Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions

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==Jytdog==
==Jytdog violating GMO topic ban and harassing users==
<small>''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. <br />Requests may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''</small>

===Request concerning Jytdog===
; User who is submitting this request for enforcement : {{userlinks|Excelse}} 17:49, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

; User against whom enforcement is requested : {{userlinks|Jytdog}}<p>{{ds/log|Jytdog}}
<!--- Here and at the end, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->

;Sanction or remedy to be enforced: [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Jytdog_topic_banned]]
<!--- Link to the sanction or remedy that you ask to be enforced --->

;Jytdog violating GMO topic ban and harassing users


First, [[User:Jytdog]] was, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Jytdog|among other incidents], [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Jytdog_topic_banned|topic banned]] in December 2015 by Arbcom:
First, [[User:Jytdog]] was, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Jytdog|among other incidents], [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Jytdog_topic_banned|topic banned]] in December 2015 by Arbcom:
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jytdog&diff=prev&oldid=871816286 Jytdog] has announced his retirement (after apparently yet another, unrelated to this case, instance of poor judgment), but I feel his past behavior still deserves some scrutiny. --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 17:17 4 December 2018 (GMT)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jytdog&diff=prev&oldid=871816286 Jytdog] has announced his retirement (after apparently yet another, unrelated to this case, instance of poor judgment), but I feel his past behavior still deserves some scrutiny. --[[User talk:Gwern |Gwern]] [[Special:Contributions/Gwern | (contribs)]] 17:17 4 December 2018 (GMT)

::Human cases of genetic modification I would view separately from the GMO topic. But at this point it is really mute. [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 17:35, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
; Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jytdog&diff=prev&oldid=871996832]
<!-- Please notify the user against whom you request enforcement of the request, and then replace this comment with a diff of the notification. The request will normally not be processed otherwise. -->

<!--- In the line below, replace USERNAME with the username of the editor against whom you request enforcement. --->
===Discussion concerning Jytdog===
<small>''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 [[Word count#Software|words]] and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. <br />Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''</small>
====Statement by Jytdog====

====Statement by (username)====
<!-- Copy and paste this empty section below the most recent statement and replace "(username)" with your username. -->

===Result concerning Jytdog===
:''This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.''
<!-- When closing this request use {{hat|Result}} / {{hab}}, inform the user on their talk page if they are being sanctioned (eg with {{AE sanction}} or {{uw-aeblock}} and note it in the discretionary sanctions log. -->
*

Revision as of 17:50, 4 December 2018


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    יניב הורון

    יניב הורון is warned that future attempts to game their topic ban, engaging in personal attacks, or any other form of disruption or failure to meet the behavioral norms of the English Wikipedia in any topic area, is likely to result in a lengthy block. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:02, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning יניב הורון

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Number 57 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:25, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    יניב הורון (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBPIA topic ban

    Today I received an email from יניב הורון which consisted solely of a link to the Six-Day War article history, where there has recently been some disagreements between the usual suspects in this topic area. My interpretation of this is that due to their topic ban in this area, they were seeking some kind of assistance – i.e. trying to recruit me as a meatpuppet.

    After I responded on his talk page, it was reverted with the edit summary "That wasn't my intention, dear moser. But thanks for answering me in private."

    A moser is a term for a Jew who reports a fellow Jew to authority. This infers that יניב feels betrayed by someone who they had thought was on their side, which I see as further suggestion that they were hoping I would help them out in some way. And I'm not even Jewish.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    [1]
    I don't find Yaniv's explanation convincing. If the email was sent by mistake, why wasn't there a follow up a few minutes later explaining the previous one? My comment on his talk page was 15 minutes after the original email. Also, why would he need to contact me by email about this topic rather than write on my talk page. Number 57 15:55, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion concerning יניב הורון

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by יניב הורון

    I sent an email to Number57 because of his expertise in Israeli politicians' infoboxes and elections. Mordechai Gur, for example, is in the Six Day War infobox, but does not have his political career in his bio's infobox (MK, minister without portfolio, health minister, etc). As far as I understand, his political career is not ARBPIA related. However, I hit "SEND" prior to filling the content. I was going to explain myself to him but I was miffed by Number57's post on my talk page instead of asking me in private what do I want, or simply telling me he's not interested in having a conversation in private, hence my rash and impolite response. As far as the Jewish term "moser", I understand it was received the wrong way, but it's a general thing to say when someone takes something private and makes it public. In Israel that's something students say to one another on outing stuff to an instructor or a GF. In any case, I won't bother Number57 anymore, although a "no thank you" as email response would have been enough.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 21:18, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    regentspark: The prohibition of sending emails is not explicity mentioned in the topic ban. However, I won't send emails anymore. For the record, I didn't ask anyone to be my "meatpuppet" or do my edits like Number 57 claims.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 00:16, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Sandstein: I agree my edit summary was disrespectful and I apologize for it.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 10:10, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by Sir Joseph

    I think Sandstein raises a good point. The BAN applies to pages and articles, and it seems to me the page is pretty explicit on what it includes. If we also want emails to be included that should be up to the community perhaps to decide if that should be under the scope of a BAN. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:39, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by Beyond My Ken

    Regarding precedent, in this AE request I filed against Captain Occam the primary evidence I provided were e-mails sent to me by CO. The case ended with CO being indef blocked by TonyBallioni, but not as an AE enforcement action, as an individual admin action. Nevertheless, the discussions and statements in the case request may be pertinent here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:28, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by Nableezy

    Yaniv has repeatedly skirted the boundaries of his topic ban. And yes, this looks like trying to get a proxy edit. But, his editing when it has actually been outside of the topic area hasnt been so bad to say that he should be indefinitely blocked. Tony, taking into account both the email and the response in the edit summary, with the response being the bigger thing imo, a NPA/CIV block and another stern reminder to stay away from the topic area would suffice. And honestly, I very much doubt an indefinite block will accomplish what you are hoping, I see that more likely leading to an alienated editor who comes back however he can. An outcome I rank as the worst. nableezy - 06:43, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Icewhiz, attempting to violate WP:MEAT on an article in the topic area is without question a violation. Its just silly to argue otherwise. nableezy - 07:31, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Tony, I actually do hold several things against Yaniv to be honest, I very much disliked his editing style when he was active in the topic area. It was my request that resulted in this current topic ban. But, each time Yaniv has been blocked or banned for something he has adjusted, at least ever so slightly, to not continue doing the same thing that resulted in his being blocked or banned. So my view is at the very least he has shown a willingness to attempt to correlate his actions with our policies when he suffers some consequence to breaking them. Now is that enough? Idk, nobody would ever give me admin rights here so it isnt something I really even have to think that much about. But I do think that if indefinitely blocked that breaks that progress, and I dont think that is in anybodys interest. Including my own, as somebody who both disagreed with his editing style and his actual edits for the most part. nableezy - 17:37, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by Icewhiz

    WP:TBAN clearly does not include private communication, such as e-mails, and regulating off-wiki conversation (dinner table as well?) is a slippery slope. Yaniv offered an explanation that he intended to send something else - and his explanation has some credibility in that sending an e-mail "consisted solely of a link to the Six-Day War article history" to someone is a really odd way of approaching someone for the first time (no hello? no introduction? no explanation?). Yaniv's use of "Moser" - on his own talk page - was inadvisable, however this is in colloquial speech (in some circles) something akin to saying "snitch" - in such colloquial use there is no Jew/non-Jew distinction. Saying "dear moser [snitch]" (one one's own talk page) is mild incivility - but it is not a TBAN violation. Icewhiz (talk) 07:23, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by Zero0000

    As much as we'd like banned editors to stay out of the editing cycle completely, I agree with Sandstein that private emails don't violate the letter of a topic ban. So I think this is not actionable even though it was a clear violation in spirit. Zerotalk 11:25, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by Huldra

    While I agree that contacting anyone off wiki is a borderline violation at best (hence, I would be willing to ignore that)...calling someone a moser is way beyond behaviour that Wikipedia should accept.

    Just to recap: the killer of Yitzhak Rabin "justified" his deed by the fact that West Bank rabbis had called Rabin a moser and a rodef (see eg ‘Killing a King’ Examines Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, New York Times). And it is argued that that the law of the moser "is far more serious and deadly than the law of rodef. (link Haaretz)

    We don't accept that editors call other editors by the n−word (and it doesn't matter whether the target is Afro–American or not). Nor should we ever allow anyone to call another editor "a moser", Huldra (talk) 20:12, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by JFG

    Methinks some editors should apply a healthy dose of skin-thickening lotion.[FBDB] But thanks for teaching me some Jewish slang. No violation, no action. — JFG talk 21:50, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning יניב הורון

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I'd welcome any input about whether there is any precedent as to whether using the Wikipedia e-mail function is within the scope of a ban. As a matter of first impression, I doubt it, because WP:BAN only mentions edits to pages, not e-mails. Sandstein 21:34, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    In my opinion, yes, emailing an administrator regarding an editing conflict on a page which one is banned from constitutes a violation of the ban. If Yaniv had posted at ANI requesting attention to the article, we would consider it a violation; I don't think attempting to do so privately protects the intent to violate the ban. If that was the intent, I don't know if that is established. However, I cannot cite precedent. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:43, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Based on the wording of WP:BAN, it is not sufficiently clear to me that Wikipedia e-mail is within the scope of a ban. The "moser" is incivil, but not a topic ban violation. I therefore decline to take action here. This does not preclude any other admin who sees things differently from taking action. Sandstein 10:04, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Like Ivanvector, I can't cite a precedent but I agree that this is a violation of the tban. We could be pedantic and ask if the email was sent by clicking on the send this user an email button (on wiki-ish) or directly (off wiki) but that wouldn't change the fact that this was an attempt to influence the editing of the article. --regentspark (comment) 23:57, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      I don't think this rises to the level of an indef block. In essence, we have a link to an article sent over email and a single snide comment in response to a protest against that email. That's not really egregious enough for a long block, let alone an indef one. --regentspark (comment) 17:16, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I saw the revert and insult directed at Number57 on the talk page. I agree that this is an attempt to skirt the TBAN, and even if it’s not a technical TBAN violation, the response to it, including the wikilink accusing someone of being a Jew who reports other Jews to non-Jewish authorities is simply unacceptable on a collaborative project. This response would in my view fall under DS in the topic area as it was in response to an editor raising concerns about their behavior there. Given the scheer length of the block log and past TBAN violations, I think we’re at the point of an indefinite block: first year AE, regular block after that. If people want to nitpick on it, then it can be as a regular admin action for the response on the talk page. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:53, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nableezy, I think my point is that at some point after having three TBAN blocks and 2 other AE blocks before that, he should know to tread lightly. Increasing the block durations by a week every time until we hit 52 seems impractical. I like Yaniv and hold nothing against him, but his talk page for a while was basically a noticeboard for ARBPIA conflicts. If others don’t want to block this time, I’m not opposed to that, but I think that this should at the very least be closed with a logged warning letting him know that any future violations or misconduct in the area will likely result in a long block. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:27, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Attempting to encourage another editor to edit on one's behalf where one cannot edit oneself because of a topic ban is an attempt to evade the topic ban. How one goes about trying to get that other editor to do so is irrelevant: email may not be covered by the topic ban, but the Wikipedia editing which the email implicitly solicited is. As Ivanvector has pointed out, "If Yaniv had posted at ANI requesting attention to the article, we would consider it a violation": likewise if it had been a post to a user talk page, or anywhere else. It would make no sense at all if we were to take the line that attempting to obtain proxy editing to evade a ban were somehow more acceptable if done secretly than if done openly and visibly; if anything, the attempt to hide what was being done makes it less acceptable. There is nothing to be gained by wikilawyering about whether the particular method employed to try to evade the ban is explicitly covered by some written wording (whether in the the ban, in some "precedent" or anywhere else) when we all know that what happened was an attempt to evade a ban. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 15:38, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Given this user's history, a significant block is appropriate. Not for the email, which may well be outside our scope, but for edit summary. Jonathunder (talk) 18:32, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm going to go against the grain here, and say that we should not be blocking. We would be setting an extremely dangerous precedent if we blocked for an email, because we are then by extension obligated to sanction other individuals for emails about things which (due to site-bans or t-bans) they are required not to discuss. This obviously isn't happening. If Number57 had edited the article in response to the email, they would still be completely responsible for the edits, and as such Yaniv cannot also be responsible. I don't think we should be implementing sanctions for any off-wiki behavior that isn't harassment. The edit-summary is blockable, but given the apology above, I think a block might be punitive at this point. I would recommend a logged warning about personal attacks and attempting to circumvent the t-ban. Vanamonde (talk) 18:55, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • On reflection I strongly disagree that clear attempts to influence the editing of an article covered by a topic ban are dependent on the manner of communicating the attempt, nor on the recruited editor actually making an edit. The attempt itself is the violation: that a topic-banned editor contacted another editor for the purpose of influencing editing in the topic from which they're banned. The method of contact is irrelevant - the ban means the editor may not participate, and asking another editor to do something for you is indeed participating. We don't say that canvassing is okay if you do it off-site, for example. Again, I can't be certain that that's what happened here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:37, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      @Ivanvector: I agree that it's not okay in principle; I don't think we have the jurisdiction to sanction for it. See, for instance, the ARBCOM case about the East Europe mailing list: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list. The Principle about off-wiki conduct says "A user's conduct outside of Wikipedia, including participation in websites or mailing lists in which Wikipedia or its contributors are discussed, is generally not subject to Wikipedia policies or sanctions, except in extraordinary circumstances such as those involving grave acts of overt and persistent harassment or threats or other serious misconduct." (emphasis mine). We can warn Yaniv because Number 57 clearly found the email undesirable; but we can't sanction it as a t-ban violation, in my view. Tony, this is in reply to your point, too. Vanamonde (talk) 20:09, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      @Ivanvector, Vanamonde93, Jonathunder, JamesBWatson, and Sandstein: While I think linking to an article that describes the death penalty being applied to snitches is worth a long block, I’m sympathetic to Vanamonde’s point of view i.r.t. the EE mailing list finding. I also personally don’t want to be the admin at ARCA over a block here, which is where this would end up: I think the current committee may rule differently, but I also don’t think it’s worth the hassle. Unless another admin prefers to block, which I don’t oppose, I propose logging the following warning: יניב הורון is warned that future attempts to game their topic ban, as well as other forms of disruption or failures to meet the behavioral norms of the English Wikipedia in any topic area, is likely to result in a lengthy block. comments are welcome. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:18, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      @TonyBallioni: I would explicitly add "engaging in personal attacks": otherwise, I am fine with that, or the equivalent. Vanamonde (talk) 21:25, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      (ec) Let's ignore the email, either because it's hearsay, outside our remit, or otherwise inadmissible. Looking just at the edit summary and the existing block log, a strong final warning is warranted, if not a block. Jonathunder (talk) 21:29, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      (ec2)@TonyBallioni: I don't have any objection to you applying a civility block here. In fact, I may be one of the few civility blocks enthusiasts left on Wikipedia. But I recommend that it be placed as a normal admin block rather than as an AE block, because the "moser" comment doesn't seem to be related to the Israeli-Arab conflict topic, for which AE sanctions are authorized. - Edit: Or failing that, I'm ok with the warning as well. Sandstein 21:33, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      Well, as I've said a couple times here, I generally disagree that we cannot sanction a Wikipedia editor for actions that occur elsewhere when those actions specifically relate to a conflict on Wikipedia. That is a very bad precedent to set. As for what to do here, I tend to believe Yaniv's explanation about the "moeser" comment, at least in the way it was intended, and otherwise I'm really not familiar enough with this topic area nor with Yaniv to recommend a course of action. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 22:22, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Jytdog

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Jytdog

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Excelse (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:49, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Jytdog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Jytdog_topic_banned
    Jytdog violating GMO topic ban and harassing users

    First, User:Jytdog was, other incidents, topic banned in December 2015 by Arbcom:

    "Jytdog is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly interpreted."

    This lifetime ban appears to stand since I can find no information on the Arbcom page about an appeal or it being lifted.

    Since then, he has repeatedly deleted content from He Jiankui, AfDed 'designer baby', edited Assisted reproductive technology/Mitochondrial replacement therapy/Human germline engineering/Gene therapy/Synthetic lethality/CRISPR/genetic engineering/Lulu and Nana - and that's in just the past week! (I have not tried to review all 3 years, but I suspect he has edited many other off-limits articles.)

    These are clearly GMO-related articles, narrowly interpreted; for example, the FDA has regulatory power over human gene therapy and germline engineering (such as He Jiankui's CRISPR babies) precisely because the results are legally defined as GMOs, and the main application of CRISPR currently is making agricultural GMOs. 'Broadly interpreted', they are even more clearly GMO-related. In addition, someone who has earned a lifetime topic ban should go above and beyond in avoiding the behavior that resulted in the Arbcom case and strive to avoid even the appearance of an impropriety.

    Jytdog's response was to deflect and redefine his topic ban as narrowly as possible, double down on his behavior, and dare me to take it here:

    "Please play the ball, not the man. My TBAN is on ag biotech, not this sort of thing...The locus of the case was ag biotech. I have been regularly editing human gene therapy and related topics and you are the first person to make drama over this. In any case, WP:AE is thataway. What you are doing here, is really inappropriate. I won't be responding to you further."

    Second, Jytdog has engaged in unacceptable harassing behavior.

    Jytdog and I have never interacted before and have no history, but when I criticized the justifications he made in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Designer baby (2nd nomination) of designer babies being 'sci fi' which don't exist and so not worthy of an article (pointing out the existence not just of He Jiankui's CRISPR babies but a long history of selection on optional traits, ongoing contemporary applied & research projects, and many imminent technologies widely expected in the future, all of which he appears to be ignorant of), his response was to look at my contributions and AfD not one but two of my articles, which I have worked on for years, on the grounds that they are too good for WP. His response?

    "I am sorry you feel that it is hostile."

    This is an unacceptable way to respond to criticism, and it is especially unacceptable as it is done while flagrantly breaking a lifetime topic ban.

    Jytdog has announced his retirement (after apparently yet another, unrelated to this case, instance of poor judgment), but I feel his past behavior still deserves some scrutiny. --Gwern (contribs) 17:17 4 December 2018 (GMT)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
    [2]

    Discussion concerning Jytdog

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Jytdog

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Jytdog

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.