you know what law firm, send them a civil email (i.e., don't start with "What right do you have to ...".)--Wehwalt (talk) 15:01, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if the House of Representatives is familiar with the UK slang usage of the word blag - to talk one's way out of something, or to obtain by deception/dishonest persuasion. As in "I got caught, but I blagged my way out of it", or "I blagged a free drink by telling them I'm a friend of the owner". Seems rather apposite. Equisetum (talk | contributions) 19:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

RP pronunciation of stairs

The OED has an /s/ at the end of backstairs. Is this correct, is it a rhyme for scarce in RP? If so, is stairs also a rhyme, or does it have /z/ as in GA? — kwami (talk) 13:43, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

My accent is broadly RP, and I don't voice the final consonant in any of those words. I do voice it in 'scares', though (which would be a homophone of 'scarce' if not for the different voicing). This question would probably get a better response on the Language, by the way. --Tango (talk) 13:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Your word is good enough, considering the OED already says so! — kwami (talk) 14:21, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

There is an issue with RP being quite varied. I would say that I speak RP, but I don't speak anything like the Queen, who also definitely speaks RP (the difference being that she learnt to speak RP in elocution lessons in 20's and 30's, while I learnt to speak it organically in the 80's and 90's). I can't say for sure how the Queen pronounces 'stairs'. The same is true of General American, of course. --Tango (talk) 14:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It rhymes with pears fairs and tears (as in tears paper). Kittybrewster ☎ 14:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Tango: do you mean “scares” as a noun or a verb? – b_jonas 16:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I pronounce them the same. --Tango (talk) 00:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

how do I address a Church Elder?

Elder Robert Smith of New Hope Apostolic Church Missouri (Pentecostal Assemblies of the world) ? Kittybrewster ☎ 14:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Unless you have been introduced to him with a specific form of address, I would just call him "Mr. Smith". There are some forms of address that are sufficiently well known that it could be considered an insult not to use them, but how on Earth are you supposed to know how the New Hope Apostolic Church chooses to address its elders? (Unless you are a member of that church, in which case you will have better people to ask than us.) --Tango (talk) 14:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

On the rare occasions I have met well-known people, and conversed with them, I generally toss in a "sir" now and then and leave it at that.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

How frustrating. Is there a free lookup for tel nos in missouri? Gloristeen Arbuthnot please. Kittybrewster ☎ 17:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It probably differs depending on whether or not you are a member of the same denomination as him. If you are not, you can't go wrong with "Mr. Smith.", in the U.S. it is universally acceptable in situations where the correct form of address has not already been established. If he prefers a different form, he won't be offended, but will offer a polite alternative. --Jayron32 01:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. When I received your advices I telephoned the number I had for him (I am not a theist) and found it no longer works. Nor can I get a number for his church. So I am stuck. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I would say that any lay elder of a church without a working phone would have to be awfully pretentious to expect to be called anything but "Mister" if male.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

He may be retired from the New Hope Apostolic Church Missouri (Pentecostal Assemblies of the world). But I would love to hear from anyone who knows how to get a St Louis tel no. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

See 4-1-1 the US directory enquiries number. There is a different version 1-areacode-555 1212 which may be of more use if calling from outside the US, but you would need to know the area code for St. Louis, Missouri (314 or 636 according to the article). Astronaut (talk) 13:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I got it from zabasearch.com. it is a 314 number. but the telecom machine thinks I am dialling 8 zeros which unsurprisingly is an invalid number. Kittybrewster ☎ 14:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

A full list of countries with death penalty for apostasy

I'm looking for a full list of countries with death penalty for apostasy. I've already read Apostasy#Countries, but I'm not sure if it's the full list. Thanks, Oh, well (talk) 14:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

One complication is going to be that many nations which lack an official death penalty for apostasy will have a tribal justice system that does. These tribes may keep it secret when they execute someone for it. StuRat (talk) 18:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, so what about a list of states in which execution for apostasy is statutory? Thanks, Oh, well (talk) 14:11, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Just my opinion here, but I think that the Iraqi and Afghanistan civilian death toll would be considerably lower if these were Christian countries. So, in my personal ethos I would count each of those deaths (only the difference in civilian death toll, mind you) as an execution for apostasy. 84.2.147.177 (talk) 15:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That depends on the time period. Due to the relative weakness of the Church today, it is unable to execute people for apostasy, but, back when it was at it's peak power, it could, and did. See Spanish Inquisition. StuRat (talk) 21:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

is it usual or possible to get a ba in music from a conservatory

or does a ba only come from universities?

In the UK only a university can award a bachelor's degree. However, some conservatoires in the UK are departments of a University so can award degrees, usually through that university. I'm thinking of, for example, Birmingham City University which took over Birmingham School of Music (Conservatoire) in the 1980s. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The Royal Conservatoire of Scotland awards its own bachelor's degrees (from 1993; before then the degrees were awarded by the University of Glasgow, but it was never a department of the university). Graduate degrees are issued by the University of St Andrews (I don't know why not Glasgow or Strathclyde - I suspect politics). -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for this respponse. I'm also interested in other countries! (esp. european ones). I know this is hrder to track down... --80.99.254.208 (talk) 20:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Entrance Hall

Another dumb blonde question: How is "entrance hall" related to Colleges?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 15:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you have some context for us ? Perhaps it means a hall (large room) where entrance exams are given ? StuRat (talk) 18:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

An obvious answer perhaps but many building have what is termed an entrance hall; I assume that most colleges will also have one. Gurumaister (talk) 19:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I heard it in conversation, however don't remember the exact words. A hall (large room) where entrance exams are given sounds like what I remember in the conversation. From what you gentlemen are saying, it also then fits foyer.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The only circumstances in which I can possibly imagine interpreting "entrance hall" as something to do with an entrance exam would be if I had already had it explained that in the particular institution under discussion had such a naming convention (but I have never heard of such an institution). I would say that you safe in assuming that an entrance hall is a hall (I think Americans would say "lobby") by which one might enter a building. --ColinFine (talk) 00:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

And if I was asked what an "entrance hall" was, in general, that's what I would say. However, I was trying to find an answer that specifically related to colleges. StuRat (talk) 00:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, since commencement speeches are given after students have finished their studies, maybe an entrance hall is the place from which they exit the college and go out into the world. I only mean that half-jokingly. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:27, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sinn Féin's nationalism

Is Sinn Féin's nationalism civic, ethnic or somewhere in between? --Broadside Perceptor (talk) 18:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I would think it would be primarily religion based (Catholic), and also somewhat ethnic (but this is complicated by some of the Protestants being English and some Irish). StuRat (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Traditionally, the Social Democratic and Labour Party were more civic nationalist and Sinn Féin were very heavily religious/ethnic nationalist. With the weakening of the SDLP as a major force in Northern Irish politics however, Sinn Féin has been picking up more moderate and liberal nationalists. Smurrayinchester 19:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd suggest the ideological division between the SDLP and Sinn Féin was primarily about the correct approach to achieving a united Ireland, respectively by peaceful means or by "armed struggle". (Indeed, the link to the article on Civic (or Liberal) Nationalism quoted by the OP specifically comments that Sinn Féin are liberal nationalists). A brief view of Sinn Féin's policies on Equality displays none of the Blut und Boden style thinking typical of ethnic nationalism. The only Sinn Féin policy which has an element of ethnic nationalism is support for the Irish language, but this is not to the denigration of English [7]. Moreover comments that Sinn Féin are "religion-based" are very wide of the mark. For historical reasons, Irish Catholics have mainly been nationalists and (in the last century or so at least) nationalists have mainly been Catholics, but Sinn Féin's policies are not especially in keeping with the teachings of the Catholic Church on social issues; for example they support same-sex marriage [8]. With regard to StuRat's comments, none of the Protestants in Ireland (North or South) are "English" (with the obvious exception of people born in England who have gone to live there). Some are descended from English settlers who settled there several hundred years ago, and at least as many are descended from Scots settlers. However, none are English or Scots now, although those Protestants who are Unionists maintain that they are British (which is no more an ethnicity than American is). Others who are more versed in the subtleties of Irish politics may wish to add more, but I felt a corrective was needed to responses thus far. Valiantis (talk) 05:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

honorary doctorate

Notable author Jane Schmoe receives an honorary doctorate from XYZ University (I'm not sure of the occasion for the doctorate but I think commencement speakers traditionally receive them, so that's one possibility).

To what extent is it expected and/or acceptable to refer to her as "Dr. Schmoe" in her later doings, if she doesn't have any other doctoral degrees besides the honorary one?

Thanks.

67.117.145.9 (talk) 19:58, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It is not generally expected at all. Some honorary awardees who don't have their own earned degrees insist on being called "Doctor", but most don't. I'd go for the default case unless the person indicates otherwise. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:57, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

From Debrett's: "In practice, when a well-known figure outside the academic world receives an honorary doctorate, the recipient does not generally adopt the title of 'Doctor', especially when he or she already has other styles or titles, for example a peer, an officer in the Armed Forces, a judge, etc. This, however, is a matter of the recipient's choice." (http://www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/professions/academics/doctor.aspx) - Cucumber Mike (talk) 21:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, the person I have in mind is in the academic world. Does that change things? I don't think she refers to herself as Dr. Schmoe though. At least her personal website doesn't mention it as far as I notice. (And that Debretts page says surgeons aren't supposed to be called Dr. That's the first I ever heard of that. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 22:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

That practice varies from country to country. Some surgeons insist on "Mr", as if being tarred with a common-or-garden "Dr" is somehow beneath them. Reverse snobbery of the worst kind, imo. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It's rare, but not unknown; in general, it's only done if the person uses it themselves, cf/ Ian Paisley, in which case it's a matter of personal preference as to whether or not you do. If they don't use it themselves and you still refer to them as Dr. Schmoe in the knowledge that they only have an honorary degree, it's going to seem implicitly sarcastic or mocking - which, of course, may be intended... Shimgray | talk | 22:19, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I still see see Paisley being referred to as "Dr Ian Paisley" in the press, even though he's been Lord Bannside for nigh on 2 years now. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Most academics, for whom a Masters, Doctorate (PhD) or Habilitation is a "no-ticket-no-start" work qualification, as well as an example of research output, are aware of what a DLitt (Hon.) means, and how it differs from a DLitt. People usually end up judging each other based on quality and quantity of research output. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, this person has an MA (and an honorary doctorate) and is a professor of journalism, and a Wikipedia article mentions her as Dr. So-and-so. I'm wondering whether to ask for it to be changed. Thanks for any advice. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 22:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Honorary_degree#Practical_use has the answer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ib30 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It might help if you told us which Wikipedia page you're referring to. You could also raise this question on the talk page for that article. RudolfRed (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The page is John Forbes Nash, Jr. The external links section mentions a video by his biographer "Dr. Sylvia Nasar". Prof. Nasar's academic background is in her faculty profile here and the only doctoral degree mentioned is an honorary one from De Paul University. I thought about putting an edit request on the article's talkpage, but decided to ask here first what the usual way to deal with this was. Thanks. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 23:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

What about Dr. J.? --Jayron32 23:46, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

In this case, it would be correct to refer to her as Sylvia Nasar (or as Professor Nasar). She doesn't use the doctorate herself; I'm guessing this is someone trying to be correct and going a little too far... Shimgray | talk | 13:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Vijay Mallya has an honorary doctorate and uses Dr before his name. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 07:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Irrelevant point of information. Dr (David) Carey had an honorary ecclesiastical doctorate and used it. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

When you say Dr. Carey, do you mean the Archbishop? He had a variety of honorary degrees, but he also had a "real" PhD. (Our article claims it was from Durham, but Who's Who gives London.) Shimgray | talk | 13:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Kitty did specify Dr David Carey, not Archbishop George Carey. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I've known a few different D.D. holders in the USA who were typically addressed as "Dr. ___", although they didn't refer to themselves that way. Nyttend (talk) 19:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Mormons abroad and learning native languages

Since Mormons never mission in their own country (apparently), does that mean that there are Mormons in some country who actually sit down and learn Swedish just to go to Sweden and knock doors and speak with people in their native language? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 22:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I've never heard that Mormons don't mission in their own country. I got the impression that most, if not all, are American, but why wouldn't they mission within America? Ib30 (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

LDS church members do have missions in the US. Some go door to door here, as elsewhere, and some serve their missions at various museums and historical sites throughout the US. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

We do have an article on the subject if it helps: Mormon missionary. -- œ^™ 23:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I never heard the word "mission" used as a verb before. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

And what about it in the gerund form missioning? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ib30 (talk • contribs) 23:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

This is Swenglish. The Swedish word for 'evangelise' is 'missionera', literally 'to mission'. One of those false friends. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 12:43, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It was discovered recently that they don't operate in Ireland. They're working on correcting this glaring O'Mission. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:55, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Very funny. I have a friend who is from a Mormon family (he is not observant, himself), from Utah, and his brother is missioning in Peru.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The ones in France speak French, to varying degrees of fluency, but they always have a native speaker with them. (Actually, I am more amazed that there are native French-speaking Mormons than I am that American Mormons would learn French.) Adam Bishop (talk) 09:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Some come here to Australia and cope with our version of English. Given the trouble I had ordering a Coke in the US, that's no mean feat. HiLo48 (talk) 09:58, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I remember the day I had a knock on my door. There were two young men in white shirts and name tags. The first name tag said "Elder Smith". I asked if his friend's name was Goldsbrough Mort, but he just looked blankly at me. True story. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 10:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad you linked Goldsbrough Mort. I understood the story without the link but otherwise I doubt if anyone but Australians aged over 50 with rural connections would have a clue what you're talking about! HiLo48 (talk) 11:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The story was mainly for your benefit, HiLo. The link was for others.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 11:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Mormons certainly do proselytize in the United States. But they may concentrate on cultural environments that are particularly alien to Mormonism. I saw them particularly often when I lived in San Francisco, which they might consider especially in need of salvation. This page suggests that Mormons really do learn Swedish to proselytize in Sweden. Marco polo (talk) 14:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that they proselytize in US, but concentrate in certain areas. College towns, for instance, have a much higher incidence in my experience. As to the confusion on where they will go on mission: I believe there is a strong tradition at least that the mission takes place somewhere else, i.e. not in one's hometown. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That sounds right; I've seen missionaries several times in Bloomington, Indiana, and one of the very few times I've seen them otherwise (and the only time I've talked with them outside of Bloomington) was in West Lafayette, Indiana. Nyttend (talk) 17:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC) Please don't complain about my willingness to visit Purdue while an IU student :-)

Here's a little bit about how LDS missions work. Each missionary applies to, serve a mission. When you apply you'll indicate things like health problems, languages spoken, time spent in foreign countries, etc. All the applications are then sent to a central office which then responds back with a mission call. The mission call specifies what mission you'll go to and what language you'll speak. So you may be called to go to, for example, San Fransisco, Laotian speaking or to Laos, Laotian speaking or to Sweden, Swedish speaking. You can be called to anywhere in the world, either in your home country or elsewhere, but not to where you currently live. After you accept your mission call (which nearly, but not all, people do) you then report to a Missionary Training Center on a specified date. If you will be speaking your native language, you spend a couple of weeks there before you head out to your assigned mission. If you're learning another language, you'll spend about two months learning the language at the Training Center before you're sent out. The new missionary is then assigned to another missionary and a city or area. Sometimes one or both of them will be native speakers, but often that's not the case. So both of those white shirted missionaries may have never even heard of your language a year ago... Tobyc75 (talk) 02:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The American LDS missionaries I met in Taiwan some 30+ years ago were well-known among the foreign student population for being excellent linguists. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

February 20

How much capabilites does Israel need to attack Iran?

Is the army of Israel ready for that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by XPPaul (talk • contribs) 16:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The Israel Defense Forces are quite large and, while it's never admitted it, Israel is generally believed to have nuclear weapons (although if it tried to use them against Iran as anything but a retaliation for a nuclear strike by Iran, it would get in rather a lot of trouble with the rest of the world). So, it could give Iran a good fight. What would actually happen depends a lot on how the rest of the world views the conflict - there is a good chance that other countries would get involved (particularly the US), which would make a very big difference. There, we're into the realms of trying to predict the future course of international relations in the Middle East, and I doubt even a crystal ball would help us there! --Tango (talk) 17:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Let's see, first off, it probably wouldn't involve the army at all, but rather the Israeli Air Force. Here are some things they would likely need to attack Iran successfully:

1) The right to overfly some Arab nations. Different flight paths are possible, which would travel over different nations. While many of those nations don't want to see Iran get nuclear weapons, and would love to see Israel disrupt their program, they can't politically allow such overflights. So, more likely, Israel would fly over without public support from those nations. They might either get private guarantees of safe conduct or might just take their chances and bet that any half-hearted response from those nations will be ineffective.

2) Mid-air refueling capability. It's a long way to Iran and back to Israel, so they would need to refuel. Again, landing in an Arab nation to refuel is probably not politically possible. Of course, both the need for overflight and refueling would be eliminated by the use of US aircraft carriers, but that's also politically impossible in the current climate, and any situation where it would be possible, such as if Iran engages in full-scale attacks on ships in Persian Gulf, would result in US planes flown from US aircraft carriers.

3) Bunker-buster bombs, made to penetrate to underground labs.

4) Commando teams would be even more effective, but delivering them and extracting them without use of a land base adjacent to Iran is likely impossible.

5) Unmanned aircraft or long-range missiles might eliminate many of the problems, as they could be used one-way to attack, which removes the requirement to refuel, and having their pilots shot down, captured and put on trial would no longer be a concern. StuRat (talk) 18:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a long article on this very topic in this morning's New York Times. I will just point out that what they are "ready for" depends on what one thinks their goals are. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:34, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Another possibility is that Israel could use something like their Delilah UAV and cruise missile system to deliver bombs on target with minimal risk. Those 30 kg warheads wouldn't do much damage, but could evoke a response from Iran that brings in the US. As such, that might be the way for Israel to ultimately take out Iranian nuclear capability with minimal risk to themselves. And, if Iran prudently refused to escalate, Israel could still try a more conventional air strike. StuRat (talk) 18:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

XPPaul -- Israel can do a 5- or 10-plane raid against one narrowly-specific non-hardened target extending over a relatively small area (such as Osirak or Deir ez-Zor) with relatively little problem -- and in fact the Israelis spend a lot of time and effort planning and training to keep up their capability to commit such raids. However, the problem is that an attack on Iran would have to target fairly widely dispersed (and in many cases partially hardened) infrastructure in order to have a good chance of delaying Iran's ability to assemble nuclear weapons by at least five years. (Any attack which set Iran back by less than five years probably wouldn't be worth it for Israel.) This means that it would have to go well beyond a stealth squadron raid, and be more of a full-scale attack, committing a significant fraction of Israel's air forces, leading to some of the logistical/political complications mentioned by others above. AnonMoos (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It is a fantasy. Israel lacks the airstrike assets to eliminate Iran's nuclear program, since the program is likely widely dispersed, hidden in the basements of hospitals, schools and orphanages, and in hardened sites under mountains. "Bunker busters" were notably unsuccessful in getting rid of Saddam when the US used them in Iraq. A raid by a few planes with a few conventional bombs? Be real. Edison (talk) 02:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

A nuclear weapons program doesn't fit in a spider-hole. According to the New York Times article linked to previously by Mr. 98, Iran has 4 main facilities, and their locations are known: "Iran’s four major nuclear sites — the uranium enrichment facilities at Natanz and Fordo, the heavy-water reactor at Arak and the yellowcake-conversion plant at Isfahan". There's no evidence they are using civilian shields. The smaller Israeli bunker busters might not be up to the task, but the huge US bombs are. StuRat (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is an article that discusses the NYT piece. According to German security expert Hans Rühle, Israel's most powerful bunker buster bomb GBU-28 has the capability to destroy the roof of the hardened nuclear facilities. If the first GBU-28 strike does not eliminate the entire facility, it will be completed by a second GBU-28. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 04:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This may be old, but interesting. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 14:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sturat:

Obviously, in war, there is no "zbang and we're finished", as Israelis used to say. An enemy can always rebuild what has been destroyed over the long term, if given the opportunity. (Another way one Israeli commander put it is "there can be no Knockout, only a victory on points"). The question, as others have said, is about causing a significant setback to the Iranian nuclear program.

1) As to overflying rights, I doubt the countries in the way (Jordan, Syria, and Iraq) have a practical anti-air capacity of the sort which Israel cannot overcome with some clever routing and stealth technology. I'd assume a very limited use for any ground-to-air systems in denying airspace for overflights. You simply fly round them, if you can figure out where they are. And as to engaging air-to-air... the Syrian air force, for one, probably wouldn't even bother trying. Nor would the Iraqi air force, to the degree which it even exists. Jordan may be a more difficult problem, as Israel wouldn't want to damage its' relationship with them if it can help it. Plausible deniability may be enough for the Jordanians to turn a blind eye, though.

2) Israel already has mid-air refueling capability. I doubt Israel has planes designed to land on Aircraft Carriers. Besides, if they use U.S. aircraft carriers, the U.S. might as well do the attacking themselves, as you imply.

3) Does Israel have "Tactical" Nuclear weapons, of the sort which would be useful for localized Bunker-busting, rather than city-razing? Any expert guesses on this question?

4) Israel has likely used commandos, and we may likely yet see more such operations. Extraction is always risky, and your cover can be blown. That's just the nature of such operations. But Israel got pretty much its' entire team out of Dubai intact after killing Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. Such operations make excellent Psychological warfare, as they force Iran to ramp up internal security and counter-infiltration resources. Militarily, though, they likely do rather limited damage. So commandos are presumably an option being used. The target set they can hit is quite limited, though. Each strike is very resource intensive, so they are pretty much drip-drip "spot" operations, not wide-scale ones.

The target set depends on intelligence gathering and overcoming hardened targets. Israel seems to have a surprisingly well-developed human-intelligence network in Iran, as evidenced by the successful killings of Nuclear Scientists. But big challenges likely remain in this area. 58.111.178.170 (talk) 15:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

2) Yes, they have refueling capability, but it's rather limited, and may not be sufficient for this task, as the articles linked to previously explain. StuRat (talk) 19:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Question 3 is impossible to answer because Israel will never publicly disclose facts about its nuclear arsenal, if it has any. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 15:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not impossible to make reasonable speculations based on what is known about the Israeli program (which includes, you might remember, rather specific photographs of Israel nuclear cores that Mordechai Vanunu leaked out). Anyway, "tactical" describes less the technical aspects than it does the usage of them. Both this bomb and this bomb are about the same explosive yield; the first is "strategic" because it couldn't be aimed well and was dropped in the middle of a city, the second is "tactical" because you can aim it a little better and ideally you'd just be shooting it at soldiers. If the question is, "does Israel have the ability to manufacture nukes that can penetrate deeply into the ground before detonation?," the answer is probably "no" — given that they had to buy conventional bunker-busters from the United States, they probably can't natively manufacture that technology on their own. Applying bunker-busting technology to nukes is probably not that easy without doing more nuclear testing than Israel has likely done. Anyway, I think they'd be pretty dumb to use nuclear weapons of any sort. Israel may be many things, but stupid is not one of them. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I would assume that the less collateral damage you cause, and the less civilians you kill, the less political backlash you're likely to suffer on the international scene? Tactical nukes, even if Israel has them, would be a last resort - but so would an attack on Iran in the first place. If you can avoid razing cities and killing thousands, you can reduce the shock and outcry somewhat, I'd assume. 58.111.178.170 (talk) 16:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not just about collateral damage. If Israel used any nuclear weapon in Iran, no matter how small, there would be a huge backlash, even if it didn't hit anything. StuRat (talk) 19:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Why Israel?

couldn't the jews have chosen another place to create a jewish state? Something like a part of Germany? — Preceding unsigned comment added by XPPaul (talk • contribs) 16:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Vaguely speaking, Israel is the birthplace of Judaism. Most of the significant events described in the Jewish scriptures happened in the region which now makes up the nation of Israel. See Origins of Judaism. Staecker (talk) 17:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

they/we have a bunch of very holy stuff (jewish religious law/its interpretation says jews were 'given' this land) you can't move easily or would lose its holy significance. otherwise i have heard some very good ideas that would be win/win/win/win/win/WIN all around, with israel the biggest winner of all. but you cant rewrite this religious stuff (well you can't, its just outside my personal level of persuation as (not) a religious scholar). 84.2.147.177 (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

do note that it should be possible (to reinterpret in the win/win/win/win/win/WIN way): just read the torah and compare it with what is followed literally if you want to know how much leeway is possible. 84.2.147.177 (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

See British Uganda Programme, Jewish Autonomous Oblast, and other things mentioned in Proposals for a Jewish state. Nyttend (talk) 17:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Also see Slattery Report, and the alternate historical fiction, The Yiddish Policemen's Union. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

84.2.147.177 -- See Kamal Salibi for someone who "rewrote this religious stuff" (but it didn't resolve anything). -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

And we should also ask "Why Palestine ?". That is, Palestine being such a tiny portion of the Muslim world, the Palestinians could easily be absorbed into neighboring nations, if those nations would allow it. Instead, they prefer to keep the Palestinians on their soil confined to refugee camps permanently. The only thing they seem willing to give the Palestinians is weapons. StuRat (talk) 18:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The alternative to Palestine for Palestinians who want to remain there is ethnic cleansing, which is considered a crime against humanity. Marco polo (talk) 18:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Marco Polo -- there have been a lot of population exchanges during the 20th century (between Turkey and Greece, between Pakistan and India, etc. etc.). Some Israelis consider the decade roughly 1947-1958 to be a de facto population exchange, since slightly more than a million Arabs left territories which became Israel, while slightly less than a million Jews left Arab countries and arrived in Israel... AnonMoos (talk) 21:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a rather vague term, meaning everything from genocide down to forced relocation and "no right of return", in this case. And, of course, forced relocation (at the very least) is exactly what the Palestinian goal is for Israeli Jews. Also consider that Jerusalem was Jewish first, and is the holiest city for Jews, while, at best, it's third for Muslims, after Mecca and Medina (perhaps lower for Shia Muslims, who also have holy cities for their own sect, such as Najaf). StuRat (talk) 19:07, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Can we please end the soapboxing right here? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

To respond directly to the original question, Zionists chose Palestine as a place to encourage Jewish settlement because, as others have said, Jewish sacred texts said that their god had granted much of that region to Jews. I would point out, though, that archaeology and texts from Egypt and Mesopotamia (as well as the Hebrew Bible itself) demonstrate that Canaan had a long history of occupation by a variety of cultural and religious groups before any group identifiably Israelite (i.e., culturally and perhaps genetically ancestral to Jews) appeared in the region. Even Jerusalem existed as a city long before Israelites or Jews lived there. So it isn't right that Jews were in the region first. Jews were one of a series of cultural groups that lived in the region. They were probably the predominant group in the region from about 1000 BCE until about 300 CE, when Greek and/or Aramaic-speaking Christians (many probably descended from Jews and their pre-Jewish ancestors) began to predominate in the region, though a small group of (Greek and/or Aramaic-speaking) Jews remained in the region. From about 900 CE, until about 1950, several decades after the emergence of Zionism, the region was overwhelmingly Arabic speaking, with a Muslim majority (very likely largely likewise descended from Jews), a large Christian minority and (until the late 1800s) a much smaller, also Arabic-speaking Jewish minority. So it is not as simple as "Jews were there first". Jews and their descendants (among whom are many Palestinians) were not first, but have been there since the emergence of Judaism some way into the region's history. The relatively recent development of a Hebrew-speaking Jewish majority is a consequence of Zionism. Marco polo (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

By "first" I meant "before Muslims", as the presence of ethnic groups there prior to that, which no longer exist, is irrelevant. StuRat (talk) 20:27, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

But as Marco has said, before the Muslims were there the whole area was Christian. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

To be exact, in 600 AD the majority of the population would have been somewhat-Hellenized Aramaic-speaking Monophysite "Syrians"... AnonMoos (talk) 21:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Right, but how is that relevant ? StuRat (talk) 21:54, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, if you think that Israel should belong to the people who had it "before the Muslims", then that's the Greek/Syrian Christians. Oh but they don't count, so the people before them...but that's the pagan Greeks/Romans. But before them! Well then you get the Jews, but why stop there? Why not give it back to the descendents of the Phoenicians? If we're not allowed to go back past the Jews, why are we allowed to skip past the groups that lived there immediately before the Muslims? And are modern Jews really the same ethnic group as the Jews who used to live there? (I'm not saying Israel doesn't deserve to exist as a "Jewish state", I'm just saying "they were there before the Muslims" is not a particularly useful argument.) Adam Bishop (talk) 00:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The current conflict is between Muslims and Jews, so only the relative weights of their claims matter. StuRat (talk) 03:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Arab Christians in the area would object to that formulation... AnonMoos (talk) 04:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And are they trying to create their own nation there ? StuRat (talk) 06:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a good question actually. Where do Palestinian Christians fit into all this? It's always portrayed as a Jewish-Muslim struggle, when it's obviously much more complicated than that. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

StuRat -- through most of the period from the 1960s to the 1990s, the quasi-"official" Palestinian leadership avoided identifying Palestinian nationalism with Islamism, and Christians like George Habash were some of the biggest terrorists; and after the establishment of the Palestinian authority, Arafat made a point of showing up in in Bethlehem every Christmas, etc. etc. Some of that separation between nationalism and Islamism has now faded somewhat with the rise of Hamas etc., the way that Muslim gunmen used a Christian neighborhood to fire on Gilo, so that it would be the Christians who suffered the brunt of Israeli retaliation, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 09:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Marco Polo -- What you've said isn't wrong exactly, but you left out the fact that the reason why Jews lost population predominance in Judea-Galilee was due to the First Jewish Revolt and Second Jewish Revolt, and discriminatory or oppressive Roman and Byzantine policies in the aftermath... AnonMoos (talk) 21:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

In summary:

• Judaism, as an originally tribal religion, is to a great extent associated with the "Holy Land," and it had been a dream of the Jews to reclaim it ever since they lost it to the Romans.
• There was already a Jewish population there (the Yishuv).
• The territory is a neutral ground of sorts between the Ashkenazi Jews of Europe and the Mizrahi Jews of the Middle East and North Africa.
• The territory was thought in some sense to be "up for grabs" as it was part of the crumbling Ottoman Empire not generally inhabited by Turks. There was a sense during World War I that there would be all this terra nullius in the formerly Ottoman Middle East for the Allies to carve up how they wished after the war was over. This led the British to issue the Balfour Declaration of 1917 in the hope of getting Jewish support for the war. In fact, the Allies were promising a lot of things to a lot of people while secretly planning to keep everything themselves. Nonetheless, it's easy to see how a Jewish state in the former Ottoman Empire was a lot more practical than putting one in defeated Germany, for instance.
• Ottoman Palestine was thought, rightly or wrongly, to be A land without a people for a people without a land. It was considered (not without reason) underpopulated, and, at the time, there was no real "Palestinian" Arab identity that was separate from Arab identity as a whole. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Mwalcoff -- The "land without a people for a people without a land" slogan was loosely thrown around by 19th-century theoretical Zionists in Europe, but was not very prominently used by Jews actually living in British Mandate Palestine during the 1920s and 1930s. It stemmed more from the fact that many Europeans who visited Ottoman Palestine in the mid 19th century (and were not blinded by Biblical goggles) perceived it to be a pathetic crumbling misgoverned semi-wasteland (see The Innocents Abroad) rather than from any militantly dispossessionist characteristics of Zionist ideology. P.S. The standard accepted word for "pan-Arab nationalism" in the modern Arabic language -- قومية qawmiyya -- most literally means "tribalism"! AnonMoos (talk) 03:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Suppose that the Bretons — some of whose ancestors were displaced from Somerset, others of whose ancestors merged with Anglo-Saxon invaders to form the present population of Somerset — faced persecution in France. Suppose further that, according to Breton sacred texts, their god granted them the land of Somerset. Now, the English-speaking people of Somerset do not have an identity distinct from that of other English people. Would that justify forcing the people of Somerset off their land to make way for the Bretons? I don't deny that the Bretons would deserve justice or that they would deserve a place where they could practice their culture without facing persecution. Still, why should the people of Somerset have to suffer to end the suffering of the Bretons, particularly when the people of Somerset were themselves not at fault for the suffering that prompted the migration of the Bretons? Marco polo (talk) 19:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, can we please stop the arguing? If someone has something else to help answer the question, please add it, but if people are just going to argue about this, I think we should mark this question closed. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:32, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How did Rastafaris come to believe in Haile Selassie I?

There's a germ of an explanation in Rastafari movement#Emergence, but it still boggles my mind. How did so many people in Jamaica come to think of a seemingly unassuming Ethiopian emperor as a Messiah? The article points out that he was at one point a famous black man in a European-dominated world, received by kings and queens as an equal, the inheritor of the one country in Africa which defied colonization. That I can understand. Still, he was merely succeeding Zewditu I of Ethiopia; so far as I see here he had no written testament that people follow, and he took a decidedly hands-off approach to the religion, which doesn't seem to have penetrated Ethiopia itself, and followed Christianity himself. He was criticized by Marcus Garvey for leaving Ethiopia during Axis occupation, and seems like he should have gotten criticized a lot more for allowing the List of massacres committed during the Eritrean War of Independence. Though I understand his power was waning in favor of Marxist elements in the government, wouldn't a Messiah have done something about that? I mean, by comparison, Emperor Norton I reportedly stopped an anti-Chinese pogrom with the power of a prayer. I just can't see how a few street preachers managed to talk so many people into holding and maintaining a belief in Selassie's divinity. Wnt (talk) 20:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

There was some kind of quasi-Garveyite prophecy that a king would be crowned in Aftrica, and Haile Selassie received extremely prominent international news coverage for the incident in 1936, when addressed the League of Nations and warned the democracies that if they didn't effectively act against the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, then sooner or later their own time would come. That was the one moment between the legends of Prester John and "We are the World" when a large number of people in far distant places really concerned themselves with Ethiopia... AnonMoos (talk) 20:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

An article by Garvey about the coronation in 1930 is here. Garvey wrote that: "The Psalmist prophesied that "Princes would come out of Egypt and Ethiopia would stretch forth her hands unto God" (Psalm 68:31). We have no doubt that the time is now come. Ethiopia is now really stretching forth her hands. This great kingdom of the East has been hidden for many centuries, but gradually she is rising to take a leading place in the world and it is for us of the Negro race to assist in every way to hold up the hand of Emperor Ras Tafari." Another key initiator of Rastafarianism was Leonard Howell (Gong Guru Maragh), whose pamphlet The Promise Key - here - says: "Upon His Majesty Ras Tafari’s head are many diadems and on His garments a name written “King of Kings and Lord of Lords", Oh come let us adore him for he is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, The Conquering Lion of Judah, The Elect of God and the Light of the World. His Majesty Ras Tafari is the head over all man for he is the Supreme God. His body is the fullness of him that filleth all in all. Now my dear people let this be our goal, forward to the King of Kings must be the cry of our social hope...." See also Grounation Day. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, that article on The Promise Key makes a brief reference to "repatriation" to Ethiopia. I suppose that today, it is hard to picture how utterly appalling and oppressive the race prejudice against black people was back then, and so perhaps the notion of repatriation under a native Ethiopian king, with some degree of scriptural prophecy invoked surrounding it, fell on fertile ground? Yet it still seems hard to understand how it retained its pull as the world changed. Wnt (talk) 01:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

On consideration, I wonder whether a better comparison is to Joan of Arc and Charles VII of France? Perhaps when a nation, or a continent, is invaded and brought to ruin and humiliation, there comes a time when the people will perceive divinity in its remaining authority. Wnt (talk) 02:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If you want a historical example of a king elevated into the god of a new religion established outside of the territories of his kingdom, then the so-called "mad caliph" Hakim more or less qualifies. In any case, the basic patterns of Rastafarianism seem to have been established long before the Eritrean War of Independence etc... -- AnonMoos (talk) 04:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

"Though I understand his power was waning in favor of Marxist elements in the government" is not correct. There were not Marxists within his gov't, but in the opposition. Haile Selassie was deposed in 1974 by a group of militaries, that gradually would come to embrace Marxism. --Soman (talk) 11:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Map confusion

Red and blue lines (on the bottom, Galicia of Austria-Hungary

Okay, this map is really confusing me. It's of the Eastern Front of World War I. I'm focusing on the blue and red lines with arrows that I assume are troop movements (I could be wrong, the map doesn't verify), and I'm confused as to which lines belong to which sides (allies or central powers). On the Galician theater, it seems as if they're both Russian offences, but as I said I'm not sure. Any help? 64.229.204.143 (talk) 21:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Russian troops are marked in blue. Austro-German troops are marked in red. Austro-German start lines are marked in thick dashed red (1 September). Austro-German offensives are marked with small red arrows, following a dashed-small red path, to their stop lines in thick red (20 September). In the South, Austrian forces attacked, and were repulsed in a strong Russian counter-offensive. Russian forces largely deployed without being in contact, ie, without clear "start lines". We can also see the "lightning" movement indicator for the deployment in Eastern Germany / Western Poland of German troops. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Agree. There are a few confusing things about this map:

1) Russia being represented by blue. Of course, this was before they were communist, but still isn't what you'd expect.

2) Like any map showing differences over several dates, this results in one area sometimes being in German hands, and sometimes in Russian. I find a series of maps, one for each date, to be far clearer. Traditionally, they did it all on one map to save space in a book, but, with modern technology, we can have forward and back buttons to allow you to step through frames, or let it run as a movie, without taking up much more space on the page.

3) A clear key/legend would help. StuRat (talk) 21:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

@3 - a lot of these military maps conform, to some extent, to the NATO Military Symbols for Land Based Systems (or to the US MIL STD that preceded it). That's not much help for this image, other than showing unit sizes. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's best not to go by surnames, since Paul von Rennenkampf was a Russian! -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

US Restraurant Reviews

Which website do I go to to find reviews of restraurants in the United States? I'm not a US citizen and I'm visiting the US soon. 202.177.218.59 (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a huge number of review sites out there but one of the biggest is TripAdvisor. It has a section on restaurants (http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurants). ny156uk (talk) 23:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yelp.com, Google Reviews, take your pick. PCHS-NJROTC ^(Messages) 00:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Zagat's Guide is always reliable if you will be in a particular city or region. Shadowjams (talk) 03:47, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And there's the Michelin Guide, which, despite the sound, doesn't rate food by how much it resembles car tires in flavor and texture. Here's their guide online, for New York City: [9]. StuRat (talk) 04:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Urban Spoon (no article?! redirected...) also has ratings and reviews. Many of these have smart phone apps as well if you're wondering. Dismas|^(talk) 04:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Another possible source is Wikitravel, which discusses restaurants in its coverage of some places. Nyttend (talk) 05:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If you're visiting the US you will need a good general guidebook. Don't just rely on websites. The best is the Rough Guide, which includes short but useful reviews of restaurants in every major city. --Viennese Waltz 06:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that a general guide is useful, but its selection of restaurants is limited by the amount of space available on the page and the time available to its reviewer to visit restaurants in that city. (Having edited a travel guide, I know that reviewers face a very hectic schedule, sometimes with only a couple of days per city.) Living in the United States, I tend to rely most on Yelp.com and Tripadvisor.com. Zagat's is also very good but requires a subscription. Google Reviews are new and often rather insubstantial, so I wouldn't rely on them too much. Marco polo (talk) 21:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

February 21

Specialty hospitals and emergency situations

If EMS responds to an emergency situation like a heart attack where someone has one foot at the Pearly Gates and one foot slipping on a banana peel, or if there's a huge mass casualty, will EMS take the patient(s) to a specialty hospital like a children's hospital (even if the patient is an adult), a VA hospital (even if the patient isn't a veteran), or a cancer hospital to get the patient stabilized assuming that the said facility is the nearest facility and has an emergency room? I do know I've heard of civilians being taken to U.S. Naval hospitals on base in such situations. PCHS-NJROTC ^(Messages) 01:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

See Mass casualty events; the U.S. military and its regional hospitals, and, to a lesser extent, civilian hospitals, conduct mass casualty training for various scenarios; the response would depend greatly upon the type, scale, and location. Dru of Id (talk) 02:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm reminded of the scent in The Natural where Robert Redford's character is taken to a maternity hospital because it's the closest one. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds fishy to me.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 05:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Why "to a lesser extent"? I'm sure civilian hospitals hold lots of training on major incidents - they're the ones most likely to have to deal with them. --Tango (talk) 00:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Why would a cancer hospital have an emergency room? I've also never heard of a children's hospital with one, and I doubt VA hospitals have them. --Tango (talk) 00:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Some Children's Hospitals certainly do have them - and you forced to watch endless hours of cartoons while you wait in them (true story). Both of Michigan's major children's hospitals have them. Some VA hospitals have them too.[10] Rmhermen (talk) 16:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

See Trauma center. Cases are triaged so that the worst cases go to the highest level certified emergency department that still has capacity. Trauma center may be rated at different levels for adults and children. Rmhermen (talk) 16:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad − academic career

According to his official biography, president Ahmadinejad holds a Ph.D. from Iran University of Science and Technology, "wrote many scientific papers" and "supervised theses of tens of students at MS and Ph.D. levels". Do we have details on his papers and his Ph.D. thesis (titles, contents, journals, publication dates)? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 10:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Check coverage from the time of his election, there were many bio articles in the paper. Most were somewhat favorable, which I doubt you'd see much of in a Western paper these days.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hamid Behbahani was his PHD supervisor, according to media reports, of course. However you don't need to be very excited about the fact that Ahmadinejad has a PHD from an Iranian university because many PHD students in Iran write thesis denying Holocaust. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 14:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

So, wait, because Iran has a bizarre take on the Holocaust and its university student's interests reflect that, even civil engineering must be somehow tainted by that? Come on, get off it. I've no idea whether his work in civil engineering or traffic engineering is any good, but unless it actually has something to do with denying the Holocaust, dragging that into it is just ad hominem. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the point is that Iran may grant PhDs to people not strictly for competence, but because they support the position of the ruling elite. So, it's possible Ahmadinejad may not be worthy of a PhD, but just might have known the right people and told them what they wanted to hear. But, of course, even the Nazis were capable of doing good science, as long as it wasn't in the fields where the party line had to be followed. It would be interesting to have somebody outside Iran review his work and determine if it's really PhD-worthy. StuRat (talk) 21:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

" just might have known the right people and told them what they wanted to hear. ": isn't it often like that, everywhere? Anyway, there are enough crackpots getting PhD in the West too: see Gillian_McKeith#Debate_about_qualifications or mediocre guys getting a PhD for a dissertation copied from the Internet (including Wikipedia): Karl-Theodor_zu_Guttenberg. There is no need to discrediting whole countries however.XPPaul (talk) 22:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Gary Null is another crackpot with a questionable degree from the US. However, if a particular university gives out bogus degrees, that would call into question any degree they give, even if the bogus ones are in a different field. StuRat (talk) 22:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think there's there's a significant difference when it comes to questionable universities in developed countries with well respected universities. In those cases, the quality of the lecturers, researchers etc may be questionable because few people competent may want to work for such a university. Similarly few students genuine wanting to learn or to perform quality research are going to want to be students there. In cases of developing countries like Iran, if all the universities have problems, then quality lecturers and reseachers have limited choice. Either they can emigrate, and often many do or they do something else or they learn to live in the university system. Similar students can try to study in foreign universities but scholarships to do so, particularly at the bachelor level is usually fairly limited and only available to the ultra top students. And self or parent funding tends to be difficult. (There are greater options for postgraduate research particularly PhDs but not all may wish to do so and there may be some factors stopping them doing so.) So while there universities, even the best ones, may often not be as good as respected universities in developed countries and have a variety of problems, it may not mean their degrees are always useless. Nil Einne (talk) 23:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Not always, no, but suspect enough to require independent verification of the skills of the graduate. StuRat (talk) 06:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

"Iran may grant PhDs to people not strictly for competence, but because they support the position of the ruling elite." He's a civil engineer. What's the pro-Khomeni angle on that, I wonder? I think it's just foolish to assume that because he's from a country where they believe different things than this one that somehow he is less of a civil engineer than you'd find around here. There are, of course, differences in the quality of technical training on a country by country basis, but to assume just based on the fact that Holocaust denial is common in Iran, that suddenly all education is meaningless, is foolish. They have real scientists and engineers over there. They wouldn't be able to support a nuclear program if they didn't (even with help from outsiders). --Mr.98 (talk) 12:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

What you have to remember is that Iran is for the most part a rather modern country, which, when it is permitted, exports a large quantity of oil very well. It does not do that by having civil engineering degrees awarded to people who don't know which end of a T-square to grasp. Nil Einne's view is the fairly standard view of learning in countries upon which we look down a little bit, which adequately describes most in Asia.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

American education system vs Indian system

My friend who stays in USA visited last week and when he saw my textbooks he said that they are really difficult and education in USA is more easy and there is less burden on students. Is this really true . you can have a idea by last years 12th standard maths Question paper Rahul^{Text me} 11:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think few 12th graders would be able to pass that in the US.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

There's no simple answer here. First, can you tell us what 12th standard maths test should correspond to in USA? Is it the last test before university (Last year of high school in US)? Otherwise we don't know what to compare it to. You might be interested in the Advanced Placement exams in the USA. In short, many American students could pass the test you post, but by no means all. We don't even generally require calculus in the USA :-/ An anecdote: I used to work in a graduate math admissions office in a large state university. We had many applicants from around the world, and around the USA. It was commonly believed that Asian (including India) applicants tended to have stronger qualifications than Americans on average. We did not compile statistics by nationality. Even if we did, it would be hard to ascribe cause. It may be that the Indian system is generally better at teaching math. It could be that Indians are genetically better at math. It could be that Indian culture puts more value on math. It could be that only the "best of the best" are willing to go to the other side of the world to pursue education, while it's pretty easy to move within one's home country. You can easily find many authors lamenting that USA education standards are too low, but that's more a matter of opinion than reference :)SemanticMantis (talk) 15:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm dreadful at maths and found most of those questions to be an utter nightmare. Then I came to Q.28, which is worth a lot of marks (equal to six early questions, according to the rubric). It seems so childishly simple, it's either very out of place or I have even less idea about maths than I thought. Surely once you've found that the first coin is gold, there's only two types of box it could be (gold/gold or gold/silver) so the answer is 50%? --Dweller (talk) 15:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I can only give an anecdotal answer, but I live in a largely immigrant community (in Canada, where we aren't as different from the US as we would like to think), populated mostly by Indian and Chinese folks. They all claim that the OP's statement is true based on what they learned compared to what their kids are learning now. So, anecdotally, yes. Mingmingla (talk) 16:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

SemanticMantis is right. Actually Indian culture and tradition put more value on math than on other subjects. The average Indian thinks math is smarter than social sciences. This is why average Indian students have pathetic deficiency of critical thinking. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 16:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hehe, the answer to that is clearly 2/3. The question must be meant to catch people in a fallacy. ;) Wnt (to clarify, there are three gold coins you might have pulled, all with equal probability. Two are in a box with a gold coin) (talk) 18:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and I don't get that snub about critical thinking. Mathematics requires people to think things through for themselves. Wnt (talk) 18:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In cases where there is only one right answer, very different skills are needed than in areas where shades of grey must be considered. A master mathematician doesn't always make for a good debater. StuRat (talk) 06:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

@Semantic This is a board Final exam paper which means it is compulsory for students to pass the paper to graduate from school while the percentage students score in the board exam are the basis for entry in BA(bachelor of art) or bsc. but if a student wants to get in a engineering , medical etc college he have to pass a entrance test IIT,AIEE,PMT(which from my personal opinion is way to difficult then board paper) Rahul^{Text me} 16:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And my ques is not specifically on maths but on whole education system including

• bio
• Chemistry
• Physics Rahul^{Text me} 16:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In that biology paper, what the heck is Q.10 driving at? Qs 5 and 7 are also very poorly worded. --Dweller (talk) 17:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

How many subjects do they have to pass in India and in America to graduate? The smaller the number, the more in-depth I'd expect the level of knowledge to be. --Dweller (talk) 17:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

hmm i dont know about USA but in india we have to pass in all subject and if someone is failed in any subject then there is a supplementary exam usually after 1-2 months Rahul^{Text me} 17:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

actually till 10th standard students have to learn all subjects but after 10th standard we have to choose subjects for eg if I pick PCM then i have to study only english/Hindi , physics ,Chem,,maths (no social science , commerce,bio) in 11th and 12th standard Rahul^{Text me} 17:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

So you have to pass in 4 subjects. --Dweller (talk) 17:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

yepp but some school also have an optional subject like (Computer science ,IP , physical education etc )Rahul^{Text me} 17:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Many of the questions are workable even to my badly rusted memories. Some of the terminology seems altogether unfamiliar - the gof and fog thing, for example. I should say, I can't answer this question without knowing what marks the students need to make, what fraction of students actually take this test, and how much cheating is going on. (Alas, at least in the U.S., when you see a teacher giving an unusually difficult test it very likely means that the answers are being distributed to the students ahead of time) Also, modern education - even in the U.S. - has been teaching more and more to the test. Those integrals are either nightmares from hell, or child's play, depending entirely on whether you've seen that particular formula before. The working of the differential equations might be the same way. Still, not to make any mistake about it, I think that twelfth grade students working any differential equation is pretty impressive compared to the U.S. norm! At least in the past, even calculus was pretty uncommon for them. Wnt (talk) 18:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The gof and fog thing is just badly typeset - it should say $g\circ f$ and $f\circ g$ (it's composition of functions). --Tango (talk) 01:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, on the biology test, it asks for "the two species of filiarial worms causing filariasis". But our article Filariasis names six. :) Wnt (talk) 18:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The maths paper is roughly A Level standard in the UK. Most 18 year olds choose not to take maths at A Level. They would have only the GCSE they took at 16, and the grade C that is regarded as the standard pass at GCSE is a lot easier than that paper. In France, on the other hand, all young people continuing their education to 18 (which is the vast majority), take maths, and most of them have to do at least a bit of calculus. Even so, I think many French students wouldn't do well in a maths paper like this one. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That's more advanced that A-level Mathematics (the basis calculus stuff is all in A-level Mathematics, and maybe some of the trig, but I don't think matrices are even mentioned). You could answer a reasonable amount of it with A-level Further Mathematics, though (so that's restricting it to just people that have chosen to really concentrate on maths - students studying Further Maths typically do 4 A-levels, so you are choosing to spend half your time from age 16 to 18 on maths). There are some things in there that I didn't really cover until first year at university (although that's more just a matter of choosing what to put on the syllabus rather than difficulty). As mentioned above, it's a little difficult to judge the difficulty without knowing what kind of percentage you should be getting and without knowing what else was on the syllabus that happened not to come up in that exam. If the exam pretty much covered everything, so you could prepare on those topics and practice those types of questions, I would expect an A-grade A-level Further Maths student to be able to get 70-80% on that paper. If it was a much broader syllabus, then that could significantly lower the mark. The vast majority of UK students wouldn't even think about taking Further Maths, though. --Tango (talk) 01:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but on the other hand this paper has no mechanics, and only one very basic question about statistics, which made up a large part of my maths classes from 16-18. So although a British student wouldn't be able to answer the matrix questions on the Indian exam, an Indian student would be similarly stumped by questions about, say, normal distributions on the A-level paper. 59.108.42.46 (talk) 03:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm a high school senior in America, and most of those problems look doable. --108.227.29.65 (talk) 23:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Are these same high standards held to for students in the poorest parts of India ? If so, I'd say the expectations for math and science are higher in India, whereas a "well-rounded student" is the goal in the US. (And with childhood obesity, our students are getting more well-rounded every day. :-) ). StuRat (talk) 06:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

These things are extremely difficult to compare given that different education systems focus on different areas of maths. I have heard anecdotally that British maths/science/engineering departments have a little difficulty with some students educated in China, who arrive with very high-level knowledge of classical geometry (though why their schools would consider that a good area to concentrate on, I'm not sure) but only a very shaky understanding of basic calculus. There have been some attempts to objectively compare educational attainment in different countries, like PISA, which doesn't cover India but ranked the US as about average for maths attainment of 15-year-olds in 2009. Of course, in many countries it is fashionable to believe that educational standards have been slipping behind those in other countries, and this is helped along by silly cherry-picked comparisons in the media like this one. 130.88.99.231 (talk) 12:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

@stu hmm yeah its a standard paper for the whole country as the paper is supplied by CBSE one day before the exam to schools so every school which is affiliated to CBSE(60-70%) have the same paper.117.224.183.128 (talk) 13:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Australian poet John Millet

My article should've been title simply "John Millett" instead of the "Australian poet John Millett". I've been having a difficult time making this simple change. I tried a redirect but the article went to John D Millett. I need to make this simple change because wiki searchers would be able to find the poet "John Millett" I'm sorry for being a klutz for not being able to do this simple task. Pjt48 (talk) 16:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I believe if a wikipedia article name were ever changed, it would break the whole Internet, or at least the part served by Google and Bing. This is like changing the TCP/IP protocol - you just can't do it. I propose that you explain the situation to John Millet, and kindly ask that he start calling himself "Australian poet John Millett". just kidding: bing wouldnt find the article either way. but for google, all the above applies, for sure. --188.6.76.0 (talk) 18:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Now for a helpful answer: To change the title of an article, just use the "Move page" button under the Page tab. I've moved it to John Millett (poet) for you. I've also made some changes to the text to make it more encyclopedic, add some categories, remove some unnecessary words etc. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've also added a hatnote to John D. Millett, the redirect target of John Millet. The other alternatives are to move the above article to John Millet and put a hatnote for the D guy or turn John Millet into a disambig (discouraged for 2 pages but sometimes used when we can't decide which one should be the primary topic, e.g. Bill O'Reilly). BTW it's better to ask for help using wikipedia at WP:Help desk Nil Einne (talk) 23:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It helps - a lot - in these sorts of issues to be clear on exactly how the subject's surname is spelt: in this case, whether it's Millet (one t) or Millett (two t's). This person seems to have 2 t's. The OP gave him only one t in the header, but the full compliment of t's in the question itself. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 00:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why it's such a big deal whether I copied and pasted the wrong variant from someone else's question (which was in the wrong place), concerning some Australian poet I've never heard of and don't particularly care about (poetry is not my thing). Particularly when the important action, adding the hatnote to the redirect target (of the correctly spelled name) so people looking for the poet have a fair chance of finding him if they aren't using an external search engine, was copied and pasted with the correct spelling and therefore had the desired effect. Would it be better in future, if I do not add such hatnotes, so people are unable to find an article they may be interested in, on someone I personally don't care about and am unlikely to ever care about? In case when noting I have done so, I happen to copy and paste the wrong variant used in the original question (or perhaps miss one character at the end) and therefore cause some alleged confusion over a redlinked non redirect (at the time), even if simple logic would have suggested that I actually meant the correctly spelled name which is and was a redirect to the other person with the same (including spelling) first and last name but who apparently normally includes a middle initial, rather then the redlinked non redirect. In any event, John Millet is now also a redirect to John D. Millett, as of writing this reply (i.e. it was still a redlink until a few minutes ago). I suggest John Millet follows whatever happens to John Millett unless and until we get an article on someone actually called John Millet. Incidentally, after fixing some archiving issues at Talk:Bill O'Reilly (political commentator), I came back here and happened to noticed the red link and had planned to correct it (but obviously did not do so after finding the reply). But even so, I guess the 1-2 hours of possible confusion over this redlinked non redirect when noting what I had, wasn't worth people actually being able to find what they're looking for. P.S. Of course if it did happen the poet was John Millet and the university guy John (D.) Millett, then the correct cause of action would almost definitely have been to move John Millett (Australian poet) to John Millet. Then perhaps add a hat note with some variant of Template:Distinguish to each article. Nil Einne (talk) 00:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that seems somewhat of an over-reaction. My comment was aimed mainly at the OP, if anyone. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Rule of the shorter term

• Does the rule of the shorter term recognize copyrights falling out of protection if it was only for failure to perform copyright formalities in the host country?
• Does the rule of the shorter term recognize copyrights falling out of protection due to other non-duration factors like works created by the US government?
• What is the minimum protection usually afforded under rule of the shorter term in most countries?

Magog the Ogre (talk) 16:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you should ask in an area specifically devoted to copyright discussions, such as commons:Commons:Village pump/Copyright... AnonMoos (talk) 14:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Calories and kcal

People talk about "250 calories" and whatnot, but when I look at food products, they tend to say "kcal". Does this mean "kilo calories"? If so, they really mean "250,000 calories" when they say "250 calories", no? Or am I confused? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 17:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Not exactly a humanities question, but the explanation is found in the calorie article. Favonian (talk) 17:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

the short of it is almost anytime anyone talks about calories, they should say Calories instead (capital c). kcal avoids this confusion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.6.76.0 (talk) 18:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't get an answer... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 18:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

THe answer is simple. When people talking about calories, they don't - you either mishear "This burger is 300 calories" when they really said "This burger is 300 Calories" (note capiltalizaiton) or they make the mistake of saying the former when they mean the latter. when people say calories, they MEAN TO SAY Calories. and a Calorie is a kcalorie. Nobody ever MEANS to say calories. THey always MEAN to say Calories. --188.6.76.0 (talk) 18:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The real solution is to use the metric units of joules and kilojoules, where nobody would dream of leaving off the "kilo-" prefix. HiLo48 (talk) 19:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Do dieters in fully-metric countries actually talk about joules instead of calories? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC

Never heard any dieter anywhere speaking in terms of joules. Just google joules diet and see that scientists speak in terms of joules. XPPaul (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Australians generally talk about kilojoules rather than calories these days. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Just to add another data point, I have in front of me here a pack of Chinese (a metric country) instant noodles and the unit is kilojoules. Everything else here in Canada (another metric country) seems to be in Calories. 99.245.35.136 (talk) 02:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How many Kilojoules in a Calorie, or vice versa? And not to be ironically confused with Jewel (supermarket). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

According to our food energy article it's "One food calorie is equal to 4.184 kilojoules." I'm actually thankful it's just 3 units for measuring food energy; it could've been much worst[11].99.245.35.136 (talk) 03:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Does that mean that one Calorie is equivalent to 4.184 megajoules?. I see that it doesn't, I have just read the a "food calorie" is a "Calorie". -- Q Chris (talk) 13:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

There are two units of energy with the same name, the "calorie" (lowercase c, used in science, although not used very often any more since everything is metric now) and the "Calorie" (uppercase c, used in food, sometimes called a "food Calorie"). There are 1,000 calories in a Calorie, so a Calorie is the same as a kilocalorie, which is abbreviated kcal. It is ridiculously confusing! --Tango (talk) 22:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

What is "calorie"? and what is "Calorie"? answered before i posted. 203.112.82.2 (talk) 01:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's very very simple really. There are two types of "calories".

• Big calorie which is known as Calorie
• Small calorie which is known as calorie

To avoid confusion always use kilocalorie which is known as kcal. 1 kcal is 1000 calories is 1 Calorie. Simple!!! 202.177.218.59 (talk) 02:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 22

How good are we to spot intentions of others?

Is there any reasonable study about that? Across evolution it was certainly a huge advantage to be more precise, so you wouldn't end up killing friends or letting enemies come to close to you. XPPaul (talk) 00:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a very vague question. How would you measure it? Really, you need to compare against someone else, but you seem to be asking about the human race as a whole. There have been all sorts of studies into how well people can spot a lie (usually comparing different groups of people, eg. law enforcement versus the general public). I expect you could find them with a quick Google search. --Tango (talk) 01:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I was exactly thinking in a similar study to your suggestion, but comparing honest smiles to fake smiles. Apparently people in the autism spectrum disorder are not able to discern very well between the two types. Anyway, I don't know exactly how would I measure it, but some sort of multimedia followed by questions could be an option. Stranger studies have been performed in the field of psychology. XPPaul (talk) 01:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Please define spot. Refer to Epistemology for more details. 202.177.218.59 (talk) 02:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Best Native American Tribe to Live in

I am no expert on Native Americans (in North America) but if you were to pick one Native American tribe to live in before the European colonization (1500s-1600s) of North America which tribe would you want to have lived in and why? i.e. which tribe had the highest quality of life for all members, was the most peaceful etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foljiny (talk • contribs) 05:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You'd want all the neighboring tribes to be peaceful, too, or perhaps the tribe could just be isolated by geography, such as on an island. Yes, invasions are still possible by sea, but "good fences make good neighbors" and islands have well-established borders, eliminating many border disputes. A technologically advanced tribe that could presumably repel any attacks would also not be targeted.StuRat (talk)

Being isolated on an island basically means that your technological level is fixed and can lead to resource issues. Personally I don't think isolation is really the way towards happy living. I'd be more worried about famine and malnutrition than violence from neighbors. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

In South America, the Inca Empire was a pretty nice place to be by some metrics: lots of food (the potato meant that your average Inca was much better fed than your average European or Asian at the time), lots of security (once you were a member), nothing to onerous from a religious point of view (compared to Aztec). In North America, we don't know quite enough about the Mound builders, but the fact that they had resources and security means they must have figured out something right (see also Mississippian culture; intensive maize is not as good as the potato, but I'll take it). This reflects my own biases, but I'm a fan of civilization and safety in numbers more than I am tiny groups wondering how many kids will starve in the next bad winter. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The Inca Empire was based off of domination of other tribes. It was a pretty sweet deal if you happened to be an Inca (a small minority), but if you were an average resident of the empire, your entire existence was to serve the Inca (who had somewhat of a God status). Don't like that? Fine, they'll take your entire local community, split them up, and send them to other parts of the Empire to integrate with those who are more loyal. That's one of the more pleasant things that I remember from my studies. I would certainly not want to have lived in the Inca Empire. Falconus^{p t c} 15:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey, if you've got the option to choose, choose the guys who are in charge. Again, they ate better and had better security than probably anybody else around there. I know we're always supposed to pick the societies that correspond with some kind of peaceful, individual existence, but I'll take civilization over the state of nature any day. Anyway I've spent a long time living off the benefits of being in a conquering empire so I can hardly start throwing stones there. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's really difficult to answer this question because we lack much conclusive evidence for most of these societies before contact with Europeans. At the time of contact, I would think that the highest median standard of living may have existed in the most egalitarian societies, which often were not agricultural, such as the Inuit or some of the indigenous peoples of California. The state societies for which we have much evidence, in the Andean region and in Mesoamerica, were rather violent and hierarchical. Marco polo (talk) 16:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Inuit life seems pretty hard to me. A bit cold up there. Hanging out in California isn't so bad, though. Hierarchy doesn't bug me so much. The question about violence is who suffers from it. Again, I'm not trying to hold too different a standard than the one most of us on this here website currently work by and profit under. I'm not much of a hunter-gatherer, personally. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

official language(s) BiH

I'll ask this here rather than at the language desk because it's a matter of law rather than linguistics.

What is/are the official language(s) of Bosnia and Herzegovina? (At the federal level, not for the FBiH or RS.) The BiH constitution does not specify an official language. The Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistcs (2006) cites a language law of 1993 which says there is one, which goes by three names; the CIA factbook says there are two, Croatian and Bosnian, which can't possibly be correct; a couple sources say three (Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian), but go into so little detail that they could simply be parroting someone else or repeating the three names in the language law without determining whether they are official as separate languages or as the same language.

This is a matter of what we enter in the 'official language' cell of the country info box. We've been having an argument on the talk page, but no-one has really compelling evidence. — kwami (talk) 08:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I took the liberty of looking at the website for their embassy to the US, as these websites generally have information like that, and it does not list 'official' languages, as such, just 'languages', which are Bosnian, Croation, and Serbian, possibly because the constitution does not specify an official language, as you say. Remember, Serbo-Croatian was originally considered one language, until the wars in the former Yugoslavia. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The right thing to do is to make sure that the info box shows "Languages" and not "Official languages", then list Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian in alphabetical order. (Even though the differences among these three "languages" as spoken by natives of any given place in that country are smaller than the differences among the versions of English spoken by natives of any big city in the United States or UK.) Marco polo (talk) 16:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How does the Hong Kong government deal with asylum seekers such like Falun Gong practitioners and and others?

--Inspector (talk) 13:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC) !

Check Falun Gong in Hong Kong, (it rhymes!)and there are further links in the article. XPPaul (talk) 14:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Employer sponsored health care and age

If an employer in the US pays for the health care of all of his employees, and intends to do so for all new employees, does he has to pay more for older employees? Or is there any sort of deal for companies, where they get all covered for a fixed amount? The first case could lead to discrimination against older employees, the second could be a disadvantage for insurance companies when a company has many old employees. XPPaul (talk) 14:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

US employers that offer insurance have group insurance plans, so premiums do not vary based on an employee's age or other characteristics. Insurers have structured these plans to more or less guarantee them a profit. What I don't know is whether insurers require companies to submit demographic information about their employees that would be a basis for charging different premiums to companies based on their demographic profiles. Marco polo (talk) 16:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How would the company get these demographic profiles?99.245.35.136 (talk) 17:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, I don't know whether this is done, but considering the scale of bureaucracy involved in US healthcare, I wouldn't be surprised if it were. The insurer could conceivably require a company applying for a group insurance policy to provide information on the ages, genders, rates of absenteeism, and perhaps other variables of its staff. The insurer might also offer different base premiums for companies in different sectors, based on occupational safety by sector or actuarial calculations about correlations between things like median level of education in a given sector and rates of cardiovascular disease, and so on. Marco polo (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I saw a video once about the history of Atari in which one of the head guys said they got ridiculously low health insurance rates because their staff was so young. The insurer paid for its judgement when many of the employees got braces! -- Mwalcoff (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I never knew how to end an e-mail conversation.

If I don't send a final "thanks" or something, I feel rude. But if I do, I feel annoying. I never know if people expect a final letter to me, and if they get hurt/sad if I don't respond to their last message. But if it goes on forever, it never stops... obviously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 16:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If they ask for information, you should answer something, if they offered you something, a short thank you should be enough. XPPaul (talk) 16:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The 'thanks' isn't so much of a sign of appreciation than it is just an indication of the end of the message. It's meaningless. I use 'thanks' as a closer, and I'm pretty sure all my correspondents recognize it as such. Mingmingla (talk) 18:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Date of this 17th century map of Siam?

Shortcuts created in the Chao Phraya

Background: Ko Kret is an island on the Chao Phraya River in Thailand. According to most sources, it was created when a shortcut canal was dug to bypass a meander in the river in 1721–1722 (the topmost loop in the image to the right). A quick search for English-language sources reveals this page at ayutthaya-history.com which gives the year as 1722 and cites Van Beeck, Steve (1995). The Chao Phya, River in Transition. Oxford University Press. pp. 40–41. I don't have access to the book, but most online mentions in Thai give 2264 in the Buddhist Era which is 1721 CE; close enough for me.

The problem: This map from the English edition of Simon de la Loubère's Du Royaume de Siam, published as A new historical relation of the kingdom of Siam, shows Ko Kret with its bypass canal. It is the loop by the settlements labelled Ban tret noi and Ban pac tret noi. (Tret is an older term for kret, which means bypass canal.) The English edition of the book was published in London in 1693, which predates the aforementioned date of the canal's excavation. I couldn't find the map from the original French edition (which was published in 1691); none of the versions I found in Google Books had the page scanned properly.

Question: This means that either the widely-circulated historical fact regarding the date of the canal's construction is incorrect, or that the map in question is actually from a later date than the book. Would anyone like to investigate, or suggest how to approach this? --Paul_012 (talk) 16:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

what's up with the highs in 'queen of the night' aria?

they're way outside the range being sung, no? Is it like falsetto, or what? Do any male roles (baritone, tenor, bass, whatever) have a similar aria sung way outside of the actual range of the part? What is this strange thing. 188.6.76.0 (talk) 18:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)