Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard
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| Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) | ||||||||||||
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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| Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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| Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
| Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV | Resolved | Avi8tor (t) | 15 days, 13 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 4 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 4 hours |
| Norse Deity pages | In Progress | Dots321 (t) | 8 days, 2 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, | Chino-Catane (t) | 21 hours |
| List of South Korean girl groups | Closed | 98Tigerius (t) | 7 days, 20 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 11 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 11 hours |
| Benevolent dictatorship | New | Banedon (t) | 7 days, 1 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, |
| Talk:Taylor Swift | Closed | Gsgdd (t) | 6 days, 18 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 6 days, 4 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 6 days, 4 hours |
| Kylie Minogue | New | PHShanghai (t) | 4 days, 9 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 3 days, 5 hours | PHShanghai (t) | 1 days, 21 hours |
| African diaspora | New | Kyogul (t) | 1 days, 3 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 4 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 4 hours |
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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 00:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Current disputes
Talk:Jim Chappell#Use of Scaruffi web site
– Discussion in progress.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- NewYorkActuary (talk · contribs)
- Woovee (talk · contribs)
- Chubbles (talk · contribs)
- Sergecross73 (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
This is a slow-motion edit war, the topic of dispute being an external link used in the article's "Further Reading" section. The section (and link) was added by the filing party, but has been persistently removed by the non-filing party. In doing so, the non-filing party cites a one-day discussion on the talk page of a project which is not a "sponsor" of the instant article (i.e., the article does not lie within the scope of that project). Furthermore, the purported consensus reached during that one-day discussion was seriously flawed, for reasons both procedural and factual. The filing party asserts that the only operative requirements for the instant article are those found in WP:EL, and that the particular link in question meets those requirements.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
A third-opinion request led to the fashioning of a compromise, which was rejected by the non-filing party. The filing party also offered to engage in mediation, but this offer was not accepted.
How do you think we can help?
A moderated discussion will provide a necessary basis for clarifying and resolving the issues in dispute.
Summary of dispute by Woovee
Summary of dispute by Chubbles
The debate concerns the inclusion of referencing material written by Piero Scaruffi, whose status as a reliable source was rejected by a consensus of Wikipedians a few years ago because he was self-published in the area of music. NewYorkActuary wished to include, on the Jim Chappell page, a link to Scaruffi's website where Chappell's work was discussed. This was reverted by Woovee, who pointed to the consensus that Scaruffi was not a reliable source. NewYorkActuary was able to demonstrate that the consensus had overlooked a crucial piece of evidence: Scaruffi had, indeed, been published in music, by a major Italian publishing house, Arcana Editrice. According to the link on Scaruffi's site, the material NewYorkActuary wished to include was published (with slight revisions) in one of those Arcana publications. Woovee maintained that the inclusion of any link to Scaruffi's website violated the consensus, even if it were just a convenience link to the content that had been published elsewhere by a peer-reviewed print publisher.
I ordered the Scaruffi book from an interlibrary loan service, to confirm that it was editorially reviewed and that the Chappell article was in the book; it was, but there were slight differences in wording between the published version and the online mirror on Scaruffi's website. NewYorkActuary wishes to include the convenience link for the use of readers who want to verify the content of the book reference; Woovee has allowed for the print publication to be included on the article, but reverts all inclusion of the convenience link. For me, the debate hinges on whether the additions on Scaruffi's website are de minimis or not; I see no good reason to exclude a convenience link if the text is exactly the same as in a reliable print publication, but there are some minor differences between what's in the print version and the version on Scaruffi's website, which do not appreciably affect the content of what the sourcing was meant to cover. Lastly, this new evidence indicates that the consensus that Scaruffi is an unreliable author on music needs reexamination. Since he has been published, more than once, by a major music publisher, I'd argue that this may make his website "fair game" for sourcing once again, as a recognized authority in the field. Chubbles (talk) 21:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Sergecross73
After a series of disputes regarding the use of Piero Scaruffi work as a source in in music articles, I facilitated a discussion at WP:ALBUMS, which unanimously decided that he was not an authority on music unless his work was published by a third party publisher. Over 10 editors participated at this discussion held at the WikiProject level, many of them long-term and experienced editors. The current consensus is to only use his published work on Wikipedia, a consensus no one has attempted to change in these discussions, so its rather bizarre they didn't go there before coming to DRN.
Regardless, linking to PS's personal blog as an external link not only violates the consensus, and WP:SPS in general, but conceptually adds very little to the article anyways, as its written entirely in Italian, something not readable by a vast majority of English readers anyways. Its inclusion creates virtually no benefit to the reader. Its truly baffling how he's still arguing over such a minor thing, or that he even refuses the compromise I proposed, which was adding a book that published PS's work about the subject in a "Further Reading" section, which at least wouldn't violate the active consensus. Sergecross73 msg me 20:33, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Talk:Jim Chappell#Use of Scaruffi web site discussion
DRN coordinator's note: I've added a couple of parties who have been involved in the recent discussion and will notify them. Let me note that there's been plenty of discussion and the other editor, Woovee, has already been notified. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:15, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Opening statement by volunteer
My name is thehistorian10, and I am the volunteer who will be mediating this case. I see that the parties have attempted to discuss this matter, and have not yet resolved their dispute through previous efforts.
Let me just begin by setting out the ground rules. Please do not edit the article in dispute during this process - it means we are all working with the same material. Second, please respect that some of us come from differing time zones, and may not be able to respond immeidately, so please give it a day or two after your posting, if you are expecting a response. Thirdly, this is meant to be an informal mediation. It is not designed to be another forum for your self-described "slow edit war". Therefore, I will not tolerate any attacks of any kind against me, or another participant. See my comments about civility below. This is because I am trying to help everyone here - and there are multiple parties to this case - reach a solution that they can agree on. I should say that if there is any uncivil behaviour (which, based on the talk page, there hasn't been so far), I might have to collapse the uncivil spats into an archive box, so they can be out of the way. I also expect a degree of cooperation from parties, because solutions to these debates can only come around through compromise and cooperation. If there is no obvious cooperation or discussion, I may close this as a failed case.
As I understand the debate, this centres around the validity of a certain proposed source, authored by someone who has apparently been discredited by the Wikipedia community. I'm not going to question that decision, but I would like to know what information the filing party seeks to get from the source? The Historian (talk) 20:40, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Response from NewYorkActuary to moderator's questions
When I checked in here yesterday, this topic had disappeared from the page. But everything seems to have been corrected since then.
The material in question is a critical assessment of a particular musician's recorded output. As such, it provides appropriate "Further Reading" in an article about that musician. Although it might have been possible to incorporate that material into the article itself, I had two concerns about doing so. First, the amount of material in the reading's assessment was much greater than the amount of material that could be gleaned from other sources. Using it in the "Critical Reception" section of the article might have given the appearance of placing undue weight on the opinion of this one expert. And second, bringing in enough of that material to fill in the gaps left by the other sources might have raised questions of copyright violations (based on the amount of imported material compared to the total amount in the reading). For these reasons, listing it as a "Further Reading" was the best use of the material and was justified under criterion #3 of WP:ELYES.
I have two comments on procedural matters. First, Woovee (the editor I described as the "non-filing party") has not yet appeared in this discussion. We have had opening statements from the two additional editors who were added to the list by this page's coordinator. Although I believe that useful discussion can take place amongst the three of us, I note that neither of the additional editors was the one who was engaged in the persistent reverting of edits.
Second, I am concerned about your statement that you will not "question the decision" regarding prior discussion of the author. The scope and validity of that talk-page discussion back in 2014 is the central issue here today, and not examining that discussion is tantamount to pre-judging the merits of the case. I pray that you reconsider your position on this. The 2014 talk-page discussion is here.
Thank you for your volunteer efforts. NewYorkActuary (talk) 23:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
volunteer's further statement
In my view, the debate over whether to use that particular source has already been an gone, and I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate to reopen it here, given that it was concretely decided by the Community that it should not be used on Wikipedia. What I'm getting at is this - is it possible to get at the underlying information, from another source? Remember, I am attempting to find a solution that all partie will agree on, and I assume that whilst everyone agrees that the information should go in somehow, the main dispute is about the sources used, so it is sensible to suggest that contributors look to other sources or that same information. Now, I am willing to reconsider that position if it turns out that the source under dispute is the one and only source where we can get this information from.
Having said that, if none of the others participate within a day or so, I am thinking of closing thi, because mediation, and dispute resolution is ineffective when there is only one active party.
- Thank you for your response.
- My position in this dispute is partly based on the assertion that opinions formed on the talk page of any particular WikiProject are not binding on articles outside the scope of that WikiProject. SergeCross disagrees. One of the benefits of moderated discussion is that both sides will have an opportunity to present arguments in support of their positions, and to do so with a degree of structure that we were not able to achieve on the article's talk page. Unfortunately, your response indicates that you have indeed pre-judged the merits of the case, by stating that the one-day discussion held in 2014 on the Albums project talk page resulted in a guideline that (to use your words) "was concretely decided by the Community that it should not be used on Wikipedia". I respect your opinion on this and do not seek to change it. Instead, I invoke my right to object to your continued participation in this dispute and ask that you withdraw from it.
- Thank you again for your volunteer efforts. NewYorkActuary (talk) 19:03, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Uh, this isn't a court trial where you call a mistrial or something. Its a volunteer that tries to settle a dispute. You may not like the suggestion, but its not invalid or out of line. Sergecross73 msg me 13:04, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- I fully support this request's closure. Its very simple. I started up a discussion at the WikiProject level to stop disputes like this. A clear, strong consensus was formed. We have a person or two who aren't happy with this consensus. That's fine, they don't have to be, and hey, sometimes, consensus can change even. But the way to changing that would be to start a new discussion at the same WikiProject, not jumping over to DRN. In short, they haven't even attempted to solve this at the appropriate venue. Sergecross73 msg me 13:04, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the opportunity to clarify my statement.
- SergeCross, I truly do wish to engage in structured discussion of the issues that bring us here. And that discussion can be fruitful. If you present convincing reasons as to why opinions stated on the talk page of a WikiProject are binding on articles outside the scope of that project, then we will have taken a big step towards resolving this dispute. If you can present arguments that convince us that the opinions stated during that one-day discussion back in 2014 remain valid even after their underlying premise has been discredited, we will have moved another step forward. And if you can offer a convincing argument as to why WP:ALBUMS is (to use your phrase) the "appropriate venue" for resolving a dispute arising in an article subject not to WP:ALBUMS, but to WP:MUSICIANS, then we will have taken yet another step towards resolving this matter.
- But we are faced with a moderator who has, twice now, declared that he has no intention of fostering this discussion. And his reason for not doing so is that he has already decided that your position is the correct one. Furthermore, he states that decision prior to hearing any arguments and without citing any policy or guidelines. No, SergeCross, the moderator's statement was not a suggestion—it was a declaration of bias. Although I salute the moderator's candor on this point, I still believe that a fair and fruitful discussion can not take place if it is moderated by someone who has pre-judged the issues.
- It is also relevant to point out that, after receiving my response to his initial clarifying question, the moderator then disappeared for seven days. I recognize, of course, that 'real life' takes precedence over Wikipedia. I am also not overly concerned by the moderator's failure to apologize for making the three of us wait for his return. But I am very much concerned that the moderator did not acknowledge that the lack of progress here was due to his disappearance, let alone offer any assurances that another lengthy hiatus will not occur after the discussion has begun. In this regard, I note that in the two years prior to volunteering to moderate, the volunteer made only 5 edits on Wikipedia, 3 of them to his own user pages. I question whether the moderator has truly made a commitment to see this process through to its conclusion.
- I maintain my objection to the continued participation of this volunteer. NewYorkActuary (talk) 17:42, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion was held at WP:ALBUMS, but the concept discussed was entirely about using Scaruffi's work in general, nothing about the actual message of the discussion would render it only relevant to albums. It was held at WP:ALBUMS because his work was being used more frequently at album articles. There is no conceptual reason in the discussions as to why it wouldn't be held towards musicians - if anything WP:BLPs are held to an even higher standard than album articles, making your proposal have even more hurdles to overcome. All in all - you're missing the point, which is that you skipped discussing at any relevant WikiProjects, or WP:RFCs, or any of the venues you'd usually go to prior to DRN. (Ironically, probably only to have it be thrown out due to your bad-faith assumptions on the moderator and hangup on semantics in the end anyways.) Sergecross73 msg me 00:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
DRN coordinator's note: Under our rules here at DRN, "If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute." At this point it is incumbent upon Thehistorian10 to do one or the other of those. Having said that, let me comment that it is fixed policy that a consensus formed at a Wikiproject cannot bind the result over a range or class of articles unless the steps needed to create a policy or guideline are followed. The reason for that belief is, first, CONLIMITED which is part of the consensus policy, which says in pertinent part,
"Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope. WikiProject advice pages or template documentation written by a single individual or several participants who have not formally been approved by the community through the policy and guideline proposal process have no more status than an essay."
This is, second, confirmed by the PROJPAGE guideline which is part of the WikiProject Council Guideline, which says in pertinent part:
"Many large WikiProjects eventually collect some advice about how to apply Wikipedia's policies, guidelines, and essays to their specific subject area. This advice, sometimes in a separate advice page, sometimes in a section of the WikiProject's main page, is often excellent, and may helpfully consolidate and explain the specific details of many site-wide policies and guidelines, the application of which to a particular context might otherwise be a source of confusion among editors. ... However, in a few cases, projects have wrongly used these pages as a means of asserting ownership over articles within their scope, such as insisting that all articles that interest the project must contain a criticism section or must not contain an infobox, or that a specific type of article can't be linked in navigation templates, and that other editors of the article get no say in this because of a 'consensus' within the project. An advice page written by several participants of a project is a 'local consensus' that is no more binding on editors than material written by any single individual editor. Any advice page that has not been formally approved by the community through the WP:PROPOSAL process has the actual status of an optional essay."
(Emphasis added.) Both CONLIMITED and PROJPAGE existed prior to the RfCs referenced in this dispute. However, having said that, while that consensus cannot be cited as a formal guideline or policy to decide this dispute, that doesn't mean that the reasoning for it coming out the way that it did should not prove persuasive in resolving this dispute as well unless something has changed to improve Scaruffi's reliability in the nearly two years since end of the second RfC. My recommendation would be that the discussion return to the article talk page to proceed in that light and that those who wish for the consensus decision to control over a group or range of articles to file a new RFC to turn it into a formal policy or guideline, following the methods recommended at WP:PROPOSAL. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 04:51, 29 March 2016 (UTC) PS: Let me also note that as a local consensus which decides whether or not a particular source is reliable, anything other than a guideline or policy expressly interpreting or modifying the verifiability policy is particularly doubtful since local consensuses may not supersede that policy per this Arbcom ruling and, somewhat indirectly, this formal guideline. For a local consensus to hold that a particular source is reliable when it is not, or vice versa, would seem to be expressly in violation of those authorities. — TransporterMan (TALK) 05:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Talk:Cryonics#Analysis of_Wikipedia_policy_in_context_of_the_.22Scientists_Open_Letter_on_Cryonics.22
– New discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Talk:Cryonics#Analysis of Wikipedia policy in context of the .22Scientists Open Letter on Cryonics.22 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Nome77 (talk · contribs)
- David Gerard (talk · contribs)
- Cryobiologist (talk · contribs)
- JzG (talk · contribs) aka Guy
- MjolnirPants (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
I'm trying to include the core (premise/point of view) of cryonicists (as a group) in the cryonics article. This point of view is most clearly and reputably represented by the "Scientists Open Letter on Cryonics". Even though the inclusion of this open letter easily meets NPOV and RS guidelines, one editor who is a critic of cryonics is blocking the inclusion of this content. At least two editors agree that the content should be included, especially considering all the critical opinions which are already there. The editor who is blocking the content has provided very little discussion on the topic, while I have pursued discussion extensively and in good faith. The "scientists open letter" in question is referenced multiple places, including on the national Institute of health website, a few printed books, and several news sources. It should be noted that this point of view, and -any- point of view held by cryonicists, is certainly a minority point of view (because they are a minority group). It is easy to make sure that this minority status is represented with the discussed content.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I tried to talk with the objecting editor on the talk page. They write very little in response, mostly making claims that none of the provided sources are reputable. (Regardless of their reputability).
How do you think we can help?
Read through the arguments I have made on the talk page. Especially my references and interpretations of Wikipedia policy on these matters. Let any other editors know if you think that my representation of Wikipedia policy on this matter is correct, or incorrect. I believe that comments from an authoritative third-party on whether the discussed policies are accurate, or inaccurate, could help resolve this dispute.
Summary of dispute by David Gerard
Summary of dispute by Cryobiologist
Nome77 (talk · contribs) has proposed adding an entire new section to the Cryonics article solely devoted to discussion of a document called The Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics. I believe brief mention of this Letter is warranted, but not an entire section devoted to it.
The Cryonics article in question already contains quotes from scientists critical of cryonics sourced from single newspaper stories. Since the existence of the Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics is mentioned in multiple newspaper articles, books, and journal articles, it is legitimate to mention the existence of the Letter in the article about cryonics. Mention in just one mainstream media source, such as the China Daily newspaper article[1] should give the Letter the same standing as a single-article quote of an individual scientist. The Letter exists (not in dispute), and was deemed worthy of mention in newspapers and books, including books not about cryonics by neutral authors, just as criticisms of cryonics have been deemed newsworthy in various newspaper stories.
JzG (talk · contribs) noted that the organization currently hosting the Open Letter is insignificant and has a vested interest in topic of cryonics, but agrees that the conclusion can be drawn from reliable sources that the Letter does in fact exist. JzG further said that the purported sources citing the letter appear at first glance to be churnalism of a press release. The only source I can see that did this is the Canadian Medical Association Journal,[2] a mainstream medical journal that deemed a press release referencing the Letter worthy of mention, as did an Australian newspaper story.
Rather than an entire section worded as though it was an extension of the Letter website, I proposed adding the following neutral paragraph to the existing Reception section of the article. Nome77 (talk · contribs) deleted this paragraph, and took the proposal for adding a whole section about the Letter to dispute resolution before other editors could comment on the below paragraph.
- With the adoption of ice-free preservation methods (vitrification) in cryonics at the beginning of the 21st Century, several dozen scientists began signing an open letter expressing a minority view that there is "a credible possibility" that cryonics performed with contemporary technology under ideal conditions might preseve enough brain information to allow future revival..[3][4][5][6] The letter disclaims endorsement of any particular cryonics organization or its practices. As of 2016, the letter had 69 signatories.[7] Cryobiologist (talk) 18:17, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
References
- ^ Xinhua (22 September 2015). "Frozen Chinese body prompts hot debate". China Daily. Retrieved 22 March 2016.
- ^ "Briefly". Canadian Medical Association Journal. 184 (11): E597–E601. August 2012. doi:10.1503/cmaj.109-4247. PMC 3414624.
- ^ "Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics". Institute for Evidence Based Cryonics. 2016-03-22. Retrieved 2016-03-22.
- ^ Xinhua (22 September 2015). "Frozen Chinese body prompts hot debate". China Daily. Retrieved 22 March 2016.
- ^ "Briefly". Canadian Medical Association Journal. 184 (11): E597–E601. August 2012. doi:10.1503/cmaj.109-4247. PMC 3414624.
- ^ Igor Levenberg (2009). "Personal Revival Trusts: If You Can't Take It with You, Can You Come Back To Get It?". St. John's Law Review. 83 (4): 1469–1500.
- ^ "Scientists' Open Letter on Cryonics". Institute for Evidence Based Cryonics. 2016-03-22. Retrieved 2016-03-22.
Summary of dispute by JzG
One editor with no other interests wants to include a substantial paragraph, in fact an entire section, on an "open letter" (essentially an online petition) signed by a small number of scientists who support the statement that cryonics is a legitimate field of inquiry. Others have noted some issues with this:
- The petition is run by a group with a vested interest in promoting cryonics.
- The group is of no objectively provable significance.
- The most that can be drawn from reliable independent sources is that it exists, the balance is based on the letter itself and promotion of it on the sponsoring organisation (this group and its website fail WP:RS).
- When you look into the purported sources, they turn out to be very brief and at first glance appear to be churnalism, based entirely on press release material.
So, the "dispute" is between one newly registered SPA who likely thinks we are "suppressing information" and a group of long-standing editors with very large numbers of edits across multiple subjects.
We would need, I think, a categorical assurance from the OP that they would accept a result that went against them, otherwise any DR process would be a complete waste of time. Long experience suggests to me that this is one of those users who only accepts the answer they want. Guy (Help!) 14:02, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by MjolnirPants
The issue I see here is one of balancing weight between POVs. On the one hand, we have reliable sources stating one thing. On the other, we have unreliable sources stating something else. On top of that, we have a new user interpreting various sources to support the claims of the unreliable source. This seems pretty clear cut to me. We don't give undue weight to fringe POVs. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 17:21, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Nome77
I opened the dispute, so my summary is started in the "Dispute overview". Below are my comments on the issues mentioned by other editors. If this is not the correct place for my thoughts on dispute issues, please let me know where they should go rather than reverting my dispute comments. (Looking at you, JzG). This will be my final input in the header of this dispute, unless additions are requested. Thank you.
(Re Cryobiologists summary): I believe the proposal offered by Cryobiologist is an equitable resolution, and I would support that proposal. The only thing I would add to his text is to change "scientists" to "prominent scientists" or "respected scientists". Several secondary sources refer to them as such, and a lookup of any of the signatories names makes their distinction within their fields fairly obvious.
(Re JzG point 1a) The open letter is not a petition, a petition is defined by the dictionary as a "request for action", and no action is requested by the letter. The letter is better described as a consensus statement for the group of 69 signatories, about their point of view on cryonics from their scientific perspective. The open letter is more specifically an attempt to make their voice and opinion heard. (Which is also the goal of this dispute). (Re JzG point 1b) Yes, the open letter is currently hosted by group with an interest in cryonics, but the letter is not "run" by them. The open letter was originally created in 2004, about six years before the domain on which it is currently hosted existed (domain was created in 2010). This can be verified by looking at the signatory dates and looking at history of the "evidencebasedcryonics.org" domain name as reported by archive.org. (Re JzG Point 2) The word "significance" is always subjective, not objective unless the criteria for significance is clearly specified. Each signatory is a prominent name within their listed scientific or medical field, which means that the group is not significant, but the individuals are significant. (Re JzG Point 3) The fact that the hosting site has an interest and cryonics does not make the hosting site fail WP:RS. The WP:RS policy states about biased sources: "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.". As you mentioned, the open letter is also referenced by multiple independent sources, which certainly do not fail WP:RS. The references include the National Institute of Health. Several of the references do discuss some aspects of the letter beyond its existence. Most mention a key point that the letter has been signed by prominent scientists. Several of them also describe the content of the letter. There is little further in-depth discussion of letter in the references, because the letter is mostly used for its intended purpose, which is to present the viewpoint of the signatories as it is written. (Re JzG Point 4) I agree with CryoBiologist that the sources are not churnalism, and neither are all the sources brief. The "St. John's Law Review" article is 33 pages long, with 2 pages dedicated to discussing the feasibility of cryonics. (Re JzG ending points) More than one editor supports the goal of this dispute. See CryoBiologists dispute summary. Yes, I will accept the conclusion of the dispute resolution process, including one that goes against my preferences. However, as Robert McClenon notes, this dispute resolution process may or may not require and include Formal Mediation.
(Re MjolnirPants Summary) While the opinion of leading scientists who are interested in cryonics is certainly a minority opinion (and should be stated as such), it is certainly a common viewpoint -within the population of people who are interested in Cryonics-. Cryonicists (who, as documented, number in the thousands) would certainly not participate in cryonics unless they held some belief that there was a nonzero possibility that cryonics could work.
(Unrelated addition) I should note that every editor who opposes this content, has a long-standing list of edits in the page history that mostly change the article in such a way as to be negative toward cryonics (anti-cryonics). Therefore, while I generally try to assume good intent towards NPOV, I do think it's a possibility that the individual beliefs of the opposing editors is fueling their passion in excluding this viewpoint, in the same way that my own beliefs fuel my desire to include this viewpoint. However, I don't want the article to become one-sided, I only wanted to follow the policies specified in NPOV, specifically regarding including all minority viewpoints, and describing debates rather than participating in them. -- Nome77 (talk) 22:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Talk:Cryonics#Analysis of_Wikipedia_policy_in_context_of_the_.22Scientists_Open_Letter_on_Cryonics.22 discussion
- Volunteer note - There has been considerable discussion on the article talk page, in several sections. Most of the editors have been notified of this filing, but one has not. When that one is notified, and if other parties agree, this case can be opened for moderated discussion. If this case is opened for moderated discussion, it may include all of the recent cryonics-related issues on the talk page, not just one issue. I will note that, with this number of parties, DRN is likely to be feasible, but may not be conclusive, in which case it may result in a referral to formal mediation. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:39, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- I checked each editor talk page, and it appears that each listed editor has now either been notified of the dispute or has commented on the dispute. (including David Gerard). Thanks. -- Nome77 (talk) 00:04, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Talk:Seth Rollins#The_Sting_quote_is_MISLEADING_as_hell
– New discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Talk:Seth Rollins#The Sting quote is MISLEADING as hell (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- 62.19.63.157 (talk · contribs)
- 93.44.152.168 (talk · contribs)
- LM2000 (talk · contribs)
- B. Mastino (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
An old, veteran wrestler has described another young colleague as "the most talented he has ever seen or worked with" in an interview. This has been reported in the intro of aforementioned young wrestler. My friend and I tried to point out what we feel to be some issues inherent to reporting that statement per se and removing its supposed contextualization. Moreover, we are questioning the validity of the source (the veteran wrestler spoke as such in an interview made by the young wrestler's own employing company) and the true meaning behind the words "most talented". If you read the interview in its entirety, it becomes apparent - at least to us - that the "talent" the old wrestler is mentioning is just the young wrestler's ability to keep doing quality work with a higher working schedule than normal during the time they had worked together (in other words: being resourceful professionally and consistent in his work); a wrestling fan would probably take a broader, decontextualized, "the most talented" as in "the most charismatic, the best in the ring" or a combination of both. Both my friend and I think that reporting a stray interview to introduce a concept like "being the best ever" - when there would't even a general consensus about it - it's not really encyclopedic per se; that, and we find the act of removing the context questionable from a journalistic point of view. In addition, there are a lot of other interviews about this or that wrestler that are not reported on Wikipedia; rightly so, in our opinion, because if someone started to report every time a wrestler speaks about someone else biographies of living people would get arguably cluttered. We can't edit the page and we have been invited to desist.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
We proposed to either remove the stray interview for keeping a concise, objective intro, or to at least add another interview of another veteran to reinforce the claim, rewording it in what we would feel to be a more sober fashion: "Seth Rollins' work has been praised by industry veterans such as Sting [1] and Triple H [2]" instead of "Industry veteran Sting has described Seth Rollins' as the most talented wrestler he's ever seen, or worked, with". We've been turned down.
How do you think we can help?
It is our belief that the editors are just really passionate about Rollins and probably assumed the interview was undoubtedly worthy of Wikipedia. Both removing the stray interview, added in all likelihood just to give Rollins' intro more "oomph", or expanding the claim in the intro by adding a second opinion (see above) for added credibility while writing it more conservatively seem like reasonable resolutions to us.
Summary by 62.19.63.157: This isn't quite the same IP... but who is writing is, in fact, the same guy who started the discussion in the first place. You are welcome to start an investigation if you wish, the only thing you'll find out is that those are different dynamic IPs always belonging to two different, real Italian internet providers (which by the way should be known to you already, if you bothered to go all the way to double-check) and that only TWO people discussed with you on the matter. So no sock-puppets involved... if you need video proof next, we'll be glad to give it to you. 😊
Now, on-topic: the only counter-argument to everything we've said, before shifting the topic to us, is that "no one made a fuss about it before", "we are just reporting what it's said". I can fully understand that, but let me ask then: does Wikipedia, or media in general, report everything just because "it has been said"?
Besides being "recent", a journal reports something if it's truthful, unequivocal and of interest. That's why in Hulk Hogan's intro you don't report "Hogan has been known in recent times for his racial slurs". Or why you don't report every single time a wrestler compliments one another: why THIS wrestler and not THAT wrestler? Just saw recently that, on Kurt Angle's Facebook page, Angle wrote that Rey Mysterio is "legendary". Is it true Angle said so? Yes. Should it appear on Mysterio's page now? Well... hold on. Let's think about it.
The issue, here, is understanding if Sting saying Rollins is all the three things I mentioned above. What emerged is:
- The average reader may reach one conclusion reading the excerpt from Wikipedia and another one reading the entire interview. This means Sting's words may be misleading if not taken in-context. I won't even start with how it may be simple flattery on Sting's part or how the WWE may be doing self-promotion there through Sting.
- While "Sting said Rollins is the best" is true, Sting's statement isn't really reflective of what the "wrestling business" would think as a whole. Excerpts from interviews in Wikipedia, in my experience, are generally instrumental to summarize long pieces of informations reflective of what, to be simple, the majority would agree with. Like "Boxe critics A, B and C all agree that Muhammad Ali is one of the best boxers of all time".
Here the wrestling community, veterans and experts alike, would at most agree that Rollins is "very talented". Sending a message like "Rollins is more talented than Ric Flair because Sting said so" can't really sound fair to what most critics and fans would think.
The quote should be removed. It's as simple as that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolph_Ziggler doesn't say Jim Ross said Ziggler is the best seller ever in his blog. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rey_Mysterio doesn't say that Rey is "legendary" according to Kurt Angle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Guerrero doesn't say that, according to CM Punk, Eddie Guerrero is the "best wrestler ever" and "better than Ric Flair and Stone Cold"... which would be quite less equivocal than our friend Sting's statement taken in-context. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bryan won't say he's been labeled as the best wrestler alive by Angle.
I don't think it's really a matter of personal taste about Rollins, here. It's about format and guidelines. 04:02, 27 March 2016 (UTC)5.168.194.198 (talk)
Summary of dispute by 93.44.152.168
The article was clearly written by some Rollins' fan. The simple fact the two users are still remarking it can't/ shouldn't be reworded regardless even if it meant adding more sources, therefore at least trying to be more informative, is confirming this.
Now, I'm pretty darn sure I could just post this on a wrestling forum and most wrestling fans would basically agree on one or more of these four points:
- It's really hard to agree that Seth Rollins is "the most talented wrestler Sting has ever worked with".
- Sting said so because it was an interview with WWE.com, and both himself and Rollins' are employees of the WWE: it's like asking one McDonald's manager what he thinks about McDonald's Big Mac and reporting "top manager of McDonald's said the Big Mac is the best hamburger ever" in the intro of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac.
- There is very little encyclopedic value in the fact "guy A said guy B is the best" when there's not even a general consensus that guy A is the best. In other words, I have a hard time believing that, as of today, you will find that many people in the pro-wrestling industry or wrestling fans saying Rollins' is among the most talented wrestlers ever. Maybe among "the very talented today", but among everyone?
- The actual context and motivations may not even reflect such a broad claim in the eyes' of the reader.
To sum it up, Sting said this in an interview? Cool, but so what? Why is Rollins' even supposed to receive special treatment when intros of other wrestlers entries never mention stray interviews unless there is a general consensus confirming the interview's claims (for the biggest names in the industry, usually)? See Austin and Rock being some of the biggest draws, same for Hogan, same for Thesz?
Wrestler CM Punk (another veteran, 10 year plus of experience) said in an interview that Eddie Guerrero is the best ever. Not reported, and I can see the reason behind that. The opinion of CM Punk, if it isn't reflective of the majority of the wrestling community, is hardly worthy of being reported. Wrestler Kurt Angle (another veteran, 16 years of experience) said in an interview that Daniel Bryan is the best worker alive. Not reported, more or less for the same reasons.
Wikipedia is supposed to be reporting facts of importance to every reader. Ten months and no one will remember "oh, Sting said Rollins is the best" in a semi-obscure interview for WWE.com. A semi-obscure interview which would make 99% of the wrestling world disagree with its content, nevertheless. Wikipedia should be written conservatively. That's why we proposed to at least give the claim a little more credibility by adding another interview reinforcing the generally good reception Rollins' received as a performer... it would be more informative, and it would be more reflective of reality, through informations the average reader would find useful: the information in this case being that Rollins, among fellow wrestlers is generally seen as a talented worker. Not self-serving claims like "Sting said Rollins is the best"... so, hey, you should believe it too.
I want to mention the article has been rated "C" in the quality scale: this may imply some kind of bias or some need for clarity or balance.
It may have some gaps or missing elements; need editing for clarity, balance, or flow; or contain policy violations, such as bias or original research.
The editors are over-protective of the article intro. If they want to make the intro more down-to-earth instead of a celebration of Seth Rollins's incredible abilities just because a veteran happened to praise him, I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to add more sources. And one more thing. Threatening us with investigations to sockpuppetry is rather... unbecoming? We live close to one another and we're supposed to be the same person? Couldn't we be friends who stumbled upon the page together? In any way, you can even open an investigation if you really want to, but the replies have been made from different networks, dynamic IPs (at least in my case) and quite some miles away from one another. That being said, how it's supposed to be relevant in determining if this or that belongs to a Wikipedia article is beyond me.
Update of 03.27.2016: In response to LM2000's latest arguments: I'm afraid that I, at least, had already tried to tell you both we were different people on the talking page. Yet, there you go treating us as sock-puppets here. All right, no problem and no hard feelings. Now, proving that other wrestlers occasionally report interviews' excerpts still won't disprove that the majority of all other wrestlers' article, which most of the times do not report excerpts - reasons being clarity, equity and being synthetical - and when they do almost every time the rationale is that they would reflect the mos maiorum of a significant number of people. Therefore, it stands to reason that if there is a rule, it isn't "if a veteran said so it should absolutely be reported". Even wrestlers who were actually as or more praised than Rollins (and no, The Rock would be more akin to the examples about Wikipedia simply confirming a well-known fact within the industry; I would second-guess the Melina one; besides, may I point out that they are all retired veterans or basically retired veterans while Rollins, 29 years old, is a relatively young worker with decent experience in his prime?) did not receive this special treatment. See: Daniel Bryan's example above. See: Eddie Guerrero's example above. I don't see why Rollins should be favored here.
I vehemently deny the fact it would be obfuscation. It's not "obfuscation" if there are issue with the context and you limit yourself to report the unequivocal part. The other user made a pretty poignant example:
1. Chef A is interviewed about "Chef B". "What do you think about B?". 2. Chef A answers: "He's the best I've ever seen... (because) he makes the best pizzas ever!". 3. Wikipedia reports "Chef A described Chef B as the best". 4. Someone reads it: the best in what? The best chef seems like the most direct interpretation. 5. Reader looks at the article in its entirity: finds out Chef A had simply praised Chef B's pizzas. "But that wasn't what I had thought while reading on Wikipedia". Yep, because the wording in the source is ambiguous while the excerpt itself removes the ambiguity (an arbitrary process).
Being a journalist in real life, I'm very wary of "framing effects"... and this is the epitome of one. You want to cast attention on something to obtain an effect: therefore it's quite the opposite, "obfuscating" would be removing the context, like the article currently does and what you are currently proposing to do by leaving it like it is.
The framing effect is an example of cognitive bias, in which people react to a particular choice in different ways depending on how it is presented; e.g. as a loss or as a gain"
... In this case whoever introduced that quote in the first place wanted to send the across the point "Rollins may be considered the most talented wrestler ever". Is this reflective of reality? I'll just say it would be quite a controversial statement. Not in-line with Wikipedia being written conservatively.
Let's look at the possible alternatives to fix this:
- "While praising Rollins' ability to do this and that, industry veteran Sting described Rollins as the most talented he's ever worked with: -> informative, truthful and relatively clear. Although doubts remain whether stray, anecdotal interviews not reflective of the thoughts a significant number of people belong to Wikipedia, like explained above.
- "Seth Rollins' in-ring work has been praised by industry veterans such as Sting and Triple H" -> informative, truthful and relatively clear. It's not specific, but since there are issue with the contextualization of one of the claims, it's a prudent way to put it. Notice:
- [See Chris Benoit's article for comparison, which reports journalist Dave Meltzer words about the man himself] "Seth Rollins in-ring work has been praised by industry veterans such as Sting, Triple H [2] and wrestling-related publications [3]", same as above. Not specific, but with more sources and prudent.
- "Sting described Rollins as the most talented wrestler he's ever seen or worked with" -> truthful, but more markedly anecdotal than the other options and incomplete. You can get quite a different impression when you read the source.
The point here is: to LM2000 and B.Mastino, first and second are third are without a doubt worse than the fourth. Moreover, I feel the need to point out it's been indirectly implied, again, that we shouldn't even touch the intro or the Sting bit because it arguably can't be made better than that.
Summary of dispute by LM2000
There is no dispute, the issue was brought to the talk page where no less than seven different IPs traced to Naples, Italy made the same argument, in excruciatingly verbose detail. Mastino and I disagreed with their novel interpretations. When sockpuppetry is taken into consideration, there is a 2-1 consensus against changing the quote. Should they not WP:DROPTHESTICK I will take this to WP:SPI. I don't intend to make any further comments here.LM2000 (talk) 00:24, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm softly recanting the position above. Prior to the IP's posting here they did not explain why multiple IP's with similar behavior were flocking to this thread. I still think there are better ways of handling this than DR, such as WP:RfC or asking Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling for guidance. I am still naturally skeptical of their behavior but do think they deserve better explanation of my position regardless.
- Saying the quote shouldn't be used because other articles don't use quotes is WP:OTHERSTUFF, but it can be refuted with OTHERSTUFF. Dwayne Johnson, Chyna and Melina Perez all have various quotes in their WP:LEAD.The Melina quote is remarkably similar.
- The three examples posted above are all WP:GA status... so much for the Rollins' quote dragging the quality down.
- The article was rated C class in September 2014, a year before Sting's quote.
- Chyna and Melina's quotes use the same source in dispute here. If you do consider it WP:PRIMARY, WP:SECONDARY sources such as Philly.com and The Denver Post covered it.
It's really hard to agree that Seth Rollins is "the most talented wrestler Sting has ever worked with"
Doesn't matter whether you, wrestling messageboards, or the wrestling community as a whole agree with what he said, you don't have to (see WP:IDONTLIKEIT).- That's really the crux of the dispute. On the talk page we heard various theories about how Sting didn't really mean it, he was just talking about how Rollins was talented (but not THAT talented) and the later elaboration proved us wrong. Mastino's quote below shows otherwise, and statements above like:
While "Sting said Rollins is the best" is true...
show they seem to acknowledge this. The context is fine, we're not claiming Sting is speaking for the entire wrestling industry here, we're using his own words. The IPs' proposals would actually offer less context than what we currently have.LM2000 (talk) 09:03, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by B. Mastino.
Here is the comment made by Sting, about Seth Rollins:
After 30 years and working with some of the best and some of the greatest, [Rollins] is, I’m telling you, he’s got to be the best I’ve ever worked with. I mean, this guy has it. And I think he’s just scratching the surface on what he will do. I’ve never seen somebody as talented. He’s working two [matches] on Raw, two [matches] on the pay-per-view, he’s involved in every other segment and it’s physical. He’s got guys coming from every angle. There’s a lot on his plate. He’s carrying a lot, and he’s handling it. He’s proven he can do it. I’m just glad I had a chance to work with him. He’s the kind of guy who could be in there with a broomstick and make something very interesting happen, a match that people would love somehow.[1]
This has been used to cite the following line in the lede of Seth Rollins:
Industry veteran Steve "Sting" Borden described Rollins as the most talented wrestler he has ever seen, or worked with.
The various IPs (all traceable to Italy and likely the same person) have taken exception to this line, and would like to modify it. I see no grounds for doing so, given that Sting unequivocally called Rollins the best wrestler he's worked with, and the most talented he's seen. The IP basically says my contextual reading isn't up to par, while I say he's bringing his subjective reader interpretation into the mix. Besides the IP-hopping, I suspect there's also an account in existence with a watchlist, given his speedy responses on Talk:Seth Rollins. B. Mastino (talk) 00:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Talk:Seth Rollins#The_Sting_quote_is_MISLEADING_as_hell discussion
- Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion on the talk page. The filing party has not notified the other editors. It is not important that other editors have seen the filing. The filing party is still responsible for notifying the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Volunteer question - The registered editors have made statements. Does that mean that they are willing to engage in moderated discussion? Participation in moderated discussion is voluntary. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:25, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Talk:Frog Skin
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Moot. It appears from this edit that the responding editor has conceded this dispute. If it continues, this can be refiled (but, should that happen, the filing editor should at that time remember that it is his/her obligation to notify the other editor by a note on that editor's user talk page). — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:49, 27 March 2016 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
|---|
Talk:Proton (automobile)#Youngman sales_data_reputability
– New discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Talk:Proton (automobile)#Youngman sales data reputability (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
Dispute overview
This is a refile here. The other user opted to reappear in Proton:talk after the original DNR went stale, and has already unilaterally edited relevant sections of the article. The dispute ended up here intially for good reason; for an outsider's view, and so as not to continue/repeat user-to-user conflict on quite specific issues, and to avoid an edit war. The latest talk entry Talk:Proton (automobile)#Proposed resolution and article edits by Aero777 makes it clear he does not accept one of the two issues I specifically objected to, simply moving the dispute information to another section within the article. Issues I objected to in the Proton Global Operation section were
1) Youngman's China-manufactured cars sold as Lian-Hua have little to do with Proton so should they be included in the bar chart and tables in that same section at all?
The dispute about relevancy of this information has been satisfactorily resolved by its removal from the Global Operations section during the "unilateral" edit by Aero777.
But the same information has now appeared in the text in the Youngman section within the same article still implying that Youngman Lian-Hua cars, "between mid-2009 and February 2015" are strongly associated in some way with Proton. This totally ignores the fact that the Youngman venture is listed as dormant in Proton;s own Annual Reports from mid-2011 and that Youngman Lian Hua cars were locally re-engineered and manufactured, with a Mitsubishi engines in 2012 (http://www.carnewschina.com/2012/11/23/youngman-lotus-l5-gt-launched-on-the-guangzhou-auto-show/)
Continued inclusion of such figures for "between mid-2009 and February 2015" in their new location also totally ignores my second point which was
2) Youngman sales figures are discredited (http://autochina.comnews.cn/d/44.html)so should they be quoted as they have been at all?
The reference discrediting sales figures is much more recent than the posted (now discredited) production and sales figures.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Extensive talk, first on User777's talk page, then Proton (automobile) talk page. Posted on Third Opinion noticeboard, but went stale. Posted on Dispute Resolution Noticeboard but went stale because no response from Aero777 for 6 days. Aero777 then reappeared with this entry Talk:Proton_(automobile)#Proposed resolution and unilateral edits to the article.
How do you think we can help?
Encourage Aero777 to respond directly to remaining open issue ignored in his unilateral edit - How can Youngman Lian-Hua cars have anything to do with Proton right through 2015 when Proton's venture with Youngman is listed as dormant in Proton's own Annual Reports (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=9782E38D5AEECF8E!121&authkey=!ACkLKiB1lSOroTk&it) covering August 2011 onwards. If no satisfactory explanation, remove mention of Youngman's discredited sales figures within the Proton context.
Summary of dispute by Aero777
Since February 27th, I have repeatedly affirmed that until explicitly proven fraudulent or inflated, the sales data for Youngman Lotus cars will be left as is. User @Samhu: keeps dragging on this pointless argument and all this while, he could never decisively prove his claims of fraud. He constantly harps on his one and only reference to discredit Youngman's sales, a source which is much too ambiguous and insufficient to back his argument. Now he's saying that because Youngman is listed as 'Dormant' in Proton's annual reports, therefore the Proton-Youngman partnership is no longer valid from 2011 onwards; exactly how does that support his allegations of fraud ? The 'Dormant' status in the annual reports still doesn't prove anything significant, again, an example of an ambiguous statement being spun to confirm an existing bias. We need a headline that reads "Youngman Lotus - Small company with a big, dirty secret - Sales figures grossly inflated since 2009"... 'Dormant' or "way off" is just not explicit enough.
I have already removed the Youngman Lotus sales data from Proton's export table here, as well as the main graph. I have instead moved the 2009 to 2015 Youngman sales data to its appropriate section. I have worded it in a way that clearly outlines said sales data as 'reported by Youngman', and the "way off" statement from Samhu's original 20 July reference follows after. This is a reasonable compromise; this way, readers can make their own conclusions, simply because the current situation is unresolvable due to the secrecy of Chinese car registration data. I have advised Samhu on my latest talk page entry, that it's best to wait until we get a more conclusive media report on Youngman's disappearance. However, he hasn't bothered to reply my newest entry, and instead he re-submitted the argument to DRN.
On a side note, he claims that 'Lian-Hua' and Proton cars are completely different; yes, the L5 is, not the L3. The L3 is a rebadged Proton GEN-2/ Persona. The Mitsubishi engines ? They were not fitted to all of Youngman's cars, most came with CamPros. By some stroke of luck, my source of information (marklines.com) only just updated 2015 global engine production data on March 28th, and as I've correctly predicted on March 3rd, the new data shows a huge drop in CamPro engine exports to Youngman in 2015. Here are the screencaps (because the website requires a membership); Youngman Lotus China production 2009-2015, Proton CamPro Malaysia production 2009-2014 (screencap from March 3rd), ditto, 2009-2015 (screencap from today/ Mar 29th). If you subtract Youngman Lotus L3 2015 production (Jan & Feb) of 5,703 units against Proton's 2015 exports to them (3,019 and 2,896 units), it'll give 212 unused/ unaccounted engines. This discrepancy in Youngman's own reported production versus Proton's annual CamPro production reports shows that both sources are separate, and not just a reflection of one another. Here's the production vs. sales vs. exports graph I created on March 3rd for comparison.
I've already done and researched all I could have at this point, and my original stance is still unchanged since day one; we simply don't have enough information to fully validate allegations of fraud and inflation, so we cannot discredit the entirety of Youngman's reported sales data.
Regards, Aero777 (talk) 07:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Samhu (talk) 08:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC) I believe all issues except one have been cleared up. I still don't understand how, when Proton in its official Annual Reports lists it's Youngman venture as dormant covering the period from mid-2011 onwards, that Youngman activites from then on are relevant to Proton? Just try fitting this undisputable fact in the Youngman entry as it currently stands in Proton (automobiles) and it'll be obvious that there is a serious data conflict that needs to be resolved if that section is to remain credible and relevant. Samhu (talk) 08:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC)