Talk:Genocide of indigenous peoples

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Spanish colonization of the Americas[edit]

I don't think it is at all serious to talk about a "genocide through the introduction of disease", as it is done in the last lines of the section, if the introduction of the disease was unintentional. The section misses any reference to all the Crown laws protective of the indigenous populations that were enacted from 1518 on (plus Queen Isabella already giving orders for the protection of the indigenous population and against slavery already in 1493, as soon as Columbus came back from the first voyage), which make any claim for a genocide (i.e. intentional and planned) invalid. The section should either be removed or be moved into a section of wrongly attributed genocides.--Diotime (talk) 12:07, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

I haven't yet reviewed the cited source, but I suspect it doesn't cite unintentional introduction of disease as genocidal. As for the assertion that the description of genocide was "wrongly attributed", may I ask which reliable source you are referring to which says that? Xenophrenic (talk) 21:51, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Well you just have to read the article Black Legend in this encyclopaedia. Even if the section of this article may invite to think that such Black Legend is true, given the way it is written, it was actually a centuries-old propaganda campaign against the Spanish empire. Plus, a genocide is something planned to culturally or physically eradicate people. The accidental introduction of diseases in the American continent cannot be considered as such, the same way as the millions of deaths by tobacco or syphilis are not a genocide committed by Native Americans towards the rest of the world.--Diotime (talk) 08:14, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
No, I just have to read your reliable sources you are referring to which say the description of genocide was "wrongly attributed". And our Wikipedia articles don't claim that accidental introduction of disease is genocide. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 15:20, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
I don't think you're getting the point of what I'm trying to say. The whole article Black Legend, which is adequately sourced, is about a supposed genocide wrongly attributed to the Spanish Crown of that time. And yes, our Wikipedia articles don't claim that accidental introduction of disease is genocide. However, the current version of the section that this discussion is about now reads "was marked by [...] genocide through the introduction of disease" at its end.
Other than that, the supposed annihilation of Arawak people (in the Caribbean, omitting that there are actually Arawak elsewhere nowadays) is put into question by genetic analyses of the current population (as shown [1], [2] or [3], with data already incorporated in our Wikipedia articles on e.g. Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic). But that's a more complex debate, as the brutality of colonization was certainly much greater in the Caribbean where the protective regulations from the Crown may have arrived too late.
The thing is, all in all, the quality of the section is pretty low for what at least I expect from our Wikipedia.
Regards,--Diotime (talk) 20:29, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Supposed Lemkin opinion[edit]

I have deleted "Holocaust lawyer Raphael Lemkin, the originator of the term "genocide", claimed that settler colonialism was inherently genocidal. He specifically referred to the replacement of Native Americans by English and later British colonists as genocide" This had this ref [4]. Firstly it is the author of the source, John Docker, that is making various claims about the content of Lemkin's writings, it is not Lemkin since the material from which the claims are derived are unpublished works by Lemkin. Nor does John Docker's text even claim "inherently genocidal" as a phrase used or claim made by Lemkin, it is actually a phrase used in the title of a work by Docker, who cites it as being Ward Churchill’s contention (the same Ward Churchill who, if I can borrow from an earlier discussion here, "has habitually committed multiple counts of research misconduct—specifically, fabrication and falsification"). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:48, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Well spotted. I have reworded that part to remove any reference to settler colonialism and simply say Lemkin described the replacement of Native Americans as genocide in his unpublished work. Does that seem like an improvement?--Quality posts here (talk) 06:01, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
I think you should probably reinsert that with a better source. Such as this: McDonnell, M. A., & Moses, A. D. (2005). Raphael Lemkin as historian of genocide in the Americas. Journal of Genocide Research, 7(4), 501-529.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:09, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
I've tagged the section that has been added. Its a classic example of WP:OR and WP:SYN, leading to an agenda dictated piece of writing that carefully selects its sources based on a a priori agenda. Its used attribution to add POV laden terms such as genocide, which really don't apply in the cases cited. Yes there are things that we should be including but definitely not in the way its been done here. WCMemail 08:32, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
Genocide is not a loaded term when it is used in Lemkin's definition and supported by reasoned arguments for why it applies to a specific historical context. It seems your comment is specifically about the British empire section which I agree is written in a way that is not neutral in that it claims the genocide as fact, when it needs to be described as an argument made by specific historians.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:56, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
There is no original research in the section. Nor are synthetic conclusions made that are not already made in the sources. Please assume good faith cast aspersions about my motives in editing Wikipedia. I have extensively searched google and google scholar for articles on this subject. I did not find a single one arguing that what happened to the aborigines was not genocide. For example in this book one author concludes that the settler treatment of aborigines was a genocide, while the other fails to make a conclusion. Those are the only two positions I have been able to find in any work. A former Australian Prime Minister once claimed that the Stolen Generation was not a genocide, but it is not described as a genocide in this article. Only the massive reduction in the Aboriginal population a century before is called a genocide. Instead of claiming I couldn't find them because I'm biased, perhaps you could show me some reliable sources that argue against the genocide claim?--Quality posts here (talk) 09:52, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Maunus concerning attribution. There are still multiple examples of [WP:OR]] and WP:SYN in this new section. WP:OPINION is presented as WP:FACT throughout the new section, e.g. one authors opinion that the British are racist. In addition, the section specifically on the British Empire is duplicating material already in the article concerning Australia and Canada, whilst confusing the acts of the USA in dealing with their indigenous peoples as part of the British Empire. In fact it seems like the whole section was introduced to enable the author to shoe horn as many of their own personal views as possible, dressing them up by reference to authors whose views they share, presenting them as the "truth". In addition as the OP noted, its based on authors already known for problems with their research and whilst there has been an attempt to use alternatives, its now become an example of confirmation bias in finding cites to support material that was already there - hence it no longer reflects the range of views in the literature. And that is what is fundamentally wrong here, its not representative of the range of views. Its a classic example of editing by editor who sees that Wikipedia exists to right WP:GREATWRONGS. Further, the POV issue has not been addressed and I politely request that you restore that tag please. WCMemail 14:02, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
Regarding original research and synthesis, can you give one example of that from the section? Every statement seems to be sourced, I can't see any conclusion that wasn't made in the sources.
I couldn't find any articles that argue the events described weren't a genocide. Perhaps you could share some with me?
There is no academic debate about whether the British Empire was racist. It is universally acknowledged that it was, with the worst tide of racism around the 1870-1920 era. The deniers have about as much representation among literature as flat Earthers. The British Empire being racist is a fact and not an opinion
Great wrongs is about adding original research to articles. I haven't added any.
I don't see any mentions of crimes that were actually committed by the USA.--Quality posts here (talk) 14:17, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
The OR that I deleted was in two parts, some unacceptable OR in the wording of the content, and unidentified OR by John Docker. I don't know anything about John Docker, but if he is RS then his OR is acceptable - but he has to be identified as the source of the claim. So it should not be "Lemkin, the originator of the term "genocide", referred to the replacement of Native Americans by English and later British colonists as genocide", it is "Docker writes that Lemkin, in unpublished papers, referred to ....". There is no such thing as a "Holocaust lawyer", so I don't know why that is there. Lemkin is also Wikilinked here to his article, so I don't think there is a need for the "originator of the term genocide" bit. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:25, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
I have also deleted this. [5], an extreme and unsourced claim. Due to its location it was also appearing to imply that the reason for an 84% decline in the Aboriginal population was a result of that alleged "violent expansionism and racial beliefs" - that is editorializing. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:40, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
It is acceptable for the topic sentence to make unsourced claims so long as they are sourced later in the paragraph. It's job is to summarize the paragraph, after all. I have inserted another proposal for topic sentence of that paragraph.--Quality posts here (talk) 04:39, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
No its not acceptable to make unsourced claims or to present an opinion of one author as if it were fact. And its important to present the range of opinions in the literature, thanks to Tiptoethrutheminefield and Maunus for moderating and improving the text. However, there are still problems remaining e.g. the use of WP:SPS e.g. [6], which may be justified on the basis of the provision for experts but should be used with caution as it is an advocacy website. And the edits are still problematic by duplicating material and repeating the same content in multiple places. Shoe horning this in has damaged article flow and logic. WCMemail 08:31, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Quality posts here, what we had in that deleted material was a very extreme and also unsourced opinion that "violent expansionism and racial beliefs of the British Empire had a severely negative impact on the indigenous population" and it was tagged onto content in a way that implied evidence for that opinion: a decline in the aboriginal population of Australia. However, the source for that population decline data says nothing at all about "violent expansionism and racial beliefs of the British Empire" being a reason for that decline. That deleted content was pure OR editorializing. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:40, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

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