Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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RfC on whether calling an event "murder" presumes the perpetrator is a "murderer".

See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography#Request for Comment: Does "murder" presume "murderer"? Or don't. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:20, July 17, 2015 (UTC)

Is it OR to translate an Anno Mundi date into a possible BC/BCE date?

This[1] is the edit being reverted by an IP. The reasoning given at the talk page for the edit is that most readers won't have a clue was to when an AM date might have been. We could, if it isn't OR, give both the Hebrew calendar and the Byzantine calendar dates. Doug Weller (talk) 13:53, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there are several different Anno Mundi time scales, so it is original research to decide which one applies (or whether one used in an ancient manuscript or ancient oral tradition is an entirely different scale). Also, in the time under consideration, 3rd millennium BCE, the Hebrew calendar depended on observations of the moon and decisions about when to intercalate a month, so it is not possible to determine what a date stated in the ancient Hebrew calendar corresponds to in any other calendar. Finally, you linked Byzantine calendar and our article says that is a variant of the Julian calendar, which wasn't created until about 2 millennia after the period under consideration. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:09, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Our article on the Byzantine calendar says it uses AM year dates. I don't know what the point of your comment about that is, I was asking whether we could give the reader any clue as to what the AM date means or if we have to leave them to research it themselves. But forget about that, the Hebrew calendar uses AM, so why can't we use that as an example date? My old university library has a link to a converter down towards the bottom of this page. There are others. Doug Weller (talk) 17:28, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

In addition to what Doug has ably argued above, using the AM date is quite useless to our readers (and to us editors, BTW!). We need some sort of milieu for context. Student7 (talk) 18:10, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

I consider the whole section to be original research because the location of the claim within the Book of Jubilees is not cited, so the citation is inadequate. If someone were to fix this problem, one would then have to find a reliable source that evaluates the statement in the Book of Jubilees to calculate what the date is in some modern notation. The editors of the version of the Book of Jubilees that would be cited in the repaired article might or might not provide that information. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:36, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

I've been reverting a Til Eulenspiegel sock there but have now, after reading the above, removed the section. It's not just NOR, there's a WP:UNDUE question also - whether this is discussed in reliable sources. I'm looking. Doug Weller (talk) 20:08, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

It was a reasonable WP:CALC, although the result should indicate a calculation and not have been given with the precision it was. Why do you call the whole section unsourced? It is sourced to the Book of Jubilees, as per this source [2], from which the text is paraphrased. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:39, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Polish census of 1931

Claims of Original Research were raised by Iryna Harpy and Faustian on the talk page over a year ago for simply translating and reporting a national census from the original. Recent revisions calculating the relevant percentages of the population by reported first language and religion have recently been reverted by the same editors with the same objection. Diff here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Polish_census_of_1931&diff=prev&oldid=684789230 Similar comments were made on the talk page by IrynaHarpy claiming simply translating a document published in French and Polish is OR. (These editors insist that the census categories of "Ukrainian" and "Ruthenian" should be combined in to one category, rather than two separate categories in fidelity to the published census.) and also claim OR for calculating the percentages. No argument or objection has been made to the math of the calculated percentages from the census numbers which is legit per WP:CALC. The original research here was done by the Polish Statistical Office in the 1930's, and it simply is being re-reported here. This is not a violation of OR, and it is standard practice to cite extensively from a national census on it WP page. (See 2010 United States Census) My concern is that OR objection has been made to censor the reported data from the census. I don't have a problem with a discussion of claims of criticism and controversy related to the census, but using erroneous claims of OR should not be accepted here to censor re-publication of what raised the issues. Neither editor will engage in discussion on the talk page for the census, but have engaged in talk related to the same on users' talk pages. I would like more eyes on this page to comment. Do we need special rules on OR for a census WP page?Doctor Franklin (talk) 16:19, 9 October 2015 (UTC) [Edit to not both Iryna Harpy and Faustian have been notified of this discussion]Doctor Franklin (talk) 16:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Er, Doctor Franklin, you appear to have redacted a number of editors who disagree with you from this WP:POINTy list of the accused editors. Should I elaborate on who they are and ping them about this 'notification'?... as well as note that you are telling rather big fibs about what the issues are? Should we also discuss the fact that you're edit warring on a couple of articles (at least) using multiple IP's? This isn't for the NORN board, it's an issue for the ANI. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:55, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

For the benefit of any editors who wish familiarise themselves with the issue, as well as establish a genuine reflection of the number of editors involved in discussions, please see the article's actual talk page. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:37, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Of the many editors discussing the matter on the talk, only the two cited here have objected or reverted the page claiming OR. They appear to be reacting emotionally to the topic. The talk page shows a clear consensus to use the original census data to illustrate the category of "mother tongue" through tables or charts. The two editors named here have not noted a specific error or problem despite the claim above of "telling big fibs" or claims of extrapolation on the talk page. The OR claim here is very much WP:IDON'TLIKEIT. From the broader issue of the WP project, I believe that we may need to refine the primary source guidelines to reflect existing standard practice on other censuses in order to avoid future disruption to census pages from those with emotional reactions to census reports of languages, religions, ethnic groups, etc.Doctor Franklin (talk) 14:48, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Please do not misrepresent my position or the situation here. I made one reversion: [3] with the edit summary "restore previous version, pending discussion." You were also reverted here by a third editor: [4] with the summary "Talk page please. conversation has been happening there for a while".Faustian (talk) 05:42, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps Faustian can regale us with how I misrepresented his position? Faustian wrote on the talk page, "The IP engages in OR using primary sources...Faustian (talk) 15:03, 28 September 2014 (UTC)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish_census_of_1931#Regarding_manipulation Faustian reverted over a year later without further discussion on the talk page. For over a year after the objections of Faustian and Iryna Harpy, many other editors edited the page without agreeing with the contention of these two editors that special rules applied to a document from the Polish government published in Polish. Thus, the consensus was that it was acceptable to translate the document, and re-report the results published by the Polish government. When that same information was put in a chart form with WP:CALC percentages, there was again an attempt to reverse the consensus on that point, without meaningful discussion on the talk page rather than constructive criticism of what was posted. (And I did remove some text in response to Iryna Harpy's comments on her talk page.) Since the third reverter failed to engage in discussion on the talk page, those comments were considered nothing more than a drive by POV blanking. Since there was an attempt to reverse consensus, the burden was on those trying to revert to form consensus on the talk page that special rules applied to documents from the Polish government.Doctor Franklin (talk) 06:20, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

My words from over a year ago: ""The IP engages in OR using primary sources " were in reference to your behavior on other articles and in statements such as this [5]: "In doing so, they demonstrate their own POV and agenda, which is particularly noticeable in the disappearance of the non-Ukrainian Ruthenians. Where did they go? Siberia? Kazakhstan? Former German territory in post war Poland? Executed? Emigrated to the West? These questions need answers, and not the typical nationalist Ukrainian white-washing of history." You are clearly pushing some kind of fringe view the 1+ million "Ruthenians" on the Polish census were a nationality separate from Ukrainians that somehow disappeared through ethnic cleansing. Your efforts here and on the article are an attempt by you to push this fringe view. Also, Referring to the third editor's edit as "POV blanking" is an assumption of bad faith. By " many other editors" do you refer you the numerous IPs you use to edit? Those seem to be the ones adding the contentious stuff. It seems that you struggle to gain consensus on the article over many years. Faustian (talk) 12:38, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Reviews of "A Biography of No Place", in which Kate Brown insists that we cannot know the past of the Kresy by looking at the present homogenized people and culture: “Kate Brown tells the story of how succeeding regimes transformed a onetime multiethnic borderland into a far more ethnically homogeneous region through their often murderous imperialist and nationalist projects. She writes evocatively of the inhabitants’ frequently challenged identities and livelihoods and gives voice to their aspirations and laments, including Poles, Ukrainians, Germans, Jews, and Russians. A Biography of No Place is a provocative meditation on the meanings of periphery and center in the writing of history.”—Mark von Hagen, Professor of History, Columbia University http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674019492&content=reviews I will not take credit for what others did.Doctor Franklin (talk) 04:02, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

No mention of "Ruthenians" or of "Ruthenians" being a different ethnicity from Ukrainians. Actually, a googlebook search indicates that the term "Ruthenians" isn't even used in that book.Faustian (talk) 04:37, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Kate Brown got access to the Soviet archives and noted the homogenization of these languages in a Biography Of No Place. She noted a group of Catholics in the region who spoke a transitional Polish-Ukrainian language. The Soviets first labeled them Poles and educated them in standard Polish. Then, they declared them Ukrainians, and educated them in standard Ukrainian. She noted that the people were difficult to classify in the region, but the various governing groups were constantly trying to place them in categories that didn't quite fit. You appear to be pushing a nationalist POV here that fails to appreciate the ethnic diversity of the region, and misstates the ethnic situation in the Second Polish Repubic: "Thus, Ukrainains in Poland had representation at the higest levels of government. (The vice-marshal of the Polish Sejm, Vasyl Mudryi, was Ukrainian.) That they did not hold more seats was due in part to the fact that a good number of the Ukrainian people voted for Polish lists, especially in the 1930 parliamentary elections. In addition, about 10 percent of the Ruthenian population tended to vote for lists put forth by Ruthenian groups, who did not consider themselves Ukrainian and were opposed to the Ukrainian separtist movement. These groups were always loyal to Poland." Tadeusz Piotrowski, "Polands Holocaust" (1998) https://books.google.com/books?id=hC0-dk7vpM8C&pg=PR14&dq=Polish+census+ukrainians+1931&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DyEoVKP9GpD4yQSAHw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=ruthenian&f=false

I believe user Doctor Franklin is editing in good faith on this topic. The published data on the 1931 Polish census for religion and language by province were published in Poland in Polish and French. This is a reliable secondary source. I see no problem posting these figures as long as we remain faithful to the source. The dispute arose over the category in the census over the "Ruski" language( this is not Russian-rosyiski which is another category on the census) which was known at that time in English as Ruthenian and is today synonymous with Ukrainian in modern historical sources. Nobody in the Western Ukraine today uses the term "Ruski" when describing their language or national identity. For example some Americans identify as "African American" or "Black", in 1930 their grandparents referred to themselves as "negro" or "colored", terms that are viewed as pejorative today. The Polish census of 1931 listed the paternal/native language of persons, the language most often used. For example 17% of Jews listed Polish as their native language and are included as "Poles" by some historians. We also need to see a table by religion which would give the readers a more realistic view of ethnic identity in prewar Poland .--Woogie10w (talk) 18:03, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Franklin wants to use the 1931 census to breakout the population of the regions in the east of Poland that were ceded to the USSR in 1945. I pointed out to him that he is spinning wheels in his attempt to derive this data. The Polish government in 1941 did publish data on the territories occupied by the USSR but these figures include a portion returned to Poland in 1945. The US Census Bureau did publish a study in 1954 which gave a breakout by language and religion of the territory which was ceded to the USSR in 1945. --Woogie10w (talk) 18:16, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

No, this is about publishing from the original 1931 census EXACTLY. There are population summaries for each major city and voivod: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Polish_census_of_1931 See discussion on the talk page again. This is about what was reverted by these editors, which had nothing to do with land seized by occupying Soviet troops without consent of the legitimate Polish government in London.Doctor Franklin (talk) 08:08, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

The US Census report on Poland is a a reliable source based on that fact that it received a favorable review by the peer reviewed academic journal The Professional Geographer . [6]---Woogie10w (talk) 18:21, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Could you please clarify your position a little further, Woogie10w. Given that Doctor Franklin was misusing this noticeboard in order to cast WP:ASPERSIONS on both Faustian and myself, in supporting him as being a good faith editor, are you - conversely - supporting his assertion that Faustian and I were the only editors who reverted his content additions and changes, and that he is correct in targeting us here, here and here, characterising our position on the issue as being grounded in our "ethnic animus" (sic), and ipso facto being bad faith editors? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

What I actually stated, "Of the many editors discussing the matter on the talk, only the two cited here have objected or reverted the page claiming OR. They appear to be reacting emotionally to the topic."Doctor Franklin (talk) 04:57, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Repeating, "The two editors named here have not noted a specific error or problem despite the claim above of "telling big fibs" or claims of extrapolation on the talk page."Doctor Franklin (talk) 05:02, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Please do not misrepresent my position or the situation here. I made one reversion: [7] with the edit summary "restore previous version, pending discussion." You were also reverted here by a third editor: [8] with the summary "Talk page please. conversation has been happening there for a while".Faustian (talk) 05:46, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps Faustian can regale us with how I misrepresented his position? Faustian wrote on the talk page, "The IP engages in OR using primary sources...Faustian (talk) 15:03, 28 September 2014 (UTC)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish_census_of_1931#Regarding_manipulation Faustian reverted over a year later without further discussion on the talk page. For over a year after the objections of Faustian and Iryna Harpy, many other editors edited the page without agreeing with the contention of these two editors that special rules applied to a document from the Polish government published in Polish. Thus, the consensus was that it was acceptable to translate the document, and re-report the results published by the Polish government. When that same information was put in a chart form with WP:CALC percentages, there was again an attempt to reverse the consensus on that point, without meaningful discussion on the talk page rather than constructive criticism of what was posted. (And I did remove some text in response to Iryna Harpy's comments on her talk page.) Since the third reverter failed to engage in discussion on the talk page, those comments were considered nothing more than a drive by POV blanking. Since there was an attempt to reverse consensus, the burden was on those trying to revert to form consensus on the talk page that special rules applied to documents from the Polish government.Doctor Franklin (talk) 06:20, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

My words from over a year ago: ""The IP engages in OR using primary sources " were in reference to your behavior on other articles and in statements such as this [9]: "In doing so, they demonstrate their own POV and agenda, which is particularly noticeable in the disappearance of the non-Ukrainian Ruthenians. Where did they go? Siberia? Kazakhstan? Former German territory in post war Poland? Executed? Emigrated to the West? These questions need answers, and not the typical nationalist Ukrainian white-washing of history." You are clearly pushing some kind of fringe view the 1+ million "Ruthenians" on the Polish census were a nationality separate from Ukrainians that somehow disappeared through ethnic cleansing. Your efforts here and on the article are an attempt by you to push this fringe view. Also, Referring to the third editor's edit as "POV blanking" is an assumption of bad faith. By " many other editors" do you refer you the numerous IPs you use to edit? Those seem to be the ones adding the contentious stuff. It seems that you struggle to gain consensus on the article over many years.Faustian (talk) 12:52, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Reviews of "A Biography of No Place", in which Kate Brown insists that we cannot know the past of the Kresy by looking at the present homogenized people and culture: “Kate Brown tells the story of how succeeding regimes transformed a onetime multiethnic borderland into a far more ethnically homogeneous region through their often murderous imperialist and nationalist projects. She writes evocatively of the inhabitants’ frequently challenged identities and livelihoods and gives voice to their aspirations and laments, including Poles, Ukrainians, Germans, Jews, and Russians. A Biography of No Place is a provocative meditation on the meanings of periphery and center in the writing of history.”—Mark von Hagen, Professor of History, Columbia University http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674019492&content=reviews I will not take credit for what others did. Doctor Franklin (talk) 04:02, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

No mention of "Ruthenians" or of "Ruthenians" being a different ethnicity from Ukrainians. Actually, a googlebook search indicates that the term "Ruthenians" isn't even used in that book.Faustian (talk) 04:37, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Kate Brown got access to the Soviet archives and noted the homogenization of these languages in a Biography Of No Place. She noted a group of Catholics in the region who spoke a transitional Polish-Ukrainian language. The Soviets first labeled them Poles and educated them in standard Polish. Then, they declared them Ukrainians, and educated them in standard Ukrainian. She noted that the people were difficult to classify in the region, but the various governing groups were constantly trying to place them in categories that didn't quite fit. You appear to be pushing a nationalist POV here that fails to appreciate the ethnic diversity of the region, and misstates the ethnic situation in the Second Polish Repubic: "Thus, Ukrainains in Poland had representation at the higest levels of government. (The vice-marshal of the Polish Sejm, Vasyl Mudryi, was Ukrainian.) That they did not hold more seats was due in part to the fact that a good number of the Ukrainian people voted for Polish lists, especially in the 1930 parliamentary elections. In addition, about 10 percent of the Ruthenian population tended to vote for lists put forth by Ruthenian groups, who did not consider themselves Ukrainian and were opposed to the Ukrainian separtist movement. These groups were always loyal to Poland."Tadeusz Piotrowski, "Polands Holocaust" (1998) https://books.google.com/books?id=hC0-dk7vpM8C&pg=PR14&dq=Polish+census+ukrainians+1931&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DyEoVKP9GpD4yQSAHw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=ruthenian&f=false

Trying not to take sides in this long-running debate, but a comment is in order: When a government conducts a census, the documents or forms where information about individuals is recorded are primary documents sources, but the report issued by the government after the data has been analyzed is a secondary document source. (Note: edited for clarity)  | ✉ | ✓  04:08, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, Etamni you appear to be mistaken. WP:PRIMARY: " a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment. " A primary source is not the raw data (such as surveys, or in this case the census forms) used in the study (the census), but the published study itself. So the published census in the primary source. Not the raw data used by the authors of the census. The secondary sources are scholarly works about the census, and a tertiary source would be a general works such as Encyclopedia Britannica that summarizes what secondary sources conclude.Faustian (talk) 05:53, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

You are correct, thank you for the clarification--Woogie10w (talk) 04:11, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

@Etamni: When the results were introduced initially, it was the primary source that was drawn on. As for the analysis being drawn on now, yes, that constitutes a secondary source. The primary issue at stake is that it is a 1936 census, the veracity of which has been questioned by a number of historians as the methodology for ethnic self-identification and languages spoken as being questionable in themselves (remembering that the majority of adult peasants would have been illiterate, and that the likelihood that households would have received a questionnaire to be filled out in the privacy of their own home in a language they could communicate in is zero to none). Therefore, while the published analysis may be WP:RS in that sense, does it not make it a WP:BIASED source to be treated with care drawing on the scholarly debate over its accuracy? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:33, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Non, You want it to be the primary source, but the census forms from the enumerators are the primary source, the published census is the secondary source, the historians commenting on the original published census, are tertiary sources of very limited usefullness, and not to be used to contradict the original, and the historians commenting based upon other tertiary sources that the census had a flaw in its methodology for "ethnic self-identification" are worthless because the census never intended to measure ethnicity. Also note that historians are not necessarily trained ethnographers or ethnologists. Please regale us with a RS that the census was conducted by mail. This sounds like your OR.Doctor Franklin (talk) 05:09, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

If we post to Wikipedia that historian Mary Doe says bla bla ba re the Polish census, the schedule from the Polish Census office used to illustrate her analysis is acceptable.

If Historian Mary Doe researches and studies the original census surveys, then publishes about it, she is a secondary source. If she reads the published census itself and comments on it, she is the tertiary source. If she reads a tertiary source, like comments from another historian or reads excerpts from the U.S. Census Office, and makes statements that the census had a failed methodology for determining ethnicity, when it never intended to measure ethnicity, then her opinion is worthless.

If editor Joe Shmow posts some unsupported remarks re the Polish census and uses schedule from the Polish Census office to support his OR, this is clearly unacceptable.

If Joe Shmow researches and studies the original census surveys, then publishes about it on WP, it is OR. If he cites from the published census, it is RS secondary source.

IMO this topic should not be here at all. It is an unnecessary waste of time for Iryna, Faustian and myself. Editor Dr. Franklin needs to go back to the talk page of the Polish Census of 1931 with reliable sources to support his POV and not to expect this NO OR notice page to give him a green light for his OR. He is a good faith editor that needs to become familiar with the rules on Wikipedia.

The claim of OR was raised on the talk page. The broader community can now judge the issue.Doctor Franklin (talk) 02:52, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Lets get back to improving the article and end this food fight--Woogie10w (talk) 04:42, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Returning to Iryna Harpy's contention on her talk page that translations are OR: "It is not an English language document, and is written using Polish and French nomenclature. Your translations are WP:OR simply because, in the document, the Polish nomenclature and the French nomenclature used by the Polish census office for Ruthenes and Ruski, etc., needs to be qualified by WP:RS, not by you." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Iryna_Harpy#Disruptive_Editing_of_the_Polish_census_of_1931 Can we all agree that this was not correct since the OR page says it is not: "Translations and transcriptions Faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Translations_and_transcriptions Now, I did put that quote directly on her talk page... Can we all agree that Iryna Harpy has misunderstood that rule, or does she contend that this rule is inapplicable to documents from the Polish government or Polish authors published in Polish? This is an important point, because accepting the normal rule will require that Iryna Harpy assume good faith of other editors on the page who are quite capable of translating standard Polish words like polski, ukrainski, ruski, bialoruski, rosyjski, czeski, litewski, niemiecki, zydowski, hebrajski to Polish, Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Belarussian, Russian, Czech, Lithuanian, German, Yiddish, and Hebrew. If she does not accept the normal rule means that documents from the Polish government and Polish scholars may be excluded from consideration without a translation into English by someone that Iryna Harpy and Faustian accept as RS, which will continue to disrupt the page.Doctor Franklin (talk) 05:53, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

The only precedent potentially being set is the allowance of OR under duress. Considering that I've added Polish language sources as references (using my own translations) in order to enhance articles makes your contention ludicrous. What is at issue is not the straight forward use of sources in languages other than English, but the massaging of meaning where there are RS establishing that a straight translation of the source is misleading. The meanings you are trying to ascribe are contested as being politically motivated by scholars who are experts in the field: you are not the expert. Go back to the ongoing discussion on the relevant talk page and stop abusing this noticeboard. You are manipulating its purpose. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:11, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, Ma Chéri, the precedent being set here is that you admit to translating words when it advances your POV, but make false claims of OR when it doesn't. This is about WP:WINNING with you. The language categories only have one translation in this context. What the Ruthenian language (or likely languages) were is for scholars to debate. What cannot be denied is that a group of people existed and identified their language as "Ruthenian" not "Ukrainian". You WP:IDON'TLIKEIT, but WP isn't WP:CENSORED.Doctor Franklin (talk) 03:48, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I have six reliable sources that group the Ukrainians and Ruthenians together as "Ukrainian" There was no separate language Ruthenian. The term Ruthenian was used by some persons for the Ukrainian language.

• Norman Davies Gods Playground Vol. 2 P406
• Pitor Eberhardt Ethnic Groups and Population Changes in Twentieth Century Eastern Europe: History, Data and Analysis: History, Data and Analysis Pages 113 and 117
• Robert Magocsi Historical Atlas of East Central Europe (History of East Central Europe) P. 131
• Polish government in exile, Mały rocznik statystyczny Polski : wrzesień 1939 - czerwiec 1941 [London]: p.9
• Tadeusz Piotrowski Poland's Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces and Genocide in the Second Republic, 1918-1947 pages 294 and 353

• US Census Bureau, The Population of Poland Ed. W. Parker Mauldin, Washington-1954. pp. 74,75, 148 and 149 (The US Census report on Poland is a a reliable source based on that fact that it received a favorable review by the peer reviewed academic journal The Professional Geographer . [10]

I can send jpgs via Dropbox of these cited sources. Please contact me by Wiki E mail. The sources speak for themselves, we do not need to blog all day about this.--Woogie10w (talk) 16:39, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

The data from the 1931 Polish census is a primary source. According this City Univ of NY guide on the use of sources, "census statistics" are a primary source. [11] We need to see academic analysis of the 1931 Polish census by reliable academic sources rather than depending on the musings of Dr. Franklin on primary source materials.--Woogie10w (talk) 16:52, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

No, you have misrepresented City Univ of NY on this. Only the original survey forms from the census are OR. The published report is secondary, and it is standard practice here on WP to cite the published census as RS on itself and what it reported. Why should a Polish census be treated differently? You are misstating Pitrowski: "Thus, Ukrainains in Poland had representation at the higest levels of government. (The vice-marshal of the Polish Sejm, Vasyl Mudryi, was Ukrainian.) That they did not hold more seats was due in part to the fact that a good number of the Ukrainian people voted for Polish lists, especially in the 1930 parliamentary elections. In addition, about 10 percent of the Ruthenian population tended to vote for lists put forth by Ruthenian groups, who did not consider themselves Ukrainian and were opposed to the Ukrainian separatist movement. These groups were always loyal to Poland." Tadeusz Piotrowski, "Polands Holocaust" (1998) https://books.google.com/books?id=hC0-dk7vpM8C&pg=PR14&dq=Polish+census+ukrainians+1931&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DyEoVKP9GpD4yQSAHw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=ruthenian&f=false He clearly notes two separate categories which he combines from the census:https://books.google.com/books?id=hC0-dk7vpM8C&pg=PR14&dq=Polish+census+ukrainians+1931&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DyEoVKP9GpD4yQSAHw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=ruthenian&f=false Of course, Polish historians who interview witnesses in the region also note the differnce, including threats of violence by the Ukrainain nationalists against the ethnic Ruthenians opposed to their separatist movement: Henryk Komański and Szczepan Siekierka, Ludobójstwo dokonane przez nacjonalistów ukraińskich na Polakach w województwie tarnopolskim w latach 1939-1946 (2006) 2 volumes, 1182 pages, at pg. 203. That is not my OR, but you wish to cite a foreign governments re-interpretation of the 1931 Census 23 years later without any evidence that they examined the original census surveys or questioned the enumerators, which is to say they reclassified the secondary published report. Thus that is to say this is a tertiary source not to be used to impeach the original for political reasons (The Second Red Scare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare#Second_Red_Scare_.281947.E2.80.9357.29). No one on the talk page has agreed with you on this point. It is an extraordinary thing for one government to re-interpret another nation's census like this 23 YEARS LATER! Kate Brown's more recent account from the Soviet archives in "A Biography of No Place" is contrary to the assumptions of those at the U.S. Census office. Eberhardt is a geographer who specifically noted that his work was not for use ethnography or ethnology, which is exactly what you want to use that source for and have no consensus to do so in the talk page. Lastly note usage of the term "Ukrainian" includes geographical, political, and ethnic meanings. Timothy Snyder notes his usage of that term carefully on pg. ix of "The Reconstruction Of Nations". He clearly did not state he intended the word to mean ethnicity, and other authors may also not intend an ethnic meaning to the word.Doctor Franklin (talk) 17:51, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Edit to note that over a year ago, the U.S. Census's above mentioned tertiary work was replaced by the editors of the page with the data from the published Polish census of 1931. Only one person here wants to return to using that inaccurate, dated, and politically biased source instead of the original published census. Doctor Franklin (talk) 18:16, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Guys, you need to back up for a moment. "Secondary" is WP:NOTGOODSOURCE. "Primary" is not some fancy Wikipedia way of saying "bad source". And if you are adding material that really, truly is published in some other source—say, a primary source from a census bureau–then it is absolutely not original research. WP:Original research is when you add material that is not published in any source at all.

Original census forms, and even a number of original census reports, are indeed primary sources. You are allowed to use primary sources sometimes. In fact, primary sources happen to be the most authoritative and best possible sources for some kinds of claims. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:02, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

The objection I have is that user Doctor Franklin is proposing OR using the census data that is not backed up with another published reliable source. I have cited six reliable sources that group Ukrainian and Ruthenian together. I can E mail page copies via Dropbox. --Woogie10w (talk) 22:11, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

No, that's not original research. It might be many other policy violations, most especially including WP:UNDUE, but it is not original research. If the Wikipedia article says "X", and any source in the whole world—including a source that isn't even cited!—says (exactly) "X", then it's not original research. Original research == putting something in a Wikipedia article that is not present in any published source. If it's present in even one published source (yes, just one, in any language, in the whole history of the world), then it cannot actually be original research.

But what worries me about this dispute is that there's so much effort being spent on getting the source "labeled". Instead of arguing over whether the census report is primary or secondary (answer: different fields give it different labels), or whether this is original research or some other policy violation, I think that your time would be better spent talking about what an ideal source would look like, and seeing whether you can find that even-better source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:49, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

OK, can you please look at 1930 United States Census and tell me how we can remove the refs to that census and improve the page since its all OR or a violation of WP:PRIMARY according to these editors? How many communist social scientists should we cite as RS on it so we can remove the actual census report tables?Doctor Franklin (talk) 02:40, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

OK, all well and good. The Polish census has the language descriptions Ukrainian and Ruthenian. Reliable secondary sources combine them because they are descriptions of the same language. Reliable sources Tadeusz Piotrowski Poland's Holocaust: and the US Census Bureau, The Population of Poland point out that the description Ruthenian was used by persons who were loyal to Poland while Ukrainian was used by those who were nationalists. A good analogy would be the United States in the 1960's when the term "Black" became used instead of "Negro".--Woogie10w (talk) 23:25, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

This edit that was deleted is an example of the OR and extreme POV of user Doctor Franklin [12] , --Woogie10w (talk) 23:34, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

It has been pointed out to Doctor Franklin that reliable sources Pitor Eberhardt Ethnic Groups and Population Changes, Tadeusz Piotrowski Poland's Holocaust: and the US Census Bureau, The Population of Poland maintain that the 1931 census classified Ukrainians and Belorussians as Poles and was unreliable. Doctor Franklin dismisses these reliable sources and put forward his own OR that this was a conspiracy theory of the Polish Jew Hartglas and the communists in Poland who made the claim that the census was falsified. --Woogie10w (talk) 00:47, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

There you go again using the ORNB to lobby for sources other than the Census itself to report its results. You consider the Polish census OR, when it was the work of the Polish Statistical Office. Again, in short, Eberhardt is a geographer, not an ethnographer or ethnologist, and he specifically wrote that his work was not to be used for that purpose. Piotrowski did in fact present the data from this census, and also presented an ethnic interpolation of that data from a Polish Communist Party historian. The U.S. Census Bureau is not RS for reinterpreting another nation's national census to interpolate ethnicity 23 years later, especially since the U.S. Census Bureau did not determine ethnicity in its own census. I did not attribute any conspiracy theory to Mr. Hartglas. I believe that he may have republished an alleged communist era confession from the man in charge of this census which was first published 11 years after his death. I do not appreciate the innuendo.Doctor Franklin (talk) 06:34, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I can provide jpgs of the pages in Eberhardt , Piotrowski and the US Census study, contact me by Wiki email and I will forward copies via Dropbox of the pages that support the argument that the results of 1931 census are disputed. User Doctor Franklin made this edit re Apolinary Hartglas,[13] Here is the CV of Piotr Eberhardt [14]. His work has encompassed ethnic changes in 20th century eastern Europe.The US Census report on Poland received this favorable review by the peer reviewed academic journal The Professional Geographer . [15]-Piotrowski in Poland's Holocaust p. 143 described the 1931 census as "unreliable" and on p. 294 he maintained that it "involved questionable methodology , especially the use of mother tongue as an indicator of nationality" -Woogie10w (talk) 09:50, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Good. Be sure to provide a jpg of 3 where Eberhardt, the doctor of geography, wrote, "The focus of this book is on the geographic and demographic questions rather than on ethnology or ethnography." Thus not RS for purposes of ethnology or ethnography, what extrapolating ethnicity from a census which surveyed religion and mother tongue is. Also provide everyone with a jpg. of pg. 499 which shows Polish Communist Party Historian Jerzy Tomaszewski interpolations of the census in the bibliography as the source for the numbers used in his charts. Also, please send everyone a jpg of Jerzy Tomaszewski's Polish Communist Party card, so we can clearly see that you wish to use recycled communist propaganda on the page, without labeling it as such, and we thus go from Wikipedia to Commipedia. Everyone should know this is the real issue here: Do we allow Poland's last census to be reported as a RS of itself, or do we rely on Communist Party historians like Jerzy Tomaszewski (who ignore the intentional destruction of the archive in Lwow/Lviv/Lvov by the Soviets, see Norman Davies, God's Playground, a History of Poland, Columbia University Press, 1982, ISBN 0231053525, p.558) to interpret the data for us without identifying them as such?

Piotrowski reported both the official returns and Tomaszewski's interpolation of them. While most would agree with him that interpolating census of surveys of mother tongue and religion is an unreliable way to estimate ethnicity, that remains his opinion. The implied criticism of the census methodology, also his opinion, assumes that the Polish government had intended to measure ethnicity. (The U.S. 1930 Census did not ask an ethnicity question either, but only asked a mother tongue question to immigrants while the Poles surveyed mother tongue and religion of all its citizens.) Yale's Timothy Snyder noted that after Pilsudski returned to power in 1926, '"state assimilation" rather than "national assimilation" was Polish policy: citizens were to be judged by their loyalty to the state, and not nationality'. The census reflects that policy. Contrary to the conspiracy allegations that the census was rigged, the percentage of Jews in the population increased, and Polish speakers decreased, from the previous census. You could look it up...

Lastly, please remember that the NORNB is not the place to seek approval of sources which editors on the talk page have rejected.Doctor Franklin (talk) 02:28, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• I want to see if I understand the dispute... stripping away all the POV. If I understand correctly, the census in question used the Polish term "Ruski" to describe a group of people living in Poland back in 1931. English language sources that were contemporary with the census translated this term as "Ruthenian". More modern English language sources translate it as "Ukrainian"... and the dispute is essentially over which translation to use. Have I summarized the issue correctly?

If so... my suggestion is to present both translations. Mention that the word has been translated in different ways at different times. Blueboar (talk) 01:55, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Webster Sycamore Image

I started a discussion at Is File:Webster_Sycamore_Webster_Springs_WV_1920.jpg really the Webster Sycamore? concerning an image that was added to the lead of the Webster Sycamore article. I was reviewing the article and complained that the article needed more pictures to illustrate the subject matter better when a user added another image of an American Sycamore with the claim that it was the Webster Sycamore. When I checked the reference source though it didn't really support the claim. And the image was grainy and slightly wrong since it wasn't leaning to the left considerably like the Webster Sycamore did. I was wondering if I could get some feedback from some experienced users on this noticeboard concerning whether this would be orignial research. For example, is it considered original research to infer things from visual inspection of an image that isn't in written form in the source material? In this particular case the user is inferring that this is the same exact tree because it looks big and is said to be in the same town. I don't know where wiki policy would be in this type of situation and wanted to get some feedback from experienced users of this noticeboard concerning this question.Chhe (talk) 22:04, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Definition of Jews. Gross original research/WP:SYNTH violation

The Jews (Template:Lang-he-n ISO 259-3 Yehudim, Israeli pronunciation [jehuˈdim]), also known as the Jewish people, are a Semitic ethnoreligious group and nation native to the Land of Israel, also referred to as an ethno-cultural group and a civilization. With origins dating back to the early 2nd millennium BCE, they are descended from the Israelites and the historical kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

The above is a palmary example of WP:SYNTH, 19 distinct sources each culled carefully to buttress one of several elements in the definition. Though this point has been noted over the years, no editor will emend it to bring the definition in line with customary Wikipedia definitions of a people. I have no intention of meddling in this myself, but something should be done. The problems are manifold, but let me show some RS that challenge this inventive description.

• Morris N. Kertzer What is a Jew?, Simon and Schuster, 1996 p.7 says fundamentally all Jews are Jews by choice and that the ‘ethnic definition is going the way of the dinosaur.' 'It is difficult to find a single definition of a Jew. A Jew is one who accepts the faith of Judaism. That is the religious definition.' Katzer is saying our definition is a nonsense.
• Jacob Neusner (ed.) World Religions in America, Fourth Edition: An Introduction, Westminster John Knox Press, 2009 p.139 reads 'Israel once was a nation ("during its national life") but today is not a nation.' yet our definition is assures the reader it (the people, not the country) is a nation.
• Michael Walzer,Menachem Lorberbaum,Noam J. Zohar (eds) The Jewish Political Tradition: Membership, Yale University Press 2006. You are not necessarily a Jew if born of a Jewish mother, which is the halakhic criterion for being a Jew. See the case of Oswald Rufeisen outlined here, who was denied by the Supreme Court the status of being a Jew because he had converted to Catholicism and became a Carmelite monk. This means our definition is a nonsense.
• Michael Greenstein The American Jew: A Contradiction in Terms, Gefen Publishing House Ltd, 1990 pp.1ff.pp.7-8 argues a Jew is a Jew by virtue of their self definition and awareness of this identity.
• Marc Lee Raphael, Judaism in America, Columbia University Press, 2012 pp.22
• Alain F. Corcos Who is a Jew? Thoughts of a Biologist : An Essay Dedicated to the Jewish and Non-Jewish Victims of the Nazi Holocaust, Wheatmark, 2012 Ist chapter. Corcos is a biologist of Jewish descent from Holocaust survivors on both sides who, unlike his brother, denies he is a Jew, because he has no religious interest in, or practice of, Judaism, and is opposed to any classification of Jews in terms of 'ethnic', 'racial' or 'descent' arguments.
• Gideon Doron,Arye Naor,Assaf Meydan, Law and Government in Israel, Routledge, 2013 p.10. In Israel the concept is ambiguous, denoting a particular form of culture and religion, but also a distinct nationality. The government has one definition, the Orthodox another, and both differ from Conservative and Reform Judaism's approach.
• Ellen Levy-Coffman A Mosaic of people: The Jewish Story and a reassessment of the DNA evidence,' Journal of Genetic Genealogy, Fall 2007

Jewish ancestry reflects a mosaic of genetic sources. While earlier studies focused on the Middle Eastern component of Jewish DNA, new research has revealed that both Europeans and Central Asians also made significant genetic contributions to Jewish ancestry. Moreover, while the DNA studies have confirmed the close genetic interrelatedness of many Jewish communities, they have also confirmed what many suspected all along: Jews do not constitute a single group distinct from all others. Rather, modern Jews exhibit a diversity of genetic profiles, some reflective of their Semitic/Mediterranean ancestry, but others suggesting an origin in European and Central Asian groups. The blending of European, Semitic, Central Asian and Mediterranean heritage over the centuries has led to today’s Jewish populations. . . Diversity was present from Jewish beginnings, when various Semitic and Mediterranean peoples came together to form the Israelites of long ago. The genetic picture was clearly enriched during the Diaspora, when Jews spread far and wide across Europe, attracting converts and intermarrying over time with their European hosts. The most recent DNA evidence indicates that from this blending of Middle Eastern and European ancestors, the diverse DNA ancestry of the Ashkenazi Jews emerged.' Ellen Levy-Coffman, A mosaic of peoples: The Jewish story and a reassessment of the DNA evidence,'

• Louis H. Feldman, Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World: Attitudes and Interactions from Alexander to Justinian, Princeton University Press 1996 pp.288ff. Proselytization and concomitant conversion was a significant component of early Judaism, so successful that Rome passed edicts banning Jews from converting Romans. Those converts and their descendants jar with our definition.

Our text assures us Jews all come from the West Bank and Galilee (Israel and Judah). Genetic studies show Jews come from all over the place, and are not to be defined exclusively as 'Semitic'.

One could go on endlessly, for this is all obvious. The problem is, that highly political synthetic definition, with I believe no parallel on any other wiki people/ethnos page, is irremovable, or unalterable. The only solution is to define Jews according to one or two acceptable high quality sources, and not, as here, patch up a jerry-rigged definition for which one can find no single source that validates its 'accuracy'. Advice would be appreciated. Am I the only person here who can see that this is a gross WP:SYNTH definition?Nishidani (talk) 20:01, 20 October 2015 (UTC)