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February 16

A Latin challenge

I'm tweaking the article Attacotti in an attempt to bring it up to WP standards, but am worried that I might be doing more harm than good. What it needs is someone less philologically challenged than myself, in regards to "controversial" Latin transcriptions, etc. Note however, that this might not be a simple task, and would require reviewing the sources (cited) and possibly recombobulating my efforts. Of particular need is the section Attacotti #Saint Jerome: incidental references. ~ Any attention would be appreciated, even just a suggestion on the talk page; thanks, ~Eric F 74.60.29.141 (talk) 02:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

For an article, I would say that we can't really do much here; ideally, of course, we shouldn't be translating primary sources, or really even using primary sources as references at all. Is there any secondary literature that discusses the Jerome passage (for example)? That discusses why it might be controversial and maybe offers different translations? I agree that the Jerome passage seems strange, but on the other hand, maybe it's just a literary device to make the Attacotti seem even more foreign. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

(Sorry, now that I look more closely, I see you're not doing any "original research" here...) Adam Bishop (talk) 11:25, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention on this matter; the discussion continues on the article's talk page.  ~Eric F 74.60.29.141 (talk) 09:24, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

February 17

"Go to hell!.."

What are some examples of euphemisms for the phrase "Go to hell"? I know a few: for example, in Britain, a common euphemism for "Go to hell" would probably be "Go fly a kite", while on our side of the pond, "Go take a hike" or "Go pound sand" would be the expression of choice. (Also, "Go to Halifax" was formerly used at least in the Southern United States, while "Go get lost" is AFAIK widely used in all English-speaking countries.) Whereas in Russia, the expression "Poshel k chertu" ("Go to hell") is itself considered a euphemism for some even harsher insults, along with "Poshel v boloto" (literally, "Go lose yourself in a swamp"). My question is, what equivalent euphemisms are there in other European countries? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 06:22, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

While I was learning Latin in the '70s, we were taught "Abi in malam rem". Literally "Go to a bad place". Rojomoke (talk) 06:44, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Most literal translation is "Go away into a bad thing". AnonMoos (talk) 15:32, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I like the funny ones, like "Go take a long walk on a short dock". StuRat (talk) 07:25, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

"Go and play on the motorway" was one we used to use (as well as Stu's answer above, replacing 'dock' with 'pier'). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:09, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

The standard US expression also uses "pier". Duoduoduo (talk) 14:47, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

And "Go and play marbles on the M5" was used where I used to live (1 mile from Junction 2). --TammyMoet (talk) 13:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

May you live in interesting times, Tammy. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:42, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

cf. Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel Interesting Times --Senra (talk) 14:12, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I heard "Go play on the railway" as a child though more often I was told that I "was as much use as a chocolate [fireplace|kettle|teapot]" --Senra (talk) 14:12, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

There's always "Make like a tree and leave"... AnonMoos (talk) 15:29, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone say "Go fly a kite" in the UK. The idioms.thefreedictionary.com says; "mainly American informal". There are many variations on the "go and play in the traffic" theme, like those attested above. "Get out of it", "get lost" (or "go and get lost"), "clear off", and the Biblical "Go forth and multiply" are rather more forthright. On a scale of rudeness it descends through "naff off", "bugger off" to "f**k off". Finally, a phrase that I believe started in the London meat markets, but is also attributed to dockers, miners and sailors; "sling your hook!".[1] [2] Alansplodge (talk) 17:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I like "Make like the shepherd and get the flock out of here". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:02, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I have always been puzzled by the expression "Make like" itself. I learned English as an entirely foreign language. I was taught "make" meant something like "manufacture, cause into existence". This usage seems more like "do" or "act". Is this common usage or restricted to idioms only? (Of course, in Finnish, tehdä is used for both "make" and "do", but I learned enough of the semantics to know the distinction in English.) JIP | Talk 19:49, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

"Make like" is a bit Americanesque in my opinion. It means "to imitate". Alansplodge (talk) 20:24, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I think "make like..." is short for "make yourself like..." = "Cause yourself to be like". So that fits with your definition "to manufacture or cause". However, "make" has a wide variety of uses that don't necessarily fit any one definition: "make love", "make out", "make up", "on the make", "we're gonna make it", "make do", etc. Duoduoduo (talk) 22:50, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Make yourself scarce.165.212.189.187 (talk) 18:10, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

"Go fly a kite" is nothing I've heard in the UK, and would not expect to hear because the pattern "Go <verb>" is not generally idiomatic in the UK, "go and <verb>" being preferred. So "Go and fly a kite" is something that I could imagine British people saying, but it is not in my experience a common expression. The only non-obscene expression that comes to mind it "get lost". --ColinFine (talk) 22:12, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

When I was in grade school in the 1960s I heard "buzz off" and, from one transfer student only, "flake off". Duoduoduo (talk) 22:53, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

A now somewhat dated Australian expression was the colourful "Go to buggery", perhaps more often seen now as "Bugger off". HiLo48 (talk) 01:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

My microwave oven has a button with an insult on it, at least in British English: It says "Clear Off". StuRat (talk) 01:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I can't help but feel that idioms are being introduced here from at least two distinct forms of use with regard to both semantics and pragmatics. The OP's first example ("go to hell") tends to be more of an expletive, used in any number of contexts where animosity or anger towards the recipient (or feigning same for wry effect) is intended. Many of the other examples have an at least slightly more concrete meaning and narrower usage - they imply not only the general sense of rancor but also a specific desire for the other part to actually go away, to mind their own business, or otherwise disengage. I may be splitting the hair a bit finer than others do in this case, but I feel that the meaning (or at the very least the relative contexts) for the OP's phrase is genuinely a little different from that of most of the others supplied here thus far. Also, if you disagree with me, you can fuck off.  ;) Snow (talk) 04:12, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone! This is great! Thanks to all of you, I've learned a huge number of idioms in just 24 hours! (And, BTW, thanks for the input about the kite-flying idiom -- I guess the old man was wrong about that one, just like with that scene that had an American Robin making a nest in London.) But what kinds of idioms for "Go to hell" or "Get lost" do they use in non-English-speaking countries (France, Germany, etc.)? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 04:35, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

And for the record, I did mean "go to hell" as in "get lost" -- so all of your responses are right on. 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:51, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

But I think that Snow does have a good point here. E.g., "get lost" does have an implication of wanting you to physically leave, whereas there is no such implication in "go to hell". And some of the other ones are ambiguous to me as to whether they carry both implications or just the "go to hell" implication. Duoduoduo (talk) 14:07, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

In Italian you can say va in Egitto (go to Egypt) or va a quel paese (go to that country). --Trovatore (talk) 05:52, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

A decorous Victorian way of saying "go away" was "I wish you were at Jericho"... AnonMoos (talk) 08:10, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

"Go soak your head" and "Go jump in a lake" maybe? – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 23:50, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Make like a tree, and leave (leaf). Make like a drum, and beat it. (Go) kick rocks.165.212.189.187 (talk) 16:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

"Go peddle your papers," "Go peddle your crazy/nonsense somewhere else." --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 19:05, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The Hebrew term is usually translated (and, to be fair, intended by Israelis) as "Go to Hell" but literally it's "Go to Azazel", which has an interestingly complex meaning. --Dweller (talk) 11:28, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Suddenly for the first time I understand the French va te faire voir (chez les autres), 'go make yourself seen (among the others)'. —Tamfang (talk) 06:34, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

"Ask the devil's mother!.."

A question indirectly related to the above: In Russian, while cursing, it's very common for people to invoke an enigmatic Biblical character known as the Devil's Mother (what, no article?); this is especially commonly seen in the curse "Poshel k chertovoy materi" (literally, "Go to the devil's mother), but also in numerous other expressions as well. My question is, is there any similar expression in use in any other country (especially in an Orthodox one)? And if not, then what unique religious/theological/historical/folkloric/etc. factor(s) might have led at least some Russians to the belief that Satan actually had a mother? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 06:37, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

For his grandmother, see The Devil and his Grandmother. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 06:58, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I took a look at that article, and from the plot summary there reported, the story seems uncommonly pointless. Was there some deeper meaning to it? Or were the original Grimm stories really just these sorts of meaningless nightmares? --Trovatore (talk) 05:48, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Try another one: The Devil With the Three Golden Hairs. The devil's grandmother has again a little role and assists the heroes of the story against the devil. Isn't she a nice person (or better pre-Christian deity)? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 12:28, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Just because the expression exists doesn't mean anyone believes the character exists. Look at how many American half-human/half-dog hybrids and incestuous children/parent couples are believed to exist compared to the frequency of those "curse words". Rmhermen (talk) 17:47, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Not exactly a "reliable source" (Yahoo answers)^[3] ... but: "The Mormons say the devil and Jesus had the same mother because they were brothers and god was their father."   ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 19:01, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

If we're getting into theology (rather than folklore), there's nothing whatever in the Bible, but in Zurvanism (a long-defunct ancient offshoot or variant of Zorastrianism), the evil god has a parent (not a mother)... AnonMoos (talk) 19:12, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Same for many branches of Gnosticism, many of which held the physical world to be the result of the will of a demiurge, who was, for all intents and purposes relevant to the physical world, omnipotent but was nonetheless distinct from the true monadic source of all existence and knowledge. Sometimes this demiurge was held to be innately evil, trying to obscure the truth of the deeper reality from those trapped within his creation, other beliefs held him to be basically benevolent (or ambivalent) and as oblivious as any human to the fact that his cosmos was not the sum total of creation and "he" not it's supreme architect. Still others (and these are most relevant to the current discussion) held him to the offspring of an Aeon, one of a number of aspects of the Pleroma, which represented both the totality of the divine source and the non-physical realm which the Aeons dwelt within. The Aeon Sophia (the female aspect) was the most common representation of the direct progenitor of the demiurge within Gnostic beliefs and undoubtedly there was a lot of theological influence between Christian Gnosticism and what would grow into Orthodox Christianity. But then, these themes are shared in common amongst a number of ancient traditions native to the the middle east and central Eurasia. Snow (talk) 04:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• The expression may simply come from the pagan period, see Chernobog. μηδείς (talk) 20:17, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone! So thus far, I see several different hypotheses: one, that this was originally a pagan Russian belief that survived Christianization (Medeis); another, that this came from Iranian Zoroastrianism via Armenia and the Caucuses region (AnonMoos); and a third one, that this belief was not unique to Russia, but used to exist among Germanic peoples as well (Pp.paul.4). All of these sound plausible, and in fact there's some indirect evidence supporting Pp.paul -- in Beowulf, the evil monster Grendel is described as having a mother bent on revenge, and there's mention of Cain's bloodline (both of which might, or might not, be related to a possible belief in "the devil's mother" among ancient Danes). 24.23.196.85 (talk) 04:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

To more directly address your question than I did in my above response, I think it's fair to say that there are any number of plausible religious (or otherwise animistic) historical explanations, but I think Rmhermen's answer is probably the most on target here; the phrase very easily could have been popularized simply because of it's emotive appeal. Mothers are pretty universal subjects for curses, as is the devil in cultures where he features prominently and it's entirely possible this phrase is just a neologism resulting from an inevitable intersection, or a bawdy song or some other obscure origin lost to historical record and not at all involving a genuine preexisting spiritual or mythological figure. Snow (talk) 05:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

That, too, is a possibility -- in fact, I've heard from someone a while back that the original expression might well have been "Poshel k yebanoy materi" (something like, "Go and f**k your mother"), and "Poshel k chertovoy materi" ("Go to the devil's mother") would then itself have been a euphemism for the other, totally obscene expression. 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:42, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

There is the article Devil's grandmother, which seems to refer to what the original questioner asked about (and also briefly mentions the Devil's mother). In Norwegian (and I'm pretty sure in Danish too), the Devil's great grandmother ("Fandens oldemor") is often mentioned at the end of lists of nasty, unnecessary, impractical, unrelated or unwanted things - "spyware, plugins, blue-screens, viruses, Trojans and [fandens oldemor]". I doubt that this usage has a theological basis. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 19:52, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

February 18

Ruslan and Lyudmila

I don't know whether this belongs here or on the Humanities desk, but the previous discussion raised another question: In Pushkin's/Glinka's story of Ruslan and Lyudmila, did the evil lecherous (and treacherous) dwarf Chernomor who kidnapped Lyudmila have anything to do with the evil god Chernobog from pagan Slavic mythology? Or is the name just a coincidence? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 06:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

The article that you linked says that Chernobog means "black god", with the cherno- part corresponding to "black". Chernomor redirects somewhere not obviously relevant to the story you're talking about, but it seems a reasonable inference that that name also has "black" in it. Other than that, better wait for a Russian scholar. --Trovatore (talk) 06:31, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

No scholar but I have some information. The черно- (cherno or chorno) part of a word always means black (and it has slavic variants: Carl Czerny = Charles Black). In a neutral context, –мор (mor) is from морe (mo-re), sea, i.e. Chernomor relates to the Black Sea. For example, a sailor from the Black Sea Fleet is a черноморeц (Chernomorets). I checked черномор in Russian WP, and I get a disambiguation page, where the options are:

• the character from Ruslan and Lyudmila (but his name is not mentioned in their article on the story)
• the name of four airships
• a town
• Tatyana Chernomor, an artist.

No mention of Budyonny horses or any kind of horse. However, here is confirmation that the Budyonny horse was developed by cross-breeding the Don horse with the Black Sea horse (Chernomor). So, that means our redirect is misleading, as the Chernomor is still a separate breed from the Budyonny, if not unrelated to it.

But what does all this have to do with the character Chernomor from the story by Pushkin? Well - and I’ve only just learnt this from doing the research - while морe (mo-re) means sea, мор (mor) means widespread death. Chernomor in the context of this story means Black Plague or Black Death, and that's confirmed here. Checking the Russian version of Black Death, we have Чёрная смерть (чёрный мор) - Chornaya smert' (chorny mor). So, Chernomor is definitely an evil character, and he and Chernobog (Black God) both have Black in their names, but otherwise I can't see any significant links between these two. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:40, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Nice work! --Trovatore (talk) 08:47, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

• I am very doubtful that Pushkin, despite being a very well-educated person, thought about Chernobog while writing his poem, as everything we know about Chernobog is from Western Latin manuscripts which quite likely were little known for general public in Russia in those times.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:13, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Wow! I never even made the connection between Pushkin's story and the black plague until now -- I always thought that the name "Chernomor" was derived from the Black Sea! Thanks a million to everyone, and ESPECIALLY to Jack of Oz! 24.23.196.85 (talk) 05:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

My pleasure. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

ἔδει μὲν γὰρ τὴν δι᾽ ἐναντίας

What is written here? thanks --84.110.34.60 (talk) 17:58, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Google translate gives "edei by hand against the gar". I'm not sure how useful that is. Rojomoke (talk) 18:04, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

This is apparently from a papyrus written by somebody named Annianus, which can be found in full here, and the best I can do is "truly binds the opponent" -- the "opponent" perhaps being a reference to Satan (I don't actually read Greek, so I'm guessing). Looie496 (talk) 18:24, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

"τὴν δι᾽ ἐναντίας" refers to the opponent in the dispute (see LSJ A.2.c in the entry). The "ἔδει" is the common idiom "It is necessary (for)" So the clause is something like "For it was necessary for the opponent..." Then there is an intervening participle cause, which describes the situation of the opponent, and a conditional clause, then "ἔτι μᾶλλον δ[ι]αγωνίσασθαι καὶ ἐκδικῆσαι τὰ τῆς παιδός" says what it was (conditionally) necessary for this opponent to do (to struggle and to avenge). You might be able to add "while" or "on the one hand" or something like that for the "μὲν", to set up the "δε" as "but" later on. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 19:10, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

thanks. I do not understand the part γὰρ τὴν δι᾽; ἔδει + gen (ἐναντίας = sg.gen.f) but what is the function of τὴν = sg. acc.f -I guess that δι= διά so it's mean through it - maybe its refer to δίκη --84.110.34.60 (talk) 19:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

τὴν is the "the" in "the opponent". "ὁ δι' ἐναντίας" is a set phrase meaning an opponent in a lawsuit (LSJ A.2.c for entry ἐναντίος). The article feminine because the opponent would seem to be a female. Hence also "τῆς ἀντιδίκου" above, which has the same meaning, "the opponent" or "the defendant". --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 19:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

oh you mean that she is one from the opponents, thank you--84.110.34.60 (talk) 20:06, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Let me be clearer: "τὴν" does not apply to "ἐναντίας", but rather is just part of the set phrase, "ὁ δι' ἐναντίας". The whole phrase "ὁ δι' ἐναντίας" means "the opponent", so the whole phrase "τὴν δι' ἐναντίας" also means "the opponent" but is just feminine and accusative rather than masculine and nominative. "τὴν" is feminine because the opponent is feminine. "τὴν" is accusative because the idiomatic ἔδει phrase can take an accusative object (which ends up being translated in English with an indirect object (e.g., "it was necessary for her to struggle"). I'm not even sure if ἐναντίας is genitive singular or accusative plural. It doesn't really matter though, because it's a set phrase.

So, from "Ὡριγένης νεώτερος" to "καὶ ἀποσπ[ᾶ]":

Horigenes the Younger said: "I demand to have the case given to us for Friday." Ammonius the Orator said: "There is no need for my books for this present case, for an examination will make a display, both from the witnesses and the things done by the defendant, so that she might not have the case set aside [for another day]. But concerning what I plead, I shall teach briefly. For while it was necessary for the defendant, having opposed her aunt and, in course, taking up the side [of her mother? with us], if anyone was harming her, to struggle ever more and to avenge the matters of the child, for it is the aunt who is neglectful, the father's sister, she defrauds and [diverts].

The "ἀποσπ[ᾶ]" (from ἀποσπάω), which I give as "she...diverts" might be some legal term of art, but I can't figure out what it would be. That part "τῇ τάξει μ[ητρὸς(?) τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ] ὑπάρχουσαν" I find hard to decipher. I guess "taking up the side" because "ὑπάρχω" can mean this. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Arabic help

Hi! At what is the Arabic in the images http://www.mem-algeria.org/francais/images/entete-bg-gauche.png and http://www.mem-algeria.org/francais/images/entete-bg-droite.png? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 21:53, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

It says "وزارة الطاقة و المناجم". Adam Bishop (talk) 00:54, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Adam :) WhisperToMe (talk) 01:26, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Which means "Ministry of Energy and Mines" (the French translation is right below). --Xuxl (talk) 10:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

February 19

Complete Set Character

I just found Complete Set Character. Is it valid as is? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 00:10, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I just went bold and put an XfD on it. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 00:23, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I had no idea what it was. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 00:38, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Iesus

Why is Iesus a 4th declension noun in Latin (rather than second)? Any reason or just random choice at some point? --Ornil (talk) 00:57, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The simplest reason is that it is "Iesous" in Greek, and that diphthong becomes a long "u" whenever a Greek word is borrowed into Latin. (It's also irregular in Greek, with the same declensions as the Latin.) Jesus (name) talks a bit about it. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:12, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Written omicron-upsilon was already a monophthongal ū vowel in Koine Greek (u shifting to ü left a gap at u, which the ō vowel written <ου> rose to fill)... AnonMoos (talk) 01:56, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!. --Ornil (talk) 02:46, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Because the 'u' was felt to be part of the stem, as it is in fourth declension ('u-' stem) nouns, rather than just part of the nom. sing. ending. --ColinFine (talk) 19:32, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

"...than what ..." in comparative expressions

In Australia, it's common for people to say things like "You're smarter than what I am" or "I worked harder than what he did, I deserve a bigger pay packet", and similar expressions. Is this superfluous "what" found elsewhere?

I tend to associate it with the people who say "I seen it" (saw) or "I done it" (did) or "That check-out chick only give me five dollars change" (gave). In other words, a less than university level of education and/or living in a rural/regional area. Is this true elsewhere? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:03, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I can't recall ever having heard it. I live in a rural area and have both university-educated and high-school dropouts among my neighbours and acquaintances. Perhaps it isn't a Canadianism. Bielle (talk) 01:09, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Sounds Irish to me. μηδείς (talk) 02:06, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

No, purest Cockney. A couple of seconds Googling found somebody trying to explain rhyming slang (another London export to Australia); "If English is not your mother tongue, or you are not a cockney, like what I am: butcher's = butcher's hook = look".[4] Seen/saw and done/did are both found in London English too.

Our Australian English article quotes Anthony Burgess; ""Australian English may be thought of as a kind of fossilised Cockney of the Dickensian era." Alansplodge (talk) 02:38, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that this construction does not occur in any variety of American English. Marco polo (talk) 03:10, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I've also wracked my brain and failed to come up with a construction common to the U.S. Snow (talk) 08:36, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The illustrative sentences for the full entry at the top of this page show, in passing, the use of this construction in "rural locutions of Maine and northern New Hampshire". (For any who can't see the Google Books page, the sentences are "Liz is full hun'somer than what Vieny is" and "I'm full better'n what you be, Joe Buck!") And farther down, on page 81, the entry for than what reads "Redundant for 'than'." It's my impression that this occurs in various U.S. dialects, not just in the Northeast. The chart at the bottom of page 2 of this PDF handout shows the use of "as what / than what in comparative clauses" as present in more than 80% of nonstandard varieties of American English (though of the examples given in the box at the top of that page, I'd consider 2a to verge on standard, or at least very widespread, English). Deor (talk) 09:49, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Now we're getting somewhere. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 10:37, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

It sounds pretty old-fashioned to me. There are several examples in Huckleberry Finn ("It was floating a little faster than what I was" for one). Adam Bishop (talk) 12:01, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

It's quite common in South Africa but I would personally consider it poor grammar. People whose home language is Afrikaans tend to do it because it is quite acceptable in Afrikaans. e.g. Hy is slimmer as wat ek is. (He is cleverer than what I am.) I don't think rural/urban or level of education plays a big role here. 196.214.78.114 (talk) 14:42, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I know that a written source from outside Wikipedia is always supposed to be superior to the original research of a Wikipedian. However, in this case, we are talking about an unsourced class handout written by two Germans, on the one hand, and the lifelong experience of a professional editor and native speaker of American English on the other. I strongly question their claim that 80% of "nonstandard varieties" (whatever those are supposed to be) of American English display this "than what" construction in a comparative clause. Just what is their basis for this claim? I've never heard that construction come from an American mouth, and I've lived in five states on both coasts and in between (each for periods of more than one year) and visited 25 of them, many of those repeatedly over the years due to family or business connections. If these "nonstandard varieties" are in fact different specimens of dialog as recorded in American works of fiction from the 19th century, then I could believe the claim. I accept that my experience of American English is not comprehensive, and there may be isolated pockets in Appalachia or the deep South where older speakers still use that construction, but it is not current in any variety of American English with large numbers of speakers. Marco polo (talk) 16:18, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I think I've found the source of this "80%" claim. It is this PDF. If you look on page 3, you can see a map of the varieties of English included in this database. The authors' definition of American English includes all varieties spoken in "the Americas". This of course is not the usual definition of American English as English used in the United States (and maybe Canada depending on the source). Now, if you look at the map, you can see that the varieties chosen are not a representative range of regional varieties of United States English. Instead, the varieties include a number of Caribbean patois and a few varieties from the United States, which seem to have been chosen for their degree of divergence from the standard. So what their 80% statement really means is "Among the varieties of English used anywhere in the Americas that are most divergent from standard English, 80%" use this construction. This does not contradict my claim that this construction is rare in the United States. Marco polo (talk) 16:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

That I was, in my youth about 50 years ago, in fairly frequent contact with countrified speakers of one of that study's L1 English varieties (Ozark English), and indeed grew up not far from Huckleberry Finn's stomping grounds, may account for my acceptance that this construction occurs—without being universal—in at least some varieties of U.S. English. I'm sure that I've heard it from living speakers. (And I wish I could afford a set of DARE to see what it says about questions like this one.) Than what does, however, appear to be most prevalent in dialects of England, and that probably accounts for its appearance in Australia. Deor (talk) 17:20, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I should have clarified above that by saying it sounds Irish what I meant was if I were to expect to hear it in the NYC area it would be from an Irishman. Purely subjective OR, of course. μηδείς (talk) 17:19, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think that this construction really sounds alien and foreign to most speakers of American English, at least to the large majority of the population living in major metropolitan areas. I guess I'm not surprised to hear that it is current in the Ozarks, which, together with southern Appalachia, is very culturally conservative and often preserves usages (and nonlinguistic customs) that are no longer current elsewhere in the United States. Marco polo (talk) 19:46, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

That's a very diplomatic way of referring to the lubricious doings of my Ozarkian cousins. Well done, Signor Polo. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:16, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Happy-go-lucky hater

Besides JEALOUS or ENVIOUS, is there a term for those that specifically despise or show disdain for happy-go-lucky people?165.212.189.187 (talk) 16:35, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, type A personality/anal retentive types tend to, although those terms refer to them being uptight, not specifically to hating those who aren't. StuRat (talk) 17:30, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Note that jealousy and envy are approximate synonyms, but pretty much the opposite of disdain. The first is wishing you were like them, while the other is wishing they were like you. (Unless we count the case where you both meet in the middle, these are two different things.) StuRat (talk) 17:57, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The jealous and envious were actually meant as a mild joke considering that the haters might not be either of those... (but should be in my opinion). I am trying to focus on the "hater" aspect where it is obvious that what they are hating (by word and deed) is specifically the carefree, no-worries attitude.165.212.189.187 (talk) 18:05, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Killjoy? (Note also the synonym listed there.) Deor (talk) 18:19, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, thats pretty close. But that is more focused on active fun than on just one's good fortune or general contentedness at all times.165.212.189.187 (talk) 18:53, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Found it: Naysayer, detractor. Even better: "detractivist"165.212.189.187 (talk) 19:00, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

You have me completely confused, StuRat with "Note that jealousy and envy are approximate synonyms, but pretty much the opposite of disdain. The first is wishing you were like them, while the other is wishing they were like you. (Unless we count the case where you both meet in the middle, these are two different things.)" What (jealousy, or jealousy and envy together) means "wishing you were like them" and what (envy or disdain) means "wishing they were like you"? I know of no definition of either "envy" or "disdain" that means "wishing they were like you." Bielle (talk) 19:12, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The first two are grouped together. Disdain, in the context of hating someone because he is different from you, pretty much means you wish they were more like you are. (Of course, there are other reasons to hate someone, in which case it doesn't mean this.) StuRat (talk) 19:18, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand "disdain" to mean that, at all. Is there a reference, or does anyone else have such a read on the word? Bielle (talk) 21:01, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

It only means that in this context. Just like "there" means "at the store" in "I'm going to the store and will buy some bread there", but doesn't mean that in a general sense. StuRat (talk) 21:39, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

"Disdain" means scorn or contempt for something, the opposite of "deign", which means to consider something worthy.[5] Jealousy or envy could go along with that, but not necessarily. Like I say those who hold the USA in disdain might just be jealous. But they might also be repelled by everything we stand for. That wouldn't be jealousy, it would be hatred. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Right, so let's take a specific example. Say the Taliban. They have disdain for the US because it's not like Afghanistan was when they were in control. If the US was 100% devout Muslims under Sharia law, and women were heavily repressed, and the government was a theocracy, then presumably they would no longer have disdain for the US. So, in this context, "disdain" means they wish the US was like them. StuRat (talk) 16:35, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

No, they would continue to have disdain for the US, and they have no wish for the US to be like them, only for the US to leave so they can restore their terroristic, murderous regime. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ —Preceding undated comment added 23:49, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

And why wouldn't they want the US to become West Afghanistan ? StuRat (talk) 01:12, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest "puritan". There is no such term in English as "anti-hedonic", but there should be. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:16, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

"prudish", "censorious" -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:32, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

As with Tom Lehrer's friend "Hen3ry": "Like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:40, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

mofusil

I came across mofusil in a wikipedia article, and not knowing what it meant did a little searching. I see it is used 3 times within wikipedia. I think it likley that it means Wikt:mofussil (note the spelling difference) Do you agree? Would it be sensible for me to change all the mofusil's to Wiktionary links to mofussil? -- SGBailey (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I typed "mofusil" into google and it gave results for "mofussil", but it also asked me if I want to search instead for "mofusil". So I clicked that and it gave me a lot of hits that use "mofusil" in the same way. So it looks like it's an alternative spelling for the same word -- whether non-standard or not I don't know. But Wikipedia itself contains numerous uses of "mofussil", and only a few of "mofusil", so I think your proposed action is a good idea. Duoduoduo (talk) 18:29, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

What is the article that uses that spelling? Looie496 (talk) 20:45, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Typing mofusil into the Wikipedia search bar yields Paranapiacaba, Jafferkhanpet, and Chinnalapatti. Duoduoduo (talk) 23:14, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Done -- SGBailey (talk) 10:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

February 20

Spanish help

Hi, I wonder if someone fluent in Spanish might be able to glance over the document at http://www.scribd.com/doc/97475201/Documento-Posicionamiento-Reloj-Solar , which is cited in the article Equator against the claim:

Quitsato Sundial, at Mitad del Mundo, Ecuador. It's one of the most accurate places in the world in determining Equator position by using modern GPS and GNSS equipment.

The article has been tagged with the question "Why?" (i.e "Why is the determination of the position of the Equator more accurate here than elsewhere?") Does the cited document shed any light on why that might be so, or even claim that it is so? 86.160.222.18 (talk) 12:55, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't consider myself "fluent", but I can tell you that this is a detailed technical explanation of how the Ecuadorian government determined the position of the equator with high precision, using the GPS system. I didn't notice anything claiming that it's the most accurate in the world, or even "one of" the most accurate, to use the wikipedia editor's wording. That conclusion is implicit, and not well-stated in the wikipedia article, either. It would be better to say something like what I said, which the linked article supports: that it was measured with high precision by using a GPS system. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:27, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

As a fluent speaker, I consider Bugs' explanation completely accurate and his suggestion precise.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 03:49, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I removed that claim from the article. 86.160.212.72 (talk) 12:20, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Euphemisms for "fried"

People seem to have figured out that fried food is unhealthy. Many restaurants, rather than stop frying food in response to consumer demand, have instead disguised the fact that their food is fried. For example, Kentucky Fried Chicken has changed their name to "KFC", so people don't think about most of their food being fried (they also introduced grilled chicken, but it's so bad I have to think they are intentionally trying to steer people back to higher profit fried foods).

Now for my Q. The current euphemisms for fried I'm aware of are "battered", "breaded", and "crispy". Are there any others I should be aware of, so I don't get surprised by a greasy, fried mess on my plate ? StuRat (talk) 16:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Of course there are traditional Asian cooking styles that involve deep-frying, such as tempura in Japan or "salt-and-pepper" in China (typically used for seafood). I don't think these labels are euphemistic, since they predate modern health concerns. Also, "fish and chips" is generally deep-fried, without "fried" being part of the dish's name. Marco polo (talk) 16:57, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Beware broasting, which is another form of frying. Kentucky Fried Chicken is technically broasted, though the process antedates the name. The "broasting" name for "pressure frying" arrives from an independent invention of the same process that Harland Sanders came up with when he invented Kentucky Fried Chicken; there are likely other similar methods of pressure frying that have been invented or adapted at various other times in history. For trademark purposes, it isn't called "broasting", but compare the process described at KFC#Origin with that described at broasting. It's the same thing, broadly speaking. --Jayron32 17:38, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Wow; hot pressurized oil ? I'm surprised that doesn't kill as many people from burns as die from eating it. StuRat (talk) 23:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Devices typically have safety features to prevent the possibility of opening while under pressure. I'm not going to say no one has ever been hurt by a failed pressure fryer, but the ubiquitousness of KFC restaurants, and the relatively low skill level of their employees lends to evidence that it isn't markedly less safe than other cookery. You can cause serious damage with any cooking method; and lots of stuff out there on the web specifically recommends against home pressure frying. The wikipedia article on the subject specifically notes that such techniques are limited to commercial kitchens almost exclusively. --Jayron32 02:51, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, electrical home deep fryers seem to be especially dangerous, as kids will pull the cord and the hot oil will spill on them, causing severe burns or death. This model, on the other hand, seem to be specifically designed to spill oil on the father: [6]. StuRat (talk) 05:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Breaded can also mean "coated in breadcrumbs and cooked in the oven". It's not as nice IMHO as fried in breadcrumbs, but seems to be appearing in more and more places. In the UK "pan-fried" often means cooked in a frying pan in a minimal amount of oil. (Pan-fried? What else do you fry in?) To directly answer Stu's Q, look out for "saute" especially saute potatoes. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:41, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I thought "pan-fried" contrasted with "deep-fried"? 86.160.222.18 (talk) 19:50, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

For linking purposes: deep frying and Pan frying. --Jayron32 20:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

...and sautéing. Looie496 (talk) 21:48, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I've also heard of oven frying (although apparently Wikipedia has not). But Google has: [7]. StuRat (talk) 23:27, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Oven fries redirects to French fries. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:10, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Daryl Katz

How does Daryl Katz pronounce his name, cats or kets? The image in his article isn't the best and since he lives near me I was going to knock on his door with my camera and see if he wants a better one. I want to pronounce his name correctly so I don't sound foolish.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Everyone I have known with this surname pronounces it to rhyme with cats. Lesgles (talk) 20:40, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Don't you think, perhaps, that even if you make it to this billionaire's door without being stopped by security people, the response to a knock may be "Release the hounds"? Deor (talk) 20:47, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Not in Edmonton. We don't have many security and violence issues here. He probably has a gate and intercom like the movies. Should I go with 'rhymes with cats' then?--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Found it. 'Kate's rhyming with Gates it seems.--Canoe1967 (talk) 22:26, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation of oxymoron

Years ago my highschool English teacher insisted that "oxymoron" is pronounced /ˈɑkˌsimɔɹɑn/ because it "has nothing to do with morons". Back then I didn't realize it, but in hindsight this was clearly a hypercorrection for the sake of political correctness.

Are there any records of this alternate pronunciation? Are there people who actually use this pronunciation (other than the teacher in question)? I checked the major dictionaries and nothing turned up.Dncsky (talk) 21:26, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Not in Kenyon & Knott or Jones & Gimson; they also go with the familiar ˌ••ˈ•• stress pattern. The only variation is the quality of the vowels. But high school English teachers are not immune from mistake; mine insisted that viscount was pronounced to rhyme with discount and flatly refused to believe 15-year-old me when I pronounced it [ˈvaɪkaʊnt]. Angr (talk) 21:48, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid it is connected with "moron" etymologically.... AnonMoos (talk) 22:05, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I know, but apparently he didn't. In his defense, neither does most people. Dncsky (talk) 22:20, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Maybe the teacher was trying to avoid disruption by children trying to call each other oxymorons in class. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:04, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Oxymoron: n. Someone who has suffered permanent brain damage due to excessive use of the medication, OxyContin. :-) StuRat (talk) 23:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I employ other people to make my mistakes, and then they become a proxymoron. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:33, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Students at rival colleges refer to the students of Occidental College as "Occie Morons". Angr (talk) 10:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

If it helps, the weirdly normal OED gives two pronunciations thus: "Brit. /ˌɒksɪˈmɔːrɒn/ , U.S. /ˌɑksəˈmɔrˌɑn/" from "oxymoron". Oxford English Dictionary (Online ed.). Oxford University Press. (Subscription or participating institution membership required.) (subscription required) whilst the normally weird Merriam-Webster prefers "\ˌäk-sē-ˈmȯr-ˌän\" from Merriam-Webster online:oxymoron --Senra (talk) 11:42, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

When I first saw that idiosyncratic pronunciation guide in M-W, I was filled with indignation. However, attempting to pronounce it as written clearly produces a bad-American-accent version of 'oxymoron' in my British mouth, so clearly it works. 86.163.209.18 (talk) 11:31, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

February 21

Part of speech for interjections

What is the name for this "part of speech"? This is a bit difficult to explain by writing, but can be done very quickly face-to-face. Think of it as an oral, yet nonverbal means of communication. Here goes:

Yes = 2 notes, the 1st lower than the second. Sometimes seen in print as "Uh-huh". No = Just the opposite, 1st higher than the second. I don't know = three notes, the middle one higher than the others, actually sort of humming "I don't know". what? = Hmmm?

Anyway, what is the proper name for these "hummmonyms"?

ThanksBonfiglioli2 (talk) 05:22, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I've added a title for you.Dncsky (talk) 05:29, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

They're interjections.Dncsky (talk) 05:30, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Bonfiglioli2 -- they're kind of interesting because they use sounds that are not regular phonemes of English. The "no" one is [ʔʌʔʌ] with definite glottal stops, strongest stress on the first syllable, and general falling intonation, while the "yes" one is [ʔʌhʌ] with strongest stress on the second syllable, and general rising intonation. The vowels are often pronounced nasalized. Not sure that there's any name for them specifically... AnonMoos (talk) 11:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

"Often" nasalized? For me they sound flat-out wrong without nasalized vowels. Alternatively they can be pronounced with syllabic [m̩] in place of each [ʌ̃]. Angr (talk) 11:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Angr -- when they're kind of breathily semi-whispered, then they can be unnasalized. AnonMoos (talk) 12:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

If you say so. When I breathily semi-whisper them, they still come out nasalized. Angr (talk) 12:12, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Further considering, I guess you're right -- the nasalization is less apparent if they're breathily semi-whispered, but still there... AnonMoos (talk) 17:28, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

See wikt:uh-huh and wikt:uh-uh and http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uh-huh and http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uh-uh. (See also "Yes and no#Colloquial forms of Yes and No".)

—Wavelength (talk) 18:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

What the dictionaries don't have an entry for is the interjection commonly associated with, but not unique to, African-American women, [ˈʔm̩˥˩ʔm̩˧ʔm̩˩], or even the [m̩˦˥˧] that means "I don't know". Angr (talk) 18:25, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, West Africa has been proposed as the place of origin of the expressions uh-uh and uh-huh. [8] Marco polo (talk) 19:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

There's also "uh-oh" [ʔʌʔo] (this one definitely without nasalization)... AnonMoos (talk) 20:26, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

ˈʔm̩˥˩ʔm̩˧ʔm̩˩] uh uh and uh huh μηδείς (talk) 05:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

L'Oréal

What are these two symbols in L'Oréal and what are the functions of these symbols? --PlanetEditor (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Are you referring to the apostrophe and the acute accent? Surtsicna (talk) 09:57, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. --PlanetEditor (talk) 10:00, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

That article reads like it was taken straight from their own website. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

What is the opposite of 'empirical'?

Taken from my Statistics textbook: "Some faculty think that a course is good or bad independent of how well a student feels he or she will do in terms of a grade. Others feel that a student who seldom came to class and who do so poorly as a result will also (unfairly?) rate the course as poor. Finally, there are those who argue that students who do well and experience success take something away from the course other than just a grade and that those students will generally rate the course highly. But the relationship between course ratings and student performance is an empirical question, and as such, can be answered by looking at relevant data." The opposite of "empirical" in this sense seems to be "arbitrary" or "subjective" rather than "non-observable". The speculations of the possible relationships between a student rating the course highly or poorly and the course itself are observable in the sense that the observations are based on personal feeling or experience, which may be quite useful in Bayesian statistics. Right? 140.254.226.238 (talk) 16:06, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I believe the author of the passage is warning that one should do empirical study rather than making a priori assumptions; so perhaps a priori is what you want. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:16, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

If that was directly quoted from your textbook, the publishers need better proofreaders... --TammyMoet (talk) 16:18, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) According to our Empiricism artcle, alternative approaches are "rationalism, idealism, and historicism" It later says "It is a fundamental part of the scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world rather than resting solely on a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation." Alansplodge (talk) 16:20, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if aphorisms would count as a priori statements. They hold knowledge about the world without reason, but with intuition. They are "true", because people experience the meaning of those aphorisms and claim them to be true. On the other hand, it's also possible that aphorisms could be a posteriori, because they depend on human experience and are true pertaining to human experience. 140.254.226.238 (talk) 16:24, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

• I would say that "empirical" is being used here as an opposite of "theoretical". Looie496 (talk) 16:27, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

  I don't like using the word "theory" or any of its forms in this context. It certainly is a common usage, but such a usage confuses the meaning of what a scientific theory is, and causes untold wailing and gnashing of teeth over such misunderstandings. When people say 'theoretical' in this context, what they really usually mean is hypothetical, but even in that case I don't think it makes a good antonym. Empirical in this case means "extends from the data"; i.e. a rough synonym for empirical here would be inductive reasoning, which is the idea that big ideas need to derive from smaller, established principles. In this case of the scientific method, inductive reasoning implies that theory is built from experimental results: you gather data and draw conclusions based on the data. Deductive reasoning, on the other hand, is reasoning built from the top down: it starts from the Big Idea, and attempts to make predictions of future or unknown events based on that. Induction tells you what the theory should be based on the data, while deduction tells you what to expect based on the theory. Contrary to the OPs presumptions in this case, I think the use of "empirical" here IS meant to be contrasted with "non-observable" or at least "not established by data". Empirical here just means "observed", so the opposite in this context might be "deduced". --Jayron32 18:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

"Anecdotal" might be the opposite of "empirical". Bus stop (talk) 21:31, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Not really. Anecdotes are still data, of a kind. It would be shitty empirical evidence, but it still wouldn't be the opposite. As empiricism is "deriving truth from evidence", the opposite would be "deriving truth from deduction". Whatever word you want that captures that would be fine. But that isn't what anecdotes are. --Jayron32 22:39, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Unless they're anecdotes relayed n-th hand, by which time they tend to lose whatever veracity they ever had. Anecdotes told by the people directly involved might be OK; even then, different direct observers will report different things. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:24, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but it still isn't an "opposite" of empirical. The two concepts come from the same general class of concepts, but they aren't opposites. --Jayron32 05:15, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The opposite of empirical as such is a priori, which I refrained from posting given the question was slightly different, but which has been given above, and is correct. μηδείς (talk) 05:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps the opposite is dogmatic or methodic? According to the OED, empiric has its roots in the Latin empīricus and, as the noun "Empirici: A member of the sect among ancient physicians called Empirici (Ἐμπειρικοί), who (in opposition to the Dogmatici and Methodici) drew their rules of practice entirely from experience, to the exclusion of philosophical theory." "empiric". Oxford English Dictionary (Online ed.). Oxford University Press. (Subscription or participating institution membership required.) (subscription required) --Senra (talk) 16:57, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

German and French requests

For File:Swissair 111 debris.jpg The description "Debris recovered from Swissair 111 crash. The center, doorlike object is a cargo door. note how the material curls on impact." What is that in French and German? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 21:26, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

French. Débris récupérés après le crash du vol Swissair 111. Au centre, l'objet en forme de porte est une porte de soute. Notez comment la pièce s'est courbée à l'impact. To avoid repetition we could simply say (for me it's better): Au centre, une porte de soute. — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:41, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

German: Nach dem Unglück von Flug Swissair 111 geborgene Wrackteile. Bei dem Objekt in der Mitte handelt es sich um eine Frachttür; man beachte die Verformung des Materials durch den Aufprall. The English is kind of awkward, so I have not translated literally. Lectonar (talk) 10:02, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

February 22

"conservative"

What term do statisticians use to describe the opposite of "conservative"? I want to say "liberal", but I feel it's a bit iffy when it comes to numerical figures. "Conservative" in statistics seems to mean "a low figure" or "a p-value that supports the resistance to acknowledge a statistical significant change or observation in the population (as opposed to random chance) by failing to reject the null hypothesis". So, an extremely conservative statistician would probably be someone who chooses an incredibly low z score and may fall to the Type II error, if the null hypothesis is found to be true. In this case, the term "conservative" seems to be vaguely similar to the "resistance to change" but used specially in this context. In a different situation, a person is described "socially conservative", when that person resists societal change (e.g. using the same energy source instead of taking risky but "green" alternative fuel source). A person is described "fiscally conservative", when that person resists financial change or experiencing the decrease in money supply in his wallet (e.g. miserly or stingy). A person is described "religious conservative", when that person wants to keep old interpretative traditions of a particular religion. In all these situations, it seems that "conservative" means "failure or resistance to change" broadly speaking. I am still uncertain about using the term "liberal" as the proposed antonym for "conservative". 140.254.226.231 (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I think they work as general antonyms. For example, in cooking, you could say either "I'd be conservative with the amount of X I add to the recipe" or "I'd be liberal with the amount of X I add to the recipe". StuRat (talk) 16:54, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

His number of days has come

Which is more idiomatic English: [An event will happen] after the required number of days have passed. / ...number of days has passed. The word number is singular but the if the phrase "number of days" is understood to mean e.g. "four days", the plural verb sounds better. --Pxos (talk) 16:41, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I would use "number of days has passed", because the has is describing the number. It makes more sense to my ear, anyway. 140.254.226.231 (talk) 16:48, 22 February 2013 (UTC)