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July 15

Father Pons' Sanskrit grammar

I've heard that someone named Jean-François Pons wrote a grammar of the Sanskrit language in Latin. Any idea where I can find this (short of a university library)? --Siva 02:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

(Note: Please leave the response on my user page; I'd rather not have to keep checking back to see if my question has been answered.)

If you can't be bothered to check back here for an answer it can't be that important to you. Had it occurred to you that anyone researching an answer would have to check your talk page first to see if it's already been answered? And you haven't even provided a link. I actually doubt you'll find this outside a university or national library (such as the British Library if you are in the UK). Oxford or Cardiff Universities would be good places to start.--Shantavira 13:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"What are you having?"

"My enemy killed."

Why is this ungrammatical? Conversely, why is the parellism in "I'm not stupid, I'm not dispensable, and I'm not going" not awkward?

It's not ungrammatical, it's just very unlikely zeugma. Henry^Flower 11:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be ungrammatical from a Pragmatics point of view? --Kjoonlee 14:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

What about this sentence: I may never find the street I've lost all feeling in my hands and feet may touch the ground but my mind's somewhere north of here.

OK, it's not really a correct sentence, but is this a sort of zeugma, or something else? By the way, this is a line from a song named Somewhere North by Caedmon's Call, if you want to know. Philbert^2.71828 18:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

My enemy killed. Unless I'm missing an alternate definition for kill, the sentence is ungrammatical. Kill is always a transitive verb and therefore always requires an object. It's similar to saying, "The man said." The sentence leaves something to be wanted (i.e. an object) and is incomplete.--El aprendelenguas 20:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Nah. Complete the sentence. "I'm having my enemy killed." It's clearly grammatical in that context. User:Zoe|^(talk) 21:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Transitive verbs do not always require objects. The murderer has killed, and will kill again if we don't catch him!

Besides, in this case "killed" is being used as a past participle, not as a verb. --Ptcamn 21:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, possibly the best examples of zeugma comes from the Flanders and Swann classic, Madeira m'Dear?:

"He said - as he hastened to put out the cat, the wine, his cigar, and the lamps ...",

"She lowered her standards by raising her glass, her courage, her eyes, and his hopes!", and

"When he asked 'What in Heaven...?' she made no reply, up her mind, and a dash for the door."

Grutness...wha? 00:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Killing one's enemy, it should be said, is usually looked upon as uncivil. One ought first to request comment and thereafter to request arbitration. Only after one has availed him/herself of all other dispute resolution processes should he/she have his/her enemy killed/marked for speedy deletion (avoiding, in any event, personal attacks).

OK, grammar lesson time. "One" does not take a pronoun. So that would be "Only after one has availed oneself of all other dispute resolution processes should one have one's enemy killed/marked for speedy deletion (avoiding, in any event, personal attacks)." See, as I've always said, grammar is far more important than mere life or death (apologies to Bill Shankly). A bit like Australian rules football really. JackofOz 04:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Grammar lesson correction time: 'one' and 'oneself' are pronouns. Henry^Flower 15:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

... which is precisely my point, and why they don't need other pronouns to do their dirty work for them.  :--) JackofOz 04:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

IPA sign for length

Until some point, most wiki articles used [:]. Now some are changed to a sign which is apparently supposed to look slightly different (I had never realized that it was supposed to be different at all). Unfortunately, my browser, which shows all or nearly all the other IPA symbols, refuses to show me this "corrected" length sign. Does anyone else have the same problem and do you think that that substitution is necessary?--194.145.161.227 18:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It should not be a colon, it should be U+02D0 MODIFIER LETTER TRIANGULAR COLON (ː). If your font doesn't have that character, it doesn't fully support IPA. —Keenan Pepper 18:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the IPA artilce says that Lucida Sans Unicode supports IPA, and I have it, but it doesn't display the triangular colon. Never mind, I guess I should try to download something else. --194.145.161.227 18:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone else confirm that Lucida Sans Unicode lacks this character? If so, the colon kludge may be necessary. —Keenan Pepper 19:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I can confirm that Lucida Sans Unicode has this character. User:Angr 19:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it does, I just checked it on Microsoft Word. I guess this is turning into a question about "how to use Internet Explorer" rather than linguistics. Thanks for the info, everybody! --194.145.161.227 19:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the answer is to use a real browser. User:Angr 21:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it now seems that Lucida Sans Unicode is part of the problem, after all. When I downloaded Charis (SIL) and set it as my default font for Latin-based alphabets, it showed the triangular colon alright, in Internet Explorer. However, Lucida Sans Unicode just drops some signs in my Internet Explorer (not in Microsoft Word, though). I don't know whether I'm the only one to have this problem. --194.145.161.227 21:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I consciously use the colon in IPA, since there is no ambiguity in doing so. It is a little bit pedantic to insist on this triangular thingy, but of course it is more correct to use it. dab (ᛏ) 18:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I too always use the colon instead of the triangular thingy, except on Wikipedia, where I use the triangular thingy because I know if I don't, someone will come along and correct it for me. User:Angr 16:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

what is english eqivient of "Pelingas" a Fish in Crimean language

In a little town on the Black Sea in Crimea,Ukraine I ate a fish at dinner. Asked the server what is name of this fish and she replied it was a "PELINGAS". She showed me the whole fish and it looked like it weighed about 3-4 pounds, looked like maybe like a small sea bass in shape and we only ate only a small pert of that fish. Chef had cut it up into smaller pieces. Cannot find an eqivalent type of fish in English language. Can anyone help??? I've never logged to wikipedia & don't know how. I can provide my e-mail address if someone can help. Thx. Don Kissil

It's apparently the Bulgarian and Turkish name for a certain type of mullet, Mugil soiuy. (I suspect that if those two languages use the same name, it's common elsewhere around the Black Sea as well). See FishBase entry. Shimgray | talk | 19:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

And by the way, there's no Crimean language. Most people in Crimea speak Russian. --Ornil 21:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is a Crimean language. --Ptcamn 23:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It's referred to as a Tatar language normally, and as a Crimean Tatar language if you need to be precise, but I've never heard it referred to as a Crimean language. One reason being that the Tatars are now a small minority in the Crimea. --Ornil 18:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

French vowels

Hello, everyone! I've been trying to make a correspondence between the graphemes and phonemes for French vowels. Can anyone offer some general rules? For example, I know that <ou> is usually /u/ as in vous. I'm looking for similar correspondences for /y/, /ø/, and /œ/. French orthography, French alphabet, and French phonology didn't have what I'm looking for. I appreciate any help you can give. Thanks!--El aprendelenguas 21:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

How about this Omniglot page on French? --Chris S. 22:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Chris. Just what I was looking for. :) --El aprendelenguas 22:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Leaning languages

Hi could anyone recommend a useful language that I could try to start leaning, My first language is English and i enjoyed learning German, but I didn't enjoy French and eventually gave it up. with this in mind which language would be best to learn. Ken 21:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, what did you like/not like about these languages? Perhaps it was the way it was taught? The way it was pronounced? The grammar? The culture? It depends on how you answer.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 21:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Only you can answer this, I guess. Do you want to learn a language because of the career you're in? Because you travel to a particular place and the culture interests you a lot? Just for fun? --Chris S. 21:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your answers, I probably disliked the sound of French, it was hard to speak or listen two, German seemed much more structured. I would like to learn another language as i enjoyed German and think its important to be able to communicate in one or more languages, i would like to work abroad at some stage also

I greatly enjoyed learning Russian (and if you prefer the sound of German to French, it might suit you, too). Each language has a different feel, though, so it's not an easy question to answer. FWIW, I've tried to pick up some of each of several different language groups, since it's amazing how much of one language you can pick up by knowing its close relations (with your knowledge of English and German you could probably make a fair stab at getting at least the gist of written Dutch, for instance). Grutness...wha? 00:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I also endorse Russian. I hated French when I studied it, but loved (and still love) Russian. If you liked the structure of German, I'm sure you'd like Russian, which is even more structured in some ways (cases), and as a result freer in others (word order). Besides, maybe it's just my personal interests, but there's a lot more Russian literature that I'm interested in reading than there is in Spanish, say, or French. Tesseran 05:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Spanish is a relatively easy language and very widely spoken, both in Spain and the Americas. Highly recommendable. Since you're pretty good at German, Dutch would be rather easier, though much less useful. Moving away from European languages, you could strike out in a new direction: Japanese isn't particularly hard (ignoring those bothersome kanji) and would let you watch lots of cool movies without subtitles, though here in the US at least it seems to make people think you're a serious otaku. Mandarin is hugely common and China is up and coming, to put it mildly. I don't think it's as easy as Japanese though. So lots of choices. --George 02:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

As for the working abroad bit, the important languages of the world, apart from English, are Chinese, Spanish, Russian and Arabic. To a lesser degree German and French, but you already covered those. And economically there is Japanese. I love the sound of Russian, but its importance has somewhat faded since the 'counterrevolution'. :) Still, there is a lot of old but important scientific literature that needs translating into English. It used to constitute one third of the world's scientific literature, but was written in Russian, so not a lot of people outside Russia have been able to read it - there might be some gems there. The same goes for still older Arabic texts, or so someone said here a while ago. Apparently some sheikhs are willing to pay good money for translations. DirkvdM 06:57, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

You seem to have missed the second largest language by number of native speakers: Hindi. You also missed the fifth, seventh and eighth largest languages. See List of languages by number of native speakers. Japanese and German come in at eleventh and twelfth.-gadfium 09:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The idea that it's better to learn languages which are spoken by the most people seems very strange to me. I don't care whether there are one billion or two billion Chinese peasants- I've no real desire to talk to any of them. A more useful criterion would be "spoken in the greatest number of places to which I am likely to want to travel". Henry^Flower 09:55, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

True, but since the original question didn't say where they might want to travel to, to list languages in reply without including the ones spoken by the most people, with caveats as appropriate, seems strange too.-gadfium 10:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at this entry from Edward Hasbrouck's blog "The Practical Nomad".--Mathew5000 22:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I am getting a degree in Foreign Language from my college and they are telling me Spanish, French, Japanese, and English are where all the money is nowadays. Also they say Mandarin is starting to become in-damand; Russian always comes looks good on a resumé if you are trying to get a job at the CIA or the like.

German question

If I, a heterosexual male, say "meine Freundin," does that necessarily imply a romantic relationship? How do I say "my female friend" without implying "girlfriend"? Thanks, TacoDeposit 22:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't necessarily imply a romantic relationship, but it's ambiguous and most people will probably lean towards that interpretation. The unambiguous (but kind of awkward) way to put it is eine Freundin von mir. I even use this construction when referring to male friends (with the gender changed, of course), unless it is clear from context that I am referring to one specific male friend of mine who has been mentioned before. --Rueckk 23:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

As a gay man I've found you can't really say either "meine Freundin" or "mein Freund" if you're not referring to a romatic relationship. If I call someone "meine Freundin" people reply, "You have a girlfriend? But you're gay!" If I call someone "mein Freund" they say, "Oh, you have a boyfriend? We've never met him!" It's much better to just say "ein(e) Freund(in) von mir" the first time, say what the person's name is, and thereafter refer to them by name. User:Angr 08:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

So when you refer to male friends with the gender changed, you use 'Freundin'?  :) DirkvdM 07:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess I walked right into that. --Rueckk 13:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I wish sociologists haven't coopted a linguistic term to such an extent that its impossible to use its primary meaning... --Ornil 21:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

it's a recent development, and many older people will still use "Freund/in" in the wider sense primarily. Of course, a couple of decades (two generations) ago, you had either a wife, or a fiancée, or a concubine, and the status of (romantic) "Freundin" was extremely stigmatized. And note that also in English, you will be more likely to introduce someone as "a friend of mine" than as "my friend", not because of romantic implications, but because it would sound as if this was your only friend (which in most cases will not be the intended meaning). In German, the singular came to denote an exclusive (monogamous) relation, while if you say "das sind meine Freunde", no-one will assume that you are not only gay but also polygamous. dab (ᛏ) 18:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I was referring to the word gender, not to the my friend issue. --Ornil 19:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Dab, you're probably right in general. But I would certainly introduce one friend to another by saying, eg. "Bill, this is my friend Harry". I don't think Bill would assume Harry was my only friend. Nor would he assume he's anything more than a friend. Describing Harry this way tells Bill what Harry is to me - he's a friend, rather than my brother or a business partner or whatever else. JackofOz 20:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks all. TacoDeposit 02:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

July 16

Crickets Chirping

In a number of political websites and blogs, I see the phrase "Crickets Chirping" often set off in parenthesis, brackets or quotes. Sometimes it will be phrased as "The Sound of Crickets Chirping" again with parenthesis, brackets or quotes. Can someone tell me the underlying meaning of the phrase and it's origin?

Thanks, George—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.178.168.133 (talk • contribs) .

It's like the sound of silence. You hear no laughing or other kind of reaction - just crickets chirping. --Chris S. 01:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It occurs a lot in cartoons and some films for dramatic effect where a character says something and waits for a response, but all they hear is the sound of crickets chirping. A tumbleweed blowing down an empty street can also be used for similar situations. I am not sure where it originated from, but its use in films and cartoons is probably the most widely known. Road Wizard 01:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

translation website

Is there any website that can translate English into Bengali, Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi or Tamil? Please let me know beacuse I want to become a translator. Thank you.

The reason "beacuse [sic] I want to become a translator" doesn't make sense. If you want to become a translator, you have to speak the language, in which case you would have no use for a machine translation website. —Keenan Pepper 17:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, professional translators use machine translation websites all the time. We just don't leave the translations the way they are when they come out of the machine. When I'm translating a longish German sentence into English, it's much faster for me to do a machine translation first and then clean it up than it is to translate the whole thing "by hand". User:Angr 19:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Depends how good your machine translator is. Translating a text using Babelfish or a similar free tool beforehand doesn't save any time because the translation is so bad. It just increases the probability of overseeing a translation mistake it might.

I find Google translator to be quite good. Sometimes (not often) the translation doesn't even need any cleanup at all; often it needs only minor cleanup. User:Angr 15:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I have never seen any machine translator for Indian languages, sorry, and if there are any, particularly freely available on a website, they are probably crap. Machine translators have enough trouble translating similar languages. Junesun 14:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why a translation into Hindi (or any other IE language) would be theoretically any more difficult than an English-Russian translation, which is provided by BabelFish. But I agree that they seem not to exist. Bhumiya (said/done) 14:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Band names, sports teams, etc -- plural or singular?

Which is correct: "Pink Floyd are a band" or "Dream Theater is a band?" I have a hunch they're both correct because both are heavily used on wikipedia, but is the former a British style and the latter an American style? This is just my guess because I'm American and "Pink Floyd are a band" sounds really odd to me. I've just never heard this discussed before in comparisons of English dialects. --Loudsox 19:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

See American and British English differences#Singular and plural for nouns. Conscious 20:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for. --Loudsox 21:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Pink Floyd was a band. Tesseran 06:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

July 17

Felipe, Phillipines and Filipinos

If the Phillipines were named after King Philip II of Spain, and the Spanish equivalent of Philip is Felipe, why are Filipinos not known as Felipinos? JackofOz 00:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Because they were named after him in Latin, not Spanish. By the way, that's "Philippines", from Greek phil- "love" and hipp- "horse", with a Latin suffix... AnonMoos 01:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course. Thanks for setting me straight (so to speak). JackofOz 01:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

In the Philippines' infancy, the name was written in a variety of ways. Felipinas was one of them as well as Philipinas and others (like Ffilipinas). Somewhere along time way, Filipinas was chosen caught on. And the inhabitants became known as Filipino. To make matters more confusing, the /f/ sound is not found in the vast majority of Philippine languages, so Filipino and Filipinas become Pilipino and Pilipinas. The Spaniards should have stuck with the letter "L" or "M" or something to end all this confusion. hah. I mean, I cringe when someone writes Philippino. ;-) --Chris S. 01:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeh, me too. I could spend 24/7 cringing, what with the things that pass for spelling these days. So now I just shrug, sigh, sometimes I weep for a few moments, and move on. It keeps my blood pressure within reasonable limits. :--) JackofOz 02:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Learning a dialect/accent

We consider it normal to learn and speak another language, but strange and dishonest to employ a different dialect or regional pronunciation. I've always wondered why this is the case, since it would certainly be easier to learn a new accent than an entirely new language, and it might come in handy for preventing misunderstandings. But if you try it, you'd be accused of "faking" or "affecting" an accent. Is this attitude universal across all languages with multiple distinct varieties? Is it always considered duplicitous to affect an accent, or is it in some situations or cultures regarded as a natural part of acculturation? Bhumiya (said/done) 01:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it depend on their circumstances? If a German (say) was living with an English family in order to get hands-on experience with the language, and the family happpened to be Cockneys, it would be quite natural for the German to copy that accent rather than the one used by the Queen (say). I've never heard of it being considered dishonest to do that. JackofOz 01:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

People do sometimes consider it dishonest to speak another language: see for example the Spanish controversy in the U.S.

I'm afraid I don't follow you. Do you mean that Spanish-speakers consider it dishonest to speak English, or vice versa? Bhumiya (said/done) 01:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, it does depend on context. British and Australian singers often put on American accents while singing, which is considered normal, but it would be weird if they did it in regular speech. --Ptcamn 01:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

But why is it considered so peculiar for someone to adopt a new pronunciation and set of idioms within his own language? It is certainly easier for an American than a German to "learn Cockney", yet it is less acceptable. My question is why? Some dialects are so divergent as to render communication difficult. Consider a hard-core Geordie trying to carry on a conversation with a hard-core Philadelphian. Sure, they could get through to each other, but they couldn't have a relaxed, natural conversation. There'd be a gap between them, a gap narrower than that between a German and an Englishman, but apparently unbridgeable. It's interesting. English is so vast that it sometimes exhibits features of a dialect continuum. It makes me wonder if English might have split, had things gone differently a few centuries ago. Bhumiya (said/done) 01:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think this goes to show that people consider accent to be a part of one's identity, and if they deviate from that, then they're seen as not being true to theirselves, not "keepin' it real." We know the reasons why someone would speak another language, but for what reason would someone want to speak another accent/dialect if they are already understood in their native accent/dialect? --Chris S. 01:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

To be better understood, perhaps. To communicate better, more naturally and casually, with the people one meets. To get one's point across. To break down the perception that one is an outsider. Really, the very same reasons one learns another language—just on a different scale. Bhumiya (said/done) 01:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I for one (a native of U.S.A.) have lived all over this country including in New York and Hawaii. I moved to Hawaii as an adult and found it necessary to learn the Hawaiian style "pidgen" of the mid 1980s as it was spoken in the main city of Honolulu and around Waikiki. If I didn't speak pidgen, people would often ignore me or act like I wasn't speaking English. There were warnings about this in a couple of the guide books I read just before and just after I arrived. I also bothered to become familiar with the Hawaiian words and their pronounciations. I never had a negative reaction from any of the "kamainas" (locals for those who don't know).

Also, living in Texas and in the American Southeast, it sometimes becomes necessary, to put on an accent to get your point across. I've found people to be offended sometimes by a newscaster midwest accent because they think I think I'm better than they are. Just one person's experience with this.--75.20.177.181 02:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• Fashion;in the UK white people talking ghetto is hilarious and sad at the same time.hotclaws**==(81.134.77.56 04:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC))

I don't know..if somebody learns a language "naturally" - that is, without using a course of some kind, through native speakers, they will paritally pick up the accent of those they learn the language from, although that will be secondary to the accent derived from their native tongue. -Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 05:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it's obnoxious when people adopt another group's dialect/mannerisms as a sort of fashion statement, but would it be objectionable to adopt those same features for the purpose of communication? Bhumiya (said/done) 06:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the premise is wrong. People do learn a second dialect, and quite often and then switch in and out of it. Most middle class African Americans speak both African American Vernacular English and some more standard variety, sometimes although not always with some AAVE features. Non African Americans can be surprised to hear African Americans they know switch into AAVE when speaking to other AAE speakers. In Italy and German speaking regions, non-standard dialect speakers almost always learn the standard. There is actually a bit of research on this phenomenon, one example is a book by Ben Rampton called Crosssing: Language and Ethnicity among Adolescents (1995 Longman) that deals with this phenomenon. mnewmanqc

I would guess that the answer to this lies in the purpose. When you learn a new language, it's practical; it's the only way to understand and be understood. When you try to learn a dialect, it's often despite already being understood and able to understand. It also may be offensive to some because it's seen as an attempt to change who you are. An American English-speaker learning Chinese is just becoming a bilingual American English-speaker, whereas an American English-speaker learning British English is trying to become a British English-speaker. In my experience, using non-native idioms is generally not frowned upon -- in the American Midwest, you have to say "pop" instead of "soda" to be understood. Again it's a question of purpose: clarity or deceit. That's my idea, but there are obvious problems with it. Thank you for a very stimulating question. - Registrar

I agree. Another possibility is that imitating an accent may be seen as parody or "making fun" of that group, especially if the accent is overdone. Speaking another language isn't seen as parody, however, unless also accompanied by an absurd accent. StuRat 00:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Verb class

Many languages organize nouns into noun classes, often arbitrarily, sometimes according to a comprehensible pattern. Is there any language that organizes verbs into classes? Bhumiya (said/done) 02:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... I never heard of the term, but there are verbs belonging to different conjugation paradigms. Like in English and other Germanic languages there are weak and strong verbs. In Spanish, there are -ar, -er, and -ir verbs in addition to irregular verbs like stem-changing ones. In Tagalog, there are -um-, mag-, -in, an, i-, etc. --Chris S. 13:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

In Hebrew, there are different classes (or "binyanim) which verbs can be in. Generally, they have different meanings (some are intensive, one is reflexive). Mo-Al 19:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you. That's just the sort of thing I was looking for. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I know you're interested in Czech, so you may know that Czech verbs come in one of two aspects. For example, kupovat and koupit both mean "to shop," but the first is imperfective, while the second is perfective. It happens that in this case, the difference is in the verb endings -- kupovat is conjugated as an -ovat verb and koupit as an -it verb. But that's not always the case. Often, the perfective version is indicated by the use of a preposition as a prefix (for example, dělat vs. udělat). So it's not like quite like gender in nouns, since the declension of, say, a feminine noun ending in "a" almost always runs according to a consistent pattern. -- Mwalcoff 03:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

This is a little different from gender, though, because the difference can be significant to meaning, rather than just syntax. For example, in Russian (which I believe is pretty close to Czech in this), an imperfective verb conjugated in the present tense has present meaning---я пью чай, ya p'yu chai, "I'm drinking tea"---while a perfective verb conjugated in the present tense has future meaning---я выпью чай, ya vyp'yu chai, "I'll drink all the tea". I can't think of an example where it really matters to the meaning of the sentence what gender a word has.

A less-interesting distinction usually found in Russian-as-a-foreign-language classes is between two classes of conjugation patterns. This separates verbs into those that conjugate like читать, chitat' , and those that conjugate like говорить, govorit' , plus all the myriad exceptions. This is approximately equivalent to the distinction between -ar, -er, and -ir verbs in Spanish. Tesseran 07:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Psych

Does anyone know how to get hold of the lyrics to the Psych theme song, and possibly its credits? Black Carrot 04:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The Psych IMDb page lists Adam Cohen as the composer, and no soundtrack listing, so it might be worth a try to contact his agent or post a BB thread to the Psych or Adam Cohen IMDb page. As to the lyrics, I tried googling but there was too much junk, not fruitful. Buuuuttt... You might also try the Psych network page.--Anchoress 00:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The theme song is performed by The Friendly Indians.

To introduce someone...

Which expression is correct:

• Born in Changzhou in 1983, Yao Ziyuan attended Fudan University in 2003.
• Having been born in Changzhou in 1983, Yao...
• Had been born in Changzhou in 1983, ...
• others

Thank you. Yao Ziyuan 07:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The first one. Henry^Flower 07:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The second one also looks technically correct, though it's a mite awkward. Deltabeignet 08:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Those awkward mites might get more confident after they suck enough blood. :-) StuRat 00:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The first one is correct - the second one also is if there is some kind of causation implied. For instance, if you are implying that Wao Ziyuan attended Fudan University because he was born in Changzhou (but would have attended another university had he been born elsewhere), then that would be the correct expression. The third one is wrong in all circumatances. You could also say "Yao Ziyuan was born in Changzhou in 1983, and attended...". Grutness...wha? 09:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The second one could also mean that Yao himself decided to be born in Changzhou in 1983, though I don't suppose that's likely. Henry^Flower 14:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yok in Thai

I just created a stub on the Sai Yok waterfall of Thailand. The Amphoe Sai Yok article calls it by that name, but some tourist brochures from the area also call it "Sai Yok Noi" and "Sai Yok Noi waterfall." Does anyone know if perhaps Yok means waterfall in Thai? Thanks. - Draeco 10:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

No, "waterfall" is Nam Tok (น้ำตก). The "Noi" (น้อย) simply means "small", because there are two waterfalls named "Sai Yok" - one called Sai Yok Yai , another Sai Yok Noi. Yai ใหญ่ means large. [1]. If you can read Thai letters a great online dictionary is http://dict.longdo.org. BTW: IMHO that article might be better part of an article on the Sai Yok National Park. andy 16:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You're probably right, but I don't know enough (anything) about the Park to start an article. I'll move the article to Sai Yok Noi to disambiguate. Thanks for the help. - Draeco 16:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if Sai Yok actually means anything. Sai can be ficus - a kind of tree - which would make some sense, but yok doesn't appear in my dictionary (the same spelling can mean yoga - a bond - but the pronunciation is different). Henry^Flower 19:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Korean translation for the word name

°Translate please, the word for name in Korean, as in What is your name?

It's 이름 ireum. --Chris S. 13:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

이름 is informal. If you want to be formal you have to use 성명 seongmyeong, and if you want to be polite you have to use 성함 seongham. --Kjoonlee 13:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Uranus breaks the "Roman mythical name" tradition?

Greek_equivalency_in_mythology gives a list of Greek gods and their Roman counterparts. Saturnus is the Roman version of Cronus, Mars of Ares,....

But Uranus is not Roman but the original Greek name. Why did they break the tradition?

Thank you.

Evilbu 14:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It's worth remembering that the "tradition" was a very ancient thing at that point... only the major planets, known since antiquity, had Roman names. It makes more sense if you think of it in terms of the other astronomical discoveries since then - the four Galilean satellites discovered in 1610 all had Greek names, and the moons of Saturn discovered by Cassini and Herschel all had the names of Greek titans. In effect, every solar-system body which had been given a name in recorded history was Greek-originating, and those where the naming was lost to time were Roman. The Roman-name tradition for planets essentially only started again in 1801 with Ceres, and then continued with Neptune. Shimgray | talk | 14:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The article you linked to doesn't exist, but as a general matter, the early Latin/Roman gods had attributes and functions, and proper rituals and cermemonies by which they were traditionally worshipped, but they didn't usually have elaborate stories and cycles of myths (like the Greek gods did) -- so the equivalence between Greek and Roman gods was originally actually somewhat approximate. Maybe there was not a native Roman divinity closely corresponding to Ouranos. AnonMoos 14:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There apparently was, Caelus (though he doesn't map perfectly), but Bode just chose the Latinised form of the Greek name... Shimgray | talk | 14:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the article Evilbu was trying to link to was Roman/Greek equivalency in mythology. Road Wizard 14:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Uranus is the father of Cronus (Saturn) who is the father of Zeus (Jupiter). I don't know if this is just coincidental or if the namer of Uranus was going for a pattern. --Cam 14:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that Uranus is the Latinised form of a Greek name that would have been something like Ouranos. However, as previously stated, Caelus was also used in Latin.--Grammatical error 16:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Apart from naming consistency, Ouranos would have been a far better spelling (and pronunciation) in English. The unavoidable associations with urine and anus are unfortunate, to say the least. JackofOz 20:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Typical. Everyone else had been carefully avoiding them... Henry^Flower 22:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

That's what makes me so special, unique and loveable, Henry. (Tagishsimon, you're relieved of your duties as Official Spokesperson for the Reference Desk). :--) JackofOz 00:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Spanish translation

I am tasked with writing some speech recognition code for a call center application, and although we received very few calls from people speaking Spanish, they want me to include that as well. Since the input is primarily numbers and single words, I'm doing fairly well, however I need to figure out what a caller would say instead of "dash" or "hyphen" when entering a number such as "123-87". --LarryMac 15:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Guión (be careful, the "u" isn't pronounced in this case) --RiseRover|^talk 20:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I was confused by running that back through Google's tool and ending up with "script." The other online tool I usually use turned it back into "hyphen" though, so that's good enough for me. --LarryMac 20:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it also does mean script, or screenplay.--RiseRover|^talk 09:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Icelandic þ and ð

I am trying to get people with interest and resources in phonology to comment on whether the Icelandic dental fricatives (corresponding to þ and ð in writing) are not dental at all but rather alveolar. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Phonetics#Icelandic þ and ð. Any help would be appreciated. Stefán Ingi 18:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Aramaic

I am looking for somewhere I can Get a translation. Hope you can help me it would be muchly appreciated!

God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change

the Courage to change the things I can

and the Wisdom to know the difference

I would like you to translate this into the oldest aramaic text you can find! Thank you so much for your time, It is muchly appreciated! -Niki

-formatted to remove yellow boxes. -LambaJan 21:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't help with the translation, but the full version is here. JackofOz 23:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

If Greek is Aramaic, then here it is: Ο Θεός μου χορηγεί την ηρεμία για να δεχτεί τα πράγματα δεν μπορώ να αλλάξω το θάρρος να αλλάξω τα πράγματα που μπορώ και η φρόνηση να ξέρω τη διαφορά

This is the best I can do, since I don't know what aramaic is. -nickdsub

Aramaic is described here. JackofOz 23:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I can do the Aramaic translation. Which variety of Aramaic do you want? — Gareth Hughes 21:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Use of the word "ecology".

Writers often seem to use the words "ecology" and "environemnt" interchangebly. Please discuss.

Very few competent writers use the word "environemnt". It doesn't go down too well in homework assignments either. JackofOz 00:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The 'please discuss' looked weird, but your second sentence cleared that up. Which left the first sentence, but I get that too now. I must be getting slow (no, not old). DirkvdM 15:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Those writers probably didn't do their homework either. Anyway, see Ecology and Environment. Black Carrot 21:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

July 18

Area between lanes

What is the name for those areas that run along between lanes in a (city) road, with gardens and often flowerbeds and trees? Thanks. --RiseRover|^talk 09:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The term I've heard is median strip, but the article is at central reservation. User:Angr 10:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Cool, thank you.--RiseRover|^talk 11:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

It's often called the meridian in my town.--Anchoress 11:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

In Portland, Oregon, it's called a park.--Shantavira 12:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

And in New Orleans, Louisiana, it's called a neutral ground. (That redirects to a main article that has information about where the term neutral ground came from.) --Tkynerd 13:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

So is that where they put the Indians in the central US? DirkvdM 15:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

It's also called median strip over here, but many Aussies either out of ignorance or apathy (I neither know nor care which) call it a "medium strip". Shades of naked crystal ball gazers. JackofOz 23:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Canadian use is "median", at least amongst my fellow transportation engineers. But a survey shows regional variations throughout the US. --ByeByeBaby 02:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

A strip of land paralleling a thoroughfare, either dividing it or along each side, and either paved or landscaped, but not intended for traffic is a boulevard. The word is today much more commonly used for roads featuring such things, in an exact parallel with the word avenue, which originally was a line of trees - though fewer Avenues retain their trees than Boulevards their dividers. Here in Toronto, anywhere there is a paved area bordering a road or sidewalk on which parking is allowed, it is common to see signage referring to "Boulevard Parking", and if you find a spot that's ambiguously neither road nor sidewalk but that's just big enough for your car, you'll find the summons bears the charge "illegal parking on boulevard". -Sharkford 17:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

roman numeral conversions

could anyone help me out with changing a date 19th july 2003 to roman numerals. i have made it out to be X IX VII MMIII, just not 100% sure if this is correct. thanks

Take out the space between X and IX and you've got it. --Richardrj 12:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

If you really want to use the true Roman calendar, then it would be ante diem XIV Kalendas Augustas 2756 ab urbe condita! ... AnonMoos 13:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

except that 2756 would be written MMDCCLVI :) Grutness...wha? 03:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Square Meal

Is a square meal one that has four sides? --Zemyla^t 11:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

It means a nutritious meal rather than just a snack. So yes, it might well have four sides, in which case it would be doubly square. And if it included toast.... Or could it be a meal that is just not very hip?--Shantavira 12:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Could be food for geometricians. DirkvdM 15:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Or for nudniks.--Anchoress 23:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Probably should add a disclaimer about not giving dietry advice. Don't let a protractor govern your lifestyle. Probably has more to do with square meaning stocky, strong, stout, sturdy, solid often applied to the body and from there to the fuel. Oh no salad for tea. MeltBanana 15:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Or square as in containing all four food groups.--Anchoress 23:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

See this article from Michael Quinion. Bhumiya (said/done) 03:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Man, I love that guy.--Anchoress 04:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Me too. I've learned so much from him over the years. JackofOz 23:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

While that article contains the origin of the original meaning, the more modern meaning is "a healthy meal containing all four food groups (dairy, grains, meat, and fruit/veggies)". Since we no longer use those four food groups in the modern nutritional field, however, that phrase may revert to its original meaning, fade into obscurity, or may continue with the modern meaning, we'll just have to wait and see. StuRat 23:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Accented characters in Windows XP with US keyboard?

On a Macintosh there are easy keyboard shortcuts for the common western European accented characters, for example alt-c for ç or alt-i preceding a letter to put a circumflex on it. Is there any way to make my Dell notebook (running Windows XP) use those same shortcuts? It's too difficult to remember something like alt-0231. --Mathew5000 17:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the easiest thing to do is to install the keyboard layouts you need and switch as necessary. Once you've installed more than one layout (you do this somewhere in the Control Panel or whatever they decided to call it in XP; can't remember specifically where), there should be a little icon in the system tray that lets you click or right-click to switch keyboard layouts. I don't know of a good way to do this with keyboard shortcuts in any version of Windows. --Tkynerd 21:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how to do it in Windows, but I can tell you how to do it in individual MSOffice programs if that's what you're running. Drop me a line on my talk page or email me if you're interested. It's my username @telus.net.--Anchoress 23:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this facility is usually built into the various applications you'll be running. These settings will probably override anything you've set up in Windows anyway. Look in the application help file for keyboard shortcuts. I have so many shortcuts that I never use a mouse when word processing. They are much quicker.--Shantavira 08:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Easier on your wrists too, Shantavira. :-) --Anchoress 06:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Mathew5000, how did you make out? Did you get any info on Firefox?--Anchoress 06:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

if you just need one or two occasionally, you could memorize their keypad codes. Then just use ALT+#### on the numeric keypad. Been around since DOS. There is also the character utility, which is useful for occasional use, and lists the keypad codes.--J Clear 02:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help Anchoress. No, I never figured out an easy way to do this in Firefox. The ALT+#### is not useful to me because I can't remember the codes, and besides, my laptop doesn't have an actual keypad. The way this is handled on the Macintosh OS is so convenient and easy to remember that it's hard to believe Microsoft hasn't stolen that idea and implemented it for Windows. --Mathew5000 09:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• Easy. Just install the French Keyboard Layout. (Control Panel, Regional and Language Options, Languages, Details, Add (select French as language and "United States-International" as keyboard layout). Once this is installed, to use accents, you'll do the following :
• ' + vowel = á (or ó -- you get the drift)
• " + vowel = ä
• ~ + vowel = ã
• ` + vowel = à
• ^ + vowel = â
• ' + c = ç

However, to get an apostrophe to appear on its own, (or the other aforementioned characters) you'll have to do this:

• • ' + space = '

This works with all accented languages -- not just French, of course. It works like a charm, you can type fast and none of those silly codes, clicking on a keymap or copying and pasting. I strongly recommend this option. If it sounds tough to install at the start, just bear with it -- if you use lots of accents, you'll be glad you did.--Zantastik talk 19:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much Zantastic! --Mathew5000 21:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Mentalis Uber Alles

What does the phrase mentalis uber alles translate to? Taiq 18:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

It's mixing Latin and German. Mentalis is late Latin for "mental", über alles is a German phrase meaning "above/over all". I suppose this could be taken to mean "mind over matter"? --Pifactorial 19:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Note that it is probably a reference to the German national anthem lyrics 'Deutschland ueber alles', meaning 'Germany over everything' (a bit of a lame translation). Depending on the context, that could be relevant. Or it could refer to someone who goes mental over everything. DirkvdM 06:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Nitpicking ahead: these lyrics are part of the first stanza of the Lied der Deutschen, but not of the German national anthem (which consists only of the third stanza of the Lied der Deutschen. --Rueckk 12:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Mental As Anything?? Probably not. JackofOz 23:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Common English terminology

This a general sort of question. I was wondering which particular references you would to determine usage in the english language. I dislike googling as a reference in this. I was thinking there must be alternatives that linguists would use to tell about the global usage of the language. Do any such journals or refernces books on this subject exist?--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 20:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

People who are serious about this do corpus linguistics. As far as I know the corpora tend to come from the UK, US, Canada and Australia, though our article does mention an Indian one. Henry^Flower 20:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I've had the pleasure of using the Wellington Corpus (for NZ English) too. Ziggurat

Mohammed and the mountain

As a muslim I cannot find any reference to the phrase "If the mountain wont come to muhammed......" Does anyone know the rigin of the saying?

I'm sure I read a longer answer to this question not long ago. Here's all I could dig up quickly: [2] --π! 23:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The earliest use of the idea in English seems to be from Francis Bacon's essay on Boldness

Nay, you shall see a bold fellow many times do Mahomet's miracle. Mahomet made the people believe that he would call an hill to him, and from the top of it offer up his prayers, for the observers of his law. The people assembled; Mahomet called the hill to come to him, again and again; and when the hill stood still, he was never a whit abashed, but said, If the hill will not come to Mahomet, Mahomet will go to the hill. So these men, when they have promised great matters, and failed most shamefully, yet (if they have the perfection of boldness) they will but slight it over, and make a turn, and no more ado.

I don't know if there is an islamic source. The interpretation most often given, different to Bacon's, is that he was trying to stop his followers flattering and idolising him which is very similar to the story of Canute the Great. MeltBanana 02:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Spanish-English translation software

Is there anything better than Google Translate for converting between Spanish and English (in both directions). I've also tried Babel Fish, and I think its translations are worse, although I see in SYSTRAN that they use the same underlying engine. Is the live beta of the next generation of Google's version available anywhere for Spanish?

I'm looking for something for free, and yes, I will use it for my homework, but only to get a very rough first draft. I've seen the discussion above at #translation website.-gadfium 23:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Speaking specifically of Google, there's no other Google translation site other than Google Translate. I.e. no "secret live beta" as of now. --Ornil 20:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

July 19

"Take Evasive Action"

What is the origin of the phrase "take evasive action"? I've seen it referenced in multiple contexts (many science fiction): is it an in-joke like "All your base are belong to us"?--Lkjhgfdsa 00:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

It's originally a term used in combat in WWII. The OED cites the first written reference in the Feb 10 1940 issue of The War Illustrated magazine. It means simply to evade something (i.e. run away! run awaaaaaay!). Ziggurat 00:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Although to clarify Ziggurat's reply, 'take evasive action' should not be mistaken for another way of saying 'retreat', although they may sometimes be the same. Evasive action is more to describe how one would behave in order to avoid being hit by an incoming torpedo or rocket, for example.--Anchoress 02:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Edited to add: Because it's so prevalent in movies and TV, and used so seriously, the parody possibilities are myriad, which may explain the joke factor; I've seen too many parodies to remember specific ones, but they run along the lines of: "Incoming fat kid at three o'clock! Take evasive action!" I think the closest to a self-parody of the phrase is probably Captain Kirk of ST:TOS.--Anchoress 02:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Changing the lyrics or words to a song but keeping the same melody/rhythm

Please can someone help me to find the correct word for my question... thanks

Im looking for the English Word that describes the act of/or person who changing/changes the lyrics or words to a song but keeps the same melody/rhythm.

"the band sing's mostly 'cover' songs" I know 'cover' is used to describe the act of singing someone else's songs and 'translate' could be used when a song is sung in another language... but I really cant find the word to use for the above question.

I'll continue searching the net. thanks

The nearest term I can think of is a Filk, but this is a specific term used in science fiction fandom. It usually refers to a parody song (the term has gained a little bit of wider circulation due to its use to describe people like "Weird Al" Yankovic. Though usually a parody, and usually set to a well-known tune, filks can also be original in tune and/or on serious subjects. Grutness...wha? 03:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Filk is used in other fandoms, but I agree that it's fanfic/fandom specific. Depending on the content, such songs can just be called parodies.--Anchoress 03:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Bastard pop? MeltBanana 12:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Nope, that's something else (probably should be called mashup). zafiroblue05 | Talk 00:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Parody music seems to be the most appropriate term. --LarryMac 15:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Only if it's actually a parody. The Star-Spangled Banner, for example, is not, yet it is an example of what the OP was asking about. (Francis Scott Key's poem was set to the melody of the drinking song "To Anacreon in Heaven.") --Tkynerd 13:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

So, you're looking for a single word meaning "to the tune of"? It seems like there is one, but I can't remember what. "Ripoff" comes to mind, but I don't think it's quite in the spirit you're looking for. Black Carrot 23:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#contrafactum (musical term). JackofOz 21:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

jokes

can u recommend a site where i can read lawyer jokes as a matter of fact any kind of jokes because i need a laugh --Mightright 06:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

http://notendur.centrum.is/%7esnorrigb/signeng.htm has some real-life, not made-up jokes, which is always a bonus. Of course, an Englishman would see nothing wrong with riding on his own ass, so the 'jokes' don't work for everyone. :) Not exactly jokes, but I find these do qualify as good entertainment: http://www.optillusions.com/. DirkvdM 07:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• Snopes-hotclaws**==(81.134.116.29 07:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

He's not for everyone, but you might like Maddox. He writes the self-proclaimed Best Page in the Universe. Or, you could try the webcomic section of squidi.net. A Modest Destiny is always good for a giggle. Black Carrot 16:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Did you hear about the alcoholic law student ? No matter how hard he tried, he could never pass the bar. StuRat 23:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Carmen Miranda Warning: "You have the right to wear a silly hat with fruit on it, but, if you choose to do so, this may be used against you in a court of law." StuRat 23:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Hebrew reduced vowels

In the article Biblical Hebrew language and in other sources, I find the statement that Hebrew had, besides long and short vowels, also three different "reduced" vowels (not just a schwa, but also an a-derived and an o-derived one). Does anybody know what "reduced" is supposed to mean in this case, i.e. what these vowels are believed to have been, phonetically? Maybe centralized? --194.145.161.227 14:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, our knowledge of the exact phonetic details of Biblical Hebrew is very limited (i.e. nonexistant), but I suspect that at the very least they were durationally shorter than the short vowels, and probably centralized as well. User:Angr 14:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, you're right; in fact a textbook I have says exactly that: they are supposed to be extra-short. I suppose it should be added into the article. So here comes the next question:

Extra-short vowels

Can you give me an example of an extra-short vowel in some language? The article does give an example (police), but I'd appreciate more examples (Personally, I'd never noticed that the vowel in police was shorter than other schwas. Except for British English, where it often sounds simply like "pleece", IMO.)--194.145.161.227 14:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the implication is that schwa is shorter than other short vowels (the o of police is shorter than, say, the o of lot), not that the schwa in police is shorter than other schwas. User:Angr 15:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe. Although the transcription they give is [pə̆liˑs], which IMO suggests that there is a difference between [ə̆] and simply [ə]. In any case, it's clear that an unstressed vowel as in police is normally shorter than a stressed one as in lot. It would make more sense to compare the o of police with an unstressed non-schwa, e.g. the o of monsoon. Even then, such an example doesn't help me imagine what an extra-short vowel sounds like; I'd need to be able to compare sounds with more or less the same quality (e.g. o), but different quantity (short vs extra-short).--194.145.161.227 15:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I know it's a week late, but I would like to go back to the first question you asked. These vowels are the חטף (Template:Semxlit, or hurried) vowels. They generally occur with the so-called 'guttural letters (אהחע). They are reduced in the fact that, according to Masoretes, a short vowel does not stand in open, unstressed syllable. It seems that the shewa mobile was considered to slight a pronunciation with these letters. The hateph vowels are 'reduced' in the sense that the imperative of עבר (Template:Semxlit, he passed) is Template:Semxlit, where ă represents the hateph-pathah (חטף־פתח). Thus, it is a reduced vowel used to represent, in this case, the more abrupt imperative of a 'pe guttural' verb. — Gareth Hughes 18:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

crossword help

could u help me with these clues

1 involve (c*n*e**) possibly contend --Richardrj 17:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC) or concern - Natgoo 18:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

2 small hard seed of corn (5) grain --Richardrj 17:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

3 head - tot (*o*m**) {im not very sure} noggin --Richardrj 17:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

4 stylus (******) needle --Richardrj 17:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

5 french spa town (V*C*Y) VICHY? --Ornil 21:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

bug that is noted for its camoflage (5,6) stick insect --Richardrj 17:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

6 gross affront to decency (7) outrage --Richardrj 17:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

7 great slaughter (7) carnage --David Sneek 18:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC) Already got that one :) see below. --Richardrj 18:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC) Oh, yes. I found it independently though! --David Sneek 18:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

8 system (of acting) (6) method --Richardrj 17:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

9 first public appaerence (5) is it debut??

10group of people chosen to judge or discuss (5) forum --Richardrj 17:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

--Mightright 16:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

5. is probably Vichy 7. carnage? I agree that 9 is probably debut. --Grammatical error 16:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

i appreciate all of you for your help now i need 2 clues

head -tot(6)(*o***n)

small hard seed of corn (5)(**a*n)--212.72.14.65 17:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC) u guys are geniuses especially mr richardj--212.72.14.65 17:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Could (1) be connect? User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Head - tot is definitely noggin - it means both head and a measure of drink. Grutness...wha? 03:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Language & Nations: A chicken and the egg question

Nations and languages are often tied very closley. My question is, are there any theories about why this is? I wonder:

• did nations become nations because of the shared language?

or

• did the central power of the nation cause a single language to become dominant?

or maybe it just happened that the people in a specific area all spoke the same laguage and later became a country. I would guess the best way to answer this question would be to see which came first: proto nation states or shared language, but I'm not sure where to look. Thoughts? -Quasipalm 18:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Nations form because it has a strong unified culture. Most early nations shared one language, others were added due to emigrants, occupation of other groups, and geographic isolation of certain areas of the country. For example, China had a unified language (for the Han ethnic group anyway) until the end of Middle Chinese, when its dialects ceased being mutually intelligible and (arguably) became seperate languages. Other cases include Great Britian, whose main modern ethnic group is germanic; large groups of germanic immigrants arrived in the fifth century, forcing the celtic population to the fringes of the island, and combining their differing languages eventually into Old English. So the egg and the chicken change order depending on which nation you are looking at.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 18:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it's mainly the second version ("the central power of the nation caused a single language to become dominant"). Before a central power intervenes and imposes a standard language (through education etc.), there are no distinct languages, just a dialect continuum (i.e. each village speaks a slightly different tongue, and it's hard to tell in which particular village the dialect ceases to be, say, "Dutch" and becomes "German"). A "separate language" actually means a standard language, i.e. the thing that is taught at schools; and, of course, it's impossible for all the people in an area to speak such a single standard language until a state imposes some standard. --194.145.161.227 18:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

As they say: A language is a dialect with an army and a navy. --Kjoonlee 18:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we've even got a special article about that saying (the language-dialect aphorism).

There's a thing I forgot to mention: besides standard languages, aka Ausbausprachen ("built-up languages"), you can also define a language as Abstandsprache ("distance language") - two languages (in the sense of Abstandsprache are separate when they aren't mutually inteligible. However, that definition doesn't help you determine where the borders between two such languages are, since there is no place where the inhabitants of one village suddenly cease to understand the language of the next village. Now, when you've already got two separate standard languages (Ausbausprachen), you can determine whether they are mutually unintelligible (i.e. whether they constitute Abstandsprachen) or not. --194.145.161.227 19:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, lot's of interesting thoughts. Thanks all! -Quasipalm 21:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The other side of the coin is minority languages which survive and flourish even when they are closely related to the main langauge of the country. Catalan would be a good example. It is related to Spanish and French and it would probably be possible to create a dialect-continuum map. But it has always had sufficient status amongst its own speakers (for example they prefer to conduct business and write literature in Catalan) to survive as a language not a dialect even though Catalonia is not an independent country. Lowland Scots (related to English not Gaelic) could have been a similar case but prosperous Scots dropped it in favour of English, leaving Lallands as a low-status dialect not a recognised language. Jameswilson 23:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Jared Diamond's book "Guns Germs and Steel" would probably interest you a lot. It examines culture and nationhood (including language I think) taking China as one of its examples. Its a damn good read in its own right too. As I recall, he shows evidence supporting the 2nd version (a dominant nation imposing its own culture) in several contexts not limited to language. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 10:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

An interresting case is the Dutch language, which is spoken in both the Netherlands and Flanders. Originally this was one region, under Spanish rule (effectively). After they became independent, the original idea was to make it one country, but religion got in the way and they split up. Now, the official language is still the same, but there is a rather clear difference between the way people speak (accent and choice of words). I suppose an important factor here is tv (and radio). One tends to watch the tv stations of ones own country, and that must have been the most unifying factor in the history of languages. Confusingly, Belgium has two languages (Dutch and French) but I don't know the details of that.

Another example is America. The major languages (apart from Portuguese) are English in the North and Spanish in the South. England has strong ties with North America and Spain has strong ties with Latin America. Of course the fact that many Latin Americans are of Spanish descent is a factor here, but the same is not true (to the same extent) for North America. The fact that you can easily communicate makes cooperation more logical. I wonder if France has any special ties with Quebec and New Orleans.

Btw, a variety of the Dutch is also spoken in South Africa (Afrikaans), but that has diverged so much from the original language that the two are barely mutually intelligible. How the chicken-egg thing worked here, I don't know.

Off-topic: the egg came before the chicken. DirkvdM 11:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

But who laid it? JackofOz 11:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

A protochicken. --Ptcamn 12:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

To be more a bit more explicit, during evolution, some animal became what we now know as the chicken. That ancestor to the chicken could indeed be called a proto-chicken. Which of course laid eggs. Also, there were probably loads of other animals that also laid eggs, and the question doesn't specify it should be a chicken-egg. But that's a bit lame. DirkvdM 12:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

This is because an egg is genetically identical to the animal which it produces, while not genetically identical to the animal that laid it (under sexual reproduction). So, whatever species the egg is, so is what comes from it. However, it is possible for it to have been laid by a different species. StuRat 23:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Many European countries: France, Britain, Spain, Germany, and Italy have had or still have (e.g., France) specific policies of supressing linguistic heterogeneity. T A specific language was imposed on what were many different languages. here was a time when relatively few French people spoke what could be called French. This has also happened in the US, where Native American children were discouraged from speaking their tribal languages, and German was banned. mnewmanqc

While Amerind languages were often officially supressed, European languages, particularly Germanic ones, were never treated as harshly. German, in particular, was most definitely not banned. Both sets of my paternal great-grandparents, from Aargau and Hamburg respectively, settled in the coal country of Pennsylvania in an immigrant enclave. Everyone spoke German and passed it on to their children. My grandfather's mother even forced him to speak German in the house. The children were forced to speak English at school, but there was never any active ban on the language in daily life. German just lost prestige and was abandoned. Bhumiya (said/done) 19:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

My bad. German wasn't precisely banned, but bilingualism was discouraged harshly in a number of states with high German populaions such as Iowa with the equivalent of current English only laws and eliminating what would today be called bilingual education. It was a kind of histeria associated with WWI. The point is that it didn't just lose prestige; there was an active effort to remove the prestige. mnewmanqc

July 20

The dot on top of an "i"

What is this called? I recall there is a specific name (not dot) that it's called. Can you help me with this? Thanks. --Proficient 03:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't laugh, but it's called a tittle. Ziggurat 03:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought that a tittle was the line across a t, while the dot over an i is a jot. User:Zoe|^(talk) 03:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

OED and Dictionary.com say 'tittle' - possibly what you're describing is a folk etymology of the phrase? "Jot" comes from iota, and "tittle" translates as a small stroke or mark (from Latin titulus, the same place we get tilde - it was formerly used to describe several different types of diacritic), so the two together imply all manner of minor typographic details. I don't know the name for the line across the t, though. Ziggurat 03:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

All right, thanks for your help. --Proficient 03:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

bellum

in Latin bellum means war, yet in modern Romance languages it's usually something like guerra or guerre. yet the word for beautiful is bello or bella in some Romance languages. I don't think bello/bella came from bellum but it just seems strange. so where did bello/bella really comes from

From Latin bellus (feminine bella), meaning "beautiful," according to the Oxford English Dictionary -- Mwalcoff 03:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

"War" and "Guerre" were derived from a Teutonic (Proto-Germanic?) root werz-. The OED suggests that the Latin bellum was avoided in French, Italian, Spanish, etc. exactly because it was coincidentally too close to bello. Ziggurat 03:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

phonetic and pronounciation help needed

I'm working on some of the fringe sexuality articles. Someone added pronounciation guides for the term "zoophilia" (roughly pronounded USA: either "zow-uh-fil-ya" or "zu-fil-ya" EU/UK:"zu-fil-ee-a" I think, but I'm not sure), but they weren't adequate. Can someone else here help? Ideally I'm after a good suggestion both for IPA (or whatever the appropriate standard is for pronounciation guides) and Latin alphabet phonetic spelling, for USA, UK and possibly AU if different. Thanks! FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 04:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe /zəʊəʊˈfɪlɪə/ and /zoʊəfɪlˈɪə/? My IPA is a bit rusty. Ziggurat 04:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

In part, I'm also trying to confirm with native speakers how exactly it *is* pronounced too, as well as how thats shown in IPA and phonetically. I've heard 3 pronounciations to date, so I'm not 100% sure if they are all in use or which are the favored ones if so. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 08:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't say I've ever said the word myself :) I'd suggest checking in a dictionary with a good pronunciation guide; sorry I can't help further! Ziggurat 11:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Translation needed

Dear wikipedians:

What is the English translation for the following Chinese phrase?:

"对你不客气!"

Thanks a lot!

Shuo Xiang 05:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

If I'm understanding your attitude correctly, it is a threat right? It should be something like "[You better do this,] or else you're gonna get it!"

(Literally, "[I] won't be 'polite' to you") Alex Ng 06:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. --Proficient 14:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Fiddly

According to this dictionary entry - http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861673867/fiddly.html - "fiddly" is a UK word. Is this word recognised in other English-speaking countries? If not, which word would you use instead? (Please don't quote me the Wiktionary entry, because it was written by me, just now.) --Heron 09:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I think an American could figure it out by context. If a Brit said to me the example sentence used in the Encarta dictionary ("Changing the battery in this type of watch can be quite a fiddly job") I'm sure I'd know what he meant, but I'd certainly never use that word myself. If I were the one changing the battery in the watch I'd probably just say "Changing the battery in this type of watch can be really hard 'cuz the parts are so small and you have to have a steady hand" or something like that. User:Angr 09:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Angr. I'm trying to write "international" English, so I think I'll leave out this word and paraphrase instead. --Heron 10:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Fiddly is very commonly used and understood in the land down under. JackofOz 10:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Atlantis? Black Carrot 16:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

No, that name was already taken so we had to settle for 'Straya. JackofOz 23:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Jack's neighbours in godzone would recognise it, too. Grutness...wha? 03:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Off topic: I wonder why Australia is referred to as "down under", but as far as I'm aware New Zealand isn't, when NZ is even more down under than Oz is. (Maybe because NZ is just a pretend country ....)  :--) JackofOz 04:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Or perhaps because "New Zealand" isn't so offensive that it needs a euphemism. User:Angr 15:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm Canadian and completely familiar with the word.--Anchoress 03:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I certainly didn't know what it meant, but could infer it quite easily. --Proficient 14:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary (an American source) describes the word as "chiefly British" [3]. I'm Canadian and in my experience the word is used in Canadian English, but generally not by young people. --Mathew5000 10:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

British v. American English

When editing en.wikipedia articles, is it appropriate to use American spelling or British spelling? Specifically, I'm asking about the use of meter v. metre.

Mikieminnow 12:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Best use is to follow the style the article is already in: if its written in British English, use that; if its in American English, use that. The exception is if an article is specifically tied to one country, then whatever the local varient is should be adopted.--iamajpeg 12:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia has readers from all over the world, our policy is to respect other forms of English in Wikipedia articles.

The guidelines are simple. For subjects exclusively related to Britain (for example, a famous British person), use British English. For something related to the United States in the same way, use American English. If it is an international topic, use the same form of English the original author used.

In view of that, please don't change articles from one version of English to the other, even if you don't normally use the version the article is written in. Respect other people's versions of English. They in turn should respect yours. Other general guidelines on how Wikipedia articles are written can be found in the Wikipedia:Manual of Style. If you have any queries about all this, just ask anyone on Wikipedia and they will help you. Enjoy your time on the internet's fastest growing encyclopædia/encyclopedia. Lectonar 12:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all the help! Mikieminnow 13:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

For meter/metre, you can often avoid the debate and just use m. Rmhermen 16:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

not if you're discussing the structure of a poem! Grutness...wha? 03:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I've always wondered... how hard would it be to just have a built in wikipedia user interface that would allow one to view the spelling you are familiar with, much how their is a date (mm/dd/yy) that you can set in the preferences. Or would that be too tedious? --Proficient 14:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I've thought about it too. At Chinese Wikipedia you can choose whether to view a page in simplified or traditional characters. The difference between that and BrEn vs AmEn, though, is that in the English case it isn't always a one-to-one correspondence. Americans spell the verb "tire" and the noun "tire" (of a car) the same, Brits spell the verb "tire" but the noun "tyre"; the software would have to know which was being used. British uses spelt both for a type of grain and for the past tense/past participle of spell; American uses spelt for the former and spelled for the latter. British spelling has programme except in the case of computer programs, which are spelled program; that's something else the software would have to be able to detect. American spelling uses analogue to mean an object of analogy but analog as an antonym of "digital"; British spells both meanings analogue (I think). Then there are names: even Americans spell Labour with a u when speaking of Tony Blair's party, while the Australian party is spelled Labor even though the common noun is labour in Australia. And finally, Canadian Wikipedians might want their own version, using Canadian spelling, which is a fun blend of British and American spellings. All in all, I think it would just be too complicated to implement. User:Angr 10:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

unity makes strength

how do you say "in unity is strength" and "unity makes strength" (both phrases) in Latin?

Vires in unitate, In unitate vires, Unitas vires facit etc. are possibilities. See the motto of Haiti for a French version. AnonMoos 13:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

classic: ex unitate vires --Seejyb 18:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

That's the motto of the old South Africa [4] - AnonMoos 06:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Summary

Hi,

I have been trying to find a summary for Dickens' "The Trial for Murder" and "The Haunted House"

Maybe I am not very good at it but it has been about a week already and I have not found anything.

If you can help me, I would really be thankful.

Eddy

Try www.google.com searches:

• summary Dickens "The Trial for Murder"

or

• synopsis Dickens "The Trial for Murder"

or

• review Dickens "The Trial for Murder"

or

• criticism Dickens "The Trial for Murder"

and then

• summary Dickens "The Haunted House"

or

• synopsis Dickens "The Haunted House"

or

• review Dickens "The Haunted House"

or

• criticism Dickens "The Haunted House"

Somewhere in there you should find a good review for each. StuRat 23:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

They're short stories, why not just read them and summarise them yourself?--Anchoress 02:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Since they are so short, I assumed perhaps the person wanted an explanation that explains and analyzes it thoroughly. --Proficient 14:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Staircase Paper cuts

Is there a term for paper which is cut so that it forms a "staircase" when stacked? One can see that e.g. with Address books and various personal organizers, with cuts tagged A-Z. (Background: I want to describe the "bidding box" device which you can see here Image:Bidding_box.jpg, but don't know how to put it simply). Duja 15:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

One way of referring to it (when assembled in bound form) is "tabs". Don't know what terms the printers use to describe the actual process of paper cutting. AnonMoos 16:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah that's how the tabs got the name :-D? And I wrote tons of code using them... Silly me... thanks. Duja 14:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't think of any specific name off the top of my head, but as the abovementioned "tabs" was offered, I suppose that would sound right. --Proficient 14:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

bibiography - who authors govt docs

For the purpose of writing a bibliography or entering data into a bibliographic database (Endnote, for example) how does one list the 'author' of a government document, such as the Basic Law of Hong Kong, or the Consitution of Papau New Guinea, or the Sino Portuguese Joint Declaration?

If a doc does not have a human 'author' ... what are our options.

Thanks if you can help.

which citation style are you using? (Or if you don't know, then what level of education are you in, and what field?) 82.131.187.228 18:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC).

This site is rather helpful. Citing Government Documents. schyler 18:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

'my-oh jhohn'

On the computer I'm using I can't see what I'm doing when adding IPA... Could someone please take care of this? Thank you. David Sneek 21:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Chris S. 00:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. David Sneek 16:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

July 21

Slang

The phrase "ride a St. George" means to have sex. Why? zafiroblue05 | Talk 04:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

This might be of some help. I can't open it right now, but it looks promising. JackofOz 04:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

According to that link, it specifically refers to the cowgirl position. St George is typically depicted on his horse slaying the dragon, so I think that's the connection (thus 'riding in the style of St George', not 'riding of St George'). Henry^Flower 10:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Cowgirl. ;) --Proficient 14:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Author as a verb

The question 3 threads up got me thinking. "Author" is more and more commonly used as a verb (unfortunately). But we can't use "writer", "poet", or "novelist" as verbs. What's special about "author"? JackofOz 04:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, for 'writer' there is already the verb 'write'. And poets and novelists 'write poetry' and 'write novels'. But one cannot 'auth' or 'write authory' or something. So at least there is a need for a verb. DirkvdM 06:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd say "writer" and "novelist" are ruled out as verbs by their clearly nominal suffixes and in the case of "writer" also by the existence of the verb "write". For "poet", I don't know. User:Angr 06:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

"Author" has a nominal suffix too, sort of...at least it does in the Latin form, auctor. Adam Bishop 16:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

What's so unfortunate about it anyway? --Ptcamn 06:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Because it's ungainly and unnecessary. Why not just use 'write'? --Richardrj 11:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

There is an important difference between 'author' and 'write' (hint - it's similar to the difference between 'author' and 'writer'). Henry^Flower 12:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Go on then, I'll bite. Enlighten me. BTW, the OED has "to be the author or originator of (a book, play, remark, etc.)", but says it is obsolete except in the US. --Richardrj 12:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

'Author' implies creative expression, and ownership of the resulting work. For example, I write shopping lists, but I don't author them (because it's not a particularly creative genre). Literary theorists discuss the death of the author, not of the writer (meaning that they don't presume that the writer's intended meaning is authoritative). Incidentally, the OED commentary suggests that this is yet another example of people getting het up over 'new-fangled' usages that actually have rather long and distinguished histories. Always amusing. :) Henry^Flower 13:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, Henry, but I'm with JackOfOz - I still think there is something a mite pompous about using the word 'author' as a verb, OED history notwithstanding. There may be a need to make the distinction between an author and a writer (although the literary theorists you mention would question that distinction), but is there really a need to distinguish between authoring and writing? --Richardrj 14:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Since when was minimalism a goal? Maybe we don't really need to distinguish them, but you'll be excising half the lexicon if you only allow words that are really needed. --Ptcamn 14:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It may well be pompous to use the verb "author" when "write" would suffice (as in Henry Flower's example of "I authored a shopping list"), but there are definitely examples in the OED entry of "to author" being used where "to write" couldn't be used:

• The divine blessing which authors all the happiness we receive.
• He once authored the famous Ziegfeld Midnight Roof productions.
• The saying was authored by some husband.

User:Angr 15:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

For better or worse, "authoring" is used to describe the process of creating CD or DVD content; i.e. not just copying files to a disc, but determining the layout of data files, menus, etc. --LarryMac 15:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Note that there are other words ending in "-or" that can be either nouns or verbs, such as "proctor". It appears that if a word ends in "-or" and is meaningless without the "-or" ending (unlike, say, "investor"), then it can serve as both a noun and a verb. --π! 17:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The world seems to consist of 2 kinds of people: those who "get het up over 'new-fangled' usages that actually have rather long and distinguished histories" (per Henry Flower), and those equally amusing types who defend to the death the most absurd and unnecessary neologisms.

Appealing to the OED or any other lexicon is not all that helpful - one could find all manner of words recorded that may have had a few appearances here and there over the course of centuries, but which are not part of the standard repertoire of English words. A lot of neologisms arise from journalese, corporatese, PR-ese or IT-ese. There seems to be a constant pressure to say ordinary things in new and different ways. I bet the journo or whoever came up with the most recent incarnation of "authored" didn't consult the OED, they just made up a word to meet this demand, completely unaware they weren't really coining a new word. I put the new verbs "helm" and "transition" into this category too. 50 years ago, who ever helmed anything, or transitioned from somewhere to somewhere else? Nobody. Was the world a whole lot worse off? No. I recognise that language is constantly changing to reflect a constantly changing world, and new words are often required. What I object to is the coining of new words where there is already a huge smorgasbord of perfecly fine choices available. JackofOz 04:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... perhaps I shall read some poeted works and writed volumes. :P --Proficient 14:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

'ex-' and 'former'

It is very common to hear both the phrases 'former (a position, such as the Chief Secretary for Administration)' and 'ex-(a position)'. The function is quite similar. Is there any difference between the two words 'ex-' and 'former'?

--Brian Chau 21/7/2006

None that I can see, except that 'ex-' is more informal and more likely to be used in things like newspaper articles. --Richardrj 07:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

"Ex-" takes up less space in a headline. AnonMoos 08:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

"Ex-" is originally an affix while "former" is an adjective. ("Ex" can now be a noun.) --Kjoonlee 12:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a slight tendency to use "ex-" to refer to an immediately former holder of a position (thus "former president Jimmy Carter", but "Ex-president Bill Clinton"). As I say, it's only a slight trend, though, and the two are largely interchangeable. Grutness...wha? 02:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like us to try to revive "erstwhile", "quondam," and especally "whilom." "Bill Clinton, whilom president of the United States" has a ring to it that "ex-" just can't manage, don't you think?· rodii · 04:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes - I keep forgetting his full name is Whilom Jefferson Clinton :) I do like "quondam", though. Grutness...wha? 02:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Memories of Englebert Humperdinck -- "Tell me when will you be mine, Tell me quondam, quondam, quondam". For the record, I use "erstwhile" fairly often. I also get strange looks from people. --LarryMac 14:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Not really. --Proficient 14:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

'so that' and 'such that'

I asked a question here a couple of months ago about these two linking phrases and whether or not they are distinct from each other, so apologies for asking again. I'm drafting a report in which I want to say "it should be possible to manage our funds so that/such that exchange losses are minimised." Which of the two is correct, and why? Many thanks. --Richardrj 09:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

In this case I think they are interchangeable, though they mean slightly different things. "Manage our funds in order that" versus "manage our funds in such a way that"; the only slight difference is that 'so that' makes it explicit that the minimisation of losses is an intended consequence. But since that's already clear from the context, either would do. Henry^Flower 10:20, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

In my case, my grammatical intuition tells me that only the first one sounds natural to me. --Kjoonlee 12:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

"Such that" always sounds stilted to me. I would personally choose between "so that" and "in such a way that". Jameswilson 23:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I would use "A so that B" when A is a specific method, and I am explaining that I am using the method to accomplish B, e.g. "I'm using a US credit card in France instead of cash so that I don't have to suffer another exchange loss when I change my leftover euros back to dollars". I would use "A such that B" when A is a vague method, and B is the goal I want the method to accomplish. "Manage our funds such that exchange losses are minimised" means the goal is to minimise exchange losses, and the general idea is to manage our funds, but the exact method for managing our funds is not yet known. "It should be possible to manage our funds such that exchange losses are minimised" means that we think there is a method to manage our funds such that exchange losses are minimised, but were not yet sure what the management method is. The statement as a whole seems hazy to me, and I think a more forceful statement about how exchange losses will be minimized might make the report better. Gerry Ashton 20:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but I wasn't asking for a critique of the sentence, just comments on 'so that' and 'such that'. --Richardrj 19:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

"So that" sounds better. As mentioned above, "such that" might imply an unintended consequence. --Proficient 14:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Sýr - Czech word

How is the Czech language word "Sýr" (cheese in English) pronounced? Could someone tell me in relation to pronounciation of English words? Basically, what I need is the way to say "ý". --Bearbear 19:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It's simply a long (in the phonetic sense, not in the English-historic sense) "i". "Sýr" would be roughly equivalent to English "seer". [si:r] --Ptcamn 19:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't seer have two syllables? A better approximation would probably be sear or sere. But it's a long vowel, so it's like seeear. —Bkell (talk) 19:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

In what dialect? In mine, there is only one syllable. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:20, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster gives two pronunciations for seer: one pronounced the same as sear or sere, and another pronounced like see-er. I've heard it pronounced the second way, but it's not a common enough word for me to say that the two-syllable pronunciation is more prevalent. —Bkell (talk) 21:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

See-er and seer mean different things. The American Heritage Dictionary gets this right. A see-er, with two syllables, is just a person that sees things. A seer, with one syllable, is a particular kind of see-er—one that sees things by supernatural means, a clairvoyant. --Ptcamn 08:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"Sýr" is pronounced like "sear," but with a rolled "r," kind of like in Spanish. -- Mwalcoff 23:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

July 22

Gender Neutral Language in Wikipedia

Do I have to, or is it suggested, I use gender-neutral language (for objective third person pronouns)?
i.e. "One, in his or her own opinion, may find it irrelevant." vs. "One, in his own opinion, may find it irrelevant."
-Bordello 00:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Neither alternative offered sounds too great to me -- how about "It may be considered irrelevant." AnonMoos 03:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. The article I had trouble with to is ethical_stress, though I put it up for deletion. But for future reference, I take it one should try to eliminate all traces of gender? I feel sometimes there is no alternative to the third person pronoun, though. Is there some guideline to this? Thanks again. -Bordello 03:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I remember my old physics teacher telling me how that worked: our entire lab book had to be written in passive voice, and he always clarified it with "think of it as having an alien do the experiment, then brainwash you and disappear." --ColourBurst 05:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm too lazy to check myself, but you might try checking the Wikipedia Manual of Style. From my observation stuff that isn't covered in WP:MOS tends to go on an article-by-article consensus basis. Which means that you might use your preference with no problems in a hundred articles and then find opposition on the 101st.--Anchoress 03:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, gender-neutral language is still not mainstream, and people disagree on the alternatives. "His or her/her or his" places one gender before the other. Sie and Hir has tonal connotations of "She" and "her". Not many people understand Ze or Zer (and there are other alternatives to that!). --ColourBurst 05:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with using the masculine in these cases. Yes, it's a flaw in the English language, but until an alternative gains widespread currency, we have to live with it. Much preferable to monstrosities like singular they. Henry^Flower 07:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Why is singular they a monstrosity? It can be found as early as Middle English, and in any case it doesn't only respond to gender. There are many cases of they with sex specific antecedents. Holden Caufield says something like: "I hate a guy who's always flicking their towel at everyone. (can't remember the exact quote). in the Catcher in the Rye.

Really, there's no "flaw" in the language. There's only a flaw in trying to impose a prescription that is based on misunderstanding how the language works. Specifially, pronouns in English do not need to agree with their antecedent in grammatical number. In some cases, they can't. If you don't think so try to interpret "Everybody got up, and then he left the room" with the he coreferring with everybody. (doesn't get better with he or she either.) mnewmanqc

"They" as a singular is only a "monstrosity" in certain cases of formal, written contexts. We needn't ploy the prescriptive grammarian card and tell people how they should talk, after all, linguistic aestheticness differ from context to context. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 17:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

In fact, it is appearing in many more or less formal written contexts too. I've noticed it in journalistic writing as well as some academic work, particularly that published in Britain. Somehow, the we still manage to communicate. mnewmanqc

The 2 options offered by the questioner both contain a grammatical flaw. If you use "one", you can't replace it with any personal pronoun, you have to keep on using "one". "One, in one's own opinion, may find it irrelevant" would be correct, but it's a sub-optimal way of expressing oneself. JackofOz

'Be bold' and see where it gets you. If someone objects, then you can resolve matters pacifically. ;) --Proficient 14:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Swear Word

My son has a friend that is from Canada and she tells him that the word "friggin" or "frigging" is a swear word in Novia Scotia. Can someone please tell me if this is true. Believe it or not, it is causing him a lot of stress.

I think it's a swear word in English, period. It's considered a 'lite' alternative to Fuck, and although it's still pretty rude, I've heard it on primetime (on The Simpsons). We have it listed under Frig, as a disambig. page.--Anchoress 03:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, it's a minced oath. - Nunh-huh 05:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Sweet!! But it is a lot earthier than most minced oaths.--Anchoress 05:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• It's not just a "fuck" alternative; at least in Victorian pornography, it meant "masturbate". --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a less harsh term. "Friggin'" to "fuckin'" is probably the equivalent of "biotch" to "bitch." It is indeed a lighter, less harsh downgrade of fuck. --Proficient 14:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure "biotch" is less harsh. --ColourBurst 00:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I do. I wouldn't start tossing it around at a job interview, but I think it's a good analogy actually.--Anchoress 00:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Biotch/biatch/beeyatch/bee-yatch is intentionally mispronounced to affect its interpretation. It's really much more friendly, if the person you're talking to realizes that. Black Carrot 03:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Can't remember where I heard this, but I thought it referred specifically to digital penetration, or finger-banging. It is widely used as a clean alternative to "fucking" but is, in fact, quite rude on its own account. Mattley ^(Chattley) 13:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

How to start speaking american english

Dear friends, Plz help to! i am from India & I really want to speak american english but do not know how to start. Kindly suggest me some steps to start my practice to make it possible as soon as possible.

tara

I'm assuming you mean speak with an American accent? You seem quite proficient in written English (and you've picked up Netspeak very well), so I'd suggest you find a neutrally-accented, non-jargony talk radio station, like NPR or CBC and listen away.--Anchoress 05:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC) EDITED TO ADD: Sorry, I'm assuming that you are not only from India, but in India; if you are somewhere else, my advice may be unnecessary.--Anchoress 05:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Listening and imitating is definently the place to start. You would also want to look at our article on General American, the "accentless" dialect used by broadcasters. It contains a fair bit of IPA, which may be new to you. Most helpful of all would be to find an American who is willing to help and have them listen to you and give pointers as you go along. --George 05:24, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

You're probably used to English English, so you could have a look at List of words having different meanings in British and American English. Adn follow the links, especially the 'American and British English differences' category at the bottom - that's an artcile-overview (but I can't put a link here due to a technical problem). Are you aspiring a job at a call centre? DirkvdM 07:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Not to be rude, but could you clarify - as well as accent, are you interested in improving grammar and vocabulary? --π! 07:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

No, he wants to speak American English. Henry^Flower 07:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Good thing. That way he won't have to snipe at other forms of English because of feelings of inferiority, bruised national amour propre, or a misplaced sense of self-importance. Not that anyone would do that, of course. - Nunh-huh 07:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

But he won't be able to understand irony. Henry^Flower 11:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The deficit will be compensated for by a near instantaneous recognition of mockery. - Nunh-huh 11:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Perception of it, perhaps. Henry^Flower 13:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

In response to Anchoress's comment above, you can listen to NPR through the internet via a local broadcaster. --Illnab1024 08:25, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Try http://www.mylanguageexchange.com/ You can find someone that wants to practice your language and you can trade. If your mother language is Hindi, which I'm looking to practice, I can help you with American English once I get high speed internet hooked up. That way I can use Skype or similar and not pay for anything above the internet access costs. Contact me on my talk page if you like. - Taxman ^Talk 16:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Listen to some American music. That will be a fun way to learn. ;p --Proficient 14:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of 'a ja nemam dara' ?

What does this Croatian phrase mean ?

This phrase returned sites which ended in .hr A search for 'country domain names' will tell you that .in = India, .hr = Croatia etc..

Please point me to a translation site where i don't have to specify the 'From' part, ('From'=Croatian, 'To'=English) because I don't recognize the alphabet of the language.

Thanks

I don't speak Croatian, but I am sure that a ja nemam means "and/but I don't have." Dara might be the genitive of dar meaning "gift." So "and/but I don't have a gift?" Hopefully a native speaker can comment. --Chris S. 04:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Chris got it right. "A ja nemam dara" means "But I'm not gifted", where gift is used in the sense of talent, of course. --dcabrilo 17:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

English conjugation

Where can I find paradigms of English verbs when there was still some significant conjugation? Shakespeare's use of the lady doth protest too much probably exceeds that period a little, but I assume that doth was kept for to do while perhaps other forms were dropped. I'm just curious into the latest paradigms of verbs before they were mostly deprecated. I guess this really should be on wiktionary (project with great potential - just needs a lot of content) but I can't find much information there. John Riemann Soong 23:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

You might look at Old English morphology. That kind of inflectional morphology had mostly eroded to a much simpler form by the time Middle English emerged, but you can still find some info at Middle English#Verbs. -(e)þ was the ME third person singular present ending.· rodii · 02:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

July 23

suffix -ness

According to Dictionary.com, the suffix "-ness" (as in "happiness", not as in "Inverness") comes from Old English, so is presumably Germanic. Does it have a cognate in any other living Germanic language? Bhumiya (said/done) 05:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

German -nis, e.g. in Kenntnis "knowledge"- THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, excellent. Bhumiya (said/done) 07:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

In Dutch that's kennis ("knowledge", but also "acquaintance"). David Sneek 10:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

You have the same in Afrikaans. Wikipeditor 15:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

However, the -nis in Dutch and German is only used for specific words. The -ness in English is pretty much the standard suffix - how round something is could be called its 'roundness'. In Dutch that would be 'rondheid'. That is not a standard Dutch word, but that's the point I'm making. If there isn't a word for it and you have to create it, you add -heid. It wouldn't be called 'rondnis'. The German equivalent of the Dutch -heid is -heit. DirkvdM 10:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

And that is the -hood suffix in English, which we use as often as German uses -nis :) Adam Bishop 16:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean. 'Roundhood' isn't English, afaik (but then what does a Dutchie know? :) ). And 'rundnis' isn't German either. 'Rundheit' is. DirkvdM 18:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I mean the cognate of -heid/-heit in English is -hood, but we don't use it very often ("neighbourhood", "brotherhood" for example). And German doesn't use -nis very often, while English uses it much more than -hood. Adam Bishop 19:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that -ness indicates some kind of measure, but -hood indicates a state. Brotherhood, not brotherness; but roundness, not roundhood. JackofOz 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

(And before you ask, Jack, no - Grutness is a place in Scotland). Grutness...wha? 06:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

(Aye, but that's about how grut you are. 'Gruthood' would simply state that you are grut.) DirkvdM 07:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

How grut thou art, how gruuuuuut thou art. Amen. JackofOz

Rutangna - an Ethiopian language?

Is there a language spoken in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia called Rutangna? If so, can you list any publicly available resources (online, books etc) about the language. - Fi Fionaol 11:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a language by that name. It could be a very distorted version of Xamtanga/Khamtanga, but that's spoken in the north. --Ptcamn 15:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the language on Ethnologue. You can browse the list by clicking this link. --Chris S. 22:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you have it confused. --Proficient 14:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I went straight to the Ethnologue too, with no luck. Perhaps if you mentioned the source, where you found this name, we could help in narrowing it down? Ziggurat

Hapticity

Hi there! I'm trying to improve our chemistry article on hapticity, and the term is related to the Greek for the word "held". Does anyone know what this is? --HappyCamper 17:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It is from "haptein", "to hold". Adam Bishop 17:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I've always assumed that the Germanic cognate resulted in English "heft". That's how I explain the term to people, anyway. True? · rodii · 17:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Um...how do you spell "haptein" in Greek? Does it really begin with eta? --HappyCamper 17:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Liddell & Scott says ἅπτω, infinitive ἅπτειν. No eta. —Keenan Pepper 18:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Oxford English Dictionary does not agree with your etymology, · rodii ·. It says "heft" comes from "heave," which comes from who knows where. BTW, in German it is "heben," which is closer to heave than heft. It might be interesting to look from Greek "haptein" to English "have," German "haben" too, though.--Teutoberg 20:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Something more interesting at Talk:Hapticity: from the Greek haptein, ηαπτειν. --HappyCamper 21:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The word haptic is used in psychology (perception an cognition) to refer to things perceived by the sense of touch. The term Haptics is used in computing for situations like total-immersion systems where there is a link between programs and tactile sensation. Grutness...wha? 07:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

any synonyms of "Abner" begins with an "A"?

is there any synonyms of Abner (meaning father of light in Hebrew) begins with an "A" in any other language? Thanks

Hmmm, don't know if this is what you're looking for but a literal translation of "Father of Light" in Tagalog is Ama ng Ilaw. --Chris S. 22:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

With the exception of Austronesian languages, I can find six languages whose word for "father" begins with "A":

Albanian: "atë"

Basque: "aita"

Hungarian: "apa"

Irish: "athair"

Korean: "abeoji"

Turkish: "ata"

There may be more. Of these six, some may place the genitive phrase "of light" after the word for father, but I can't say which ones for certain. Bhumiya (said/done) 23:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Also see Aramaic of Jesus#Abba (Αββα). JackofOz 01:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I was wondering if there is a single word (begins with "A") that defines "father of light" or "Source of light" in any language.

Agni means "fire". User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Linguists say that words like "appa", "papa" or "atta" are quite common "baby-babble words" for "father" and popular throughout the world. There are many more examples. Even the Germanic "father"-word with the "fa-" sound in the beginning (English "father", German "Vater", Dutch "vader") is a former "pa-" which underwent Grimm's law. Equivalent are words like "mam(m)a", Arabic "umm". --Rabe! 12:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

July 24

El Salvadorian slang

Does anyone from El Salvador know what "solotope" means? It's supposed to be a slang term they use, I think recently in El Salvador and I can't find it anywhere online --138.202.230.111 00:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Spanish adjectives for the cardinal directions

I stumbled across the Spanish Wikipedia article for Canadá the other day, in which it says that Canada is the "país … más septentrional del mundo", that is, the northernmost country in the world. I've only run across the word septentrional once before, at Talk:Ursa Minor#Septentrion, so I was rather surprised to see that it's used as a common word in Spanish. My Spanish–English dictionary gives two translations for northern (del norte and norteño); it lists más septentrional under northernmost. I am of course aware of the Spanish words oriental and occidental for eastern and western, respectively. My dictionary lists del sur and austral for southern, the latter being labeled as a Latin American variant, and after a bit of searching I was able to find meridional.

What is the difference in usage between words like septentrional, austral, meridional, oriental, and occidental and the phrases del norte, del sur, del este, and del oeste? Are there other words like septentrional that I'm missing? —Bkell (talk) 01:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have an answer for you, but I will note that you could ask the same question about English (except perhaps you would use boreal rather than septentrional. In English the distinction would be one of register, I suppose--the Latinate variants are in a register so highfalutin' as to be almost self-parodic. I gather this isn't the case in Spanish, but still, parallel native and Latinate vocabularies are pretty common in European languages, aren't they? · rodii · 02:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Does Spanish have a native vocabulary as opposed to a Latinate? By the way, I like the stress placement in Canadá: English, Russian and Spanish all have different stress positions (and French has none, they say :) Conscious 15:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I would say the existence of Spanish/Latin doublets such as Bkell posts above indicates that it does. The fact that Spanish is a Romance language doesn't preclude it having two strata in the lexicon, a native/Romance and a learned/Latinate. Just as English borrowed huge gobs of Latin during the 17th century, so, apparently did Spanish (at some point). (English has Germanic/French/Latin triplets here and there, I think.)· rodii · 16:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Spanish indeed has many "duplets," just as English has Germanic/French/Latin "triplets." Consider the following pairs of words: hierro, férrico,; madre, maternal; huir, fugaz. In each of these pairs, the first word is less formal, entering the language as Castillian evolved from Vulgar Latin. The second, more formal, word entered the language much later, from a literary Latin.

It's tangential, but there's some interesting names in various languages for winds that come from various cardinal directions: see Wind#Names_for_specific_winds_in_certain_regions and Category:Winds. — Catherine\^talk 22:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Septentrional is a direct Latin import, and is more formal register as with most Latin borrowings in European languages. Norte comes from Germanic, I think English but wouldn't swear it. It's like Bélico/Guerra. There is no descendent from Latin by normal language evolution rules here as is normally the case (e.g.,masculino/macho). [[user:mnewmanqc|mnewmanqc)

Norte doesn't come from English -- English north, Spanish norte and German Nord all come from the same Germanic root, so these words are siblings, not parents/offspring --Zantastik talk 07:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

But that only begs the question of how Spanish acquired a word from this Germanic root, which AFAIK is not a normal route by which words have entered Spanish. French, of course, also has nord, and I've wondered how that came about as well. I doubt that either language acquired this item from Proto-Germanic. --Tkynerd 18:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Comedic duo

Is there a technical term for the standard comedic duo? I'm thinking in terms of the secondary characters who are a comic foil to the main (usually dramatic) narrative, popularly used in Shakespeare (Rosencrantz and Guildenstern) and still common today (R2D2 and C3PO, Jay and Silent Bob, Pintel and Ragetti, Mullroy and Murtogg...). I'm not talking about straight-man and foil, because they're a little more complex than that, and I'm sure I remember somewhere that there's a specific name for this dramatic convention. I keep thinking 'dramaturgical dyad', but that's just an earworm from the Simpsons. Ziggurat 03:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

A female foil in comic opera is a soubrette; there's only one of her, but she does generally come with a male 'friend'. Henry^Flower 11:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Oo, interesting, but not quite what I'm looking for. I also found the Joey and Auguste relationship from professional clowning, but that's a little more specific than I'm looking for. Ziggurat 21:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, I've noticed that the crosslinking is incredibly helpful, since it often leads you to titles you wouldn't have thought of looking for directly. For instance, I started at Comic_relief, which didn't fit but lead me to a gold mine at Category:Stock_characters. The first one that looked helpful was Foil_(literature), which linked to Comedy_duo, which mentioned Buddy_film in the text, one example of which was Jay_and_Silent_Bob_Strike_Back. I got tired of it after that, but all along there are a web of other articles that will probably take you to what you're looking for. Black Carrot 03:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, those are really interesting. I guess what I'm looking for is term to describe a combination of the foil and the double act in a particular style; I'm not really looking for the specifically straight-man / foil relationship (as I mentioned in the original question), but it's possible that there is no more particular term for what I'm imagining :) Ziggurat 03:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Meanming and origin or the name 'Avigdor'.

Having read an article ref: Avigdor Liberman I'm very curious to learn the meaning and origin of the name, AVIGDOR. Would you be so kind to help in my quest? Your reply will be most helpful. Thanks for your time and kindness, Chet Elfenbein, Miami, Florida

The sites I visited said it's believed to be Hebrew and its purported meaning is 'father protection'. Googling 'avigdor name origin' or 'avigdor name meaning' will show some sites.--Anchoress 04:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Languages of Be bold.png

This image shows "Edit this page" and "What links here" in multiple languages/writing systems. I recognize Korean, English, Japanese, and Simplified Chinese, but what are the others?

I'm asking because I want to create an alternative SVG image. Thank you, in advance. --Kjoonlee 04:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I recognise German, Welsh, Spanish, and Thai as well. Can I suggest that you either contact the original creator, or look through the interlanguage links on the side of the be bold page? Ziggurat 04:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the one with the g-hat is Esperanto. —Keenan Pepper 04:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Redaktu la paĝon = Edit the page in Esperanto. --π! 05:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

And Pubblichi questa pagina is Italian. —Keenan Pepper 04:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

'Diese seite bearbeiten' at the top is German, 'Edita esta página' is Spanish and 'Deze pagina bewerken' right below that is Dutch. By the way, the Dutch and German sentences use the full verb, so they mean 'to edit this page', whereas the Spanish version is imperative. Not very consistent, but then only ref desk nitpickers would notice. DirkvdM 07:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't comment on the Dutch, but the German 'Diese Seite bearbeiten' is also imperative. It's identical to the infinitive form. —da Pete (ばか) 10:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Both the Dutch and the German are infinitive in form but imperative in function. In German, the genuine imperative would be one of "Bearbeite diese Seite", "Bearbeitet diese Seite", or "Bearbeiten Sie diese Seite". User:Angr 17:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I only see it in English, which is odd. Notinasnaid 18:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not good at the grammatical terminology, so I may repeat what you just said, but both the Dutch and German could be used in an imperative sense, but it would be an incomplete sentence. Sort of the way one speaks to someone one considers inferior. In other words a bit rude. At least the Dutch one, but I think the same goes for the German sentence. So I suppose it's not meant in an imperative sense. DirkvdM 18:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

In German at least, and presumably in Dutch too, using the infinitive as an imperative like this does sound kind of abrupt in conversation, but it's perfectly normal in written instructions. User:Angr 20:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

So how would you say it in conversational German to make it sound less abrupt? --Richardrj 04:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

"Bearbeite diese Seite." Or, when using the 'polite' form (as is pretty much the standard in Germany) "Bearbeiten Sie diese Seite." And it never hurts to add "bitte" ("please"). DirkvdM 07:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

German Wikipedia usually addresses its users as du, though (e.g. if you try to view your watchlist when you're not logged in it says "Du bist nicht eingeloggt"), so "Bearbeite diese Seite" is right. User:Angr 09:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Your post a little higher up gives both Bearbeitet and Bearbeite as possibilities (for the du form?). What's the difference? --Richardrj 09:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

"Bearbeitet" is informal plural, corresponding to the pronoun ihr. In general, it's used when speaking to two or more people you would individually address as du. User:Angr 09:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

This special form is commonly used for menus and buttons in computer programs, so most users would expect it here. However the text used on the WP site is not actually "Diese Seite bearbeiten", just "Seite bearbeiten". Kjoon, you might want to correct that in the SVG version. —da Pete (ばか) 09:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• Aha! Internet Explorer on Windows does not show the transparent parts of the image at all. If you are trying to reach the largest number of people, that might be worth bearing in mind. Notinasnaid 20:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Notinasnaid. I also see it only in English. I was wondering what the hell you other guys were on. I'm still not sure .....  :--) JackofOz 21:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

There's a pretty good list of translations of 'edit this page' here. Ziggurat 21:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

On a closer look, this page appears to be the place where all these translations were first listed. The languages in question are all there. Ziggurat 22:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The foreign charachters between "In" and "www." are southeast Asian, and Thai. — The Mac Davis] ญƛ. 21:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

stabo and stabila

As I understand it, in Esperanto, roots are never supposed to contain affixes. I was surprised when I stumbled across this situation:

• stabo (from the root stab-) means "staff"
• stabila (from the root stab-) means "staff-tool-ish"
• stabila (from the root stabil-) means "stable"

Of course, "staff-tool-ish" doesn't make any sense, but I still find this ambiguity frustrating. Does anybody know how this came to be, and are there any other examples of ambiguous roots in Esperanto? --π! 06:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I got the impression that it wasn't a big deal if the natural root happened to contain an affix; Esperanto wasn't designed to be computer-parsable, unlike Lojban. I think there's at least a few more of these cases; financo, and every other fi- word, include the fi- prefix.--Prosfilaes 06:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point, but at least nanco doesn't mean anything on its own. --π! 07:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Neither does "stab-il-a", really. People deal with real homophones all the time without much problem; pseudohomophones just aren't something to worry about. The fact that ni and mi are easily confused in a noisy environment is much more important, IMO.--Prosfilaes 05:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Bidun

What is the Arabic rendering of bidun? --Neutrality^talk 06:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it بِدون? Baa+kasra, daal, waw, nuun.--droptone 17:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a compound preposition: ب is a preposition meaning "by, at, in", added to the somewhat abstract noun دون gives بدون , meaning "without". AnonMoos 21:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

shot dead

Is "shot dead" proper English? If it's not, what do I replace it with? --mboverload@ 23:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It's perfectly acceptable English. It might be a bit informal in some contexts. If that's the case, you could replace it with "shot and killed". (The idea is to remove the ambiguity of simply saying "shot", since one can be shot and merely wounded, rather than killed....) - Nunh-huh 00:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely standard English. "Resultative" verb/adjective constructions abound in English and elsewhere: "left stranded" "run aground" (OK, that's not an adjective) "kept isolated" etc. It's fairly idiomatic in that not all combinations are possible. · rodii · 00:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The wording "shot to death" has been promoted as a replacement (ISTR for political rather than grammatical reasons), though Google test reveals both are very common. Googling with site:uk confirms my impression that "shot to death" is very rare in the UK. —Blotwell 01:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

However that could mean something different. "Shot dead" would generally be taken to mean one fatal shot, whereas "shot to death" would suggest many bullets, ie. they just kept on firing for as long as it took until the person died (cf. kicked to death, bashed to death). JackofOz 02:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I still don't get the controversy. How is "shot dead" any different from (the other canonical examples) the absolutely parallel "painted red" and "hammered flat"? · rodii · 04:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. "Hammered" does not necessarily mean the thing finished up flat; "hammered flat" completes the picture. And "painted" does not necessarily mean the thing finished up being red; "painted red" completes the picture. Likewise, you can be shot without dying ("shot"), or you can be shot fatally ("shot dead", or "shot to death", depending on the circumstances). JackofOz 06:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm intrigued by the idea that 'shot to death' is being promoted- by whom, and why? For me it conjures up visions of St. Valentine's Day massacre-style killing; I take it it doesn't have those connotations in AmE? Henry^Flower 11:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. To me, in Nebraska, "shot dead" gives the impression of a single shot that more or less instantly killed the victim, whereas "shot to death" sounds like the gunman kept shooting bullets until he was certain the victim was dead. —Bkell (talk) 18:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, to me (British) they also give that impression. I'm claiming (I reiterate, only on the basis of something half-remembered I read years ago) that shot dead, the common expression, sounded too clean and painless and the anti-gun lobby wanted to popularize something gorier. —Blotwell 23:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

July 25

Sweet Chinese nothings

How would you write "I love you" in Chinese? I know the symbols for the three words "I", "love" and "you" (我, 愛, and 你), but do they just go together one after (or below) the other as in English, or are there syntactic tricks that I don't know about? Also, if I were (totally hypothetically, of course ;) to write them on my sweetie's birthday card, would I use the form of you with the heart radical underneath? Oh, and in case it makes some difference, this would be preferably in the "traditional" pictograms rather than the modern ones (I don't think there's any difference with these characters, anyway). Grutness...wha? 10:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Hypothetically, yes, that's the way you'd do it. The version with the heart radical is traditional. I hope it has the desired effect, you smooth devil. Henry^Flower 11:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Heh :) My s/o's learning the language and I thought it would be nice to add it to her card. Since I'm helping her learn it I've picked up a couple of hundred pictograms, but I haven't yet learnt how to string them together. Thanks. Grutness...wha? 12:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, "pictograms" are pictures (which modern Chinese written language are not). "logograms" is what you mean. And the language itself has a grammar, so there's sentence structure. Take a look at the grammar article. --ColourBurst 18:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't write the "you" with the heart logogram underneath; it's the formal form of the pronoun. It'd be pretty much the same as saying Je vous aime in French or Ich leibe Sie in German.

Ah, yes, good point. Love with the heart radical (愛) is the traditional form of that character; you with the heart radical (您)is a different word from 你. Henry^Flower 20:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You should write it "我愛你". "您" is a polite form of 你, and is often used when talking to elderly people or people of higher status. Bibliomaniac15 00:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

OK thanks for all that. I wondered whether one might be the wrong form of pronoun ("you" is a pretty generic, multi-use word in English). Grutness...wha? 03:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

the initals of the title of a book appearing on the bottom of the page

i was wondering if anyone can help me with this. occasionally i notice at the bottom of a page of a book i am reading, that their may be the intials of the title of the book and sometimes a number printed there. for example 'against a dark background' - iain m banks (good read) will appear as a. a. d. b - (random number)i notice it more in older books pre computerastion of the printing process, and wonder if it had something to do with the 'laying out' of the print. if anyone could answer this question i would be very thankful as it has niggled away for many a year

I hope the number after the abbreviation isn't really random; the numbers should be in order. What you're seeing is a signature mark. Books used to be printed in signatures which were sewn together, and the printer needed to know which signature of which book he was looking at to do so correctly. You wouldn't want to sew signature 8 in before signature 7, nor would you want to sew in a signature from a different book altogether. User:Angr 12:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Books still are printed in signatures! (Mostly, except for el cheapo print on demand items.) · rodii · 13:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

 thanks will look up the link highlighted,

you have answered a very niggling question

Some simple French...

I've just written this phrase in French, though it is wrong (but I don't know where!) Please correct it.

L'absencer de poisson suggére q'il y a l'eau est polluée.

Thanks Computerjoe's talk 15:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

L'absence de poisson suggère que l'eau soit polluée. (Using the word you used, anyway; there may be better vocabulary.) Adam Bishop 15:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps 'de poissons'? Not 'des poissons', though, as that would indicate you were referring to all the fish in the world. --Richardrj 15:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Unlike Adam, I'm inclined toward "est polluée". I don't think it's usual to use the subjunctive there. Atleastin such scientific style. Circeus 17:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think L'absence de poissons suggère que l'eau soit polluée is alright. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 17:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

As a nature speaker, I think it makes a much weaker assertion (it is not the same as English "Suggest that the water might be polluted.", which is proper style in scientific writing) than what appears to be intended. Circeus 18:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps "fait supposer" (i.e., "implies") would be a better verb? Grutness...wha? 03:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

No, no native speaker would use fait supposer in this case; L'absence de poissons suggère que l'eau est polluée is the one. It would have been nice to know what you were trying to say in the first place, Computerjoe. Lectonar 06:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, good point...I remember learning all these verbs that can take the subjunctive, so I immediately think "subjunctive!" when I see them :) Adam Bishop 15:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I was saying 'The absence of fish suggest that the water is polluted. Computerjoe's talk 16:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

So it's like Circeus said: '...est polluée...' gets the gist best. Lectonar 07:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

German preterite

I'm preparing for a trip to Germany. I've been informed that in certain parts of the country, particularly in the south, use of the preterite in speech is considered snooty, although it is commonly used in writing and northern speech. I would have presumed the opposite, since the preterite seems quicker and somewhat more direct and blunt. Can an advanced speaker please confirm or refute this? Thanks. Bhumiya (said/done) 21:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Never mind. I just discovered our article on preterite covers this! Bhumiya (said/done) 21:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Huh. Here in Berlin (which was not in Southern Germany the last time I checked), the preterite is almost never used, either. I'd say that in Standard German, using the perfect tense instead of the preterite is pretty much universal. In the dialects/non-standard German varieties it might be different (Swiss German, for example, does not even have a preterite, if I'm not mistaken), but I don't think that carries over to the standard language. --Rueckk 12:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, with auxiliary verbs, Berliners and other Northerners use the preterite quite commonly. Berliners, like other Northerners, will ask "Warum warst du gestern nicht in der Schule?" and will answer "Weil ich krank war". Southerners will ask "Warum bist du gestern nicht in der Schule gewesen?" and will answer "Weil ich krank gewesen bin". Full content verbs are more likely to use the perfect though, especially irregular ones; even Northerners are more likely to say "Ich habe ein Buch gelesen" than "Ich las ein Buch". User:Angr 13:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I never noticed that. But then again, I try to stay out of Southern Germany. --Rueckk 13:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, how might I learn the preterite forms of (virtually) every verb? Would I have to go out and buy a German dictionary? I haven't been able to find this kind of information online. Bhumiya (said/done) 22:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Something like this? Henry^Flower 21:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

July 26

Summer Reading Synopses

I have to read a book this summer and write a synopsis of each chapter. I don't want to make it really boring saying each time, "In this chapter we learn..." or, "This chapter says..." What are some other openings I can use? Thanks. schyler 01:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

If you're using headings (i.e. Chapter One at the top of the page or paragraph) you don't need to make references to the fact that its part of that chapter. Just start:

Chapter Five

Jack and his friend Jill stopped worrying about the risks of hill climbing and decided to grab the pail. The pail symbolizes their disagreement over the use of the well.

or some such thing. Since you already have your chapter heading, you don't need to mention the chapter again, just jump right in! Emmett5 01:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have any friends called Jill. Pity, really. JackofOz 02:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

change in attitude and latitude

what's the relationship of attitude and latitude? and what does the subject phrase means?

Well, if someone gives you a certain latitude to do something, and you abuse that by going too far, their attitude towards you might be affected. Such as, our attitude to you may be a little negative because you used this service to answer what appears to be a homework question, without even attempting to rephrase it in your own words. That's one relationship that springs to mind. I'm sure there are other answers. JackofOz 03:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it all depends what is meant by the words. We are both at southern latitudes, so our attitude when standing is towards stars like Acrux and Alpha Centauri rather than Polaris and Dubhe. Grutness...wha? 03:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe there's a general feeling in North America that moving south to a warmer clime (for example, to the Caribbean) will result in a more relaxed overall feeling. Thus by changing latitude (e.g. from Boston, approximately 41 degrees N, to the Bahamas, approx 26 deg. N), one's attitude (i.e. outlook on life) will change for the better. cf: Jimmy Buffett's song Changes in Latitude, Changes in Attitude, or whatever it's called, I really can't stand the man's recordings. --LarryMac 13:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Proto-Indo-European root of "Finn"

According to our article on Finland, the word "finn" was originally a Germanic term for a nomadic hunter-gatherer. Assuming it is Indo-European and not a loanword from some other family, does anyone know the PIE root? Bhumiya (said/done) 03:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it comes from a non-IE language - see section a)Toponyms on this page. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! That'll save me some time. Bhumiya (said/done) 20:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Number Words

I've been trying to think of English words that enumerate specific objects, without making reference to the abstract concept of number. Triplets, for instance, is close, but the prefix is really code for the general idea of three-ness. A "couple" (the relationship meaning, not the general one) is closer, since it refers to two and, traditionally, only two things, and refers specifically to people, without suggesting that anything else can come in pairs. I read in a number theory book that such specialized words are fairly common in our and other languages due to our more primitive, less mathematically aware roots, but I can't think of anything that supports their claim. (Correction: I just pulled the book out, and it mentions couple, brace (of pheasants), and century in our language and bolo, koro, and salora in a different one.) Black Carrot 03:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting question, but I cannot find anything to support this either. As you say, there are several words for "two" (yoke is another), but a search for words that mean "three of something" (excluding tri- ter- tre- words) reveals almost nothing. Only "hat trick", which does not really qualify, and "tierce" which is also related to the word "three". "Century" derives from cent = hundred, so I don't think it meets your criteria.--Shantavira 08:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What about "both" and "pair"? User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

also brace - Nunh-huh 19:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

dozen (12), gross (144). JackofOz 21:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

btw, the definition of gross incompetence is forgetting to give your wife flowers on your 144th wedding anniversary. JackofOz 21:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be an impressive sort of competence if someone managed to pull this off. Whether the word gross also applies probably depends on how this is achieved. DirkvdM 06:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• A"leash" is three hounds,a "prile" is three-of-something in cardgames, and for Jack to make a joke, "score" is twenty-hotclaws**==(81.134.68.10 09:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

I got a million more where that came from (unfortunately). You'd better learn to accept it. :--) JackofOz 10:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Russian for 'Baby'

Can someone please tell me the Russian word for 'baby' and how it is pronounced in English? Thanks! --69.138.61.168 06:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It's ребëнок, pronounced like REBB-yaw-nock. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

That would be rebb-YAW-nock. JackofOz 21:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

IPA ... [rʲiˈbʲonək]. --Chris S. 03:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought I had once heard 'baboo'. But I suppose that's the Russian pronunciation of the English word. DirkvdM 06:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Whoops, I put stress typical of a Germanic language (first syllable)... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Origin of -s pluralization in English

As someone with an interest in historical linguistics, I've often wondered how English came to pluralize nearly every noun with -s. (Sure, some animal names take -Ø, such as "cod", "shrimp", "sheep" and "deer", and others -en, like "children" and "oxen", but those are the exceptions). I know how the -s pluralization entered the Romance languages -- the accusative plurals of latin, ending in -s (-ōs, -ās, -ēs) were generalized as languages started just using the accusative (or sometimes oblique/subject systems) -- see Vulgar Latin. But how did it come into English, a Germanic language that previously liked to use -en pluralizations or ablaut come to use -s? Was it due to the Norman Conquest (after all, Old French pronounced the -s, unlike mod French). And yes, the Viking settlements had led to other settlers speaking a very similar language to English living right with the English speakers, so when one person said (inventing here) "horsen" and another "horsu", they'd just say "horse" and split the difference -- whence the end of case in English. But did the Normans, whose langue was extremely influential on English actually dictate the plural? (Not unheard of -- "them" comes from a nordic language, talk about a basic element of a language!) Well, sorry for the rambling question -- I'm just too tired to write better. --Zantastik talk 07:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Origin of s-plural --Kjoonlee 07:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The quick answer is that the s-plural in English was already there in Old English, and has a good Germanic pedigree, the fact that it's become somewhat rare in Dutch in German and is (AFAIK) completely gone in North Germanic notwithstanding. The fact that French plurals were formed with -s may have had some influence on the productivity of the s-plural in English, but it was already there as the regular plural of one of the most common declension types even before the Norman Conquest. User:Angr 08:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

A look at English plural will show that English uses a large number of different system taken from all sorts of sources. Rmhermen 14:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

According to this page, the -s suffix is wholly Germanic, related to the Scandinavian -ar, etc. plurals. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 15:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! That makes a great deal of sense; I appreciate it! --Zantastik talk 18:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

While we're at it, do you think that the Old English nomative and accusative plurals that end in -s are closely linked to their Latin equivalants? Do they, and -as, -os, -es (plural acc.s) in Latin all come from the same PIE sources? Thanks so much! --Zantastik talk 18:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What a Brit means when they describe something as being "American"

I'm reading High Fidelity by Nick Hornby. He's English and I'm an American, so there are a number of phrases and such throughout the book that I don't quite get but can understand based on the context. I ran into one phrase though that I can't quite understand.

Rob, the main character, is describing the television show thirtysomething and he says that it's "...sappy, clichèd, American, and naff..." I don't really get what "naff" means either but my biggest confusion is over the term "American" when used in this way. I don't suspect it's a good thing considering the first two qualities that were listed but since I'm one of those Americans that doesn't understand why anyone would hate Americans in general, I'm really rather confused. So can anyone explain what he probably meant by calling the show "American"? And if you could throw in a definition of "naff" as well, that'd be nifty. Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 09:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

For naff, see Naff. Can't help with the other one, though. Lectonar 10:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

American is very hard to define. In that context, it could perhaps mean cheesy, stupid, annoying, shallow and more. But it is very hard. —Daniel (‽) 10:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget glamorous. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 15:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with either source, so this frees me to do some wild speculation and even wilder generalisation, with the benefit of creating some new terminology and abbreviations, and perhaps even stereotypes.

Suppose the person saying this is xenophobic Brit (XB). In this case you should be aware that to XB America is a continent. There may be several countries there, but an "American" is someone from that continent. What if XB wanted to distinguish people from the different countries? The need has probably never arisen. In this case XB should be understand to be using American as a specific case of "foreign" (and hence undesirable).

Now let's suppose the person saying this is cultural Brit (CB). CB believes in high culture and art pour l'art. American TV programs aren't really art to CB: they don't embody any worthwhile artistic values, and – worst of all – they are commercially successful, which means they cannot possibly be real art. Since the only US programs CB sees are the commercial ones (or so she thinks; in fact, there are many others but they have a different accent so they don't seem "American"), CB uses "American" as a gesture of automatic dismissal, because if it's American it can't be art.

CB and XB are likely to share a concern about "Americanisation": that a constant diet of American TV and other culture is changing their culture (as they see it) into a second rate copy of American culture, losing jellied eels, morris dancing or whatever quintessentially British things aren't represented.

How about lefty Brit (LB)? Always up to date with the latest causes, LB will have adjusted America (understood to be the USA, unusually), to be Public Enemy #1 based on recent rhetoric (rhetoric is preferred to actual reportage, but there's little in the reportage to disabuse her) on USA foreign and environmental policy. LB would use "American" to mean "product of the world's enemy" and hence it is incapable of being good.

Now, what about parochial Brit (PB). PB lives in Britain, and the things that matter to her are the things around her. American comedy and drama is extremely focussed on what happens in America (the daily rituals of high school, White House or coffee house). These just don't engage PB, so PB uses "American" to mean that it is about things she doesn't much care about.

Beware of witty Brit (WB). WB doesn't believe in very much, but like wits everywhere likes to turn a phrase that puts down a group. The bigger and more powerful the group, the better, if you want to be politically correct. WB knows that using "American" after a string of other negative adjectives will create a general impression: the actual impression depends on what kind of Brit is their audience.

There is also young Brit (YB). Disengaged from the world around her through the usual extreme repression teenagers feel, YB might see American culture as being representative of a golden world where youth culture is mighty and you can do anything you want until you are grounded. YB might use "American" to indicate a golden and desirable land. (Though YB could easily be diverted into XB, CB, LB, or PB).

If you extend this to thirtysomething young Brit (TSYB), a busy professional who travels the world and watches Satellite TV when they aren't on the internet or at tai chi, they will actually engage more with the thirtysomething Americans: dramas about Liverpool council estates are far more alien to their experience. TSYB would have to think twice to remember whether a given piece of entertainment was American or not. Notinasnaid 10:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm deeply impressed; Irony mode on:I was tempted to just link to Anti-Americanism, in a sort of crude, pragmatic German way, but that would have been evil.Irony mode off. Lectonar 10:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

American comedy, to most British minds, is formulaic, written to get the highest ratings by appealing to the lowest common denominator, written by preppy young New Yorkers and performed by pretty boys and girls. Compare our idealised view of British comedy, which is an expressive art form, written and performed by tortured geniuses who sacrifice their own happiness to produce their work. Essentially it's contempt, rather than hatred. Henry^Flower 10:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Brits can be divided into groups no more than other population or demographic, we are individuals not members of groups. Philc _T^E_C^I 12:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

American comedy has a reputation for being tired, predictable, playing the same jokes over and over, and being very unsubtle, generally american comedy has a bit of a reputation to be shit. Though this generally applies to your television programmes, and to a lesser extent your comedians (I think Rich Hall is hilarious, though I haven't heard many others). American comedy all seems to be the sort of jokes we came up with in the playground when we were teenagers, use of overstatemnt and ignorance to create awkward situations, which then you can pull maybe a few tired old jokes out of is one particularly common part of american comedy. American comedy also has a reputation for being desperately blunt, whereas as other comedies are much more subtle. Philc _T^E_C^I 11:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Right, Benny Hill is very subtle and cultured humor. User:Angr 12:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Benny Hill is a strange case though. He is often taken as quintessentially British outside Britain, but he hasn't been on TV here for years and was very old-fashioned even when he was around. He is almost better known overseas than in Britain. In any case, the questions was never about whose TV or humour was better or more sophisticated.

And don't forget The Young Ones. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

In the context it's been used, I'm certain it's a matter of linking thirtysomething to a genre of "American" sit-coms. Brits are often quite sniffy about sitcoms from the USA (we don't see many non-British sit-coms that aren't American) and "naff" is exactly the kind of word that's used often to describe them. I generally disagree with pigeon-holing, but what the American networks did to "The Office" almost converted me into a bigot. --Dweller 12:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's not forget moralising. A lot of US shows incorporate elements of characters learning important lessons about life and relationships etc etc. To British sensibilites this comes across as a bit twee and cutesy. Of course, Americans may well feel the same. South Park sends up that kind of thing all the time. Still, it's one of the negative connotations of "American" in relation to television. Mattley ^(Chattley) 12:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Would Brits consider South Park to be "American" in the sense described here? User:Angr 13:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

thirtysomething was not a situation comedy, it was a drama. Viewed with a 21st century lens, it might be seen as laughable, but that doesn't apply to Rob, the protagonist in High Fidelity. I'd guess that in the particular quote mentioned above that Rob's problem with the show is that it's "not-British." He might very well have said something similar about Ballykissangel, substituting "Irish" for "American." --LarryMac 13:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Anyone seen The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou? That's not very formulaic.......most films by Wes Anderson aren't formulaic. The huge amount of people in the United States compells producers to make films this way, but if you go to the Sundance film festival, or any comedy clubs, you will find that there are very varied styles. I suppose if the US was smaller we'd have a more specific sense of humo(u)r. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 16:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Virtually everything on television is brainless twaddle, in the UK as well as the US. However, it's also true that UK television has the advantage of substantial public funding, while virtually everything on American television is entirely commercial. This is bound to drive the quality down. In any case, most people become desensitized to their own culture's stupidities, but rarely to the stupidities of other cultures. Many Britons are wont to think of American shows as essentially low-brow, sentimental, and obvious, just as lots of Americans think of British shows as snobbish and dull, when both have roughly the same ratio of shit jokes to irony. Try comparing both British and American television to, say, Mexican television. Within a country, there may be huge differences between high-brow and low-brow humor. Try comparing The Colbert Report to something like Yes, Dear, which is perhaps the ultimate bad American sitcom. And for every Blackadder, you've got a hundred shows like Two Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps and Meet the Magoons. But I guess they don't export those. Bhumiya (said/done) 20:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Re Notinasnaid's America (understood to be the USA, unusually). This is discussed all over Wikipedia all the time. Citizens of the USA always seem terribly surprised when people from other countries refer to them as Americans. I've never understood what the problem is. Nobody would understand 'American' to mean a person from Brazil, or Canada, or anywhere else in North or South America. People from the USA refer to themselves as American and their country as America all the time ("The American President", "America, America", "God Bless America", "The American Way", etc), so why shouldn't others follow suit. JackofOz 21:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

A vociferous contingent of Spanish-speaking Internet users considers the term "America" to refer exclusively to the Hispanic concept of a single American landmass. Spanish has a convenient term for a citizen of the United States, Estadounidense, and it is only natural to assume that English (and all other languages) should possess an equivalent term. Due to historical weirdness, this is not the case, and most languages use some translation of the word "American" to refer to the nation. This is a bizarrely contentious issue, as this article and its Spanish counterpart, and especially their talk pages, indicate. Some Hispanophones have concluded that the use of the word "American" to describe the United States is nothing less than an act of imperialism, consciously perpetrated by the United States. Anglos tend to disagree with this, which can only mean it is true. A lot of these very Hispanophones seem to have an impression that speakers of other non-English languages share their view, and apparently many culturally sensitive Americans have arrived at the same conclusion, or simply want to seem worldly. Bhumiya (said/done) 21:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the name of the country has been "The United States of America" since 1776, well before there was any significant hispanophone presence, so it's hardly cultural imperialism. Are people just expected to ignore that part of the name? People in the USA can debate what to call their own country, but the rest of the English speaking world refers to it as: "The United States", "The States", "The USA", "The U.S.", or simply "America" - and I doubt anything will ever change. As for adjectives, "Usasian" or whatever are just absurd, and will never catch on even in the U.S., let alone anywhere else. The only reasonable adjective, in my view, is American. Nobody should get excited about this, it's not that big a deal. JackofOz 01:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I fully agree it's a tempest in a teapot. It isn't U.S. citizens who get excited about it. Nevertheless, some umbrageous Hispanophone inhabitants of the Americas feel the need to take offense. There's no audible controversy in the U.S. over the terminology, and most Americans are surprised to learn that Spanish doesn't use the term "Americano" to mean "of the USA". There are, however, some extra-sensitive Americans who use terms like "U.S. citizen" and "U.S. American" when there is no ambiguity, to avoid seeming presumptuous or imperialistic. Bhumiya (said/done) 04:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

If you interpret the name of the country that way (the united states of the whole of America) then the name of the country itself is imperialistic and should be changed. Preferably to something that leaves an unambiguous name for its inhabitants this time. Turns out we've all been barking up the wrong tree. Btw, it's hardly "not that big a deal" if there is so much controversy over it all the time. DirkvdM 07:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

And who exactly would interpret it that way, my friend? Maybe a 5-year-old school child who knows nothing of history or geopolitics. Certainly nobody else does that, or ever would. This has nothing to do with cultural imperialism, and more to do with sour grapes on the part of the hispanophones. If Spain had had its way, all of the Americas would have been part of the Spanish Empire. If that's not cultural imperialism, nothing is. Where's the evidence that the USA has ever wanted to emulate that? There is none. The Portuguese and the British and the French all had their go, too. Saying the USA should change its name is amongst the less enlightened of your contributions to these pages, Dirk. Names for countries and regions differ from language to language. Names for everything differ from language to language. That's why we have translators and interpreters. For the hispanophone lobby to expect the English language to suddenly conform to their view of the world, while accusing the USA of cultural imperialism, is utterly breathtaking hypocrisy. They are the latecomers to the USA. When in Rome etc. JackofOz 10:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's not as though every Hispanophone feels that way, and Spanish-speaking immigrants to the U.S. rarely take issue with English usage. I am not of the "English only" bent, and think it fair that English compete with Spanish in a "marketplace of tongues"—I object only to those Hispanophones who use a simple lacuna as an outlet for rancor. I don't see the need to indict Hispanophones for past imperialism, given that the majority of them these days are descended from the imperialized. The issue, for me, is one of ignorance and linguistic bigotry: to assume that the term "American" is the result of conscious conspiracy on the part of the United States shows a very limited comprehension of the history of the English language, its pluricentrism, and its essential lack of central control. Bhumiya (said/done) 17:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, in Spain, americano can be a synonym for estadounidense or norteamericano. Then again, the term sudamericano can be applied to Mexicans and Dominicans in Spain, something that is really confusing. To be technical neither estadounidense nor norteamericano to mean USA people is unambiguous. Mexicans and Canadians are geographically Northamericans and Mexico is legally Los Estados Unidos Mexicanos. Of course, the whole controversy reflects a larger (and I think more reasonable) resentment. mnewmanqc

In principle, I agree that americano may be used by Hispanophones living outside the Americas, but I believe that even in Spain there is a very strong preference for Estadounidense. I've never in my life heard Norteamericano used to mean "Canadian" or "Mexican", since there are already unambiguous demonyms for these people (canadiense and mexicano respectively). Also, because most Spanish-speakers use the six-continent model and do not divide the new world into North and South America, it would be anomalous for them to use the term Norteamericano in a continental sense. Obviously, the root of the complaint is the long history of Hispanic resentment toward the US, which is of course justified. But it's unfortunate to see legitimate grievances become an excuse for petty bickering. Bhumiya (said/done) 17:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Mattley about the moralising. "Too American" for a drama/comedy to me would suggest too much "message" (families should stick together, father and son stuff) getting in the way of the jokes, action. I regret to say British TV is increasingly going down that road. The clasic British sitcoms had virtually nothing in the way of heart-to-hearts between characters and were the better for it!

"Homicide" for example was great until the characters were suddenly given personal lives, with "issues" to be worked through. Jameswilson 00:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Luckily, there's still stuff like Coupling. DirkvdM 07:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Despite all this cross-Atlantic animosity we manage to build the biggest encyclopedia mankind has ever seen. Maybe there is hope for mankin dafter all. :) DirkvdM 07:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Confused about consonants at the end of French words

In French one doesn't always pronounce all consonants.

Ce sont les filles présentées à Paris. Je vais manger une pomme. C'était parfois une journée.

Please tell me what to do with the consonants in bold, I have used this site but I am in doubt : [[5]]

All extra information on problems like these is welcome!

Thanks,

Evilbu 17:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The general rule about pronouncing final consonants in French is that only C, R, F and L get pronounced -- (the menomic device for English speakers is "CaReFuL". However, this doesn't apply to -er infinatives, which is pronounced like é -- "manger" (mã-zhA) However, when a final consonant is followed immediately by a vowel, it gets pronounced due to the liason effect. So, we have "présentées à Paris" (Présenté za Pari), and "parfois une" (parfoi zune).

In Spoken French this rule is often ignored (like in these two cases), but there are some cases in which no native speaker would drop it. For instance, "ils sont" is pronounced "il sõ" while "ils ont" is pronounced "il zõ". Your website is surprisingly good, by the way, it seems. --Zantastik talk 18:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I'm not sure if these are sentences that a native speaker would say.. "It was sometimes a day" is a little odd-sounding. But then, this was about pronunciation not syntax or style

There are actually very complicated rules about when liaison applies between words and when it doesn't. For example, if an adjective ending in a "silent" consonant precedes a noun starting with a vowel, there's liaison: un grand étudiant has the d pronounced. But if a noun ending in a "silent" consonant precedes an adjective starting with a vowel, there is no liaison: des chevaux espagnols does NOT have the x pronounced. And there are times when it's optional, especially if the silent consonant is preceded by another consonant: in Vous êtes ici you can either pronounce the s of êtes or leave it off, both are right. User:Angr 18:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The technical word here is indeed liaisons, in English or French, and they are certainly dangerous. The sound is not just pronounced but moves to the start of the next syllable: becoming part of how the next word is said. Once you realise this, what you hear, and have perhaps been saying by rote, starts to make more sense. There are liaisons obligatoires (e.g. in les amis, vous avez), times it is forbidden (e.g. in les onze ...) and times you can take your pick (e.g. Je suis allé). I'm struggling with this, but I find this page, and its immediate links, digestible: http://french.about.com/library/pronunciation/bl-liaisons.htm. Notinasnaid 19:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

July 27

Word Translations From English to French & Spanish

I would like to know where I can go to validate some susage instructions that I would like to publish on some cosmetic packages, there are 2 Packages with front and back information. HELP!

This site offers French-Spanish/Spanish-French translation, and it's pretty good for most purposes. Bhumiya (said/done) 04:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Nichevo

There's a Russian word, I think it's transliterated (is that the right word?) as "nichevo", it means something like "there's nothing to be done, it can't be helped." Does anyone know how to pronounce it or how it's written in Russian? Thanks! Emmett5 02:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It's spelled in Russian as ничего. It means "nothing" in the accusative and genitive case. It's pronounced nichivó or in IPA, to the best of my knowledge, [ɲitʃi'vo]. --Chris S. 02:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It's also used colloquially to mean something like a non-enthusiastic "OK", "not bad", or "alright" in answer to "How are you?". JackofOz 06:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Emmett5 19:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

crossword help II

could u help me wid these clues

1 mournfull poem or song -5 (**E*Y)

ELEGY--Anchoress 05:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

2 american - song-6,6 (**N*E*D*O*L*)not sure

Yankey doodle --Kjoonlee 06:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Try yankee doodle. JackofOz 06:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yikes, no wonder [[Yankey Doodle]] didn't work. (I had wanted to link Yankee Doodle.) Thank you. --Kjoonlee 10:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

3 clear mindedness - crappy cities (anag)-12 (***S*I*A*R**)not sure

PERSPICACITY - you must have one of the words crossing this one wrong. --Ptcamn 06:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)it is not fitting is there another word ,please

i think i got the clue "not sound"(7) wrong i tought it was reveled is it correct?

'not sound'? Wouldn't that be SILENCE?--Anchoress 06:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

bend in 2 (with laughter or pain)(6,2) {is it double up}

its not in the sense of noise but mental stability

OK. maybe ERRATIC?--Anchoress 08:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

UNSOUND.

Language check

Is it possible to get someone to check a certain page for mistakes (grammar, spelling, word order etc)? I'm pretty good at English, but I'm by no means an expert. What if I come across an article (or I create an article) and I'm not sure if it's 100% correct from a language point of view? Surerly there are native English users that could easily spot any such mistakes. Giuseppe86 12:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You could add a template ({{copyedit}}) to the page; btw, which article is the one in question? Lectonar 12:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

If you're not sure there are problems, I'd suggest just leaving it- there's enough work to do on articles which we know have problems. Henry^Flower 12:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers. I had no particular article in mind, but since joining I've noticed some doubtful articles, but there's no need to worry. Mostly they're related to Romanian football (one of the reasons I joined this forum was to improve the quality and quantity of articles related to this subject, but I realize this isn't a particularly high importance topic, so I'm in no hurry). There have been a few pages where I see many poeple have edited and not all contributions were written in proper English. I've tried to sort them out myself, but as I said I'm no expert. I only asked so I know what I should do as a last resort measure. Greets! Giuseppe86 12:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Basilic

The Ottomans used the Basilic cannon in an attempt to breach the Walls of Constantinople. What's Basilic mean? It's obviously related to basileus but I can't figure out the exact meaning.--199.89.64.177 18:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Wild, unfounded speculation: it's not related to basilisk by chance, is it? —Bkell (talk) 18:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Or maybe it's just named after a guy called Basil. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 18:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Just a guess, but perhaps it was housed in, or designed to protect, the basilica?--Shantavira 18:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it simply means king cannon along the lines of tsar bomba MeltBanana 19:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Inflection in Indo-European languages

I have two questions:

1. What is the most heavily synthetic Indo-European language ever? Am I correct in thinking that Proto-Indo-European was more synthetic than any of its daughter languages?

2. Is there any living Romance language (apart from Eastern Romance) with a complex case system? By "complex", I include any sort of regular declension, even if only into an oblique case. I know Old French had this feature.

Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 18:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It used to be the consensus among PIEheads that PIE exhibited a highly complex synthetic grammar that has become progressively less synthetic as the languages have split and changed. That would make PIE the most synthetic IE language, but it is quite hypothetical. This view combined the most juicy bits of Sanskrit, Balto-Slavic and Hittite grammar. However, there is a serious questioning as to whether all the rich features of these languages were present in PIE, or whether they developed independentaly, perhaps with contact with non-IE languages. Then the problem is comparison: different languages can show a similar amount of synthetic features in their grammar, but show them in completely different ways. Thus, we cannot easily construct a mono-dimensional spectrum of amount of synthetic grammar. I'm not sure about Romance languages. You are right in saying that the general trend in Western Romance is towards more analytical grammar. — Gareth Hughes 19:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Gareth. I have heard that the trend from synthetic to analytical language is not a hard and fast rule, and certainly any attempt to reconstruct PIE grammar must be highly speculative. I wonder if there has ever been a clear case of a language, IE or not, becoming substantially more synthetic. I think that would be an interesting process to study. Bhumiya (said/done) 20:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)