Jump to content

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Featured log/March 2013: Difference between revisions

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Add 4
Add 1
Line 1: Line 1:
{{TOClimit|3}}
{{TOClimit|3}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alben W. Barkley/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/H. C. McNeile/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/H. C. McNeile/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Joaquim José Inácio, Viscount of Inhaúma/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Joaquim José Inácio, Viscount of Inhaúma/archive1}}

Revision as of 11:33, 5 March 2013

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 17:57, 6 March 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Alben W. Barkley

Nominator(s): Acdixon (talk · contribs) 21:40, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since my last Kentucky governor FAC was met with a collective yawn, I've decided to see if I can generate more interest with a U.S. Vice President from Kentucky. This article has been through the wringer, from an RFC on its length and number of references, to a successful GAC nomination, to a partial copyedit from Collect (talk · contribs), to a full-fledged peer review. Now, I think it's ready for FAC. I will do my best to respond promptly to comments. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 21:40, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the FAC instructions where it says, "None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a delegate; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a delegate will decide whether to remove it. Nominators whose nominations are archived with no (or minimal) feedback will be given exemptions." Have you requested an exemption? Graham Colm (talk) 22:00, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, I didn't, because I misread the instructions. I thought they referred to re-nominating the article that just failed; I didn't see that they referred to any other article. I guess I've been in violation of this rule several times, and no one has ever called me on it, so mine was a sin of ignorance. I assume you would agree that the Stevenson nomination received minimal feedback and should qualify for an exemption? Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:27, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I agree. Given the paucity of reviews of your previous nomination, I think it is acceptable to proceed with this one. Graham Colm (talk) 15:35, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support:

  • You describe how he went from "Willie Alben" to "William Alben," but don't say how he came to be "Alben William," unless I missed it.
  • How much did Barkley win his first House election by? Was the primary the main contest, or was his district one of the ones Republicans occassionally won back then?
    • I will try to dig up that source again and see if it says. I'm usually exceedingly diligent about including that when it's available, so I'm inclined to believe it wasn't. Without doubt, the primary would have been the main contest. The First District was the most solidly Democratic district in the state for decades, including this time period. Details here. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 16:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The declaration of war in 1917--you say he voted for it when it came before the Senate. Should that be "House"?
  • Under "U.S. Senator", do you identify the Bourbon faction before this point? If not, a link might help, especially in a Kentucky article where it might be confused with the county.
  • Was the Hatch Act specifically a reaction to shenanigans in Kentucky, or were there similar incidents elsewhere that were equally notorious?
    • My impression is that, if there were other instances (and surely there were), they were far from equally notorious. The Barkley-Chandler contest seems to have been a contest of national interest, which put the spotlight on the issues addressed by the Hatch Act. Admittedly, most of my sources are Kentucky-centric, but they read as though the act was a direct response to this particular election. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 16:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's all I have, other than some minor copyediting I did. Nice article! --Coemgenus (talk) 20:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN84: formatting
  • FN94: page formatting
  • FN141: which Libbey?
  • Be consistent in whether you include locations for books
  • University Press of Kentucky or The University Press of Kentucky? Register of the Kentucky Historical Society or The Register of the Kentucky Historical Society?
  • Check formatting of quotation marks within quotation marks
  • Lake Barkley: doubled period from template
  • Pietrusza: ISBN?
  • Check page formatting in Further reading
  • External link should use endash. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:51, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All done! Acdixon (talk · contribs) 15:47, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support I had my say at the peer review, and, for the most part, my concerns were addressed. I'd still like to see a bit more on Barkeley's personal style, which was folksy and distinctive, but that's not enough to stop me from supporting.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:04, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK as Public Domain, sources and authors provided, one small problem:

  • The derivative images should be tagged with "self|Cc-by-sa-3.0". "PD-Harris-Ewing" refers to the original copyright situation of the original image (some uploaders add such original tags as secondary tag for information purposes). Derivative works create a new copyright with the need for a license from the creator of the derivative. GermanJoe (talk) 09:24, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: This looks like a very worthy political biography, and I am not far off supporting. I do however have a few issues:-

  • Possible overdetailing: these political articles can be difficult reading for those unfamiliar with the context. One way of making them more accessible is to be sparing on minor detail; I feel that in this article one is sometimes bogged down with trivia. As an example, consider this, (concerning Barkley's run in the primaries for governor in 1922):

"Bingham's campaign forced Barkley to declare his candidacy earlier than planned, but it was not successful outside Louisville; Beckham supporters backed Barkley, more to prevent Cantrill's nomination than because they desired Barkley's.[68] Beckham's law partner, Elwood Hamilton, became Barkley's campaign chairman, and Percy Haly, a political boss in the Beckham faction, was a Barkley advisor.[69] Barkley recruited Wiley B. Bryan, a former Cantrill supporter, as his campaign treasurer, and appointed Mildred Spaulding, who supported Barkley more than Cantrill or Beckham, as head of his Louisville campaign headquarters.[70]"

All very hard to follow, and is this level of detail really necessary, for what was an ultimately unsuccessful campaign and hardly central to Barkley's life and career? This is one example; there are other similar cases.
    • Good point. The idea here is that Barkley attracted support across factional boundaries, which was important in his later Senate run. I've reduced the detail here. I'm more than open to your pointing out additional examples. I've been through this thing trying to reduce it's length so many times that I can no longer effectively identify these things anymore. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 14:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • The reduced text is definitely better, though you need to clarify what is meant by "it" in "it was not successful outside Louisville". The tactic, presumably? I don't have time to suggest specifically in what other areas you might trim detail; this was more by way of advising you to be watchful for any chances to improve readability, which can be something of a problem with political biographies of, shall we say, the non-stellar variety. Brianboulton (talk)
  • In the lead, "Roosevelt" is mentioned with no link or indication as to who he was. Presumably most/all American readers will know, but for the rest of us, well he's been gone many years...I'd specify "President Roosevelt" and link.
  • "Coolidge administration" does not seem an appropriate section heading, as Coolidge's presidency is not discussed in the text.
  • Who says Davis was "lacklustre"? This reads as an editorial judgement.
    • This is Libbey's judgment, although Davis' own article calls him a "dark horse" for the presidency in 1924. I'm not sure "little-known" is exactly correct, but it's clear he wasn't really a competitive candidate. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 13:30, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Barely. You say, earlier, "future prohibition legislation, including the Eighteenth Amendment" which is not very precise. For the benefit of younger and non-American readers I would uses this latter sentence to include a link, thus: "Barkley called for a platform plank directing Congress to repeal prohibition.
  • What was Roosevelt's "court-packing plan"?
    • It's a bit complicated. The law limits the number of Supreme Court justices to nine, and appointments are for life. The Supreme Court struck down some of Roosevelt's New Deal, so he proposed the "court-packing plan", which would allow him to appoint an additional justice for every sitting justice over the age of 70. Ostensibly, the idea was to reduce the workload of the older judges, but as I understand it, most folks, even non-politicos, saw it as a transparent attempt to allow Roosevelt to appoint more justices friendly to the New Deal without having to wait for sitting justices to retire. As such, it was cherished legislation for New Deal supporters and totally anathema to New Deal opponents. The wikilink is on the word "legislation" in the previous paragraph. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 14:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you explain: The New York Times called the race "the Gettysburg of the party's internecine strife over national control in 1940 [at the Democratic National Convention]"? Doesn't seem to make sense in the context.
    • I assume (perhaps wrongly) that most folks know that Gettysburg was a key battle in the American Civil War. The Times was comparing the Kentucky primary to that key battle because it was a challenge to Roosevelt's hand-picked Senate floor leader by a New Deal opponent. If Barkley had lost, it would have been seen as a repudiation of his New Deal agenda. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 14:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...all of these candidates won, damaging Roosevelt's image." Wrong use of participle; you could say: "thereby damaging" or "which damaged".
  • "In 1943, Roosevelt refused to appoint Barkley to a vacancy on the Supreme Court". There is no previous indication that Barkley sought such a position. Also, to the general reader this refusal seems eminently reasonable, given Barkley's slender legal training and limited practical experience, yet you make it seem as though Roosevelt was denying Barkley his rightful due.
    • I'm pretty sure Barkley was seeking a patronage appointment. He had been a loyal supporter of Roosevelt, and he thought he was entitled to the appointment if he wanted it. The source doesn't explicitly say that, but it's a political tradition in the U.S. that dates back basically to the country's founding. Usually, it's a cabinet post, a diplomatic mission, or a lower federal judgeship, but this would not have been the first time a president made a patronage appointment to the court, and it would have been less strange still considering Roosevelt's adversarial relationship with the sitting justices. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 14:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " making 40 major speeches his first eight months in office" - something missing there.
  • " Illinois Governor Adlai Stevenson (son of the vice-president)..." Grandson, I believe, and "former vice president", without the hyphen.

All in all, highly creditable. I'd never heard of him, but have now. Brianboulton (talk) 21:15, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, and sorry about the slow response. Been a busy (but rewarding) couple of weeks at work, and my little girl was sick, but is feeling much better now. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 14:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ready to support when the final tweaking is done. More importantly, I hope your little daughter is better, and no more sleepless nights. Brianboulton (talk) 18:27, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the well wishes for Little Miss Acdixon, who was recovered enough to take in the Senior Day basketball festivities at my alma mater this weekend. Thankful for Tamiflu; hope the flu hasn't been as bad where you are as it has been in the States this year. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 15:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support after careful attention given to my points raised above. As I said earlier, very creditable. Brianboulton (talk) 21:37, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Having read about a third of the article so far, this is very really well written, insightful and engaging to the reader. Cmts to follow. Ceoil (talk) 22:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notwith standing, this was a pleasure to read, I have a few quibbles I can sort myself. Re: Read the other two thirds last night, made a few small tweaks, few more to make, its a Support from me anyroads. Ceoil (talk) 01:03, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support. Most of your tweaks were fine, but I altered a few of them for various reasons. If you feel strongly about any of the ones I changed, we can discuss. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 15:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 17:58, 6 March 2013 (UTC) [2].[reply]

H. C. McNeile

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 03:49, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One of the forgotten giants of the golden age of British detective fiction, H. C. McNeile is a largely forgotten figure today. Best known for his Bulldog Drummond stories, McNeile created the forerunner to later thriller heroes—Drummond was both a proto-Bond and Biggles—but he also wrote extensively about the First World War, while serving on the front line. Some top-drawer assistance during the peer review has helped immensely in developing this article. – SchroCat (talk) 03:49, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support – I took part in the peer review, where my few quibbles were satisfactorily attended to. The article is comprehensive but not excessive in length, well proportioned, unbiased, well referenced, and in highly readable prose. It meets the FA criteria, in my opinion. Tim riley (talk) 10:11, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support – I have had the joy of following this article from the start and have enjoyed its progression to FAC. Like Tim I played a hand at the peer review where all my comments were addressed. A thoroughly worthy candidate and one that certainly has my support to FA status. -- CassiantoTalk 10:35, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check from GermanJoe

- all OK (3 of 3 done). some of the images need clarification regarding their copyright status:

  • File:Sapper_APWatt.jpg has 2 problems: "for representation in Wikipedia articles" would be an invalid license limitation for Wiki-images (it must be completely free except attribution). The other issue is the missing OTRS-ticket tag, making it hard to verify the situation. Is there a similar image of him available with a clearer copyright situation? Either replace or we could try a request to check it on OTRS-noticeboard.
  • I have not found any other images on my searches, but it is possible there are others in books that could be scanned. I thought that the email agreement from the copyright owners for us to use it on Wiki would be sufficient, but I'll ask at Commons for some more clarity on the use. - SchroCat (talk) 15:31, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:No_Man's_Land_-_1ed_ed_cover.jpg - OK, only when the cover was first used for the US edition. Could you clarify, if this was the first published edition and/or other editions used different covers?
  • File:Bulldog_Drummond_Poster.jpg - The source website claims: "The artwork was done by E. William Haemmel.", author info needs to be checked and added. Also the country of origin is unclear, could you verify, that the poster was first published in the US and not in the UK? (if UK, you need a second UK-specific copyright tag).
  • As far as can be ascertained, it was the US only, (although as this is a lost film, there is very little info, including artwork). E. William Haemmel was an American illustrator and the searches I did for him previously show little info, except a few covers of US magazines. - SchroCat (talk) 15:31, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hm, F. or E. William Haemmel? This link [[3]] of an old newspaper , and a few others, has F. as illustrator of covers. Either way i'll add a small note with disclaimer to the summary.
  • Other images are OK (PD-1923, geograph project). Sources and authors provided.

Generally, when the work's country of origin is not US, you'll need a second copyright tag for this country (atleast for Commons images, images downloaded on Wiki-servers would be OK with US-copyright only). GermanJoe (talk) 15:10, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Status update, 2 of 3 done GermanJoe (talk) 16:05, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All images OK - first image deleted via OTRS-team and replaced with fair-use File:(Herman)_Cyril_McNeile_by_Howard_Coster.jpg. GermanJoe (talk) 22:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much GermanJoe, for all your work on this review - as well as going off and dealing with the OTRS team too: it is very mcuh appreciated! - SchroCat (talk) 22:21, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Nikkimaria

- spotchecks not done

  • Page number for pull-quote in Post-war?
  • FN2, 97: possible to format these as single footnotes?
  • FN4: page(s)?
  • Check alphabetization of Journals
  • Where is Westport? Whitefish? Jefferson?
  • Be consistent in whether you include publishers for journals

Initial Comments from Ceranthor

  • Source 15, 94, 60, 63, 89, and 95 should probably have publishers. Source 5 and 20 also.
  • Some of the citations to Treadwell 2001, p. 111. are unnecessary, making the extent to "m" bothersome. In the bits of text where it is used successively alone after itself, such as in these two sentences ("Few details are known about McNeile's wartime service, as his records were destroyed by incendiary bombs during the Second World War.[7] He spent time with a number of Royal Engineer units on the Western Front, including 1st Field Squadron, 15th Field Company and 33rd Division, where he was the commander.[7]") I don't think it needs to be cited more than once. I think this is most prevalent in "First World War service".
  • There's only two (one of which is your quoted one) which I'm comfortable taking out. The others are not clear cut enough to remove without appearing to be supported by other references. - SchroCat (talk) 19:57, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consistency is needed for the footnotes listing for example "The ten Drummond novels are"... I changed them to a prose format, but it is entirely up to you whether or not they should be a list or prose. They just all need to be the same, please!
  • Are sources 94 and 95 ("New Mystery Stories") actually separate articles, or is the difference just a matter of date of publication?

Will come back to look over prose once these comments are addressed. ceranthor 22:38, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A Few Prose Comments from Ceranthor
  • Early life:
    • he travelled via England - I assume this means through? Can't we just say through? Via is usually not used in this context in my experience.
  • Post-war
    • a member of "the Breed" - could you clarify briefly what the Breed is here? Oops, missed it earlier!
    • He had a loud voice and a louder laugh, who "liked to enliven clubs and restaurants with the sight and sound of military good fellowship"; - The way this sentence is composed makes it sound like you intend to say his laugh "liked to...".
  • Death
    • On his death his estate was valued at over £26,000.[5] - Is on his death proper British English? I've heard the "on something" phrase once, but it was in some sort of poem - I think Walt Whitman, so it could've been an experimental phrase. Just a clarification would be nice if it is grammatically sound.
  • Reception
    • similarly, his thrillers also went well, with Bulldog Drummond selling 396,302 copies between 1920 and 1939, - I don't think books "go well". Sales do!
    • the Daily Mirror estimated he had earned £85,000 from his writing.[91] - Over his entire career I would think. Not quite clear for some reason.

In general, it seems like you're overusing commas a bit throughout the article, but I think it's sound in terms of prose with just a few niggling issues. I'm going to continue running through the article over the next few days, but I'm more than comfortable with its condition.
Support. ceranthor 22:06, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton

Comments leaning to support: I carried out a limited peer review (images and lead prose). Having just read the whole article, I think it is in pretty good shape, though I think one more prose pass would be beneficial. I have done a few fixes myself; in addition, here is a list of some relatively minor points I picked up in the first half of the article. I'd like to be reassured that the second half has been checked over, before fully committing to support:

  • "although he adopted the life-long nickname Mac to his friends" - does not real well. Is "Mac" really a "nickname"? For someone called McNeile I'd say it was a diminutive. And does one "adopt" one's own nickname? I think the phrase should be simplified: "...although he was always known by his friends as Mac"
  • "He spent time with a number of Royal Engineer units on the Western Front, including 1st Field Squadron, 15th Field Company and 33rd Division, where he was the commander". What exactly was he commander of? It reads as though you mean the 33rd Division, but divisional commanders were Major-generals, so I assume you don't mean that. As a captain he may have commanded a company. Needs clarification.
  • "McNeile later admitted...": this phrasing always sounds like a confession to a crime. Perhaps "confided"?
  • I think the capitalisation in "and was Mentioned in Despatches" is dubious. Outside Wikipedia it is not normally written like this. Note: this usage occurs twice in the paragraph.
  • In what sense was Treadwall an "independent" scholar?
  • "was briefly hospitalised, forcing him..." Better: "which forced him..."
  • "there is also an element of The Scarlet Pimpernel too." Last word redundant ("also" encompasses "too")
  • " Later in 1922 he resigned his commission..." "He" is inadequate; you've mentioned two other people since last naming NcNeile.
  • Link tax exile, and also reorder the sentence so that it doesn't imply that McNeile's wife was the tax exile.

Brianboulton (talk) 20:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Brian: as always your time, effort and thoughts are hugely appreciated and I hope the subsequent edits have done justice to your comments. I'll go over the remainder of the article again tomorrow morning for a further ce. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Butting in: thanks Brian. Regarding "Mentioned in Despatches", you're quite right ... I haven't seen "proper verbs" outside of military usage (and the occasional trademark; "Xeroxed" was capitalized many years ago), so however common the phrase is with the military, we lowercase it in Milhist articles, or switch to the noun form, "received a Mention in Despatches". - Dank (push to talk) 20:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Dank: your input is much appreciated and I've dropped it into lower case. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support with a few more quibbles (I've also done some more prose tweaking - see article's edit history):

  • A phrase as subjective (and unidiomatic) as "unremittingly hearty" really should be in quotes and attributed to a source.
  • The two present-day values that you show (£225,337 for £5000 and £1,243,485 for "over £26,000") are both instances of spurious accuracy. These present-day-value formulae, especially the somewhat eccentric ones on which Measuringworth's calculations are based, are never that pin-point accurate, and "over 26,000" is anyway an approximation. Personally I avoid any controversy over present-day values by not giving them; if you want to keep them in I suggest you say "over £200,000" and "about £1.2 million" respectively. That's as much accuracy as is possible or necessary, and should avoid further quibbling.
  • Bibliography" means all sources, not just books, so I would bring the three journal articles into the main alphabetical listing. (That would have saved me time looking for the Bourn source).
  • Sorry! I've always lumped everything in together until a previous article where I was told quite strongly to separate them out—something I've always objected to! (In fact I may go back and try and remember which article it was and merge them all together again...) - SchroCat (talk) 18:42, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article in good shape now, and eminently promotable. Brianboulton (talk) 16:56, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As always Brian, many, many thanks for all your efforts at sorting out my scribbling. I am deeply in your debt and I'll try not to bother you for anything more (for a little while at least!) Thanks again. - SchroCat (talk) 18:42, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some comments from Carabinieri:

  • "His thrillers are a continuation of his war stories with the threat to England from foreigners having to be fought by upper class Englishmen" I think I understand that sentence. You're saying that there is an analogy between the struggle between Englishmen and foreign armies in his WWI stories and that between Englishmen and foreigners in his later stories. That could probably be expressed more clearly.
  • I wondered why in the "Style and technique" section the discussion of his work during WWI precedes that of his post-war work.
  • Reading the article, I wondered when and how the collaboration between McNeile and Fairlie started.
  • Having a "biography" section on the one hand but then discussing the man's death in another doesn't really make sense to me. I would suggest merging the "biography" and "personal life" sections. I would move the first paragraph of the later section to the beginning of the "Post-war" sub-section and attaching "Death and legacy" as a its own sub-section.--Carabinieri (talk) 14:37, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nice. I forgot to mention this in my comments: I enjoyed reading the article. Good job. I'd support, but I don't know anything about the topic, so I don't think I can make that kind of assessment.--Carabinieri (talk) 17:29, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Many thanks for casting your eagle eyes over this one Dan. (And its got so many copy editors because my bloody awful writing needs it!) many thanks - SchroCat (talk) 17:28, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 17:58, 6 March 2013 (UTC) [4].[reply]

Joaquim José Inácio, Viscount of Inhaúma

Nominator(s): • Astynax talk; Lecen (talk) 04:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because the existing article has been recently rewritten with the addition of images and better sources. • Astynax talk 04:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Joaquim José Inácio, Viscount of Inhaúma was born in the Kingdom of Portugal in 1808. He served his entire life in the navy of the Empire of Brazil, leading it in the Paraguayan War that lasted from 1864 until 1870. --Lecen (talk) 11:53, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • A few comments on the lead prose:
  • " After Brazilian independence in 1822, Inhaúma enlisted to serve in the armada (navy) of Brazil." Is it right, in this context, to refer to him as "Inhaúma", when he did not acquire this title until 1867? The same applies to other statements in the lead. I note that in the article itself you call him "Joaquim Inácio" until his title is conferred.
  • "enlisted to serve..." The words "to serve" are redundant.
  • "during the latter half of the 1820s, he engaged in subduing secessionist rebellions". As worded, this suggests a major role which, in view of his youth, is unlikely. Suggest you soften to "participated in the subduing of..." or similar
  • "during that troubled period". In the interests of neutrality I would remove "troubled".
  • "He first saw action in the Sabinada between 1837 and 1838..." This will confuse readers, who have just been told he put down rebellions in the late 1820s, which is presumably where he first saw action.
  • "a couple years" is colloquial American English. It is not encyclopedic.
  • I am somewhat puzzled by the fourth paragraph, which summarises Inhaúma as hesitant, procrastinating, mentally exhausted and diseased, yet then says he is regarded as among the greatest Brazilian navy officers. Perhaps, rather than making so definitive a statement ("Inhaúma's leadership was encumbered by his hesitating and procrastinating behavior") you should qualify this, e.g. "some historians believe that..." etc.

That's all I have time for at the moment. Will return if possible. Brianboulton (talk) 20:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Brian. It's good to see you. Now let's take a look at your comment:
  1. He is called Inhaúma in the entire text of the lead for simplicity's sake. It's the same standard used in other similar articles such as Pedro II of Brazil, Luís Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias, Manuel Marques de Sousa, Count of Porto Alegre, etc...
  2. "enlisted to serve..." Fixed that.
  3. "during the latter half of the 1820s, he engaged in subduing secessionist rebellions". Fixed as per your suggestion.
  4. "during that troubled period". It was a troubled time the regency in the 1830s. It was regarded as such by contemporaries and historians. Don't worry, it isn't a controversial issue. In fact, nothing in the article or related to it it's controversial.
  5. "He first saw action in the Sabinada between 1837 and 1838..." Fixed that by removing "first".
  6. "a couple years" Changed for "two".
  7. "I am somewhat puzzled by the fourth paragraph, which summarises Inhaúma as hesitant..." Merely because he was a brave officer and regarded by a few historians as one of the greatest in Brazilian history doesn't mean that he was devoid of flaws, right? And that is also uncontroversial. Even his superior, the Duke of Caxias complained about his behavior.
I hope you'll find time to take a look at the rest of the article. Thanks for your imput, --Lecen (talk) 00:45, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with these responses. As I say, I'll try to find time for a more detailed look. Brianboulton (talk) 18:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment (drive-by) - Inline source "Ouro Preto (1894)" lacks a full bibliographic entry in "References". GermanJoe (talk) 11:26, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, GermanJoe. I added the missing book. --Lecen (talk) 11:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

Source review - spotchecks not done

Image check - all OK, some more tweaks needed (cleaned up a few summaries):

Two more comments:

  • One repeating problem is the lack of original publication info. I realize, it's probably difficult or impossible to find all details, but a bit more information would help to strengthen the PD-1923 license: are you sure, those images were published pre-1923? Where would such images usually be published, in Brazilian newspapers or books? Even if the original source is lost, it would help to explain, why we believe it's pre-1923. (see additional details below)
  • Reading the article as a complete novice, the portrait captions look a bit repetitive. Just "name, aged, year" for every portrait may be encyclopedic, but doesn't draw the reader into the article. Any more brief details to add to the captions, atleast for a few of them? GermanJoe (talk) 10:12, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi, Joe, it's good to see you. The reason to why I used "PD-100" was because I compared with the lifetime of contemporary Brazilian photographers: Revert Henrique Klumb (183? — c. 1886), Alberto Henschel (1827-1882), Augusto Stahl (1828-1877), etc... all active in the 1860s. Marc Ferrez (1843-1923), who was active in the 1880s lived until 1923. I can hardly believe that the photographer who took those photos lived until the 1890s, even less the 1910s. In the specific case of the Viscount of Inhaúma, photographs and lithographys portraying him became common in the 1860s until his death in 1869 after he became Minister of Navy and commanded the Brazilian navy in the Paraguayan War (1864-70). Photos were sold nationwide (just like in the U.S. with Grant and Lee, for example), litographs were published in newspapers, etc... There are no known portraits of Inhaúma after his death. I added a few words to a couple of captions. I'm out of ideas here. If you have any suggestions I'd appreciate. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 12:40, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the additional background information. All images should be OK as PD then, based on the available context. A bit of a grey area, but absent time travelling to check this in person the reasoning is good enough for me ;). GermanJoe (talk) 13:53, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Sturmvogel_66

  • Shouldn't Agriculture Ministry/Minster be capitalized as proper nouns?
  • Link corvette, frigate, schooner, firefighter corps and schooner/brig
  • I think of mate as an enlisted rank, but he was an officer. So what's going on here?
  • Is there any explanation as to why his ships keep suddenly sinking on him? Was there so little maintenance in the armada that this was a common occurrence?
  • Don't hyphenate prime minister--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 06:40, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for going through the article. I believe the capitalization of the titles follows WP:JOBTITLES (i.e., they are capitalized only when used in the place of a proper name or immediately before a proper name). I've also inserted the wikilinks. Lecen is looking over the sources to see if they give explanations of the rank and ship sinkings and will respond here. • Astynax talk 09:11, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That works for the title, but not the ministry itself.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:26, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I missed that one, and it is now corrected. • Astynax talk 18:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Sturmvogel 66. I'm glad to see you here. Let's take a look at your questions:
  1. Neither Barros (1870) nor Sisson (1999) explain why the Duquesa de Goiás sank in 1827. All they say was that he was the last officer to leave the doomed vessel and how noble and brave he was for acting like that. I opted not to mention the "noble" and "brave" parts or we would have written an hagiography, not a biographical article. Frota (2008), however, gives the reason to the sinking: when the ship entered the channel of the Río Negro (Argentina), it made a wrong maneuver, colliding in a bank and water started plumbing in (p.17). Since was neither the commander of the ship, nor its pilot, but merely a member of the crew, I thought it wouldn't be worth the mention since it could look like we were blamming him. Now for the Jaguaripe, the ship lost in 1833: Barros (1870) does not give an explanation to why it sank, but he mentions that the Jaguaripe was an "old schooner of awful construction" (that is, that it had serious flaws in her construction). Frota (1008) does not tell how the ship went down. Sisson (1999) also said that it was old and badly built. He does, however, explain why the ship sank: an increasingly strong wind forced the ship aground in the Brazilian litoral.
  1. OK, good enough for Duquesa de Goias since he was just a passenger. But you should describe how Jaguaripe was lost in a little more detail since he was involved. Ships' bottoms do occasionally rot and allow the ship to sink, q.v. CSS North Carolina, but that's not very common.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:26, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Regarding the mate doubt: he was the "oficial imediato" of the Pará and Grenfell. According to the Wikipedia in Portuguese, the name given in English is "chief officer" and "first mate". In the Wikipedia in English, the names given in Chief mate are: "Chief mate", "Chief Officer", "First Officer" and "First Mate".
  1. First mate is a title that applies to civilian ships, not military ones. The best translation of the Portuguese would be First Officer or First Lieutenant.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:26, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I hope that helps. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 12:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed all remaining issues. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 19:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comment

In the lead I think we could afford to lose "but died before taking office" or possibly change it to "but never assumed office". Reasoning is that when completing the third of what have essentially been three chronological paragraphs with his death, I expected the last to be a general summing up, legacy, etc, but in fact we had more chronological career summation still to go, and it kind of jarred for me. Not a big deal, just something to consider. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To tell you the truth, Ian, I'm not entirely happy with this article. Although he was one of the most important navy officers in Brazilian imperial history, there is little information available about him. As you can see in he bibliography, I had to use a biography published in 1870! What bothers me the most in the article, however, is the legacy section. It's one paragraph long only! Other similar articles (Luís Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias and [[Manuel Marques de Sousa, Count of Porto Alegre], for example) reveal far more of how posterity saw others. What I hope is that I find either a book that I may have missed that gives a better overview of Inhaúma's legacy or that one is published in the next few years. There is an alarming lack of interest in Brazil (my country) regarding military affairs. Unlike other nations such as the USA and the UK, we don't have many books about our military history. If four or five admirals and generals from the imperial era had biographies published in the past 100 years that's a lot. History books about that period focus far more on society and culture, a little on politics (except for the emperors) and almost nothing on warfare. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 15:07, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Careful, Lecen, if you go much further it'll sound like you're opposing your own nom, which would be a first in my experience... ;-) Seriously though, aside from the support from the reviewers, there appears to me to be quite sufficient detail for a FAC, and if the legacy section is not as full as you'd like it be, you can only go by what sources are available. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:02, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 17:59, 6 March 2013 (UTC) [5].[reply]

Aaliyah (album)

Nominator(s): Dan56 (talk) 23:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this as a featured article candidate because I feel it is well written, its topic is fairly notable, and it fulfills FA criteria. Dan56 (talk) 23:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Initial comment – first and foremost, the lead is a little too long for the article's size. We have around 23 KB of prose, but need 30 for a four-paragraph introduction. Please trim the lead down to three paragraphs, weeding out excessive detail and instead giving a more concise overview of what's to be expected further down. For example, there's quite a bit of unnecessary discussion of the song's chart performance and sales. That needs to be tightened. Overall, this seems to be an engaging article. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 00:51, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Dan56 (talk) 01:40, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Unless another image check is needed for purposes of this review, this could be looked at as a point of reference. Dan56 (talk) 06:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Cassianto

I'm not too familiar with this young lady's work, so excuse my ignorance if I get a few things wrong. All comments come in good faith so feel free to disagree.

Lead Section
  • "After releasing her 1996 album One in a Million and raising her profile with hit soundtrack singles..." Such as?
I didnt think it was relevant enough to go into that much detail for the lead, which the previous commentator here suggested I trim to begin with. Those singles are covered well enough at Aaliyah. It's a minor detail being summarizied from the short "background" paragraph of this article. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She started working on the album in 1998 and resumed its recording in 2000" - Did she stop midway then? If so, why was that? There was no mention that she had started recording, only that she was working on it. Two years to record an album does seem a long time.
Revised. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Upon its release, Aaliyah received very positive reviews..." The adverb offers nothing here and sounds grammatically wrong.
See comment at Critical reception. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Aaliyah subsequently shot a music video for the single "Rock the Boat" in the Bahamas, but died returning to the United States in a plane crash on August 25, 2001." - Subsequent to what? What happened prior to this as suggested?
Added a bit of what I previously trimmed from the lead to clarify. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... but died returning to the United States in a plane crash on August 25, 2001." Might I suggest, "but died in a plane crash on a return flight to the United States on August 25 2001."
Done. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After her death, the album's sales skyrocketed..." hmm...not sure about "Skyrocketed". It sounds a bit magaziney.
I thought so at first after trying to find a synonym for what the source used (cited in the "commercial performance" section), but it seemed to be legit term used in economic/financial journals after looking through Google Books and News. Seems the most appropriate in this context. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Background
  • "After releasing her 1996 album One in a Million, Aaliyah graduated from high school the following year and recorded several songs for film soundtracks" - Which soundtracks? Give maybe one example here.
"Are You That Somebody?" is the soundtrack single most mentioned in the sources I researched for background on this album, so I mentioned it in the sentence following this one. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Recording
  • "He found Aaliyah to be ideal for his songwriting style" would be better
Done. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some might not know what "Jet" is, so I would use Jet magazine so as not to force the reader to click off to find out.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Music and lyrics
  • "A neo soul album, Aaliyah features midtempo funk songs, hip hop-textured uptempo tracks, and slow jams that draw on older soul influences, including 1970s influences." - Repetition of influences.
Done. Removed "1970s influences". Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The section overall appears to be right on the boarder with quote overuse. I does read a bit clunky if I'm honest as there are so many short quotes; for example why does "classic soul" appear in quotes? This is not praise or a view and is merely a descriptive term based on a critics perception of a particular musical genre which he likens it too.
Done. Paraphrased and copy-edited a bit. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""doesn't put up with unfaithful cads ('You Got Nerve'), mind games ('I Refuse'), self-impressed hunks ('Extra Smooth'), gossip and envy ('Loose Rap'), or physical abuse ('Never No More')." - Do the parenthesis appear in the actual quote?
Yes. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Songs

Looks OK.

Critical reception
  • "Aaliyah received very positive reviews from contemporary music critics" - again, "very". It's difficult to compare "very positive reviews" to "positive reviews". Surely, positive is positive isn't it?
The source cited refers to "excellent reviews", which the reviewer at this article's Good-article review suggested should be toned down, so I replaced it with "very positive". Perhaps "highly positive" then? Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Commercial performance
  • "The album debuted at number two on the Billboard 200, selling 187,000 copies in the week of August 4, 2001." - Bold claim, citation?
No it's cited, the citation immediately following that sentnce "...Although it was the highest sales week of Aaliyah's career,[4]". I was told in last FAC not to repeat citations, that when the citation finally does appear, it implies that it's covering everything before it. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That would be the correct advice. Is it covered by ref [4] or 55? [4], to me, would suggest that it just covers Aaliyah's highest sales week claim as there is a period after the album sales. 55 would appear to cover everything else. -- CassiantoTalk 22:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's [4] that covers the highest sales week claim and the debut/sale figure preceding it. Dan56 (talk) 22:12, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll just cite it twice to avoid any potential confusion. Dan56 (talk) 23:39, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. If any one has a cause of complain, feel free to revert; it is not that serious enough for it to effect a support. -- CassiantoTalk 01:31, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Accolades
  • OK

Legacy

  • OK

These are just minor remarks and overall, the article is in great shape. -- CassiantoTalk 10:18, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - Very well-written, informative, and complete. Seems notable enough as well. Just two minor observations: the year-end charts published by UKChartsPlus are listed at WP:BADCHARTS, and the release history table needs !scope="row"| for consistency with other tables in the article. Other than that, excellent work. SnapSnap 04:39, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Removed UK year-end, added row/scope to table. Dan56 (talk) 05:16, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Wikipedian Penguin

Support Oppose—the article has a few issues, I am afraid, ranging from prose quality to level of focus. It isn't too far, and with a little bit more work, I think we can ultimately reach a support.

Lede
  • "Aaliyah is the eponymous third and final studio album by American R&B recording artist Aaliyah, released on July 7, 2001, by Blackground Records and Virgin Records."—"eponymous" is redundant here.
Removed "eponymous"
  • "Aaliyah started working on the album in 1998 and sought to schedule its recording around her developing film career."—the second part is blurry to me. Please clarify.
Revised to "...in 1998, but rescheduled its recording around her developing film career."
  • "Upon its release, Aaliyah received very positive reviews from music critics, who praised its creative R&B production, Static's songwriting, and Aaliyah's vocal performance."—the "very" modifier does not seem useful to me. You suggested "highly" above; that would work, IMO.
Done.
  • Fused participle—"With Blackground and Virgin wanting a high charting single to increase sales..."
Would this be more correct?: "As Blackground and Virgin wanted a high charting single to increase sales..." ?
Not bad, although I would replace "as" with "because" or "since". It sounds more familiar to most readers. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Dan56 (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As of December 2009, it has sold 2.6 million copies, according to Nielsen SoundScan."—the tense and use of "as of" in conjunction with the date give the impression that the article has not been updated in a long time.
Rephrased as "By December, it had sold..."
  • "Aaliyah was released during a period of peak activity in R&B in the summer of 2001 and, since its initial reception, has been cited by critics as one of the best R&B albums of its time."—(1) I'm sure to a disinterested reader, "a period of peak activity in R&B" will be an unclear phrase. (2) Avoid references to seasons. Summer means one thing to someone who lives in the US, and something different to someone in, say, Chile.
The source citing the material being summarized here (in the "Legacy" section) refers to it as R&B's "golden age" during "the summer of 2001". I removed "summer" in the lead and replaced "period of peak activity" with "golden age", but could there be something synonymous with "summer" in the "Legacy" section? The timing seems pertinent to the period discussed, not simply 2001.
To be honest, "golden age" is even more unclear. Maybe, "Released in mid-2001, a period when contemporary R&B was popular, Aaliyah has been cited by critics as one of the best R&B albums of its time." I hope that does not modify the meaning of what you're trying to say. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Considering the definition, and the way it's used by the sources in the section this is summarizing, it's not referring to (only) popularity but artistic peak in the genre as well. "A period when..." gives off the impression that mid-2001 was the only such period. English-language readers should understand the phrase "golden age", as it's commonly used enough when discussing the arts & entertainment, and doesnt seem colloquial or too informal. The best I could come up with to rephrase but preserve the same meaning is "period of peak activity", or perhaps "released during an artistic and commercial high point in contemporary R&B"? "Mid-2001" is definitely better though. Dan56 (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should stick to "period of peak activity". Second guessing, I don't think too many people will question the phrase. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 01:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Dan56 (talk) 01:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Background
  • "After releasing her 1996 album One in a Million, Aaliyah graduated from high school the following year and recorded several songs for film soundtracks."—remove "several". It's too vague.
Done
  • Some redundancy here: "...but she postponed the recording process in order to develop an acting career"
Done.
  • "Aaliyah sought to schedule the album's recording around her film career."—likewise per lede.
Removed.
  • "which led to a starring role in the 2000 film Romeo Must Die and her accompanying soundtrack single 'Try Again'."—which led to a starring role in her accompanying soundtrack single "Try Again"?
Is this better rearranged? Dan56 (talk) 04:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Recording
  • "but they could not coordinate their respective schedules."—remove "respective".
Done.
  • "Most of Aaliyah was recorded at either Sony Studios in New York City or Sing Sing Studios in Melbourne, including "Loose Rap", which was done at both studios."—odd conjunction of "Most of Aaliyah" and "Loose Rap". I suggest adding "the songs for" before "Aaliah" or add "the track" before "Loose Rap".
Done.
  • "The latter song, written by past collaborator Missy Elliott, was originally recorded by Aaliyah in 1996 for One in a Million, but scrapped after that album's completion."—(1) "latter" refers to the last of two items, not any more. (2) there's a little too much passive voice here. I would rewrite this in active voice (She had recorded...", which brings me to my next point) (3) The tense should be past perfect since this is before the recording of the other tracks.
Done.
  • "Most of the album's lyrics were written by Static of R&B band Playa."—nit-picky, yes, but I strongly suggest active voice here as it sounds more impressive. So "Static of R&B band Playa wrote most of the album's lyrics."
Done.
  • "Static was a part of Aaliyah's close-knit circle of friends..."—that phrase is too colloquial and informal. Write it as something plain and simple. Also, "shared an infatuation with her during their respective careers" seems irrelevant and like unencyclopedic trivia.
Replaced "close-knit circle..." with "close group of friends". The latter would seem relevant to the nature of their working relationship and Static's subject matter/lyrics, providing context.
OK, then probably simply "was infatuated with her then". "During their respective careers" is unneeded. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
They were both infatuated with each other, not just him being infatuated with her, or do you mean that it is grammatically incorrect to "share an infatuation" with someone? Removed "during their..." Dan56 (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the final paragraph, there's a lot of repetitive sentence structure (overuse of "which" nonrestrictive clause).
Rephrased two sentences without "which".
Seemed worthy of a link in a music article. Is it too general a term to link?
I guess it can stay owing to the context. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:25, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Aaliyah was mastered by Bernie Grundman at his eponymous studio in Los Angeles."—I think you are confusing "eponymous" with "namesake". The former refers to something or someone after which/whom something else is named. Not vice-versa, except if it's a literary/musical work (e.g. eponymous album).
Removed "eponymous".
More to come later on. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 00:48, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changes after the comments above. Dan56 (talk) 04:59, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Change per most recent comments. Dan56 (talk) 01:05, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Music and lyircs
  • I think this is more praise than general commentary—"John Mulvey of NME finds the music to be subtle and tasteful, and lacking 'bombast and histrionics.'" "To be" is redundant as well.
Removed "to be" and "tasteful".
  • "The lyrics express fervent passion and melancholic, occasionally ominous feelings about love."—remove "fervent". It's just an unnecessary intensifier here.
Done.
  • Active voice works better here, I would think—"Its themes of heartbreak and eroticism are interspersed by subtle, lighthearted humor and witty sound effects such as comical vocal manipulation."
Like this? Dan56 (talk) 04:30, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Right. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 08:50, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes Citysearch a high quality reliable source for music journalism?
It is one of the reviews collected by Metacritic for this album, which they erroneously credited as "Spin Cycle" (the title of City Search's CD review section). Dan56 (talk) 04:49, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bob Waliszewski of Plugged In observes female empowerment songs..."—maybe "female empowerment-related songs".
Changed.
  • "Hyun Kim of Vibe asserts that the album..."—replace "the album" with "Aaliayah". Too much repetition.
Done.
  • Fused participle: "According to Joshua Clover, the more experimental tracks have Aaliyah 'push[ing] notes into strange corners of syncopation's shifty architecture.'" This one's an easy fix. Something like "According to Joshua Clover, Aaliyah 'pushes notes ... ' on the more experimental tracks." However before you make changes, read the next point...
  • Joshua Clover's review does not say anything about those tracks being experimental, much less with resolution.
The 3rd paragraph of his paragraph speaks of the album in this context: "Each structure invites you inside but won't resolve ... The knowingly titled 'We Need a Resolution' holds off resolution indefinitely, dancing back from the hook...". As for "experimental", I just substituted that for what he said about the songs that "take their time finding a shape, which is then constantly defied as she pushes...". "Experimental" seemed like a more general phrase for "shape-defying", which wouldnt be clear even in music parlance.
Considering experimental music is a specific kind of music, inferring that that is what's meant by "shape-defying" is quite a loose interpretation, almost to the point of WP:OR. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 17:56, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I'll just use the quote then, "on the more 'shape-defying' tracks". Dan56 (talk) 02:05, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Songs
  • Fused participle in second clause—" The song leaves its hook unresolved, and its music plays backwards after Timbaland's rap,[26] with a reversed loop of the vocal "where were you last night" echoing the female protagonist's sentiment."
Revised.
  • "'Loose Rap' features subtle Neptunes-styled electronica, aquatic sounds, and velvety harmonies by Aaliyah, who declares '"it ain't just rhythm and blues.'"—add a comma after "declares".
Done.
  • "... who instructs her lover on how to please her sexually and equates her erotic high to a drug high."—the second part is unclear.
It's being used in the sense of a period of euphoria; the source uses the phrase as it is, so could "high" be linked to the wiktionary page for clarity?
  • "... Aaliyah sings with an emboldened delivery over harsh guitars and aggressive synthesizers."—specifically, "harsh-sounding guitars".
Done.
  • "It developed from a conversation between Aaliyah and Static about how men try to act suave."—this took me awhile to get. Maybe "was inspired be"?
Done.
  • Fused participle—"... with the latter song drawing particularly on Detroit techno and industrial rock."
Revised.
  • "'What If' angrily threatens an unfaithful lover and by extension other men of that ilk."—woah. That's a little direct. I suggest attribution to a critic, because unless it was Aaliyah or a co-writer who said that, it's a very bold assertion. It's either that or just saying "addresses" instead of "angrily threatens". And maybe "and by extension similar men" instead of using the largely unfamiliar word "ilk".
It's not asserting that Aaliyah, but the song's narrator (which the lyrics seem to: "We'll burn you (oh), we'll cut you (oh) / We'll kill you") Yes, woah indeed. Changed it to "The song's narrator angrily..." and "...by extension similar men".
  • One concern I have is that there's quite an overlap between these two sections, in that specific tracks are discussed in the Music and lyrics section as well. Would you be open to a merge, or something to deal with this repetition?
The only overlap is citing a few songs as examples occasionally for more general aspects of the album. This already seems long enough. I used a "songs" section to distribute the information available on specific songs as recommended at MOS:ALBUM and from what I've seen at more recent FA articles like OK Computer, although not as large. Dan56 (talk) 04:49, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
More to come later on. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changes since. Dan56 (talk) 04:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm OK with the responses and will move on. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 08:50, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Something needs to be done about the general structure. The section reads a bit too list-y and repetitive. Consider connecting sentences and commenting on how one track effectively transitions to another. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 11:26, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No sources really discuss the songs in that vein, that is critics, and the interviews are pretty superficial and lack that kind of depth. Merging them with the preceding section would make it overlong and awkward (ex. thought about placing the line about "Read Between the Lines", a song with samba and Latin percussion, after "...particularly on Timbaland's songs, Latin timbres", but that song wasnt produced by him, and timbre is generally unrelated to rhythm), and there isnt enough information to move/create new song articles (MOS:ALBUM#). The only connection is track order :( Dan56 (talk) 11:49, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Bummer! Oh well, consider merging some sentences maybe, talking about two tracks in one statement? That would improve the flow. I do think something can be done, even without introducing information. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 12:12, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This was the best I could come up with. Rearranged the details so that a musical aspect of one song is followed by that of the next, and then that song's lyrical aspect being followed by that of another, and so on. Dan56 (talk) 05:18, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Critical reception
  • I'd briefly mention when the album was released as one sentence as we are not told this and this info is tucked away to the bottom in a less-than-noticeable table.
It's mentioned in the second sentence of the second paragraph in the "commercial performance" section; the opening of that section mentions the chart debut week, which also indicates the time of release; I could work it in there if you still feel it's necessary? Dan56 (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, please. Just one line. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 17:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think "described" is better than "cited" here—"He found the music's textures 'scintillating' and cited the album's 'hallmark' as..."
Revised, as part of the bottom two comments. Dan56 (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The prose is a bit too repetitive. The sentences all begin the same way (critic + magazine). Please try to vary this a little.
  • Also a problem is the density of quotations. The section is a WP:QUOTEFARM, and as a result, the flow suffers. I recommend you paraphrase and trim out some quotations and not make this section read like an aggregation of review samples.
Done, although you would be a better judge of this. Dan56 (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Better, although I think "examine" is too awkward here. It's hard usually to think of better wording than what's in the source, but perhaps you could think of something. Also, AV Club's Nathan Robin's paraphrase is a little close to the original. You can remove "in her own right" since it's vague. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 23:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How about "commended her for exploring her strengths and fantasies"? For the other one, Rabin seems to be talking about her not being "overshadowed by her collaborators" when he says "in her own right", so could I revise it as "establishes Aaliyah as a significant artist unobscured by her collaborators"? Dan56 (talk) 00:25, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That looks good. Also, in fewer words, would "establishes Aaliyah as a significant independent artist" work? Regarding "strengths and fantasies", that's good. You can implement that. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 17:47, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He cited 'We Need a Resolution' and 'U Got Nerve' as highlights and quippedly called Aaliyah 'a slave to her beats, but a proud slave'."—once again, the use of "cited" here is awkward. And "quippedly": is that word really necessary?
Christgau's honorable mention ratings feature a clever, witty remark, following by songs he cites as highlights. Referring to something, especially in praise, is one of the definitions for "cite", although not the primary one, but I dont know if one can "describe" a "hallmark"/characteristic of something. Assuming that these are grammatically correct, this book and this book use either phrase. Removed "quippedly". Dan56 (talk) 04:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I will revisit once these comments have been resolved. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 20:52, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Commercial performance
  • "However, after its completion, she and several members of her crew returning to the United States were killed in a plane crash on August 25."—sounds a bit rough. Iron this out and tighten it, so something like, "But after its completion, she and several crew members who were returning to the United States died in a plane crash on August 25."
Replaced with that. Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "More than" is usually clearer and better prose than just "over".
Replaced. Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is me nitpicking, but in the second paragraph, the use of the word "week" gets very repetitive. I understand however that this is a very difficult issue to ammend (there're hardly any synonyms for the word). If you can amend this, that would be great. If you can't, it's fine.
  • As per one of the exceptions to WP:MOSNUM's rule of thumb, comparable numbers should be expressed consistently as numerals or be spelled out. So, for example, this is inconsistent, "from number 19 to number one". It is suggested that we write out all chart positions with one consistent format.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Accolades
  • Fused participle—"Aaliyah was named the best album of 2001 by Slant Magazine, with the publication's editor Sal Cinquemani calling it..."
Separated the two parts. Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's very little sentence structure variation in this section. Please do some copy editing to improve the flow and make the prose seem refreshing.
Mixed it up a bit. (diff) Dan56 (talk) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't we just say "the 2000s" here: "In 2010, Aaliyah was named the 72nd best album of 'the aughts' by Slant Magazine."?
It could be confused as the magazine's premature look at the entire century, which might be why they used that term, but would "...best album of the 2000s decade by Slant..." sound better? Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 12:36, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
More to come later on. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 17:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Legacy
  • "Along with her budding film career, the album was a part of Aaliyah's breakout year in 2001."—need a more formal term for "budding".
"Burgeoning"? Dan56 (talk)
  • "Prior to her death, Aaliyah had planned to embark on the largest concert tour of her career in support of the album."—keep it plain: "Before her death..."
Done. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...and mostly left unreleased due to internal conflict and legal complications between the label, Aaliyah's family, and producers."—"due to" is adjectival and does not modify verbs or adjectives ("left unreleased"). You can use "because of", which can be used universally.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sentence structure gets a bit repetitive in the third paragraph.
  • I see you use present tense when talking about jouranlists' actions "The Guardian cites..." but use past tense in the critical response section. A more consistent usage throughout would be preferred.
Mixed it up slightly, and changed the tense. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think present tense is also used elsewhere, such as in the music and lyrics section. Additionally, in the legacy section, you missed this one: "The Guardian cites Aaliyah as the pinnacle of R&B's golden age at the turn of the century." —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 12:36, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
Track listing
  • Just a question: do track lists need citations?
There's nothing at MOS:ALBUM#Track listing or that Wikiproject's talk page about it. I've always assumed the citation(s) for the credits below the track listing take care of the track listing as well, since they go hand-in-hand. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Year-end charts
Done. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changes since. Dan56 (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
General
Removed links. The second mention of Erlewine's name is so far between (13 paragraphs after the 1st mention) that readers might not remember, and the WP:LASTNAME guideline is under the manual-of-style for biographies, so would leaving it be better for clarity? Dan56 (talk) 13:32, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No problem; I agree with you. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:11, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changes. Dan56 (talk) 13:32, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, if/when you're done here, would you like to comment at discussion regarding the ratings template? Dan56 (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I have done that. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 01:12, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, I'm happy and reread the article a few times, and have just relooked at the songs section. I'm happy with the improvements made and am glad to add my support. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 12:01, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support great job with the article no problems detected. Best, Jonatalk to me 20:35, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - mostly all OK (initial check already done per article talk). Sources and authors provided, just one minor issue:

  • File:Aaliyah_-_More_Than_a_Woman_sample.ogg - Generally ok, but the "purpose of use" is a bit generic. You should try to explain with 1-2 details, why the reader needs to listen to that audio to better understand the article (f.e. mention the style or certain characteristics of the song, that can't be conveyed with text alone).
  • Something odd is going on with the fair-use template for audio samples (showing "Additional" in bold twice), but that's not a problem for your FA here - OK.
  • Other images are OK (fair-use as infobox image, 2 images PD-own). GermanJoe (talk) 08:51, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Dan56 (talk) 08:59, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That was quick :), thanks. Status updated. GermanJoe (talk) 09:04, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 18:00, 6 March 2013 (UTC) [6].[reply]

Hurricane Debbie (1961)

Nominator(s): Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricane Debbie in 1961 was one of the most powerful storms to impact Ireland on record. It brought destructive winds in excess of 100 mph to western parts of the country, damaging or destroying many homes and leaving thousands without power. Across the British Isles, 18 people lost their lives and damage exceeded US$50 million. I believe this article qualifies for featured candidate as I have exhausted both free and paid services to obtain the most comprehensive account of this particular hurricane. I hope you all enjoy reading this article as much as I enjoyed writing it! Cheers, Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support, with the caveat that I reviewed it for GA. That being said, here are some last comments.

  • "during September" - in the opening sentence, should that be changed to "in September"?
  • "however, operationally," - remove one of these adverbs.
  • "Once clear of the islands, data on the storm became sparse and it is uncertain what took place with the storm over the following several days as it tracked west-northwestward and later northward." - a comma would be lovely somewhere in here, and maybe change one of the "storm" to "Debbie"
  • "Maintaining this intensity for over a day" - I think "this" should be something like "its peak", or something, given it's the start of a new paragraph.
  • Probably self-explanatory, but I think you should clarify somewhere, perhaps as a note, that all damage totals are in that 1961's currency.
  • "only a handful of which were serious" - handful? :/
  • I think the specifics on the fatalities should be in the same paragraph where you mention the death total.
  • "30,000 trees were felled" - that verb phrasing seems weird to me, but IDK.
  • UK paragraph is pretty long. Perhaps split into two?

That's it. Overall, looks pretty good. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Made all the corrections. Thanks for the review Hink! Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Any comments by the nominator on these? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for not getting to this earlier. I linked corn to maize since that's the intended link and delinked a few instances of Belmullet and Norway. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, I'm aware that in Ireland "corn" often refers to the oats, and I don't have access to the source, so I just wanted to be sure that there wasn't a misunderstanding here Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

Comments

  • HURDAT is not good enough to prove that Debby made landfall in Ireland, since the NOAA report says that Debby skirted around the west coast of Ireland. I also note that the supposed point of landfall is less than 2 km away from the sea, which would suggest to me that it didnt make landfall and just passed near the island.Jason Rees (talk) 18:21, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support – I don't like supporting articles without bringing up a few comments, but I can't find anything worth mentioning. Nice work. :\ TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk) 00:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Nice job on totally revamping an article that was originally an idea of mine.--12george1 (talk) 20:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by SandyGeorgia

Oppose. Am I correct in assuming that the previous three supports are from hurricane editors? Independent review is needed.

  1. Hurricane Debbie was one of the most powerful cyclones to strike Ireland in September on record.
    Opening sentence, I'm left wondering why the most powerful "in September" ... what is special about September?
    Shouldn't "on record" be after "most powerful cyclones"? Unsure ...
    Changed order, but I think the fact that it's the strongest storm to hit a country in a particular month is pretty notable. I'm sure we'd have the same if we had a record storm in April in the US. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, but it reads ... funny. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Tracking generally westward, the system eventually moved off the coast of Senegal on September 5 ...
    What does "eventually" add here? Redundant?
    This was done. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  3. See here and here for discussions of the overuse of however; not all of them used here seem necessary.
    It's used once now in the whole article. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Unsettled weather associated with the storm resulted in a plane crash that killed 60 people in the islands during this time.
    What does "during this time" add? Please screen for redundant prose.
    CB removed it. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Once clear of the islands, data on the storm became sparse, and it is uncertain what took place with Debbie over the following several days as it tracked west-northwestward and later northward.
    Once clear of the islands, the storm tracked west-northwestward and later northward, but other data for several days is sparse ??? "With Debbie" seems repetitive, perhaps a different construction like this can be used to solve that.
    Changed. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Regardless of which took place, the system deepened as it neared the British Isles, ...
    What does "regardless of which took place" add? Redundant.
    To highlight the uncertainty whether it was tropical or not. I personally feel it adds value. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Throughout the country, 12 people lost their lives in relation to Debbie and damage was estimated at US$40–50 million.
    What does "Throughout the country" add? "To Debbie"? Damage was estimated at US$40–50 million and 12 people died.
    To emphasize Ireland the country, not just the island. I changed the other bit. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is only the lead; prose review is needed ... mostly for redundancy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:44, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Five days, no response from nominator-- unwatching. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:56, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair to the nominator, he and others appear to have dealt with some of your issues but i think he is currently busy in real life dealing with his university stuff. I will double check your comments against the article later.Jason Rees (talk) 23:38, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone through the article a few times and made some changes, namely condensing and removing redundancies. Please let me know if there are still issues with the article. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 16:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just noting here that I have contacted Sandy on her talk page to make sure that it's known I've addressed the issues despite the page unwatch. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:04, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I've struck my oppose because I don't have time for further review, but did see that extevensive prose changes have been made. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK (PD NOAA, own work, NASA). Sources and authors provided. GermanJoe (talk) 09:54, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quick Comment – Just wondering, any reason why you have travelled instead of traveled, as it appears other words like 'center' are written in American-spelling. TheAustinMan(Talk·Works) 00:39, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Changed all instances of 'center' to 'centre' (except for proper names) Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:44, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comments

  • I should have asked for a spotcheck of sources earlier in this FAC's existence so have performed it myself:
    • FN03: no issues
    • FN09a: no issues
    • FN17b: no issues
    • FN24: no issues
  • Query: following up on TheAustinMan's comment, is it the convention that hurricane articles are written in AmEng, even when the storm damages the British Isles? Something to do with them being Atlantic hurricanes? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:38, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I dont think there is such a convention, i believe it just comes down to what the person writing the article is used too.Jason Rees (talk) 01:59, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Mmm. I can't see a comparable FA of an Atlantic hurricane that struck the British Isles, so there seems to be no precedent. ENGVAR's guideline of using the form of English most closely related to the subject might come into play, though I suppose some might question whether a storm can have 'strong national ties'... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:23, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Nice read. Meets criteria.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment "the most powerful cyclone on record to strike Ireland in September" sounds strange. Was there a more powerful cyclone in another month? Is September known for it's powerful cyclones? Why is the month important here? Mattximus (talk) 22:41, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 4 March 2013 (UTC) [7].[reply]

British military intervention in the Sierra Leone Civil War

Nominator(s): HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This article, like my previous nomination, is the result of a microgrant from Wikimeda UK, who kindly purchased most of the books used in researching these articles. For nearly ten years, the West refused to get involved in the brutal and incredibly bloody civil war in Sierra Leone, until the rebels reneged on a peace agreement that everybody had hoped meant the end of the war. With the UN peacekeeping force on the brink of collapse in May 2000, the United Kingdom sent an entire battalion of paratroopers and its largest naval task force assembled since the Falklands War, setting in motion a chain of events that finally brought the war to an end.

The article has had a successful GA review and MilHist A-class review, and there might be a few relatively minor issues, but I'm reasonably confident that if it isn't quite at FA standard, it's very close. It's a relatively long article (c. 7,000 words), but I hope people will read it and find it interesting. Thanks, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

SchroCat

Comments by SchroCat
Lead

  • Pipe Sierra Leone Army to Republic of Sierra Leone Armed Forces?
    • Specifically contra-indicated by WP:R2D, and the SLA could sustain an article of its own if somebody were to create one.
  • Should that be "Sierra Leonean army"?
    • It should be, yes, just like it should be "Sierra Leonean Civil War", but both are the correct proper nouns.

An excellent article in a topic and area of the world often overlooked. Only a couple of minor points, which struck me, but if you're happy with the way you have them I'm not going to argue. Well done on this: it may be long, but it's a very comprehensive and tightly put together article. – SchroCat (talk) 09:09, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Very nice article indeed. - SchroCat (talk) 19:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

- spotchecks not done

  • Could we flip the order of general and specific refs?
    • Someone raised this at my last FAC and I don't see the problem, but if the current format really bugs people, I suppose I wouldn't fight over it.
  • FN10, 14, 30: page formatting
    • All fixed.
  • FN56: which Connaughton?
    • 2002.
  • FN67, 99: punctuation
    • Fixed.
  • Abrahamsen: check authors
    • Don't know what happened there.
  • Connaughton 2002: missing location and publisher. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dank

Comments

  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 02:15, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • But see User_talk:Dank#However. - Dank (push to talk) 00:18, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've just reviewed the nom's edits since I copyedited. I can't support, although it's not bad enough to oppose. If a copy editor wants to give it a look and ping me about anything, ping away. - Dank (push to talk) 13:24, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dan, you're a great copy-editor and I always appreciate your help with my articles, but not all the edits you made here were an improvement. I know you're trying to solve issues with readability and ambiguity, but some of your edits replaced one issue with another or introduced inaccuracies. Can we meet in the middle somewhere? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:55, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't know, Harry, I'm sick today (which isn't helping my mood), I'll think about it tomorrow. - Dank (push to talk) 03:06, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'll stay in the "neutral" column. When you reverted some of my changes, you reinstated a number of things that we don't usually allow at FAC, so I can't support, but you've got two supports already so you should be fine. The delegates and many reviewers will spot the problems and help out. I apologize, I've got two huge projects this month and I'm taking a break from reviewing and copyediting. - Dank (push to talk) 10:56, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I guess we're on our own here, Harry. I've made the following edits, let me know what doesn't work for you.
  • "The SLA had been confined to barracks and had handed over most of its weapons in accordance with the Lomé Agreement, which led foreign diplomats in the country to estimate ...": "which" dangles, and the causation isn't clear. I went with: "After the SLA had been confined to barracks and had handed over most of its weapons in accordance with the Lomé Agreement, foreign diplomats in the country estimated ...". "After" conveys approximately the right sense and is more common at FAC for this usage.
    • My problem with this is that it seems to suggest that the RUF began their advance, then the SLA handed in it weapons, and that the "within a week" estimate is by the way. What I'm trying to convey is that the RUF were advancing and the SLA had already been disarmed sow ere incapable of stopping the RUF, and that is what prompted diplomats to estimate that the RUF could be in Freetown within a week. -HJM
  • "The ARG en route, the paras": You haven't defined what a "para" is, and "The ARG en route" is called an "absolute construction"; like a WP:PLUSING construction, it's something that makes copyeditors stop and wonder if it might not be better to say explicitly what the connection is between that phrase and the rest of the sentence. I reverted back to my version.
    • That they were paratroopers or members of the Parachute Regiment isn't that important, so that can be changed to "soldiers" or similar; the parentheses suggest to me that they were able to deploy quickly because they were paratroopers rather than because they knew the ARG would be there shortly. -HJM
    • I really don't get the problem with "the ARG en-route". I think it's quite a common construction in British English and it makes perfect sense to me. -HJM
  • "they were picked up by RAF Chinook and flown to Freetown": Constructions like "by helicopter" have more of the sense of an adverbial phrase than a noun phrase. That is, "She left by 4:15 to Paddington" is silly compared with "She left on the 4:15 to Paddington", and different people have different triggers for when it starts sounding silly; the more specific you are after "by", the sillier it gets. To be safe, let's treat it as a noun phrase, and while I'm here, let's get rid of the passive voice, too: "An RAF Chinook picked them up and flew them to Freetown".
    • I'm not wild about that but the meaning is the same so I can live with it. -HJM
  • This reversion re-introduces a lot of problems, Harry:
    • "the only force" seems to be applied to a compound subject (i.e. plural in sense);
      • Precisely. The SLA joined forces with the "Unholy Alliance" and they effectively fought as a single force. -HJM
    • "however";
      • "However" isn't a dirty word; there are legitimate uses for it, and I think he wholesale removal of any individual word is something that should be discouraged. I can live with your re-write, but I preferred it the other way. -HJM
    • "in order" (twice, in close proximity);
      • You seem to have got both instances of "in order"; thanks -HJM
    • conciseness ("allowing re-arming of the SLA" already implies that it needed to be re-armed to effective, so you didn't need to say that separately ... consider using my "To restructure the SLA and allow it to re-arm"): the em-dash isn't wrong, but it adds emphasis that doesn't accomplish anything that I can see;
      • I'm happy enough with your version of this -HJM
    • and the "which" bit is tricky ... it appears to some to be nonrestrictive, but it's actually restrictive, so it needs "that" and no comma.
      • And you've got this as well.

Your best bet here might be to revert back to my version and then change only the things that you're sure need changing ... that will make it easier for me to see what you're saying. - Dank (push to talk) 15:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D

Support I commented on this article's A class review, and think that the FA criteria are also met. Nick-D (talk) 10:38, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

by FunkMonk (talk) 07:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Here's a far better map for the infobox:[8]
    • What's better about it?
The resolution. FunkMonk (talk) 18:57, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil

Support - Very impressive work. Read half during the week, the rest tonight. My interest was held through-out, though its a long page it does not go off topic and is consistently engaging. Ceoil (talk) 21:56, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:26, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comments

Just one sticking point for me, Harry: I've gathered that Operation Palliser was the code name for the large-scale intervention, especially since Operation Palliser redirects to this article, but the connection could be made clearer. The opening reads "The United Kingdom began a military intervention in Sierra Leone in May 2000. Although small numbers of British personnel had been previously deployed, Operation Palliser was the first large-scale intervention by British forces during the Sierra Leone Civil War." I think it'd help to alter this to "The United Kingdom began a military intervention in Sierra Leone in May 2000 under the code name Operation Palliser. Although small numbers of British personnel had been previously deployed, this was the first large-scale intervention by British forces during the Sierra Leone Civil War." or something along similar lines. Further, the first time Palliser is mentioned in the main body is in a section heading. I think we should be told before that point that the name of the operation was Palliser, with a citation. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:00, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've got this for the most part. I've added an explicit mention of the codename in the "Operation Palliser" section, and suppose I could shoehorn a mention of the codename in earlier in the body, but I don't think it would work very well. "Palliser" was the codename for the original deployment (ostensibly for an evacuation), but not the entire intervention (which is why I redirected it to this article). I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a section heading being the first mention of a codename—the same is true for the sections on Operation Khukri and Operation Barras. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:11, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's all fine now, tks Harry. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:11, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 4 March 2013 (UTC) [11].[reply]

Kareena Kapoor

Kareena Kapoor Khan is an Indian actress who appears in Bollywood films. In July 2008, the article reached a GA status, and subsequently went on to have an unsuccessful FAC. Since then, a lot of hard work has gone into improving the article and bringing it to the place it is today. Now, I think it meets the FA criteria. Please leave your comments, and I'll be more than happy to address any of them. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 02:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comments

TIs is mostly mostly very good, but a few quibbles.

  • Rs. 840 million—please use lakhs and crores, else Indians like me will need to do some mental math to understand. Non-Indians have the millions of dollars right next to it anyway.
Done
  • since we have an abundance of free photos, why not use more? Around one for every sub-section would be nice. Try to add relevant captions, like about her "trademark" lips in Pubic image section.
To be honest, adding "around one [image] for every sub-section" would unnecessarily increase the size of the article; I've only added images that help contribute to the article in some way. For example, the image of Kapoor with her mother and sister in the "Early life and background" section shows that the two women have played pivotal roles in her life. And this has been confirmed by Kapoor in several of her interviews. (I've added a new image in the "Public image and character" section discussing her trademark lips.)
  • surprised there's no mention of her size zero and the ensuing controversy.
There wasn't really a so-called "controversy" about size zero. A lot was written about it by the media but other than that nothing much. Maybe we could say something like: "Kapoor's off-screen life has been subject to wide media coverage in India with frequent press coverage of her weight and diet."
  • "would show more a more thoughtful"—huh?
I took that from the source without realizing the mistake they made. Fixed it.
  • golden-hearted prostitute—I've heard of a hooker with a heart of gold, but is golden-hearted prostitute a common/acceptable phrase?
The description of her character in Chameli is taken from here; it is pretty much the same thing as "hooker with a heart of gold".
  • subject of considerable critical analysis—source doesn't back this, and only talks of intense tabloid interest.
The source states: "While her choice of movies continues to range from interesting to objectionable, Kareena has mastered the art of balancing blockbusters with bloopers". In a way, it is critically analysed, but I'll try finding another source. (A new source was added as well as another one which already exists within the article.)
  • total film count? Worth adding in the lead?
  • over linking—villain, leading lady, Bangladeshi, Netherlands etc. please review throughout, and just these.
IMO, I really don't think we need to add her total film count; the same might apply to the over linking part. I agree that some of the terms like 'leading lady' or 'villain' do not need to be linked but others like 'Netherlands', etc do.
We can't always say "performing with several Bollywood contemporaries"; it might get a bit too repetitive. As you can see that the section combines both (listing actors' names as well as several Bollywood stars).
Thank you for your comments. If possible I would recommend you to get a username—not only will this benefit me but you as well. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 03:58, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Just a few initial comments now, more to come.
  • In the lead, you should probably say "lesser-publicised independent films".
Done
  • "Her melodrama Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham.... What do you mean by "her melodrama"?
Tweaked
  • In the lead, Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham is mentioned as her "greatest" commercial success to date. I don't think "greatest" is the right word to use. Also, I don't see the point of mentioning that, because it was neither her first commercial success nor her biggest.
Tweaked. I agree that K3G wasn't her "first commercial success" but the reason why it is mentioned is because it was her first "worldwide" success. Also, prior to 3I, K3G was still her biggest success to date.
  • The quote in the second line of the career section, "it was probably destined that I was not to be in the film. After all, it was a launch for his son. The whole focus was on the boy. Now I am glad I did not do the movie" would sound better if it were trimmed and written as part of the sentence.
Tweaked; removed the last part of the quote.
  • In "...but these negative reviews motivated her to improve as an actress by accepting more demanding roles." can be changed to "...but these negative reviews motivated her to accept more demanding roles".
Done
  • The sentence " The film depicts an online robbery and the Mumbai underworld in which her character, Neha Mehra, becomes involved." is confusing. What does she get involved in? The robbery or the underworld?
Tweaked
  • "Omkara was embraced by critics...", not sure if "embraced" is the right word in this context for a dictionary.
Tweaked
  • "Following Omkara Kapoor stopped acting for a short time.." does not sound right. How about "she took a short break" etc.
Done
Removed—now that I think of it, it was kind of redundant. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 16:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A few quick style comments Support
  • I see very many hacked up modified quotes. For example:
"were never officially divorced ... [but] ... liv[ed] separately."
"[I]n the best performance of her career so far, [Kapoor] leads Mahi's character through the murky labyrinth of ambition, rivalry and self-destructive tricks of survival in the rat race. Though her character is inconsistent [she] furnishes ... [it] with a rare vulnerability and an exceptional inner life"
I think the second one is missing some ... before the [she], but why do this as opposed to either paraphrasing or quoting directly? It may look to the reader that you are trying to bend the quotes to your liking.
One of the main reasons why I "hacked up" quotes was because they were too long. I've made some adjustments (1st quote: Removing the modifications and sourcing it like a regular sentence; 2nd quote: Paraphrasing it and only quoting the last part.)
Good, but there are several others. Please scan the article for more places where the quotes can be simplified. BollyJeff | talk 16:30, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've simplified wherever it's needed. Let me know if you have any more concerns! -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 02:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here is one more: "[Despite having] the worst success ratio among her contemporaries [...] Kapoor is effortlessly honest in her performances". The first and second parts are 6 paragraphs apart (not necessarily related), and the first two words are yours. Looks like it could be a form of cherrypicking, original research, or synthesis. BollyJeff | talk 02:07, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rewrote and tweaked it. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 04:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article seems to have a more liberal use of parenthesis in the text in places where I normally see commas. Intentional?
While copy-editing the article, User:Miniapolis felt that using parentheses would break up long sentences and hopefully make them easier to follow. I thought that made sense! :) -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 16:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I also felt in some instances the parenthesis could be removed. Indeed I myself did so in one instance. Minniapolis is a very seasoned copy-editors, so I think we can stick to his/her suggestion unless someone objects.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:12, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Following the release of Heroine, Kapoor married Khan on 16 October 2012" There are some other Khans mentioned in this section, but not Saif Ali Khan (except in the heading). His name should definitely be spelled out fully in this spot.
Done -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 04:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This may seem picky, but there are only 3 quotations that have the punctuation inside the quote vs around 40 that have it outside. According to the rules in MOS:LQ, it is likely that there should be more than just 3 of the former.
Done -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 04:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • All of the awards and nominations after 3 idiots are not covered by the source; I did not check the awards prior to that date. Maybe it is best not to rely on one source for all the awards. This link may help though: newer BH BollyJeff | talk 15:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That was the old BH link and I didn't realize that it didn't cover the newer awards/nominations. I have used the newer BH link to source all her new awards/nominations. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 02:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
More comments Support
The article is extremely interesting to read, but I am nitpicking on the prose, as it has to be of an excellent standard.
  • "Kapoor was initially cast to make her debut" ... doesn't sound too encyclopedic. Also, the quote (as mentioned in the previous set of comments) still doesn't sound interesting. Maybe paraphrasing would help.
Tweaked. As for the quote, I've completely removed it and paraphrased it.
  • In the description of Refugee, the part "known simply as Refugee" is redundant. Later, you can write "...girl who falls in love with Bachchan's character".
Done
  • For Mujhe Kuch Kehna Hai, instead of writing " A review of her performance in The Hindu noted that " you can simply say "The Hindu noted that..."
Done
  • In the first paragraph of the critical acclaim section, "However, when the director again approached her a year later she agreed to do the film; she now viewed it as an opportunity to demonstrate her acting range" can be changed to "However, when Mishra approached her for the second time, she agreed; she viewed it as an opportunity to demonstrate her acting range".
Done
  • In the same paragraph there is a line that says "...study the dress and mannerisms of sex workers". What do you mean by "study the dress"?
Tweaked
  • Same paragraph, "another reviewer". Who?
Tweaked
  • A few paragraphs later, it should be "protagonist of the 2005 drama Bewafaa" and not "in ... Bewafaa".
Done
  • The review by Nikhat Kazmi for Bewafaa has no quotation marks.
That's because we have paraphrased the quote and hence it doesn't require quotation marks.
  • Last line of the same paragraph, " Kapoor's performance was generally enjoyed by critics". Replace "enjoyed" with "well received".
Done
  • In the next paragraph, what do you mean by "portrayed the Desdemona character"?
Tweaked
  • " It premiered at the 2006 Cannes Film Festival, and was also selected for screening at the Cairo International Film Festival" ==> " It premiered at the 2006 Cannes Film Festival, and was screened at the Cairo International Film Festival".
Done
  • "While shooting Jab We Met, Kapoor and Shahid ended their three-year relationship". Change to "While filming for Jab We..... three-year long relationship"
Done
  • "During this period, speculation began to surface that she was dating actor Saif Ali Khan" ==> "During this period, there was speculation in the media that she was dating...".
Done
  • A paragraph later, "Set in Los Angeles, it was the first Indian film in history to be shot at Universal Studios and featured cameo appearances by Hollywood actors". The "in history" is redundant here.
Done
  • Same paragraph, "... a woman under house arrest after discovering her husband is a terrorist". Sounds confusing. Needs to be re-worded.
Tweaked
  • Next paragraph, "On acting with Khan, Kapoor revealed that it was "a dream come true" and stated that her journey as an actress was "finally complete"". This sounds like a fan gushing about a star. I don't see any point in including this.
Removed; you do make a valid point.
  • "Kapoor had further success in 2011 as love interest for Salman Khan in the romantic drama Bodyguard". Missing "the" before love interest. And should be "...of Salman Khan's character"
Done
  • Same paragraph. What do you mean by the "most popular film of the year"? Unclear.
It means that it was the highest-grossing film of the year in India. If you take a look at the article, it always says "highest-grossing", "one of the highest-grossing", etc. To change it up a bit, I decided to use the "most popular film of the year".
I understand that you did that to avoid being monotonous. But the term "popular" is vague. How and with whom was it popular? --smarojit (buzz me) 06:37, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Tweaked; now says India's highest-earning film of the year. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 01:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "2012-present" section begins with "she followed it". As it is the beginning of a new section, drop the "she" and change the line.
Done
  • "Witty young woman" has been used to describe her character in both Yuva and Ek Main Aur Ekk Tu. Can be modified.
Done
  • The revenue of Ek Main Aur Ekk Tu is unsourced.
I'm unable to find the source that I originally used from BOI for its revenue. However, I found a new source and have modified it to that.
  • "Heroine, a drama revolving around the Bollywood film industry through Kapoor's viewpoint as Mahi Arora, a faded star." Not a good sentence. How about "...the Bollywood film industry; Kapoor was cast as Mahi Arora, a fading star". Or maybe something better.
Tweaked
  • "Kapoor will focus on familiarizing herself with up-to-date global affair issues and watching several news documentaries" ==> "Kapoor will familiarise herself with the latest global affairs and watch several news documentaries".
Done
As of now, that's about it. --smarojit (buzz me) 17:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the kind works Smaro! I really appreciate you taking the time in giving me your inputs! :) -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 23:11, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on footnote style There are discrepancies. I see in some newspaper sources, you have mentioned the name of the publisher, while in others you have not. The name of publisher should be present either in all newspaper footnotes, or none (obviously mentioning in none is the easier option). Rediff.com, a website, has not been italicised, but indiatimes, another website, has been italicised (I think most of the websites are not in italics, which is a god style to follow consistently). CNN-IBN, a V channel, should not be italicised. I think Mid Day name should not use the particular style (MiD DAY) of its logo, just mention as Mid Day.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I did list the publishers for all newspaper sources befores but User:Legolas2186 mentioned that it wasn't important to add well-known publishers for some newspaper sources. In the case of websites, they shouldn't be italicised; Rediff.com is a website; the reason why I italicised Indiatimes was because I thought it was a newspaper. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 01:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
According to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting#Italic_face, websites may or may not be italicised, and magzine websites are usually italicised. However, what I have seen so far is it is more important to maintain consistency within a given article. Regarding publishers, again, consistency within a given article is more important, since publisher parameter is optional. In the FARC of Kolkata, SandyGeorgia pointed out this. Thi apies for location as well. Also, "well-known"ness may differ among readers. So, consistency is perhaps more important.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. To maintain consistency: a) Rm the publisher parameter for all newspaper sources, b) Left all websites non-italicised, and c) All magazine websites/journals are italicised. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 03:32, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support as a contributor to the article. I've long believed it is FA standard and seems to have been improved further. I'd use File:Kapoor at Gitanjali launch2.jpg as the main image though.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Random spotchecking

  • Sentence "According to Kapoor, the name "Kareena" was derived from the book Anna Karenina, which her mother read while she was pregnant with her." Source [12] verifies this; however, source does not indicate this was said by Kareena herself. Also, the sentence seems a copy-paste from the source, it needs to be tweaked.
Replaced back to the original source where Kapoor (herself) says that her name was derived from the book Anna Karenina. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 20:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...on her mother's side she is Sindhi". Source verifies.
  • "... inspired by the films of Bollywood actresses Nargis and Meena Kumari.". Source verifies.
  • "her mother, who worked at several jobs to support her daughters until Karisma debuted..." Source says, "Mum was always doing something, she single-handedly brought us up. She has a real estate business apart from other small businesses.". I would accept that.
  • "...she studied commerce for two years at Mithibai College in Vile Parle (Mumbai), but later confessed that she only studied there because it was close to her family." Source verifies. The word "home' is probably better than 'family" in this case.
Done -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 20:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...Several days into the filming, however, she abandoned the project; Kapoor later explained that she had benefited by not doing the film since more prominence was given to the director's son". source verifies this.

Will continue later.--Dwaipayan (talk) 13:52, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing random spotchecks

  • Taran Adarsh quote n Refugee. Source checks out.
  • "...drama Mujhe Kucch Kehna Hai, which became one of the highest-earning films of the year." Source lists the film at 9th position in 25 top-earners. So, although the statement in article is true, perhaps some softer statement would be more suitable, such as ,"...became a hit'.
Tweaked -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 21:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... with some critics noting a distinct progression from her earlier roles.' (Regarding Fida). Source checks out.
  • "...the BBC describing her as "a pure natural". Source checks out.
  • "While shooting for Jab We Met, Kapoor and Shahid ended their three-year relationship." Source checks out.
  • "...the tantalisingly seductive prostitute, Rosie...". Copied from here. However, it is just a few words, so could be acceptable. At best, this can be put within a quotation, and attributed to the source.
Sourced -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 21:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Talaash eventually emerged as an international success with revenues of 174 crore (US$31.67 million)". Source checks out.
  • "...she would be launching her own line of clothing, becoming the first Indian actress to do so" Source checks out.
  • "... the book was well received by critics selling 10,000 copies within its first twenty days" the numbers are verified. Well-received by the critics may be acceptable, too.
  • "... Kapoor has gained a reputation for discussing her public and private life with no reservations". this source verifies.
So does the other source which is also used to support that claim. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 21:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Her personality has been open to debate and criticism" Source verifies in detail.
  • "she later explained that her honesty and openness was often perceived by the media as arrogance." In the source, she mentions her honesty and openness, but I failed to see that she mentioned her straightforwardness is perceived as arrogance by media.
She explains: "Misquotes and misunderstandings were unfortunate consequences of my attitude, especially when I first entered the film industry [...] But it was a case of forthrightness being misunderstood for a cheeky attitude". -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 21:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kapoor was recognized for her versatility" Sources verify.

So, overall, spotchecks seem to reveal consistent verification, with only minor problem in a very few instances. Copyvio check by this tool revealed statistically insignificant problem. So far, so good.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support - A few issues with mechanics and style as pointed out above - but once these are resolved I would support it as an FA. I would take heed of Dwai's comments - as usual they are right on target. Great job all. -Classicfilms (talk) 15:21, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on lead

  • " During her career Kapoor has been noted for her performances in a range of film genres, from contemporary romantic dramas to comedies, period films to major Bollywood productions and lesser-publicisedindependent films". I am not sure if this sentence is a good sentence. I tend to prefer "During her career Kapoor has been noted for her performances in a range of film genres, from contemporary romantic dramas, comedies, period films to major Bollywood productions and lesser-publicisedindependent films." (the to has been removed). Again, I am not sure about this. Any comment from anyone else?
  • "Kapoor faced the media spotlight at a young age but did not make her acting debut until the 2000 film Refugee.". This construction also does not sound very good, the "but did not make" part. So, althogh the family had actors, is she supposed to debut at an earlier age? Plus, the overall negative construction does not sound too good.
  • "In addition to film acting, Kapoor is a stage performer and has launched her own clothing line (in association with retail chain Globus). She is known for being publicly outspoken and assertive, and is recognized for her contributions to the film industry though her fashion style and film roles (both of which have made her a trend-setter for young women).". Do we really need those parentheses?--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've made some adjustments to the lead including the ones you pointed out Dwaipayanc. Let me know what you think! -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 02:19, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • one more comment on the lead. The lead says, " Kapoor received media attention from a young age.". But the early life section does not mention the media attention that she got from a young age. I think this needs to be changed in the lead. may be, "...exposed to films from a young age" or something like this? This fits with her being born in the filmy family. --Dwaipayan (talk) 02:27, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the early life section does not mention the media attention; it is just intended to show how she became interested in acting. However, as a child she used to attend award ceremonies with her family and would also accompany her sister on-set during filming (mentioned in the public image section) - this introduced her to the media from a young age. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 04:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so according to your explanation here, Kapoor was introduced to the media (films, awards etc) world at a young age; but that does not mean media was attentive of her when she was young. So, the article still does not mention that she received media attention from a young age. Either that needs to be changed in the lead, or, info on media's attention/coverage of a young Kareena should be added.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I've removed the bit about her receiving media attention from a young age. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 20:41, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Since I copyedited the article in September 2012 it's not my place to assess the prose, but I believe this article meets WP:FA Criteria; it's comprehensive, well-sourced, neutral, stable and properly formatted. Images have alt text and acceptable copyright status. It may be a bit too long for its subject, but that's a judgment call. Miniapolis 02:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: This is very well written and well sourced. I'm no expert in Bollywood, but have read a few arts biographies, so here goes. I have a few thoughts about the prose, some nit-picky.

  • A colon over a semicolon works better here: "During her career, Kapoor has received six Filmfare Awards and has been noted for her performances in a range of film genres; from contemporary romantic dramas, comedies, period films to major Bollywood productions and lesser-publicised independent films."
Done
  • "Born into a family where her parents, Randhir Kapoor and Babita, and elder sister Karisma were actors, Kapoor faced the media spotlight at a young age..." – (1) "where" should be "in which". Not a spatial relationship. (20 "faced the media spotlight" seems like a colloquial expression. Try something plain and formal, like "received media attention".
Done
There's a problem with the current sentence—"Born into a family in which her parents, Randhir Kapoor and Babita, and elder sister Karisma were actors, Kapoor's career began with the 2000 war drama Refugee."—it makes it seem that her career was what was born into the family, not her herself. That, and that the two ideas are very loosely relation, thus lacking strong coherence. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 20:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Taking into account the suggestions you made, I decided to re-write the lead. Please let me know what you think! -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 03:48, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • One general issue from reading the lead I've found is the odd logical flow. Connect only related ideas using conjunctions. As a result, I find these sentences awkward:
  • "Her film career began with the 2000 war drama Refugee and she subsequently featured in the melodrama Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham..., which became India's highest-grossing film in the overseas market in 2001 and one of her biggest commercial successes to date." – the way of connecting the inital idea with the subsequent one with "and she" is odd sounding. I think we may need to break this up with a semicolon: "Her film career began with the 2000 war drama Refugee, after which she featured in the melodrama Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham...; the latter was India's highest-grossing film in the overseas market in 2001 and one of Kapoor's biggest commercial successes to date." Also note that I changed that I changed "became" to "was"; otherwise, the we could interpret that the film was India's highest-grossing one from 2001 until today, but it was only that in 2001.
Done
  • "Her portrayal of a sex worker in Chameli (2004) proved to be the turning point in her career, and she was later noted for her performances in the critically acclaimed films Dev (2004) and Omkara (2006)." – Likewise regarding "and she". It's poor idea integration IMO. This would seem better as one, single, flowing idea. So try something like this: "She portrayed a sex worker in Chameli (2004), which proved to be the turning point in her career, and was noted for her performances in the critically acclaimed films Dev (2004) and Omkara (2006)." And since this sentence now begins with "She", the subsequent one cannot, so "Kapoor" probably.
Done
  • "Her parents reconciled in October 2007[12] and Kapoor explained that they were never officially divorced but lived separately." – more related ideas, but the conjunction doesn't flow well. Just break it up with a semicolon.
Done
  • There's also a bit of borderline weasel wording, as we aren't told who makes assertions such as, "She is known for being publicly outspoken and assertive, and is recognized for her contributions to the film industry though her fashion style and film roles both of which have made her a trend-setter for young women." Anything simple to not make these ideas seem so vague. By whom? Critics, authors, the public, heck fans?
Reworded; it now says "She is known in the Indian media for being publicly outspoken and assertive...". I've left the rest of the sentence the way it is. Let me know what you think!
Much better. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 12:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've found the "went on to [verb]" wording a little fluffy and never understood why it couldn't simply be written as the infinitive conjugated in past tense. So instead of "went on to play", why not just "played"?
Done
  • "Since 2007, Kapoor has been in a relationship with actor Saif Ali Khan whom she married in October 2012." – need a comma after "Khan", since it's a nonrestrictive clause.
Done
  • As a general note, I like the lead: it's concise, solid and clear, and just what's expected from an overview.
  • A few obvious ideas, such as "Born in Mumbai, India, on 21 September 1980 into the Kapoor film family, Kapoor is the younger daughter of actors Randhir Kapoor and Babita (née Shivdasani)". Of course she's born into the Kapoor family! If you want to say she was born into a film family, just say "a film family". It's less repetitious too.
Done
  • I'm not sure how it is done in Indian English, so forgive my ignorance, but I thought "grand-daughter" and "film-maker" had no hyphens and were altogether single words. They might be interchangeable, so I'm not sure.
Initially, I had it spelled as "granddaughter" and "filmmaker"; however, spell check on my computer stated that it was incorrect. TBH, I don't even know what the correct spelling is.
If it's the wiki spell checker, it is bad. It seems to have rather limited vocabulary and doesn't accommodate for other dialects. I'm sure the way you had it spelled is correct. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 12:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changed it back to granddaughter and filmmaker. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 03:43, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After her parents' separation she was raised in Lokhandwala by her mother, who worked at several jobs to support her daughters until Karisma debuted as an actress in 1991." – the "After her parents' separation" is a bit repetitive following the previous sentence. Begin with a simple "She was then raised...".
Done
  • "Asked about her relationship with her father, Kapoor remarked 'My father is ... an important factor in my life. [Al]though we did not see him often in our initial years, we are a family now.'" – need a comma after "remarked".
Done
  • Are ellipses in brackets or no brackets when omitting material from a quotation? The latter is recommended per MOS:QUOTE, but either or is fine as long as you use it consistently.
According to MOS:QUOTE, we should use ellipses when omitting material from a quotation. I've added them to remain consistent!

These are general observations from the lead and Early life sections. Bravo on your work; it's well organized and structured, with useful images. What's needed is a fine-tooth comb with which to go over the article, some tweaks and polishing, and we've got the ideal Bollywood biography. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 22:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your kind words Wikipedian Penguin! I've addressed all your concerns. Please let me know if there is anything else that needs to be done. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 03:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've struck through most of my comments. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 20:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've struck through all my comments. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments

Looks good. I have few comments though.

  • "She was then raised in Lokhandwala by her mother..." Is Lokhandwala so prominent that you need a mention and a wikilink? IMHO, No.
Removed
  • "...during this period, she became immersed in law books and developed a long-lasting passion for reading." Is "became immersed in law books" really required?
Removed
  • "Later that year Kapoor played the female lead in Santosh Sivan's period epic Asoka, a partly fictionalised account of the life of Ashoka." need a comma after 'year'. Also, prefix Ashoka with "an Indian emperor of the Maurya Dynasty". Not everyone knows Ashoka.
Done
  • "To prepare for the role, she visited several of Mumbai's red-light districts at night" You may want to link 'red-light districts' to Kamathipura, which is more specific to Mumbai.
The reason why I linked 'red-light districts' in general was because of the word "several" in the sentence. Kapoor didn't specifically visit one red-light district area; she visited "several".
  • "The film (and Kapoor's performance) opened to predominantly positive reviews by critics..." Parentheses not required.
Removed
  • "Kapoor is featured in the third chapter as Oberoi's love interest (Mira, a witty young woman)." 'a witty young woman' probably not required but I am not sure of that.
I see no harm in having it. 'A witty young woman' is used to describe her character, Mira, in Yuva.
  • Too much of Taran Adarsh everywhere and all he says is good-good. Can we have any positive-negative reviews/comments by any other critics?
The article is completely neutral and contains a "balance" of positive/negative comments by a variety of critics from different sources. Taran Adarsh's review is only used 3 times: Refugee, K3G and Dev.
  • "After graduating from Welham she studied commerce" need a comma after 'Welham'
  • "Kapoor then appeared in the Abbas-Mustan thriller Ajnabee." need a comma after 'thriller'.
  • "Kapoor was cast for the first time as a villain in the thriller Fida." need a comma after 'thriller'.
  • "During the filming of Fida Kapoor began a romantic relationship..." need a comma after 'Fida'.
  • "Although the film was unsuccessful at the box office" need a comma after 'box office'.
  • "she was cast as the protagonist of the 2005 drama Bewafaa." need a comma after 'drama'.

I have checked till "2007–11: Jab We Met and commercial success". Rest will check later. - Vivvt • (Talk) 16:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why are all those commas needed between the descriptors and film names? This article was copy edited, and another article that I am working on was recently copy edited by someone from the GOCE, and no such commas were deemed necessary. BollyJeff | talk 16:14, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comma not only is used for separating the clauses, it also indicates where you should take a small pause when you are [loud] reading the article. - Vivvt • (Talk) 16:25, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A comma may help, but I don't think it is required. My point was why are we second guessing the Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors? You want to tell them that they are not doing an adequate job? BollyJeff | talk 16:39, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
GoCE has always helped us in writing the articles in better way. However, there is always a chance for improvement. Also, I am not saying or dont want to say what you've said above for GoCE work. Hyderabad, India has failed four times at FAC, in spite of GoCE edits. That does not mean GoCE did blunders there. A reviewer probably still sees some improvement scope for the article. Obviously, for the betterment of the article. - Vivvt • (Talk) 16:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am not saying that; just wondering if that's how you felt. Okay BOLLYWOOD DREAMZ, it seems as though you will have to do what Vivvt suggests if you want his support here. If another reviewer comes along and says that there are too many commas, then I don't know what to tell you. BollyJeff | talk 17:08, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure about this particular comma issue. While speaking, we give a pause on those instances; however, do we always need to use comma in writing? I am not so sure. Moreover, there may be different school of grammar following different ways. Do you have a grammar or some Manual of Style, Vivvt, that recommends such use? Its beyond my knowledge of English. Bollyjeff, you can ask Miniapolis or someone else to opine here. I am sure there will be differing recommendations! --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:14, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@BollyJeff: My alone's support or oppose would not matter anyway because article is strong enough to pass for itself. The changes should not be done to please the reviewers but strictly for the betterment of the article. The main contributor need not follow all the review comments, if he/she does not agree to it.
@Dwaipayanc: Ideally, the punctuation matters for the narrative. I believe, we need to have it in the writing as well. However, I may be wrong here and elsewhere. I do not have any guidelines or MoS with me to prove my point. Again, experts may clarify the things. - Vivvt • (Talk) 17:25, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As for the commas, I honestly see no harm in having them. While writing the article, I had them, but Miniapolis had decided to remove it when he copy-edited the article. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 03:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised to see so many supports with a prose issue evident in the second sentence:

During her career, Kapoor has received six Filmfare Awards and has been noted for her performances in a range of film genres: from contemporary romantic dramas, comedies, period films to major Bollywood productions and lesser-publicised independent films.

"During her career"? When else would she receive awards? I didn't read further. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If lets say an actor/actress retired, then sometime after their retirement, they receive a lifetime achievement award or something of similar honor. At best, that could have been clarified as "During her film career" as maybe at somepoint she decides to quit film making and move on to a career in broadway or music. --JDC808 ♫ 22:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
SandyGeorgia, what do you mean by "surprised"? Everyone has the right to his/her opinion; some may "suppose", some may "oppose", whilst others may just choose to comment. Ultimately, it is your own prerogative on what you think of the article. I also believe that JDC808 made a good recommendation; will be changing it to "During her film career". -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 04:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment "n 2008 Kapoor performed in Shahrukh Khan's Temptation Reloaded 2008, a series of concerts in a number of countries. The show (which also featured Arjun Rampal, Katrina Kaif, Ganesh Hegde, Javed Ali and Anusha Dandekar) was staged at the Ahoy Rotterdam venue in Rotterdam, the Netherlands". The first sentence says it was a multi-city tour; the second sentence says it took place in Rotterdam?--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC) [reply]

  • Indeed the level of details for all these stage shows seem quite trivial, and seem not to follow any specific criteria. You have mentioned some of the shows, but probably not others. So what was the selection criteria? I don't see mention of any shows that took place in India (unless the world tours included India as well). I have a feeling this section needs tremendous trimming.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to your first point: I meant that "the show [...] debuted at the Ahoy Rotterdam venue in Rotterdam, the Netherlands".
Reply to your second point: IMO, details for all these stage shows are not trivial; all of the shows specifically mention where they took place similar to that of Zinta's article. As far as mentioning the shows that took place in India, the "stage performances" section is intended just for her world tours/shows that took place abroad. If we were to list all of her shows in India, it would unnecessarily lengthen the article. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 04:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did significant copyedit in several parts (including the lead) of the article, addressing content and language. IMO, the off-screen activities, particularly the stage performances, are detailed unnecessarily and without any pattern or criteria. The three subsection of that section could be merged into one unbroken section, and excessive details about the random stage shows removed. A sentence like, "she performed in many stage shows in India and some concert tours across the globe, including x (2001), y (2004)" and so on. Please opine.--Dwaipayan (talk) 23:08, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To begin with, thank you for taking the time in copy-editing the article. I agree with most of them, however there are a few of them which I don't really agree with. I'll be changing some of them. As for merging all her other work into one unbroken section, it wouldn't really be a good idea; it would end up looking like a bunch of random activities/thoughts put together. As I mentioned above, her stage shows are listed in chronological order and just mention where they took place. I honestly don't see the harm in having it. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 04:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding concert/stage shows: in that case, the article should explicitly mention that only non-Indian tours are listed. Also, are all the non-Indian tours mentioned (just a query)? In any case, then the paragraph should say that she has done many stage shows in India, and the global ones are mentioned here.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:34, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All her non-Indian tours are mentioned. BTW do you think it would help if we changed the section title? -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 06:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need to change the subsection name.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More on reference style in general, the titles of the references are in sentence case. There are some discrepancies though. Please read this section and follow the sentence case consistently. The first letter of a word should not be in capital after a colon, for example. Another reference title is "The Most Powerful Actresses in India". This is in title case, not in sentence can. This should be "The most powerful actresses in India". In a given article, one style should be used consistently, irrespective of the different styles used in the actual sources.--Dwaipayan (talk) 00:25, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Today's featured article, Bastion (video game), uses the same case as the sources. Just saying. BollyJeff | talk 01:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ya, I see that article has mixed sentence case and title case in its source titles. Well, perhaps we are demanding very strictly :) Actually, during a previous FARC, Sandy pointed this out. I believe this is a good thing to follow, for the sake of consistency in a given article, although views tend to differ in this regard, it seems.--Dwaipayan (talk) 01:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that the tool that helps build citations, Reflinks uses the source case too. BollyJeff | talk 02:44, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I am retracting this comment for now (sentence case versus title case issue), unless some other reviewer comments on this.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comments

  • USD and crore overlinked in many sections.
During Kapoor's first FAC, it was recommended that we put in the Indian rupees converter to avoid confusion for non-Indian readers. By putting the currency converter, it automatically links USD and crore; e.g. ₹200 crore (US$24 million).
  • PDF references needs (format=PDF) filled in.
Done
  • The notes section in filmography section should be unsortable per WP:FILMOGRAPHY.
Done
  • Link genre in the lead.
Done
  • Link the first occurrence of The Hindu in refs; same for "Box Office India".
Done for The Hindu. I see that the Box Office India article is currently nominated for deletion; once the issue is resolved it'll be linked.
  • Pipe-linking "a film family" to Kapoor family seems like WP:EASTEREGG.
Removed
Changed -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 02:39, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support –No issues for me. The article meets the criteria. —Vensatry (Ping me) 15:32, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comments The article is well-written, complete and meets FA criteria. Good work Bollywood Dreamz But, still has some issues.

  • "after which she acted in the melodrama Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham..., one of Kapoor's biggest commercial successes to date"
Why it is important to use a long sentence which could be replaced by a single word "Hit" or something like that. Since, it is not one of the highest frossing film right now. Then, Bodyguard and golmaal 3 should also be mentioned.
That is because K3G was her first worldwide success. I agree that there were other films of hers like Golmaal 3, Bodyguard, Ra.One that earned more than K3G, but when adjusted for inflation, it has earned more than these films. That is why it is still one of her biggest commercial successes to date.
  • "Refugee was the fifth-highest-grossing film in India in 2000"
So what, the film is 5th grossing film but it is widely considered as critical and commercial failure. Don't you think you are showing it like a blockbuster.
"Widely considered" by whom? The BOI source shows that it was a moderate success and managed to recover some of its profit. No one is "showing it like a blockbuster"; you are just assuming that. All it says that it was the fifth-highest-grossing film of the year.
Change it to moderate success or something like that.Prashant  Conversation  05:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mujhe Kuch Kehna hai, a romantic drama opposite Tusshar Kapoor, which became one of the year's most successful films"
It was just a "hit" nothing more so, why "most"?
Changed to hit.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • received her first Filmfare Best Actress nomination -> received her first nomination in Best Actress category at Filmfare or something else. No need to use just "Filmfare Best Actress"...a bit confusing, use original name.
Changed to official name.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She was in six films"
she was in six films? Maybe "starred" or "featured". It seems these films where unsuccessful because of other and she has no role to play.
"Starred" is reasonable. Changed.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was the second Bollywood film with a North American release by a Hollywood studio" why this is important?
Dwaipayanc removed it. I'm fine with that! Maybe if it was the first Bollywod film to get a North American release by a Hollywood studio, then I would have left it.
  • "However, Golmaal Returns was a financial success with international revenues of 79.25 crore (US$14.42 million)"
so what was its domestic gross....you are saying that it is the international gross so where is domestic? Sounds confusing.
Dwaipayanc changed it to say "global revenues".
  • Box office reports says Kambakkht Ishq was commercial failure in India, Why no use complete information.?
What box office reports? You're talking as if I didn't use any sources to support the information. BOI shows that the film was declared "above average". How is that a commercial failure?
Use moderate success or something like that.Prashant  Conversation  05:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How is that necessary? The film doesn't say anything about the film being a success. All it says that it grossed x amount. If it said that it was a commercial success, then that would be a different thing. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 05:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reviews says that Kurbaan received "mixed" reviews but I see positive. WHY?
Not according to this. Plus if you take a look at the reviews listed on Kurbaan's article you'll see majority of them are positive. Just because a film receives some negative reviews, doesn't mean that it received mixed reviews. If majority of the reviews are positive, then we can say that the film received positive reviews.
7 Khoon Maaf received 80% positive and 20% negative; it is described as "mixed". Kurbaan's ratio is about 40 positive and 60 negative. I can give you the links.Prashant  Conversation  05:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've conducted an analysis of the reviews Kurbaan received by film critics over here. You can see for yourself! :) -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 18:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "For her portrayal of the tomboy Daboo, Kapoor received Best Actress nominations at various award ceremonies"
But, I could see only three.
There are definitely more than three (Apsara, Big Star, Filmfare, Global Indian, IIFA, Screen, Stardust, Zee Cine).
  • You should include Bodyguard received mixed to negative review.
Done by Dwaipayanc
  • Any critical analysis for Ra.One (reviews) ...why her critical acclaims are highlighted and critical failures are covered under garland of "commercial success".
If you take a look at other FA's, you will see that it's not necessary that we have to add a critical review of an actor from every film. No one is highlighting her critical acclaim and covering her critical failures. If you look at the section, you can see that there are negative reviews mentioned as well (Tashan, GR, KI, Bodyguard). Kapoor's role in Ra.One was similar to that of Zinta and Chopra in KMG and Krissh respectively (in which the actress didn't have much to do).
  • "was an economic success, earning 42.17 crore (US$7.67 million) internationally." any domestic datas? Are you saying the film generated good revenues internationally alone?
Tweaked
  • Many reviews says Kapoor received "mixed to negative review" for Heroine but, I could see only praise. Again, why her acclaim is so highlighted.? and criticism has been covered?
Again, we are not hiding anything. Majority of sources (1, 2, 3) show that although the film received negative reviews, Kapoor's performance was well received. These sources are good enough; however, if needed I'm willing to put together an analysis of all the reviews she received for the film, something like what I did for her other films.
I can show you, how she has been criticized. Here's are the links showing "mixed" response from critics for her performance in Heroine [13], [14], [15], [16], [17].This says it all, she got some positive and some negative, which means "mixed". I think it is clear now.Prashant  Conversation  05:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just don't know what to say. Barring the one from OneIndia and to some extent NDTV, the other three are positive. As I said for the analysis of films, which pretty much can be applied to the analysis of her critical reviews, some mixed reviews doesn't mean that the overall reception was "mixed". I think I will have to list all the reviews for you to see. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 05:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've conducted an analysis of the reviews Kapoor received for Heroine (including the ones you mentioned) over here. You can see for yourself! :) -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 06:33, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok...it has been resolved. .Prashant  Conversation  09:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In many places, readers are made to be confused..whether the revenues are from international markets alone or worldwide. That should be used properly. Same for Talaash.
They were changed.
  • Again, you should correct "talaash received mixed reviews."
The word "predominantly" was used. As I said before, just because a film receives some negative reviews, doesn't mean that it received mixed reviews. Plus if you take a look at the reviews listed on Talaash's article you'll see majority of them are positive. Two other sources: 1 & 2. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 03:29, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm ok with talaash. You may use talaash "generally" received positive reviews.

Prashant  Conversation  14:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More comments

  • Again, I can't help myself to point it again. This sentence is misleading the readers over the film performance of Refugee. "Refugee was the fifth-highest-grossing film in India in 2000".
Tweaked
  • This is too much, last time it didn't got my eyes..."Kapoor portrayed Kaurwaki—a Kalingan princess, with whom Ashoka falls in love—and received her first nomination for Best Actress at the Filmfare Awards.[19] While the film received generally positive reviews". Positive review for Asoka, Check the link was a commercial and critical failure.
This shows that film received a 100% rating. I know that wasn't the case completely so I changed it to generally.
  • Her Performance and analysis says ...Despite the least success rate among her contemporaries....[...], I see a complete reversed version as all her hits here, are tagged with "one of the years biggest hits or success". Why it is important to say "one of the years biggest". Can't you use "was a box office success", "major success". Use "one of....." only in the major success's like Golmaal 3.
  • Same for Jab We Met, "The film was received favourably by critics and became one of the year's most successful films, with a domestic box office of 30.25 crore (US$5.51 million)."
Tweaked
  • Again, The film earned over 84 crore (US$15.29 million) worldwide, but was a critical failure. So, Don't tell what it sounds like.(like a blockbuster which was a critical letdown).
It may sound like that to you. As I said before, all it says that the film grossed x amount. Anyways, I just don't know to say anymore. Tweaked
  • The film (which marked the directorial debut of Rensil D'Silva)....who?(Is the director has won 10National Award and is regarded ad India's best director). Every second Director Debuts with first film, doesn't mean...we should highlight.
What? Kurbaan was his directorial debut; your comments don't make sense at all.
Done -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 18:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support As I said earlier, the article is well-written, complete and neutral. Hence, I support it. Congratulations to Bollywood Dreamz for his work on the article. Cheers!Prashant  ✉  03:07, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The reliability of boxofficeindia.com was established after a long discussion in reliable source noticeboard.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
After the last FAC, all of the unreliable sources were replaced with reliable ones. All of the sources used in the article are well-known and reliable; they are newspapers (The Times of India, The Telegraph), reliable websites (Bollywood Hungama, Indiatimes), magazines (Forbes, Filmfare), etc.
As far as the reliability of Oneindia.in is concerned, it is a mainstream Indian news website operated by B. G. Mahesh, one of the pioneers of the Internet and on-line news in India. TBH, if its reliability is questioned, I don't mind replacing it with a more reliable source. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 02:09, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would recommend removing it--while I'm still iffy on whether BoxOfficeIndia meets the "high quality" threshold of an RS it's evidently treated as such, but I'm not seeing anything to convince me of OneIndia's quality. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 21:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced the OneIndia source. I had originally used another source to support the worldwide gross of EMEAT. However, unable to find it, I decided to change it and used the gross from OneIndia. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 03:39, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some comments inpite of earlier support. Again, the article sounds like a too much for FA.

  • After making her acting debut in the 2000 war drama Refugee, Kapoor's early years in the film industry were successful; she received a Filmfare nomination for Asoka: But the below section of initial years says her initial years were average. Lots of failures and few or 2-3 success. Do this shows her sussess?
  • Getting a nomination at filmfare is what ? She only got this nomination and it doesn't make any thing a success.
If you would you have cared to read the rest of the sentence then you would know what I'm talking about. It later says that "this was followed by a series of commercial failures and repetitive roles, which garnered her negative reviews." By early years, I meant 2001; if you take a look at the sources from BOI and Rediff.com, you can see that the statement is correct. As far as the Filmfare nomination is concerned, the reason why I mentioned it was because it was her first nomination for Best Actress.
But, this is encyclopedia, leave all this but you should also mention her first supporting nomination. No? I'm just saying for the benefit of the article. Look at Balan's page. Its prose is well written.Prashant  ✉  08:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! I know that this is an encyclopedia. The lead of the article "serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects." We are not listing all her nominations there; she later received nominations for Omkara, Kurbaan, etc. Are those included? NO! As I said before, the reason why I mentioned it was because it was her first nomination for Best Actress. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 19:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, the positive reviews for Asoka are giving me a nightmare. The Indian reviews says that the film was worst of the year. I think rotten tomatoes just shows average of foreign reviews.
Please show me the reviews that say "the film was worst of the year". We can see that all the foreign reviews were positive whereas the ones from Indian film critics were mixed. For that reason I used the word generally.
  • Although a poll (conducted by Bollywood Hungama) named it the most anticipated release of the year,[48] the film was a commercial and critical failure. Why this is important to mention. Reality is Tashan is a critical and commercial disasters. Every third film with multistar cast attracts viewers interest but most important is the results which is Disaster.
Yes, and that is mentioned!
My point is why it is necessary to mention about poll? It sounds like the film should have been Blockbuster but it bombed.Prashant  ✉  08:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's precisely my point! -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 19:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • believed the screenplay was derivative, concluding: "There is nothing particularly new about a suspicious wife keeping tabs on her husband, and there is nothing particularly new in the way Kareena plays. Why this review is important, she received negative reviews....i can show you. Earlier, you said its not important to mention negative reviews for financially successfull films and then then you are crossing it yourself.
What are you talking about? The review provided is negative.
But, you mentioned she received mixed reviews?Prashant  ✉  08:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please take a look at the analysis that was done back in 2008. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 19:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bodyguard received negative to mixed reviews, though became a financial success ....it received negative reviews. What do you mean by mixed?
If you take a look at the film's article, you will notice that the film had a mixed reception. The critics didn't praise nor did they criticize it too heavily. I know that the film did receive negative reviews too and hence I decided to say "negative to mixed". Okay! I've now changed it to say that the film was not well-received by critics. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 19:09, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I know she is your favorite actress, its not mean that you start writing only good things about about her. Sounds like fancruft to me. Prashant  ✉  11:32, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TBH Prashant, sometimes I don't even know what you're saying. It's funny how you contradict yourself. You mentioned before that it was "well-written", "neutral" and "meets FA criteria". And now you go on to say that it "sounds like fancruft" and there are "only good things about her". Don't think for a second that I don't know what you're up to. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 18:50, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it may be funny to you but I wanna tell you that I'm also a kapoor fan and Chopra fan too but from last few months i Learned that this is encyclopedia and not a blog. I didn't even touched this article because you have handled it so nicely from past few years. But, its no that we should write only garlands and flowers. Also, I supported the article because it is well written and I'm not denying that. You should appreciate other reviewers that they are helping you in FA and not criticizing them.Prashant  ✉  08:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To begin with, I did not criticize you. I just stated how you always contradict yourself. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 19:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please move your argument to the talk page, it has no place here. As for supporting and then making those comments, sorry Prashant but that makes your input here a lot less credible.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:25, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My comments came in only because the article's many part was changed suddenly. I guess it should have been stable. When I looked again, it was changed. So, I made my points and hence they are resolved, I'm satisfied with it. I had supported and will always support the article. Congratulations and best of luck. The article don't don't have any oppse, so I guess it would be an FA soon. My points were only for the betterment and not for anything else. Cheers!Prashant  ✉  03:09, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support (for most of the criteria). I am not qualified to judge the article for criterion 1a (prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard), so not commenting on that. The article meets other criteria: 1b (comprehensive), 1c (well-researched, claims are verifiable per the random spot-checking), 1d (neutral, although some comments above questioned this, for me the article is neutral), 1e (stable); also meets criteria 2, 3, and 4. --Dwaipayan (talk) 16:26, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Am I the only one here who would rather dates formatted as 18 February 2013 rather than 2013-02-18 ?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:33, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, you are not. BollyJeff | talk 21:14, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Seems informal, like note form to me, not to mention backwards, I'd rather it be in writing.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 22:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But it's probably okay as is. The article should rest and not have so much change now. BollyJeff | talk 00:05, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Cite web initially had you format the dates 2013-02-18 as opposed to 18 February 2013, but I now see that it is the other way around. I see no problem in leaving it the way it is. If it's absolutely compulsory then I will change it. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 01:12, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is not as such necessary. The key is consistency within a given article; in this case, that date style has been consistently used.--Dwaipayan (talk) 01:27, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
User:Bill william compton has formatted all the dates as 18 February 2013 citing WP:MOSNUM. I guess it was important then! -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 03:09, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support - a very good article, constantly up-to-date thanks to the on-going, tireless dedication of this wonderful guy, Bollywood Dreamz, who keeps a close eye on the proceedings and insists on keeping it neutral and well-written. I congratulate all of you guys who've taken part in improving it over time, well done. Shahid • Talk2me 23:45, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the kind words Shahid! I would also like to take the time to thank each and every individual who participated in this FAC. Thank you for taking the time and offering your inputs; the article has only improved since it was nominated! Cheers everyone! :) -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 01:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, surprised Shahid turned up...♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:07, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comment -- Quite a few duplicate links; some are for currency, and others might be justified by the amount of prose between them in a decent-sized article, but pls review in any case. Use this script to check for them. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanks for introducing me to that script Ian! I've removed the unnecessary duplicate links. As for the currency, it was automatically linked when I used this template; I never knew you could add the following parameter ("|nolink=yes"), which would then help unlink it. -- Bollywood Dreamz talk 23:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Tks Bollywood. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 4 March 2013 (UTC) [18].[reply]

Gravity Bone

Nominator(s): — ΛΧΣ21 18:13, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gravity Bone is a freeware first-person adventure video game developed by Brendon Chung under his video game studio, Blendo Games, and released in August 2008. The game was developed using a modified version of id Software's id Tech 2 engine—originally used for Quake 2—and incorporates music by film director Wong Kar-wai. Gravity Bone received critical acclaim from video game journalists. It was called "an experience worth playing", and received comparisons to games such as Team Fortress 2 and Portal. The game was praised for its cohesive story and atmosphere and its ability to catch the player's interest over a very short time span without feeling rushed or incomplete. With permission from delegate GrahamColm, I am nominating this article for featured status. Regards. — ΛΧΣ21 18:13, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brief comments

  • Comment (as semi-involved, while I didn't work on this article, I'm working on its sequel and so sorta helping here). Brendan Chung (the one guy behind Blendo Games) has previously put free screenshots at my request of his other games (eg Atom Zombie Smasher) for purposes of WP. I don't know how much of a line I have to him directly nowadays (now that he's all "important" and stuff :) ) but will try to see if I can get him to do so. I don't expect this to hold up any issues on this FAC, since normally game screenshots are not replaceable with free, but this will probably help if I could. --MASEM (t) 14:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The gameplay section is a bit confusing to me. I don't get a clear sense of what players do beyond the fact that they're not told much. The thumbnail picture is the only place I learn that there is no HUD, certain details are repeated (At the end of the game, the player-controlled spy is killed by an unknown woman after chasing her through the last half of the second level. and Finishing the level triggers a set of final sequences of events and the game ends with the sudden death of the player's character.) and plot and gameplay are interwoven in I think a detrimental fashion; it might be better to go over the scant plot details first and then transition to a more fleshed out explanation of what players do. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 01:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by JDC808

Comments by Axem Titanium

  • HUD should be wikilinked and not abbreviated.
  • "The first level of Gravity Bone is disguised as a tutorial system" - I think this is backwards. Isn't the tutorial system disguised as the first level?
    • Hmm, both ways work. I will use yours :)
  • In the lead, "an experience worth playing" is in quotation marks, implying a direct quote, but when this phrase is mentioned in the Reception section, it is not in quotes and the phrase does not appear in Onyett's article. Onyett's article is also specifically not called a review.
    • True, it is a preview or impressions. For grammatical and *makes sense* purposes, I changed it to preview. And, well, ups. I synthesized his comment there in a way I should not have. I have fixed this. Take a look :)
  • What is Game Tunnel and why is it reliable?
  • "Citizen Abel" is not explained anywhere in the article, thus, it is confusing when his name is mentioned later, particularly in the Sequel section where the reader would have to know that the main char of Gravity Bone's name is Citizen Abel in order to understand the significance of the sentence.
    • The main character is not named Citizen Abel. What Citizen Abel is is explained in the Development section: "based on a series of Quake 2 maps entitled Citizen Abel".
      • If that's the case, they you have to explain that in 30 Flights, "Citizen Abel" refers to the main character's name, not a Quake 2 map. Axem Titanium (talk) 06:05, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Then yes; I'd have to fix that. The developer of the game, Brendon Chung, said that Citizen Abel is not the name of the character. He also said that the character has no name. I think this is pretty easy to understand from the development section. Also, I see that Masem mistakenly wrote that Citizen Abel was the character on the Sequel section. I have fixed that. — ΛΧΣ21 19:25, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a great little article about a great little game and I applaud you for attempting to improve it. I would love to support when these comments are addressed. Axem Titanium (talk) 04:44, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source Spot-check

I've checked the first few sources in the article, and have already found several problems. In the gameplay section, the source does not mention that the player character is a spy. This source doesn't say anything about chasing a woman, or the player character being killed by her. Also, while the reviewer of that source said he did not understand the plot, this does not support the claim that "The game was designed to keep the plot elements as scarce as possible." --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:34, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. I am still dealing a bit with them to make sure they are accurate. Although, some plot elements don't need to be sourced, per the common guidelines from the Wikiproject. — ΛΧΣ21 03:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A primary source cannot support a statement such as "The game was designed to keep the plot elements as scarce as possible", unless it's actually mentioned in the game what the developers' intentions were.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 03:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I was not talking about that one. I am looking for the ref that covers that one in the list :) — ΛΧΣ21 04:56, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. — ΛΧΣ21 05:32, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Only as a comment to help (I don't know immediately off the top of my head), some of the sourcing for Thirty Flights may help towards clarifying these. --MASEM (t) 19:17, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For the development section, in the interview, Chung didn't exactly say he had a "passion for films" in general. He said he liked Wong's films specifically. This should be clarified. Also Wong is the guy's last name, not Kar-wai. All the "Kar-wai"s in the article should be changed to "Wong".--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 02:11, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I will take care of this after the Grammys are over :) — Hahc21talk 02:14, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I have taken care of this. Thanks! — Hahc21talk 15:26, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The part about the sequel's non-linear storytelling being a "novel use of the video game medium" doesn't seem to be supported by the source. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:58, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a reliable source that - while it doesn't say that in so few words - has the message. (See third paragraph, the one under the 2nd picture). --MASEM (t) 23:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have replaced the reference. — ΛΧΣ21 23:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hurricanehink

Support (stumbled here after checking out my FAC)

  • Take care of the unsourced statement.
    • I will, sir :) Unsource statement removed. Don't know from where I took that.
  • Could you explain somewhere what "Citizen Abel" is? I see "and was based on a series of Quake 2 maps entitled Citizen Abel" - but that doesn't explain why it's in the image at the top-right of the article (or does it?!)
    • I will try to better explain what does Chung said about this. I am tired of seeing sources stating that Citizen Abel is the name of the character. I believed it was the name of the character too until Chung explicitly statet that the character had no name, and that Citizen Abel was... well, read it on the article when I fix it :P
  • It was called "an experience worth playing" - by whom?
    • Hmmm *goes and looks at the sources* Fixed.
  • From the description, it seems the game is very short, with two levels. Is that right?
  • "The player controls a spy" - probably add "unnamed" here.
    • Oh gosh, Indeed. Fixed.
      • Err, given what I've read elsewhere, is that correct? Are you sure Citizen Abel isn't the character's name? --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:34, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Err, Brendon Chung clearly stated on the interview: "It was based on a series of Quake 2 maps I did ten years ago called 'Citizen Abel'." He also stated, when asked if "In Gravity Bone, do you play Citizen Abel, or is that just a reference to your old maps?", that "That doesn't really play a part in the game. You never really see the character, the character never talks, it's just a label I had." With this, it is clear that the character is not named Citizen Abel. — ΛΧΣ21 03:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have three consecutive sentences starting with "Cheng" in "Development" :/
    • Will take care of this :) Fixed.
  • Given you had " as an experience worth playing" quoted in the lede, it should probably be quoted down in "Reception".
  • Were there any number reviews (aside from The Refined Geek)? Like 9/10? Stars? Thumbs up?
    • Nothing :/ Just positive comments with the exception you noted below.
  • And speaking of The Refined Geek - "awarding them a score of 8 out of 10 " - was that for each game, or for the series as a whole?
  • commenting, "The cohesiveness - should "the" really be capitalized here?
    • No. Will fix that. Fixed.
  • Did the game get any mention in any newspapers? Everything seems to be online. Also, was there any negative reception?
  • I notice, in the entire article, you don't say where the game was released, and how. You say it was released on Windows in the infobox, but there isn't a source or mention of that. Was the game really not available on a Mac? And how did people purchase it? And for what price?
    • The game is free, available on the developer's website, blendogames.com. It was not sent to Steam, not released under a price. It has no Mac version, or any other version but Windows. It's a very indie release that got the attention of the mainstream VG websites for its unique style etc :)

Just some missing details that I think the article needs. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:39, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 4 March 2013 (UTC) [20].[reply]

Marcus Ward Lyon, Jr.

Nominator(s): – Maky « talk » 16:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this short article for featured article because I feel that it meets all of the criteria. The article covers every source I can find on the subject. The only known exception is his burial record at Arlington National Cemetery, which would provide an interment date and grave location (section & tombstone number). I will include the information if someone can suggest a proper citation, especially since I cannot link directly to the record, only to the database. (An image of the tombstone may also be in the public domain under PD-USGov, but I'm not certain and cannot get a response from Arlington National Cemetery.) Assistance on these two issues would be most welcome. If any other sources can be located, please send them to me and I will quickly incorporate them.

Lyon was not known for a single, major contribution to the sciences, but contributed about 160 papers over the course of his career. He named two of the slow loris species that were recently elevated to species status, and is the authority on several genera and species of mammals (including a ton of synonyms). In all, this should be a complete, short article about a lesser known naturalist from the early 1900s. – Maky « talk » 16:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image is PD and fine. Sources are fine except the title for Just should use an endash instead of a hyphen and there's a doubled period in Layne, so I'll have to strongly oppose because of those tremendously outrageous issues ;-) Apparently Notre Dame has his family papers, not sure if you could access those. There's also "first published plant lists of the Indiana Dunes, then notes on ground squirrels and badgers anticipating his 1936 opus on mammals of Indiana" in American Midland Naturalist (January 2009), 161 (1), pg. 13-44. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the source and image review. Fixes made as requested... Lol! Living in Atlanta, I don't have access to the Notre Dame library, and I'm not even sure how I would cite family papers if I could get them to send me digital copies. What kind of information would you like to get from them? Lastly, are you simply wanting a mention of those lists and notes (per this source)? – Maky « talk » 19:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, just mentioned them because you had wondered above about further sources. I don't think it's a big issue either way. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:01, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Added the stuff from American Midland Naturalist as requested. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Ceranthor
Lead
  • Born in 1875 to a military family, he showed an early interest in zoology by collecting local wildlife around the army posts at which his father was stationed - I think the use of by makes this sentence awkward. Show and by don't mix well. Maybe at an early age he began collecting?
I'm not sure I see how this is awkward, but I have attempted to reword it. If the modifications are insufficient, please let me know. – Maky « talk » 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • U.S. National Museum (USNM) - Is there a reason US isn't spelled out? Is this the traditional spelling or something?
Good point. Fixed in two locations. – Maky « talk » 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1919, he and his wife, Martha, moved to South Bend, Indiana to join a new clinic. - Why is it a "new" clinic? It's the first mention of a clinic I've seen.
Changed to "newly opened clinic". – Maky « talk » 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following the move, he began to write more medical publications, - he began to write publications on medicine. More medical doesn't make sense as it is.
Fixed. – Maky « talk » 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Early
  • His family moved between various army posts across the United States throughout his childhood, although there are few records documenting his early life. - The use of although is improper here; the second half doesn't contradict anything in the first half.
I'm having a hard time rewording this. I will revisit it soon. – Maky « talk » 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've attempted to reword this. Please let me know if it's better. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a child, Lyon enjoyed collecting insects and other animals around the army posts,[1] particularly Watertown Arsenal near Boston, Massachusetts.[4] - This needs to be recast. As is, it reads as he enjoyed collecting Watertown Arsenal (collective noun for a type of insect) near Boston. I think adding an "at" would leave it too wordy. Better to reword this entirely.
I'm also having a hard time with this one, so I used your "at" idea for the time being. I'll revisit it soon. – Maky « talk » 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've attempted to reword this. Please let me know if it's better. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the time Lyon was in high school, his father had been restationed at Rock Island Arsenal, and the young man graduated from nearby Rock Island High School. - This sentence doesn't proceed logically; it doesn't explain that Lyon moved schools (with his father), rather that he graduated from a different school.
Fix attempted. Please let me know if it is clearer. – Maky « talk » 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • He attended Brown University and completed his Ph.B. in 1897, which included training in biology. - Unless I'm mistaken, the degree doesn't include training in biology, his studies did.
Good catch. Fixed. – Maky « talk » 17:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Career
  • In 1898, he moved to Washington, D.C. and in conjunction with his graduate studies, he became a part-time Aid in the Division of Mammals at the U.S. National Museum (USNM), now the National Museum of Natural History of the Smithsonian Institution.[1] - I can't help but feel the "now" bit would be better as a footnote.
Footnote made. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was sent to Venezuela in 1899 by the USNM, along with Lieutenant Wirt Robinson of the United States Army, to collect mammal specimens. - "He was sent to Venezuela with Lieutenant...Army in 1899 by...to collect mammal specimens." is better.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've used it. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • despite continuing his education and taking on teaching assignments at Howard University Medical School.[1][2] He taught physiology from 1903–1904 and 1907–1909, as well as bacteriology from 1909 to 1915.[2] - No need to separate these sentences. Can be condensed to "and teaching physiology and bacteriology at Howard University Medical School from 1903-1904 and 1907-1909, respectively. The dates can go wherever you want, but the two sentences definitely should be combined.
Done, though the example you gave incorrectly attributed the dates. Because of the complex dates, I've put them in parentheses. I hope that is acceptable. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • From his work as a mammalogist, Lyon is considered the taxonomic authority for the family - From is not the right word. Because of is better, but not perfect.
I never liked how this sentence started when I first wrote it, and I agree that "Because of..." is not perfect. But as before, I'm at a loss. If I think of something better, I will change it, but for now, I'm using "Because of..." – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • From his work as a mammalogist, Lyon is considered the taxonomic authority for the family Ptilocercidae (pen-tailed treeshrews).[6] He also is the authority for the genus Anathana (the Madras treeshrew)[7] and two genera of leporids (rabbits and hares), - These sentences should be combined.
Done. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although he was never able to visit the Far East, he acquired a strong knowledge of the fauna and geography from studying the collections that were sent to the USNM.[16] Following the end of his relationship with the USNM in 1912, he not only began publishing basic medical studies, but also continued to publish mammalogy material.[1] - The first sentence here seems out of place, unless it is saying that his publications related to the Far East's fauna. Otherwise I think it's an unnecessary detail.
It does refer to his publications about Far East fauna. I have done my best to fix, but you may not like it. Please share you opinion. I am open to suggestions, too. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Despite his interest in and occupation with medical science, his passion was for the study of living and extinct mammals, which was reflected in how his contributions to mammalogy outnumbered his medical papers.[16] - "which was" and after reads like original research, and the readers can gather that themselves, anyway, even if it is sourced.
Good point. Deleted. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personal life
  • Lyon criticized poorly managed conservation programs in his paper "Conservation from the Naturalist's Point of View" (1939), and in his final paper, he envisioned life around the Kankakee Outwash Plain before human activities had changed it. Lyon also gave up his cottage in the Indiana Dunes after the wildlife refuge was converted into a vacation destination.[16] - What is his final paper? It's not clear.
Title provided. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Oppose - The prose is rather clunky and needs a copyedit. I can't help but feel that the article is at times a bit redundant to give it length, and becomes choppy. ceranthor 18:41, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delayed replies/fixes. I have done my best to attempt the examples you pointed out above. I have also re-read the article but did not notice any other "clunky" prose... but then again, I'm not as good at copyediting as you are. If there are any other problems, please list them. Thanks for the review. – Maky « talk » 05:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think they've all been fixed pretty satisfactorily. The article still needs a copyedit of some form, though. ceranthor 21:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Let me know if there are particular places that need work. Suggestions are welcome. – Maky « talk » 04:36, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support from Ceranthor. The prose has improved greatly, and it is far less choppy than it was. I think it is close enough that I can comfortably support. That being said, the quote "ardent conservationist" under personal life needs to be cited. Otherwise, it looks good to me. ceranthor 19:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Kitchen Roll.

  • "Born in 1875 to a military family" --> "Born into a military family" - no need to state the year of his birth again.
Good point. Done. – Maky « talk » 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the same time, he taught medical classes at Howard University Medical School and later George Washington University Medical School." --> "At the same time, he taught at Howard University Medical School and later George Washington University Medical School." - no need to say medical classes, as they are both medical schools.
Another very good point. Fixed. – Maky « talk » 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He attended Brown University and completed his Ph.B. in 1897, and his training included biology." --> "He attended Brown University and completed his Ph.B. in 1897, which included training in biology."
Done. – Maky « talk » 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Because of his work as a mammalogist, Lyon is considered the taxonomic authority for the family Ptilocercidae (pen-tailed treeshrews), as well as the authority for the genus Anathana (the Madras treeshrew)" --> "Because of his work as a mammalogist, Lyon is considered the taxonomic authority for the family Ptilocercidae (pen-tailed treeshrews), as well as the genus Anathana (the Madras treeshrew)"
Done. – Maky « talk » 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Until the move to Indiana, Lyon wrote many papers in the field of mammalogy, and particularly on the morphology, systematics, and zoogeography of mammals." - is the "and" necessary? ("mammalogy, particularly"). If it is the sentence still feels a bit clunky.
Changes made. Let me know if it's a little better. – Maky « talk » 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Following the end of his relationship with the USNM in 1912, he not only began publishing basic medical studies, but also continued to publish mammalogy material." - publish and publishing used in the same sentence feels awkward.
Changed one of them to "write". Good enough? – Maky « talk » 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "articles collected by Lyon and his wife's scrapbook of her life in college." I can't make sense of this. Can it be reworded?
Changes made. Better? – Maky « talk » 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Ceranthor that the article needs a copyedit.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 14:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Within the next few days, I plan to review WP:1A (a long, but helpful page written by a user to help people learn how to copyedit). I review that page about once a year. After that, I'll re-read the article and try my best to clean it up more. However, if you can point out any other issues, I'd appreciate it. Thanks for the reviews and suggestions! – Maky « talk » 04:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant. Thanks for the quick response. I'll give the article another read soon.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 17:14, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More comments The article reads much better after the copyedit, but there are still issues. Here are some more comments. I may add more later.

  • "Born into a military family, he demonstrated an early interest in zoology when he began collecting local wildlife around the army posts at which his father was stationed." could be worded better.
I've tried tying the points together better and making parts of it more succinct. Your thoughts? – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lyon acquired the rank of Major in the Medical Reserve Corps during World War I, and was appointed to honorary positions during his career, including the position of president of the American Society of Mammalogists from 1931 to 1932." --> "Lyon acquired the rank of Major in the Medical Reserve Corps during World War I, and was appointed to honorary positions during his career, including president of the American Society of Mammalogists from 1931 to 1932."
Done. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last two sentences begin with "he" in the second paragraph of the lead.
Fixed. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His father's military career led his family to move across the United States throughout his childhood and adolescence." --> "Because of his father's military career, his family moved across the United States throughout his childhood and adolescence." Also "his" is repeated three times in this sentence.
Done and fixed. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Around each army post, and particularly at Watertown Arsenal near Boston, Massachusetts, the young Lyon enjoyed collecting insects and other animals." --> "The young Lyon enjoyed collecting insects and animals around the army posts, particularly at Watertown Arsenal near Boston, Massachusetts."
Done. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1898, he moved to Washington, D.C. and in conjunction with his graduate studies, he became a part-time Aid in the Division of Mammals at the United States National Museum (USNM)." --> "In 1898, in conjunction with his graduate studies, he moved to Washington, D.C. to become a part-time Aid in the Division of Mammals at the United States National Museum (USNM)."
I moved the year around to avoid the double "in" at the beginning of the sentence. Otherwise, this is done. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He retained his post at USNM until 1912 and taught physiology (1903–1904 and 1907–1909) and bacteriology (1909–1915) at Howard University Medical School." This sentence combines two unrelated points, linking them with "and". I think this sentence should be split up.
Done. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the latter half of 1915, he began teaching at George Washington University Medical School, handling courses in bacteriology and pathology from 1915 until 1917 ... " --> "In the latter half of 1915, he began teaching at George Washington University Medical School, handling courses in bacteriology and pathology until 1917 ... " - no need to mention 1915 twice.
Good catch. Should have been obvious. Fixed. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lyon served in the U.S. Army during World War I, joining in 1917 and serving as a pathologist at the Walter Reed Army Hospital for two years." --> "From 1917, Lyon joined the U.S. Army for two years, serving as a pathologist at the Walter Reed Army Hospital during World War I."
Done. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His wife, Martha, was also extended the same offer, and joined the clinic as an ophthalmologist." --> "His wife, Martha, was extended the same offer, and joined as an ophthalmologist."
Done. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The final paragraph of the "career" section uses the word "incorporated" three times.
Done. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After moving to Indiana in 1919 ... " --> "After he moved to Indiana ... ". No need to say when he moved there again.
Done. – Maky « talk » 02:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 22:27, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. Somehow I missed these comments while I was moving. I will address them tonight. – Maky « talk » 11:53, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for fixing these problems. I can now support the article.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 13:28, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your time reviewing the article and suggesting fixes. – Maky « talk » 03:07, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments. I'm copyediting the article; please revert anything I accidentally screw up. I'll try to give detailed rationales in the edit summaries for anything non-trivial. I'll add comments below as I go through the article.

  • Poking about in Google Books brought up the "Annual Report of the Board of Regents of the Smithsonian Institution" for the year ending 30 June 1906, which shows Lyon as having been appointed Assistant Curator in the Division of Mammals during the prior year. This directly contradicts your source that gives the dates as 1898-1900; I would think the Annual Report is the more reliable source for this. The 1908 report shows him still with that title; I'll see if I can find more examples. Aha! Googling "marcus lyon aid division of mammals 1910" under Google Books brings up a "Guide to the Smithsonian Archives", issue 5, which has this snippet visible in the search: "Other staff members of the Division of Mammals have included Marcus Ward Lyon, Jr., Aid, 1898- 1906, and Assistant Curator, 1906- 1909". For some reason that information doesn't come up inside the book, but I think that's enough to doubt your other source.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:33, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason, I am not having the same luck with your search strings on Google Books. Searching "marcus lyon aid division of mammals 1910" did not pull up "Guide to the Smithsonian Archives", but instead pulled up the Historical Catalogue of Brown University. I did find the snippet you mentioned by searching directly for the volume—here is a link. As you said, your source says "Aid, 1898- 1906, and Assistant Curator, 1906- 1909", whereas the one from Brown University says "assistant curator, U. S. National Museum 1905–12". It seems like every source says something different, and even though I'm inclined to trust a source from the Smithsonian, I'm worried we're getting into original research. Your thoughts before I proceed with any changes? – Maky « talk » 03:07, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now finished with the copyedit. I'm ready to support once the issue above with the dates of his assistant curatorship has been addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:56, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the copyedit! I'm fine with the changes you made. I have made comments above regarding the factual error, but will need your help resolving it. – Maky « talk » 03:07, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How about changing the text just to indicate that he was assistant curator "for a time", or something neutral like that, and then adding a footnote that gives the multiple sources and the varying date ranges? I would include the "Annual Reports", if you can find them; if not I'd be glad to add them for you. I think those are probably the most reliable source among those we're discussing because they are direct documentation of that year, and they're not really primary -- primary would be a letter from him to the Smithsonian accepting the post, I would say. I don't think it's OR to include sources like this, but unfortunately one can't do much with them other than confirm that he had the post that year -- by their nature it's not going to be easy to identify the end of his term. Though if you can find the annual reports for the years before and after his appointment I think that could suffice -- again, with the situation explained in the note. Do you think this is an acceptable approach? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:37, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with the footnote idea, and will implement that now. I found digital copies of the Annual Reports by year at BHL. However, I can't search the content using the web interface, and the PDFs take forever to download, otherwise I would look at every year for a more complete record. Using the OCR to search the volume ending 30 June 1906, I don't see where it says Lyon was appointed Assistant Curator in the Division of Mammals the previous year as you claimed. What page were you on? Anyway, I'll see what I can do. – Maky « talk » 18:10, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is the "about this book" link; the text is on page 50. Let me know if that doesn't work for you and I can give you the exact text. I'll keep digging and see if I can find the announcement of his successor. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:10, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the link. Because the book is for the "year ending June 30, 1906", it's impossible to say if he was promoted in 1905 or 1906, I think. If you could suggest a final sentence for that second note (b), I will use the link you provided as a reference. As it stands, I think the note says what can be said. – Maky « talk » 04:08, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've switched to support, above, while we tweak the wording on this; this is just a detail. I think the note can go into details that would be too tedious for the main text, so how about making this the second sentence of that note: "According to the Guide to the Smithsonian Archives, he was an Aid from 1898 until 1906 and Assistant Curator from 1906 to 1909, and this is supported by the museum's annual report for the year ending June 30, 1906, which recorded his promotion to Assistant Curator during the preceding twelve months." That places the information adjacent to the other source directly related to the Smithsonian, and puts the two most likely to be accurate first in the note. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:03, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just made another tweak to clarify that McIntosh and the Brown source don't give dates for his post as Aid; as a result I've moved the McIntosh ref to the end to cover that clause. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:47, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for the suggestion and tweak. I tweaked it further by showing it start date for the Aid position, and I tried to find an end date for his Assistant Curator position, but those volumes appear to stop reporting personnel changes before 1909. Feel free to tweak the wording further to fit your taste. Also, I was wondering if you had an opinion on the photo of the tombstone at Arlington (mentioned at the top of this page)? I'm pretty sure it was taken by an employee of the US Government, but they are not responding to my emails. It would be nice to add a picture near the bottom of the article to break up the monotony of the text. Regardless, thanks again for the helpful and copyedit review. – Maky « talk » 16:38, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What you've done looks fine. I looked at the tombstone page but can't figure out whether it is PD, though like you I suspect it is. Sorry, not an expert on that sort of thing. Anyway, nice article; I hope it gets promoted. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:53, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Ian Rose 10:03, 4 March 2013 (UTC) [21].[reply]

Laura Secord

Nominator(s): Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:36, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I think it is a comprehensive article on the Chocoloate Lady this War of 1812 heroine, and an important part of early Canadian mythology.

Ideally, I'd like to see it as Today's Featured Article on 22 June 2013, which is the 200th anniversary of her famous walk through enemy-controlled territory to inform the British of an impending American attack. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:36, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Rschen7754

This is my first full review of a non-road FAC, so I won't be supporting or opposing until others review.

Personal history
Memory and legend

Review by Dank

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

  • Hi Curly, thanks for bringing this to FAC. The lead needs to be longer; about twice as long would do it, as long as it does a good job summarizing the article. I'll be back with more a little later. - Dank (push to talk) 18:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oh, dear. Oh, deary, deary, dear. Natty10000 doesn't seem to agree, as s/he has gutted the lead not just once (18 January), but twice (19 January) since I've submitted this article for FAC. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:58, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Okay, don't do anything with it yet, I'll go ask Natty what's up. - Dank (push to talk) 22:08, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think we can compromise here; I agree that it has a bit more detail than it needs, and I'll trim a bit. See what you think. - Dank (push to talk) 22:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • I certainly don't have any problem with a trimming, but cutting out the info about the chocolate company is a big mistake. It can hardly be understated how strongly Canadians associated her name with chocolates, even amongst those familiar with the historical Secord. The first thing most Canadians think of when you mention her name is chocolates. In fact, I first visited the article myself to find out when she founded "her" chocolate company. I think it's important to emphasize they she is both unrelated to the chocolate company, and that her name is strongly associated with the chocolate company amongst Canadians. Otherwise, Canadians (who will almost certainly be the vast majority of readers) will be confused as to her relation with the company (as I was).
            • I didn't cut the information out of the article, I just reduced the bit in the lead to "Laura Secord Chocolates are named for her." Change it however you want ... but if it feels too much like "product placement", then I'll stop here. - Dank (push to talk) 00:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
              • I do undertand the "product placement" concerns, but please keep in mind that a quite significant number (quite likely a majority) of Canadian readers who come to this article will be curious about her realtion to the chocolate company. "Laura Secord Chocolates are named after her" only raises more questions than it answers. The fact that the fame of the chocolate company far overshadows Secord's own has more than one reference in the article, and I'm sure I could come up with more with little effort.
              • How about something like this? —
                Before: "On the centennial of her walk, businessman Frank Patrick O'Connor named Laura Secord Chocolates in her honour; it became the most successful candy retailer in Canada, and though the historical Secord and her family had no relation to it, amongst Canadians her name is most often associated with the candy company."
                After: "Though the historical Secord and her family had no relation to it, most Canadians associate her name with the Laura Secord Chocolates company, which was named in her honour on the centennial of her walk."
              • I'm not really sure it's a good idea to leave out the "Canada's most successful candy retailer"; while I sympathise with the "product placement" concern, it does give context for non-Canadian readers—as in: why would Canadians associate her name with a candy company, and even if they do, why does it have to be in the lead?
          • If you're going to do more more trimming to the lead, there's one more detail I think is important not to lose: that her father fought on the American side in the Revolutionary war. Before I atrarted editing it, the article claimed Thomas Ingersoll was a United Empire Loyalist (uncited, of course). It's a belief held by (or assumed) a certain number of Canadians, and I think it's important to disabuse readers of that notion. Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sure, I'm fine with those changes. - Dank (push to talk) 01:04, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would make "(where she stopped at the home of her half-brother Charles, who was ill in bed)" a note; I think it's a bit tangential and interrupts the flow of that sentence. - Dank (push to talk) 00:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The two instances of " are said to " in the personal description section leave me a little skeptical ... who said? - Dank (push to talk) 00:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 01:10, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Nikkimaria

Sources and images - spotchecks not done. Disclaimer: have previously edited the article

Review by Paul MacDermott

  • Support I have reviewed this article using text-to-speech software, so please note there are aspects of it I haven't checked, such as images, but those seem to have been covered by other reviewers. Having listened to it several times over the last few days I find it reads well and provides a broad coverage of the topic. I like articles where I come away having learnt something interesting, and as someone from the UK I was unaware of Laura Secord and the role she played in history. One suggestion I have (though this is optional) is adding the pronunciation of her surname. My software pronounces it as "Seecord", but I've no idea if that is correct. Paul MacDermott (talk) (disclaimer) 12:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd actually wanted to include a pronunciation, but have been unable to find a reliable source that provides one. Growing up in Canada, everyone around me pronounced Laura Secord Chocolates as /ˈsikɔɹd/; when I took my family to the Laura Secord Homestead last summer, the staff pronounced her name that way as well. The Japanese wiki site for her (jp:ローラ・セコール) has her name pronounced in a pseudo-French style (/sekoːɽɯ/), which made me doubt which was correct (I live in Japan, and looked it up for my wife). There are Japanese sources that give a pronunciation similar to the one I grew up with, though. There's a Yahoo! Answers page, which I'm fairly certain is a prank, that pronounces it /ˈlauɹə ˈsɛkɔɹd/. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:41, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Featured_log/March_2013&oldid=542192673"