Talk:Israel–Hamas war

Title

If this topic is notable enough to warrant its own article, it will almost certainly need a less ambiguous title.

More likely, this can be added to an article about various Hamas attacks on Israel in 2023, or over a longer period. DenverCoder9 (talk) 07:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@DenverCoder19 Well, sadly it can be changed to "2023 Israel Palestine war" soon 2A01:C22:C931:E700:78CF:B4BA:DE3D:CB0C (talk) 07:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I typed 2023 hamas attack and the first thing that came up was clashes in May. Maybe we could add October. Borgenland (talk) 07:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

there is now an operation name for this event https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/defense/558406/?app=true SignedInteger (talk) 07:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

should this become the new article name (once translated) SignedInteger (talk) 07:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/07/world/israel-gaza-attack

Both sides have referred to this as a war, and sources are reporting on it as such. Perhaps appropriate to title it as 2023 Israel-Gaza War or something similar. KiharaNoukan (talk) 07:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed.

2021 Israel-Palestine crisis is an indicator, maybe best to wait a bit and see just how serious this becomes. Selfstudier (talk) 09:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it's best for us to wait for a bit. If there is no sign of deescalation, then it's a go. BlueHelvetical (talk) 14:48, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

“Gaza-Israel Conflict” or “Gaza-Israel War, 2023” are appropriate titles. “Palestine-Israel Conflict/War” is both inaccurate and inappropriate.

Just like the geographic region known as “North America” contains 3 countries, Canada, USA, and Mexico. There is no country, “North America” nor is there a nationality, “North American.”

By the same token, the geographic area known as “Palestine” contains 3 countries, Gaza, Israel, and Jordan. There is no country, “Palestine” nor is there a nationality, “Palestinian.”

If Mexico were to attack or invade the USA, it would not be appropriate to refer to it as the “North America-USA Conflict.”

https://theworldhistoryofwar.quora.com/https-www-quora-com-If-the-Palestinian-people-didnt-exist-before-Israels-existence-then-where-did-they-come-from-answe?ch=17&oid=16745248&share=f887561d&srid=a9am&target_type=post MetroNYCJerry (talk) 16:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

what about 5th Arab-Israeli War 166.194.158.48 (talk) 19:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

If Israel attacks back, we can name it 2023 Palestine−Israel War. Andrew012p (talk) 15:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

And Israel has attack back while Gaza is under fire right now from Israel forces Efuture2 (talk) 16:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

That should not occur. While the groups are from terrorist organizations within Palestine, the Palestinian military nor government has declares actual war upon Israel. IEditPolitics (talk) 21:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. Since Benjamin Netanyahu declared war, surely the conflict is, definitively, a war? I would also like to express my deepest appreciation for everyone’s commitment to Wikipedia’s truthfulness and neutrality on this particularly divisive topic (and everything else). MrBoy632 (talk) 21:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I agreed, he had already started a counter attack. Surely it's a war, rather than a conflict. Maybe compare it with previous conflicts and if it escalates, then it's a go. Either way, I would wait for an official government statement. So far, nothing new. BlueHelvetical (talk) 03:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This is officially a war as not too long ago, the cabinet agreed on invoking article 40 aleph, which was not invoked since the Yom Kippur war, making it an official declaration of war. Zekromu88 (talk) 12:03, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

As I stated before, Palestine's government did not explicitly declare war, nor use their official military. This is an act of multiple organized terrosit groups within Gaza and Palestine in general. To call it the Palestinian Israel War would be largely inaccurate. IEditPolitics (talk) 13:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Opposed. For now, I think it is too early to call it Palestine-Israel war. The side opposed to Israel is Hamas, which does not represent the Palestinians in West Bank. We should wait for more events. Zenms (talk) 03:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Point of information – Titles of articles are generally goverened by WP:COMMONNAME which states, "the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred." Please focus on what WP:RS are using to refer to this conflict. - Fuzheado | Talk 16:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I would second the comment citing to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RS. It is easy to get caught up in various points of a conflict and forget to adhere to the guidelines set by Wikipedia. Given the statement by the Isreali Prime Minister, it would be justified in being called "2023 Israel Palestine war" and also because of the media coverage by reliable sources. It may be advisable to wait a few days to see how this progresses as there is no rush to finalize a title for the article right now. Jurisdicta (talk) 18:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

We should probably focus on getting the content right and picking the name later, something will coalesce. But people here seem to be generally on the right track and we shouldn't mind moving it and changing the name if a different one emerges. Keep in mind that no change is permanent. DenverCoder9 (talk) 22:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The conflict is occuring a bit after Yom Kippur, so shouldn't it be called ẗhe "Second Yom Kippur War" or "Yom Kippur War II"? 23.93.17.238 (talk) 22:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I have not seen a reputable source use that term. Mostly it is being characterized as a war. Invanity (talk) 22:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The infobox refers to it as the "Third Intifada", perhaps we should use that? SufficientChipmunk3 (talk) 00:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I will just note that I did hear this already referred to as "war in Israel" on television. Reference was made not only to missile attacks, but also attacks from "land and sea".

Remains to be seen but discussion over this is absolutely warranted. ShouldIHide (talk) 07:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Opposed. I believe it is way too early to call it Palestine-Israel war. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and doesn't represent Palestinians on the West Bank. I may be inclined to change my opinion as more event's unfold. --Stubbleboy23 (talk) 11:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Completely agree. Palestine did not declare war on Israel, only terrorist groups in Palestine. IEditPolitics (talk) 13:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

In Hebrew Wiki, We have two different pages for the war (he:מלחמת חרבות ברזל, Operation Swords of Iron) and for the first battle of the war (he:מתקפת הפתע על ישראל (2023), Surprise Attack on Israel (2023)). אורי9 (talk) 16:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hareetz is covering it as Israel–Gaza War; Al-Jazeera, Israel-Hamas Conflict... Oops, now Israel-Hamas war,

as does The Guardian. Thus far... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-08/ty-article-live/over-250-israelis-killed-1-590-wounded-civilians-and-soldiers-held-hostage-in-gaza/0000018b-0cd2-d8fc-adff-6dfe855e0000

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/8/israel-palestine-escalation-live-israeli-forces-bombard-gaza https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/08/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-palestinian-attack-october-2023-gaza-conflict-hostages-latest-news kencf0618 (talk) 14:25, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Israeli Commander Nimrod Aloni has been captured ?

Found this on twitter: https://twitter.com/MarioNawfal/status/1710602173262840257?s=20

Can anyone confirm with RS? Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Nothing to confirm. People are just spreading rumors because they think that this person looks like the IDF commander. ie it's social media self-research. Ignore it. Harizotoh9 (talk) 12:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

This is fake. HiyoriX (talk) 12:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Even the The Jewish Chronicle[1] is reporting it, though. FunkMonk (talk) 12:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The IDF literally published a photo of Nimrod Aloni in the meeting with the heads of the IDF yesterday. It just goes to show what a stupid, unreliable, biased propaganda tool Wikipedia has become. Hijacked by terrorists to spread fear and psychological warfare. How pathetic!

Add "non-combatants" to the Military conflict infobox

Operation Al-Aqsa Flood
Part of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict and Gaza-Israel conflict
Date 7 October 2023 – present Location Israel Gaza Strip Status Ongoing
Belligerents and Non-belligerents
Hamas Islamic Jihad	Civilian non-combatants	Israel
Commanders and leaders
Mohammed Al-Daif Ziyad al-Nakhalah		Benjamin Netanyahu Yoav Galant
Units involved
Al-Qassam Brigades Al-Quds Brigades PFLP Lions' Den	Magen David Adom Red Crescent	Israel Defense Forces
Casualties and losses
Unknown	At least 2 (in Gaza). and 7 (in Israel) civilians killed. At least 5 (in Gaza) and 3 (in Israel) civilians injured. Multiple civilians captured (in Israel)	At least 10 killed Unknown number of prisoners Armored vehicles destroyed and captured: 1 Merkava destroyed 1 Merkava captured 1 Namer APC captured Over 35 soldiers, police officers and civilians captured

Hi all, Like many, I am deeply frustrated with never ending conflicts. I believe that a major error in the reporting of such conflicts including by Wikipedians, is that it is always being presented as a two-sided conflict, when actually it is always a three-sided conflict where the third side is always forgotten about or only given as a foot note because they lack adequate representation in the conflict.

I am of course talking about the civilians.

These are unwilling participants who are being killed by being caught up in the middle of the conflict, despite not necessarily taking a side. This is particularly true of young children, who do not have a mental capability to understand, to even be able to take a side. The only ones supporting them are the medics are working tirelessly to save them. By not including them on equal footing, it is also suggesting that civilian victims are not as important as military casualties. In fact, I think that they are more important.

Even if you do not agree that non-belligerents deserve a front-seat in the conversation (and shame on you), to attribute them to a particular side is impossible given the level of reporting. All we know is what side of the border that they happened to be on when it happened.

For all we know, they could be a person of Israeli citizenship who does not politically align with the state of Israel (They could be a Palestinian living in Israel, for example). It could be a Palestinian living in Gaza who does not align with the values of Hamas. It could be someone of another state or religious affiliation or none at all.

It is disingenuous to equate a Palestinian or Gazan as someone who supports Hamas (and it might not be safe to elicit a true answer) and it is disingenuous to equate an Israeli or Jewish person as someone who supports the Israeli Government. So to include them in the info box under a particular state's figures could be offensive if it is wrong. It would be especially offensive to claim a Palestinian as an "Israeli" victim.

To the right is an example of how I believe the infobox should look like.

As it becomes known (if at all) that a civilian was supportive of a particular side, then by all means, they should be moved under the banner of which their align to. Note that it would be hard to be a "Citizen of Hamas" because Hamas is not a country and is itself a militant organisation so how is it even technically possible to be a non-combatant of Hamas. That is without a whole other can of worms of lumping Palestine with Hamas.

If it is absolutely decided that Civilians do not deserve a place of equal footing in the info box, my backup argument is that they should be included above the militants in the info box or of its own infobox above the military one, as they are the most important by virtue of being innocent and not actively making themselves part of the hostilities. Kleinerziegler (talk) 11:20, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I think we can confirm the reports of kidnapping by now, I agree non-combatants should be added Daniel (strangestuff) (talk) 11:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. It isn't the convention for such things. I think it is best to raise this up to editors who are part of the Military History task force. Borgenland (talk) 11:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Don't you think that Israel-Palestine conflict is in a bit of a unique situation compared to other conflicts where it isn't 100% clear cut that subjects of Israeli-controlled territory don't necessarily align with the national identity of Israel? Perhaps on that basis, this is the correct venue to have a discussion and make an exception.

If not, could you please point a link to the correct venue to have such a discussion? Kleinerziegler (talk) 12:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm opposed to the addition of non-combatants unless this becomes wiki-wide policy. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 12:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Not a good idea, imagine doing Ukraine. Selfstudier (talk) 12:24, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

This is primary a military conflict, with its own conventions and it would make every conflict more convoluted than it is already. Imagine having Henri Dunant listed as a field commander in the Battle of Solferino.

Anyways, move your forum here to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history

Borgenland (talk) 12:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Solferino was as far as I can tell, a purely military conflict without civilian non-combatant targets. Henri Dunant was not involved in any combat.

For Ukraine, I am very much in favour, as well as Northern Ireland, or any other conflict of civilian non-combatant targeting, especially where their national allegiance can be easily determined (for example, indiscriminate attacks in disputed territory). Kleinerziegler (talk) 12:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

But he did involve himself. Which would make him a unit Borgenland (talk) 12:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

According to the wiki page about it, the battle was already over, he was inspired by the aftermath to make Geneva conventions which relate just as much to how combatants can attack each other (or not) as it does to civilians. If he was out there on the battlefield telling sides not to kill each other in the heat of battle, or he was out supporting civilians not of any side (and the civilians without a side were actually present in that battle), yeah, I would support his inclusion. But really beside the point isn't it. Kleinerziegler (talk) 12:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Agree with others, if this was added here this rationale could really be used in most conflicts. I'm also not sure the point? We have a casualties section which typically delineates between civilians and fighters. If they were fighting together as some sort of militia group with its own wikipedia article then this might change, but as it stands I see no point as having civilians as a "third side" in really any conflict. Yeoutie (talk) 17:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

As it stands right now, civilian non-combatant casualties are not separated out at all anymore. This is really a reflection of how seriously Wikipedia (and people involved in this topic at large) really care about civilian casualties. It is just a foot note or and now not even mentioned at all because everyone wants to claim a civilian as "one of their own" to use for propaganda purposes against the other side rather than a genuine concern about civilian casualties. Kleinerziegler (talk) 03:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

There is a point of concern that I would have to ask. There have also been Palestinian civilians killed in direct clashes in the West Bank in support of what happened in Gaza. While I'm not sure if they've been included in the infobox, how will your proposal address that? Borgenland (talk) 13:59, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Non-combatants are not belligerents- casualties for civilians are covered at the bottom of the infobox. Civilian agencies operating during the war aren't relevant for the infobox - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 12:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

If you look closely, the infobox example was modified to say "Belligerents and Non-belligerents" Kleinerziegler (talk) 12:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Do also note that your proposal would add an unnecessary gap in the leaders and units, especially if no obvious relief agency is available. It would also lead to more mistakes with users having difficulties with columns particularly in conflicts were there are more than two defined sets of combatants involved. Borgenland (talk) 12:48, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

In my example, I have deliberately omitted "Commanders and leaders" because so far no one has stepped up to stand up for purely the civilian casualties.

I might argue that MDA is supporting both Civilians and IDF, while RC is supporting both Civilians and Hamas, and could be listed twice in that regards, as they don't discriminate based on combatant status.

It would seem that there is precedent for a 4-way war: Syrian civil war. Kleinerziegler (talk) 13:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

but your example did not list the Syrian Red Crescent or the White Helmets in whatever you consider to be non-belligerents. Borgenland (talk) 13:20, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

You are completely correct, the Syrian civil war should also be listed out as a 5-way war. Thank you for saying this. Kleinerziegler (talk) 03:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Abo_Yemen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) DO NOT edit others' discussion! You vandalised my example. You will be reported if you do this again! Kleinerziegler (talk) 12:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  i removed the ref tags as they were messing with the talk page Abo Yemen✉ 11:20, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

There is already a third casualties parameter in the conflict infobox template for covering civilian casualties. There is nothing unique about this conflict or any other. The same style guide applies . Iskandar323 (talk) 13:04, 7 October 2023

Support: Israel/Palestine is a special case. Even if you want to divide everyone into Jewish people and Arab people, there are many Arabs in Israel, and many pockets of formerly (or currently, depending on your perspective) Palestinian territory that can be collateral damage of Hamas' own rockets. You cannot cleanly divide many innocent bystanders into supporters of one country or another. DenverCoder9 (talk) 22:49, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

But as far as legality is concerned, those Arabs in Israel are citizens of the State of Israel and some of them are serving in the IDF and/or are reservistst. Borgenland (talk) 01:59, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: almost every conflict involves civilian casualties and the "parties" in an infobox typically represent the belligerents (and allies of said belligerents). Civilians are not fighting this war per se nor are they a belligerent. Per above and per this reasoning, adding in a "civilian party" would be superfluous and inaccurate. Dan the Animator 00:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Support: It's important to separate civilians and combatants in order to get a clear picture of the events. Yes, I know in modern conflicts like this the line between the two can be quite murky, but still. -75.142.18.247 (talk) 01:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: as per other opposes, there are already parts of the infobox to put the desired info in, and it doesn't make logical sense to have a category of belligerents and non-belligerents. AllenY99 (talk) 09:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. Whilst I appreciate the humanitarian sentiment, this is generally not how armed conflicts are conceptualised, and Wikipedia is not the place to change attitudes. Riposte97 (talk) 12:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Problem is, civilians are not under an umbrella either. Nothing unites say, an Israeli civilian killed by shelling versus a Palestinian civilian killed by shelling except for shared bad luck. Adding in groups like the Red Crescent further confuses things. What would a doctor who comes from some faraway country with aid have in commons with the previous two examples?

We group the Israeli military divisions and the Palestinian military divisions together because they fight for a side.

There really isn't a third side. Bremps... 18:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

And that would run into improper synthesis territory. If reliable media in the future (Wikipedia itself is a tertiary source) starts reporting civilians as a "third side", then we can change our infobox. That has not happened yet. Bremps... 18:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose That's not the concept of Wikipedia's conflict infoboxes. EkoGraf (talk) 18:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Infobox

Surely ‘operation al-Aqsa flood’ would be a better title to the infobox than ‘Palestinian attack on Israel’, as it’s more specific? 81.106.115.150 (talk) 11:32, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes but this article also mentions Israel's operation too. Abo Yemen✉ 11:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 7 October 2023

October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict → 2023 Palestine−Israel War – with the government of Israel declaring a state of emergency and war and most of the important palestinian groups involved in it, it only makes sense for it to be called a war rather than a conflict Abo Yemen✉ 11:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Too early, we don't know where this will lead yet. FunkMonk (talk) 11:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Perhaps wait a bit for sources to come in that it is an all-out war, otherwise Wikipedia could be pre-emptive enough to make it be widely reported as an all-out war, and from there become an all-out war. Kleinerziegler (talk) 11:58, 7 October 2023 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBECR --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 16:48, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Good idea, no need to escalate the situation ourselves. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 12:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Wait a bit. Note per NYT, "Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, a military spokesman. He told reporters that the military was not yet calling the events on Saturday a "war," even though Israel’s defense minister, Yoav Gallant, had already done so in an official statement." Selfstudier (talk) 12:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment Shall we move this to Hamas invasion of Israel on the lines of Russian invasion of Ukraine. Please note that Russia attacked Ukraine first and now both are in a war attacking and defending against each other. Same is the case here. Hamas invaded and now both are in a state of war. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 12:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  This would violate WP:IMPARTIAL and WP:BALANCE. Ghost finders (talk) 14:48, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Hamas is not a country. Selfstudier (talk) 12:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Selfstudier See 2022 al-Shabaab invasion of Ethiopia Parham wiki (talk) 12:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  No, conflict/war is more appropriate. The invasion will consist of only a part of this entry. The scope of this entry consists and will consist of the entire conflict, even if it goes beyond Hamas’s invasion and into an Israeli invasion of Gaza. 2600:6C5A:44F0:2840:E0D3:58A8:5771:A49B (talk) 02:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 06:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  Hamas's invasion of Israel is only part of the war between them, therefore, this page needs to reflect that reality. The Hamas's invasion does merit its own separate page. There is a page for the Russian invasion of Ukraine and separate page for the Russo-Ukrainian War. Lewis150 (talk) 03:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 06:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  1 - hamas isn’t a country

  2 - This invasion isn’t even completely done by hamas but several armies. If “invasion of anything” Gaza invasion of Israel would be more accurate The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  @The Great Mule of Eupatoria

  • See 2022 al-Shabaab invasion of Ethiopia. Is al-Shabaab a country? No. Yet the page is named in that way because al-Shabaab invaded Ethiopia.
  • In Russian invasion of Ukraine Russian army invaded first then Wagner and other Russian-backed forces joined. Same is here. Hamas invaded then others joined. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 07:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah you may be right about it not needing to be a country, however you are saying it like the knesset were chilling at a tea party and then Gaza attacked. The conflict in Ukraine was localised, with 2 Russian backed separatists poking at ukraines side for 8 years before Russia decided to no longer hide the proxy war, while in Gaza the relation with Israel and what it had done to the population is terrible, they have had wars before. Comparing the Palestinian population in Gaza who have reach a boiling point and fed up with the disgusting treatment of the people while casting them under the blanket of hamas to an oligarchy invading a sovereign country to restore and old empire is not so cute The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:59, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  @The Great Mule of Eupatoria Russo-Ukrainian War exists. But formal Invasion is defined in Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Similarly, Gaza–Israel conflict exists. This is about the major escalation by Hamas rather than the daily clashes. And if Israel attacked Gaza and jts citizens so did Hamas. They too were not having tea at the Palestine tower. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 08:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose for now despite the "we're at war" comment, the media is still referring to it as a conflict, so it's still the WP:COMMONNAME. There isn't anything to gain by rushing to rename something that isn't widely used yet. It's also controversial to name it after Palestine when it's specifically Hamas that the issue is with. Waiting is the best option in my opinion.
  JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 17:01, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• This scenario always happens, and the answer is always to wait. Dege31 (talk) Dege31 (talk) 17:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support 2023 Gaza-Israel war - both sides have acknowledged this to go beyond just a simple operation and rather a war. RamHez (talk) 17:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed that this should not be called a war with Palestine as this currently has nothing to do with most of Palestine (i.e. the West Bank). So 'Gaza' is correct, although IMO not really a war unless it lasts for a week or so Fig (talk) 22:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Um... Six-Day War 75.104.88.113 (talk) 23:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 06:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  Support. 41.109.187.110 (talk) 04:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 06:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Shaan Sengupta, there are sources saying invasion:

  • https://www.vox.com/2023/10/7/23907323/israel-war-hamas-attack-explained-southern-israel-gaza
  • https://nypost.com/2023/10/07/horrifying-videos-show-hamas-terrorist-invasion-of-israel/amp/
  • https://www.iranintl.com/en/202310073626
  • https://www.thestatesman.com/world/israel-palestine-war-from-hamas-invasion-to-israels-retaliation-video-1503229517.html
  • https://www.firstpost.com/vantage/hamas-invasion-of-israel-indias-pm-modi-condemns-terrorist-attacks-vantage-with-palki-sharma-28022
  • https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/07/biden-israel-hamas-saudi-arabia/

  103.241.226.129 (talk) 14:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Partially support. i think the article should be name “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood” or at least an article about the operation should be created. Stephan rostie (talk) 18:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Is the State of Palestine even involved? They gave an ambivalent statement on the matter as far as I can tell, and titling the article as such if they are not in the war would be serious disinformation Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 18:41, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• oppose - conflict still the most commonly used term by external sources Xyphoid (talk) 20:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Hamas would not doubt be claiming that it is in response to some previous invasion by Israel and by this logic it would be never ending invasions and counter-invasions of each other. Kleinerziegler (talk) 12:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBECR --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 16:48, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Since 1948, ongoing. Selfstudier (talk) 12:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Selfstudier Russo-Ukrainian War and Russian invasion of Ukraine both article exists. Whats going on since 1948 is a conflict. But this is a major escalation (won't call it war as advised above). There are articles on conflicts going on since 1948. There is a difference in both. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 12:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  If one renames Israel-Palestine conflict (the whole thing) as Israel-Palestine war, then this is just a part of that. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS but not relevant to here. Selfstudier (talk) 12:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• I'd support this, it seems to accurately describe this situation rn - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 12:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Perhaps but are sources calling it a war? Selfstudier (talk) 12:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  The words Invasion and war are different. They dont have same exact meaning. Since sources are calling/not calling it a war that's why I suggested Invasion. Because this is what it is. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 12:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Which sources are calling it (naming it) an invasion? Selfstudier (talk) 12:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Selfstudier I never said sources calling it. I said that's what (invasion) it is. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 13:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Selfstudier Anyways, sources say that Hamas has invaded/incursed/attacked Israel.

  • At least 40 killed in Hamas surprise attack on Israel
  • Hamas kills 40 in unprecedented, wide-ranging incursion into Israel. Netanyahu says ‘we are at war’
  • Hamas launches large attack on Israel as war breaks out in Gaza

  There are many more. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 13:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  I would agree with the term invasion if it would be an official proposal. Governor Sheng (talk) 13:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• I suggest we procedurally close this for now as WP:SK #6. S5A-0043^Talk 12:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Way too early to tell how the situation will evolve, and whether "war" is the right terminology to use. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Wait - This does seem likely to turn into a war, but in that case the proper title would be 2023 Gaza War in line with precedent from 2014 and 2008, or if the conflict widens beyond the Gaza area, then we will have to see what RS call it. PrimaPrime (talk) 13:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment — 2023 Gaza war exists. An article for the attack should not be voided. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 13:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Will be deleted shortly. Selfstudier (talk) 13:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  It has been redirected to this article. - Fuzheado | Talk 14:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Israel declared a state of war because of the Islamist intrusion. --Governor Sheng (talk) 13:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support 2023 Gaza War Israel said it is a war and title would be in line with the previous two Gaza wars. EkoGraf (talk) 13:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  I think such a title is too limiting since the attacks on Israel (especially the incursions into Israel by militants) including as our article say territory that is de jure Israel, are generally considered a key part of the conflict/war as they are more significant than any attacks on Israel for a long time. The previous 2 Gaza wars primarily involved fighting within Gaza. Perhaps things will change over time, but we can only go by how things stand at the moment. Nil Einne (talk) 15:24, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The PLO or Fatah aren't involved as far as I know, it would be very disingenuous to call this a "Palestine-Israel War". ChaotıċEnby(talk) 13:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Fatah and the PLO have no trademark on "Palestinian". One side of this conflict is obviously and widely referred to as Palestinian. 〜 Festucalex • talk 11:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support, Hezbollah has now started in the clashes so it's not localized to Gaza. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 14:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Too early. PLO or Fatah are not supporting as yet so calling it Palestine−Israel war is not right at this point.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 14:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. If anything, it would be a Hamas-Israel war, since the PLO and the Palestinian authorities in the West Bank don't appear to be joining in. The extent of Hezbollah's involvement appears to be a generic statement of support for Hamas (just like Iran), but they don't appear to be involved in the attacks at this time, so the proposed move is to the wrong page. I would support 2023 Gaza War, however, for these reasons and for those given by EkoGraf. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose No instead we should title it Gaza Israel war 2023. Tesla car owner (talk) 07:26, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Not an improvement. That said, 2023 Gaza-Israel War may be warranted soon. If not already. gidonb (talk) 14:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose "Palestine", because the West Bank hasn't been involved. Gaza's got its own political system for a long time. Artoria2e5 🌉 15:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I think "Israel" would need to be in the title (e.g, "Gaza–Israel"), as much of the fighting has occurred on Israeli territory. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 15:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  That makes sense for me. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:34, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Strong Support. There has been an official declaration of war by Israel. This is a full-on war not a simple conflict. PadFoot2008 (talk) 15:32, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: conflict remains the most commonly used term in external sources. It is a part of the Gaza–Israel conflict which has been ongoing for a long time, see for example Military operations of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. It might get to the stage of the Gaza War (2008–2009) or the 2014 Gaza War, but we must not rush. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Point of information - There are two contentious issues here, probably the result of a rush of editors new to editing current events articles. This requested move is about a specific title, and not about the general observation of whether this is a war or not. The question being asked is whether "2023 Palestine−Israel war" is the right title. Secondly, titles of articles are generally goverened by WP:COMMONNAME which states, "the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred." There is a lot of WP:OR or personal reflection on a war-related title here rather than citing sources. Until mainstream news sources start using a "war" label consistently, you may find staying with the current name more prudent. Looking at this list may be instructive: List of modern conflicts in the Middle East. This is all to say that breaking out a new discussion section just around the "war" label may be useful, because expressing all those opinions into the mix of this RM just makes it more confusing for all. - Fuzheado | Talk 15:45, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Gaza is enclaved and supported by Palestine Pooqn (talk) 15:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:45, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Gaza is internationally recognized as an exclave of Palestine, but has been controlled by a separate entity (Hamas) since 2007. Hamas caused the attack, not the PLO, and conflating both here would be disingenuous. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 16:45, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Palestine Israel War. Strongly support Gaza Israel War. Gaza is only a part of Palestine and does not include West Bank. However this is still a war as Israel has entered a state of war. Ecrusized (talk) 15:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support calling this a war since it is one, but I'm not sure about that specific title. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 15:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Partial Support: I believe it would be more appropriate to change the article's name to 2023 Israel Hamas war since the war is not happening in the West Bank. EloquentEditor (talk) 15:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:41, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  But Hamas isn't the only Palestinian group participating in this. FunkMonk (talk) 16:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Partial Support for 2023 Gaza War. A Palestine War would imply that it has the support of the entire PA including whatever passes for its entire military structure. Borgenland (talk) 16:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Most of the fighting yet has took place on Israeli areas, not Gaza. 2001:1970:50E1:E300:0:0:0:139D (talk) 04:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 07:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. We don't know how long this conflict will last, or how much it will escalate. No need to hurry. —Trilletrollet [ Talk | Contribs ] 16:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: Far too early to make a call on what to call this.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as this is way too early. I would like to note that it doesn't really matter what Netanyahu calls it, it only matters what reliable sources refer to it as, and at this point they are not using the term war other than when quoting the prime minister. Agree that the "gaza-israel" part should be changed however. Yeoutie (talk) 16:58, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: Call it what it is: Hamas attacking Israel and Israel defending itself. SteelersDiclonious (talk) 17:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  So much for following wikipedia’s unbiased policy, huh 78.171.44.45 (talk) 10:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 11:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose — As others have already said, it is too early to call it a "war", in terms of usage of that word in reliable sources and also the scale of the conflict. Yue🌙 17:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Strong support - Israel has declared a state of war. What is happening is more unprecedented than the 2006 Lebanon War (yes, "war"!) I'm perplexed why people insist on calling it the clunky title it has now. -- Veggies (talk) 18:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - Thus far the war does not involve Palestine at large. Gaza is only one of the Palestinian regions and Hamas is only one of its organizations. (That said, I would prefer a less clunky title than the current name.) AbbotOfLeibowitz (talk) 18:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Except Hamas isn't the only org involved in this war Abo Yemen✉ 18:32, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - It's too early to call it a war, and too early to tell where the conflict is going to go. - RockinJack18 18:48, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah agreed. Barring official declarations of war by both sides, naming something a war is best done in retrospect a few weeks or months down the line. Hard to call where this conflict/invasion will go. Unfortunately my gut does think this is going the direct of war, but we don't know that yet, and the sources aren't really supporting it yet. Jjazz76 (talk) 21:49, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support 2023 Israeli-Palestinian war. "War" because Israel itself has called it as such. "Israeli-Palestinian" because this already involves Gaza, and Palestinian militants in the West Bank have been regularly clashing with Israeli troops.VR _talk 19:48, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Strong support It's obvious by now its a full blown war.Weatherextremes (talk) 20:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for now, but it'd be good to have this discussion again at a later time. Most reliable sources still call it a conflict, and until that changes (and therefore so does the WP:COMMONNAME) I'm reluctant to support a page move at this time. Wikipedia has a lot of power when it comes to article titles, so it's important to be sure of these things. Deauthorized. ^(talk) 21:25, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Palestine" is both POV in this context and also inaccurate, as it reflects a war between Israel and the Palestinian Authority that currently is not underway, and/or a war between Israel and the land comprising the former Palestine Mandate, which it now controls, which is nonsensical. Coretheapple (talk) 21:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Comments made which state that we do not know where this will lead and the main news are referring to this under this nomenclature. Chefs-kiss (talk) 22:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support This case is not like the previous Palestinian-Israeli conflicts. It has a much larger dimension, with a high number of deaths on both sides in only one day. Israel has declared a state of war; and, in addition, it is taking place beyond the Gaza Strip and the surrounding area. Salvabl (talk) 22:25, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Strong oppose - too early to tell if this is a COMMONNAME or if this is even a war. Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Too soon - pretty obvious we may well get there, but there's no reason to jump the gun. Retswerb (talk) 22:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment Is it a considered a war yet? Cwater1 (talk) 22:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support It's definitely becoming more large-scale with the expansion of Hamas controlled area in Israel because of the Hamas offensive and the large Israeli strikes in Gaza, so it's more of a war than just clashes at this point. RowanJ LP2 (talk) 23:01, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support alternative as 2023 Gaza-Israel War. It is almost certainly a war at this point, but fighting is still localized around Gaza and doesn't exactly warrant being referred to as "Palestine-Israel"/"Israel-Palestine", at least until we start seeing action around the West Bank. BanditTheManedWolf (talk) 23:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support alternative: Move to Third Intifada. AmericanBaath (talk) 00:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  News sources do not call that, as wikipedia editors we can’t simply give events their names as it’s a violation of WP:OR. 78.171.44.45 (talk) 10:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 11:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per all sides declaring as such. Ultimograph5 (talk)
• Support as Netanyahu has declared that Israel in state of war and Hamas invasion of Israel is a good idea. As some part of West Bank is under Israeli Occupation while Gaza Strip is unitedly under Hamas Control. Lionel Messi Lover (talk)
• Oppose any move for now but support 2023 Gaza-Israel War should RS start calling it a war. (ps: strongly oppose any title that includes "Palestine" since Fatah (e.g. half of Palestine) is not a belligerent in this conflict) Dan the Animator 00:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose War against whom exactly? Where is the declaration of war and who made it? Why are some so anxious to call this an official "war"? The ink isn't even dry on the story. Perhaps an encyclopedia should follow and not lead? O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose As previously stated, not all of Palestine is directly involved in this conflict, just Gaza. ErrorDestroyer (talk) 03:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support A state of war has been acknowledged by governmental entities. This is a war between two de facto states, regardless of anyone's position, and is therefore unambiguously such.

DarmaniLink (talk) 05:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Support alternative Palestine as a whole is not involved to my knowledge,only Hamas and by extension Hamas-occupied Gaza.The article should be changed to ''2023 Hamas-Israel war'' or just ''Hamas-Israel war'' Roma enjoyer (talk) 09:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 11:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Support for “war”: I weakly support the “2023 Israel-Palestine War” naming, however I would give full support to 2023 Gaza-Israel War. 78.171.44.45 (talk) 10:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 11:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: Still too early to be calling this. (WP:NOTNEWS, WP:CRYSTAL) Iskandar323 (talk) 10:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment War has been declared, but isn't this only the Gaza half of Palestine? To my understanding, they are under separate leadership. Bremps... 00:59, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  Point of Information Capitalized War as in American Civil War or lowercase war as in Syrian civil war? Bremps... 15:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose There is not enough information to support this change as of now. I'm open to revisiting the subject as more information appears in RS to justify calling it by the proposed name. For example, how much non-Gaza Palestinian involvement have we seen shown in sources? AlexEng^(TALK) 01:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Partially Support Israeli has decarded a state of war and newspapers are reporting the declaration.[2] Israeli does not recognize Palestine and, therefore, cannot and has not declared war against Palestine. Lewis150 (talk) 02:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 11:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Wait We still hgavent received the official and de facto military reaction from West Bank, Fatah and PLO (even though one or two members of PLO seems to have involved in conflict, not all) therefore how can we say it is Israel-Palestine when half of Palestine yet still haven't involved?Eventually, West Bank will get involved too but I can not state in this course how will they get involved in. But wake me up when clashes start to occur inside and around West Bank. Cactus Ronin (talk) 02:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Wait -- User Veggies brought up the 2006 Lebanon War, but that lasted for 34 days, and is called a war in most reliable sources (and by both parties and most neutral observers). There is no minimum for how long a war can take, and we don't know yet how long this conflict/war will last, but most sources still call this a conflict. If we eventually decide to move, I agree with Dantheanimator's reason to prefer 2023 Gaza-Israel War (and to strongly oppose the currently proposed move). Renerpho (talk) 03:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  PrimaPrime's alternative 2023 Gaza War may be even better. Renerpho (talk) 03:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  However the war is not taking place in Gaza, it is in Israel. For now at least. 2001:1970:50E1:E300:0:0:0:139D (talk) 04:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 07:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  I strongly support the removal of "October". The year is enough. Renerpho (talk) 17:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Until farther development. See where it leads and if it's materialize. Mathsquare (talk) 03:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: I have no opinion on what this article ought to be called, but apparently a reminder of policy is necessary: we don't decide facts ourselves. We describe things as they are described by sources. The only factor in naming this article is what sources are calling it. Don't !vote based on your own opinion of whether it should be called a war. That's original research. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment, can this be closed as a "no"? This will allows users to open a new move discussion with the word "war" but without the word "Palestine". Abductive (reasoning) 04:26, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  That's not necessary. If we find that there is consensus for a move to any of the alternatives, the closing user can choose to move to that. I also don't think it would be a great idea to start a new move request immediately after this one has been closed, at least not if the consensus is to wait. Renerpho (talk) 05:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Unless an actual declaration of war is made, we should probably wait until either the conflict ends, or a month from now, whichever is earlier.

  @Animal lover 666: Please don't forget to sign your edits.[3] Renerpho (talk) 06:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment It appears now Hezbollah is involved making it more than an Gaza-Israel conflict. Completely Random Guy (talk) 06:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support 2023 Israel incursion, inline with articles like those listed at 2023 Nablus incursion, 2023 Jenin incursion; it is both accurate and takes into account that this has now spread beyond Palestine with the intervention of Hezbollah. BilledMammal (talk) 06:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  And what about the missile attacks on other israeli cities & the air bombardment of gaza? This article’s name needs to cover all scopes of the war 78.171.44.45 (talk) 13:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)  Note: Wikipedia:ARBECR and WP:A/I/PIA restriction applies. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 13:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Move to 2023 Arab−Israeli War since it is more than just Palestinian forces now GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 07:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Its a war between Gaza (Hamas terrorists) and Israel nation. So we should title the article as Gaza Israel war 2023 or just Gaza Israel war. Whoever saying it's not war, should read speech of Mr. Benjamin Netanyahu, he said "We're at war". Its an unprecedented terrorist attack on the country. Source - [ https://abcnews.go.com/].
• Oppose for now. The conflict is recent, media coverage hasn't generally referred to it as a 'war', and Palestine as a state hasn't been militarily involved as of yet. Best to wait for official Palestinian pronouncements and/or further developments. Johnnyconnorabc (talk) 08:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment To anyone suggesting an alternative name, please try to cast a support !vote with the suggested alternative name instead of an oppose !vote. TwistedAxe [contact] 09:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Too early, let the dust settle for a few days and reliable sources will have a clearer understanding that we can use.Makeandtoss (talk) 09:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose The proposed title is somewhat erratic because it resembles a war between a geographic region and a state. It's like New England–Massachussetts war. However the actual name is also erratic. While it is possible to name a war after a region, e.g. Gaza war, we can't name it Gaza–Israek war as well for the same reason. Hamas–Israel war isn't good also becaus there are several more groups involved. --Matthiasb (talk) 11:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  Palestine is the common name of the State of Palestine and it doesn't refer to a geographic region (at least in our case) Abo Yemen✉ 12:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support The security cabinet of Israel has officially declared and referred to the conflict as a "war", thus it is now officially considered such. SlySabre (talk) 12:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  According to WAPO< "Israel’s declaration of war, a mostly symbolic formality, would allow the government to enact a wider mobilization of military reserves and compel the government to identify specific wartime objectives, raising the specter of a ground invasion of Gaza." Anyway, what counts is not what Israel says but what most sources say. Selfstudier (talk) 12:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose It's too early for that. NoNAja (talk) 12:59, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Not all of Palestine is participating, just the Gaza strip. Andro611 (talk) 13:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Wait - it's difficult to say what history will think of this conflict. For now, I think the current title is best. A year from now? Who knows? --B (talk) 13:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support: Declaration of war was approved so it makes sense to call this a war. RPI2026F1 (talk) 16:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose any title that conflicts Hamas and Palestine; they are different entities. Esolo5002 (talk) 16:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support alternative: Many news sources and experts are calling this a Third Intifada. It should be moved to such under WP:COMMONNAME. AmericanBaath (talk) 18:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment

There have been a large range of proposed titles so I thought I'd sum up the possibilities raised so far.

Year disambiguator:

Option 1) October 2023 (status quo)

Option 2) 2023 (all alternative proposed titles have not included the "October".

Location descriptor:

Option A) Gaza−Israel (status quo)

Option B) Palestine−Israel (RM proposal)

Option C) Gaza (proposed by EkoGraf, "2023 Gaza War)

Option D) Israel−Palestine (proposed by VR)

Option E) Arab−Israeli (proposed by GloriousExistence)

Option F) Hamas−Israel (proposed by Red-tailed hawk)

Conflict descriptor:

Option i) Conflict (status quo)

Option ii) War (RM proposal)

What I'm seeing so far is that most people seem to favour "2023" over "October 2023", there is no consensus about the location descriptor, and also that despite the declaration of war there is relatively little support for changing the "Conflict" to "War". As a result it seems like the most likely title will be "2023 Gaza−Israel conflict" unless opinion changes. Am I missing anything? Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 13:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Chessrat Can Hamas Invasion of Israel also be proposed on the line of Russian invasion of Ukraine. Please note that Russia attacked Ukraine first and now both are in a war attacking and defending against each other. Same is the case here. Hamas invaded and now both are in a state of war. I put this before too in the discussion above. I was told that Hamas in not a nation. So is al-Shabaab (not a nation). But 2022 al-Shabaab invasion of Ethiopia exists. Then I was told that how am I saying that Hamas initiated this. Well if we compare it with Russia-Ukraine situation then Russo-Ukrainian War was going on by separatist forces. But then Russia escalated and invaded Ukranian formally and Russian invasion of Ukraine was made. Similarly Gaza–Israel conflict and regular clashes were going all the time but then Hamas escalated and invaded Israel. There was also a claim that according to reports only Hamas is not involved others too are. For that in Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russia invaded and then Russian-backed forces like Wagner joined. Similar case here Hamas invaded and then Hamas backed forces (allies) like Hezbollah joined. Can we consider my proposal too like all other. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 13:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I think Gazan invasion would be more appropriate if we are to be inclusive of all groups. Borgenland (talk) 14:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hezbollah is not in Gaza Parham wiki (talk) 14:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This is a nice summary that is well reasoned and is consistent with existing naming conventions. It may be useful to survey what reputable media outlets are labeling this event, since WP:COMMONNAME does advise us to consider what reliable sources are using. - Fuzheado | Talk 14:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose So far only the Gaza Strip is involved. --Synotia (moan) 14:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  as @Parham wiki said, Hezbollah is not in Gaza Abo Yemen✉ 14:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support but as 2023 Gaza–Israel War. This is a war, and it is being recognized as such by the media. --(Roundish ⋆t) 15:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose title as proposed, but support 2023 Gaza war or 2023 Gaza–Israel war. “Palestine” in this case is inaccurate, as it seemingly implies the West Bank/PA is involved when they simply put are not. For now, it’s just Hamas in Gaza. The Kip 16:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  that means you support the renaming of the article; you should change it to "Support 2023 Gaza war or 2023 Gaza–Israel war." without the oppose Abo Yemen✉ 17:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment As it stands today, this is war with Hamas. Hence, Hamas must be in the title. My very best wishes (talk) 17:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  Atm, NYT is running its live commentary as "Israel Gaza conflict", WAPO/AJ as "Israel Hamas conflict", Guardian as "Israel Hamas war", AP/Reuters as "Hamas attack" so nocon there either. Selfstudier (talk) 17:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support War was officially declared by Israel for the first time in 50 years so it is a war. Someone Not Awful (talk) 18:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment Maybe it should be something more like "Gaza-Israel War" or "Hamas-Isreal War" instead since the conflict is only between Gaza and Isreal and does not include either the West Bank nor the government of the State of Palestine? Artemis Andromeda (talk) 18:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support a rename to "2023 Gaza-Israel War", but Oppose a rename to "2023 Palestine-Israel War" - I support changing the conflict part of the name to war and removing "October" since this is the most significant conflict of the year there and could extend past this month. However, I think that changing "Gaza" to "Palestine" is unnecessary and overly exaggerates the extent of the conflict, since only the Gaza strip has been involved so far. It if extends outside of Gaza, then it can be changed to Palestine. ChrisWx 🌀 (talk - contribs) 19:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support a rename to "2023 Gaza-Israel War" per declaration and above comments.Spilia4 (talk) 19:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Map of alleged territory seized by Hamas

I have stumbled upon this tweet which purportedly displays the towns under temporary Hamas occupation. Should this image be included in the article? https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1710584095632163250 Ecrusized (talk) 12:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

A proper map should be made if we are to show the occupied towns LuckTheWolf (talk) 12:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

We could use this: Template:Israeli-Palestinian conflict detailed map

Just add more cities to it in southern Israel, with control and ongoing engagements and all that - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 12:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes DBakampaka (talk) 08:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hundreds of Israel casualties from Hamas rockets?

The introduction suggests this but the cited sources do not substantiate this. Is there any evidence from credible sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by El-Baba (talk • contribs) 13:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Probably not from the rockets alone but also the incursions. Borgenland (talk) 15:03, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

This number presumably includes all people who died under any circumstances directly attributable to the terrorists. It includes rockets, invasions, any accidents which may have occured on the way to the shelters, any "friendly fire" which occured while trying to deal with terrorists, any suspicious people who were killed and subsequently realized not to be terrorists (one such case was reported on the media already, a driver) etc. Animal lover |666| 14:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hundreds of Israelis have been killed/murdered by militants/terrorists who conquered/took control of Israeli communities, villages and bases. Only a few have died from rocket fire. Israeli media currently reports at least 600 dead, 250 killed by Hamas militants/terrorists during a peace rave near Kibbutz Rehim. Homerethegreat (talk) 16:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Norwegian response

I can't edit the article due to its status, so I'll just put it here. The Norwegian Prime Minister, Støre, has said on Twitter [4]https://twitter.com/jonasgahrstore/status/1710621092673429700 that "Norway strongly condemns the attacks on Israeli civilians and ask that the violence stops immediately. This is a very serious situation developing. Israel has the right to defend itself against military attacks. It is important the violence does not escalate." 109.247.106.208 (talk) 12:45, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

There's an official translation in English I didn't see: [5]https://twitter.com/jonasgahrstore/status/1710620794198323432 109.247.106.208 (talk) 12:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Just added it! ChaotıċEnby(talk) 13:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's that important what the Norwegian Prime Minister said. I wouldn't add it. 82.147.226.240 (talk) 01:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Why would the response of the Norwegian Prime Minister be less important than the response of other heads of state, as listed in International reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict? Renerpho (talk) 05:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This has been added to International reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict, thanks. Renerpho (talk) 05:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Response weight

As always with such pages, a wall of response material is rapidly being added without a logical stopping point - if 200 countries responded, would the page simply list all 200 responses? A simple starting point for rationalizing this would be to ditch pure twitter/X content. Foreign ministry tweets are a primary source; without secondary sources supporting the mention of such primary statement, they have no weight and are undue. I would suggest initially removing responses that do not have secondary sources supporting them, and potentially later tightening this to multiple secondary sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The detailed wording usually adds no knowledge. A sentence such as "The attacks were condemned by countryone[ref], countrytwo[ref], ... and supported by countrya[ref], ... would seem sufficient, with more detail when anything substantial rather than routine is said. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 13:49, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Based on experience, it is better to condense such statements after things quiet down, because some editors are quite touchy especially if it deals with their home countries. Please do note also that a lot of countries, including mine, have lots of migrant workers in Israel so I might add ours the moment it comes out. Borgenland (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

We know that the West will support Israel by default and the rest of the world will call for restraint, with a few outliers supporting the Palestinians, so listing every single country in the western block with their identical statements is pointless. FunkMonk (talk) 15:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Reactions are added, until they become too numerous. In that case, only reactions covered in secondary sources may be kept. If that becomes too voluminous as well, a split is in order. Simple procedure. Dege31 (talk) 17:18, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Reactions are not inherently notable. They do not need to be covered at all unless the reaction itself has been the subject of analysis. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Im going to condense and split off. nableezy - 17:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

and done. nableezy - 17:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

That's a major change; there should be a consensus first.–St.nerol (talk) 17:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

There is precedent, same thing was done with 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis, split off to International reactions to the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis. Logical, I think. Selfstudier (talk) 22:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

If your only objection is a lack of prior consensus then you dont have an objection. If you have a reason in support of a listing of reactions belongs in this article feel free to provide it. nableezy - 04:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

nableezy's action is in the spirit of WP:BRD, "there should be a consensus first" is not a problem. Pol098 (talk) 12:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Romanian response

https://twitter.com/KlausIohannis/status/1710570418753474952: Romania strongly condemns this morning rocket attacks against Israel. We stand in full solidarity with Israel in these terrible moments. Our thoughts are with the families of victims and with those who are under fire. Cristi767 (talk) 13:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree it's notable. But it would probably be better placed in the "international reactions" article instead of this. Only the superpowers and great powers deserve mention, in my opinion. KlayCax (talk) 01:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This has been added to International reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict, thanks. Renerpho (talk) 05:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Duplicate

ElijahPepe keeps recreating a duplicate at 2023 Gaza war. Admins, notice this, please. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 13:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

This article is now up for the deletion process, so arguments against its existence should be taken there and no further redirects should occur until it is closed. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 13:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Should be redirected here, not deleted. It's a valid search term. FunkMonk (talk) 13:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Link: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2023 Gaza war. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 13:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel has now officially declared war. Name should remain. 24.20.147.65 (talk) 13:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I have speedy closed that deletion request so that 2023 Gaza war redirects to this article. - Fuzheado | Talk 14:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Here's a stub which also seems to be unneeded: Stand-off in Be'eri and Ofakim FunkMonk (talk) 19:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Open air prison by HRW

@KiharaNoukan: Your removal of sourced content is not only counterproductive to the state of the article but also in violation of 1RR. There is no reason not to include this important piece of information that belongs in the background section. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

You deleted sourced content factually stating that the Blockade of the Gaza Strip is conducted by both Israel and Egypt to insert WP:UNDUE POV calling the blockade an "open air prison." KiharaNoukan (talk) 13:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The HRW source I used (UN, Amnesty International, among others have made the same characterization) has called Gaza an open-air prison due to the Israeli blockade while mentioning Egyptian restrictions at Rafah border and not an Egyptian blockade; making my edit completely due and yours completely unsourced. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss Here is a very recent Reuter's article stating: "Israel, which along with Egypt maintains a tight blockade of the Gaza Strip" However, for the sake of each others' sanity and time, do you want to discuss this on the admin noticeboard page you opened up before giving me a chance to respond, or do you want to discuss this here? KiharaNoukan (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Both these things are common in sources so both should go in, properly sourced. Both are potentially POV, one because there is no comparison between the Israeli and Egyptian control and the other because it is in general, although not only, rights groups using the phrase open air prison. Selfstudier (talk) 14:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

While I would disagree with that characterization, given the extensively more thorough article on the blockade mentioning a dual nation blockade on line 1 of the lead indicating it to be a clearly WP:DUE short descriptor of the blockade, I don't see a problem with inserting both, with like you said, proper sourcing. "The Gaza Strip has been subject to an Israeli and Egyptian blockade since 2007, described by HRW as an 'open air prison.'" or something along those lines would work for me for consensus. KiharaNoukan (talk) 15:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Works with me, for now. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

As of this comment, an editor has already added in "economic hardship", left in the dual-nation blockade, and has recent sourcing directly connecting it to the attacks to make their additions evidently WP:DUE, I think these additions work better than my verbatim proposal, while maintaining the same content as the consensus reached. KiharaNoukan (talk) 05:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

What’s with the Nepalis?

Is it a transliteration of a Hebrew word or are these actual nepalis? TomGoLeen (talk) 14:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Actual Nepalis - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 14:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

There were Nepalese nationals who got caught up. But I do recognize the the demonym needs to be clarified. Borgenland (talk) 14:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The article should say why Hamas kidnapped Nepalis. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 18:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

No available explanation yet. Though I'd suspect they'd accuse them of propping up "enemy" economy. Borgenland (talk) 14:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Forgot to mention it but I added a link in the infobox to Nepali people to clarify it. (Don't change the link even if I know it's a redirect, specifically to avoid further confusion like this) ChaotıċEnby(talk) 20:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Simchat Torah, Shemini Atzeret, and Shabbat

One should remember that not only is Yom Kippur a much more important holiday than Simchat Torah (one with military implications- Yom Kippur is a fast day), Shabbat is not a holiday in the same sense as either- it happens once a week. I would remove the mention of Shabbat and perhaps clarify the difference between Simchat Torah and Yom Kippur. Tangle10 (talk) 14:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

It also occurred on Shabbat which is rest day. But aside from that, could you also clarify Succot? There are also mentions of that holiday. Borgenland (talk) 14:25, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Sukkot ended right before this happened, and is a feast holiday. Tangle10 (talk) 15:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tangle10 So many mistakes. There were three different occasions on the day of the initial attacks: Shabbat, Shemini Atzeret and Simchat Torah. Of the three, Shabbat is the most halakhically limiting. Yom Tov, such as Shemini Atzeret, is second to Shabbat. Simchat Torah has no halakhic significance on its own, despite being the most culturally prominent among the three. The combination of these three different occasions caused a unique difficulty: it's as halakhically limiting as possible (Shabbat), as laid back as possible (Shemini Atzeret, which is a "Yom Tov", a time of family dinners and time off work), and one of the happiest and busiest day in the Jewish year, especially for young parents and their kids (Simchat Torah). Joalbertine (talk) 12:24, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The proper, biblical name of the holiday is Shemini Atzeret. In Israel, Simchat Torah is celebrated on Shemini Atzeret, a one-day holiday immediately following the seventh (final) day of Sukkot. In the Diaspora, Shemini Atzeret is a two-day holiday immediately following the seventh day of Sukkot, and Simchat Torah is celebrated on the second day of Shemini Atzeret (which is colloquially referred to as Simchat Torah rather than "the second day of Shemini Atzeret"). The day the war started was Shemini Atzeret (and Shabbat) in both Israel and in the Diaspora, and it was Simchat Torah in Israel, but it was not Simchat Torah in the Diaspora. 108.21.213.213 (talk) 03:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The bible does not say anything about a day called Shmini Atzeret. It says "On the eighth [the Hebrew word is Shmini, and as an adjective it comes after the noun in Hebrew] day, you shall have an Atzeret [the exact meaning of this word is unclear, but it's at the beginning of the clause (not unusual in biblical Hebrew), immediately after the word "Shmini"]". Animal lover |666| 14:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Animal lover 666 This etymological information is irrelevant. I believe the point was that Shemini Atzeret is דאורייתא (a mitzvah originating from the Torah), as opposed to Simchat Torah which is not even דרבנן but is simply not a mitzvah of any kind. Joalbertine (talk) 15:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Support

Support should be added in the infobox. The Pentagon, the highest US military body, announced its support and readiness to provide what Israel needs. Iran expresses its full support for the Palestinians. Dl.thinker (talk) 14:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I removed it from the infobox earlier. At this point the support is solely diplomatic. Wouldn't "support" as a belligerent only make sense if the DOD was actually supplying materiel? --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 14:32, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel's military is funded by the US by default, so that would be pointless. FunkMonk (talk) 14:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Imagine having to pitch in the rest of Europe arming the IDF and every Eastern bloc country supplying Kalashnikovs to Hamas. Borgenland (talk) 15:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Someone re-added it? Doesn’t seem to have reached consensus or have a source, also seems poorly placed as it’s diplomatic support, I’m removing it if I don’t see any other reasons for it staying up Bobisland (talk) 12:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Civilian/Combatant casualties/injuries?

Is there an accurate representation for how many combatants have been injured/killed? I think it would be a far more accurate representation for those who are curious as to how the war is going, which we now cant quite get a good sight on.

[Reply by zoryz_]

This information is almost certainly not available yet. This is still a highly fluid conflict. Perhaps the sides will make announcements with the numbers of combatants and civilians at some point, but we must wait. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 14:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

From what I understand, reports from the Palestinian side didn't specify how many victims were civilians or terrorists. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 14:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Map

Hi Stowgull, not sure if you intentionally added it back but IMO the map is pretty pointless: we have limited knowledge of the territorial gains and the actual border is ridiculously low quality with no details on checkpoints, roads, etc. – Isochrone (T) 14:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the map. The map itself isn't well-sourced (the Commons page doesn't really have a good list of sources), and we should avoid placing unverifiable information in the infobox of an article. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

If anything, a new, verifiable map should really be made from the UN OCHA map or using the relevant OCHA GIS data. – Isochrone (T) 15:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Also see #Map of alleged territory seized by Hamas where I suggested using the existing Israel-Palestine map template for a map - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 18:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Isochrone That was unintentional. Was just trying to correct the capitalization. Stowgull (talk) 15:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Flag

I don't know why the flags were removed from the Reaction section, it just makes it more difficult to identify countries. BlackShadowG (talk) 14:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Magnolia677 (talk · contribs) appears to have removed them. Their edit summaries cited WP:OL and WP:DECOR. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 15:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is that it's somewhat standard to not have flags there, but I'm having trouble finding that in MOS:FLAG. My guess is that it's to do with MOS:NOICONS. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Then we’re gonna need a way better solution than the current format because right now this is very unhelpful and confusing in my opinion. S5A-0043^Talk 15:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

MOS:NOICONS only banned the use of flags in prose, this section is in list format. BlackShadowG (talk) 15:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The icons serve no navigational function, and country names are not linked. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

they do Abo Yemen✉ 16:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

They do serve a navigational function, they're visual identifiers. Much faster to spot a flag than to comb through words. Killuminator (talk) 16:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Killuminator exactly Abo Yemen✉ 16:18, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

One could convert this into an actual tabular list rather than the current WP:PROSELINE that we've got. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Most of the reaction section is undue, with the listed reactions being largely based on primary sources, i.e. twitter posts, with no secondary sources establishing weight. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: This is a reasonable point. Is this a practice that is typically followed on other pages with global "reactions" sections? Is there no presupposition of notability if, let's say, the UN makes a statement? Just curious. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Beyond sourcing, when there are hundreds are reactions, some sort of prioritisation is necessary. A statement by the UN secretary general would be meaningful - a statement just put out by the press office might not be, unless covered in secondary sources for some reason. Serious interview-sources statements by country leaders are also pretty worthy of mention, but this doesn't particularly apply to tweets, which more often than not are just generic words scripted by aides. The next level down are foreign minister statements, which again can be worthy of mention with the same provisos (tweets are again the lowest common denominator), and below that are all the generic foreign ministry statements, which are often little more valuable than your average press release material. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense. I will do some vetting of the tweets to see if they've been picked up in RS (or if there are better sources instead). --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 17:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: How's this: We start to hide (<!-- -->) countries where there are no secondary RS. We can delete them later if no sources emerge later. Figure it's easier than removing and then re-adding later. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 17:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

instead of hiding how about just marking them with a [Better source needed] Abo Yemen✉ 17:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Duh, that's a better intermediate step. Yes, let's do that. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 17:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

the flags section has been split to List of international reactions to the October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict Abo Yemen✉ 17:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Taliban

An Russian Telegram Channel wrote, that the Taliban supports Hamas. Link: https://t.me/c/1650319399/1/1993585 لهثسن (talk) 15:01, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, but this appears to be a private Telegram channel. (I can't even see the message without joining the channel.) If you can find a news article from a mainstream source mentioning this information, I'd be happy to add it. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 15:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Flag map of the conflict

based on https://liveuamap.com/ i made a flag map of the war. 47.204.53.161 (talk) 15:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

See #Map above. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Info box: add Iran to the "diplomatic support" for the palestinian groups

should we add a "diplomatic support" to the infobox for the palestinian side? because Iran is the only country that out right support the palestinian groups, and it shows america on the Israeli side. just my thoughts

Proposed infobox

October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict Part of the Gaza–Israel conflict File:Israeli casulties Oct 2023.webp File:Tank captured by palestinians.png Clockwise from top: Israeli casualties during Operation Al-Aqsa Flood, Palestinians celebrating the capture of an Israeli tank, Palestinian attacks on Israeli base, Rocket impact on a car in Rishon LeZion Date 7 October 2023 – present Location Israel and Gaza Strip, Palestine Status Ongoing Belligerents Palestine Hamas PIJ PFLP DFLP File:Lion's Den Emblem.png Lions' Den Diplomatic support: Iran Israel Diplomatic support: United States Commanders and leaders Mohammed Al-Daif Abu Obaida Isaac Herzog Benjamin Netanyahu Yoav Galant Herzi Halevi Kobi Shabtai Units involved Al-Qassam Brigades Al-Quds Brigades Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades National Resistance Brigades Israel Defense Forces Israel Police Strength 1,000 Casualties and losses 198 Palestinians killed, 1,610 injured 100+ Israelis killed, 908 injured, 53 captured 17 Nepalis captured by Hamas, 7 Nepalis injured References

Durranistan (talk) 15:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not part of convention for such infobox. Attempts to do so have been reverted. Borgenland (talk) 15:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• @Abo Yemen: I've noticed that you removed part of a diplomatic support section from the infobox on the basis that never in wikipedia have i seen a "diplomatic support" section. You seem to only have done this on the Palestinian side in the infobox; your edit left intact a "diplomatic support" note involving the United States on the Israeli side of the infobox. Why delete the one on the basis that you've never seen it before while leaving the other one? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Diplomatic support does not go in an infobox. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 15:20, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Is there a reason for this? I believe I've seen it in infoboxes before. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Infobox is for active military support only (eg Belarus in the Russian invasion of Ukraine) ChaotıċEnby(talk) 15:58, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Let me rephrase. Is there some discussion that came to community consensus on that conclusion? I'm not aware of any, though I'd be happy to take a look at links if you'd be willing to provide them. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  "Diplomatic support" is mentioned in the infobox for Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. It used to be on Soviet–Afghan War as well. AmericanBaath (talk) 00:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  Some parts removed at the same time that other editors put the opposite side on. Borgenland (talk) 15:51, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  i removed both of them but someone else added it back and i didn't really focus on it. Let's add back the standard "Supported by:" Abo Yemen✉ 15:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Diplomatic Support in favor of Hamas

Could someone Add "Diplomatic Support" in the Palestinian section of the Template:Infobox military conflict. The countries/Organisations who Support Palestine are Hezbollah and Iran. Source (in German): https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Hamas-Attacke-erhaelt-Beifall-von-Israels-Feinden-article24447286.html لهثسن (talk) 15:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

See above. – Isochrone (T) 15:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Finlands response

Finnish foreign minister Elina Valtonen tweeted support for Israel, a tweet which was retweeted by the finnish government twitter page. https://x.com/elinavaltonen/status/1710561468419039583?s=20 Someone with edit perms please add this response, thank you Jukuboi (talk) 15:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

PFLP

Should "socialist PFLP" be this prominent in the article? Why socialist and not secular? There is no explanation of secular PFLP's new cooperation with Hamas. Sometimes organization ideologies and networks change after decades. If all there is is a tweet and PFLP website I hoping someone else will remove it or make it less prominent for the time being. Ben Azura (talk) 16:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I removed "socialist" because we don't make any special ideological note for the other Palestinian groups. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Add response from Portuguese President and Prime Minister

Both the Portuguese president and the Prime Minister condemned the attacks branding them as "Unacceptable". The Portuguese prime minister said: "The attacks from today against Israel are unacceptable and deserve our strong condemnation. We are sorry for the victims of these attacks, we leave a word of solidarity to their families."

Taken from the following articles in Portuguese:

https://e-global.pt/noticias/lusofonia/portugal/portugal-primeiro-ministro-condena-ataques-em-israel/

https://www.publico.pt/2023/10/07/politica/noticia/israel-marcelo-costa-condenam-ataques-inaceitaveis-nao-ha-portugueses-afectados-2065916 PedroSheridan (talk) 16:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Title should be updated to include War

As Israel declared a state of war in the morning of October 7, shouldn't the title be updated to reflect the change of status from operation to war Efuture2 (talk) 16:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

A new RM can be proposed once the current RM, which includes some discussion about this, is dealt with. Selfstudier (talk) 16:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

see #Requested move 7 October 2023 Abo Yemen✉ 16:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done - Please see discussion above for the existing requested move. - Fuzheado | Talk 20:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Over-linking of titles

In the list of presidents and prime ministers who offered support for Israel, do we need to link each leader's title? It creates a MOS:SEAOFBLUE and isn't really necessary. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

If you BOLDly removed the links to the titles, I would not revert you. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:49, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Map

Perhaps it would be convenient if there was a map that showed what countries' positions were. Dl.thinker (talk) 16:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

A map would be very helpful here, especially if it indicated where the fighting has been. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 19:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Andrew012p (talk) 19:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia as a palestine supporter?

I think the part of Saudi Arabia should be in the neutral section instead of the "Palestine support" one,since they speech was more to a peaceful solution to the war Lucasmota0975 (talk) 17:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

It was a bit of a mixture, I'd say keep it where it is but as its position potentially evolves, it could be changed - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 18:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it is appropriate the way it is now Stephan rostie (talk) 18:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Lucasmota0975 I agree it should be changed to neutral. 124.123.164.140 (talk) 18:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

New attacks against Tel Aviv

Hamas has fired 150 rockets towards Tel Aviv

source: https://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/i/on2pog/nye-rakettangrep-mot-israel in Norwegian 158.248.72.36 (talk) 17:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

CNN, in English NotAGenious (talk) 18:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

original telegram? NotAGenious (talk) 18:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Israeli retaliation

At least 200 people have been killed and 1,610 wounded in the Palestinian enclave of Gaza during Israel’s retaliation after a surprise attack by Palestinian forces into Israel, the health ministry says [6] better add this to the Intro page for more context and a balance. Mujiwins (talk) 18:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done -- Jprg1966 ^(talk) 18:51, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Armenian reacation

Can someone ddd the Armenian reacation? Source:

https://newsarmenia.am/news/in_the_world/mid-armenii-shokirovany-nasiliem-mezhdu-palestintsami-i-izrailem-i-targetirovaniem-grazhdanskogo-nas/ لهثسن (talk) 18:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Doing... NotAGenious (talk) 18:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

N I withdraw - I'd like to see an official, reliable statement by the ministry. NotAGenious (talk) 18:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Updated casualties tolls

Reported casualties so far:

- Israel: 250 dead, 1,104 injured

- Gaza: 232 dead, 1,697 injured

source: BNOnews

https://twitter.com/bnonews/status/1710725503655596082

Stephan rostie (talk) 19:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done I believe BNO's Israeli numbers are off here. The number at one time was 150+ Israeli dead and 1,104 injured. Those have each now been updated to 200+ and 1,452. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 19:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support and opposition in the lead

Should countries support/opposition be mentioned in the lead? I was under the operating assumption that generally these sorts of things should be mentioned in the leads of conflicts. But I'm not sure if that'd make this page too verbose.

@Jprg1966: reverted the addition, unknowingly, I reverted his. So I just wanted to reach some sort of consensus with him + other editors on the page. :)

Thanks! KlayCax (talk) 19:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Right, my main concern was that the language reflect the balance of actual opinions voiced so far. So I tried to do that with my last edit. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 19:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks good. @Jprg1966:. I don't have a strong preference for inclusion/deletion. Not sure if there's a general "rule of thumb" in conflict-type situations or whether it's up to the judgement of editors in each article. KlayCax (talk) 19:28, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I summarized it[7]. I don't think nitty gritty details are for the lead (like it doesn't matter that PA's support for the uprising happened at an "emergency meeting").VR _talk 19:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Title

I think the title should be changed to 2023 israeli gaza war first of all not to be confused with the 2023 may conflict and because this is way more than a "conflict" Fnfp (talk) 19:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done - Please see the discussion above for the existing requested move. - Fuzheado | Talk 20:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Talk:October_2023_Gaza−Israel_conflict#Requested_move_7_October_2023 Cwater1 (talk) 22:41, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Page move needed on a technicality

The current separator between "Gaza" and "Israel" in the name is a minus sign −, instead of an en dash –. Per MOS:DASH, an en dash is the correct character here. Would also need to be applied to the international reactions page. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 19:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done, can you update the redirects and text? Andre🚐 20:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)My apologies, I accidentally moved the talk page without moving the article itself. Someone else has to do it, it's protected. Andre🚐 20:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

We'll need an admin for this :( ChaotıċEnby(talk) 20:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Yep. I was able to move the reactions page, though. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 20:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I moved it back to keep it consistent and get rid of the red link until the article gets moved. - RockinJack18 20:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

PFLP?

The lead mentions that the PFLP is involved with the attacks. Which reference verifies this? Cullen328 (talk) 21:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The infobox appears to link to a statement on PFLP's website. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 21:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

That statement is a primary source and is non-specific bluster. Are they actually a part of today's attacks? Cullen328 (talk) 22:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Someone kidnapped has been identified

Shani Louk, a German citizen, who was seen unconscious in that pickup truck video was identified and reported to be missing by her relatives, as she was attending an outdoor party in Urim, Israel. source. 2A02:908:4E3:9520:DD40:507C:B7CE:F490 (talk) 21:58, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I think this is relevant

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1710757415388414307#m

A German citizen was murdered. 69.249.102.223 (talk) 22:32, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Tweets are generally considered unreliable for sourcing requirements. XeCyranium (talk) 00:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

party near Re’im

Palestinian terrorists arrived to the nature party complex in the Re’im forest, fired at the participants and threw grenades https://twitter.com/kann_news/status/1710551424436748742 https://www.jta.org/2023/10/07/israel/it-was-utter-chaos-families-and-survivors-describe-the-horrors-of-hamas-invasion https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/ryhehzybp#autoplay https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/2023_q3/Article-f88c2856ee80b81026.htm https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gunmen-homes-captives-abducted-gaza-leave-israelis-shock-2023-10-07/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by שמי (2023) (talk • contribs) 22:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

peoeple dead https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-bodies-being-removed-identified-from-site-of-large-party-near-reim/

"Survivors of Massacre at Israeli Outdoor Rave Describe 'Battlefield'" https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-07/ty-article/.premium/survivors-of-massacre-at-israeli-outdoor-rave-describe-battlefield/0000018b-0a85-dae9-adcb-abbfa4990000

a lot of them are missing. https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hjyzajclt

I added a sentence about bodies being recovered from the party. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 23:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The event appears to have been named Universo Paralello but can't find a solid source for that yet.©Geni (talk) 05:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/07/middleeast/israel-gaza-fighting-hamas-attack-music-festival-intl-hnk/index.html calls it Nova Festival. Borgenland (talk) 05:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

In my understanding, the massacre at the nature party (which was in the forest) has nothing to do with the battle at Camp Reim (Gaza Division headquarters). These are different events that took place.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-07/ty-article/.premium/survivors-of-massacre-at-israeli-outdoor-rave-describe-battlefield/0000018b-0a85-dae9-adcb-abbfa4990000

Geographically, there are Kibbutz Reim, Camp Reim and Forest Reim in this area. These are 3 separate places and it is advisable to be careful of confusion. 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:E813:77F3:5AD8:B10C (talk) 05:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

There was also a third battle in the kibbutz itself (https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b15wi11xz6#autoplay) — Preceding unsigned comment added by שמי (2023) (talk • contribs) 13:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

death toll 300 now

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-death-toll-in-hamas-onslaught-rises-to-at-least-300/ 2001:569:57B2:4D00:C9A0:AE48:F495:2536 (talk) 22:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

It is already over 350+

T.me/manniefabian/39497 77.248.247.89 (talk) 07:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no evidence of "widespread sexual violence"

The female Israeli citizen's body that was displayed was not undressed, she was wearing shorts and a bra. A look through this female Israeli's social media account shows that she has posts of herself in that very same outfit and other similar loose, revealing outfits. There is no proof that the Palestinian fighters undressed her or sexually assaulted her. Revise this segment. 41.47.21.14 (talk) 00:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It'd be helpful if you specified the text you wanted changed and provided a reliable source that supports your proposed change. XeCyranium (talk) 00:20, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

"Widespread sexual violence and massacres of Israeli civilians have been reported." The citations do not mention any reports of "widespread sexual violence." One article mentions the woman discussed above, the other cites statements by American politicians speculating that sexual violence would occur. 2604:3D09:D07D:A830:98D4:DBCA:3D4F:805B (talk) 00:26, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

As stated by another commentator, both articles are void of any, let alone widespread sexual violence."

Proof that the body was dressed: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUg10ttmlCkRrSaKwohEx3DV_9ghmpoqQX7g&usqp=CAU

Proof that the deceased female Israeli wore such outfits regularly: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSi8DSsnfuZoR_0BsRt0sU7ex66XFy9rJCpxA&usqp=CAU 41.47.21.14 (talk) 00:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

she was not a soldier but a german citizen attending a party 2A02:6680:110B:9A00:C4B1:4809:B0E2:1AD2 (talk) 12:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Regardless of the comments above, the cited sources[8][9][10] clearly don't support the claim of "numerous cases of sexual violence against Israeli women", so that claim should be removed unless a different source can be found to support it. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 02:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Des Vallee: I see that you've removed the "not in citation given" tag. Could you please explain which part of the source you believe supports the claim of "numerous cases of wartime sexual violence"? —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 03:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger: Hey, The Telegraph source documents a woman of German citizenship being paraded naked, "The naked body of a woman was paraded in the back of a pickup truck." (...) "Some in the crowd which included youngsters spat on the woman's body." This counts as sexual violence specifically sexually humiliation, her names was Shani Louk, although she was not alive when she was being paraded. Many thanks. Des Vallee (talk) 03:24, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Des Vallee: That sounds like one case of sexual violence, but I still don't see support for the claim of numerous cases. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 03:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger: Perhaps then a better wording is available, or more citations to be necessary. The one does document substantial sexual violence. Des Vallee (talk) 03:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I would argue it's pretty misleading. Most people would assume that sexual violence would refer to sexual assault or rape against a living victim. This would more accurately be described as desecration of a body rather than wartime sexual violence 2604:3D09:D07D:A830:98D4:DBCA:3D4F:805B (talk) 03:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Sexual violence is not limited to being alive, necrophilia as an example is considered a form of sexual violence, despite the affected individual being dead. Likewise mutilation of a body for sexual purposes is also considered a form of sexual violence, and the given source describes her body as mutilated. Des Vallee (talk) 03:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Des Vallee: That may be true, but Sexual violence does not include anything about necrophilia or other post-mortem examples, and generally seems to imply that the victim is alive (or that the killing is part of the violence). This could be a problem with that article, but I agree with the IP user who commented before that the average reader would assume that we are talking about living victims. Renerpho (talk) 15:03, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Likewise, it wasn't "sexual violence" when they dragged that male Israeli commander out in his underwear, they were literally just caught with their pants down. FunkMonk (talk) 10:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Why are we arguing what is and isn't sexual violence? Do a preponderance of reliable sources call the specific instance being referred to sexual violence? Do a preponderance of reliable sources say there has been widespread sexual violence or say there has been sexual violence? That is what matters not editors arguing over what constitutes sexual violence. Nil Einne (talk) 15:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Nil Einne: I agree in principle. I think the question has been whether a source that doesn't use the exact term "sexual violence" or "sexual assault" can still be used. To answer that, we must agree what the term actually means. I would lean no in this specific case, because there doesn't seem to be clear consensus that this is synonymous, and thus would be WP:SYNTH. Renerpho (talk) 17:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The answer here is that it is an emphatic no. No reliable sources mention sexual assault. This seems to be a fog of war situation, and also many people "defaultly" believing that a naked body of a woman is somehow definitive evidence of sexual assault (it is not). 2001:569:57B2:4D00:C9A0:AE48:F495:2536 (talk) 15:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Can someone Mention the various images of violence against Israelis and at Israeli women? The are crimes and brutality. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyGF3hJOLXn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyGRHwMIzVO/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyHSu-ZIAUG/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyI3Ju0rkUL/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyIzHMYLIE2/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/p/CyIZ1muONBH/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== your tellking me this isnt violence? also these articles: https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/missing-israelis-viral-post-shows-pics-of-men-and-women-kidnapped-by-hamas-4461651

https://english.jagran.com/world/israel-gaza-under-attack-hamas-palestine-tel-aviv-military-operation-operation-iron-swords-benjamin-netanyahu-london-celebration-metropolitan-police-10105820 Azz205 (talk) 18:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.foxnews.com/world/videos-hamas-brutality-toward-israelis-eerily-reminiscent-isis-tactics Azz205 (talk) 18:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Violence doesn't equate sexual violence. That's the issue here. There is no evidence of any sexual violence just because women have been taken prisoner. FunkMonk (talk) 19:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Celebrating protests

In Berlin the attacks where celebrated, things like that could be mentioned in the article https://web.archive.org/web/20231007231849/https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/terror-unterstutzer-feierten-angriff-aus-israel-polizei-lost-propalastinensischen-aufmarsch-in-berlin-neukolln-auf-10588360.html FSbiran (talk) 00:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It might be more appropriate in the International reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict article? --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 00:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I see now where including it would be appropriate. I'll add it in. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 02:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This is indeed mentioned in List of international reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict#Demonstrations. Renerpho (talk) 17:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas warns that they will spread the invasion through the West Bank and Jerusalem.

Due to Israel's Future Assault on Hamas (Gaza), they are now threatening to spread more through the West Bank instead of it being Gaza alone.

Source: https://www.scmp.com/news/world/middle-east/article/3237188/israel-vows-mighty-vengeance-hamas-warns-deadly-gaza-assault-will-spread-west-bank-and-jerusalem ItsMeJoeyHigi (talk) 00:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Fix Hyperlink

One of the commanders on the Israeli side, Johnathan Steinberg (who is KIA), has an article. These are the same person, but there is no hyperlink in this specific article to the article about Yonathan. 2601:246:5E01:30A0:B0B8:FFE1:2419:1DF3 (talk) 00:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Jonatan** 2601:246:5E01:30A0:B0B8:FFE1:2419:1DF3 (talk) 00:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@2601:246:5E01:30A0:B0B8:FFE1:2419:1DF3

Hi, the link to the existing article has been added.

Thanks. David O. Johnson (talk) 00:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Slow down

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. We have created an article based on hours old info from limited original sources often known for highly biased information on multiple sides. Why are some editors in such a rush? We are not here to scoop the networks. Wait until we have multiple analyses. There is WP:NODEADLINE. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any constructive suggestions, rather than SOAPBOXing? The article is sourced to credible news outlets like CNN, Al Jazeera, and The Times of Israel. Of course information will change and update. Wikipedia, luckily, is perfectly capable of updating as the information does. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 00:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, no sense in fighting this. It is inevitable. It's a major event. It will undoubtedly evolve. Andre🚐 01:06, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

No need to be agressive. I don't agree either, but I don't need to belittle others to get my point through. Stay kind. 82.147.226.240 (talk) 01:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Doesn't a major event that has repercussions and echoes around the world deserve an article? Dl.thinker (talk) 01:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

In an article about a subject that is leading to a large number of deaths and is likely to incite further deaths, I would think an encyclopedia ought to wait for the dust to settle. We currently live in a world filled with misinformation which has caused so many problems. We are WP:NOTNEWS. An encyclopedia should at least attempt to wait long enough to gain a more full view of facts and analysis. That is, yes there are repercussions and echoes around the world. So, let us be responsible and not contribute to those repercussions. Let us report when we have a fuller story to document. We should never be part of any echo chamber on any side. But as others have said, it's a waste of time to remind editors that this is an encyclopedia. O3000, Ret. (talk) 02:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:CENSOR Borgenland (talk) 02:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I can't remember the last time that policy was correctly cited. Your explanation certainly doesn't indicate this is a correct cite. O3000, Ret. (talk) 02:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

We would be derelict in our duty if we failed to have this article and keep developing it as the war proceeds. Waiting until "the dust has settled" is an empty, unhelpful cliché. Who gets to decide when the dust has finally settled? Some random person on the internet? I have heard countless criticisms of Wikipedia over the years, but if we did not have an article about this war, that would bring on the most devastating criticism by far in the past 22 years, and I would agree with that. Cullen328 (talk) 03:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This article does not violate WP:NOTNEWS, which has four restrictions. There is no original reporting by Wikipedia editors. This is not routine news coverage of announcements, events, sports, or celebrities. This is not Who's Who type of content. This is not celebrity gossip. Those are the only things that NOTNEWS precludes. Cullen328 (talk) 03:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

In this case, factual reporting in RS is mostly repeating what they have been told by an involved source. I can read a newspaper for this. And then read it tomorrow and get a different set of 'facts' and then.... It's not what I use an encyclopedia for. No, we do not wait for one random person. (Did I suggest something so silly?) We form a consensus that RS are using primary sources from all involved with expert analysis tying it together. Wikipedia has no deadline. O3000, Ret. (talk) 03:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I tend to agree but it is always the same with these breaking news things, nothing to be done, the article will develop and eventually settle down. Selfstudier (talk) 09:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This isn't the first major, rapidly moving event that is covered on Wikipedia as it happens. We have done this from the first day, and will doubtlessly continue to do so. The earliest edits at World Trade Center/Plane crash were quite erratic, too, even though they came from some of the founders of the platform. Renerpho (talk) 15:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Gaza-Israel or vice versa?

Do we list it in alphabetical order or do we not? 2006 Israel–Gaza conflict has it the other way round, but then again, that may be the wrong one. Bremps... 01:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if there's a standard here. I believe it's up to editor's preference. KlayCax (talk) 01:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think we should go with alphabetical order unless a different order clearly predominates in RSs. That's what we do in bilateral relations articles (e.g. Germany–Israel relations rather than Israel–Germany relations). —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 02:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to be bold and move the 2006 page. Bremps... 03:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I think this is handled by WP:AND: "It is generally best to list topics in alphabetical order, especially those involving different countries or cultures, as in Canada–United States border. However, when a conventional or more logical ordering exists, it should be used instead, such as at yin and yang. If one concept is more commonly encountered than the other, it may be listed first, as in Electrical resistance and conductance. Alternative titles using reverse ordering (such as Relegation and promotion) should be redirects." LightNightLights (talk • contribs) 13:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

According to ngrams, "Israel-Gaza" is far more common; infinitely so in the case of "Israel-Gaza conflict". BilledMammal (talk) 13:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Third Intifada..?

No one - In israel or in palestine, called it Third Intifada, really no one. אקסינו (talk) 01:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not universal but several American news agencies have referred to it as such. Similarly, we use "Third Intifada" in the 2014 Jerusalem unrest article, along with others.

If there's any terms being commonly used in Israeli or Palestinian media about this - and it's being widely used - I recommend that it's added. KlayCax (talk) 01:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

So by that logic this would be the fourth intifada. Or, perhaps, there is no third intifada despite the wishes of bloodthirsty outsiders to label everything as such. Total crystal ball violation. PrimaPrime (talk) 01:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

WP: Crystal only applies if we're speculating it is. If reliable sources are referring to it in the present tense as such: then it's a different case. The situation is obviously horrific. I'm not implying it isn't. KlayCax (talk) 01:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok, some news called it a third intifada, and others called it Hamas-Israel war, Israel war and some called it a Terror wave, we just need to stick we a netural name and I think the current title does it perfectly.

It could be defientely called an Intifada in a matter of days weeks or maybe months but it's not the name used by anyone other than some populist news agencies thus it's incorrect to call it that. אקסינו (talk) 02:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Mainstream news agencies such as The Guardian have also referred to it as such. It's not limited to tabloids. I think we're past the point of just considering it sensationalism from clickbait low-quality "news"papers. KlayCax (talk) 02:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it should be removed. It's a controversial term and it's too soon to decide it will be called the Third Intifada. Andre🚐 01:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• This is hardly commonly used for this conflict. I haven't seen it once. FunkMonk (talk) 12:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Israeli Commanders and Leaders

Under "Commanders and Leaders", Police Commissioner Kobi Shabti is listed, while Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir is omitted. Ben-Gvir is the official in command of the Israeli police force and Shabti's superior officer. All leaders of the Israeli police, especially the Cabinet member in charge of them (Ben-Gvir), should be listed since the police is engaged in the conflict. Ben-Gvir, as Minister of National Security, is a member of Security Cabinet of Israel.

Timeline needed.

self-explanatory. Great Mercian (talk) 01:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't think a timeline is necessary, or even feasible. Many events happened nearly simultaneously across many locations in a short period of time. It probably would be impossible to reconstruct a sequence beyond the broad outlines already given. If this conflict continues in the coming days, as it almost certainly will, a chronological progression of the conflict will become easier to write (.e.g, day-by-day or week-by-week, etc.). --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 02:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Isn't that what a timeline is? Great Mercian (talk) 02:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

You could try to create a timeline article....divided by hour? It's only day 2. Selfstudier (talk) 09:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_October_2023_Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict kencf0618 (talk) 12:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Map Image Typos

The map shows 'Netivol', this should be 'Netivot'. The location is on the East side, approximately midway up the image.

See Netivot for more info. Elderlystrawberry (talk) 02:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Dates

It is now 8 October. Will the article need to be reformatted to include a timeline? Borgenland (talk) 03:04, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Let's just wait a bit for the media and parties involved to settle on a name

It might be the Gaza War, it might be the Israel-Palestine War 2023, it might get some fancy Hebrew name, heck for all we know Fatah and Hezbollah could get involved and it's suddenly the 5th Arab-Israeli War 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:55B0:11B8:C431:F554 (talk) 03:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This isn't a war this is a slaughter 2601:40:C481:A940:3C92:C11F:3285:D004 (talk) 13:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Sexual violence?

It is mentioned in the lead that there was sexual violence. However, the links provided do not say this. Driving around a body of a naked woman does not imply there was sexual assault per se. 2001:569:57B2:4D00:C9A0:AE48:F495:2536 (talk) 03:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Seems your objection has some point. Lionel Messi Lover (talk) 03:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The woman wasn't naked either, it appears this is how she dressed normally (look her up). Even the Israeli commander who was caught was in his underwear. It seems a lot of them were simply caught unexpectedly, nothing sexual about that. FunkMonk (talk) 10:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

She was not a soldier caught unexpectedly, she was a german citizen murdered in a music festival 2A02:6680:110B:9A00:C4B1:4809:B0E2:1AD2 (talk) 12:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no proof that she is even dead, most likely taken for prisoner swap. FunkMonk (talk) 12:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The bullet holes shown in the back of her head on video aren't proof? 2603:7080:8F00:49F1:41BB:C608:C30A:AA5D (talk) 18:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

To add on to what you said, there is still a sentence in the article saying, “a video of Palestinians parading her unconscious naked body in a car,” which should be changed to reflect the fact she is fully clothed and was being transported as a prisoner, not paraded. 159.242.0.110 (talk) 17:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

She wasn't unconscious, she was dead. It wasn't transporting a prisoner, it was showing off and reveling over her corpse. 2603:7080:8F00:49F1:41BB:C608:C30A:AA5D (talk) 18:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

There are multiple sources that say the opposite; she is most likely alive. The main goal of this seems to be taking prisoners for swapping, and it's entirely consistent with that. FunkMonk (talk) 19:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Occupation

Article should mention that legally Gaza and the West Bank are occupied territory and that this is the opinion of pretty much the entire international community. The way the article talks about "occupation" is that it's just some Arab claim. 2001:569:57B2:4D00:C9A0:AE48:F495:2536 (talk) 03:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

condemn of labeling word "militant" for palestine

I was disspointed for who labeling palestinian as "militant" in this article as lokking wikipedia have siding to pro israeli page. please remove this word and replace to another word to become fair. Insankerdilmahubersuara1993 (talk) 04:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

We are not talking about a regular Palestinian army, are we? Borgenland (talk) 04:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The majority of international RS are using "militant", NYT, WAPO, Reuters. Selfstudier (talk) 10:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

the only acceptable term in this instance is militant. Azz205 (talk) 18:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Removal of casualties in Gaza

Daveout can you explained why you removed mention of the Israeli attack on the hospital in Gaza and the fact that it killed an Indonesian working there?[11]

If Hamas has caused similar casualties they should be mentioned too.VR _talk 04:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Indeed it was an hasty action, I should have looked the context a little closer. That's why I self reverted before you wrote this. I still think the way it's described is too wordy, as if it were trying to imply something. Anyway apologies for the inconvenience. Stay well. –Daveout(talk) 04:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks and you too.VR _talk 04:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The description of the claim (And maybe also with its claim, but that needs to be ascertained) is not accurate/correct

https://www.businessinsider.com/doctors-without-borders-hospitals-ambulances-targets-israel-hamas-gaza-2023-10 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:E813:77F3:5AD8:B10C (talk) 06:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure no Indonesian has been killed yet, the Indonesian Ministry of Foreign Affairs has confirmed that no Indonesian national has been killed

https://x.com/kemlu_ri/status/1710924285324452195?s=46 2404:8000:1024:13EA:2B8A:247D:DD6:1C8A (talk) 10:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Separate section for names

Daveout[12] it is convention on wikipedia to have a separate section for names (its often called "etymology"). I would respectfully keep the names section separate from the background section.VR _talk 04:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

For example, see the "Etymology" section at Second Intifada.VR _talk 04:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

these government nicknames are more like trivias. no one cares about them, although it´s a good idea to keep them in for register sake. no need for a highlighted special section. cheers. keep well my friend. (others may disagree and undo my edits, it's all good just the same) –Daveout(talk) 04:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Southern Lebanon involvement

Just recently, Southern Lebanon initiated their rocket attacks on Israel in support of Gaza. IDF responded by artillery fire, and some UN peacekeepers (UNIFIL) in Lebanon is pulled back to their base. Should it be included in the article? I'm looking into others opinion, as I am unable edit it due to article protection. BlueHelvetical (talk) 04:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Can you provide some sources? I can't find anything to this effect.VR _talk 05:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It's being reported on X (formerly known as Twitter) Efuture2 (talk) 05:03, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

There is reliable sources of UN peacekeepers backing away/increasing their presence there due to rocket attacks there, but the issue is still ongoing and nothing much (information) can be found as of now. I will keep on updating if there is anything new. BlueHelvetical (talk) 05:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I'll get back to ya with reliable sources. BlueHelvetical (talk) 05:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Please specify who exactly since Southern Lebanon is not an independent state. Borgenland (talk) 05:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It's Hezbollah. I will look into some more informations. BlueHelvetical (talk) 05:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Update: UNIFIL confirms rocket attack at southeast Lebanon towards Israeli-occupied territory in the general area of Kafr Chouba and artillery fire from Israel to Lebanon in response. They are in contact with authorities in both sides of the Blue Line, at all levels, to contain the situation and avoid serious escalation. BlueHelvetical (talk) 06:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Here it was reported in the guardian live coverage, add hezbollah to the list of belligerents. https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/08/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-palestinian-attack-october-2023-gaza-conflict-hostages-latest-news#maincontent MysticForce07 (talk) 05:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

i24news

ynetnews

Hindustan Times

BilledMammal (talk) 05:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

A handful of mortar shells doesn't square with Hezbollah. Those guys have a lot of rockets.©Geni (talk) 05:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Gulf News now reports that Hezbollah has claimed responsibility for shells and missiles fired at Israel. BilledMammal (talk) 05:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Unlikely. They don't recognise the Shebaa farms as Israel (in fairness neither does anyone else its just that most of the world thinks they are part of syria rather than Lebanon).©Geni (talk) 05:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Well now Hezbollah has claimed responsilibity for it. "Lebanon’s Hezbollah says it has targeted three occupation outposts with mortar shells in the “occupied Shebaa Farms” in southern Lebanon." https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/08/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-palestinian-attack-october-2023-gaza-conflict-hostages-latest-news#maincontent MysticForce07 (talk) 05:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Change Title to "October 2023 Anti-Israel Massacres"

non extended confirmed users cannot participate in requested moves and this has no chance of consensus anyway
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This is not a conflict, this was a coordinated air, land and sea terrorist invasion with the express objective of killing as many Jewish civilians as possible. Regardless of our POV, we must neutrally represent these massacres committed in the name of ethnoterritorialism, nationalism, and other far-right politics. It is not that we have an obligation to any POV or side, rather that incidental in our pro-Arab nationalist bias, we wikipedia editors are failing our responsibility to humanity by virtue of our bias. PresidentCoriolanus (talk) 05:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC) It sounds too much like a pogrom, and negates the fact that both sides are actively engaging against each other at the same time. Borgenland (talk) 05:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC) No. The topic is broader than the events of the morning of 7 October. I image that eventually enough sources will emerge that we will be able to support some articles on individual massacres but we haven't reach that point yet and that isn't this article.©Geni (talk) 05:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC) There was and continues to be extensive engagement with military forces and military targets. Though there appear to have been massacres in the course, these do not make up the entire event. 2604:3D09:D07D:A830:98D4:DBCA:3D4F:805B (talk) 05:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC) Is this supposed to be a joke discussion? Never knew people in war get killed instead of being hugged and given rainbows. It’s been going on for 16 years in Gaza alone, and you’ll be in for a not so cute surprise if you see what israel is continuously doing to Gaza, unless you only acknowledge crimes if it’s the Arabs doing it The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC) Are you trying to be WP:POINTy or something? What's your goal with a title like that? DarmaniLink (talk) 11:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC) This is no more a massacre than the regular killings and kidnappings we see in this conflict every week, the only difference is that now Israel is on the receiving end. FunkMonk (talk) 12:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hezbollah has apparently joined in

So what to name it now? 2023 Arab Israeli War? 5th Arab Israeli War? 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:55B0:11B8:C431:F554 (talk) 05:26, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn’t go that far, since no nations are actually involved, but rather militias and popular support The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

No other countries have joined in so 3rd Intifada might be more fitting MysticForce07 (talk) 05:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Isn't Intifada specifically for a low intensity conflict in West Bank? 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:55B0:11B8:C431:F554 (talk) 05:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

(or rather occupied territory, which doesn't really cover Gaza anymore since they left after the Second Intifada) 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:55B0:11B8:C431:F554 (talk) 05:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Hezbollah fired some rockets at the Shebaa Farms, which is illegally occupied territory, but has little to do with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict itself. Hardly of any consequence, so not really significant enough for the infobox. FunkMonk (talk) 12:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

kidnapped

German-Israeli citizen kidnapped. She kidnapped with a group of tourists. She was at the party in Reim forest. According to the documentation they published, the terrorists stripped, beat her and spat on her. They transferred her to Gaza.

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/al-aqsa-storm-militants-infiltrate-israel-after-gaza-rockets-10-07-intl-hnk/index.html

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hkt4cnj11p — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:E813:77F3:5AD8:B10C (talk) 06:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It said she was stripped, when all that exists is a video of her in the same kind of clothes she wore regularly. So it seems to be just sensationalist spin. FunkMonk (talk) 12:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what the fuck does that even mean? No need for rudeness in a horrible situation like this.

Hamas murdered a German citizen Its that cut and dry Why with the opposition of mentioning it?

She's all over the news and is a major image for the casualties.

Ignoring this is nonsensical. 2601:40:C481:A940:3C92:C11F:3285:D004 (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

i see two other users have pointed this out and they've been removed. 2601:40:C481:A940:3C92:C11F:3285:D004 (talk) 13:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

There was mention but as since she was a regular civilian, we couldn't simply put out her name due to possibility of WP:MEMORIAL violation Borgenland (talk) 14:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no indication she was killed nor stripped, she was most likely taken alive for prisoner swapping. Only one being rude here is the one adding expletives. FunkMonk (talk) 14:20, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

"whilst overlooking the prelude to the conflict and Israel’s deliberate targeting of civilian targets."

this aside is not derived from the sources presented.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 06:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

My bad bestie, it has been corrected by the girlbosses and it has been reverted The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Map

@Veggies: I have removed Hamas presence in the map from Ashkelon. Ecrusized (talk) 06:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

PNG based off of the modular map of the Israeli conflict.

Maps based on the much more comprehensive and detailed Template:Israeli-Palestinian conflict detailed map are far superior to the map we have now. Module maps allow the citation of sources to reflect an accurate and verifiable state of things on the ground. See your false claim and inaccurate map for proof of why we need that. They are intricately clickable, allowing users to go to the module and see what all points of interest are and go to their respective articles. So, why did you remove it from the article? -- Veggies (talk) 07:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

If you see it fit I think you should go for it. I only reverted it because you specieded hamas and the invasion included multiple factions (I was under an assumption that militants in general were in the city, not specifically hamas), so slay The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:24, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Veggies: I don’t like the module map because it is very bleak. It does not cover roads, heights or urban density. The current map should be as easy to edit as the module. I couldn’t upload it as svg since it’s size is too large but you can download it at the page and export it as png. This should be very east to edit for anyone who has edited vector files in the past. Ecrusized (talk) 07:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ecrusized: Your map is a stitch job—and not a good one. I can see the seams of where the different screenshots of the map you wanted were poorly stitched together. And you call my efforts "low quality". The point of Wikipedia is so users can edit the Wikipedia themselves—not to rely on requesting changes from a small group of users. This is why the module map was developed. Your map is out of date and uncited. -- Veggies (talk) 19:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Veggies: I'm not an expert mapper by any means. I have already requested a map from user Rr016, and I have made the current map in the meantime. A better map should be ready in a few days. As you can see in my ping below, you can edit the file by downloading it. SVG's are the most common file format in Wikipedia's maps and should be available for the largest number of users to edit. Right now, it's your map vs mine but I think if it were put for discussion more users would support the current map. Ecrusized (talk) 19:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Also see, Talk:October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict#Please consider reverting to the previous infobox map image. Ecrusized (talk) 19:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ecrusized: It's not "my" map. Unlike you (evidently) I don't claim to own my contributions to this site. The module was created by many other people. I suppose you haven't noticed that the modular map is an SVG one, and it is only the thumbnail that I've tried to put on the article that is rasterized. That's why I link back to the module in the caption. If I could place a cropped SVG live-snapshot of the module in the infobox, I would. Only in your mind is this a "you vs me" conflict. And stop making new talk page sections every time you need to bring something up. There's already plenty of "Map" threads on here. -- Veggies (talk) 20:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Causality update

According to IDF spokesman the Israeli military has killed more than 400 Palestinian fighters in southern Israel and the Gaza Strip https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-killed-more-than-400-terrorists/ Hu741f4 (talk) 07:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I would question it, notice it refers to them collectively as “terrorists”, “times of Israel” doesn’t seem to be reliable in this case, have you seen a similar count from other media? The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 08:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest getting a reliable sources from a global news network. Local state/independent medias are likely to be a bit inaccurate especially during this ongoing conflict. BlueHelvetical (talk) 09:06, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

ToI is usually OK, the terrorist label is coming from the IDF. Selfstudier (talk) 09:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Why were PFLP and DFLP removed?

Their unit are still listed so why remove them? Genabab (talk) 09:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

If you have the citations for their involvement, then you can add them The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 09:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Edit request: Correct Hebrew transliteration

מבצע חרבות ברזל≠Mivtsa Charvot Barzel מבצע חרבות ברזל=Mivtsa Ch/Kharavot Barzel Sorry formatting is terrible when combining Hebrew and English. Location: Second paragraph of the "Background" Section. Source: Me, a native Hebrew speaker. TomGoLeen (talk) 10:20, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

If you want a better source: The academy of the hebrew language TomGoLeen (talk) 10:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@TomGoLeen: I changed it to "Kharavot", and marked it as needing a citation. The CNN article we are currently citing does not provide a transliteration. Right now, a search for "Mivtsa+charvot" only lists this Wikipedia article (and a mirror site), while "Mivtsa+kharavot" finds the WikiData entry. If you have a source (ideally a specific URL), that would be nice. Renerpho (talk) 19:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023 (3)

Under International Reactions, add a line saying:

Several countries including Russia have called for restraint, without directly supporting either side

Source: https://www.dagens.com/news/russia-calls-for-immediate-ceasefire Sng Pal (talk) 10:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This was already there, but has been moved to its own article. FunkMonk (talk) 12:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Death Toll in Israel is now 400+ per "Times of Israel"

Per the news outlet, the death toll on the israeli side is now over 400. The "Times of Israel" also state that there are currently 2,048 injured on the israeli side.

Link to the article: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-death-toll-passes-400-another-2048-injured/

The article was posted 10 minutes ago as of my writing. Poles Ragge (talk) 11:26, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Requesting an edit to the casualties part of the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poles Ragge (talk • contribs) 11:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Forgot to add:

The "Times of Israel" article is referencing the Israeli Health Ministry. Poles Ragge (talk) 11:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Done. Ecrusized (talk) 11:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Im watching N12 and it says 500+ 87.68.136.59 (talk) 12:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I just read the death Toll has risen to 600+ according to "Times of Israel".

Per Emanuel (Mannie) Fabian ( https://twitter.com/manniefabian ) N12 is saying the death toll in Israel is 500+ and "Channel 13" is reporting 600+ deaths on the israeli side. Poles Ragge (talk) 12:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

[Note]

• Emanuel (Mannie) Fabian is a military correspondend for the news agency "Times of Israel".
• At time of my writing "Times of Israel", "Channel 12" and "Channel 13" are all refering to the Health ministries number of 600+

Poles Ragge (talk) 12:20, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Im currently watching "The Welt" (german news channel) and they're also referencing the official number of 600+, that was made by the health ministry of Israel. Poles Ragge (talk) 12:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

small update per "channel 12 news" and per "times of israel", the israeli death toll has risen to 700+ Poles Ragge (talk) 17:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Egyptian policeman kills Israeli tourists in Alexandria

Something related to the topic source 2A02:908:4E3:9520:DD40:507C:B7CE:F490 (talk) 11:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm considering whether to place it in international reactions instead. Borgenland (talk) 14:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if the events are linked, though. Bremps... 15:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

We can't really state they're linked unless the motives of the shooter are made clear. FunkMonk (talk) 17:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Timing (Holiday)

It's important to note that the attacks began in the early morning hours of Shemini Atzeret. To understand why this is such a crucial detail, read Yom Tov and Melacha. It's the main reason that many Israelis compare the attacks to the Yom Kippur War. Joalbertine (talk) 12:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Joalbertine: The article currently says: The attack took place during the Jewish holiday of Simchat Torah and Shabbat, and a day after the 50th anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur War, which also began with a surprise attack. What do you suggest to be added to this? Renerpho (talk) 19:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Why is IDF casualties on the palastinian side?

someone messed up ManU9827 (talk) 12:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Not a mess up, this is just the number of Palestinian casualties claimed by the IDF The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 13:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

"in Israeli Airstrikes"

@EkoGraf: Regarding this edit, I included "in Israeli airstrikes" because it isn't an attempt at providing a full accounting of Palestinian casualties; it doesn't include those killed in ground fighting. I think the infobox needs to clarify this, but I don't mind how it does that - if you can think of a better way than saying "in Israeli airstrikes" then I encourage you to add it. BilledMammal (talk) 12:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Like I said, adding "in Israeli airstrikes" is not in line with other Wikipedia conflict infoboxes (including previous Gaza wars) where only casualty figures are listed (with attribution to the source and distinguishing between civilian and combatant). Causes of death are not for the infobox. As per the established template of Wikipedia conflict articles, their causes of death are expanded upon in the main body of the article, to be specific, in the casualties section of the article, which is the standard Wikipedia encyclopidic practice. If you want to elaborate in the casualties section regarding this, I can help you with that. EkoGraf (talk) 13:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

My intention with that edit isn't to include the cause of death; it's to make it clear that the Palestinian Ministry of Health (Hamas) is not claiming to make a full accounting of casualties. I think that is something we need to make clear, as currently we are misrepresenting the source.

Can you think of a way to do that other than to say "in Israeli airstrikes"? BilledMammal (talk) 13:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: the Palestinian Ministry of Health (Hamas) is not claiming to make a full accounting of casualties, please provide a source confirming that the Ministry is not making a full accounting. PS I already added (if you didn't notice) Gaza in the brackets of the ministry to indicate for which region they are claiming the casualties. EkoGraf (talk) 17:04, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Reuters; "Gaza health ministry says 370 dead in retaliatory strikes"

Amnestry; "Israel’s retaliatory attack on Gaza has killed at least 232 people and injured nearly 1,700, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health."

France24; "The death toll in the Gaza Strip rose to 313 Sunday, the health ministry in the Palestinian enclave said, as the army carried out air strikes on Hamas targets for the second consecutive day."

Anadola Ajansi; "More than 250 Palestinians, meanwhile, were killed and over 1,700 injured in Israeli airstrikes in Gaza, according to the Health Ministry."

Forbes; "Roughly 370 Palestinians have been killed and 2,200 have been injured in the Gaza Strip, the Palestinian Ministry of Health said Sunday."

Among many others. BilledMammal (talk) 17:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: Again, did you not notice I already added "Gaza" in brackets beside the Ministry to indicate the region they say they are documenting as an attempt at compromise? EkoGraf (talk) 17:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

That doesn't make it clear that they are only reporting casualties from within the strip, as there are other ways to interpret that disambiguation. BilledMammal (talk) 17:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: Hope this satifies you [13]. EkoGraf (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Lithuanian killed

Lithuanian killed in Israel.

Sources: https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/2095071/israeli-lithuanian-policemen-killed-in-hamas-attacks-media

https://www.lrytas.lt/lietuvosdiena/aktualijos/2023/10/08/news/izraelyje-zuvo-lietuvis-28649797 Ginas9999 (talk) 12:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

A lot of Israelis have dual citizenship. Listing every single one of them as a foreign citizen is misleading. FunkMonk (talk) 12:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Any killed individual should be counted for exactly one nationality, and in case of Israelies the nationality should be Israel. If the other nationality is relevant in some other part of the article, list it in the prose there. Animal lover |666| 14:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Archive time

Talk page is over twice the recommended maximum (170kB out of 75), I'll be archiving old stuff that's closed/already added/no chance to be added, before stuff crashes. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 12:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Archiving time has been reduced, hopefully it will clear up by tomorrow. Selfstudier (talk) 12:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay, great. Guess my preemptive creation of Archive 2 was unneeded, thanks a lot. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 12:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Injured and missing Brazilians

What are the criteria for adding people from other countries affected by the conflict to the 3rd box in the infobox?Like Nepalese and Thai. Because it was reported that 2 Brazilians were in the Unniverso Paralelo party who are missing (dead or kidnapped) and one injured. Source: https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/mundo/2023/10/ataques-em-israel-deixam-um-brasileiro-ferido-e-dois-desaparecidos.shtml OLuizgs (talk) 13:25, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Good question. Theres also the fresh reports from antony blinken that several american citizens are "dead, missing". Also, the indonesian medic that was killed by Israeli forces is also gone from the infobox. Poles Ragge (talk) 13:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Could you send any current sources on the disappearance, injury or death of Americans in the conflict? I couldn't

t find. OLuizgs (talk) 13:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

So, firstly the "Times of Israel" live ticker Article [ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/blinken-says-there-are-reports-of-several-americans-killed-missing-in-israel/ ] referenced Antony blinken. Better to say, a tweet from Kaitlan Collins [ https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1711006008938545162?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711006008938545162%7Ctwgr%5E8fe039b4122680206efde0c5bf80fbfe44529a41%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2F%3Fpost_type%3Dliveblog_entryp%3D3115970 ] where she said that Antony blinken told CNN that several american citizens are dead and/or missing.

The German goverment announced that atleast 2 german citizens are missing/kidnapped by Hamas. The news channel "Die Welt" is reporting on that.

I could only find stuff about one of the two dissapeared german citizens, Charlie Louk. [https://www.welt.de/videos/video247883122/Angriff-der-Hamas-auf-Israel-Offenbar-auch-Deutsche-unter-den-Opfern.html ].

Her mother posted a video on social media, saying she recognized her daughter in a hamas video. According to her and "Die Welt", Charlie is that girl in that video where Hamas fighters film a lifeless body of a woman on a pickuptruck, surrounded by hamas soldiers that are chanting (Video is graphic).

According to the Swiss goverment news channel "SRF", there were no reports of swiss citizens missing, kidnapped or killed at the moment of writing (16:00 UTC+1). The swiss live-ticker is here: https://www.srf.ch/news/international/grossangriff-auf-israel-mindestens-500-tote-in-israel-hisbollah-angriffe-im-norden.

Im swiss, if anyone needs translation of swiss or german news, i am here.

Also, SRF cited the official swiss Departement für auswärtige Angelegenheiten (EDA) aka the swiss Ministry of foreign affairs.

At the moment of writing, thats all i know. Poles Ragge (talk) 14:04, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

New Palestinian death tool of 370 killed and 2,200 injured OR 400+ killed hamas members (claim by IDF)

According to the military corresponded from "Times of Israel", Emanuel (Mannie) Fabian, the palestinian health ministry claims that there are 370 killed and 2'200 injured on the Plestinian side.

[SOURCE: https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1711011674277163456]

The "Times of Israel" also say's the IDF claims to have killed 400+ Hamas terrorists.

[SOURCE: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-october-8-2023/]

Both claims are similare numbers BUT the Plestinian health ministry didn't distinguish between civilians or hamas terrorists/fighters.

The IDF only said "Hamas Terrorists". Poles Ragge (talk) 13:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The IDF is calling every Palestinian killed “terrorist”, I wouldn’t take their word for it The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 14:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I know, that's why i put "Hamas Terrorists" in brackets. The only real sources we have of dead and wounded are either from the Israeli IDF or from the Hamas and palestinian health ministry. Both have interest to make their side look good and the other look bad. Poles Ragge (talk) 14:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The IDF does take significant steps to reduce killing or injuring civilians, but when the terrorists use them as shields hurting them is sometimes inevitable. They also recognize the fact that civilians are not terrorists, but some times it takes time for them to be sure how many are each. Animal lover |666| 14:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah you're also right. But we currently have some fog of war everywhere. Only after this crisis we will have full visibility who was a terrorist and who not.

And yes, Hamas is using civilians as human shields, no doubts to that. Poles Ragge (talk) 15:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

They're different numbers. Israel is saying they have killed 400+ fighters inside Israel, while the Palestinian Ministry of Health (Gaza) has said that 370+ have been killed in airstrikes on Gaza. We need to clarify this to prevent further confusion; see the discussion at #"in Israeli Airstrikes". BilledMammal (talk) 15:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

death number of palestinian citizens ?

how many Palestine citizen have been killed please confirm it Syed Zain Ul Abideen Bukhari (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

According to the Palestinian health ministry, 370+ people were killed in Palestine. Around 50%, aka around 135~ deaths, were civilians.

More up-to-date sources i couldn't find yet. Well, at the time of writing.

The only other source is by the IDF and they only talk about 400+ killed "Hamas Terrorists". We don't know if all 400+ were terrorists or also civilians that were counted togheter. So the Palestinian Health Ministry is the only "good enough" source at the moment.

At the time of writing of course... Poles Ragge (talk) 14:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

West Bank

@EkoGraf: I don’t think the clashes in West Bank are related with the ongoing conflict/war in Gaza. Ecrusized (talk) 14:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

At the moment, RS media outlets are reporting it hand-in-hand with the events in and around Gaza. If sources explicetly state its not linked I have no objection to removing it. EkoGraf (talk) 14:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Not sure about this, 7 deaths in a short time is not usual but the connection is not obvious and the WB is otherwise quiet. Selfstudier (talk) 14:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Actions in the West bank should count into this crisis. Its just primarily in and around Gaza. The WB and norther israel-lebanon border could also be counted at being connected with the Gaza-crisis. Poles Ragge (talk) 15:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Edit request - Restore this in infobox

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=October_2023_Gaza%E2%88%92Israel_conflict&diff=1179192038 [14]

@Shaan Sengupta, Please add this which is removed from infobox. 103.241.226.129 (talk) 14:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

If someone removed it, it might be disputed. I shall leave it for others to do it. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 15:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It hasn't been removed, it has been moved to October_2023_Gaza−Israel_conflict#Notes. Renerpho (talk) 16:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hasn't been removed, its still in the infobox. Just moved to a note beside the overall number of dead within Israel, which counts the foreign citizens. Listing them separately would be double-counting. EkoGraf (talk) 16:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

More casualties

Please add to the foreign victims a Chilean who was murdered by Hamas, the name has already been published and the Israeli ambassador in Chile confirmed it publicly, I leave you the link

https://www.24horas.cl/internacional/noticias/hija-de-chilena-murio-en-israel-tras-ataque-de-hamas-habria-recibido-8-disparos Darknessofhumanity (talk) 14:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 14:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

can you add this section in infobox

| casualties3 = 17 Nepalis kidnapped by Hamas, 7 Nepalis injured
2 Thais killed, 11 kidnapped by Hamas, 8 injured,
2 Ukrainians killed.
2 Argentinians killed. 103.241.226.129 (talk) 15:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

References

more info

From the beginning of the event (documentation that became less unusual) "Extraordinary documentation: terrorists have infiltrated the surrounding settlements and are shooting" https://www.mako.co.il/pzm-soldiers/Article-af01eb8bf780b81026.htm

The fighting is still going on in some areas, 8.10.2023 (https://news.walla.co.il/item/3614541 , https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/ryczojxwa): "Terrorist squad in Kibbutz Bari, exchange of fire on the spot 2023" "The difficult battle in the Gaza village continues: "The biggest nightmare of the residents of the Otaf has come true"

results:

"The father and daughter were kidnapped and managed to escape, the traces of the mother disappeared" https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/6361323ddea5a810/Article-560435ee64e0b81027.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802

"Reports that several Americans killed - Blinken"

'"The terrorist murdered the grandmother, took a picture and uploaded it to her Facebook. That's how we found out" | Chilling evidence from the terrorist attack' https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/rykxjfxb6#autoplay

'Biden's Secretary of State announced that in the next few days the US will announce military aid to Israel. Compared to 1973, he said: "Then there was a war of army against army. This time it is an attack by a terrorist organization. Women, children and a Holocaust survivor in a wheelchair were kidnapped to Gaza"'

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/h1jq4eg11p#autoplay "After the exchange of fire with Hezbollah: Gallant instructed to prepare for the evacuation of settlements in the north"

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/ryczojxwa "This morning the dimensions of the disaster are also revealed in Kibbutz Nahal Oz. According to the residents, at least 20 terrorists infiltrated the kibbutz territory yesterday, more than five of them including children were murdered. The terrorists also took hostages from the kibbutz with them. Residents are being evacuated to Mishmar Ha'Negev"

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/s1nlru0x6 https://www.ynet.co.il/blogs/war2dayevening "A day after the start of the attack on the Gaza Strip, when the security forces arrived in the settlements, the depth of the horror that took place there was revealed. In Kibbutz Nir Oz, as in Bari, many of the buildings caught fire. The terrorists burned houses to make the residents come out, to shoot them or kidnap them."

"In Ofakim they relive the day of the hard fighting: "I fortified myself with the gun, protecting the family. That's what there is"" https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-10-08/ty-article-magazine/.premium/0000018b-0f0f-dae9-adcb-afbf25f20000 — Preceding unsigned comment added by שמי (2023) (talk • contribs) 15:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Nature of Palestinian attacks

There is basically nothing in this article as to the nature of the Palestinian attacks. Thay should be characterized properly as surprise attacks against Israeli civilians. It might be going to far to describe them as "cowardly". However, it should certainly be clear that they were unprovoked surprise attacks aimed not at the IDF, or at least not only at the IDF, but primarily at civilians. TiltonHilton (talk) 15:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

They have specifically taken over military bases and captured soldiers, so that is not a correct assessment. And "unprovoked" is the overstatement of the ages. FunkMonk (talk) 19:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The Hamas militants gunned down civilians intentionally. These attacked were not against the IDF - they were trying to kill Israelis whether they were soldiers or not. TiltonHilton (talk) 19:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Update to foreign citizens killed.

The german news channel "Die welt" announced that a german tourist from berlin (not Shani Nicole Louk) is now reported to be killed after being kidnapped by Hamas.

I'm trying to look to somehow get a link for that news thats not gonna be the link to the youtube-livestream of the official "Die Welt" channel.

Poles Ragge (talk) 15:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.welt.de/tv-programm-live-stream/

Here it is Poles Ragge (talk) 15:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

More info: A mother talked with one of the reporters and said her daughter got killed after bing kidnapped.

Please take with a grain of salt (safety-first) Poles Ragge (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

PIJ

Need help fixing flag for Ziad Nakhalah in infobox. Borgenland (talk) 15:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Borgenland: Gaza–Israel clashes (November 2019) uses the same flag for al-Nakhalah, while May 2023 Gaza–Israel clashes uses no flag at all for him (but uses the same flag earlier in the infobox). What do you suggest as a fix? Renerpho (talk) 16:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It appears someone made a fix while I was away. Not sure who did. Borgenland (talk) 16:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Belligerents

Hi. Popular Resistance Committees lauch attacks with drones on Israel, someone can add this organisation to the belligerents ? Thanks. Idem for al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades who publish videos.

(source PRC : https://qaweim.com/) (source al-Aqsa : https://nedal.net/) AnthonyRd71 (talk) 15:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023

You need the mention 50%+ civilians Israeli casualties if doing the same with Hamas. Vkutikov1 (talk) 15:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

No source provided that more than half of Israeli casualties are civilians, while source cited for Palestinian casualties. EkoGraf (talk) 16:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Source? Not done.Selfstudier (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Comments removed from this talk page

Constructive comments from new accounts have been removed from this talk page. Does the 30 day, 500 edit minimum apply to the talk page as well as the article? Jim 2 Michael (talk) 16:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Applies to the RM, WP:ARBECR. Any others may be restored if you believe they are constructive. Selfstudier (talk) 16:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I have removed a few instances of identical comments that were posted twice (apparently accidental), from this page and the List of international reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict talk page, especially duplicate edit requests. The 30/500 rule played no role in that. Renerpho (talk) 16:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The 30/500 rule doesn't apply to ordinary discussions (it does to move requests). I've generally been trying to archive discussions that have naturally resolved so as to keep the page readable, but I can stop doing that if you'd like. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Red-tailed hawk: I think this article needs more archiving, not less! Renerpho (talk) 16:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023 (2)

Finnish state-owned media Yle tells that a dual-citizen of Finland and Israel has been injured in the clashes. Source: EtelaPuolanka (talk) 16:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Compare Talk:October_2023_Gaza−Israel_conflict#Lithuanian_killed for another case of a person with dual citizenship. If particularly notable, this should be mentioned in the prose in the relevant section of the article, but not in the infobox. Renerpho (talk) 16:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done If there is a reason to include the Finn (unlike the Lithuanian), please ask again and say so. Renerpho (talk) 16:59, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Trim discussion topics

Calling for an urgent closure and archiving of outdated discussions (especially casualty figures) and international reactions (moved to another article). It is becoming quite difficult to scroll through this talk page. Borgenland (talk) 16:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The archive time was reduced to 1 day, it should clear up tomorrow hopefully. Selfstudier (talk) 17:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Is Latin America in the Western World?

I'm looking at this edit summary. My understanding is that the Latin American world's being part of the West is geographically true, but not necessarily politically true; there's a bit of distinction (even if one is a Huntingtonian on this sort of thing). Should we refer to "Latin America" separately in this context? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Global South so I'd say yes. Selfstudier (talk) 17:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it also make more sense to mention blocs instead (EU, NATO etc)? Mellk (talk) 17:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Turkey's reaction seems to be distinct from that of its NATO partners. Renerpho (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Huntington makes a distinction between "the West" and "distinct civilizations intimately related to the West", with Latin America being a part of the latter; but says that in general researchers consider that the West has three main components (European, North American and Latin American). Compare Western world#Latin America. I suggest we circumvent the issue, by either following Mellk's suggestion, or to simply use the three components mentioned by Huntington, and say "most countries, including European, North American and Latin American nations and India". Renerpho (talk) 17:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023 (4)

do supported by united states on israels side 47.204.53.161 (talk) 17:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Unclear and no sources. Not done.Selfstudier (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Declaration of War?

There are multiple reports that Israel has issued a formal declaration of war. If this is true in the sense defined under international law, it would be a fairly rare occurrence in the post 1945 era and should probably be noted. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

According to WAPO< "Israel’s declaration of war, a mostly symbolic formality, would allow the government to enact a wider mobilization of military reserves and compel the government to identify specific wartime objectives, raising the specter of a ground invasion of Gaza." Idk if it is worth mentioning specifically. Selfstudier (talk) 17:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It is the first time since 1973. I think that is worth mentioning. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 18:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

A symbolic formality with very few modern examples. I'd say it merits a mention, assuming we are talking about the legal formality that in theory sovereign countries are supposed to issue before commencing hostilities. Ad Orientem (talk) 18:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The Times of India: "Israel officially declares war for 1st time since 1973 as death toll mounts to 600." The Jerusalem Post: "Article 40 allows the government to order “significant military action that may lead, with a level of probability close to certain, to war."

There are several sentences in the article about "being at war" etc., why would it be a problem to include a sentence that officially confirms it? RiniX (talk) 18:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 18:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas casualties per IDF

I would like to clarify that I was forced by another editor to remove [15] a source [16] explicetly stating that the IDF's claim of Hamas casualties was for both militant deaths in and outside of Gaza. The editor in question insists on saying the figure is for deaths inside Israel only, calling upon a BBC report which said 400 were killed "during the fighting in Israel" [17], which is ambiguous to me. In any case, I leave it to other Wikipedia editors to decide whether IDF was referring to all Hamas casualties or not and which source should be used. I myself do not intend to continue being part of this discussion any longer due to bad faith behavior experienced and will leave it to the rest of the editor community to decide which information is correct. EkoGraf (talk) 18:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

For reference, one more source [18] saying IDF refered to Hamas casualties both in and outside of Gaza. EkoGraf (talk) 18:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Idk that the IDF is reliable for Hamas casualties any more than Hamas would be for Israeli. They are probably both unreliable for their own casualties for that matter. The casualties are being constantly updated so it's probably not that critical. Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Add US to infobox

It is appropriate to add this information. Biden ordered military aid and more is coming. Blinken too. Dl.thinker (talk) 18:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Aid as in soldiers on the ground or Ukraine-style aid? That's an important distinction. Bremps... 18:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

If US becomes a participant, then yes. Atm, no. Selfstudier (talk) 18:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The use of "Supported by:" in the infobox military conflict is deprecated. Parham wiki (talk) 18:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh, is it? I just added it but anyone's free to revert. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 18:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I self-reverted, as the Template:Infobox military conflict page confirmed that it is deprecated. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 19:04, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• The US just sent a carrier strike group to Israel:[19] FunkMonk (talk) 19:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• I think it would be better to add US not as a combatant but under "Supported by:" underneath Israel.VR _talk 19:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Vice regent The use of "Supported by:" in the infobox military conflict is deprecated. Parham wiki (talk) 19:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Grammar check

There's a lot that needs review. However, here is an incomplete sentence at the bottom "considering that Netanyahu's coalition partners, who opposed a two-state solution for the conflict and would prefer to annex the entirety of the West Bank, even at the expense of turning Israel into an apartheid state." Considering what?37.252.80.255 (talk) 18:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The whole sentence makes sense. Selfstudier (talk) 18:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: Did it? I think they are right that "considering" was not referring to anything. Renerpho (talk) 19:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Removed ", who". Renerpho (talk) 18:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Missing Israelis

@EkoGraf: The current number of missing of 750+ in infobox is unreliable. It originates from a tweet by Jerusalem Post[20] being quoted by other news reports. I think it should be removed. Ecrusized (talk) 18:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ecrusized: If you think its unreliable then remove it by all means. Wasn't sure myself since it has not been widely reported on. EkoGraf (talk) 18:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023 (5)

The number of kills is unconfirmed so very biased at this point from both sides.

The countries that ally Israel or Palestine are not represented. 143.177.11.229 (talk) 18:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done The reported casualties are sourced to reputable news outlets. If one side or the other is being untruthful about the casualty counts, there is nothing we can do about it. We cannot do our own independent investigation. As for the allied countries, it is now considered deprecated to add "supported by" in the infobox. Only direct participants should be listed. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 19:06, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox casualties

@EkoGraf: I have merged the IDF, police and Shin Bet casualties with the note listing foreign nationals. Additionally I have also removed the number of displaced and the Israeli estimate of killed militans. The section seemed too large for the infobox and I think those should be listed inside the article like the list which shows the casualties of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Furthermore I consider adding (86% civilians) next to 700 killed in Israeli casualties, would you support this? Ecrusized (talk) 19:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Counting the number of Israeli civilians from the total would essentially be WP:SYNTHESIS, if you plan to subtract the number of Israeli combatants from the total. It's quite possible there are additional combatants who have not yet been identified in the total of 700+. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 19:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ecrusized: I have no problem with the merging of the Israeli security forces dead to the note listing the foreigners. I also have no problem with the removal of the number of discplaced or Israeli claim of militant dead (due to its potential unreliability). However, I agree with @Jprg1966: that 86 percent shouldn't be added unless sourced, because it is more than likely there are still a number of Israeli combatants among the 700 dead who have not yet been identified. It will become clear in a few days. EkoGraf (talk) 19:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Map 2

@Veggies: The current map is in .png format since its too large to be uploaded as an .svg. However, you can download it as .svg at its page in common through MediaFire and export it as .png. The .svg format is very easy to edit and can be done using Inkscape, a free software. It can also be done using Adobe Illustrator, a paid but slightly more advance program. Personally I use Inkscape. You can also request changes at the files talk page. Ecrusized (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

Under "Terminology," the article refers to the Palestinian offensive as "Operation Al-Aqsa Deluge" and the Israeli counterattack as "Operation Swords of Iron." The rest of the article instead uses "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood" and "Operation Iron Swords." The "Terminology" section should be changed to fix this consistency error. AmericanBaath (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Google searches reveal "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood" and "Operation Iron Swords" are the more common variants. I'll change accordingly. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 20:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Please consider reverting to the previous infobox map image

Just wanted to express that I dislike the current map (Israel-war-Oct-8-2023.png) for a number of reasons. Firstly, it puts the Gaza Strip and West Bank in a dotted line as opposed to a solid line, implying that it's a disputed territory and not an internationally recognized border, which is a problem. But I also dislike that there's low contrast between the colors in the towns where fighting is ongoing and there is no highlighted outline of the region where fighting is ongoing unlike the previous map, which makes it visually more difficult to understand the scale of the conflict.

• 
  Previously used image, File:October 2023 Gaza−Israel War.png
• 
  Currently used image, File:Israel-war-Oct-8-2023.png

I don't think either of these are perfect, but I do think that the previous one is easier to interpret and more informative. It is possible that the older one contains outdated information and therefore would not be appropriate to use right now, but I would appreciate if the map displayed visually had more in common with the older one, or if the newer one at least was modified to account for some of the issues I mentioned.

I did not attempt to boldly do this myself because I don't even want to think of getting into an edit war on a topic this contentious, even though all I'm proposing is a stylistic change and not really a content change. I hope others will agree.

Thanks,

 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Seems the current revision is now the previously used map again, but I'll leave this thread up since things can change rapidly on an article like this.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

"Most" countries called for de-escalation

I added in the lead that "Most countries called for de-escalation." I think it is pretty obvious that's the case just looking through International reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict. Is there any objection if I restore that wording?VR _talk 20:03, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Deif message

@Vice regent: Deif's statement, as head of Hamas, holds more importance in the lede than Abbas' statement, head of the PA. Your "summarization" removed the relevant former and kept the irrelevant latter. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:06, 8 October 2023 (UTC)