Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

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This page is for reporting possible breaches of the external links guideline. Post questions here regarding whether particular external links are appropriate or compliant with Wikipedia's guidelines for external links. Provide links to the relevant article(s), talk page(s), and external links(s) that are being discussed. Questions about prominent websites like YouTube, IMDb, Twitter, or Find a Grave might be addressed with information from this guide. Sections older than 10 days archived by MiszaBot. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) If you mention specific editors, you must notify them. You may use {{subst:ELN-notice}} to do so.
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Linking to article by author

At the Teahouse I was told not to link to this article because it is a reprint of a news article.[1] It is being used used here. I have found the published article in archives but I cannot link to it. The article is at the author's own blog, but contains images from AP and contributions by other staff members at the San Antonio Express-News. The San Antonio Express-News website contains the phrase "Copyright © 2013, San Antonio Express-News. All rights reserved." Is this link violating copyright policies? Should it be removed? Ajaxfiore (talk) 04:52, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Ajaxfiore. As this is about a source and not an external link in the EL section or infobox, this seems more like a question for the folks at the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Good luck! Stesmo (talk) 18:20, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Turner Diaries and Hunter

There is a copyright dispute on my talk page over external links on the William Luther Pierce articles about the fictional novels Turner Diaries and Hunter. Both of these books explicitly state on The Internet Archive that they are no longer in copyright and public domain, have been at this online library for 5 years, have thousands of downloads and no dispute of copyright has ever been taken up against them. Can someone please come to my talk page for arbitration?Pussypimples (talk) 01:03, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

To give my side of this:

1. The dispute concerns The Hunter, a book by William Luther Pierce written in 1989. PP is attempting to insert an external link to its listing on the Internet Archive, which claims that it is public domain and was released as such by the National Allianc÷e.
2. Problem the first; the book, absent an explicit revocation of copyright, is still copyrighted: It was written in 1989, and so is within the existing copyright terms in the United States (our hosting jurisdiction, the IA's hosting jurisdiction, and Pierce's jurisdiction of residence).
3. Problem the second; the NA didn't write the book, Pierce did. There's no statement or evidence presented that Pierce transferred copyright to the NA.
4. Problem the third; even if Pierce did transfer copyright, "someone claiming to be the NA says it's public domain" does not constitute a release. We don't know that they are NA-associated at all, much less that they're authorised to work as the NA's legal agents. Ironholds (talk) 01:13, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

To begin, WP:EL states that a link can normally be included to "An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a legally distributed copy of the work..." The question then, is whether the Internet Archive legally distributes the work (not whether it is in the public domain). The Internet Archive distributes the work based on permission from the National Vanguard, the book's publisher (according to Hunter (Pierce novel), anyway). In my mind, then, this boils down to solely a factual question: does the National Vanguard have the right to permit others to distribute the work, and if so, has the National Vanguard actually given this permission? I am no expert on copyright law, but I'm under the impression it is ordinary that the author gives the publisher such a right, and that if the publisher asserts this right, it need not be questioned by us unless challenged by the copyright holder. That leaves us with the question of whether the National Vanguard actually did give the Internet Archive permission. Knight of Truth (talk) 05:19, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I just want to note that I find it questionable whether it was indeed National Vanguard that uploaded the book. (But even if it were, I don't think we can make assumptions about their right to distribute it on the Internet Archive, and unless Pierce assigned the copyright to the publisher, they certainly can't just go and say it's public domain.) wctaiwan (talk) 05:30, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps the most straight-forward way would be to ask National Vanguard directly? If the publisher says the work can be distributed freely, why should we have any more worries than when the publisher says the work is for sale? It is not reasonable to question the (usually private) agreement an author has with a publisher if there is no evidence that there is a dispute over it. We do the same thing when, say, we link to an article in a scientific journal that publishes its articles online; no-one asks to see the copyright release the author signed. Knight of Truth (talk) 05:46, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Er. What? No. That's not how it works at all. Yes, publishers have a license to distribute; without that, they're not publishers. This does *not* mean that they have the full rights to the work, including the ability to declare something to be in the public domain. That's what's under discussion here, and is most definitely not standard: does the National Vanguard hold the full copyright to the work, and if so, have they released the work into the public domain. This is not ordinary and is perfectly legitimate to question. Ironholds (talk) 13:20, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

But as I said, the question is not whether the work is in the public domain, merely whether National Vanguard can (and actually did) assign its right to distribute the work to the Internet Archive. Policy is to link to copyrighted works so long as they are legally distributed, whatever copyright status or license (from public domain to CC-BY to a custom license) that may entail. Knight of Truth (talk) 18:26, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Then you're simply wrong. Again, the IA's listing claims the work is public domain; that's what we're trying to establish here. If the uploader was not the NA, it is a copyright violation and we cannot link to it. If the uploader was the NA and they lack the authority to release copyright - which, I will remind you, is not an authority usually given to publishers - it is just as illegitimate a release and just as problematic to link to. Ironholds (talk) 21:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

The editor who removed the links to turner diaries and hunter suggested on my former talk page (pussypimples) that he was essentially politically and socially motivated (my interpretation) because he doesn't like links to hatebooks/hatesites from wikipedia. This is in spite of the fact the external links in question are indisputably relevant to the articles. This effort to remove the links smacks of lowbrow POV warrior activism which is decidedly unacceptable at Wikipedia. I did a search on Google, Bing and Yahoo using a variety of terms associated with these books and the IA listings come up on the first page every time. If there was even a shadow of a doubt they were in copyright violation certainly they would have been removed long ago. Ironholds has not provided any prima facie evidence these novels are in copyright violation other than pontificating passionate speculation. GingerBreadHarlot (talk) 00:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks are also unacceptable at Wikipedia, y'know. Again, the onus is not me to show that the work is copyrighted, because US law mandates that a work of this age is copyrighted unless explicitly released by the copyright holder. We do not have any evidence that the NA is the copyright holder, and the fact that someone claiming to represent them uploaded it is meaningless without some kind of verification. Ironholds (talk) 01:46, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

When someone publicly admits on my talk page about being politically motivated to remove highly relevant information from Wikipedia articles because of its conflict with their personal ideological and social belief systems, it undeniably is the epitome of anti-intellectual (lowbrow) POV warrior activism. By no means is criticizing the confessed bias to be misconstrued as a personal attack either. I looked closer at the two said novels in question and it appears they were added to IA in early 2010, which means they are about to turn half a decade old (as listings). The items appear to state they were published by National Alliance, the organization founded by the deceased author Pierce. Given the defacto age of the library listings, their 5-figure combined downloads, conspicuous copyright liberation statements and linkbacks galore to the National Alliance, it's pretty clear that the items are not in copyright violation. The onus is now on you to prove the items are in copyright violation. You have not provided any proof to support your claims, even though you have been given numerous days so far to show any kind of evidence. All further responses from here on out are going to be: Please show us proof the items are still in copyright. The onus of proof and evidence remains on you. If you don't have proof just be honest and admit it, so we can end this dispute with the links staying in their respective articles. GingerBreadHarlot (talk) 15:51, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think "defacto" means what you think it means, but it's clear that we're done here. You have a tremendously flawed understanding of copyright law, and in the absence of any ability on your part to revisit that, there's nothing useful to be said. Ironholds (talk) 15:52, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Please try to make a more concerted effort to stay on topic next time. The focus of this arbitration has nothing to do with you expressing any unresolved feelings or speculative opinions regarding my understanding of copyright law. The focus of the arbitration: determine the copyright status of said novels. Your responsibility to provide proof they were in copyright violation resulted in you providing not even a modicum of evidence other than musing about wondering. All you needed to do was spend a few minutes searching the Internet to discover who occupies the director seat of the publishing organization in question. Since you didn't do so, I decided to find out for myself. It appears that the Grand Pooh-bah of this organization is Kevin Alfred Strom who can be found at http://www.kevinalfredstrom.com and then ask him. Just contact him and find out if the said novels are in copyright violation or not. What we need are precise answers not substanceless circle talk. GingerBreadHarlot (talk) 23:43, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

That's entirely on-topic because you are labouring under the tremendous misunderstanding that the onus isn't on the person claiming that copyright is released. Have Strom contact OTRS - which is not hard (I wrote the darn page) and validate that it's out of copyright. Until then, the links should be removed. Ironholds (talk) 00:16, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The said novels listed on IA clearly state they are public domain and not in copyright, you have failed repeatedly to show even as much as a modicum of evidence or proof they are in copyright violation. Again, the onus is upon you to prove they are in copyright violation, not the other way around. You are the one claiming they are in copyright violation, not me. You need to back up your claim, not lecture about curious speculation. The said books in very non-vague terms explicitly state their status, and have been listed on IA for 5 years unmolested. Moreover, the fact a POV warrior activist confession was publicly made that the motivation to remove these very relevant links is politically and sociologically motivated indicates a wanton disregard of mutual good faith (good faith is a two way street and it appears you have not lived up to your end). It's up to you now to prove the items are in copyright violation, and so far you have yet to do so other than pontificate in mind-numbing circles. It's time for you to deliver something of substance, it's time for you to provide proof, it's time for you to present evidence, so until then, these highly relevant links are to remain unmolested. If you can't provide even an iota of evidence or proof the said novels are in copyright violation at least show a scintilla of integrity and admit it. Again, until you provide proof or evidence the links remain. GingerBreadHarlot (talk) 01:46, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Wait, what? I've made no such declaration of being a "POV warrior activist". This is clearly a waste of both our time. Ironholds (talk) 01:52, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The editor who deleted the relevant links from the articles about novels hunter and turner diaries did so on the stated pretext of "copyright violation" but then reversed himself making a public confession on the pussy pimples talk page that he was removing said content for personal political and sociological reasons. This is clearly a surreptitious failure of mutual good faith and a disgusting example of clandestine POV-activism. Based on the editor's public admission of personally motivated bias, it appears "copyright violation" was really meant to be nothing more than a ruse. The reason it is a ruse because the said novels clearly state their copyright status and you have refused repeatedly to provide any proof or evidence otherwise. If you can't provide even an iota of evidence or proof the said novels are in copyright violation at least show a scintilla of integrity and admit it. Again, until you provide proof or evidence of copyright violation the links remain. GingerBreadHarlot (talk) 02:14, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Because I work in copyright, I was asked to review this. There is no evidence that this content was hosted by anyone with authority to do so. It is not hosted by the Internet Archives directly, but is in the "community texts" section - [2] - these books can be uploaded by anyone who creates an account, which makes it the equivalent of Scribd. Internet Archives does to verify the copyright status of these works. It simply asks in the upload form that you only add content you have the right to. To make sure of this, I uploaded a "book" myself - within 10 minutes of creating account. I could have done it in 2, but it took me a few minutes to find a verifiably PD document they didn't already have. ([3]) This opens up content hosted there to fraudulent claims of copyright status, as anyone can host any content under any claim of license. In accordance with WP:ELNEVER: "If there is reason to believe that a website has a copy of a work in violation of its copyright, do not link to it." Given this, there is additional reason to doubt the veracity of this PD claim and this is compounded by the fact that the book contributor is listed on the site as "Dr. William Luther Pierce" (in case that changes, as evidently the description has been altered by the person who uploaded the book within the past few days), which is obviously patently untrue, as the man died in 2002. As we have reason to believe the content is hosted in violation of copyright, these links need to be removed in accordance with policy. We do not keep them until there is proof of violation; we remove them on reasonable doubt, which we have, until that reasonable doubt is removed. They should not be restored pending consensus that they are appropriate. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks MRG. I'm going to remove the links now. GBH, either have the relevant people validate the release through OTRS, or those links aren't coming back - no, not even if you write Yet Another 1,000 Byte Talk Page Comment explaining how I'm a terrible person who can't be trusted. Ironholds (talk) 18:39, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Oliver, I never said you were a terrible person, those are your own words. I said moreorless provide definitive proof the items in question where not what they claimed to be (no longer in copyright), and not provide conjecture or talking in circles. MRG, those novels have been live for five years on Wikipedia and no one ever brought a copyright claim against them. Any search on any top engine, shows those listings on the first page results. The editor who deleted the links initially stated he did so for reasons of bias.GingerBreadHarlot (talk) 11:48, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

What I actually said was I admit I'm in part motivated by my desire not to see hate speech linked directly from Wikipedia, but even if we were to disregard the nature of the content, Wikipedia tends to be conservative on how we handle copyright, and this just isn't good enough. Please stop mischaracterising what I said ("public confession") and slandering my character ("POV warrior"; a casual look through my contribs will show that is patently untrue) with every comment. As far as I'm concerned, we're done here. wctaiwan (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

.GingerBreadHarlot, it doesn't matter how long it's been here. What matters is whether they're policy compliant. We remove content that has been published longer than five years on Wikipedia routinely. Yesterday, I blanked material that was published on Wikipedia in 2006. We address problems when they're discovered. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

List of TED speakers

The lengthy "List of TED speakers" contains external links to the video for each of the talks listed. Leaving aside the list entries themselves, this article seems to go pretty strongly against Wikipedia consensus on external links, per WP:EL: "Stand-alone lists or embedded lists should not be composed mainly of external links. These lists are primarily intended as internal navigational aids, not a directory of sites on the web. This does not apply if the external link is serving as a citation for a stand-alone list entry that otherwise meets that list's inclusion criteria." See also WP:NOTLINKFARM. Although some readers may find it useful to have these links, so they can watch the video, that goes against Wikipedia's purpose.

I recommend removing the external links from the list and, secondarily, limiting the entries to notable speakers (those who have or should have a Wikipedia article about them) so as to make the list more useful in the context of Wikipedia. Does either seem a sensible choice? Knight of Truth (talk) 05:00, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I should add that there is a very reasonable link to http://www.ted.com/speakers already present, and that a link to a particular talk may well be appropriate on the individual speakers' articles.Knight of Truth (talk) 05:05, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:ELMINOFFICIAL is pretty clear on the number of acceptable external links as well as the reasoning. Otr500 (talk) 19:34, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Wow. Thousands of external links at that article... I cannot imagine how that would meet WP:EL in letter or spirit. There should be a maximum of 1 external link on that article. Stesmo (talk) 23:29, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

WAIT!!!: Let's make sure we are on the same "page" here. I looked at List of TED speakers that shows four external links. Although that is more than the one, possibly two of ELMINOFFICIAL, where did Thousands of external links at that article... come from? Otr500 (talk) 02:13, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

There are 4 in the EL section. There are thousands in the body of the article. One ext. link for the bio for each speaker and a minimum of one external link for the talks. I just couldn't get past those... In the EL section, there are four where there should be one (TED speakers). Stesmo (talk) 02:21, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Note: WOW!!! the more I look at it the more it is a major circumvention of Wikipedia:policies and guidelines. I have not studied on the use of the video links (in a "Talk(s)" column), as references or external links (I assume one of your main concerns as they have to fall somewhere), but someone has linked videos to non-articles and that is inclusion by some proxy that does not exist.

My take: The videos are not acceptable according to Wikipedia standards for inclusion and certainly not plastered on a list page to be able to exist outside of any Wikipedia policies. This is how articles like the thousands of Playboy Playmate was existing with "major" problems. Does anyone know how to counts these? I will support ANY move to clean this up. Otr500 (talk) 06:57, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

With due respect to those who must have put in quite a lot of work here, I'd question the purpose of the article as a whole, a link farm merely culled from the ted.com website. What is this adding to our TED (conference) article? Should we consider taking to AfD?: Noyster (talk), 12:51, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

The article clearly doesn't comply with WP:LINKFARM, WP:ELMINOFFICIAL, WP:MOS#External links and best practices for list articles. I think AfD might be a little excessive. What I recommend is to remove all red link entries per (see WP:WTAF), remove all "bio" external links, and convert the remaining links to web citations.- MrX 13:26, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

SO you noticed the complexity and depth of the list article? I also notice that a proper entry was listed at Talk:List of TED speakers#Discussion: removing external links from the list entries. It is a good thing to consult with interested editors from that article.

I like lists and find them useful, With that in mind I would not want to submit to Afd if cleanup is possible. Can this be done? I am not sure as it is a "large" undertaking and may exact opposition. The practice of using a column with what is certainly external links for video's is inappropriate.

"IF" we can have a "local" cleanup that does not end up in conflicts then that will be good. "IF" this ends up being a "local" attempt to to hinder needed cleanup we will have to take this to the larger community. It would be refreshing to straighten out an issue, without being inundated with opposition, but that has not been my experience.

With a cleanup in mind what would be a suggested solution? Deletion and conversion would still leave external links in column list form would it not? That does not conform to ANY norms of policies and guidelines like layout. Otr500 (talk) 16:59, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I see no reason to object to the inclusion of the links in the current format of the page. The links are functionally convenience links: the only functional option, aside from the current format, is providing just the name of the talk (i.e. removing the EL) and moving the EL inside <ref></ref> tags; both of them have the same function, and the latter makes it less convenient to get the same link. In my mind, the problem is the overwhelming size of the list, and I question the need for such a list at all, but as long as we have a comprehensive list, we might as well provide convenience links to the talks. Nyttend (talk) 04:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Nyttend that the convenience links to the videos of the talks should be kept - they also link to other info about the talk and speaker at ted.com. This is quite useful to our readers. — Lentower (talk) 19:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The "(bio)" links should be moved to the Wikipedia article about the speaker where one exists, and otherwise deleted. — Lentower (talk) 19:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm against removing list entries where there is not currently a Wikipedia article on the speaker. Many of them meet Wikipedia's notabilty policy, and articles could be created - without doing the research it is hard to know who isn't notable. — Lentower (talk) 19:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Participants in this discussion are invited to weigh in on the somewhat related discussion below about external links to Prager University, a website kind of like TED Talks. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:55, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Bird Information Websites

The IP user User:72.186.24.251 has added a bunch of related links to several websites involving birds. I'm not sure if they are appropriate or not, so thought I would raise the issue here. See [4]; [5], among there other contributions. meamemg (talk) 02:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Update from userUser:72.186.24.251 (user matrex01) I believe it should be ok now, I removed my aviary logo from the top of the page. The page is full of information that will help someone in need. Lots of medical information as well. I hope the changes will make it ok now. I am sure this message is in the wrong page so please delete it if needed - I just wanted to let you know i am trying to make the link ok by guessing on what needed to be changed. Thanks so much — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matrex01 (talk • contribs) 19:25, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Linking to Prager University

There's currently a TfD for {{PragerU}}, a wrapper for linking to Prager University (PU), where several people (including myself) have !voted in favour of deletion 'cause of PU itself, rather than the function of the template. Nyttend has pointed out that we should seek consensus for that elsewhere. Personally, I believe that linking to PU, on account of its overt slant, to be contrary to the spirit of the encyclopaedia. Alakzi (talk) 03:30, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Alakzi summarises my position well. The TFD has basically been a mix of "delete because the website shouldn't be linked at Wikipedia" and "keep because it's a useful way of presenting links to this website, as long as they're here". Nyttend (talk) 03:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I am the first editor of {{PragerU}}, and I'd first like to thank Alakzi for putting this discussion in the right place. As I understand it, the discussion here is just about whether Prager University lectures can be listed as "External links". This is not a proposal to blacklist the site, or otherwise prevent its use as an inline citation. Right? (I'll have more to say depending on the answer to that.) DougHill (talk) 04:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

That is correct. Alakzi (talk) 04:07, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

OK then. Under your proposal, would we still be able to link to Prager University on the Dennis Prager page, and if such a page is developed, on a Prager University page? DougHill (talk) 03:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

As the original TfD nominator, please allow me to explain the issue. Prager University is a website that publishes short videos of speeches by notable people--similar to TED Talks, but with a politically ideological goal. ([6], [7]) DougHill, the creator of the template, has added the template to every (or almost every) Prager U speaker that has his or her own article. (examples: 1, 2, 3) The question is not whether Wikipedia can link to Prager U. Rather, the question is whether links to Prager U should be systematically added as external links to all or most such articles. This strikes me as violating our policies and guidelines surrounding promotion and neutrality, specifically WP:PROMOTION, WP:ADV, WP:ELPOV, WP:ELMINOFFICIAL, and WP:BALASPS. I could certainly see a Prager U lecture being cited as a primary source in limited circumstances, but that is not at all what we have here. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:06, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Please stop saying "every" when you know it to be untrue. And please answer my two questions (this is the more appropriate forum anyway). Even if it were every lecture, which one of those specific policies would it violate? (TNTFNOT) And, are we still in violation of that policy? DougHill (talk) 03:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• this is confusing to me. There are at least three issues:
  • with regard to the template, the TfD has a note saying that discussion is ongoing here. In my view, the template is just a tool for some editor(s) to promote Prager U more conveniently, and doesn't serve any useful goal with regard to the public getting access to useful information. So delete the template.
  • With regard to the source, that would be a case by case decision with regard to the article and the content it is used for.
  • With regard to the behavior of any editor whose edits are focused on adding links to Prager to WP articles, that person would likely be warned that WP is not a vehicle for promotion, they would be warned that their account is a WP:SPA and would be asked if they have a conflict of interest or are a paid editor and warned about advocacy, and if many of the links were found to inappropriate they would probably be blocked for spamming/WP:NOTHERE. Jytdog (talk) 18:18, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

DougHill isn't an SPA, he just pivoted to Prager-related content starting in mid-December. As for forum, I would go anywhere necessary to get most of these ELs removed. They all follow of the same pattern, the EL is simply placed in the "External links" section rather than as a source for any content. It's not practical to start a discussion on each and every article talk page. I think that's what this noticeboard is for. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:06, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

As noted somewhere (TFD, if I remember rightly), and as a Dr. Fleischman says here, a few of these videos might be useful, e.g. "Person X says YYYY", cited to the video of person X saying YYYY. This would be a reasonable use of the template and the links; that's why I'm opposed to its deletion and would be opposed to an attempt to remove all links without regard to the context. If the assessment by Dr. Fleischman and Jytdog be correct, we should indeed remove most of them, but as I haven't investigated fully enough, I can't either agree or disagree with their assessment. Nyttend (talk) 22:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

It just occurred to me there's a better way to do this than to sift through DougHill's contribution history. This text search shows 22 hits for "Prager University," excluding Dennis Prager. Browsing through these hits reveals that a number of these links to Prager U are actually in inline citations rather than in "External links" sections. (My apologies to all--especially DougHill--for assuming all links were in "External links" sections.) Some of these citations appear appropriate and some do not; they will have to be addressed on an article-by-article basis (not here). This discussion is intended to be about linking to Prager University in "External links" sections. Nyttend, hopefully this addresses your question. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:34, 8 January 2015 (UTC)