Talk:India

This talk page is automatically archived by Werdnabot. Any sections older than 7 days are automatically archived to Talk:India/Archive 23. Sections without timestamps are not archived.

Project Countries main pageTalkParticipantsTemplatesArticlesPicturesTo doArticle assessmentCountries portal

This WikiProject helps develop country-related pages (of all types) and works toward standardizing the formats of sets and types of country-related pages. For example, the sets of Culture of x, Administrative divisions of x, and Demographics of x articles, etc. – (where "x" is a country name) – and the various types of pages, like stubs, categories, etc.

WikiProject Countries articles as of April 5, 2024

What's new?

Article alerts

Did you know

• 29 Jul 2024 – Upper Skagit Indian Tribe (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by PersusjCP (t · c); see discussion

Categories for discussion

• 21 Jul 2024 – Category:Armenian Catholic churches by country (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Marcocapelle (t · c); see discussion
• 20 Jul 2024 – Category:People with multiple nationality (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Marcocapelle (t · c); see discussion

Good article nominees

• 17 Jul 2024 – Sultanate of Bijapur (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Flemmish Nietzsche (t · c); start discussion
• 19 Apr 2024 – First Republic of Armenia (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Olympian (t · c); start discussion
• 06 Mar 2024 – Rai dynasty (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by TrangaBellam (t · c); start discussion

Featured article reviews

• 30 Oct 2023 – Byzantine Empire (talk · edit · hist) was put up for FA review by SandyGeorgia (t · c); see discussion

Requests for comments

• 29 Jul 2024 – Taiwan (talk · edit · hist) RfC by ZeehanLin (t · c) was closed; see discussion

Peer reviews

• 06 Mar 2024 – Nezak Huns (talk · edit · hist) has been put up for PR by TrangaBellam (t · c); see discussion

Requested moves

• 24 Jul 2024 – Austro-Hungarian rule in Bosnia and Herzegovina (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to Austro-Hungarian Bosnia and Herzegovina by AVNOJ1989 (t · c); see discussion
• 20 Jul 2024 – Berar Sultanate (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to Berar sultanate by Dicklyon (t · c); see discussion
• 05 Jul 2024 – Ashanti Empire (talk · edit · hist) move request to Asante Empire by Kowal2701 (t · c) was moved to Asante Empire (talk · edit · hist) by BilledMammal (t · c) on 28 Jul 2024; see discussion

Articles to be merged

• 06 May 2024 – General Command of the Armed Forces of South Russia (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Armed Forces of South Russia by Nederlandse Leeuw (t · c); see discussion
• 25 Feb 2024 – Spanish East Indies (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Captaincy General of the Philippines by Mr. Information1409 (t · c); see discussion
• 16 Feb 2024 – Sierra Leone (1961–1971) (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Sierra Leone by Snow Lion Fenian (t · c); see discussion

Articles to be split

• 20 Jun 2024 – Xianbei (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Kepler-1229b (t · c); see discussion
• 02 Jun 2024 – Special administrative regions of China (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by 61.244.64.116 (t · c); see discussion
• 31 Dec 2023 – Schengen Area (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Super Dromaeosaurus (t · c); see discussion
• 02 Jan 2023 – Prince-Bishopric of Lübeck (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Srnec (t · c); see discussion
• 02 May 2021 – Vargas Era (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by FredModulars (t · c); see discussion
• 18 Apr 2021 – Jamaica (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Goszei (t · c); see discussion

Articles for creation

• 29 Jul 2024 – Draft:Kingdom of Kashmir (1754–1762) (talk · edit · hist) has been submitted for AfC by Iwaqarhashmi (t · c)
• 23 Jul 2024 – Draft:Nawayath Sultanate (talk · edit · hist) has been submitted for AfC by FakeInfoDetector (t · c)
• 19 May 2024 – Draft:Republic of Taiwan Provisional Government (talk · edit · hist) has been submitted for AfC by Qwerfjkl (bot) (t · c)
• undated – Draft:Vahika (talk · edit · hist) has been submitted for AfC

Updated daily by AAlertBot — Discuss? / Report bug? / Request feature?
Click to watch (Subscribe via  RSS  Atom) · Find Article Alerts for other topics!

Scope

This WikiProject is focused on country coverage (content/gaps) and presentation (navigation, page naming, layout, formatting) on Wikipedia, especially country articles (articles with countries as their titles), country outlines, and articles with a country in their name (such as Demographics of Germany), but also all other country-related articles, stubs, categories, and lists pertaining to countries.

Navigation

This WikiProject helps Wikipedia's navigation-related WikiProjects (Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge, WikiProject Categories, WikiProject Portals, etc.) develop and maintain the navigation structures (menus, outlines, lists, templates, and categories) pertaining to countries. And since most countries share the same subtopics ("Cities of", "Cuisine of", "Religion in", "Prostitution in", etc.), it is advantageous to standardize their naming, and their order of presentation in Wikipedia's indexes and table-of-contents-like pages.

Subpages

• List of all subpages of this page.

Formatting

Many country and country-related articles have been extensively developed, but much systematic or similar information about many countries is not presented in a consistent way. Inconsistencies are rampant in article naming, headings, data presented, types of things covered, order of coverage, etc. This WikiProject works towards standardizing page layouts of country-related articles of the same type ("Geography of", "Government of", "Politics of", "Wildlife of", etc.).

We are also involved with the standardization of country-related stubs, standardizing the structure of country-related lists and categories (the category trees for countries should be identical for the most part, as most countries share the same subcategories – though there will be some differences of course).

Goals

1. Provide a centralized resource guide of all related topics in Wikipedia, as well as spearhead the effort to improve and develop them.
2. Create uniform templates that serve to identify all related articles as part of this project, as well as stub templates to englobe all related stubs under specific categories.
3. Standardize articles about different nations, cultures, holidays, and geography.
4. Verify historical accuracy and neutrality of all articles within the scope of the project.
5. Create, expand and cleanup related articles.

Structure and guidelines

Although referenced during FA and GA reviews, this structure guide is advisory only, and should not be enforced against the wishes of those actually working on the article in question. Articles may be best modeled on the layout of an existing article of appropriate structure and topic (See: Canada, Japan and Australia)

Main polities

Main article: Country

A country is a distinct part of the world, such as a state, nation, or other political entity. When referring to a specific polity, the term "country" may refer to a sovereign state, states with limited recognition, constituent country, or a dependent territory.

Lead section

See also: WP:Lead section

Opening paragraphs

The article should start with a good simple introduction, giving name of the country, general location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like. Also give other names by which the country may still be known (for example Holland, Persia). Also, add a few facts about the country, the things that it is known for (for example the mentioning of windmills in the Netherlands article).

The etymology of a country's name, if worth noting, may be dealt with in the Etymology or History section. Naming disputes may also belong in the Etymology or History section.

Overly detailed information or infobox data duplication such as listing random examples, numbered statistics or naming individuals should be reserved for the infobox or body of the article.

Example: . Canada and Japan as below .

Y A developed country, Canada has a high nominal per capita income globally and its advanced economy ranks among the largest in the world, relying chiefly upon its abundant natural resources and well-developed international trade networks. Recognized as a middle power, Canada's strong support for multilateralism and internationalism has been closely related to its foreign relations policies of peacekeeping and aid for developing countries. Canada is part of multiple international organizations and forums.

N A highly developed country, Canada has the seventeenth-highest nominal per-capita income globally and the sixteenth-highest ranking in the Human Development Index. Its advanced economy is the tenth-largest in the world and the 14th for military expenditure by country, Canada is part of several major international institutions including the United Nations, NATO, the G7, the Group of Ten, the G20, the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement, the Commonwealth of Nations, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, and the Organization of American States.

Y Japan is a highly developed country and a great power, with one of the largest economies by nominal GDP. Japan has renounced its right to declare war, though it maintains a self-defense force that ranks as one of the world's strongest militaries. A global leader in the automotive, robotics, and electronics industries, the country has made significant contributions to science and technology, and is one of the world's largest exporters and importers. It is part of multiple major international and intergovernmental institutions.

N Japan is a member of numerous international organizations, including the United Nations (since 1956), the OECD, and the Group of Seven. Although it has renounced its right to declare war, the country maintains Self-Defense Forces that rank as 10th for military expenditure by country, After World War II, Japan experienced record growth in an economic miracle, becoming the second-largest economy in the world by 1990. As of 2021, the country's economy is the third-largest by nominal GDP, the fourth-largest by PPP and ranked "very high" on the Human Development Index.

Infobox

There is a table with quick facts about the country called an infobox. A template for the table can be found at the bottom of this page.

Although the table can be moved out to the template namespace (to e.g. [[Template:CountryName Infobox]]) and thus easen the look of the edit page, most Wikipedians still disapprove as of now, see the talk page.

The contents are as follows:

• The official long-form name of the country in the local language is to go on top as the caption. If there are several official names (languages), list all (if reasonably feasible). The conventional long-form name (in English), if it differs from the local long-form name, should follow the local name(s). This is not a parameter to list every recognized language of a country, but rather for listing officially recognize national languages.
• The conventional short-form name of the country, recognised by the majority of the English-speaking world; ideally, this should also be used for the name of the article.
• A picture of the national flag. You can find flags at the List of flags. A smaller version should be included in the table itself, a larger-sized version in a page titled Flag of <country>, linked to via the "In Detail" cell. Instead of two different images, use the autothumbnail function that wiki offers.
• A picture of the national coat of arms. A good source is required for this, but not yet available. It should be no more than 125 pixels in width.
• Below the flag and coat of arms is room for the national motto, often displayed on the coat of arms (with translation, if necessary).
• The official language(s) of the country. (rot the place to list every recognized or used language)
• The political status. Specify if it is a sovereign state or a dependent territory.
• The capital city, or cities. Explain the differences if there are multiple capital cities using a footnote (see example at the Netherlands).
• If the data on the population is recent and reliable, add the largest city of the country.
• Land area: The area of the country in square kilometres (km²) and square miles (sq mi) with the world-ranking of this country. Also add the % of water, which can be calculated from the data in the Geography article (make it negligible if ~0%).
• Population: The number of inhabitants and the world-ranking; also include a year for this estimate (should be 2000 for now, as that is the date of the ranking). For the population density you can use the numbers now available.
• GDP: The amount of the gross domestic product on ppp base and the world ranking. also include the amount total and per head.
• HDI: Information pertaining to the UN Human Development Index – the value, year (of value), rank (with ordinal), and category (colourised as per the HDI country list).
• Currency; the name of the local currency. Use the pipe if the currency name is also used in other countries: [[Australian dollar|dollar]].
• Time zone(s); the time zone or zones in which the country is relative to UTC
• National anthem; the name of the National anthem and a link to the article about it.
• Internet TLD; the top-level domain code for this country.
• Calling Code; the international Calling Code used for dialing this country.

Lead map

There is a long-standing practice that areas out of a state's control should be depicted differently on introductory maps, to not give the impression the powers of a state extend somewhere they do not. This is for various types of a lack of control, be it another state (eg. Crimea, bits of Kashmir) or a separatist body (eg. DPR, TRNC).

Sections

Further information: Wikipedia:Summary style and Wikipedia:Too much detail

A section should be written in summary style, containing just the important facts. Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery. Main article fixation is an observed effect that editors are likely to encounter in county articles. If a section it is too large, information should be transferred to the sub-article. Avoid sections focusing on criticisms or controversies. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections.

Articles may consist of the following sections:

• Etymology sections are often placed first (sometimes called name depending on the information in the article). Include only if due information is available.
• History – An outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs, depending on complexity of history), including some detail on current events. Sub-article: "History of X"
• Politics – Overview of the current governmental system, possibly previous forms, some short notes on the parliament. Sub-article: "Politics of X"
• Administrative divisions – Overview of the administrative subdivisions of the country. Name the section after the first level of subdivisions (and subsequent levels, if available) (e.g. provinces, states, departments, districts, etc.) and give the English equivalent name, when available. Also include overseas possessions. This section should also include an overview map of the country and subdivisions, if available. The CIA World Factbook Maps can be used as a basis for the map, but plenty of other sources are available.
• Geography – Details of the country's main geographic features and climate. Historical weather boxes should be reserved for sub articles. Sub-article: "Geography of X"
• Economy – Details on the country's economy, major industries, bit of economic history, major trade partners, a tad comparison etc. Sub-article: "Economy of X"
• Demographics – Mention the languages spoken, the major religions, some well known properties of the people of X, by which they are known. Uncontextualized data should be avoided. (See WP:NOTSTATS) Sub-article: "Demographics of X".
• Culture – Summary of the country's specific forms of art (anything from painting to film) and its best known cultural contributions. Caution should be taken to ensure that the sections are not simply a listing of names or mini biographies of individuals accomplishments. Good example Canada#Sports. Sub-article: "Culture of X".
• See also – Aim to include relevant information within the article and reduce the See also section See WP:See also. ('See also" sections of country articles normally only contain links to "Index of country" and "Outline of country" articles, alongside the main portal(s)).
• References – Sums up "Notes", "References", and all "Further Reading" or "Bibliography"
• External links – Links to official websites about the country. See WP:External links

Size

Main pages: Wikipedia:Article size and Wikipedia:Summary style § Article size

Articles that have gone through FA and GA reviews generally consists of approximately 8,000 to 10,000 words as per WP:SIZERULE, with a lead usually four paragraphs as per MOS:LEADLENGTH.

• Australia = Prose size (text only): 60 kB (9,304 words) "readable prose size"
• Bulgaria = Prose size (text only): 56 kB (8,847 words) "readable prose size"
• Canada = Prose size (text only): 67 kB (9,936 words) "readable prose size"
• Germany = Prose size (text only): 54 kB (8,456 words) "readable prose size"
• Japan = Prose size (text only): 51 kB (8,104 words) "readable prose size"
• East Timor = Prose size (text only): 53 kB (8152 words) "readable prose size"
• Malaysia = Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9092 words) "readable prose size"
• New Zealand = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9761 words) "readable prose size"
• Philippines = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9178 words) "readable prose size"

Hatnote

The link should be shown as below: Avoid link clutter of multiple child articles in a hierarchical setup as hatnotes. For example, Canada#Economy is a summary section with a hatnote to Economy of Canada that summarizes the history with a hatnote to Economic history of Canada. See WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE for more recommended hatnote usages.

== Politics ==
{{main|Politics of the Netherlands}}

Charts

As prose text is preferred, overly detailed statistical charts and diagrams such as economic trends, weather boxes, historical population charts, and past elections results, etc, should be reserved for main sub articles on the topic as per WP:DETAIL as outlined at WP:NOTSTATS.

Galleries

Galleries or clusters of images are generally discouraged as they may cause undue weight to one particular section of a summary article and may cause accessibility problems, such as sand­wich­ing of text, images that are too small or fragmented image display for some readers as outlined at WP:GALLERY. Articles that have gone through modern FA and GA reviews generally consists of one image for every three or four paragraphs, see MOS:ACCESS#FLOAT and MOS:SECTIONLOC for more information.

Footers

As noted at Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes the number of templates at the bottom of any article should be kept to a minimum. Country pages generally have footers that link to pages for countries in their geographic region. Footers for international organizations are not added to country pages, but they rather can go on subpages such as "Economy of..." and "Foreign relations of..." Categories for some of these organizations are also sometimes added. Templates for supranational organizations like the European Union and CARICOM are permitted. A list of the footers that have been created can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Templates/Navboxes, however note that many of these are not currently in use.

Transclusions

Transclusions are generally discouraged in country articles for reasons outlined below.

Further information: Wikipedia:Transclusion costs and benefits

Like many software technologies, transclusion comes with a number of drawbacks. The most obvious one being the cost in terms of increased machine resources needed; to mitigate this to some extent, template limits are imposed by the software to reduce the complexity of pages. Some further drawbacks are listed below.

• Transcluded text may have no sources for statements that should be sourced where they appear, have different established reference styles, contain no-text cite errors, or duplicate key errors. (To help mitigate these, see Help:Cite errors)
• Excerpts break the link between article code and article output.
• Changes made to transcluded content often do not appear in watchlists, resulting in unseen changes on the target page.
• Transcluded text may cause repeated links or have different varieties of English and date formats than the target page.
• Transclusions may not reflect protection levels, resulting in transcluded text perhaps having a different level of protection than the target page. See Cascading protection
• {{excerpt}} and related templates may require using <noinclude>, <includeonly> and <onlyinclude> markup at the transcluded page to have selective content; that would require monitoring that the markup is sustained.
• Excerpts cause editors to monitor transcluded pages for "section heading" changes to ensure transclusion continues to work. (To help mitigate this, see MOS:BROKENSECTIONLINKS)
• Excerpts can result in content discussions over multiple talk pages that may have different considerations or objectives for readers.

Lists of countries

To determine which entities should be considered separate "countries" or included on lists, use the entries in ISO 3166-1 plus the list of states with limited recognition, except:

• Lists based on only a single source should follow that source.
• Specific lists might need more logical criteria. For example, list of sovereign states omits non-sovereign entities listed by ISO-3166-1. Lists of sports teams list whichever entities that have teams, regardless of sovereignty. Lists of laws might follow jurisdiction boundaries (for example, England and Wales is a single jurisdiction).

For consistency with other Wikipedia articles, the names of entities do not need to follow sources or ISO-3166-1. The names used as the titles of English Wikipedia articles are a safe choice for those that are disputed.

Resources

Related WikiProjects

• WikiProject Former countries
• WikiProject Micronations
• WikiProject Limited recognition

Popular pages

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Popular pages

Template:FAOL

Guidelines for editing the India page

• The article is written in summary style in Indian English.
• All sections are a summary of more detailed articles. If you find any points missing, please add it in the section's main article rather than on this page to keep this page size within reasonable limits.
• Only external links pertaining to India as a whole are solicited here. Please add other links in the most appropriate article.
• India-related matters should be discussed at Wikipedia:Notice board for India-related topics.
• See the FAQ section before posting a topic on the page.

Selecting images

We've all had a big debate on adding appropriate images to this page. This issue has cropped up time and again. Selection of images are currently very subjective and I hope we can define some rules in the addition/replacement of images on this page. My aim is to have the selection as objective and transparent as possible.

1. Images should be featured pictures.
   1. Cutting down on subjectivity: — Featured pictures are assessed by neutral evaluators for subject, clarity and composition. Thus subjectivity is minimized.
   2. Page is of the highest quality — Since India is a featured article, and the core article of Wikiproject India, having featured content on this page allows it to be among the crème de la crème of wikipedia content.
2. Images should be regionally balanced.
   • Having excess images from a particular region of India makes it too regionally specific. Each region should be appropriately represented (North, South, East, West, Central, North-east).
3. Images should be relavent to the section placed in.

=Nichalp «Talk»= 12:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed but I am afraid that their might not be enough relevant FA images. --Blacksun 13:49, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

We can maintain the status quo for now but there's no harm in nominating India-related pictures for featured status. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I feel relevance to the article contents and high resolution should be the criteria. Current inventory of featured pictures in Wikipedia is limited. By restricting our choice to featured pictures, we always end up putting picture which does not truly represent subject.For example, Apatani image or Toda hut pictures are good but it does not synchoronise well with the subject. Other F.A country articles pictures are attractive since they don't restrict their choices to featured pictures. Status quo for images is not a good idea.--Indianstar 18:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yup, but that again boils down to the 'appropriateness' and subjectivity. It should also inspire people to get India-related pictures featured. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

We are discussing appropriateness in this talk forum for many days...to minimise subjectivity. Current images are best among the few featured pictures... but still many people have expressed opinions that pictures in India articles are not good. When inventory of featured pictures goes up then we can decide to restrict our choices to featured pictures. Other two points mentioned by you makes sense.(Regional balance and Relevance to contents). Current images does not fit relevance to contents and regional balance criteria.(E.g There are two tribal related images affecting regional balance and both of them does not go well with the subject(Atleast as per my opinion), Tiger may be better choice for flora and fauna since it is India's national animal and good tiger pictures are available.) Current images meets only featured pictures criteria. Status quo is not the nice idea.--Indianstar 18:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely with Indianstar. Confining ourselves to just featured images is a very bad idea. Images get featured not because they may be relevant to a certain article on wikipedia, but simply because of its own merit. So the argument to use only featured images for a certain article is flawed. Howeverwhat we can probably decide is that, if there is a featured image and if the community here by consensus feels that it is a better choice than an existing image, then featured images should get precedence over non featured images. Also, we can start building an image bank/gallery and then may be we can keep rotating images. Sarvagnya 22:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

S: Images get featured not because they may be relevant to a certain article on wikipedia, but simply because of its own merit. No. FPC discussions often hinge on whether images have high "enc value"--how well do they illustrate the articles they accompany. I think that we should stick with the status quo for this reason, and think that Nichalp's FP-only rule is reasonable. Saravask 09:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

No. Pictures are always selected based on its own merit. WP:WIAFP does not specify any criteria for compatibility of picture with accompanying article. Many pictures in this article were inserted after they have become featured pictures. I have rarely seen discussions centering around compatibility of pictures to the article. For sample you can see Ajantha caves and Apatani Tribe discussions. If you are interested I can paste other FP discussions. I only said inventory of Featured pictures has not reached threshold limit for us to adopt "Featured pictures only" rule. I will also love to have FP if there are many. Are we going to remove Parliament,Agni & Stock exchange and other non featured pictures from these articles which has more compatibility with article contents?. I expressed reservations to Status quo on other criteria like Relevance to contents and Regional balance not based on FP only rule. --Indianstar 13:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

IS: No. Pictures are always selected based on its own merit. Which is why #5 of WP:WIAFP reads: Adds value to an article and helps readers to understand an article. The encyclopedic value of the image is given priority over its artistic value. Try actually reading a policy/criteria page before claiming that it does or does not say something. Saravask 19:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I read all points before posting my comments. That point does not say compatibility of pictures to specific article. Purpose or intent of that point is that pictures should add values to encyclopedic articles. For example, I cannot put my personal family picture for featured picture nomination even if it meets other criteria. Since it cannot add value to any article. Many featured images inserted to this article have been evaluated before inserting into this article. Featured pictures have encyclopedic value;It does not mean it can be put on any encyclopedia article. Your assumption that featured pictures have been evaluated for accompanied article is not valid in this case. I wonder why you follow sarvagnya on many cases. We can have difference of opinion with a person on particular issue. It should not inspire us to dispute all points raised by that person. However,I will follow your nice advise and try reading pages. Now I am reading what is meant by Wikistalking. --Indianstar 20:59, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Saravask, would you stop misinterpreting stuff to suit your convenience? On the debate of festivals, your side of the fence tried to misrepresent Sundar's stand and now you're trying to conveniently misinterpret this rule/guideline. For your benefit, let me explain that #5 to you. What that point means is, my personal portrait for example, even if it is qualitatively brilliant, it isnt encyclopedic because I am a nobody. A portrait of Gandhiji otoh, is encyclopedic. Now, that doesnt mean any and all portraits of Gandhiji are worthy of being featured. Only few may make the cut. Hope you found this enlightening. Thanks. Sarvagnya 21:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I COMPLETELY COMPLETELY COMPLETELY COMPLETELY COMPLETLY agree with Indiastar. Oh my god. finally someone who shares the same opinion as I. The fact that a picture is featured does NOT mean it relates to an article. The fact that the apanti image is featured does not mean that it shows india fairly. I would rather have relevant pics on any page than irrelvant (or underrelvant) featured pics. I think there definately is a consensus on this. And maybe we do need to get more India pics featured, but thats another topic. At any time we should always stick with relvance over featured status. Nikkul 15:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Here lies the problem, people say they like their nominated images but nobody is willing to get appropriate images featured. We have to make do with what we have: See the version when Mumbai was featured. The images then were of poorer quality. Indianstar's idea is good, we can try and attain a pool of featured images for rotation. Shall we start the hunt for appropriate images and get them featured? It will benefit the project immensely. =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:59, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Nichalp, I get your point. I will split the problem as 2 issues. Your suggestion is appropriate for Issue 2 and I support its implementation. Issue 1 need to be resolved now.

1) Existing images is not suitable for article contents. I express reservations on status quo only because of this issue.

I strongly feel Apatani Image, Toda Hut does not go well with article.

I seek we can decide replacement with some images which goes well with article contents even if it is not a featured one. We should decide picture replacement for this case.

2)Existing featured image is suitable for article contents .But there is a potential for replacing with better images.

For example, In History & Flora & Fauna sections, current pictures are ok with article contents but there is potential for improvement.

I think Harappa or Mohanjadaro is preferable than Ajantha caves or Tiger is better than Monkey. High resolution Bengal tiger pictures are available.

For this issue, I support your statement that nominator of new image should take responsibility for getting it featured and as far as possible we should try to go for featured images unless exception is justified with clear logic acceptable to the community. I will see whether I can nominate Tiger pictures for Featured candidates. --Indianstar 17:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

There are 2 differnet problems:

PROBLEM 1- India related images that are featured pics are not very relvant to the overall country. (not all indians look like apantis & not all indians live in toda huts)

Solution- change them temporarily for more relvant pictures

PROBLEM 2- Not enough featured pics for India related topics exist.

Solution- nominate more images for featured status. Gain featured status and add them to the India page IF they are relvant or else we will have problem one again

While User nichalp recognizes the solution for the second problem, i think he does not realize the first prolem. I feel a lot of people believe the first problem exists, as shown by the long discussions.Nikkul 20:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

We can put forward our points,we don't have to judge whether others recognise the problem when discussions are going on.--Indianstar 21:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I support Nichalp's proposal that we maintain status quo until we have more FP images, and, in the interim, focus our energies on getting more images featured. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Maintaining status quo would be like making wikipedia not a free encyclopedia. There are a lot more people who feel that the images that are on the article, though featured, do not belong on this page, but would be better suited on another page such as tribes of India for the toda hut or apanti image. Coollemonade 12:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Maintaining status quo would only mean till more appropriate featured images are found. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Utopian Proposal for Demographics

Because of India's rich diversity, no one image can represent all of India's one billion people. That is why I propose selecting a new demographics image every three months (time can be voted on). This would allow for a regional balance and would show India as a whole, the two main concerns expressed. Many people have agreed that this is the only way to represent India's rich and varied diversity. Please consider this proposal. Thanks.

Supporters:

1. User:coollemonade
2. Bakaman 01:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

3.Sarvagnya

4.Chanakyathegreat

5. User:Bangalorevenkat

6. User:nikkul

Comments: I like the rotation idea, I've also proposed it myself above. But 3 months is too long a duration. Depending on how large our pool is, we should atleast be able to rotate them once in 15 days or atleast once a month. Also, this shouldnt be confined to the demographics section. It should be for all sections. Seriously, the Taj Mahal pic has become an eyesore. It may be one of the wonders of the world(that again is somebody's POV which got legitimised I dont know when) but that doesnt mean its the only monument thats worth its salt. Nor does it mean that it is the best representation of our culture. If we cant rotate, how about atleast adding a link to Gallery of Indian pics in the ==See also==. Is there such a precedent? Can we have galleries in the article itself? Or can we have an article itself for the gallery? Just thinking aloud. Sarvagnya 00:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I support. But three months is too long. I support a time limit of one week for each image. It can also be on a rotational basis starting with each state like Arunachal pradesh, Andra Pradesh and so on. During that week the images from Arunachal pradesh be listed and votes are casted for and against and the image changed with the selected image. This must go on for every week. Chanakyathegreat 04:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I did not mean to set a time limit. That can also be voted upon. Coollemonade 12:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Opposers:

1. User:The Behnam
2. Ambuj Saxena.

Comments: This is supposed to be a featured article. FAs should be stable. Image rotation is a political solution. We should rather concentrate on selecting the best possible image rather than appease everyone. Having galleries is strictly out of question. This is an encyclopedia. The two issues discussed in the previous section are very much serious. What we should instead do is that find out the best suited image available and put it in the article without prejudice. By 'without prejudice', I mean that if we get a better picture, we should be willing to make the change without much bureaucracy (i.e. not discouraging such attempts to change, but at the same time keeping out uni-lateral changes). As and when possible, we should prefer featured images over non-featured ones. But for that the relevance should come first. For example, while the apatani image is very much relevant and informative about the article on the tribe, it is hardly relevant to the India article. My understanding of the FP criteria is that the image should illustrate some article well. Being an FP doesn't mean that image becomes suitable for any article obscurely related to the image. The fact that there aren't enough featured images is a reality. We thus, cannot afford (at this moment, at least) to narrow our search of image to FP only. There are many good quality images that aren't featured but should be good enough for this page. An example that comes to my mind is that of the Bengal Tiger image. It is definitely of high quality, but due to some minor issues, could not get featured. In terms of quality, relevance and visual appeal, it is definitely better than the current langur one. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 10:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Unlike Wikipedians, most people don't keep monitoring the page. Whatever picture they see at the time will represent India's Demographics to them. While the compromise may solve our image-related disagreements as editors, it doesn't solve the problem for the reader. But the reader is more important here. I suggest using a picture that always has to do with demographics, such as a demographic visual (chart, map, graph, etc). The Behnam 04:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Just as User:The Behnam said, the average reader (who is our customer i guess u can say) does not keep a track of the images he or she sees. Whatever pic they see represents Indian people to him or her. The Apanti image is obviously not a valid representation of Indian people because the Apanti tribe does not comprise of the majority in India. Since there is no majority, I think that the rotation is a good idea. Also, more people voted to change the apanti image than to keep it and a lot agree it is irrelvant. User Ambuj said that this is an encyclopedia. And that is exactly what it is. Its supposed to give a fair representation of India, which the current image does not do because a majority of Indians do not follow Apanti customs. I dont think, user ambuj, that there is one image that can represent all Indians as shown by these long convos. Thats why rotation is optimal.Coollemonade 12:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I agree that the Apatani image is not representative of India. But just because there is no majority, doesn't make your argument on rotation any more valid. The solution you suggest is of political appeasement rather than optimisation. You are suggeting we put a rotation of biased pics, so that on an average over the whole year, the article would look neutral. But have you ever thought that such a system would never yield a neutral article. It is like having one hand in furnace and other in liquid nitrogen to speak of being comfortable on an average. Hope you understand now why I am strictly against the rotation policy. The more I think of it, the more I keep getting convinced that photographic image isn't the solution to our problems. Possibly we would have to do with some chart/map representing demographic data. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 18:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not see why featured articles "should remain stable." If this were the case, then why even have this discussion? why even bother to try to edit this page? why not just put a permanent protection on the site and not ever log on to this page to help better it? I think that if we can better a featured article (in this case by changing the irrelvant dem pic or the toda hut pic) then why not do it? First, I think we all agree that the Apanti image should go. Its the second we're stuck on. The second problem is "how do we choose a replacement image?" This is the only solution if we want to have an image there. What is so wrong about switching images at given time intervals? it does not harm anyone and it satisfies us all. Coollemonade 21:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see the RfC section below. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If we're going to put a barrier on editing the India page, why not just do the same to all of Wikipedia. If seven of eleven voters vote to stop major edits to any Wikipedia pages, does that mean that we can not edit Wikipedia at all? No, my friends; This is the free encyclopedia. when an article gets featured status, it does not mean we can not make it better.Coollemonade 03:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

You guys are extremely strange. It is picture of a tribe - no one with IQ above 40 is going to think that it represents all of India. I find it a rather cool image that makes me learn things about India that I did not know even though I have been to almost every state in India. Get over it already.--129.125.7.218 10:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

You would be surprised how little people know about India. I once met a chick who thought India was in Africa. And photos such as these serve to spread the misconception that most Indians live in tribes. Nikkul 12:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I have been reading quitely everyones opinion during period when I could not take part beacause i had forgot my password. User nichalp said that images should be regionally balanced. So let us see if they are: Ajanta Caves- north, Mahatma Gandhi- north, parliament of india- north, agni missile-north, monkey-north, bse-north, apanti- north, taj mahal- north. toda-south. i hope India wikiusers realize that your country has a south and that it is an integral part of the nation. eight out of nine images are from north areas. this is unacceptable. Bangalorevenkat 13:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I will attempt a more detailed analysis.

• Ajanta caves – West
• Mahatma Gandhi – West (per birth)/Irrelevent (per location)
• Parliament – North
• Agni missile – Irrelevent (per content)/North (per location)
• Monkey – East (North-east)
• BSE – West
• Apatani – East (North-east)
• Taj Mahal – North
• Toda hut – South

Final tally:

• North=2.5
• East=2
• West=2.5
• South=1

I see that south is still under-represented, but only by an image perhaps. Not as alarming as you suggest. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 13:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

We have to evaluate regional balance without assigning regions for Mahatma Gandhi,Agni & Monkey. --Indianstar 23:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe we're still having this discussion. can we just change it? we're wasting so much time discussing it without doing anything about it. i think we have a concensus that the apanti image should go.

Users who believe the Apanti image does not represent India as a whole/dont want Apanti image:

• user:Indianstar
• user:Nikkul
• user:Coollemonade
• user:Ambuj Saxena
• user:huniebunie
• user:The Behnam
• user:dab
• user:Incman
• user:xavierIcI
• user:user:Khazadum
• user:Ekantik

Please read comments on this page and the previous page.

Section break

Some of you said that the rotation policy is not a problem for those who visit the pages. It's true. They may be visiting once. So it is not a problem for them and hence we can change the image in a rotational basis.(Since it is a problem for everyone of us here). Also I would like to comment on those who oppose the Apatani image. It's not that the said image cannot be there. It will come just like any other image during the rotational basis since the image is that of an Indian. I still did not understand why you guys are paranoid about the image. Let me also state that no image can represent India fully in the demographic section except the map of India, which is different from the Wikipedia map and hence even that cannot be added. Even a single image superimposing all images are not possible since there is a lot of diversity and hence the only way out is the rotation policy of images. Chanakyathegreat 09:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The main opposition against the Aptani image seems to be that it is not representative of India's people. Fair enough. BUT removing it would create a twosome vacumn: We lost a FP, and we lose a representative pic of NE India. I've edited the image caption and text in the demographics so that it gels in. This should lead to less of a problem and less edit wars. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Superb crisis resolution, Nichalp. I like the reworded caption. I agree too with Chanakyathegreat's sentiments about paranoia. Although I like the idea of rotation, I feel that featured pictures shouldn't be replaced blithely by unevaluated ones. Since we don't tolerate substandard prose in the article, we shouldn't tolerate substandard pictures either; instead, we should redouble our efforts to get more India-related pictures featured. That not only gives the pictures a much-needed peer review, but also, if featured, a stamp of timelessness. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a Wikipedia Talk page, not an echo chamber for sycophantic personal musing. Sarvagnya 18:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sarvagnya, does your personal problems with Fowler have ANYTHING to do with the above comment by Fowler? Because your comment is totally irrelevant, and a personal attack. --Ragib 18:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Fowler, featured pictures are not being blithely replaced by UNEVALUATED ones. Please! just because a picture does not have featured status does not mean its unevaluated or substandard! Here is a more thorough count of the images and what they represent-

Ajanta caves – West Mahatma Gandhi – Irrelevent (hes the father of the nation, he represented all) Parliament – Irrelvnt- only because delhi is capital. Agni missile – Irrelevent its a missile. Monkey – East (North-east) BSE – West Apatani – East (North-east) Taj Mahal – North Toda hut – South

Final count: North: 1 NorthEast: 2 West: 2 South: 1

Hence, taking out the apanti image would not be a vacuum. Also, this act has been discussed thoroughly and a consensus has been formed. Please scroll up if you haven't seen it. Also, if you have concerns about a vacuum; this is also being discussed in the rotation thing. Please do not add the image again just because you want it there. A replacement image is pending. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikkul (talk • contribs)

Nikkul, several points:

• Please remember to indent and sign your messages properly.
• Note that the "monkey" (langur) picture is no longer used on the page.
• The vacuum refers to there being no current image in the demographics section.
• The last time the issue was voted upon: "Proposal 2: Remove the Apatani image because it does not represent all of India at all and get another image of an average Indian perhaps in a traditional indian dress" garnered 1 "For" vote and 3 votes in opposition. The only way you arrived at the consensus was by lumping people who wanted to "replace the Apatani image once an better image was found" and those who simply wanted to "delete" it.

Hopefully, after reading this you will revert your own deletion, and in the future present arguments to support your proposal rather than try to railroad them through. Cheers. Abecedare 00:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I have found several great images for India related topics. I will be posting them up. One such image is the parliament image which is already on the India page. Indianhilbilly 12:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this image is very beautiful. I think we should leave it there TEMPORARILY till we get the demographics issue resolved. This will eliminate the vacuum and will help us go forward with the discussion, since some were concerned about the vacuum. Huniebunie 14:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I am not aware that there is a WP rule that says a temporary replacement can be used without the same discussions that precede a permanent one. The Apatani image is already there, it can serve as the temporary replacement adequately. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry. I just thought it would resolve the problem of vacuum which you were concerned about. I am not aware of any WP rule that says every section MUST have an image at ALL times, especially if that image has gotten such stiff opposition (which user fowlerfowler favours). The apanti image has been opposed more than anything else has been favoured. So, then the best thing to do is to not have any picture at all. Huniebunie 16:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Map of India

would someone like adding [[1]] this Survey_of_India based map to the page. well this India according to india's "official" survey of India map. hence it does distort the areas that are really under india's possession But I think it also need to find a place in the wiki.--Iamg 04:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I would strongly oppose this image. It is India's "official" version, and thus heavily biased on border disputes. There are many other issues as well. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 10:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I was only suggesting because i thought people might like seeing that there is also an 'official' version given to them, which could stand in comparison to those most commonly available wiki available. ho strong or hard feelings about it. It is not bad to tell that people in India are trained to see the official versions. --Iamg 04:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

See the /FAQ/FAQ. The map of India on the page is much more data rich than the official Indian version. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Photoshop

How about a photoshopped picture of one person from each state/province/territory in India, like a collage or a frame with an Indian flag as a backdrop? Just throwing this out there.Bakaman 01:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Support

1. Bakaman 01:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

1. User:The Behnam

Comment - Not even that could accurately represent the Indian demographic. Besides, each person would be really small unless you put a huge picture on the page, which in turn would be distracting. Let's go with a demographic visual (chart, map, graph, etc). The Behnam 04:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. A collage would be suitabel only if it captures the diversity, while at the same time maintaining encyclopedic value. Having a flag in background is out of question as it would be a very patriotic representation. The collage should also be clear in the thumbnail itself. You can try to make some based on free images, and it can be considered. However, becuase of the large diversity, I feel that having a single photographic image may appear to be biased. I would recommend addition of demographic visuals as suggested by Behnam. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 10:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

How about getting a picture at an Indian dance competition where there are about 24 people, one from each state wearing his state's dress and all pose for a grand wikipedia pic? Coollemonade 12:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If you think such an image would be clearly visible even in thumbnail (which I am skeptical of), make one and link from this page. If found good, it will find its way to the article. You shouldn't expect us to say yes to an image we haven't seen. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 18:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Reverts over Interwiki links

I noticed that there have been regular reverts of the page over interwiki links. One thing we should keep in mind that, these interwiki links are placed in 100+ wikipedias, and any bot working on those wikipedias is always going to come and reinsert these interwiki links. So, the problem needs to be addressed in a different manner rather than daily cycles of bot inserts and manual reverts. Thanks. --Ragib 21:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Summary of RfC conducted in late January/early February 2007. Topic: Adding new material to the India page history section

Since we never quite summarized the responses to the RfC, I thought it might be a good idea to do it now. The RfC was posted on January 31, 2007. (see here). Of the eleven respondents to the RfC, seven (Ragib, Tombseye, Dab, Saravask, Anupam, Parthi, and Taxman) felt that stability of the India page was important and that any nontrivial changes should be preceded by discussion on the talk page. Three respondents (Indianstar, Sarvagnya, and AJ-India) felt that discussion, especially when excessive, could be detrimental to innovation, and could lead to the article becoming fossilized. One respondent (Blacksun) felt that no universal guidelines could be put forth, that they would very much depend on the context. (In addition, Fowler&fowler, who posted the RfC, shared the view of the first group.) The stability viewpoint was summarized by Taxman in his response:

“ Additional information should go in the subarticles only unless strong consensus is achieved first for the need to add it to the main article. Summaries of thousands of years of history are very difficult to write and that hard work has already been done. While it may be able to be improved, it won't be easy. The least that is fair to do is discuss first before adding anything. Yes, I don't know that there is a better way to get that accross other than very polite edit summaries like "please get consensus on the talk page first". ”

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

PS. Here is the statement of the RfC:

The India page is a featured article, which currently stands at 43 KB. A persistent problem is the following: What criteria should be used for accepting new material into the article? The history section, for example, has a highly compressed narrative that at the outset points the reader to the History of India page for more details. However, every so often, editors want to add new material, feeling (rightly from their point of view) that more details are needed in a certain sub-area. A number of approaches have been tried:

1. Revert the new addition, take the discussion to the talk page. (This often upsets the editor who has added the text.)
2. Revert the material and mention in the edit summary that the History of India page already has the details they seek to add. (This upsets them even more.)
3. Accept the material and—with more copy editing—integrate it into the article. (However, the article soon begins to burgeon and requires expeditious pruning.)
4. Accept the material and remove other topics deemed less important by the editors of the moment, thereby keeping the size the same. (However, the many editors who over the years have optimized the narrative, and who may not be paying close attention just then, get shortchanged.)
5. Another perennial problem is "lists." For the topic on hand,

1. should we (a) give a qualitative explanation, (b) illustrate with an example or two, and (c) refer to a more detailed link, or
2. should we do all of the above, but, in addition, provide a more detailed list of examples in the text itself? (The rationale for the detailed list is often that readers might prefer to see the details on the page itself rather than in the link.)

Although the history section is the example, the problem applies to the entire article.

---

• ...Three respondents (Indianstar, Sarvagnya, and AJ-India) felt that discussion, especially when excessive, could be detrimental to innovation, and could lead to the article becoming fossilized.... ---thus spake Fowler

I should give it to you for atleast trying hard to misrepresent people's stands. I did not say that discussion would/could be detrimental to innovation. I simply said that discussion(or filibustering in the name of 'discussion') for even common knowledge, common sense, good faith edits would lead to the article getting owned(pardon the pun).

• ...Additional information should go in the subarticles only unless strong consensus is achieved first for the need to add it to the main article. Summaries of thousands of years of history are very difficult to write and that hard work has already been done. While it may be able to be improved, it won't be easy. The least that is fair to do is discuss first before adding anything. Yes, I don't know that there is a better way to get that accross other than very polite edit summaries like "please get consensus on the talk page first..

For which I asked - "Is it a RULE?" and the answer I got was to the effect that it was NOT a RULE. So if it is not a RULE, it is NOT a rule!! Who the hell is any one of us to make up our own rules?! WP has rules and guidelines about all this that is set in stone. If you want to change it, stop over at the Village pump first. Newbies cannot be expected to know all the guidelines. Even if they were, they would probably only read up on the guidelines that the WP community has formulated. You cant expect them to read up and follow flimsy rules that somebody concocted on the fly! Saying that every edit must be discussed because this is a FA is nonsense. Can you show that to me in the rulebook?

If quality of an article is to be improved, we will certainly have to live with a bit of instability in the article in the short term. But in the long run, the article will improve. Like I've already said, if people need permissions from the high priests and self styled gaurdians of a page, then just simply lock this article down forever and stop wasting people's time.

If it is this great FA badge that is hindering the improvement of the article, we should be getting rid of it. Lets just let go of this tag, improve the article and then earn it back again. I honestly feel that a FAR is in order on this article. Sarvagnya 04:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Sarvagnya, no one is saying that every edit must be discussed. What is being said is that every major edit must be discussed. If someone says that every edit must be discussed, then I will be the first to oppose the person. Secondly, it is very unfortunate for you to feel that being an FA is a liability. If the improvements take the article forward, they should be made, but since the article has already reached a near-perfect level in prose (I don't think that it is perfect with regards to images), these things are difficult. It is not because of a badge called FA, it is because of the quality level this article has achieved. FA is just a way to showcase it to the larger audience. Every major improvement has its share of instabilities, and if they do not span beyond a reasonable amount of time, they should generally be acceptable. But many of the proposals above, IMO, lead the article to be worse-off what it is now, and bring permanent instability to the article. Do you really think that we should be allowing that to happen. As a final note, please avoid using boldface and all-caps while writing. It comes off as shouting, and doesn't help the discussion. Believe me, we will read all your words irrespective of whether you bold them or not. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 11:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ambuj. Nobody opposes discussions for major edits. But in this page even minor edits/error corrections are being discussed for many days without any final decision to insert contents or not. All of us are aware of sensitivities of retaining page quality through multi-directional edits. All of us are aware of retaining only High level contents & maintaining article size.For example, I pointed out dresses indicated does not represent Pan-India characteristics.(Only south indian and few states specific dresses are available) . I pointed out errors in Geography section for contents like "Sunderban is stated as an Archipelago based on fiction"" etc etc. We discussed for many days but decision is not taken. --Indianstar 12:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

In short, I would say that the problem is that a consensus of what is wrong is not sufficient unless it is backed by a consesnus of what would be right. I haven't followed the Sunderban discussion much, but what I remember people saying is that the source of this can be traced back to Amitava Ghosh's book, who can't be considered an authority in Geography. If that's the jist of the discussion (and no reliable authority in geography ever mentioned it as an archipelago), then I think that the article would need to be updated. If there was more to it, please ignore my opinions as an uninformed one. Frankly speaking, as I have already mentioned a couple of times before, because of the diversity of India's culture, it is going to be very difficult to find a single representative image, and I suggest that we settle for a demographic visual. I don't see how rotation would solve the problem, as I have explained in my posts above. I request the editors to please consider this advice with an open mind. For the time being, if the apatani tribal image is deemed too unfit, but a replacement is not available, the possibility of the demographics section not having any image (at least for the time being) can be explored. IMO, this won't do much harm. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 05:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It wont do much harm to remove it. Thats what you think. That is what I think and that is what many here think. So what do you do when you remove it only to find that an admin and his crony will tag team revert war with you and revert it? That really would be sorry state of affairs for an important article like this. Sarvagnya 11:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Spread the love?

Seriously, some of the discussions that have taken place in the recent months have been so trivial. I see so much energy being spent on minute little details. I humbly request that some of you guys take a "chill pill" and go work on some of the more needy India related articles. --Blacksun 10:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree.--Indianstar 12:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Don' be hatin! We all from the same hood. We brothas Nikkul 00:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Fast track change

I think that a fast track change is still possible. I suggest we replace the Langur image with Peacock one. The latter is featured, former is not. The latter has higher resolution and more visual appeal (IMO) as compared to the former. Also, the latter is more relevant (National Bird of India) than former (an endangered species). — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 13:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Good Idea.--Indianstar 15:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Third that proposal. Abecedare 15:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. Sarvagnya 15:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I congratulate you guys on taking a step forward and please do something about the other images. I think surely you must have a better picture of Indian parliament. And the tribal woman and toda hut are not representative at all. We can have some pictures like they have on Australia's page. apurv1980 18:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Dont worry, its coming. I asked this man on flickr if we could use his parliament of india pic and he said yes. so as soon as he places it under creative commons it'll be up. These pictures are soooooo lousy!!!! Ajanta caves pic puts me to sleep. Mahatma Gandhi pic can be better. parliament pic is half tree half building, agni pic makes it look like the country is behind kenya on military equipment, (i love the geography picture), bse is ok, apanti- dont know what to say, taj mahal- ok, toda hut-random. Indianhilbilly 21:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a Wikipedia Talk page, not an echo chamber for inarticulate personal musing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I have a quick solution: If you think the curremt crop of images are lousy, buy a camera, go to different parts of India, take out stunning pics, get them featured and then replace them. If that is not possible, look for good pics, or request your friends/aquaintances to contribute featured-quality pics to wikipedia. Less idle talk, letś do something constructive. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment: The ease (and consensus!) with which the langur was replaced by the peacock image, demonstrates that editors here are not averse to making changes to the page if and when a clearly superior alternative is presented. However, with regards to the demographics section image, the focus seems to be on removing the tribal women's image which some editors find ugly or unrepresentative (aside: 8% of the Indian population is tribal; how many building in India are palaces or look like the Taj Mahal, and what percentage of the bird population are peacocks ? All such arguments are fallacious IMO), rather than shoot or locate better pictures (that was tried here and no comparable candidate emerged) or create a demographic map/photoshop to replace it with.
As for the parliament, agni etc images - yes, they all can be bettered, but the discussion is moot till we actually find a superior picture to replace them with. Ditto, for the rotation policy - we first need to at least build a corpus of FA quality images before we start debating what the period of rotation should be. I am leaving this comment not to support/oppose any particular image in the article, but to try to get the focus of the debate back to actionable items rather than acrimonious edit-warring and name-calling. Cheers. Abecedare 19:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

PS: I should have pointed out that some editors, including Ambuj Saxena and Indianhilbilly, are trying to get better images for the page and their actions should be emulated by those who feel strongly about this issue. Abecedare 19:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The Himalayan (or Red) Panda

.

" 8% of the Indian population is tribal; how many building in India are palaces or look like the Taj Mahal, and what percentage of the bird population are peacocks ?" Very well put, Abecedare! My dissatisfaction with how the "fast-track change" was handled is really about the abruptness of the process. Between the proposal by Ambuj.Saxena and implementation by Sarvagyna, only 2 hours and 8 minutes had elapsed. Many of us, never heard about it, until many hours later. For example we didn't consider that there might be other Featured Pictures, like the Himalayan (or Red) Panda (found in North-East India) that too could fit the bill. I agree though with everything you've said in your comments. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow! That is one nice picture, which surprisingly is not used on a single India related page even though the species is "native to the Himalayas in India and Nepal and southern China". I have added it to the Fauna of India article, which by the way can use some work . Abecedare 21:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The meaning of "fast track change" seems to be very subjective. When I started the thread, I had the process that we follow on Portal:India in the back of my head, where discussions of inclusion of featured content is speedily closed in two days if no one objects in that time. Since I felt that this too was similar case (something that no one would object to), it can be implemented if no objections turn up in 1~2 days (rather than keep the discussion going for weeks). As it turned out, the phrase meant hours for someone, and minutes to others. This doesn't close the discussion, and suitable images can still be discussed. However in my opinion, we can keep the peacock image till we determine another suitable alternative. If you disagree on the (hasty) replacement being a step forward, I wouldn't mind if you revert it. But I hope that won't be necessary. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 15:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ambuj, Thanks for replying back. The peacock image is fine. I don't have any problems with what you did. You were clearly trying to facilitate things. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Kashmiri people

Hi. There are a lot of Indian editors here, and I couldn't figure out the Indian Wikipedians' Noticeboard last time I tried to, so I figure I'll make my call here. The Kashmiri people article has for quite some time now been in need of help. I NPOV-ized it a while back, added refs & some information for a fringe theory about them being a 'Lost Tribe of Israel'. The problem is that the article doesn't have much real information about Kashmiri people. If some of you Indians more knowledgeable or well-read on the topic can head over there & add some real content, coverage of Indian topics would be improved. Thanks for any help. The Behnam 03:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

There are very few Wikipedians from Kashmir. Personally I don't know any. But you can try contacting User:Deeptrivia. He did good work in making the Ladakh article featured. He should be able to help. The Indian noticeboard can be found here. If you have problems searching for it, just type 'India notice board wikipedia' on Google (actually even 'India notice board' would do), and you can reach there anytime. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 05:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I know two Kashmiri Wikipedians, one of which who contributes a substantial amount to Kashmiri articles - User:Saiva suj (the other who doesn't being User:Aupmanyav. Saiva might provide some help so I recommend asking him. Gizza^{Chat ©} 07:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

No mention of Aryans?

In the history section one of the first things that should be mentioned is how India is home to the Aryan people (Along with the region of Iran & Afghanistan)....And there should also be a mention of yoga & the concept of meditation coming from India in the history section....I swear every other country on wikipedia gets all the good info but when it comes to an actual country like India that has alot to represent, it doesnt get its deserved credit 71.119.248.15 07:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

hm, how are Indo-Aryans any more "representative" than, say, Armenians, Maya people , English (people) or Inuit? dab (𒁳) 07:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Please read the FAQ section =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The attachment to "Featured pictures"

There appears to be an attachment to using featured pictures in the article. While featured pictures are generally good pictures, this does not make them the best choice for the article. According to WP:FP, featured pictures are chosen because "the Wikipedia community finds beautiful, shocking, impressive, and/or informative." In other words, they are featured for their quality as pictures, not necessarily because they are the most relevant to the articles. According to Wikipedia:Images#Pertinence and encyclopedicity, the choice of image should be guided by relevance to the article content. Hence, we should stop taking FP status into consideration, and judge the images in terms of their relevance instead. I am not saying that we shouldn't take into account picture quality; it is completely appropriate to replace a fuzzy or otherwise low-quality relevant picture with a higher-quality relevant picture. But our guiding principle should be relevance, not FP status, because the FP favoritism lacks a strong WP policy/guideline basis, while relevance is explicitly advocated in the documentation. The Behnam 06:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Behnam for pointing out the guideline. This point has also been made earlier but that still has not stopped some people from plumping for FPs. Hope they see the light atleast now. Sarvagnya 06:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Policy versus essay

Considering this [2] edit by User:Fowler&fowler, there is a need for Fowler&fowler to understand the difference between policies and essays on Wikipedia. According to Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines#The differences between policies, guidelines, essays, etc., a policy is, like a guideline, actionable and authorized by consensus, while an essay is "not actionable or instructive, regardless of whether it's authorized by consensus". In this case, the policy cited in favor of removal of the Apatani image is WP:CON, being that, as listed on this talk page, there are at least 11 users in favor of removal, while apparently 2 or 3 who would like it to be kept in the article. Fowler&fowler undid the WP:CON based edit, citing WP:Recentism, an essay, as his reason. Noting the difference between policy and essay on 'actionable', he was mistaken in his revert. I have, consequently, undid his revert. Just explaining my reasoning, thanks. The Behnam 07:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)