User talk:Ashley thomas80/Archive 1

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Sorry, I am a bit late but welcome all the same. -- P.K.Niyogi 15:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


Please see Talk:Nedumpally#Irrelevant_information for my concerns about the article Nedumpally. I'm not vandalizing the article or trying to be critical of the community. It's simply that the article is not in a good shape according to the Wikipedia guidelines. Keeping the information relevant and sourcing it rigorously is important to make the page a good article. utcursch | talk 14:46, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Please do not add irrelevant text to articles. Content has to be relevant to the article and documented through reliable sources. Also, performing the same edits while logged out to avoid scrutiny is frowned upon. —SpacemanSpiff 15:41, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Syrian Malabar Nasrani

Dear Ashleypt,

I have wikified some of the passages that were added in the light of the dispute resolution responses. This is not edit war. I just wanted to let you know that. Much of what you wrote is there and I have wikified passages as per neutrality of dispute resolution. thanks Robin klein (talk) 13:57, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Dear Ashleypt,

I have changed Aryan-Brahmin, Dravidian, Jains etc as local people and Jews and Arabs as West Asian semitic. I have not mentioned any particular community. I have used broad terms that encompasses these peoples. I have not been partisan. The accusation is fallacious. thanks Robin klein (talk) 15:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Syrian Malabar Nasrani vandalism

You are vandalising the syrian malabar nasrani page by inserting texts into references and removing citations. Please stop this. Robin klein (talk) 14:46, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Ashleypt, I have not reverted anything of your edits. I have only added some of the passages which were referenced. Please, this is not revert. This is not edit war. I have not reverted anything that you edited. Just added some statements with citations from peer reviewed journals. I have not added all the statements. I have not added passages without citations from peer reviewed journals. thanks Robin klein (talk) 01:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Slow edit warring on Syrian Malabar Nasrani

Hi Ashleypt, this is just to say that I have been following the reverts at Syrian Malabar Nasrani over the last two days, and it looks like you are in a slow edit war with Robin klein. You really need to talk out the changes on the talk page before you revert, otherwise it might result in you being blocked. Although WP:3RR is a bright-line rule, it is not a lower limit - slow edit warring can also result in a block. I recommended that you take this to the Mediation Cabal in my thread on the dispute resolution noticeboard, and I still think that would be the best idea; if you don't want to do this, though, you can try another form of dispute resolution, such as an RfC. Whatever you choose, you can't simply keep reverting without discussing the article contents at all. Although my role at the DRN is usually a peaceful one, if the edit warring on this page continues for much longer, I am thinking of reporting you both to WP:AN3 in an effort to start some useful dialogue. Regards — Mr. Stradivarius 13:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


Dear Ashleypt,

I agree that the interpretation of the Nasrani symbol with the Jewish menorah is contentious. I shall modify it to remove the pov. However I should add that even the interpretation of the Nasrani symbol as christianity coming to land of Buddha is very contentious and a very recent one and equally questionable. After all these are interpretations not ascribed definitions. thanks Robin klein (talk) 19:38, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Ashleypt and Robin,
Glad to see and read the discussion on this topic, “Nazrani Symbol” and “St. Thomas Cross.” It seems that this name Cruz de Sam Thome (St.Thomas Cross) was first mentioned by Antonio Gouvea in the Sixteenth century in his book Jornada do Arcebispo Aleixo de Menezes quando foy as Serra do Malaubar published in 1606. It was in this book a number of stories that are mentioned in Syrian Malabar Nasrani were first published including “Cruz de Sam Thome”.
I agree with the interpretation given to Mar Thoma Sleeba is arbitrary, it is contentious. It is stupid to compare this Cross with Menorah. This does not agree with what is given in the Torah and the Bible. (as pointed out by User:Ashleypt). No historian will support this view. From Jewish sources, I have read their interpretation on Menorah, which is clear and Biblical.
Mentioning Buddhism means coming to the real point. The base of this cross is a Lotus, a sign of Buddhism and not that of a Christian. The inscriptions are in Pahlawi language (Persian) not a language of St. Thomas Christians. Most probably, a cross with a dove, and inscriptions in a Persian language, is a Manchæeism cross. The burning torch and the dove both represent Paraclete. “Mani sought to pose as Christ and proclaimed himself the Paraclete.” (ref: Eusebius. The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus, Bishop of Caesarea Chapter XXXL, The error of the Manichees, which commenced at this time. For more details please read Manichaeism.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 01:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Syrian Malabar Nasrani

Information.svg An article that you have been involved in editing, Syrian Malabar Nasrani , has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Cúchullain t/c 14:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Support: The name Syrian Malabar Nasrani is vague, especially for a non-Malayalee. The word Syrian is misleading; the word Malabar is an anachronism and the word Nasrani is unfamiliar to many. Wikipedia articles are read by people all over the world. But the name Saint Thomas Christians (not St. Thomas Christians) is specific and more suitable for a worldwide publication. So, I support the merger. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 18:29, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Padma Bhushan K.J. Jesudas

Hi Ashley Thomas,

You have added the name of Padma Bhushan K.J. Jesudas in the list of Syrian Malabar Nasrani. Are you sure he is a Syrian Christian? His wife Prabha is. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 18:27, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free image File:Stthomas cross.jpg


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Logging in

Ashley, please do remember to log in when making edits. It allows others to follow who's saying and doing what. Thanks,--Cúchullain t/c 17:02, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


Hi, are you able to help fix the recent IP addition to Bible translations into Malayalam? The style, formatting and English is problematic, but it looks as if it contains some valuable content. Can you help? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:57, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

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Talk page responses

I notice that you have added two responses at Talk:Caste system in Kerala. Those responses were to comments made as long ago as July 2010. Is there really any benefit in continuing something that has lain dormant for as long as this? I think that you would be better starting a new thread for such things as, among other issues, the chances are not particularly great that the people who originated those old discussions are still around. You could always refer to the earlier discussion in your new one. - Sitush (talk) 09:22, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

You may also be interested in my comment about one of your edits, which can be found at Talk:Caste system in Kerala#Relevance of a recent contribution. - Sitush (talk) 09:34, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Syrian Christians

Hi, you really do seem to be on a mission to mention Syrian Christians in as many tangential articles as possible. Are you confident that you do not have a conflict of interest? Your latest edit, at Caste system in India, specifically says that they were not in the system ... so why are you mentioning them at all? It seems daft to me. Peru is not in Europe but we don't say that in the Europe article. - Sitush (talk) 13:44, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

You were bold, I reverted and now you should discuss. Instead, you have reverted me. See WP:BRD. - Sitush (talk) 08:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Kerala source

If you have not got it and would like to see it then be quick! - Sitush (talk) 14:18, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Fuller: it's good, but has many OR contents. --AshLey Msg 14:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
An academic cannot breach our OR policies. That is nonsense. He does fieldwork, it is peer reviewed etc and then becomes a secondary source that we can use. Blimey, if we start with the approach that X has done original research and therefore cannot be used as a source, we'll have no sources at all. - Sitush (talk) 14:54, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
No, we have to follow wiki policies. But his opinions could be quoted with sufficient balance and secondary source support. --AshLey Msg 10:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
He is a secondary source, and a reliable academic at that. If there are other opinions then they should be shown, with due weight etc, but unless you wish to assert that Fuller is a fringe source, well, citing him is ok. - Sitush (talk) 14:47, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Ashley, Sitush pointed out this discussion to me. After looking at it, it's clear this is a reliable secondary source and perfectly acceptable to use at Wikipedia. If we had some other academic taking issue with the findings in another reliable source that would be one thing, but otherwise it's fine to use.--Cúchullain t/c 15:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Cuchullain, while describing some sensitive issues, Fuller starts as 'I believe' etc. So, I think, we should be carefull to quote his personal opinions as such. Anyway, I don't have any doubt over the reliability of this source. As you suggest, if other wp:rs contradicts Fuller's personal view, let's have a relook on this issue. Another case: In the starting sentence of the early history of STC, Sitush has inserted a word 'myth'. Does the source use the same word in that context ?-Ashley
Pretty much all secondary sources are "beliefs": it is they who do the conjecturing, the research etc and there is also an academic lingua franca regarding how things are worded. My approach is that quotes should always include an inline attribution of whom is being quoted, and that we should be judicious in how we attribute any other statements. However, this does not mean that we splatter articles with sentences containing "X believes" etc, and in fact that might be construed as being weaseling or peacocking . We have a citation system that can adequately deal with, say, 95 per cent of the matter. Where the "X believes" construct really comes in is when X says A and another person, Y, says B.

Regarding your "myth" query, that is really one that you should ask on the relevant talk page. But my response would be "yes, it does", and it goes on to explain that there is more than one theory. Actually, I would like to expand on that in the article. - Sitush (talk) 01:13, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily; Secondary sources should normally be supported by primary sources. If some passages in a secondary source are not supported sufficienty, those are just primary information, especially when it is not shared by others. Pls observe the comment from ApostleVoncolorado here: "The features/hierarchy/etc from Ghurye you mention, is where Ghurye is a WP:PRIMARY source; he uses census reports of colonial era (page 29-31, later chapters) to propose his theory. Yes, Ghurye is in parts, a secondary source." Weasling and peacocking: I believe, there is some comprehension issue; totally unrelated while we use "Fuller believes". The issue only raises when we use "It is believed" or like that. Regarding "Myth": I really appreciate your contributions in STC, and also looking forward to you for more NPOV clean-up action. Actually, I restrained myself from making some changes which have been made by you now, as my efforts could have been misinterpreted as POV by some other contributers. Still, I'm studying NPOV aspect of word "myth", and would talk further after verifying with sources. --AshLey Msg 07:24, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with Apostle, for the reasons set out in my message above at 14:24 26 April. Re: weasel etc, I did say "might be construed" rather than "is" - it is an awkward one, and when things are awkward then it is often best to avoid them if possible. I really would take "myth" to the article talk page as it is there that consensus should be determined. - Sitush (talk) 09:46, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


This edit is a borderline attack and a certain breach of WP:AGF. Just because sometimes you do not get your own way, does not mean that those who thought otherwise have an agenda - political or otherwise - or that they were acting in bad faith. The fact is that a lot of what you say in discussions has some merit but you are not getting to grips with issues such as weight and there really does seem at times to be a problem with comprehension. I have no idea whether or not English is your first language but you certainly seem to be very capable in both reading and writing it when it suits, so perhaps you are just losing things in the heat of the moment. If that is the case, and I could be wrong, then it might be worthwhile you remembering that Wikipedia is timeless - there is rarely any need to rush to add or delete content from articles, aside from in situations where there are copyright violations or violations of policies such as WP:BLP.

You have made several assumptions of bad faith etc recently, along the lines of the one that I have referred to above. Should it happen again any time soon then I will be issuing a more formal warning. You are dealing with some experienced editors for whom such comments are wateIr off a duck's back, but such comments set a bad example and they engender an atmosphere of non-cooperation, which is exactly what Wikipedia needs to avoid if it is to progress. - Sitush (talk) 16:36, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Hello Sitush, I used to neglect threats and provocations, weather it's coming straight or in veiled form. I have limited time to spend with Wiki. While dealing the issues on a fly, sometimes, I have lost things in between. But the feed-back that I have provided for the article on "Caste System in India" is a frank one. Don't link STC issue with quality issue of the article. I just tried to correct the existing info on STCs, not to paste any propaganda points there. If so, I could have tried to mention that STCs were considered equivalent to brahmins, practiced untouchability against Nairs and other castes etc with sufficient support from sources. But my point is the integration of STCs with Hindu Caste System. You have to be firm with your point; in one talk page you opine that Caste was basically a Hindu thing and others were outside it. In another talk page, you argues that Non-Hindus also follow caste system. Perhaps your point is that Non-Hindus had a caste system, isolated from the Hindu System. But the sources like Dunken Forrester and Coward have already been cited against this view. Wiki should house all the significant view points, not mine or your's alone. Your concern over "over-weight" to STC subject in a Hindu-Subject is caused by your scrambling only; I had to expand a single sentence to many to clarify your tags. Now you have to clarify the quantum of weight that you considered due.
Coming straight to quality issue of the article (Caste Sys in India); the article looks like a research paper which is of meager value to an uninformed reader of the subject. Before entering the history, we need to explain the characteristics of the System. A brief explanation of Varna System would also be helpful. The name Caste was first used by Portuguese to specify the system of stratification in India; there is no point in trying to disown it and to generalize it as a birth-related social stratification which is basically an advanced subject. If the article deals this advanced subject in a dedicated section, it would be fine. Lot more, but limited time. --AshLey Msg 09:19, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
My message here was not related to the articles but rather your comments on talk pages. You are not assuming good faith and you are teetering on the edge of personal attacks. I am not getting involved in a discussion of articles here: your approach to dialogue, which you spread in a chaotic manner across numerous pages and numerous sections within those pages, is already causing me enough problems and I have no desire to give you another outlet. - Sitush (talk) 09:53, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

File:Stthomas cross.jpg listed for deletion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Stthomas cross.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. ww2censor (talk) 04:30, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


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Studies in Kerala History

Have you seen this comment? - Sitush (talk) 07:36, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

May 2012

You have just reinstated some of the copyvios. Now stop it, please. You are trying to take me on at various articles: this would be ok if you managed to follow our policies and guidelines etc but it is obvious that you lack the experience. Keep doing the good stuff that you do but, please, if you are going to challenge me regarding policy issues then ensure that you have a reasonable knowledge of them before doing so, ie: walk before you run. Your query here is a good thing to do; your templating here is not, per WP:NOT3RR. - Sitush (talk) 16:40, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
And now you have added it again, I know that you claim to be working on it but copyvios are never acceptable. Go work on it offline. And please bear in mind that if you want to change what is valid, sourced information then you are now going to have to discuss it beforehand. That content has been unchallenged for a long time at Caste system in Kerala and I basically copied it over to Nambudiri with an attribution. I probably wrote the original anyway, and I think that you will find that it comes from an even earlier version at Nair or somewhere similar, which I also wrote. - Sitush (talk) 16:45, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
See sitush, you really have to learn something on decent behavior.I just started my work on Nambuthiris, and you jumped the gun to revert it without any talk. I requested for talk, but you again started editing the article with no signs of discussion. You have to learn basic etiquette before doing anything more. --AshLey Msg 16:52, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Please read Wikipedia:Copyvio and lay off the accusations of bad faith/etiquette etc. Like I said, the problem here is your lack of knowledge regarding policy. Now, I can work with you to improve that or you can keep fighting me. So far, you are mostly doing the latter, and across more than just this one article. You are laying yourself wide open to being blocked for breaching some major policy areas, especially since you have already been notified of the sanctions that are in place for articles such as these. - Sitush (talk) 16:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC)


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Message added 19:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Shrike (talk) 19:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC)


Two notes, as the protecting admin. First, as Sitush describes above, copyright violations cannot appear in Wikipedia for any length of time--that is, you cannot add a copyright violation, then say that you're going to fix it in future edits. You need to do all of the "fixing" in the edit window before submitting, or work on it off Wiki first then bring it here. That being said, the truth is that you can't fix copyright violations that way anyway. That is, you can't take text someone already wrote and then edit it (by changing words or grammar here and there). Instead, you need to completely rewrite the info, summarizing the key points, from the ground up. The line between "summary", "close paraphrasing", "plagiarism", and "copyright violation" is very difficult to negotiate, but in my experience (as both a WP editor and an English teacher) is that the worst approach is to start with a copy of the text and then make incremental changes. Instead, read the entire text, figure out what the important information is, then write that in your own words. Of course, your final product still has to match the information in the original, but it needs to have entirely novel phrasing. Second, note that though I protected Nambudiri after you had edited it, that is in no way an endorsement of the most recent version. You now need to go to the article's talk page and discuss the issues between you and Sitush. He has clearly been trying to talk to you here, but I don't really see that you've been doing that, except to place some warnings on his talk page that don't even make sense. If you do not engage in discussions, and instead return to reverting on that article after the protection expires, instead of protection, next time an admin will just block you instead. Wikipedia works by collaboration, not by fighting. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:15, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Hello Ashley. This is a courtesy notice that you've been mentioned at User talk:Boing! said Zebedee#Review of edit war on Nambudiri, please. EdJohnston (talk) 00:40, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Boing! is correct in saying that your comment on his page would have been better placed at Talk:Nambudiri. The discussion on his page related not to content but to policy matters, ie: the protection of the article and your copyright violations etc. Content issues are always best sorted out on article talk pages. - Sitush (talk) 13:29, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Sitush, Our issues are not limited to this single article. If we discuss the issues in a common forum(not necessarily in a user talk page), I think, it would be easier to find an outlet. --AshLey Msg 15:08, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, one might say that there is a common problem, but it's the one identified by Sitush 2 sections down--you appear to be using sources in a disturbing way. How were you able to cite things before actually getting them from the Resource Exchange? That makes it look like you have a preconception about what is true, then you're just guessing/hoping that there is a source to support it. Or is there some other explanation? Please explain. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:15, 12 May 2012 (UTC)


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Shrike (talk) 15:34, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Ongoing problems

I realise that you must think that I am hounding you but, in fact, I am merely trying to sort out problems with your edits. I've no idea exactly what is going on with your sourcing but inserting a sourced statement at Saint Thomas Christians (relating to the forward caste/12 per cent issue) when it seems that the source did not support the statement was unfortunate. Worse, you then reinstated the statement an hour or so later, using a different source. I raised some points about that second source (Sivanandan) in this thread, including that I could not find where it supported the statement. You responded to that thread here but ignored my query regarding the source. Then I find that you have just requested it at WP:RX. The implication is that you used a source that you had not in fact consulted.

Now, we have had a similar implication discussed at Talk:Caste system in Kerala#Journal of Kerala Studies and there have also been other incidents relating to sourcing and to cherrypicking etc.

Mistakes will happen but I am becoming very concerned about your methods and this is one of the reasons why I am having to check pretty much every source that you cite. Sorry about this, but there is a need for care. Sloppy editing, such as I fixed in this series of edits, is usually quite easy to spot and resolve but citation errors are both more critical and often more difficult to spot. Someone has to do it. - Sitush (talk) 16:16, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

well, you were not this much passionate to remove unsourced info in your pet pages like, Caste System in Kerala. Your activism is just against the passages related to Christianity. That's how, the good faith has been lost among us. In STC, 12 per cent stat was not introduced by me. In the earlier version, it mentioned that STCs are the largest forward caste. Since, Nairs also constitute 12 per cent, I corrected to current form, which is factually correct. The same stat is available in the internal link given with SOCIO ECONOMIC SURVEY 1968, and I just copied the same source from that wiki page. First, you correct your prejudiced attitude, then only our talks could give any fruitful results. -Ashley
A few points:
  • We cannot rely on other Wikipedia articles - see WP:CIRCULAR - and therefore it matters not a jot what the internal link says. You need to check your cited sources yourself before you add statements.
  • A diff for what the STC article said re: them being the largest forward caste might be handy, as I assume that it was sourced
  • Even if you had a source saying that the Nairs constitute 12%, and another source saying that the STCs are the largest forward caste, you could not add the two together to make a statement that STCs = 12% because that would breach our synthesis rule. It is, for example, possible that the two sources use different data sets, different intepretations or even different sample times.
  • If you think that my "activism" is just against passages relating to Christianity then I strongly suggest that you spend some time working through my 50- or 60,000 contributions. That is quite an allegation to make. Has it not crossed your mind that your perception is because your edits relate to Christianity issues and it is your edits that are proving to be problematic & in need of some checking. In this particular instance, you effectively appear to have twice entered a fake reference.
  • Since I think that you now have the source, do you agree that it fails to mention the figure or, indeed, the forward caste issue at all? If you do, then we remove the statement again and you should do the same at which ever article it is where you found it.
Please do not forget, that this is part of what seems to be a general tendency towards sloppy editing: my raising the issue here is a consequence of your contributions as a whole, rather than just this single statement. If it were the latter then I would have dealt with it solely at Talk:Saint Thomas Christians. - Sitush (talk) 09:58, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
As another example, you originally quoted Fuller at the head of the section on Caste at STC but you crucially omitted Fuller's preamble and footnote, where he states that they may sensibly be considered, etc. His point is that they are not part of the system because they are Christian rather than Hindu, but in practical terms they may be considered to be a part of it. He goes on to use the word "empirically" etc. These nuances can be significant. - Sitush (talk) 10:05, 13 May 2012 (UTC)


  1. Your remark, "two fake sources", is uncalled for. The statement was not sourced and factually incorrect When I corrected like this :diff.I added the 1st source(ie NSC Statistics) in order to give the reader at least some data on the statistics of STCs, since not much statistical info was not ncluded in the article at that time. NSC stat states "The Christian population in this state of Kerala is approximately 6.2 million which is around 20 % of the State population. According to a rough estimate, among them the vast majority (65-75 %) belongs to the Syrian Christian community spread across different Christian sects..." This info was useful to verify the statement, and hence I added it. Moreover, from some offline sources, I confirmed that the STC popn is more or less 12 per cent. In the second case, it is true that I used a circular reference, trusting the quality of that article. However, for a second verification, I went to WP:RX. At the maximum, you could accuse me of using a circular source, but not a fake source for sure.
  2. Yes, now I have the source, but only 7 pages. With this limited preview, how could I or anybody else say that the source doesn't contain this data. Let me prove it: If you analyse this article authored by EMS, you could conclude that the books of Sivanandan categorizes STCs as Forward Caste. We can't blindly disbelieve a source in this wiki-article, which has not yet been inserted with any template related to POV or unreliability etc. You also found to be involved in editing this article. If you had any doubts on it's reliability, why don't you challenge it there. That's why I told you that your activism has some POV issue. Of cource, my activity is limited to some areas, but I'm not an "activist against any section, religion or caste". --AshLey Msg 07:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Ashley, you inserted two different sources and neither of them supported the statement. Period. The source that you have now got via RX is the same one that you cited - an article from Economics and Political Weekly - and, as you were told at RX, I had only recently asked for the thing. That is a full source (not a "limited preview") and it does not appear to support the statement. Therefore, it is a fake reference, inserted by you without you having even read the thing. Misunderstanding a source is different from misrepresenting one, and in this instance it looks like you misrepresented in the extreme.

I am afraid you appear to be going backwards at the moment, and I really would advise that you read in full some of our basic policies, such as WP:V and WP:RS. A read of WP:OSE and WP:Citing sources might also be of benefit to you, as might WP:NPA given that you are making grossly unfounded accusations against me. - Sitush (talk) 07:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

OK, it's SIvanandan's another article. From this link I already given, it's clear that the original survey contains the forward caste categorization and much more. --AshLey Msg 08:16, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Nothing is clear from that abstract, nor can I recall seeing it previously. Anyway, I presume that you have read the entire article? - Sitush (talk) 08:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
You raised the issue of Ethnic_groups_in_Kerala#1968_Socio-Economic_Survey_of_Kerala not being templated. Why do you think that it should be? - Sitush (talk) 08:22, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, not a fair game. Did you see this "Only the Syrian Christians(...) are put in the category of "forward" community. This official categorization..." To verify such a simple thing, we don't need to go in depth.--AshLey Msg 08:27, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
What is not fair? Where? I am afraid that your comment makes no sense at all to me, except in so far as it seems to answer neither my query regarding the JSTOR item that you link to nor with regard to why you think the WP article needs tagging. - Sitush (talk) 08:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
The early quote was my reply to your comment that "Nothing is clear". What do you want to clarify more from that source? Regarding tagging of WP article: this article has a table of 1968 pop stat, which uses the the same JSTOR source(Sivanandan) that we discussed above. --AshLey Msg 09:04, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
We do not work off abstracts. You'll have to read the entire JSTOR article, and hope that it mentions the 12% figure etc also. As for the Wikipedia article, it is clear that you have misunderstood it: the table that relates to the Economics and Political Weekly article is with regard to landholdings; the table that relates to population figures is referring to 1931, not 1968. - Sitush (talk) 09:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I disagree with you in the abstract case for such a simple matter. That we could clarify with someone else. You were quick to see the tables in WP article, but not careful. Read it once more: the 1st table is pop stat of 1968. --AshLey Msg 09:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)


Argh! Abstracts are the same as snippet views, which you have already been told are not acceptable because they lack context. Furthermore, the abstract does not support the 12% figure that you had added at Saint Thomas Christians. As far as the Wikipedia article is concerned, I've already said that the table relates to 1968, which is what the E&PW journal article concerns. My question was, why do you think that it needs tagging? Are you saying that the 1968 landholdings table data is not shown in the E&PW article by Sivanandan? Or what?

You seem to be developing a tendency to fudge issues and dodge questions: it does not help your case. - Sitush (talk) 09:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, no. the table may refer to population: the preceding text is confusing. My apologies. However, I still do not see why it needs to be tagged, except perhaps for copyediting. - Sitush (talk) 09:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Finally you got it, Thanks. Why need tagging? Why doesn't it meet the same criterion that you took to delete the STC=12% passage?
FFS, the 12% passage in Saint Thomas Christians was not supported by the sources that you added. The statement that was cited in the Ethnics Groups article is supported by the source. What is your problem? Aside from WP:OSE issues, you claimed that you had copy/pasted from that article but it is clear that you just grabbed at a source, without reading it and despite it not being used for the purpose to which you then applied it. Want me to put it plainly? OK, you "lied".

I am not messing with this issue any further here: you know that you are lacking in incompetence regarding policies etc, I've fixed an article that you could have tried to fix yourself, and you are scattering red herrings all over the place. Just be aware that I will continue to keep a very close eye on your contributions until you come to understand what WP:V, WP:CITE, WP:RS. WP:CIRCULAR, WP:FAKE etc mean. - Sitush (talk) 09:54, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The Table(1968 pop) cited in the Ethnics Groups article: Supported by which source? If supported, why did you tag it now? Who is lying now? So, while you tagged that table instead of deleting, you remarked that "move & cite request (I know that this is correct but it does need sourcing))". I also rendered a similar sympathy to a genuine statement like "Syrian Christians are one of the largest forward castes in Kerala, constituting 12 per cent of the population". I also know that the statement is true. The ref1-NSC stat- would have given the reader to assess the reliability of the statement with some +/- calibration. Ref2 - grabbed from 1968 Survey - Here, I made a mistake by posting the source without verifying it. But, I presumed that the source contains full survey report. That presumption went wrong, and now got accused of lying by an innocent person. Now, you also vouch that the full survey report contains the popn stat - What an irony! I welcome your close policing, and happy to say that the quality of articles which I really contributed have increased many fold with such disputes, activism and policing only. Similarly my knowledge in WP:policies also has increased to great extend and I'm thankful to you too. I would have much more respected your vigorous activities that I'll never be able to match myself due to my selfish love of my personal life and professional engagements, if your POV was bit more balanced. Some more pointers to a few article those you involve:

Ezhava: Citations 8,9,10,14,21,22 and 32 are not full. Could be verified again.

Nambutiri: A section is there without any citation.

Caste system in India - Lot of sources need full citation

Arya Vaishya- Lots of un-sources info

Caste system in Kerala-In STC you were quick to add the qualifier "Myth" with the tradition of St.Thomas. But, you have still not undertook any action regarding the misrepresentation of Parasurama Myth as a fact which we have already discussed in Talk:Caste_system_in_Kerala#POV_issue:_Myth_of_Parasuraman_cited_as_fact

One more thing your behaviour: When I 1st added my contributions in Nambudiri, you swiftly removed it citing the reason as "Poorly phrased and improper citation". But when I protested you suddenly changed your stand to "copyvio". These types of manipulations will surely spoil your image. --AshLey Msg 12:55, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Red herrings. - Sitush (talk) 12:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)


Please be careful at Iyengar. It is a highly contentious article at the moment and you lack the experience if it heats up. Take a look at the talk page. - Sitush (talk) 08:22, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

OK, Thank you for your guidance. But it has many un-sourced passages.That we have to tag. --AshLey Msg 08:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)


You probably should have been notified of this report at WP:DRN. - Sitush (talk) 21:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Stthomas cross.jpg

Hi Ashley_thomas80,

While I am sure you think the image should be kept, all non-free images hosted on Wikipedia must meet all of the non-free content criteria. In this case the nominator claimed it did not meet WP:NFCC#8 which means that he is claiming that the lack of the image would not significantly harm reader's understanding of the topic. Another editor agreed and I didn't find your arguments addressed this issue sufficiently to keep the image. I can see also now that there are at least two free images of the cross on Wikimedia's Commons site - either of which could be used in the article - Peripitus (Talk) 10:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

naveenpf (talk) 14:08, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you naveen --AshLey Msg 14:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to WikiProject Red Link Recovery

Howdy, and welcome to WikiProject Red Link Recovery.

As you are also a member of WikiProject Kerala, I have added a set of suggested fixes for red links in the scope of this project to the Red Link Recovery Live tool.

I've also activated the Malayalam language within the tool. It's understanding of the language is rather poor right now, but a small set of suggested fixes for red links on the Malayalam language Wikipedia are there in case they are of interest to you.

- TB (talk) 18:45, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Top.. AshLey Msg 07:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Kerala

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Image cloning

Creation of File:Hornbill kerala.jpg was totally unnecessary. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 12:31, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I just wanted to fix the issue in Kerala permanently. How did you find that File:Great hornbill 614.jpg will be translated to File:വേഴാമ്പല്‍-ബന്നാര്‍ക്കട്ട-പാര്‍ക്ക്.JPG? I fail to see the link! -- AshLey Msg 12:51, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Please learn the colon trick to refer to an image rather than use it. If you cannot type the script (is it Malayam?), you can at least use copy and paste. I am not surprised that you cannot see a link: File:Great hornbill 614.jpg does not translate into File:വേഴാമ്പല്‍-ബന്നാര്‍ക്കട്ട-പാര്‍ക്ക്.JPG. You need to learn your way about the Commons. If you do, you will see that I created File:Great hornbill 614.jpg as a redirect to provide a better solution to your non-problem. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 13:03, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

That's great! Actually, I copy-pasted the malayalam script, but failed repeatedly. Every time, it worked in the 1st preview and failed in the second preview or on save. Suspecting my wp:editor(Provelt), I de-activated it, but no escape, every time it went to this page (a) only. Then I tried to add a "#REDIRECT File:വേഴാമ്പല്‍-ബന്നാര്‍ക്കട്ട-പാര്‍ക്ക്.JPG" at this page (b), but still the image failed to be displayed at article Kerala. Where could be the issue? Your reply would be helpful to update my knowledge. I doubt, the redirect should not have been created in wikipedia, but in commons???--AshLey Msg 13:47, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I am very confused. Perhaps first you should address the question: why do you keep quoting
File:വേഴാമ്പല്‍-ബന്നാര്‍ക്കട്ട-പാര്‍ക്ക്.JPG (1) when the correct title is
File:വേഴാമ്പല്‍-ബന്നാര്‍ക്കട്ട-പാര്‍ക്ക്.JPG (2)? Now in my browsers name (2) appears with three of the characters replaced with little rectangles indicating that my screen fonts don't know about those codes - but despite that (2) works and (1) does not. I have restored File:വേഴാമ്പല്‍-ബന്നാര്‍ക്കട്ട-പാര്‍ക്ക്.JPG it does not work if you use it to add an image to an article - probably the mix of redirect and Commons is too much for the software. But it does contain the valid #REDIRECT [[File:വേഴാമ്പല്‍-ബന്നാര്‍ക്കട്ട-പാര്‍ക്ക്.JPG]] which you created. So explain this to me - if you were able to copy and paste വേഴാമ്പല്‍-ബന്നാര്‍ക്കട്ട-പാര്‍ക്ക് into that redirect, why were you not able to copy and paste it into an image declaration in the Kerala article? (If you had created it on the Commons, it probably would have worked.) Is it simply a problem of copying from browser address bar instead of rendered text? Incidentally the two "this page" links above don't work (it's that pesky colon business again). When corrected they become identical and should be: this page. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 16:19, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Now, both (1) and (2) do work for me, and seem identical in my browser - both have 3 red rectangles(zero width joiner). I think, the issue is related to the browser and font. Please see this diff of the article, Kerala. Here I didn't make any changes to these file-names voluntarily, but on 'saving the edit' these file-names also got affected, though I'm unable to see any difference in the file-names.The issue with File:വേഴാമ്പല്‍-ബന്നാര്‍ക്കട്ട-പാര്‍ക്ക്.JPG(1) and (2) have now been resolved and both reaches the destination file. However, File:തേങ്ങാ പിരിക്കല്‍.jpg also has the same problem. Yes, this issue started after installing an add-on to my Google-chrome following the guidance of this wiki-help. This software patch is automatically converting some the Malayalam characters in the file-name to Atomic Chillu Characters for better readability. --AshLey Msg 08:54, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Almost certainly your browser. See this diff! I assume you did not intentionally change my message. I am reversing that diff by hand with this edit - using Opera. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 10:13, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

This edit is being done using my version of Google Chrome to see if it does any changes. The change of the link to To Read in Malayalam is done by me not the browser! It shows you the proper way to do interwiki links. If you need further help, I suggest you contact Praveenp or one of the other editors of the To Read in Malayam help page. And of course you could try a different browser. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 10:34, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I have put a request in at user talk:Praveenp. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 10:43, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you RHaworth. I try this edit with IE and with that I'm able to copy-paste the correct file-name. See: File:വേഴാമ്പല്‍-ബന്നാര്‍ക്കട്ട-പാര്‍ക്ക്.JPG. Issue is with the auto-correction of new add-on SW that I installed for Google-Chrome. --AshLey Msg 11:07, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
This is an issue of dual encoding. Fix-ml extension mentioned by AshLey converts new chillu character encodings to old de-facto standard in favour of operating systems, which has no new fonts (WinXP, and Linux distributions). Since Noramalisation[1] is active in Malayalam Wiki projects, ie, whatever the encoding - it goes to database as new version,'s Help:To Read in Malayalam page is correct there. But copying titles containing converted chillu characters to link in any other MediaWiki wikies which has no normalisation, will naturally break linking (because encodings are different). New OSs like WinVista, Win7, new Mac releases, iOS4 etc has perfect support for Unicode 5.1 (atleast for chillu chars). Linux Upstream packages are also updated recently and probably available through next distribution releases or by updates. Untill then using modified fonts containing new Characters (and removing extensions like fix-ml) is the perfect solution. You can use any of the updated fonts for Malayalam here (for Linux distributions by Malayalam Wikimedians) or Popular Anjali (Windows). Regards -Praveen:talk 06:31, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

ANI mention

I have indirectly mentioned you at WP:ANI. Please see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Discussion_review.2C_please, where all should hopefully become clear. Although I am expecting to be given short shrift for posting the request there :( Nothing to panic about: any discussion should probably remain at WT:INB. - Sitush (talk) 13:11, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, Let's wait for a formal output. --AshLey Msg 13:25, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Bronyetransportyor

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Regarding Historical Vedic religion

I gave reasons in my edit summaries where I removed your [citation needed]. For instance, see my edit summary here. Besides, few of cn tags added by you were unnecessary. Such as, the last line here has a citation for the part "The Hindu rites of cremation are seen since the Rigvedic period; while they are attested from early times in the Cemetery H culture" and gives a primary source (Rig Vedic verse) for the second part "there is a late Rigvedic reference invoking forefathers "both cremated (agnidagdhá-) and uncremated (ánagnidagdha-)". You need to explain further in your edit summaries why cn tags are still required in such lines. I see you have also added other new tags this time which seem alright. But as and when your cn tag is deleted with a reason, please give your own reasons for keeping them to resolve the conflict.CorrectKnowledge (talk) 13:51, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Your revert on Kerala

In your revert on Kerala here, the reason you mentioned is WP:COI which is totally incorrect and mostly seemed to be a WP:POV. You seem to have a misundersatnding of Wikipedia's policies as Sitush rightly points out. Please take time and go through some of Wikipedia's policies like WP:NOT, WP:OR, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:POV, WP:COI, WP:CV and many other related policies so that you have a clear understanding and give the right reason in your revert.  Abhishek  Talk 14:46, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

My understanding on WP:COI suggests that it is applicable "when an editor tries to promote his pet ideas". The sources clearly indicate that Kochi ranks 1st in the tourist arrival, but the ip-editor changed it to "Thiruvanathaputam" without any additional citation. Probably, the user made an attempt to promote his native place. Anyway, I'll consult an administrator to see if my understanding is wrong. Thank you for your guidance. However, it was better to avoid a reference to Sitush's case, as it won't help to resolve anything 'positively'. --AshLey 'Msg' 07:58, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Why would my "case" not help to resolve anything? Abhishek appears to be pointing out to you that there are numerous problems with your understanding, as indeed there are. There are even instances where you have been wikilawyering from an untenable position because of this (notably, on issues relating to consensus). Perhaps it might help if when you feel the urge to cite a policy/guideline, you first check the relevant policy/guideline article to ensure that your citation will be appropriate. You are an intelligent person and will soon pick things up if you do that. - Sitush (talk) 13:53, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Abhishek, Yes, it's a mistake from me to apply COI inappropriately. Thank you for prompt corrective intervention. AshLey Msg 13:56, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Sitush, I think 2 or more time I conveyed you that I respect your experience and knowledge in policies. Frankly, I lost the good faith when you 'seemed' manipulating in the discussions @ Caste system in Kerala/India and became more severe when you fully reverted my contributions in Nambudiri with 1st assigning the reason as "poor phrasing" and on a later stage as "copyvio". I'm sorry that I assumed a personal grudge or some sort of communal issue with you and my responses were not decent. OK, let the bygones be bygones. My request to you is not to deal with new-editors aggressively; (1)before reverting please request them to self revert citing the reason (2)before pasting warnings in talk-page, just convey the matter in a soft tone.<od>I'm leaving all the personal issues behind (not because you called me intelligent, but I found in other articles that your approach is equitable there too), and let's have a fresh start. With regards -AshLey Msg 14:25, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Re: User talk:CorrectKnowledge#Historical Vedic religion

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In case you might miss it, this is a summary of the montage discussion. - Sitush (talk) 21:12, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Thank you. I have just added an Rfc template there to attract a better participation. AshLey Msg 07:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
No need, Ashley. The discussion concluded with "No montages with people images in caste related articles for now" which is not applicable to Saint Thomas Christians, since STCs are not a "Caste". Game over. -InarZan Verifiable 06:38, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
If you try that line you will find yourself having problems, in part because Ashley has for many weeks been claiming that STCs are effectively a caste and should be treated as one here. Furthermore, the discussion quite clearly refers to communities, not merely castes. I suggest that you don't do anything silly based on yet more wikilawyering. - Sitush (talk) 06:56, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
Inarzan and Sitush, I have no grief in going bald if all others share the baldness. I see a few merits in the montages while a few others see a few demerits in it; basically a POV issue. I'm waiting for external inputs and if they are also in the same line, I've no issue in following it. Since we are dealing the STC's as an ethnic group and as an empirical caste, we can't go back as you have suggested. Hello Sitush, is it simply my claim or the studies of Forrester, Fuller, Amaldass, Susan Bayly etc????? Our discussions used to slip into heated arguements due to such mischievous comments only AshLey Msg 10:47, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
I think it best to wait for Ashley's RfC to be completed. Everything in the prior discussion applies generally to any collection of images of people, whether they are in montage form or whether they do or do not belong to a caste. Sitush, re your comment in that RfC, you can always add a question or suggest modifications to the question itself if you think the wording is biased. --regentspark (comment) 15:46, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
I thought about doing that but there is little point: Ashley and I have had big problems agreeing on a single word before now. Best that someone else takes a look at it. - Sitush (talk) 15:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
Sitush, I assume good faith and welcome your improvement to RFC question. -AshLey Msg 15:55, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
I've never doubted it. But we still have problems agreeing on terminology! It's just the way it is, and some of it seems likely to be related to cultural differences (the "communal" word, for example).. Either someone else will suggest changes or it will progress in its current form. I am aware that you have modified it but I only skimmed the thing. - Sitush (talk) 15:59, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Ashley, could you opine here? --InarZan Verifiable 16:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact

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Thanks for the comment at WP:INB - you might find this interesting. The length to which what appears to me filibustering is happening to avoid “Nairs were historically enlisted in military” in the article lead-sentence is very disturbing. VSVettakkorumakansnehi (talk) 21:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:Saint Alphonsa of Kerala.jpg

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Please comment on Talk:Republic of Ireland

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Please comment on Talk:Macclesfield Bank

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Please comment on Talk:Pakistan Zindabad

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Per your suggestion on this RFC comment I have nominated both the articles at AfD .1 and 2--DBigXray 15:56, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

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Caste system in Kerala

Thank you for inviting me to review the article. I have only managed to read two of many many articles that focus on this aspect of the state of Kerala. From the little I know, I feel I am neither adequately informed nor reasonably qualified to comment yet. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 12:10, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I was confident of your expertise in the subject. Anyway, I hope, you would one day improve this article. Cheers!!!AshLey Msg 12:24, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Srebrenica massacre

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Re: Kerala

I have seen the talk, that page is in my watchlist. I'll keep watching the discussion. It is surprising that people are spending so much time on these issues rather than improving the article! --Tito Dutta 17:19, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Gulf War

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Pages related to Kerala and India

You may be interested in these four pages: one page related to Kerala and three pages related to India.

Wavelength (talk) 02:06, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Wavelength, thank you. The tool, "transcluded changes", is new to me and hopefully, it will enable me to increase my coverage. I think, your message has an inference: an advice for me to involve in more articles. Yes, it was a much needed trigger and I promise "I will". AshLey Msg 13:55, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
You are welcome. By the word "inference", you probably meant "implication". Even many people whose first language is English confuse those nouns, as well as the corresponding verbs "infer" and "imply". Those words are explained at wikt:implication, wikt:imply, wikt:infer, wikt:inference, and
I did not intend to make that implication: a piece of advice for you to be involved in more articles. I provided those links for you to use if you have the desire to do so. You do not need to promise me that you will be involved in more articles.
Wavelength (talk) 16:20, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
No, it was, actually, a desired trigger for me, since I found myself very much improved, with my increased number of activities in Wikipedia. The support and admonishments, whichthose I got from many experienced Wikipedians, have corrected my ways, increased my confidence-level and more surprisingly, influenced my POV, even in the real-life. (I think, "those" without a comma is correct, as the above case is a restrictive one. Am I right?) AshLey Msg 08:46, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
According to my understanding, both of the following versions are correct. (However, please note that distinguishing "that" and "which" is one area where experts disagree.)
  • The support and admonishments that I got from many experienced Wikipedians have corrected my ways, increased my confidence level, and, more surprisingly, influenced my POV, even in real life.
  • The support and admonishments which I got from many experienced Wikipedians have corrected my ways, increased my confidence level, and, more surprisingly, influenced my POV, even in real life.
English demonstrative pronouns include "this", "that", "these", and "those".
English demonstrative adjectives include "this", "that", "these", and "those".
English relative pronouns include "that", "which", "who", "whom", and "whose".
These words are never relative pronouns: "this", "these", and "those".
For more details, please look up the words at wikt: and
Also, please see Noetica's comments at User:Noetica/Archive6#Restrictive "which" without a comma and User:Noetica/Archive6#Non-restrictive "which" without a comma.
Wavelength (talk) 19:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Yes, got an idea of relative and demonstrative pronouns; thank you Wavelength. Another doubt that has hindered my English writings is the usage "comma" in the following context:

1. I know Jack, the tallest boy in the school team.

2. The tallest boy, Jack, is a member of the school team.

I think that 1 is OK while I'm really confused with 2. Could you please enlighten me in this matter?

Both statements are grammatically correct, although "on the school team" is also correct for statement #1. For statement #2, please see the article "Apposition".
Wavelength (talk) 14:18, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank you Wavelength. Suggested article Apposition was very much informative. (I presume that the preceding sentence is a case of false title. Can we use such phrases in WP? The correct form may be a non-restrictive one such as "The suggested article, Apposition, was very much informative". Am I right?) Sir, I know that I'm burdening you. So, next doubt will be raised only after a few days leisure time, if no urgent casualties are met while editing WP. With regards :) AshLey Msg 09:06, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
The phrase "Suggested article" (not the entire sentence) is a false title. It is best to avoid false titles in Wikipedia (except in direct quotations). False titles are found in journalese, and it is best to avoid journalese in Wikipedia (except in direct quotations). The underlined (underscored) sentence is correct. The suggested article, "Apposition", was very informative. I added quotation marks for use–mention distinction, and I removed "much". If you have additional questions, please ask them at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language.
Wavelength (talk) 15:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I have a lot to learn from the article, "use–mention distinction". Also, my improper usage of "much" is a point of concern for myself.

They do really an appreciable service at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. I found you replying some queries there, a selfless service to the open world. Thanks a lot for your kind guidance and help, sir. AshLey Msg 09:15, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Bloody Christmas

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Credo Reference

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Please comment on Talk:List of African-American firsts

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