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November 5

Poem

"I do not care to go afar where stranger skies or people are."

This poem is from WW1 and I used to hear it at least once a week. Now I can't remember more that the 1st line and pieces therein. Does anyone know the rest of the poem, the author or where I can find it.--Beader 03:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Googling on "stranger skies" yielded the poem "The Oxford Thrushes" by American Henry van Dyke, 1917. One stanza goes

Ah, far away, 'neath stranger skies

Full many a son of Oxford lies,

And whispers from his warrior grave,

"I died to keep the faith you gave."

Your fragment might be from a parody of this—a soldier's answer to the sentiment of the poem. Just a guess, sorry. --Milkbreath 11:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I checked the New York Times from 1917 to 1918 for this, but no dice. Also, you might have better luck asking about this on the Humanities desk. --Milkbreath 12:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It could be a parody. Also included are "fields where poppies grew" & "bloody rain". I will try googling those lines. Thanks.--65.19.50.37 23:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

EVERYBODY WANG CHUNG TONIGHT!

Can you tell me what a Wang Chung is? --124.254.77.148 03:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a British new wave band. See Wang Chung (band). MrRedact 03:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Could it not be a genital complaint? Lemon martini 13:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

WEST INDIES CRICKET BOARD

I shall be sincerely grateful to you if you please let me know the names of the member countries of the 'WEST INDIES CRICKET BOARD'.

Regards Nemai Majoomdar, India, 5th Oct. 2007. nmnm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.198.49 (talk) 04:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Per http://www.windiescricket.com/, the members are: Barbados, Guyana, Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago, Windward Islands (Dominica, Grenada. St. Lucia, and St. Vincent & the Grenadines), and Leeward Islands (Anguilla, Antigua, Nevis, Montserrat, St. Kitts, St. Maarten, British Virgin Islands and the U.S. Virgin Islands). -- Flyguy649 ^talk 05:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Our article West Indies Cricket Board lists the following member organisations:

• Barbados Cricket Association (BCA)
• Guyana Cricket Board (GCB)
• Jamaica Cricket Association (JCA)
• Leewards Islands Cricket Association (LICA); itself composed of:
  • Anguilla Cricket Association
  • Antigua and Barbuda Cricket Association (also just called the Antigua Cricket Association)
  • British Virgin Islands Cricket Association
  • Nevis Cricket Association (for the island of Nevis alone)
  • Montserrat Cricket Association
  • St. Kitts Cricket Association (for the island of St. Kitts alone),
  • St. Maarten Cricket Association
  • United States Virgin Islands Cricket Association
• Trinidad & Tobago Cricket Board (TTCB)
• Windward Islands Cricket Board of Control (WICBC); itself composed of:
  • Dominica Cricket Association
  • Grenada Cricket Association
  • St. Lucia Cricket Association
  • St. Vincent & the Grenadines Cricket Association

All but Nevis are in List of Countries - so I guess the answer is:

Barbados, Guyana, Jamaica, Anguilla, Antigua, British Virgin Islands, Montserrat, St. Kitts, St. Maarten, United States Virgin Islands, Trinidad & Tobago, Dominica, Grenada, St. Lucia and St. Vincent.

SteveBaker 05:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Steve, the country is St Kitts and Nevis. :) FiggyBee 07:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

A song on every iPod

I know someone is going to say that this belongs on the Entertainment desk, so to pre-empt criticism: I thought as it's a mixture of technology and entertainment and also has come human interest (so humanities) I'd put it here. Also it has more chance of eliciting interesting responses here.

Someone told me recently that there is a song that is on every iPod in existence. I find this extremely unlikely but am curious. Is there a song so popular that all (or even most) people who own mp3 players have it on theirs? Does it make any difference if it's actually an iPod or will any mp3 player have a specific song on it?

I've Googled and Asked and have a trawl through the iPod and mp3 player articles on Wikipedia and can't find a trace of my colleague's assertion. Any ideas?

Thanks guys! 212.240.35.42 12:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone is pulling your leg. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

No, he does think it's true. But maybe someone was pulling his leg. Or he imagined reading it somewhere (that's happened to me). 212.240.35.42 14:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

John Cage's 4′33″, perhaps ?? Gandalf61 14:28, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I've got the remixed, extended version on mine! :P ---- WebHamster 20:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Haha, indeed. shoy (^words _words) 14:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, they were going to install The Funniest Joke in the World on every iPod, but they were afraid it might kill the (repeat) sales.

Atlant 17:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have an iPod so I can't check - but is it possible that Apple have some pre-installed jingle or sign-on tune or something? Even so, the claim clearly isn't true because quite a few people run Linux on their iPods and whatever was pre-installed by Apple would presumably have been blown away by that. SteveBaker 19:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Orig. Research Warning! Mine never came with any music pre-installed. And I haven't heard of any Apple jingle or anything of that nature. Dismas|^(talk) 20:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Original Research is acceptable on the RefDesk. Plasticup ^T/C 20:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers guys. The person who told me this has now admitted he might have imagined it.212.240.35.42 14:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Darn! And you were just that far away from being present at the actual birth of a new and annoying urban legend!  :-) SteveBaker 20:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Iran AGAIN

thankyou all for your answer to m question named iran. i would like to know MORE abiut HUMAN RIGHTS in iran,can anyone guide me specifically on more material on the web regarding this. plz reply as early as you can. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.128.4.241 (talk) 12:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Try Amnesty International's page on Iran. Click on the annual reports for a good round-up. --24.147.86.187 15:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing smell of mothballs from a cupboard

Can any user please tell me how to remove the smell of mothballs from a cupboard? Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simonschaim (talk • contribs) 14:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Lead granny back to bed from the cupboard? Seriously, airing it out is the only remedy I'm aware of.

Atlant 17:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You should probably try either activated charcoal or one of those refrigerator deodorizers with baking soda in it. One or other of those will get rid of most things. You would of course want to be 100% sure there were no mothballs still inside the cupboard and that you'd removed and washed all of the clothing inside - otherwise the smell will just come back again. SteveBaker 19:26, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You might be able to sequester the aromatics using Cyclodextrin (Febreze), or oxidize them using Ozone. Both of these really only work on the surface, though. It is possible that the only way to get the smell completely out is to oxidize the whole cupboard... by this I mean burn it.  :) --Mdwyer 22:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

A shallow dish with a generous helping of coffee grounds left uncovered on it in a smelly place allegedly "absorbs" the bad smells. Not sure about the terminology, but I've had success with the technique. --Dweller 16:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

7.62*51 NATO

This is the opening line of the Overview section of the 7.62 NATO article: "The round itself offers similar ballistic performance in most firearms to the round it replaced in U.S. service, the .30-06 Springfield. While the cartridge itself is shorter, the actual bullet and loadings are about the same (muzzle velocities on the order of 860 m/s (2,800 ft/s) for both). Due to more modern propellants, less volume could be dedicated to holding them in the 7.62x51 cartridge than was needed in the .30-06" Does this mean it is theoretically possible for the 7.62 NATO of today to be more powerful than the 7.62 NATO of the 1950's without actually creating an entirely new round, assuming more modern propellants have been developed since the 7.62NATO was first introduced? --MKnight9989 14:31, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure. I've got no idea as to the exact specifics (how much propellants have improved, how much more the cartridge can tolerate, what sort of engineering margin the guns have), but yeah, there's no fundamental reason you can't raise the muzzle velocity. — Lomn 14:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep. The cartridge spec will give the maximum allowable pressure- but within those limits, there's room for better propellants to give better performance. Also, handloaders will sometime exceed the pressure allowed by spec when they know the ammo will be used only in a gun strong enough for it- but they do this at their own risk. Friday (talk) 18:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Edgar Allen Poe

Hello, after reading a question on www.triviabug.com, I was now searching for more information on the following, which was an answer...The unexplained tradition began in 1949 and has occurred on the author's birthday (January 19) of every year since. In the early hours of the morning on that date, a black-clad figure with a silver-tipped cane enters the Westminster Hall and Burying Ground in Baltimore, Maryland. The individual proceeds to Poe's grave, where he or she raises a cognac toast. Before departing, the Toaster leaves three red roses and a half-bottle of cognac on the grave. The roses are believed to represent Poe, his wife Virginia, and his mother-in-law Maria Clemm, all three of whom are interred at the site. The significance of the cognac itself is unknown. Many of the bottles left behind have been taken and stored by the Edgar Allan Poe Society of Baltimore.

who is this?, or does wiki have an article for more info. Thanks12.191.136.2 15:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The person is known as the Poe Toaster, there is some information in that article and also in Death of Edgar Allen Poe. --LarryMac | Talk 15:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and the info you copied from triviabug seems like it was taken directly from the Poe Toaster article. --LarryMac | Talk 17:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Which is OK if (and only if) they gave us credit for it. SteveBaker 19:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

alas, they did not, but such is the internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.149.242 (talk) 20:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Not to be confused with the not entirely unrelated poetaster. -- JackofOz 23:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Surely if the gentleman in question left a dish of mash instead of roses, that would make him a poetater? Lemon martini 14:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

>>> I wish you had seen the footer as well as the Acknowledgement page in the 'About Us' section before casting aspersions on the site for copying without acknowledging.

pimples

does popping ur pimples leave any marks on your skin? is it bad for u in any way? i heard that more pimples will come out. thanx--Dlo2012 16:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand you can get acne scarring from scratching/picking pimples, but couldn't find a wiki-article on it. Here (http://www.acne-resource.org/acne-articles/age-groups.html) has some info. Also this (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071103183742AArTJb0) is another article on it. ny156uk 18:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

satisfactory length of penis?

What is the satisfactory length of penis in unexcited or excited state for a satisfying sex as for a woman? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.99.19.150 (talk) 18:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This isn't really much of a ref desk question- different people will have different opinions. If you're concerned, try asking the person who's opinion you care about. See also human penis size for an encyclopedia article on this general topic. Friday (talk) 18:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Length is actually not that important - the female stimulation comes from rubbing and pressing against the walls of the vagina in penis-vaginal sex, so as long as it's not abnormally short, it's girth that matters. It's more satisfying typically if you throw in some clitoral stimulation, so try that if you're worried. Kuronue | Talk 19:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

the foreskin on the mouth of the penis

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page.

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page. --~~~~

Lanfear's Bane | t 00:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Guy who carved his own house

I remember, a long time ago, seeing a show on the History Channel about a guy who carved his own house out of either stone or some kind of rock and that his house was enormous. The guy was very secrative about it and it happened a while ago like I'm guessing prior to the 1930's. I have no idea where the guy was from or anything. I do remember that some speculated that he had used antigravity devices to move to stone. Does anyone know who I may be talking about?

Coral Castle 204.58.233.6 21:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I remember this and he did show how he did its. Its quite simple. You place a tiny stone under a huge bolder and just rotate it. You can make a line of tiny stones and move a huge stone of many many tones like this. YOu can even set up ways to tip the stones upright etc. He demonstraited moving peices that weighed tonnes with ease.--Dacium 03:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The guff about "antigravity" indicates that we're not talking about the same place, but one example of a home carved out of stone by its owner is the underground "building" called Hole 'n (i.e. in) the Rock, south of Moab, Utah. (Not to be confused with Hole in the Rock (road), also in Utah, or several other similarly named places.) See here. It is now a tourist attraction whose sign, unless it's been repainted lately, has one of the largest spelling errors I've ever seen: the name of the place is rendered as HOLE N''THE ROCK (!) in letters about 12 feet high. --Anonymous, 06:26 UTC, November 6, 2007; links added 23:38, November 7.

Cruise Ship Tips

A friend - no, seriously - has just returned from a 12 day cruise around the western Mediterranean that I and my wife are keen on. But on looking at the small print I am prompted to ask the following question here (the cruise company refuses to answer). The cruise terms etc., offer the chance to pay an up-front £5 per person per day service charge which would normally work out cheaper than the alternative 15% on all purchases whilst on board - I don't have a problem with that. But there is another clause that says that all other purchases (bar bills etc.) will automatically be charged a suggested 15% service charge (in addition to the pre-paid service charge mentioned above), at the cruise end. My friend tried to challenge this as being unfair, given he had already decided on the pre-pay option, but was told in no uncertain terms that the money had already been deducted from his credit card (lodged with the purser at commencement of the cruise) and that their use of the word suggested, did not imply optional. So, the question(s) is, is that not extortion, and legally misrepresentation? And the supplementary question is/are, how much of the service charges imposed find their way into the staff paypackets? And if they do, do they in fact subsidise any minimum wages paid to staff or are they in fact in addition to said minimum wages? And finally, how much does a typical steward, barman, waiter get paid on such cruise ships? Thanks in anticipation.81.145.240.230 21:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

We cannot give legal advice here. You would need to seek external advice about the legal aspects of your question. Even if we could give legal advice, we'd need a lot more information to know which legal jurisdiction (or jurisdictions) is (or are) the relevant one (or ones). -- JackofOz 22:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks like you should send in a letter to Watchdog and let them do the work for you. It sounds like the sort of juicy case they like to get their teeth into. ---- WebHamster 23:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I won't speak of legalitity, but I can speak of cruise-ship practice. I have sailed on four different lines in the past 5 years; all but one had the optional daily charge. In all cases, if a guest went to the desk at the start of the cruise (within the first few days) and asked to have the charge dropped, it was done. In all cases, that option to tip personally was explicitly advertised both before we boarded and in our boarding materials. Your friends' experience strikes me as unusual, as I have found cruise ships to be the last bastion of true customer service. If they went down to complain after the cut-off time for charges, which is usually about 6:00 p.m. on the night before they are to disembark, they might well have had no success in getting the charge removed while on board the ship. On any ship on which I have sailed, your full account is presented at least 24 hours before the cut-off time for you to check; you can make changes in that 24 hours. I have done it, though not over this specific issue.

As for your other questions, on the lines of which I have experience, the breakdown of the tip is carefully explained, to the last percentage point. I have asked bar staff, wait staff and cabin stewards on each line if they actually get the money. Without exception, they said they did. (They love the new system, because many times they still get personal tips for good service. An extra $100.00 per week, per cabin for a cabin steward is not unusual, and this is in addition to the lion's share of the stipulated service charge.) I can't tell you what a typical staff member gets paid; that's a little too direct a question to ask, even on a hypothetical basis. I can tell you that almost all the ship's staff are from countries whose cost of living is considerably below that of the guests on the ships, and for any to whom I have spoken of this, they feel they are well paid in comparison with what they could make at home. Concepts like "minimum wage" don't really apply as where would the basis be, the country of ship's registry, the country from which it sailed, the country of origin of the staff, the country where the cruise line's head office is located? There are exceptions to the countires of origin of crew and staff: the professional crew -captain, purser and the like- tend to come from the country of the ship's head office and some specialties, like recreation, medical and retail, attract North Americans and individuals from Australia, New Zealand and the U.K. I hope that is helpful. I got a bit carried away, I think. Bielle 06:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

"A public search for my father"

Can you find my father? His name is Johnny Anthony Covington I have not seen him sense I was 14 years of age. My name is Michelle Burns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.52.66.163 (talk) 22:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You would be helped best by giving at least a few details... Where you are, where you born, where last heard your father was living etc. etc. It is somewhat unlikely that the guys at wikipedia helpdesk will know the whereabouts of your father but they might have some resources based on your country, region etc. that might point you in the right direction for finding long-lost family. ny156uk 23:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd recommend perusing this editor's contrib list before spending time on this query. ---- WebHamster 00:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

What does that have to do with anything? Kuronue | Talk 01:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a suggestion that an editor thinking of spending time on this request view the contrib list and then make their own mind up as to the veracity of the request. Simple enough really. ---- WebHamster 02:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

What WebHamster is skirting around is that this IP address has been associated with four separate vandalism attacks. However, very often IP addresses are shared between many users and we are frequently warned about making that assumption. I don't think that matters. However, we're definitely going to need more information in order to attack this question. Obvious web searches for related names like "John A. Covington" produces a fairly typical collection of random hits. It would REALLY help to know the nationality and last known country of residence of this guy. Also, what did he do for a living? Any little tidbit of information could be a massive help in narrowing down the search. SteveBaker 03:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

In the off chance that this isn't just subtle vandalism, and you live in the U.S., try Intelius. Google is free, but Intelius is a lot less hit-or-miss. Intellius lists 74 people named John A Covington in the U.S., so knowing age and state would be very helpful in narrowing it down. MrRedact 03:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe our OP does indeed live in the US. Her ISP is registered in New York (which may not mean much beyond that it's a US company). SteveBaker 19:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Identify a coin stamp

While going thru an old envelope of stamps I came across two large red stamps with inscription "COIN STAMP" curved around the emblem of a young female with words "OLD AMERICAN INSURANCE CO." above it. In the lower left corner is a box with "25 cents" in it and on the right corner is a box with "30 days" in it. The stamp is 1-1/2 " wide by 2" high. Any help identifing this would be appreciated.Jldolph 23:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Presuming this (http://www.oaic.com/contact.aspx) is the firm then contacting them asking them if they have any details in their archives about the stamp might help. Also try some stamp-collection forums they may have more specialised knowledge. ny156uk 23:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Foreskin and health

The above question has got me wondering. Some people believe that boys are born in an inherently unhealthy state and they need to have their foreskins removed to make them "whole". I understand the religious basis of circumcision (while choosing to disagree with it); and I understand that some boys and men really do need to be circumcised for specific medical reasons. But the theory that all boys need circumcising - on medical grounds - seems to suppose that nature hasn't done its work properly and we humans have to intervene if we care for the health of our male children. Where and how did it originate? -- JackofOz 23:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it originated with concern over hygiene. Now that nearly everyone in developed countries has access to showers, it's pretty easy to clean under there, but this hasn't always been this case. --Masamage ♫ 03:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

We have an article - History of male circumcision - which gives some background. "Routine" circumcision only happens in a hospital setting, and my own belief is that given the choice between performing a procedure and not performing a procedure, surgeons can't help themselves. FiggyBee 05:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess HIV has not yet had the time to select for those born without a foreskin. Its unlikely it will either, since human intervention can equal the selective playing field with a snip. [1] Rockpocket 05:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Erm, no indeed. And there are much more significant risk factors for HIV infection (I'm not circumcised, but I fancy my chances of never contracting HIV...) FiggyBee 05:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah you know what I'd like to see? More widespread female circumcision in the west, exactly the same arguments can be used to justify it, so why not? I think it's amusing that we have reached a fairly universal consensus on that subject, yet for some reason, a lot of people still can't come to the same conclusion when it comes to doodles. I bet more circumcised males wish they weren't then the other way around. Don't argue with me, I'll just hate you. Vespine 06:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Naturally circumcised penises are considered a blessing in South Korea apparently if only for the fact that you don't have to undergo the operation. I will argue with you though Vespine. I would find it hard to compare male circumcision and female circumcision and conclude that the cutting of the foreskin is as bad a practice as removing the clitoris or parts of the labia. Male circumcision doesn't consist in cutting the bell end or "unnecessary" parts of the testicles. Effects on sexual pleasure, hygene and STD are completely different in circumcised men and women. That said of course the decision to undergo circumcision should be taken by the individual potential "circumsee". Considering though that it is a very cultural practice I don't think the indivual would ever really have a free choice about it. As much as scarification it could be considered a barbarous tradition but it seems it is a practice that is here to stay. There must be militant groups against circumcision around that could give a better informed if surely very biased opinion on the matter. Keria 10:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You've got it right, Keria. Male circumcision is way less severe than female, and in the latter case it's a misnomer. The entire purpose of cutting women is to make sexual pleasure impossible so that they won't cheat on their husbands--with the believe that nothing else is powerful enough to stop them. That's absolutely nothing like the justification for male circumcision. --Masamage ♫ 17:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I find these discussions bizarre every time they come up. It would be amazing if circumcision didn't have benefits. Everything has benefits. I remember reading a magazine article about a guy who lost both his legs and walked on prosthetics. He mentioned how easy it was to sleep on an airplane: while everyone else was crammed uncomfortably into their little seats, he just took off his legs and had plenty of room. A guy who formerly had normal hearing mentions that the best thing about total deafness is getting an uninterrupted night's sleep every night.[2] There are benefits to being sterile; many adults even elect to have themselves sterilized. Most people seem to understand that involuntary sterilization of babies or children as a population control measure would raise serious ethical concerns even though it would work. But for some reason many people seem to think that a demonstrated link between circumcision and reduced risk of HIV transmission is sufficient justification for a program of involuntary circumcision.

I also wonder if there really is a causal link between being uncircumcised and increased risk of HIV transmission. I can't think of a plausible mechanism for it. What does seem plausible is that being uncircumcised and practicing poor hygiene increases risk over poor hygiene alone, but that's something very different. Good hygiene has disease-prevention benefits that go way beyond HIV. Surgical amputation as a substitute for improved hygiene would be insane, so I hope that's not what this is really about. -- BenRG 16:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

We evolved the way we did for a reason. Removing that flap of skin without fully understanding it's purpose is insane. I predict that within our lifetimes, male genital mutilation (for that's what it is) will be looked down upon in the same way that the female equivalent is now. It's a bizarre religious stricture and it belongs in the dark ages. SteveBaker 00:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that, Steve, and I agree with your last sentence, BenRG. But with regard to It would be amazing if circumcision didn't have benefits. Everything has benefits - couldn't that argument be used to justify just about any bizarre or grotesque body modification one cares to dream up - such as gouging out your eyes with a teaspoon, or having wild horses rip your skin off? -- JackofOz 01:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't that Ben's point? For as good an argument could be made for amputating someone's legs at birth to prevent them getting gout in later life. As for circumcision being looked down on in our lifetimes, I don't see much outrage at children being given ear piercings. Surely that would rank higher, since it would be much harder to find a justification beyond 'I think it looks good'? Routine 'medical' circumcision might fade in the places it is currently accepted, but I don't see the practice itself dying out as soon as all that. Skittle 03:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The obvious differences being, for Jack's comment, people who justify those "modifications" have made the voluntary choice, an infant doesn't choose to be circumcised, and to skittle's comment is that in most cases when the child is old enough to decide for it self, it can simply remove the piercing and be left relatively in tact, you can't grow a foreskin back... Vespine 01:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

November 6

Arrest in the United States - NOT LEGAL ADVICE

I have broken no laws and don't intend to, this isn't a legal advice question. I'm playing a role-playing game online (as I often do) and I find myself in the position of playing a cop who is about to make an arrest when the other guy gets back online, and for a semblance of realism, wanted to check on how that's actually done, never having been arrested myself. It's a futureistic game, set in 2119, but somehow I suspect the US procedures won't have changed too much (the arrest is taking place in Kansas, too, where I've never lived). My cop has reason to believe that the suspect was involved in a murder - she's discovered that an electronic pulse sent through a VR terminal that killed a crippled girl wasn't an accident but a planned attack (and she also has the wrong guy, but she doesn't know that). So far, however, she can't get conclusive evidence that it was him. She has records of him contacting the girl before her death, and she has found a trail of money being removed from her scholarship funds and from her life insurance payout and being used to purchase things that were shipped to him, so there's probably cause (right? does that count?). He fled the country, so while he was gone she probably got a warrent for his arrest. When he lands, she'll probably give him a little time and then go to his house and knock-and-announce, read him his Miranda rights, put him in cuffs, and... hold him at the police station for interrogation? Take him right to jail? And what when she can't get conclusive evidence from interrogation? Does she continue to hold him on charges of obstruction of justice (he's not been very forthcoming and she has reason to believe he's lying)? Or release him? How does the process work? (if you're wondering, the chick had turned into a computer program and then offed her useless body herself; the shipments were parts for him to build her a robotic body. You understand why the cop would have a hard time believing that.) Kuronue | Talk 00:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Law may have changed so much by 2119 that it bears no resemblance to current law. Which game are you playing that is this involved? If you are writing a story / novel then you decide the law. Lanfear's Bane | t 00:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a text-based game over IRC. I mostly want to know how it's done today so that if I decide to change the rules I know I'm changing them, not just doing it in error. Kuronue | Talk 00:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Usually, you'd be taken to a police station and interviewed, or held while further investigations are carried out. There's a limit to how long they can hold you (often 24 hours, but it may be shorter or longer depending on circumstances) without charging you with a crime. You would never be taken to a proper jail unless you'd been charged but not bailed.

Of course, since 9/11, all this goes out the window as soon as someone mentions the T word. FiggyBee 03:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Mr. T? bibliomaniac15 A straw poll on straw polls 06:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. FiggyBee 06:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

In order to get a warrant for a suspect, you need to swear out an "Warrant of Affidavit", which you would take before a judge. In the affidavit, you will need to provide your probable cause that a crime was commited and your named suspect is the person who committed the crime. In your case; contacting the victim, the money trail, where the trail leads, etc. With that evidence, you have shown he had the opportunity and the means to commit the crime. Now, with the warrant in hand, you go to the airport (or where ever he is landing.) You may want to pose as a cab driver, or some other person you would normally see in an airport, so he would not be able to readily identify what is about to happen to him. Then, wait till he picks up his baggage, because his hands are full, call out his name and immediately arrest him. Whenever you know you are going to arrest a suspect, you should never allow the suspect to have an opportunity to flee or destroy evidence. (Meaning: if you allow him to go home, then knock on the door and arrest him, you run the chance of him fleeing or further tampering with the evidence. You'll need the evidence.) Take him directly to jail and get him booked in. Don't ask him any questions and don't read him his Miranda warning yet. During this time, if he tells you something about the offense, it can still be used against him in court, because you have not asked him about the offense. A peace officer is only required to Mirandize a suspect when the peace officer is asking questions about the offense. While he is in the jail, waiting for his arraignment, you would then take him to an interview room. Now is when you Mirandize him. Your intent is to ask him about the crime itself. In real life, if communication breaks down, it would be a good time to begin talking about a possible trade. He tells you something (Such as: where some evidence is) and you in turn, would promise to bring that piece of cooperation before the arraigning judge, and you may be able to get him a lower bond. In a suspects mind, you are now his only possible avenue for him to get out of jail as quickly as he can. But you have to stand by your promise. Hope this helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JelloTube (talk • contribs) 07:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Jello has pretty much the right idea, though here in CA in some ways the arrest warrant (at first) is not needed, if the officer has probable cause to believe that a offense was committed in their presence, or the person to be arrested has committed a felony whether or not in the officers presence, or the officer has probable cause to believe a felony has occurred, even if a felony has not occurred, all under the PC 836, ymmv, it is all based on per case factors really, but just wanted to point that out. Jello is also correct on Miranda, generally we don't mirandize until right before we sit down to talk to them, because if they invoke miranda, we lose a chance for that interview, thats it, until the attorney gets there. Any 'spontaneous statements' made before miranda are admissible. Watching most shows they like to mirandize them right away, that happens very rarely. If you want to really get into it(and if my current case law is as up to date as it should be) you can question a detained suspect(mind you detained, not in custody or arrested), and not even mirandize them, with nothing shady at all going on. In short, if the subject has reason to believe they are free to leave at any time, detained but not incustody, and you aren't doing anything to make them think otherwise(IE blocking the door, sitting in a closed room) you may ask them if they want to talk about whatever it is you are working on, they can still say no, and unless you actually have probable cause to arrest, you're still not going to get anywhere, but anything they do say voluntarily is admissible, mind you this wouldn't/shouldn't happen in any type of major felony type crime, as the person can try to articulate to the court that they did not feel they were free to leave, and there maybe a judge that will suppress the evidence, so it is kind of a moot point, just throwing it out there.Dureo 13:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. Darnit about the Miranda; I had the cop read him his rights immediately upon

arrest so that she could tape their "casual conversation" on the ride over, since he's known for being a friendly guy and she was posing as the good cop who reluctantly had to arrest him. Well, he pretty well self-incriminated anyway, and also made himself look quite insane, so I've got some good stuff to go off. Fascinating. Kuronue | Talk 02:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Rechargable Batteries - Best Practices

I have a number of devices which use rechargable batteries (mostly NiMH, some NiCd). What is the best practice for charging them to maintain the longest usable lifespan? Should I try to keep them fully charged at all times, or is it better to "exercise" them by running them down most of the way before charging? Should I be compulsive about removing them from the charger when full, or is it better to keep them plugged in? I've seen some suggestions, but they don't usually specify which types of batteries they are applicable to, and are fuzzy on the distinction between maintaining capacity, and prolonging lifespan. (In most cases, I'd prefer 4 years at 75% capacity to only one year at 100%). There's a bunch of folk wisdom running around, so reliable sources would be appreciated. Thanks. -- 01:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

NiCads should only be recharged from fully empty or they will develop the memory effect. NiMH doesn't suffer from that but both types have a limited number of charges in them so to optimise you should only really charge when fully depleted. Rechargeables are best stored fully charged, but be aware that both types self-discharge over time. ---- WebHamster 01:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not correct. A 1% discharge cycle does not consume nearly as much of the battery's life as a 100% discharge cycle, so for all battery types except NiCd, you should definitely keep the battery as fully-charged as possible. Even for NiCds, this is generally true but at least once in a while you need to deep-discharge the battery.

Atlant 23:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Guinness Yeast Extract

When and why was Guinness Yeast Extract discontinued? NeonMerlin 01:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

After having read that article, all I can say is, "Ew". Corvus cornix 18:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like good stuff! DuncanHill 18:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Note the "See Also" - Vegemite is very similar, and very popular in Australia (although it's not my cup of tea, so to speak). Steewi 04:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Sucking cocaine?

Just purely out of curiosity; most users who abuse powdered cocaine snort it through their nose to allow their lungs to absorb the powder. Can't they just suck it in through a straw with their lungs instead? Or does snorting it deliver a higher efficiency? Thanks. Acceptable 02:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure where to even look for references, but I don't think the cocaine goes to the lungs, I think it is absorbed within the nasal passages. Oh wait, it's there in the cocaine article. --LarryMac | Talk 02:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Having a numb nose is one side effect of snorting cocaine. I suppose it is possible that the lining of the mouth could also be used for absorption, but (a) cocaine tastes terrible (or so I am told) and (b) it would make your whole mouth, including your tongue, numb, and that could be an added danger. Bielle 03:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Alot of cocaine user rub their finger, with cocaine on it, over their teeth. Not sure why, but that is why their teeth are usually black. Crack-cocaine is not water soluble, therefore, it can be stored under the tounge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JelloTube (talk • contribs) 07:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I suspect the object is to rub the cocaine over the gums, not the teeth. Tooth enamel has no sensation (unless cracked, of course) and cannot transmit anything anywhere, Users of cocaine can become hypersenstitive to all sorts of sensations, including pain that is not in an area numbed by the drug. Someone with tooth problems, or sensitive gums, might find the "numb gum" feeling attractive then. It could also be (and usually was, I am told), that if you get cocaine on your hands, it picks up the body's moisture and, even if it doesn't stick to them, it will not be easily snorted. Wipe your finger over anything that has had cocaine resudue on it, and then rub your finger over your gums. Not only will they go nicely numb, but the gum tissue will also transmit the drug to the bloodstream. It does have that minor defect, though. I don't know anyone who finds black teeth attractive; do you? Bielle 08:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, pre-Meiji Japanese women often blackened their teeth as a beauty thing. It was considered poor taste for a woman to show her teeth, so blackening them avoided accidental exposure. Steewi 04:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It is indeed to get it on their gums. Snorting is preferred as in large quantities orally can numb your entire mouth and throat preventing you from swallowing effectively and can cause you to cough and splutter. The taste is rather chemically but is not exactly terrible, an acquired taste. It can also burn the back of your throat when you sniff and the powder is sucked into your mouth. It can also strip away the lining of your nose and may leave you with that feeling of burning that you get when you eat a lot of mints and breathe in cold air sharply. All this is however dependant on the quality of the product and the amount you take. Lanfear's Bane | t 10:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I suspect that inhaling cocaine through a straw would not have the desired effect of distributing the powder deep in the lungs. Larger, heavier particles (like powdered cocaine) would tend to settle and stick along the throat. To deliver particles deep into the alveoli – where the blood vessels are right against the surface – would require very fine particles: on the order of 2.5 micrometers or less. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

When people snort cocaine it is not going into their lungs (snorting powder into your lungs would feel awful). It goes up into their sinuses and dribbles down the back of their throat as a numbing, base-tasting liquid. It is not the most direct way to get cocaine (which would be to shoot it, obviously), but it offers a good compromise between getting a bunch of it quickly while letting it moderate itself down your throat a bit at a time. Inhaling it with a straw would have the powder still be very powdery (imagine sucking in baking powder, which is about the same in terms of texture) and cause you to cough, etc. Going through the nose allows it to mix with the mucus up the nose and became a runny liquid. It's more than a bit gross but of course when you are doing the drug you don't think about that too much. --24.147.86.187 14:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Chatting with Christopher Maleki

Where do I go if I want to chat with Christopher Maleki about my soap operas and the characters that are in them? Ericthebrainiac 02:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Apparently he has a myspace - there's a link on the Christopher Maleki article. You could also try writing to him care of the producers of Passions. However, he's a busy guy and you'll probably end up talking to a publicist rather than Christopher himself. FiggyBee 02:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd be rather surprised if he actually had much to do with the MySpace page. Most celebrities leave that to their publicists. It's generally rather hard to get to speak to any of those people in private. In terms of ideas you might have for stories and characters, you'll find that these people are EXTREMELY resistant to hearing outsider's ideas. The reason is a simple one - generally, the ideas outsiders have are just not that original and it's very possible that whatever the idea is, it (or something very similar to it) is already planned for a future episode - perhaps one they've even filmed already. If they patiently listen to your idea - then discover it's something they already have 'in the can' then much legal ugliness will ensue because you'll immediately assume they stole your idea. Since they generally aren't short of ideas, they'd rather simply avoid any semblance of impropriety by just refusing to listen to you. I've seen similar problems in the past when I worked in a research lab where we were instructed to refuse to read ideas sent in by the public in case we were already working on something similar. In truth, in most creative endeavors, ideas are cheap and plentiful and all of the work is in sifting through them to find the good ones and turning them into something useful - getting yet more ideas doesn't really help. SteveBaker 19:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Songs heard on Dame Chocolate

What were the songs heard on Dame Chocolate? Ericthebrainiac 02:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Donator's messages

What's the deal with the public message from people that have donated to wikimedia? Do all messages get equal airtime, or are they censored first? I've seen some several times - like "For tripling the number of elephants in Africa". How did wikipedia triple the number of elephants? Is there a list of these messages, or a list of noteworthy (ie. funny) ones? Aaadddaaammm 05:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The elephants were already asked about - see the archives. You can see the complete list somewhere, but I forget how to get to it right now... here. FiggyBee 05:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply! The one question I have left is: are all quotes shown in the banner at the top of the page, or is there some censorship going on? Aaadddaaammm 07:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

That's a false dichotomy. — Lomn 14:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Lomn, what a helpful reply! Please enlighten me as to what a third option may be, and what the answer to my question actually is. Aaadddaaammm 00:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

They may be hand-selected, but I wouldn't call it censorship. FiggyBee 01:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

300

How many yards is 300 meters? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JelloTube (talk • contribs) 06:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Go to Google and type this into the search box: 300 meters in yards

--Anonymous, 06:34 UTC, November 6, 2007.

The Heart

I really need you guys to find me a way to build a model of the heart?(also I know you are gonna say this question was already answered above but I've tried all the links and there nothing but GARBAGE!!!!! No offence intended.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.83.26 (talk) 06:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Does this help? Corvus cornix 18:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

types of research

notes on the following. a)correlational vs explanatory research b)descriptive vs exploratory research c)applied vs fundamental research —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.43.83.236 (talk) 08:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It would be far better if you had said "please help" and explained what the info is needed for.86.197.169.208 15:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)petitmichel

We have articles on most of those topics:

correlational research vs explanatory research

descriptive research vs exploratory research

applied research vs fundamental research

If, after reading those articles, you have more specific questions, we'd be glad to help. -- 22:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Non-Alcoholic Beer

whats' the difference in making process of the non-alcoholic beer (lower than 5%)and free-alcoholic beer(0%)?Flakture 11:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Some people have very low tolerance for alcohol, and may want to enjoy the taste. Some people/religous groups eg. Islam forbid alcohol. Non-alcoholic beers are sold in Saudia Arabia, where alcohol is illegal. Hope this helps.Cuban Cigar 12:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The question wasn't why it's manufactured, it was how is it manufactured. Dismas|^(talk) 13:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Per this the process is the same until the end then the alcohol is removed by vacuum evaporation. Which works due to different boiling points. Here is our article on the low/no alcohol beer Low alcohol beer - Dureo 12:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Per Dureo, the alcohol can be removed by vacuum distillation at moderate temperatures. Another method is to extract the bulk of the alcohol and water from the beverage by reverse osmosis (using high pressure to force the small alcohol and water molecules through a membrane), leaving a beverage concentrate behind. The alcohol can be removed from this mix by conventional hot distillation, and the remaining liquid used to top the concentrate back up. (more information.) Home brewers of beer can produce low-alcohol beer by omitting corn sugar (if any) from their recipe and heating the product to alcohol's boiling point to drive off most of the alcohol (instructions). TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that link Ten, was looking for the Good Eats beer episode instructions, I thought he made low alcohol beer but i cannot find it, but remember use quality malt. Dureo 14:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You can also remove much of the alcohol by Freeze distillation - whilst it's not a simple matter to get rid of all of the alcohol this way - reducing the amount is relatively easy. However, vacuum distillation is cheaper on an industrial scale. SteveBaker 19:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I know that freeze distillation is often used to increase the alcohol content of a beverage (see applejack and ice beer), but I'm having a little trouble seeing how it would be used to decrease the alcohol content. The stuff that freezes out first is (mostly) water ice; the alcohol stays with the rest of the stuff (sugars and esters and acids and whatnot) that gives the beverage its flavour. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It just depends what you do with it- if you remove the part that didn't freeze, you're lowering alcohol content. If you remove some stuff that DID freeze, you're raising it. Friday (talk) 22:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but if you remove the part that didn't freeze, then you're removing all the stuff that actually had flavour in it, as well.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

In which methods you mentioned the amount of alcohol become completely 0% ?Flakture 07:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Holy Roman Empire

I have searched wikipedia throughly and have not found any current information on the Holy Roman Empire or 21st century German monarchy. Specifically I am looking to research the following individual:

PRESIDENT & CHANCELLOR

His Imperial and Royal Highness Prince Karl Friedrich of Germany, Duke of Swabia, Duke of Saxe-Altenburg, Prince of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen-Rudolstadt de jure Emperor Charles VIII I.R.

www.almanachdechivalry.com/

All I know is that Pope Benedict XVI reinstated the Holy Roman Empire in 2002, and the Empress' name is Maria. This has huge political consequences but information is very challenging to acquire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.151.102.5 (talk) 16:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Pope Benedict XVI was only elected in 2005. You might also be interested in Holy Roman Empire. --Sean 16:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, are you claiming that you are the de jure Emperor? Who, then, is the Empress Maria of whom you speak? And why wouldn't Prince Lorenz of Belgium, Archduke of Austria-Este be the reigning and de jure Emperor, if there were such a person? Or are you perhaps Karl Habsburg-Lothringen? And why isn't Konrad, Prince of Saxe-Meiningen Duke of Saxe-Altenburg? And Friedrich Günther, Prince of Schwarzburg is the rightful heir of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen. Corvus cornix 18:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank-you TotoBaggins for the clarification found other sources the individual in question reinstated Christian chivarly et al. To Corvus cornix I was looking for additional info not a nasty lecture. If I could answer your questions I wouldn't be researching the topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.151.102.5 (talk) 21:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I see no evidence that the questioner claimed to be the de jure emperor. -- JackofOz 00:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it look like a lecture. I completely misread your question. Corvus cornix 17:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Historians' joke (ie not very funny) - the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman nor, strictly speaking, an Empire. Laugh now please. Almost as funny as the Diet of Worms. Excuse me while I hold my sides. --Dweller 08:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

internet connection

what is the fastest internet connection that is currently available for downloading????? I heard that FIOs is pretty fast right now, but i'm not sure that it is the fastest one around right now.--Dlo2012 17:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Off of the top of my head, either OC192 or 10 Gigabit Ethernet (both at 10 Gbit/s). If you meant available for business or residential connections from an ISP then those providing VDSL and VDSL2 offer maximums of 50-250 Mbit/s speeds. 86.21.74.40 17:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, i meant for people at home, not really businesses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlo2012 (talk • contribs) 17:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

that answer is complicated and depends on the area you live in. i kan reed 16:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

New Shoes

New shoes always give me blisters and sores, as I'm sure they do most people to lesser and greater degrees.

This occurs till the shoes are "worn in". Presumably either the leather gets softer due to wear or the shoes "molds" to the shape of the foot.

Is there anything I can do to speed up this process? Caffm8 17:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Ummm - I don't get blisters or sores from new shoes, but I buy them for comfort and utility, not for looks. DuncanHill 18:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

My my, aren't you just that much better than us then. Thank you for sharing! --24.147.86.187 18:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You could try wearing and walking around your new shoes at home for a bit. Take them off as soon as they start hurting. Maybe 20 minutes a day for a couple of days until they feel okay. It doesn't really speed up the "breaking in", but it divides the process into manageable segments. You won't find yourself stuck downtown with miles to go in painful shoes. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I suffer from the same thing. It is very hard for me to predict how my feet will react to new shoes as the experience in the store is often very different from how they will behave in the long run. I've never found a good way to speed it up, though I've found that alternating between my old and new shoes helps my feet heal up. I suspect a lot of the breaking in is accomplished very early on, but if you persist with foot injuries then they won't heal to the point that you will notice (and take benefit from) they are broken in until much later. But I could be totally wrong about that; it is a purely anecdotal observation. --24.147.86.187 18:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You might try buying shoe trees which are adjustable, and put them into the new shoes, expanding them just a bit to make the shoes stretch. Of course, only when you're not wearing them.  :) Corvus cornix 19:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You could do that by hand, massaging and *gently* stretching the areas where the shoes are tightest or rubbing. This could be done while watching TV or a movie, but does kind of waste time. Steewi 04:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There's some more possible suggestions here; personally I can't recommend any myself as the only I've come close to trying is wearing them for a short period each day for a few days, or wearing when I won't be doing much walking, etc. --jjron 08:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

For all-leather hiking boots, the technique I've heard about is to walk in a lake or river until the boots soak through, then continue walking around in them until they dry. This does not work with synthetic materials, and would probably damage dress shoes. --Carnildo 00:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

question about using an universal AC to DC adapter

Hi, Sorry, this is going to sound extremely naive. I am a little bit clueless about electronics and hence the following questions... Let us say that a camera uses 3.2 volts, but the adapter can give either 3 volts or 3.5 volts. which of the voltage is least harmful?. Current needed by the camera is not given, so too much of current (say 2900mA) will damage the camera? Current less than specified is not harmful to the camera? lastly, do most electronic goods these days have protection if one accidently changes the polarity of the power supply?. Thank you 18:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)clueless

A lower voltage is always better than a higher voltage, since it's much less likely to damage it, and I think it should work since it's just 0.2V. If current rating is more than the amount it draws its fine, since I = V/R and if you maintain V and R, I won't go anywhere, but if is less than the amount it draws, then it will overheat and generally not good. Usually there's a protection diode somewhere in the circuit but I'm not quite sure if every one of them has one. --antilived^{T | C | G} 19:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep. It's very unlikely that you'd harm the camera on 3v so I'd definitely try that first - if it works, you're OK. If not, then crank it up to 3.5v, that's still pretty unlikely to harm it - but more likely to make it work. Most battery-operated gadgets can cope with a range of voltages because rechargable batteries tend to provide less voltage than the throw-away kind...so try 3v first - then crank it up to 3.5v if it doesn't work at 3v.

The current cannot damage the camera. The camera will take as much or as little current as it needs and no more - if that is more than the adapter can provide (unlikely) then the adapter will get hot and possibly fry itself. But anything like a camera that runs on a handful of AA or AAA batteries will run off of one of those universal adaptors just fine. It's when you try to run something big like a laptop off of it that the trouble will start - but even then, the laptop is safe - it's the adaptor you'd need to worry about.

Oh - polarity - yeah. That's a much bigger concern. If you look carefully where the power plugs into the camera, you may see a little diagram that shows which is positive, the 'tip' or 'ring'. Most universal adaptors have a way to switch the polarity and you DEFINITELY want to get that right. If you have the original charger for the camera (maybe it stopped working or something?) that might help - failing that, look in the manual for the camera. SteveBaker 19:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I had one of those multi-voltage power supplies and accidentally plugged it into a digital camera when it was set to 12V rather than the required 3V, the camera never worked again :( It won't harm it using a voltage LESS than required but be careful not to use a higher voltage! GaryReggae 19:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

SteveBaker and Garyreggae: Thank you very much for your answers. The camera did not have an adaptor at all. This adapter is not stabilized. Should I buy a stabilized adapter?. Which is better, switching mode adapter or the other one (I don't know the name)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.220.46.40 (talk) 19:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it matters whether it's a switched-mode power supply or the other kind. Switched-mode supplies are generally smaller for the amount of current they can produce - but otherwise it's no big deal. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you talk about a 'stabilized' adapter. My best guess is that it means that they'll continue to produce the voltage they claim no matter the amount of current you drain from them (within limits of course). However, I can't imagine any power supply intended to be used to power different kinds of devices not being stabilised in that way. How do you know that the one you have now isn't stabilised? Is it just because it doesn't say that it is? If so - don't worry about it. Incidentally - I strongly agree with GaryReggae about being super-careful not to accidentally switch your power supply up to a higher voltage. If you plan to use this supply only for the camera then once you have it all working, I'd tape the voltage switch in position with some electrical tape so it doesn't accidentally get switched to too many volts in the future. If the camera didn't come with an adaptor, they'll almost certainly tell you in the instructions exactly what the supply has to be able to deliver. They'll also (probably) have some kind of protection in the event you get it wrong since they know you'll be buying your own supply rather than using one that came with it. If you don't have the instructions anymore, the odds are very good that you'll be able to download the manual from the manufacturer's web site. SteveBaker 00:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Banking

Impact of Rupee appriciation on Banking Industry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.159.224.250 (talk) 19:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Currency appreciation usually leads to reduced foreign investment and lower interest rates. Of course, it is driven by high growth expectations, which is generally associated with high/rising interest rates. As for the effect on banks, you will need to be more specific. When? Where? What effects? Plasticup ^T/C 20:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Availablity of business loans for ex-convicts from the U.S. Government

I've been told that small business loans are available to ex-cons from the U.S. Government, but have not been able to locate any information. (email address removed) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.168.152.155 (talk) 20:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

^{Email address removed — Matt Eason (Talk • Contribs) 20:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)}

Glowin' in the dark

Phosphorescence, photoluminescence, fluorescence, oh my poor brain...

My local toy store sells glow-in-the dark plastic stars, not entirely unlike these. I was thinking of getting some for my niece and nephew ...and steal a few out of the pack for me when they aren't looking... But do those things last? I've had glowsticks but they are disappointing because they run out of oomph so quickly. I'm hoping maybe the stars use completely different physics and won't die in a couple of days? Any experiences? Weregerbil 20:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Without providing all the technical details, the stars won't be like the glowsticks. The stars are "recharged" so to speak by light (both "charging" and dimming relatively rapidly). Glowsticks are a separate one-and-done chemical reaction. — Lomn 21:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I had glowing stars as a kid and they lasted for years. Note that the coolest glowing plastic star stickers are the very tiny ones, not the huge ones you had on that page (if you go to page 2 of that site, the "microstars" are probably what I am talking about). Tiny ones actually look reasonably like real stars when you are lying in your bed, which is awesome when you are a kid. Big ones look cartoonish and stupid, even to kids. In my experience when I was a kid, anyway. My sister had big ugly stars and I always thought they were lame. --24.147.86.187 21:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I bought a house that already has these things all over the "master bedroom" ceiling. I gather they are getting pretty old because they are more yellow than anything else during the day. They still stay "lit up" at night for several hours and I've owned the house for over 2 years now. Hope this helps, Garrie 21:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's have a shot at defining those three terms (none of which apply to your glow sticks!):

• Photoluminescence: Both phosphorescence and fluorescence are forms of photoluminescence. In both cases, light comes in, gets absorbed and re-radiated - that's photoluminescence.
• Fluorescence: the light is re-radiated at a different frequency than the light that came in. So (to pick a common example) when you shine UV light on cloth washed with certain kinds of washing powder, the energy from the UV light is re-emitted as blue light (this is how they truthfully claim "your whites will be whiter than white"). Since we can't see UV light, it looks like the cloth is glowing in the dark but in daylight, it looks like the cloth is reflecting much more incident light than a pure white surface would.
• Phosphorescence is actually the same kind of thing except there is a delay between the light being absorbed and re-radiated. That's what's happening with your ceiling stars.

Neither of those are what is happening in those glow sticks though. There are other effects that get confused with all of this:

• Watch dials used to be painted with radium to create Radioluminescence where radioactive particles from the radium hit another material such as zinc sulphide which then glowed by fluorescence - the radioactivity was actually fairly dangerous - so we don't do that anymore!
• Chemiluminescence is when light is emitted as a result of a chemical reaction. When you 'snap' one of those glow sticks, a chemical inside the glass tube mixes with the other chemicals inside the bendy plastic tube and the combination produces light.
• Triboluminescence in which crushing certain crystals produces light(!).
• Sonoluminescence where bursting bubbles in a liquid that's being excited with sound waves emits light.
• Electroluminescence where light is produced by electricity being passed through a material (like an LED).
• Incandescence where things glow because they are hot (like a regular light bulb).

There are still others - but I think they are all variations on one or other of those above. (eg Bioluminescence is just chemiluminescence that happens inside an animal or plant.)

SteveBaker 23:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You forgot Bioluminescence! That is the emission of light by a living organism as the result of a chemical reaction. I guess that is a form of Chemiluminescence... Plasticup ^T/C 01:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The ones I put up in my bedroom nearly 20 years ago are still glowing as brightly as when I first put them there (although I don't live in that bedroom any more). Their natural colour was an off-white, yellowy sort of colour. Steewi 05:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Questions About Magneto (band)

Did Magneto (band) break up forever? Ericthebrainiac 21:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I know that I love Magneto (band), but what if I download every song they have sung on LimeWire? Ericthebrainiac 21:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't answer the question about whether the breakup is permanent, but downloading their music on Limewire is very likely to be illegal copyright infringement. Do so at your own risk. Exxolon 21:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Phrases and Rome

Why is Rome used for the following phrases? "When in Rome" and "Rome wasn't built in day" I mean, Of course Rome wasn't built in a day. We could also say "Paris wasn't built in a day" or "When in Paris"

76.230.227.91America's American —Preceding comment was added at 22:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Basically Rome has been an important city as much in European culture as in history for many years. People studied works of classical literature as an integral part of education until quite recently. Hence any "smart" proverbs are likely to have used it if a city was required to make those coining them sound well-read. 83.147.140.199 23:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

For others tho, all roads lead to Paris.—eric 23:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

And all roads lead to Rome. All three idioms predate the modern English language ("When in Rome" is attributed to Ambrose, "Rome wasn't built in a day" is recorded at least as early as the 12th century), so it's not a case of "smart" people trying to sound classical - they genuinely are classical sayings, and date from a time when Rome was the only real city in Western Europe. FiggyBee 23:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Some more background on the origins of the two phrases: "When in Rome" and "Rome wasn't built in day". I'd go with 83.147's answer. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Some of these were literally true. In ancient times, all major roads literally did lead to Rome because it was a time when the Romans were the only people making roads and their major purpose was the movement of armies between Rome and it's colonies. Even after Rome fell and lost it's power the roads were still used. Many modern roads in Europe still follow the exact course of Roman roads because those roads never fell out of use - they were just gradually repaired and improved to what they are today. SteveBaker 00:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

see: Road#Historical road construction dating to 4000 BC.—eric 00:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The Anon above is on the right lines. Rome's pre-eminence in Western culture is easily forgotten today. For thousands of years, Rome dominated the thinking of leaders, both clerical and temporal. First, of course, was the Roman Empire, based in, yup, Rome. Overlapping this, and following St Paul, Rome became the centre of Christendom (don't forget that Protestantism didn't arise until this was well-set, and the split that arose between western and eastern churches was thought for many centuries to be something that could be overcome). So, there was political and religious reasons for it. And then add to this a cultural element. The Renaissance had a strong Italian impetus behind it (appropriate, since it was seen as a return to Roman standards) and while other cities had arguably stronger roles to play (eg Florence) once more Rome shone with their reflected glories. The Grand Tour made Rome an essential stop-over for the young "will-be"s of fashionable Europe. All in all, Rome dominated European thinking for so long in so many ways, it would be surprising if there weren't so many euphemisms and expressions that referred to it... many others have probably dropped out of usage. --Dweller 08:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

NB Contrast this with the (even more faded memory) of Jerusalem's centrality... cf Hip Hip Hooray. --Dweller 11:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Sny mndsk

Is there any logical way a well-travelled and well-used (by a British theatre company) Sony minidisk player can develop a fault of playing tracks at an increased speed?

We have never noticed the problem of the track speed varying during songs, but I swear sometimes it has played a disc at too high a tempo. Theediscerning 23:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

This seems like a very unlikely failure to me; the circuitry in the minidisk player is all controlled by a very precise crystal oscillator.

Atlant 00:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Laptop batteries

Is there any reason why a new battery needs to be "drained" before going on to use a laptop? I've been told it was like that with the older ones but not now. My friend insists it's still a problem if you don't, ie the battery doesn't last as long or some such. I hear the same talk abut mobile phone batteries too. I'm doubtful but does it make sense? Julia Rossi 23:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It's the Memory effect. I'm not up on which batteries have the problem & which don't. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Nowadays, it's not the memory effect but the fact that the very sophisticated charge controller integrated circuits used with lithium-ion batteries need to be "trained"; they don't know exactly how much electricity the battery holds until you've used it all up once. After that, they can much better estimate exactly how much energy remains in your battery.

Atlant 00:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

You made my day. Thanks for that. PS Can you "re-train" one you've been using? or will I have to wait until I get a new batt to do the right thing. Julia Rossi 22:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. If the laptop is not estimating the remaining battery capacity ("remaining runtime") very well,you can re-train batteries as the batteries age and their capacity diminishes. Usually (with the laptops I'm familiar with) one discharge that's deep enough to put the laptop into automatic sleep is enough to re-train the batteries, but you should check your owner's manual. As I mentioned elsewhere, deep discharging isn't good for the batteries so you don't want to do this too often, though, if you can avoid it. And as SteveBaker points out below, this doesn't affect the actual capacity of the battery, it simply allows the laptop to make better "remaining capacity" estimations.

Atlant 13:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Some people claim you can get back some of the power capacity you've lost - others say No. When I was into radio controlled model planes (where NiCd batteries were commonly used and you really didn't want to fly your plane until the batteries went dead!) - you could buy a 'NiCd cycler' that would repeatedly charge and discharge the battery in some special pattern that was claimed to improve batteries that had a severe case of 'memory effect'. I don't know whether they really worked or not. Anyway - even if they do work, unless you can find one specifically for a laptop battery, it's unlikely that you could repeat this special charge/discharge pattern enough times and with just the right recharge and discharge rates. So I think the answer is "No" in practice and "Maybe" in theory. SteveBaker 00:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

On my Panasonic Toughbook there is a setting in BIOS to retrain it which involves the laptop executing a full charge/discharge/charge cycle. Whether it restores the battery to full operating capacity I don't know. 86.21.74.40 00:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

All good. I'll try it and see. Thanks all, Julia Rossi 23:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

November 7

What's it called?

Do you call it a grilled cheese or cheese toastie? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.8.89.251 (talk) 02:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Is this a poll, or are you asking which name is more correct? Personally, I'd call it a toasted cheese sandwich or, if open, cheese on toast. FiggyBee 03:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

"Grilled cheese" is the usual name in the United States for the sandwich (not open-faced). Marco polo 03:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

(If you'll forgive me, Marco polo, I've added a Wikilink to your reply -- Atlant 13:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC))

Nowadays when I make them on a griddle, I call them grilled cheese. When I was a kid, and I tried to make them by squishing the bread and cheese together as flat as I could, then stuffing the whole thing in a toaster, my mother called it something else! — Michael J 03:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

In the UK it's also know as Welsh rarebit ---- WebHamster 03:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

No No No - a Welsh Rarebit is something entirely different. Go look for a recipe and see the difference. Welsh Rarebit/Grilled Cheese !!!!! Ggrrrrrrr. 81.145.241.148 11:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I said it was known as, not that it was :P ---- WebHamster 13:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree with FiggyBee - In Australia it's a toasted cheese sandwich or cheese on toast (presuming we're talking about the thing made by either toasting some bread, putting thinly sliced cheese on it, and placing it under a grill (cheese on toast) or by making a cheese sandwich and cooking it in a frying pan, under the grill or in a sandwich press type thing (toasted cheese sandwich) --Psud 11:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

In the Netherlands, it's called a Tosti. It's made in a special device that presses the sandwiches together while heating them electrically. The French have the Croque Monsieur, in which the outside of the sandwich is buttered, and the sandwich is baked in a frying pan (usually with ham as well). I can recommend this method. risk 16:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but when they're pressed together in Australia, they become a jaffle (which, in fact, redirects to sandwich toaster, amazingly enough). Confusing Manifestation 04:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Eating Korean food

There's this Korean restaurant near my office, and when you go there, you always get four little side dishes with your meal: kim chi, bean sprouts, what appear to be chunks of sweet potatoes and these little rectangles of fish.

Am I supposed to eat those things before the entree, intermittantly with the entree or mixed in with the entree? -- Mwalcoff 03:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about the others but kim chi is usually an appetizer and presumably a palate cleanser; you don't generally mix it with anything, though the article says you can mix it with rice. --24.147.86.187 04:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Exchange student

I am uncertain who to ask so I turn here. My mother is asking me for help for an exchange student from China. She is currently a student in a high school in Michigan and is interested in applying for college here in New York. Can she continue to stay in the country for college? Or does she return home to her country? I also spoke with an admissions person at the college I go to and he mentioned the application process followed by a student visa being issued. I am uncertain on some of the things my mother has said and I don't know where to go for answers. --Blue387 03:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It is quite likely that both the high school where she is currently an exchange student, and any of the colleges to which she wishes to apply, will have the answers she needs. The high school will know the basis on which she is currently a student, and what privileges that offers her; the colleges all deal with international students and will likely have experienece in just this situation. That's where I would start, with Admissions in the colleges and the Guidance Department in the high school. Bielle 04:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I have to apologize for repeating the suggestion about the Admissions Department in a college. My eyes just skipped over that bit in your question; I didn't mean to be rude. You might be more likely to get an answer here if you tell us what things have been said, by your mother or by the people you have already asked, about which you are uncertain. However, the process is likely quite technical, and the schools are the best places for the information. Bielle 05:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I just did a Google search on "student visa" USA, which led me to a US government site. A quick perusal suggests that, if the Chinese student is a true exchange student, and thus has a sponsor in the US, she is likely on an Visitor Exchange (J) Visa. There are provisions for transferring institutions within that visa category from within the US. I don't know if your student will qualify. This link[3] may answer some of your questions. Bielle 05:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Brand of Vodka

Hello, There is a brand of vodka that is popular around europe and asia. It is packaged in in a carton box similar to that of small juice boxes. This is just a vague memory but i think it was russian and the name was something similar to Prove, but don't take this too sirusly because i'm not too sure. Any guesses as to what this brand of vodka was called?

Thanks --99.226.10.124 03:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you read through List of vodkas and see if you can find it there? --jjron 08:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Mellow Gold Vodka comes in a carton. Image. Looks like it has some sort of Russian thing on it... Plasticup ^T/C 17:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't Mellow Gold, thanks though. I already looked through that list of vodkas and it wasn't there. If i remember correctly it was a white/gray packaging and it had a flat top. --130.63.135.23 18:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Where would be the ideal destination for a holiday? Why?

For example, the beach,etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.74.132.224 (talk) 03:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There are about a million possible answers, depending on factors such as where you live; what you like to do or see; how old you are; whether it's just you or you and a partner or you with your partner and tribe of 15 kids; how much money you have and how much you're prepared to spend; what mode of transport you will and will not consider; how much time you have ......we're good but not that good. Please give us something real to go on. -- JackofOz 05:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

A mountain stream well stocked with trout, at an elevation of at least 1200m, within 10km of home, within easy walking distance to a surf beach, with no phone service, where the weather is pleasantly cool, but warm enough for swimming, where the sea has good waves but no rips and flathead are abundant and easily caught. Because mountains are nice, trout are tasty and fun to catch. Because mountain streams are at their best at around that elevation. Because close to home means easy access and maximum holiday time. Because beaches are nice and surfing is fun. Because holidays are better if not interrupted by annoying phone calls. Because cool weather is nice. Because swimming is fun. Because you need waves to surf. Because rips are dangerous to inexperienced beachgoers (and you don't want your holiday spoiled by some idiot drowning themselves). Because flathead are tasty. Because lots of flathead are better than few flathead. It's just a pity that such a place doesn't exist. --Psud 11:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Boring! So bored. Nothing to do here but fish (THE most boring activity known to mankind) and swim (my pool is better). Can't even check my email and for some reason my goddamn cellphone isn't working. SteveBaker 19:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The answer to your first question is Italy. But if you want to know which destinations were voted top by the luxurious readers of Condé Nast Traveler, go look at the Readers' Travel Awards 2007. The top three are the North Male Atoll, Muscat, and the Maldives again (unspecific). Italy is only ninth on that list, dropping from fifth in 2006. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

i suggest Croatia (not just because i live here) :) cheers West Brom 4ever 21:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Sex

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis, prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page.

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. If you don't believe this is such a request, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or on the Reference Desk's talk page. --~~~~

Lanfear's Bane | t 09:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Congressman sees UFO

This is all over the place. I have heard this on FOX News, in which a Democratic Congressman has seen a Flying triangle UFO, and the Republicans make fun of the Congressman. The Congressman is Kasinnich. Can this be placed in appropriate articles ? 65.163.112.104 07:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The congressman is Presidential Candidate Dennis Kucinich, and it's already mentioned in his article. FiggyBee 08:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and if you read the transcript in the talk page you will see that he did see an "unidentified flying object", but had no idea what it was--certainly not anything to do with aliens or outer space, etc. He was laughing about this in the interview. If you take this term literally it simply means that something is seen in the sky, but the person doesn't know what it is--an experience we have all had. There are always many possible rational explanations for such phenomena.--Eriastrum 21:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Isaac Asimov was criticized by ufologists for using the term "flying saucer" rather than the more dignified "UFO". He responded (paraphrase): "But you folks insist on identifying them!" —Tamfang 23:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Unknown song lyrics

I was listening to a song from a video and I couldn't find the origin of it or the singer. Here are some of the lyrics to the best of my recollection:

big fish..?

some small town?

gonna miss your ?water?

when it's gone (3x)

I see you down on the corner

trying to look good to me

Said "do you want to party?"

But that ain't what you mean.

gonna miss your water

when it's gone

So you ask me for a quarter

because you ran out of gasoline.

Trying to get back to cleveland

but it was Buffalo last week.

Is there a way to rip a song from a .wmv file? There is dialogue between two people on the left channel and the song in question on the right channel and all I want is the right channel. --Blue387 08:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

mplayer can do that kind of thing - but figuring out how (it's a command-line tool) can be a fairly major undertaking! SteveBaker 19:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

inequitas I've found the same back ground track on a short adult movie clip posted on Redtube link here: http://www.redtube.com/15689 this content is of an adult nature, you must be over 18 years of age to view it, by clicking on the above link you agree that you are of the legal age to view it.

Household cavalry

Amusing photo in today's Times of members of the Household cavalry putting on their helmets, prior to appearing in the pomp around the State opening of Parliament. Amusing because they all seem to be bending to one side in order to put on their helmets. There's no explanation of why this is needed - human arms can normally reach a lot further than the crown of one's head. Does anyone know why the bending (and specifically why sideways) is needed? Is it because the breastplates restrict movement too much? --Dweller 10:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The photo can currently be viewed online by going to this timesonline link and clicking on "Slide Show" under "QUEEN?S SPEECH". It's photo #4 of 12 in the slide show. The breastplate explanation seems most likely to me. It looks like it's difficult to raise your arm vertically while wearing one of those. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Well found! Direct link seems to be here --Dweller 11:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Windows Movie Maker

Hello. A couple of months ago, my computer's microphone broke. No biggie, right? i mean i just used it to record songs and mess with them. I found out using the older version of Movie Maker that i can use its wave sound recorder to record pretty much any sound that is currently playing. and its crystal clear! its awesome! however, the newer version seems to be lacking this feature. anybody familiar with the newer version know how to record wave sounds?the juggreserection 15:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Usually on the Windows audio mixer recording panel there is a "What-U-Hear" input for soundblaster cards/drivers, other cards/drivers have something similar. All you have to do is enable that input in the mixer panel etc. ---- WebHamster 15:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

86'ed

what does this mean? Simply south 16:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There are a couple meanings and several possible derivations listed in 86 (number). --LarryMac | Talk 16:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we need to just point the questioner at a page that size when all they need to read is these few words from it:

• used as a verb, to "eighty-six" means to "ignore" or "get rid of".

--Anonymous, 00:51, edited 04:26 UTC, November 8, 2007.

Sorry, Anon, but there is also this

• generally used in restaurant or food service environments when a specific item is no longer available. For example, "86 baked haddock", or "the mussels have been 86'ed", or in a bar when you may have drank too much and can never come back. They will then say you have been randy guglerized, Which is the definition of 86ed.

Thus my reference to "a couple meanings". The questioner may also have been interested in the various theories of the term's etymology, or if not him/her, then somebody else who may be reading. It's a reference desk, I choose to refer. --LarryMac | Talk 14:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Right. "I 86'd that guy", in context, could mean "I fired him," "I ignored him," "I denied him whatever he wanted," "I killed him," etc. It essentially means negation of some sort. Context is important. --24.147.86.187 01:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Black paint under the eyes that special forces in the field and American football players use

What's the term (s) for this practice and why is it done? --BrokenSphere^{Msg me} 17:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

see: eye black.—eric 17:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

HEY

does god exist?the juggreserection 17:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in the same way that dreams exist. Plasticup ^T/C 17:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Look at deity, god, religion, spirituality, philosophy, atheism, meaning of life - there is no right or wrong answer. ny156uk 17:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no proof one way or the other, lots of supposition and theories, but no actual proof. ---- WebHamster 17:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget Existence of God, lots of good stuff in the references and further reading sections and a box at the bottom where you can "show" links to various arguements for and against. Happy reading! Azi Like a Fox 18:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There is certainly no way to prove that a being with literally infinite power does not exist. Whatever experiment you might try to do to prove it, a being with unbounded abilities can prevent or otherwise de-rail your efforts without you even realising it. So there can be no proof that god or gods do not exist unless their proponents are prepared to concede that these beings have testable limits to their abilities...which they typically don't. This is called "an Unfalsifiable" hypothesis - and these should generally be treated with great scepticism. The difficulty is that there is also no extant proof that god or gods do exist - and in many credo's, this is actually part of what it's all about (eg "God doesn't show us concrete proof that he exists because he prefers to test our faith."...hmmm - yeah - that's really convenient!)

So our actual provable knowledge here is zero. This means that the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Invisible Pink Unicorn (bbhhh) cannot be disproven either. In fact, there are an infinite number of possible beings with godlike powers that could exist and we would be unable to prove otherwise. Given that there is an infinity of possibilities, it is PRECISELY as likely that the Christian God actually exists as that the entire universe was created by a small purple teapot called Brian who demands only that we all jump up and down for an hour every Tuesday lunchtime or he'll doom us all to an eternity of hot dog eating contests. In the absence of any evidence for one particular god and a literal infinity of possible gods to believe in - why believe in any of them.

Whilst it's not absolute proof, some of the claims that adherents make of their religion (eg that the world was created in the garden of Eden - or that a flood once covered the entire earth) - are very testable and pretty much always prove to be false. However, there is no guarantee that God isn't messing with the evidence for whatever crazy reason...so this is hardly scientific proof.

Occam's razor says that in these cases, the simplest explanation is probably the best. In this case, the simplest explanation is that there is nothing out there. SteveBaker 19:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The correct answer is no. There is no intelligence that controls the outcome of events. --Taraborn 23:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

And you know this ... how? -- JackofOz 23:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Any capable mind can realize that no matter the amount of prayer, the chances of getting a certain number while rolling dice won't change, but I guess we, capable minds, are less than 1% of the population. --Taraborn 20:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The touble is that experiments like that don't convince anyone if it produces a negative result. If praying did influence the roll of a dice in a carefully controlled experiment - then we would deduce the existance of something very, very strange indeed in the universe...a god?...possibly. Personally, I wouldn't use a dice - the moment of radioactive decay of an isolated atom would be less controllable - and hence more convincing. However, a failure of the experiment to influence the roll of the dice is easily dismissed by adherents of religion by saying something like "God wishes us to have faith - to influence the roll of the dice would be to replace faith with certainty"...perhaps more simply "You have the nerve to waste God's time by asking him to do magic tricks?!"...either way, I'd be very surprised if even the most carefully performed experiment showing that prayer does not influence dice rolling would change one single mind...so it's truly a waste of time. SteveBaker 04:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

God says feed ye not the trolls. —Tamfang 23:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

One of my favorite quotes from the The Book of Jimbo. Jon513 13:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

To be clear, there are numerous concepts at play here. For starters you failed to define God, much in the same way that every bloody religion fails to define him/her/it -- if something has no identity how can it exist? There are more concepts... For example, if god doesn't exist should religion exist? And can one be part of a religion and not believe in god? And how acceptable is the Bible as proof of anything? Philosophy plays a major role here because Philosophy attempts to answer questions such as "How do we know if something exists" and "How to we know things?" (epistimology) -- and the interesting thing is that philosophy has different schools of thought, much in the same way that psychology has its different spins on things. Philosophy may teach you different ways of determining if something exists, such as having an identity, such as skepticism (just because we've never seen a species of sheep that always has 1 eye, doesn't mean that such a species doesn't exist -- or does it?). What about the dilemma that since we can't prove that something like god exists, how can we prove that it doesn't exist, much in the same way that we can't prove that a one-eyed sheep doesn't exist. The different would be that we know the identity of a one-eyed sheep, but there is no single agreeable tangible way to identify god.

This question can also be extended into questions such as heaven and hell, and Satan or the devil. What about angels and St Peter? It's all in the same boat.

In some way everything exists: ghosts exist, or at least the concept of a ghost exists: in story books, myths and legends. Anything we dream or imagine, or dream to imagine, exists the moment we dream or imagine it. So before you ask yourself "does something exist", first ask yourself, "what does exist mean?" and turn to philosophy for the answer Rfwoolf 18:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

"if something has no identity how can it exist?" Bwah ha ha ha hah! That's like when small children say "How can I be an [insert insult] when I don't know what one is?" (typically this is a terrible mistake on the playground) Defining something has no impact on its existence. But anyway, probably it would be better to leave the troll. Skittle 14:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Troll? Rfwoolf 11:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Asking something like 'Does God exist?' on the reference desks is pretty trolly behaviour, hence why Tamfang said 'feed ye not the troll' and hence why I said 'it would be better to leave the troll'. You could waste a lot of time and energy discussing this topic, but I doubt the person who asked the question is actually interested in the answer, and people attempting to discuss will almost certainly run into arguing amongst themselves and soapboxing. Ny156uk gave the best answer the desks can really give, so it is better to leave this question alone now. Notice how I was unable to resist the terrible appeal of engaging with your comments above? That way lies the heat death of the desks. Skittle 18:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks Rfwoolf

Signature

I was looking at other users signatures that had a little talk button that leads to their talk page. If you could help me get one That would help. -DarkZorro 18:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC) PS I won't be on for 2 hours.

Take a look at my signature code, by clicking the edit button for this section (or anybody's by clicking whereever ...). Based on the appearance of your user name, you know how to modify your signature via the "my preferences" page; all you have to do is add the appropriate wiki markup to add a link to your talk page. --LarryMac | Talk 18:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Pete Doherty

Now that we are seeing YouTube pics of Pete shooting up on heroin virtually minutes after being released on a suspended sentence (yet again) by a British Court for successfully demonstrating that he was "clean", when can those of us who look to the law to demonstrate that those who flout it will be punished, expect to see him at last being sentenced to a period of incarceration, and for how long. No legal advice required here - just a pragmatic answer. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.242.139 (talk) 19:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you know exactly when the images were taken, and how do you know that they accurately reflect what you claim is being done? Corvus cornix 19:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It's clear that this is new footage - Doherty is wearing the same clothes as he was wearing at an earlier awards ceremony, including the green wristband. I suppose the injecting could be fake, but I can't think of any reason why he would bother to fake it. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

AFAIK, he's 'fessup up to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tagishsimon (talk • contribs) 11:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I know nothing about this particular story, but in any case it's never rational to form an opinion about a law or policy based on such evidence. No matter how well a law works there will always be a few cases in which it fails disastrously, and no matter how badly a law works there will always be a few cases where it has exactly the right effect. Thus being presented with a single example of success or failure (that was selected on the basis of its success or failure) tells you precisely nothing about the effectiveness of the law. Only a properly conducted study can produce meaningful information. It's really, really unfortunate that so many laws get written on the basis of anecdotal evidence like this. -- BenRG 22:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Who cares? Is someone worried that he might use a microphone in a manner likely to cause injury to others? —Tamfang 23:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Does use of class-a drugs carry a custodial sentence? I cannot imagine that you can be sent away for recreational drug use (even of the hardest drugs). Now persistent law-breaking could get you a spell in the bargain. But we shouldn't not promote, like much of the papers seem to, the idea that we should use a famous (or even just high profile case) person as an example - the law should take into account many actions but it should not give individuals disproportionally worse sentences because of their fame. Additionally the showing of X on film/photography/whatever else doesn't add up to instantly evidence that cannot be argued in the court of law. However I consider it though the Pete in question (Doherty?) comes across as little more than a detestable, tedious, annoying wretch with few immediately visible redeemable features - though of course that shouldn't alter the way he is handled in the courts! ny156uk 00:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It's your classic crime & punishment versus rehabilitation argument. The OP suggests punishment, and/or has a belief that a custodial sentence will be more likely to lead to rehabilitation. A view that custody leads to rehabilitation may not be supported by the evidence; it may be that community disposals - Drug testing orders, and Drug programme requirements associated with community orders, may be more beneficial. I don't have the evidence to hand. But I do know that sentencing policy and design of requirements for activities placed on custodial and community offenders seeks to be evidence based - in the UK at least - and I'm prepared to make the assumption that the courts & probation service, rather than the OP, has mastery of the arguments on this one. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right of course, Tagishsimon, in your idealistic analysis of a situation with which you are admittedly uninformed, but what might your opinion have been otherwise, wherein the evidence you currently lack, would tell you that all the alternative therapeutic measures you suggest, had already been painstakingly pursued by the courts, and subsequently proved not to have worked, with the effect set out by the OP, that the courts have been seen to be (perhaps overly) lenient in dealing with Pete's problem many times in the past, but might now perceive another obligation in its duty, which is to sanction his repeated and yes, widely publicised rejection of those opportunities, which irresponsible actions have also served to put the court itself, and its leniency/understanding, in a highly critical light amongst the wider British Law-Abiding Public? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.240.146 (talk) 18:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Research on Sports Massage as related to the sport of Boxing

I am trying to locate articles that offer how sports massage or sports medicine have enhanced an athletes performance, and offer specific massage techniques that correct common injuries. Please let me know if you have any reference material or articles relating to this subject.

Thank you, Sherry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.53.197 (talk) 23:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

email address removed SteveBaker 00:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I have not yet found anything in Wikipedia specific to massage for boxers. The Massage article mentions that "The 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta was the first time that massage was offered as a core medical service." It also has a very short sports section that links to an osteopathic Muscle Energy Technique. --Milkbreath 01:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

November 8

to become a movie critic....

what would i have to do to become a movie critic??? What should be my first step??--Dlo2012 03:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Appaly for a colum at a local newspaper. Then get one at a regional one then state one. BUNNYS 03:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I think your first step should be learning to write proper English (assuming that you intend to write reviews in English). Editors aren't going to look favorably on your work when they see things like "i" and "???" --Anon, 03:30 UTC, November 7, 2007.

Yes, it rather depends what you mean by a first step. Literacy is certainly very important, as well as articulation, insight, and wit, and a sound understanding of the film industry and familiarity with lots of movies of various genres. But if you haven't already done so, watch lots of movies and read as many reviews as you can as a first step.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Which form of film criticism are you interested in, journalistic film criticism or academic film criticism? They’re rather separate fields. Either way, getting a good education would be a rather essential first step. For academic film criticism, getting an education that emphasizes film theory, like a degree in Cinema Studies from NYU would be a good avenue to go down.

The educational background of existing journalistic film critics seems to be all over the place. Sometimes the education seems very reasonable for a journalistic film critic. For example, Leonard Maltin has a degree in journalism, and Roger Ebert did graduate work in English. But some reviewers have an unexpected education. For example, Michael Medved studied law, and Janet Maslin has a degree in math. I think Harry Knowles probably doesn’t have a college education at all, but most journalistic film critics can’t get a start that way. MrRedact 10:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Personally I wouldn't say that a college degree is a necessary prerequisite for any kind of a career in journalism. As Nicholas Tomalin once said, "the only qualities essential for real success in journalism are ratlike cunning, a plausible manner and a little literary ability." The only way into the field is through experience. You can't expect to get a post as a movie critic as your first job in journalism. You have to get your foot in the door. Bunnys's advice about working for a local newspaper is spot on, but it might just be as a general writer. Don't expect to get paid for a while. Offer to do unpaid work at the smallest publication in your area. Build up a portfolio of writing, and then try and specialise in writing about film at a later date. Good luck. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In this day & age, get a blogger account and start posting your own film reviews. It's not like you need anyone's permission, and by so doing you gain experience and build a track record which would be useful evidence should you later seek paid work in this field. Other activities would be to join a film society (assuming such a thing exists wherever you are) and get involved in their programming. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I once knew a guy that did the film reviews for a monthly or weekly magazine from time to time. He was a talented story-teller (read: writer), had been reading books most of his childhood, had an intense vocabularly, but by story-teller I mean he was a pathalogical liar - a drug addict, so used to lying and conning his way through life, completely in denial about his addictions and convincing all those close to him that he was 'clean' and only dabbled in weed. My point is he used to submit his reviews so narfed that his grammar, spelling, and punctuation were attrocious, and it was always left to the editor to make heads or tails and format it properly. Even when he was a writer for TV his stuff was never literally correct. My point is, in some cases spelling, grammar and punctuation aren't as important as the content. The various presses normally use proofreaders anyway. Rfwoolf 18:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Nicholas Tomalin wasn’t speaking from personal experience about trying to get started in journalism without a degree – he has a degree in English Literature from Cambridge. If you thumb through the biographies on our list of notable journalistic film critics, you’ll see that as a whole they’re a quite well-educated bunch. I’m not saying it’s impossible to get started in a career as a journalistic film critic without a college degree, but it’d certainly be a lot harder. Journalistic film criticism is a competitive field, and it’s a lot harder getting a publisher to take you seriously if you don’t have a college degree on your resume. There’s a lot that can be learned about film by taking some classes in the subject. And it’s a lot easier to learn how to write well if you have a prof giving you feedback on papers you’ve written. An editor might clean up your spelling and punctuation for you, but he’s not going to be too keen on the idea of tutoring an unknown film critic on the elements of composition. MrRedact 19:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Horace King

In the featured article on the above mentioned man, it states that in the latter part of his life he was ellected to a position of authority, but did not pass many bills, only one of which ever became law, the prohibition of alcahol in ...alabama. What I wish to know is how is this possible since African Americans did not get the vote until the 1960's?!?!?!?!?! Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.191.136.3 (talk) 12:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

That's Horace King (architect), btw. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

King was in the Alabama Legislature from 1868 through 1872, during Reconstruction when many white Southerners (that is, those who supported the Confederacy) were prohibited from voting, while newly-freed blacks were encouraged to vote. For a short period after the Civil War, many African Americans were elected to state legislatures and some even to Congress (see Reconstruction#African_American_officeholders). For example, while King was registrar of Russell County, he and the other two registrars registered over 3000 African Americans to vote, but fewer than 100 whites. In the early 1870s, many whites regained the right to vote, and either passed laws restricting blacks' right to vote, or used intimidation (such as the Ku Klux Klan) to virtually eliminate the black vote until the 1960s. -- Lissoy 14:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Colored people

Some people react as if insulted when the term “colored” is used in association with race. They react by saying something like “I’m not a Telly Tubby.” The NAACP (the National Association for Advancement of Colored People) says that the phrase “people of color” or “colored people,” while not used very often today, was used frequently at the turn of the century to mean non-Caucasians. Today the term “Black” is used to mean non-Caucasian, although the NAACP has no plans to change its name.

The ancient Egyptians associated skin color with nationality. In Ancient Egypt there were four distinct nationalities associated with skin color, manner of dress and customs. In biology cuticle color is often associated with a domain when used as taxa. For instance, a Horned Orb-Spinner’s domain may be associated with the different colors of its horns and other parts of its body, just as Ancient Egyptians associated human skin color (along with manner of dress and behavior) with peoples from various nations including, Syrians, Nubians (Blacks), Libyans, and Egyptians (Brown).

It seems possible therefore, using modern computer and video technology, that the issue of referring to people as "colored" can be resolved by acknowledging that everyone, including Caucasians, are "colored" to a certain extent. For instance if you are 100% white then your skin will reflect 100% red, 100% green and 100% blue. If you are 100% black then your skin will absorb 100% red, 100% green and 100% blue. Since actual reflection and/or absorption of color by skin does in fact occur somewhere in between it seems the term "colored" can be applied to everyone by indicating the percent of reflected and/or absorbed color to identify someone.

For instance, on average my skin reflects 37-38% red, 31-32% green and 31-32% blue of incandescent indoor ceiling light. Bottom line is that everyone is colored, just in some cases, to a different extent.

Dichotomous 13:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a question in that, Dichotomous? With all due respect, we can see with our eyes that everyone is coloured. Xn4 13:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It should also be obvious that the "question," if for your benefit it must be stated is, what's wrong with using the term "colored?" Dichotomous 13:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You answered it yourself, really. "Some people react as if insulted when the term “colored” is used in association with race." See Euphemism#The "Euphemism Treadmill". 69.95.50.15 13:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

(ec)As with all other arbitrary nomenclature, its rightness or wrongness is subjective. As you noted at the top, "colored" has been generally supplanted by "black", and you're likely to encounter people who object to its use. And I'll echo Xn4 that the question was not obvious at all. — Lomn 13:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

(ec) I think Xn4's remark was fair & your response, Dichotomous, uncalled for. I think the problem with colored (apart from the appalling spelling) is that it is applied only to a subset of people, and that subset objects. Were it applied to all people I'd agree that there would be less room for complaint, but equally the word would be less useful as a discriminator of the subset. And all of that, to use your words, should be obvious. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

LOL... Englishmen (or women) no doubt. My question was not intended to solicit a response from you, but I find it interesting that you did in fact respond so bitterly, in absence of any understanding whatsoever of what slavery might be like on the receiving end. Dichotomous 14:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

That's such a stupid response. Any "bitterness" was to do with your response to Xn4's comment and had nothing to do with an understanding of slavery. I'm sorry you did not have the good grace and common courtesy to acknowledge your error. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Americans are no longer required to follow English spelling, here or anywhere else in the world. Dichotomous 14:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that comment about spelling was meant to be taken entirely seriously... Bistromathic 14:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that there is a justification for disliking use of the word "coloured". As an analogy, I can imagine disabled people being offended by being referred to as "differently abled" or "specially abled" or something. I think that the problem with these words is that they are far too general, and conspicuously so, almost as if the person using the terms thinks that the disability is a bad thing, and intentionally uses vague euphemisms to avoid drawing attention to it. I would imagine the same applies to describing the colour of someone's skin: saying coloured makes it sound a bit like you are shying away from "black" as though it is an unpleasant concept. However, "black" and "white" also seem silly words to use, as nobody has skin that is even close to being perfectly white or black. We should probably start describing people as "7% cyan, 42% yellow, 18% magenta", etc. (I have no idea what colour that describes). That would have the additional advantage of making racism sound completely ridiculous. Bistromathic 14:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It would make normal conversation pretty ridiculous too. "Police are looking for a male #FFE2CB suspect...". 69.95.50.15 15:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

"Colored only"

"For colored people"

The termed was used almost exclusively during the period of racial segregation in the United States. NAACP's name is historical and considered acceptable for those reasons, as the page on the group states in the introduction. Usage today connotates the attitude of segregation. Thus it is seen as offensive. The term has always been highly political when applied to people; claiming that it might be used neutrally is either accidental or intentional ignorance about how language works. You might also take a look at the page Colored which describes some of the history of the term. It is considered an out-of-date term and thus reflects an out-of-date sensibility about race relations. If you are going to express a (misguided) desire for pure language literalism, why not start with something a bit less politically and historically charged and try to convince people that instead of the term "white" they should use specific chromatic pigments? It'll be equally fruitless but it'll also make you appear less ignorant of the history of race relations. --24.147.86.187 15:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

OK - let's try not to dodge the actual issue here. Of all the attributes a person has - why pick the colour of their skin as the first thing you might want to say about them? Well, it's obvious - it's one of the top two most noticeable characteristics of someone whom you only just saw for the first time - on a par with their sex maybe. (Note carefully: I said "noticeable" - I didn't say "important".) So we need words to describe people's skin colour without offending them. Please don't get me wrong though - it's certainly not the most important characteristic - once you've actually met someone properly it rates down there on the importance scale slightly above eye colour and below their like/dislike for shellfish as far as I'm concerned. But it's noticable and descriptive - so you absolutely do have to have a decent vocabulary of non-offensive terms to describe a handful of clearly distinguishable skin tones - just as we do for eye colour, hair colour and so on. The problem is that as soon as you pick a word, some racist idiot is going to pick it as a term of abuse - and then the rest of us have to scurry around and find another word to use instead. Each time around, the word we choose gets less and less meaningful. "People of colour" is indeed a bloody stupid term...and I'll be happy to see the back of it...but I fear that whatever comes next will be worse. As '69 points out, cripples became disabled people who became "differently able"...an utterly ridiculous term with no validity whatever from a linguistic perspective. But short of having vocabulary police who check on these things, I don't see any way for any term we choose not to be turned into a perjorative by someone. It sucks - but it's not avoidable. "Black" and "White" aren't very descriptive - 'white' people are pinkish-yellow and 'black' people are brown...it's a terribly inaccurate pair of words - we could switch to saying "Pink" and "Brown" instead...but what's the point? It'll only be a matter of weeks before those get turned into words you can't use anymore. So just tell me what the politically correct terms are for different percentages of dermatologic melanin concentrations and I'll use whatever works this week - but I do need a word for purely practical reasons. SteveBaker 15:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

How about "a minimum melanin person", "a medium melanin female", "a maximum melanin man"? :) ---- WebHamster 20:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

SteveBaker said: but I do need a word for purely practical reasons. ... This line of reasoning has an appealing air of pragmatism and rationality to it, but it seems to miss one crucial point: pragmatism and rationality are not always appealing to human beings. If pragmatism were the only consideration, there might be no compunction for people to speak of others in the most detached and insensitive ways:

• "Hello madam, is there a term I may use to efficiently describe the far-above-average size of your breasts?"
• "Hello sir, do you have a preference regarding the manner in which I describe your bodily odors?"
• "Dear Susan, before I agree to marry you, I request that you provide me with a term I can use when introducing you to friends and family; a term that conveys your history of childhood abuse and latent mistrust toward others, both of which you have admitted to me openly."

Just because something is "noticeable" or even "distinguishing" it does not necessarily constitute something someone wants to be "defined" as, or even referred to as, even once. This is so even if that "defining characteristic" is inherently benign when viewed with the disinterested eye of emotionally-detached logic and complete impartiality, if any such "eye" indeed exists in the world at all. dr.ef.tymac 01:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The word "Black" has been acceptable for decades and shows no immediate signs of not being acceptable; it is sufficiently broad in describing the social and racial categories without necessarily presuming nationality or regional origins. For all of the hub-bub that our friendly white male internet users occasionally have about having to change their terms every few "matter of weeks", these things are considerably more stable than one might make out. I think there is a lot which could be read into the apparent dislike of linguistic inspecificity on this issue but we are perfectly happy it on dozens of others. "Colored" has been out of vogue (in the US, anyway) since the 1960s; if you haven't been able to adapt by this point, I suspect the problem is on your end. --24.147.86.187 15:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Out of vogue perhaps, but not out of use by even Black folk who might have been raised in the 1960's and are still alive (God forbid. Who needs all these old elderly people with their archaic terms around clogging up the works anyway?). The problem is that as mentioned above "Black" is becoming a derrogatory term, not due to the occasional racist, but due to the bahavior of the population who have chosen it for their own. If we can't move backward to "colored" then yes, why not move forward to a hex triplet that decodes to a color patch or a patch that encodes to #FFE2CB or more likely (being chased by the cops) to #000000)? ....after all it is the British who have taught us to use numbers in place of peoples names as in "Is that you double ought seven?" What kind of deal is that for a name? Dichotomous 17:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

"Black" shows no signs to me of becoming derogatory. It is used as a statement of pride by the Black community. It is far more commonly used than the census term "African-American" by members of the Black community from what I can tell. "Colored" on the other hand is not used in anything but a historical context from what I can tell. In any case, colors as names for races or ethnic groups have never been strictly about the color of the skin; Japanese have "white" skin but are not considered "white" (this was actually the subject of Supreme Court case in the 1920s—Takao Ozawa v. United States). --24.147.86.187 22:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

--24.147.86.187 22:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

problem is that as soon as you pick a word, some racist idiot is going to pick it as a term of abuse - and then the rest of us have to scurry around and find another word to use instead. (Steve Baker). That is a problem, the solution to which I don't have - although describing the offended party as a "racist idiot" is not something I'd agree with at all. If anything, they're trying (probably too hard) to eliminate forms of racism, not promote them. A related issue is that words describing a person's colour or ethnic background are often used in contexts where the colour or ethnicity of the person is utterly irrelevant, and where, if the person in question had been Caucasian, no such term would have been considered necessary. This borders on racism. A simple example - compare "I work in a small team - my colleagues' names are Mary, Peter, Ruth and Gordon" with "I work in a small team - my colleagues' names are Mary, Peter, Ruth and Gordon, who's an aborigine". There's nothing offensive about describing an aborigine as an aborigine when the occasion demands, but describing Gordon as such when his ethnic background has nothing whatsoever to do with the purpose of the statement makes an unnecessary distinction in his case - a racial distinction. -- JackofOz 23:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

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User:Dichotomous, are you refering to my poor attempt at humour in your previous post about the NAACP here[4]? Otherwise I'd love to know who you are refering to, we share the same bad humour! It was indeed to show that the term seems ridiculous to me and completely inacurate. From my experience painting portraits, I find that we are actually all the same colour (well Hue really) just a different value (colorimetry). Keria 18:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps subconsciously but perhaps you may not be aware of a study I am aware of in which skin color plays a very significant role in regard to conscious and subconscious first impression due to the association of color and dirt or even certain mold and feces. Otherwise would not the Marines wear black instead of white gloves when inspecting recruit barracks for accumulation of dirt? Dichotomous 20:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Mold on food is commonly white, as are maggots, and those tapeworms that sometimes crawl out of my dog’s ass. Maybe that’s why caucasian skin tones are naturally disgusting. MrRedact 00:53, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see any reason that the first sentence has any bearing on the second. Are you suggesting that the notion of dirt being readily apparent on white gloves is discriminatory? — Lomn 20:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Er ... I was refering to the stupid Teletubbies joke. I know racism and more general prejudices play a big part in social interactions. It has some dreadful consequences in terms of all of us living together on a happy planet and strangely enough also has some minor positive aspects in social interactions. These might include the tendency of some kind people to be more helpful and adjust their manners towards people who they recognise as foreign thinking they might need time to adjust to local customs or who might be of different sensitivities. This of course is still racist behaviour (trying to have a npov here - so hard) in the spectrum of which hate takes obviously an overwhelming place. I'd love to read the study you mention. Keria 21:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

When you think of dirt do you think of black or white, consciously or subconsciously? If the Marines thought of dirt as white they would in all probability use black gloves to reveal accumulation of dirt rather than white gloves. For instance, in a kitchen where cakes and bread are made from flour. That would be a great place to use black gloves to reveal flour which might turn to dirt or for all practical purposes is dirt or waste. What is significant is the fact that psychologically if we did nothing but look for flour all day and knew no other kind of dirt then in our minds whenever we saw something white we might think it was dirt. Psychologically then since most people associate dark things with dirt it is quite understandable if they consciously or subconsciously fall victim to associating dark colored skin with dirt, unless of course they had dark colored skin themselves, which then would tend to make the point why discrimination may be based on skin color in the first place. Dichotomous 21:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

To go along with what you say Dichotomous I remember reading about how much harder it was to read expressions on a very dark face, which made people initially distrusting and unconfortable. But on your point, what about coffee and chocolate? I guess these are positive analogies for someone's skin tone. Keria 22:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

If I worked in a chocolate or coffee factory then, like the analogy of a bakery, I might have a tendency to initially see some dark colored things as possibly not being dirt. The problem is for the majority of situations. Here is another somewhat related personal example. I have a freckle on my hand. I've truly never noticed it, much less questioned if it was dirt, until after I lived in a house were the previous resident had lots of dogs and cats. It took almost a year to get rid of the last flea and tick but even today when I see that freckle on my hand I do not think it belongs to me. Instead I stare at it until I'm sure its not a tick or flea. Most people who are exposed to dirt in some way have the same regard more or less for skin color, especially if the dirt is filth like feces. Dichotomous 22:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Why such controversy? Many people feel insulted when I call them 'colored.' I don't want to make people feel insulted. So instead of calling them 'colored,' I call them something else. Like 'Bob.' Or 'Sharon.' -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

If you were talking on the phone about your new friends Bob and Sharon it might not even come up as to whether they were colored. If it did would you respond that they were colored or Black or White or whatever their color happened to be? Dichotomous 23:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

As I explained before, the power of having a useful, neutral word to describe the colour of someone's skin isn't in talking about Bob and Sharon - you know their names and you use them...duh! It's when you need to point in the direction where 50 yards away several unknown people are standing and say to the person next to you: "Hey - look at that guy over there! He's got that new laptop I've been thinking of getting." - you said "Guy" so that they knew it wasn't one of the women standing over there - 'person' wouldn't have been enough to pick him out of the crowd. But sometimes you need to provide more information "Hey - look at that guy in the red shirt!" - but for all one might wish to be 'colour-blind' and not bring race into a discussion, it's often bloody convenient to say "Hey - look at that white guy over there!" or "Hey - look at that redhead over there!"...or..."Hey - look at the guy with roughly 40% of the maximum quantity of human dermatological melanin!" because - quite honestly, skin colour is often a pretty good visually distinguishing factor. We don't say "Hey - look at the guy with the blue/grey eyes!" because it's really hard to tell eye colour accurately at a distance of more than a couple of feet. That's why we need language for this - and it needs to be convenient to use, clear and as unambiguous as possible. I'm happy to say "Black" or "White" - but I'm unlikely to say "Hey - look at that male person of colour over there!" because it's a useless, vague term. SteveBaker 13:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

But why should we see dirt as a negative concept anyway (if that's what you are saying)? 130.88.47.47 09:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know - and I don't see how it's relevent. I don't think that even the white supremacist nut-jobs perceive dark skinned people as having 'dirty' skin. This is a specious argument because nobody is arguing against the obvious. SteveBaker 13:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

edit break

See euphemism treadmill. Almost every word used to describe a minority is considered offensive after a while and is replaced with a new one. The word "retarded" was originally a nice word to replace "imbecile" or "feeble-minded." Eventually, "retarded" developed a negative connotation, so now they're "people with developmental disabilities." Twenty or 30 years from now, there will be another term. Negro is a classic example. It simply means "black." The Spanish word for "black person" is negro. But in the late 60s and early 70s, it was replaced in English with the word "black." There is absolutely no logical reason why "negro" should be considered an insult, but try seeing how far you'll get in society using the word all the time. Colin Powell got in hot water a few years ago for using the word "Chinaman" -- a perfectly acceptable word 50 years ago, but a faux pas now.

What strikes me is the continued use of the word "person of color" to describe a non-white person. White people have color too -- kind of an off-white, peachy color, but a color nonetheless. -- Mwalcoff 23:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm setting up a computer program to create a palette, rather than just one color of my skin, or at least colors from a larger area than a single pizel. Instead of a single color an individual person might best be represented by a whole pallette. I'll post it here when I'm done. Dichotomous 23:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, the initial palette extraction and photo leave a bit to be desired but are okay for a first attempt. Palette swatch had to occur at least 5 times to be included, although a higher number would have reduced the entire palette a great deal. Photo is of chest area in both incandescent and emitted light from video monitor. All in all the palette generated matches the photo so now on to reducing its size by increasing the minimum number of occurrences. If you are brave enough you may view it here. Dichotomous 03:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The page Colored points out that in colonial America the term "colored" did not mean only "black", but also, in various contexts, Native American, various kinds of southern Europeans and northern Africans, among many others. Although over time the term may have become thought of as exclusive to "blacks", Native Americans, especially mixed blood American citizens, were quite often classed with "free people of color" regardless of whether they had any African ancestry. This was particularly true in the days of Indian slavery and at least up until Native Americans became actual citizens of the US. In the Pacific Northwest (Seattle, for example), there was, and still is, a sizable population of mixed "white" and Native American people. Until surprisingly recently these people were classed as "colored", with all the restrictions of civil rights experienced by other "colored" people, whatever their ancestry. A common form of this, in Seattle, well into and past the mid-20th century, was housing segregation, with many neighborhoods restricted to "white" people only. My point here is only to point out that "colored" has never meant only "black" or "African ancestry" in America. Pfly 06:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Typeface used on the U.S. "nutrition facts" panel

Can anyone tell me what font it is that is almost universally used for the nutrition facts label in the United States? (Univers maybe?) Cheers! bdesham ★ 16:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Helvetica, according to the first Google hit for "nutrition facts label font": [5] jeffjon 16:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I really have no idea why I didn't just Google it first :-) bdesham ★ 18:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

That's not Helvetica . Note the slanted cut on top of the letter "t". --Nricardo 04:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind. Should have looked at the whole darned thing. --Nricardo 04:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

kazoo

i cant find an mp3 of a kazoo playing, can someone help me out? thanks alot, RobertsZ 17:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You might have luck searching specifically for song titles listed in Kazoo#Professional_usage. Beatles, The Cure, Red Hot Chili Peppers, etc, should be fairly easy to find recordings of. jeffjon 17:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

thanks, but that wasnt quite what i was looking for, i just wanted a sample of a kazoo solo, never mind, i have replaced it in the quiz with a hurdy gurdy, a bit more of an obscure instrument. thanks again, RobertsZ 17:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

• One of the finalists in the Belgian preselections of the Junior Eurovision Song Contest used a kazoo in the opening of their song. They're called "Swing". See this page. - 131.211.175.100 12:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Imports

Which country exports the most Gold metal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.118.158 (talk) 17:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

South Africa is the world leader in production (USA and Australia are tied for a close second) and since they likely use little gold internally, South Africa is probably the world export leader as well. The US is a net exporter of gold - one of few mineral commodities for which this is the case. More info at this PDF. Cheers Geologyguy 17:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting question and answer. But as an aside, what is the point of gold, apart from its medical, engineering, artistic, and pharmaceutical properties? Seriously - you can't eat it, drink it, take it with you when you die, or wear it in public without fear of being mugged, robbed, raped even, and possibly killed. And to lock it away at an exorbitant cost, including insuring it, is as seemingly silly as owning a classic artistic masterpiece and locking it away in a bank vault in Switzerland. So why not invest in a cancer clinic or similar and have a sign outside saying, "Without the contribution of xyza, this clinic, and the countless lives it has saved, could not have happened"? Surely, if someone with too much money wants to stand out from the crowd, isn't something like the latter course of action more likely to draw admiring glances for centuries yet to come? 81.145.240.146 20:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Apparently you CAN eat it [6] [7]! Keria 21:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

And drink it. --LarryMac | Talk 21:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Manius Aquillius would disagree.—eric 22:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It isn't "locked up for viewing purposes," it is sold, converted into capital, turned into jewelry, etc. It is a commodity. Also don't confuse the idea of the US as a gold exporting country with the idea that it is the US government which does the gold mining — they don't. --24.147.86.187 22:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the point of gold is the same as the point of diamonds, Michelangelo, Picasso et al. A Martian might say these things have no or minimal intrinsic value, but some Earthlings like them very much and because they are rare, and in the artistic cases unique, those who are in a position to sell them put a very high price on them and those who are in a position to buy them think the price is worth paying. Just why we like them so much is another question - but we do, and we're not going to suddenly stop liking them, and that's all that matters as far as supply and demand is concerned. -- JackofOz 22:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, and in any case putting value on anything becomes a rather cyclical thing (I think gold is pretty, thus I would pay money for it; even though you don't care what it looks like, if you see I find it to be valuable you might try to get some to sell to me, etc.). (Cf. [[commodity fetishism]) My point was that gold has a value and is a rather key part of the world economy at this point. It doesn't just sit on display; it becomes a way to transfer value into something tangible and then use that as a generic way to exchange value, etc. --24.147.86.187 22:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Gold is used in jewelery not because of vanity reasons, but more for practical reasons. In elemental form, it reacts poorly with other chemicals, making it very corrosion- and tarnish-resistant, it is hard enough to retain its shape in the face of day-to-day wear and abuse, yet it is easy enough to work with if you are a jeweler that you can create some truly beautiful pieces with it. Gold is unusual in that it is a non-silver metal in its pure form. In other words, gold will still be used in many of its ornamental uses (jewelery, etc.) even if it was as cheap and plentiful as aluminum. As to your larger question of why people spend a lot of money on jewelery to begin with, that's a different question for future philosopical discussions. Sonic Craze 21:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

To add to the good points everyone has added, Gold was a good commodity because it is very dense so it was easy to measure how pure a sample of gold was by checking its density. I think that before modern times it was believed to be the heaviest metal in existence. -- Diletante 03:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

A few years ago, when the price of gold had been in the doldrums for a while, I was told by a supposedly knowledgeable economic geologist that the price of gold had started to reflect its value as a commodity, for the uses to which it is put, rather than the premium for "Picasso quality". However, given recent trends in the price, this does not seem to have really happened, quite yet. Cheers Geologyguy 22:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Car Showroom

When you go into a showroom and view the cars on offer do you receive the car you have been looking at and decided to purchase, or a copy of the specific car? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.27.99 (talk) 18:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

If you are buying a new car, you will probably want to pick which color it is, what options it has, etc. and those likely won't match what is on display in the showroom. If they don't have one like that anywhere on the lot, they can search through a database of dealers to find one that is exactly like the car you want and have it shipped there. If you do just want the car that is on the showroom, then I believe you can just buy it. Recury 18:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Car dealerships will be more than happy to sell you the very car you're looking at. They'll do the whole order-from-the-factory thing, but they prefer to move the ones that are on the lot first. — Lomn 19:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

While out on a test drive a few months ago, the car that was in the showroom was bought, removed, and replaced with another car of the same model. We were a bit surprised to find a different car in the showroom when we got back from the test drive. The color was completely different. My wife looked at me and asked me something like, "Didn't that car used to be beige?" Dismas|^(talk) 19:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The last two new cars I've bought were special orders through a dealership. Both times, the sales staff tried very hard to convince me (and my wife, the second time) that I/we would be perfectly happy with the cars they had in stock. Both times, I/we were able, after great difficulty, to convince them that there was a significant difference, to us at least, between "A new car built with the features we want that no one else has tested-to-destruction the shocks, springs, and transmission" and "An almost-new car abused by test driving that is almost what we want". For the same price. They WANT you to buy their demo, but they will settle for you buying a new car, if that gets you to buy from them. -SandyJax 20:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I would think that if you are worried about irrepairable damage to a vehicle arising from a few supervised test drives over the course of a couple hundred miles, then you're definitely looking to buy the wrong car; that model is obviously too fragile and damage-prone to last more than a couple of years of real world day-to-day driving before it falls to pieces. But that's probably what the dealership told you as well. Sonic Craze 21:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It depends on the nature of the car and dealership. When we went to buy my wife's Mazda Protege, there were about 100 almost identical cars sitting out on the lot - we picked one and she drove home in it. At the other extreme - when I bought my first MINI Cooper'S, there was a two month waiting list to get a production slot - the car took a week to manufacture, a week getting to the docks in England, two weeks on a ship across the Atlantic, another week or so in inspection in Charleston, a few days on a truck going to Texas and a couple of days going through final inspection at the dealership. So - anywhere between 4 minutes and 4 months? SteveBaker 03:53, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

city of Colusa, CA

Is there a listing avaiable on the web that would list names of the known residents of Colusa, CA?67.182.160.72 20:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Dwight Dowds

The phone book? 81.93.102.185 23:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't find exactly what you're looking for. It might be helpful to know what you'd like the information for, in case information in other forms might be adequate for your needs. For example, if you wanted the list in order to determine the population of Colusa, there are other ways of determining that. Or if you wanted to see if a number of people you knew who lived in Colusa still live there, there are other ways of determining that. MrRedact 02:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Church kitchens

I am a volunteer, searching for laws that might govern the remodel of a kitchen at church. I have looked through OSHA, State, and County web sites, but nothing jumps out. Where can I find a resource for this information so we will be able to pass an OSHA or Health Department inspection?

ChrisCLKel120 22:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The biggest thing when doing a remodel, is that all your fixtures usually have to have an NSF (NSF International) seal on them. In any case, it might be best to get an initial inspection from your local Health Department. They can give you a list of what they're looking for, and may even give you a punch-list of things you need to change. --Mdwyer 22:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

If you do most any sort of construction work (including remodeling), you're normally required to get a building permit. Normally these are given out by the local municipality (e.g. city clerk's office). The place where you get the building permit from should be able to point you toward the relevant regulations. At the very least, they should be able to tell you who you should be talking to instead. It might also pay to talk to the local business association/better business bureau/businessman's association (whatever serves as the local association for business owners). The laws for non-profits will be similar to those for commercial establishments. And if you're hiring a general contractor to do the work, they should be able to help out with permitting/regulations as well. -- 00:26, 9 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.104.112.105 (talk)

November 9

Surveys

I want to conduct a survey about "third places" the place you go other than your home or work, for a class project. Are there any existing surveys on third places?74.79.230.85 00:31, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This is the reference desk, a place for asking questions that have answers. It isn't really a place for polls. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 04:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

He or she is actually looking for existing surveys about The Third Place. Zagalejo^^^ 04:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh! Apologies; I misunderstood the question. And I don't have a good answer. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I imagine many third places have had surveys done on their use by the public. I dialled museum admission +survey into google, and there seems to be payload there. You can take it that most institutions that fund third places will be interested in the uses made of these third places. How much of that is accessible thru the web is for you to find, but since a significant proportion of third placesa re run by central or local government, there's a good possibility that careful searching will reveal results. Whether they will help your survey, I cannot say. Meanwhile I anticipate much less has been done, and much less will be accessible, on looking at third spaces from the other end of the telescope- surveys of people to find out which third places they use, for how long &c. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Sudanese foods

I am completing a class project and thought it might be nice to bring in some Sudanese foods. Does anyone know of some simple and tasty recipes.74.79.230.85 00:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This looks like a good place to start. It focusses on making Sudanese food without too many hard to find ingredients. Steewi 01:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

How many pages to stop a bullet

In response to the recent tragic Finnish school shooting, I became curious. How many pages of paper from a book (let's assume that the book has no cover for simplicity sake) does it take to stop a .22 Long Rifle bullet from point-blank range? Similarly, how many pages does it take to top a 9mm Parabellum? Thanks. Acceptable 01:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I've never shot any books (although the Mythbusters have, and found them not to be effective at stopping bullets). I can tell you that 9mm has 3 to 4 times the muzzle energy of .22LR, and that an FMJ would go through the book easier than a hollow-point. FiggyBee 02:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

1168 Marlith ^T/C 02:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I once shot a bundle of newspapers point blank with a .22 rifle, and as I recall it went in a good four inches or so. --Milkbreath 02:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I recall telephone directories being used for this purpose at some point. No idea how effective they were. Exxolon 02:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a proper source, but paper could be relatively effective here I would guess. Still a few inches of penetration is not unreasonable. It's going to depend heavily on how dense and heavy the paper is. And sometimes the lowly .22 penetrates better than larger more powerful rounds, helped by the small diameter. I've shot through 2x4 lumber with a .22 before and it came out the other side- that might be comparable to a book of similar size. I don't know what kind of wood it was tho; I imagine that could be a factor. Weather-treated 2x4s would stop the bullets though as I recall. Friday (talk) 02:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

A French soldier in the First World War was saved by his copy of Rudyard Kipling's Kim, which stopped a Boche bullet. DuncanHill 12:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Amazon lists a current paperback edition of Kim at 368 pages. Pretty good book. Does the source say whether it was hardcover or paperback, and how many pages the bullet went through? I can't help thinking that this question could best be answered by a user with a gun, a large backyard, and a nice thick book. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

From the Kipling Society website - "Many of you may have heard the story about how one of Kipling’s books stopped a bullet and saved a young man’s life. This story was related in the July 1952 Kipling Journal. Maurice Hamonneau was a young soldier in the French Foreign legion in World War I. He narrowly escapes death due to his French translation of Kipling’s Kim carried fortuitously in his left breast pocket. A grateful Hamonneau sends his battle-scarred copy of Kim along with his Croix de guerre military medal he subsequently received to Rudyard Kipling. Kipling, of course, is flabbergasted and deeply moved. He accepts these valuable tokens on the condition that they would be returned once Hamonneau had a son. The collection of fourteen letters documents the budding friendship from the initial contact in 1918 until 1932 when at Hamonneau’s request, Kipling returns the medal and the copy of Kim back to Maurice Hamonneau for Hamonneau’s son Jean."[8] 368 pages strikes me as rather large - my paperback OUP edition has 289 of the actual text. DuncanHill 12:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

With all of these stories of item XXX stopping a bullet - you have to ask at what range it happened. On a large WWI battlefield with bullets zipping around all over the place, it's quite possible that a bullet that would have gone through two inches of paper at a few hundred yards would be stopped by a quarter inch of paper at a few thousand yards. SteveBaker 12:59, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

What do we mean by 'point blank range?' If we're talking about putting the book so it touches the barrel of the gun and pulling the trigger... I can't help thinking that bullet's going through that book, unless it is, like, the twenty-volume edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 14:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Point blank range is supposed to be a technical term meaning that you are close enough that you just aim where you're wanting to hit, without correction. But, people use it in a less technical sense to mean "short range." Friday (talk) 19:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Why are we wasting all this paper, can't we experiment using stacks of AOL CD's or something else equally annoying? A line of Kerry Katona's. Actually that has been vandalised but I don't have time to revert it right now... Lanfear's Bane | t 16:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Psht... fixed. FiggyBee 17:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I haven't shot up any phone books, but the existence of Powder-actuated tools proves that a .22 load packs quite a whallop; it's no trouble at all to use the medium tool load to blast a hardened nail through a 2x4 in the thin direction and then continue on some distance intp poured concrete.

Atlant 17:26, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, nails are pointed, and have way higher sectional density than a .22 bullet. Friday (talk) 17:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd say a single page if it was one changing the law on gun ownership :P ---- WebHamster 18:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Despite maybe not being able to stop the penetration of the bullet, will a 600-1000 page textbook reduce the velocity of the bullet to a non-lethal velocity? Acceptable 00:30, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Prisionera

When will Prisionera return to Telemundo? Ericthebrainiac 02:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

AA Battery Hack from 6volt Lantern Battery??

I just opened an e-mail attachment that showed a 6 volt lantern battery (the bulky square one that fits in my flashlight) being prised open to reveal 32 standard AA Batteries - the message being that anyone who uses a lot of AA batteries can save themselves shed loads of dosh by following the simple instructions above. Am I being naive in wanting to believe that story? Or is it true? 81.145.240.17 17:31, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Snopes says no, and a quick internet search seems to corroborate this. Crabula 17:46, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Video for ya... [9] Dismas|^(talk) 21:31, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I have seen people selling the thing to do the reverse, a casing for you to put AA batteries in and use it as a 6V battery, but no where near as many as 32 AA's (it was something like 8). --antilived^{T | C | G} 22:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It certainly used not be true (the battery contained 4 "F" cells), but things change. It's definitely true for certain battery types, though. For example, if you use A76 cells, you can buy them individually at quite a high price or you can buy an A544 6V "photo" battery, take it apart, and find 4 ordinary, labeled A76 cells at about 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the individual cells.

Atlant 00:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

A 'battery' is technically, a collection of 'cells' (just like an artillery battery is a collection of guns - same word - same meaning). Most cells produce 1.2 to 1.5 volts. Non-rechargable 'dry' cells produce 1.5 volts - that's just a fact of electro-chemistry. So, in order to make a 6v battery, you absolutely have to use four cells wired in series. A 9v battery needs 6 cells for the exact same reason. That's why pulling the 6v battery apart produced those four F cells - and why you can replace a 6v battery with four AA's (although they'll go flat a lot sooner than the four 'F' cells would - so it's not necessarily such a smart idea). Same deal with camera batteries. The AA and AAA batteries you buy are not (strictly-speaking) 'batteries' - they are really just 'cells' - although I suppose at a pinch you could say they were batteries that only contain one cell. SteveBaker 04:27, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Latina and Polynesian Porn sites

Hi I'm just wondering if anyone here knows of any good free sites with latina and polynesian chicas? Lesbian would be best but if not hardcore porn. Thanks in advance LocoLatino 18:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Why do I get the sense that a new user with few or no other edits is about to pop in with an answer to this question? Sonic Craze 21:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I have the answer! For hot lesbian action, guaranteed to please, just click on this link and be delighted! (What? This kind of hot lesbian action turns me on... -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Im afraid to click on the link becuase im not on my computer =/Eskater11 22:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It isn't porn, and it doesn't make any noise. It's just an advertisement for my favorite comic book, Hothead Paisan:Homicidal Lesbian Terrorist. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Ive got an idea, GOOGLE "FREE LATINA PORN" you can be garunted at least 10,000 hits. Also _{www.porninspector.com} Eskater11 22:31, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if you Google the phrase "free latina porn" (with quotes), you get 295,000 hits. Without quotes, it's over 4 million. MrRedact 03:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

He said he wanted free latina porn, not free latina pedantry ;) Rockpocket 03:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Surgeon vs Anesthesiologist

Generally, how does the average and starting salary of a surgeon and anesthesiologist compare with each other in the United States? Thanks. Acceptable 21:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

That depends—are you talking about a general surgeon, or one with a particular specialty (a neurosurgeon, for example)? The salary surveys at PayScale.com seem to suggest that anesthesiologists in the United States tend to do somewhat better (financially) than general surgeons, but not as well as neurosurgeons. A lot depends on exactly where they're working and the nature of the work that they're doing. All of them look to be pretty well-paying jobs; I wouldn't want to choose between them on the basis of salary. Note as well that anesthesiologists pay higher malpractice premiums, which may offset their salary advantage to some extent. (Malpractice premiums in the United States vary wildly from state to state and even within a single state. This article noted that in 2003 a general surgeon would pay about $10,000 for malpractice insurance in the state of Minnesota; the same surgeon would pay a base rate of $174,000 in Dade County, Florida.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

November 10

Dog problems

I have had for some years a 25-lb beagle-chihuahua who is a little hyperactive and a little dog aggressive, but not egregiously so and generally well-behaved and a calm dog. My buddy just left for one to three months (deployment, we're US military), and left his two papillons, each about 8 lbs, one of each gender (all dogs concerned are neutered). His two dogs are about five years old, not housebroken, hyperactive, wet the floor at the slightest stress, and keep trying to pick a fight with the resident dog, who outweighs them both combined and is not at all reluctant to snap at them.

They have just been picking fights with each other for about three days. They are kept in separate crates -- our dog is comfy and happy in hers; the papillons are used to being crated and have no reluctance to fouling their crates and sleeping in their own excretions. The only good courses of action I have come up with at this point are either to murder the papillons or to place an emergency call to Cesar Millan. We're trying to be calm assertive, and I have been reading and researching, but if anyone has a good how-to resource for rehabilitating spastic, middle-aged, unhousebroken rat-sized dog, I promise to be your best friend. Faithfully, Deltopia 02:07, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

That's great, but will you lick between my toes? The article Housebreaking seems to be on target, but it's for puppies, as are the external links there. My suggestion is to try housebreaking them as if they were puppies. Clean everything with ammonia, and clean them. No, not with ammonia. Or sulphuric acid, either, as much as you might want to. Start with everything super clean so they won't smell it. They tend to go where they can smell it. Take them outside to the same spot every time so they see that spot as their toilet. Only crate them when you have to. When they mess up, take them to the door, make them scratch at it, then take them outside to their spot. They'll already have done their business inside, but you're trying to create an association in their demented, overheated, walnut-meat-sized brains. When you go back in, take the mess outside to their spot. Clean where they went inside with ammonia. Take them out first thing in the morning, the instant you uncrate them, a little while after they eat or drink, when they get excited or have been playing, and whenever they seem inappropriately pensive. Never punish them for mistakes, but show disapproval if you catch them in the act. Good luck. They'll probably never get to 100% at their age, but they might surprise you. --Milkbreath 03:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Dogs are very simple animals - you just need to get inside their heads.

It's very unusual for dogs to foul the area they sleep in - that's why "crating" works. These dogs are either sick - or are not being given the alternative to go outside often enough to poop when they need to. As for the reaction between your dog and the newcomers, the problem is one of pack heirarchy. They need to figure out who is the alpha dog, who beta, who gamma. Keeping them separately isn't letting them work that out - and as pack animals, that is very, very important to them. Pretty much you need to let them get on with it. It's unlikely they'll seriously hurt each other seriously and once pecking order is established, they'll all be much happier. If they are happy - so are you.

Crating does work on adult dogs as well as puppies - but it's not intended to be a long-term solution! The idea is that you crate the dog so that it'll resist pooping indoors because it doesn't want to foul the place where it sleeps. Hence, when you let it out of the crate (directly into the back yard, hopefully), it's forced to poop outside and soon knows that this is the appropriate place to go. Once it has learned the correct place to pooh - you can let it loose from the crate and it'll continue to go in the same place - outside - and not in your house. Keeping the dog crated without giving it that chance to establish the correct place to go means that when you DO let it out of the crate, it doesn't know that you hope is inappropriate - and all of the usual hilarity ensues.

So: Clean the crate carefully - you need to remove all sources of smell with strong bleach. Assuming the dogs are not sick - you need to put them outside soon after feeding and immediately after they've been sleeping in the crate. Then, you need to let all three dogs loose with each other - and let them get on with the brutal business of establishing heirarchy. These are wolf-descendents - that's what they do and you can't be timid about it - pretty soon (a few days - maybe a week), they'll have figured out who is top dog - and all will be tolerable from that point onwards. Having two male dogs (even if 'neutered') is always a problem - but none the less, they can sort it out without your help if you'll just let them. By intervening every time there is a ruckus - you are preventing them from figuring out what they need to know - this is a cause of stress for them - and may also be adding to your toilet training issues.

SteveBaker 04:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Winston Churchill anecdote

There is an anecdote on Winston Churchill I am trying to find but I cannot using Google. He was in Halifax, I believe, sitting next to a reverend or priest and a young woman offers the both of them a drink. The priest declines but Churchill makes some sort of witty remark I can't remember. What did he say? --Blue387 05:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

There are many quotes about drinking associated with Churchill that have been repeated and restaged to have happened in different places, you may be thinking of the following -

During the Prime Ministers' Conference in London in 1957, Lady Churchill invited Prime Minister John Diefenbaker and his wife to luncheon. When Churchill offered a brandy to Diefenbaker, it was declined with the comment: "I'm a teetotaller." Churchill did not seem to understand. Diefenbaker explained that he did not drink liquor. Sir Winston asked: "Are you a prohibitionist?" When Diefenbaker replied "no " his host commented, "Ah, I see, you hurt only yourself." (from [10]). 86.21.74.40 06:22, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't believe that was it. I do recall it was during wartime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blue387 (talk • contribs) 06:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

How about this?--86.145.248.160 14:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikiquote turns up some alcohol-related possibilities:

• I have taken more good from alcohol than alcohol has taken from me.
• I neither want it [brandy] nor need it, but I should think it pretty hazardous to interfere with the ineradicable habit of a lifetime.
• The water was not fit to drink. To make it palatable, we had to add whisky. By diligent effort, I learnt to like it.
• Perhaps one of the most quoted, Bessie Braddock says: Sir, you are drunk. Churchill replies And you, madam, are ugly. But in the morning, I shall be sober.

SteveBaker 03:54, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Troy University Alumni

Question: Please provide a list of notable alums that graduated from Troy University, Alabama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.168.23.100 (talk) 12:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

We have Category:Troy University alumni, but it only has one person in it at present. DuncanHill 12:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Paper seemingly only used for bibles

Bit of an odd question, but does anybody know if there is a reason why so many bibles appear to be in almost tracing-paper thin paper? Is it just to reduce costs to make them cheap for hotels/hospitals to have in the drawers or is there some significance? It seems to be pretty much only bibles that have this paper. It's much thinner than normally book paper. ny156uk 14:19, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks like (last paragraph) it's mostly to keep weight down and still preserve strength so it'll last awhile --ffroth 14:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

It's mostly to reduce the size of the final volume. Bible paper is not particularly cheap compared to other grades of papers used for printing books, but the finest grades will give you 1100 pages per inch of thickness [11]. In France, it is also used for printing collections of laws, which also often have 2000–2500 pages per volume. Physchim62 (talk) 16:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I've seen dictionaries (another book that tends toward extreme bulkiness) made out of the same thin paper, as well. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, my old Webster Second New International is an example. —Tamfang 00:17, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info everyone - evidently I only read small books, seems other people I asked also have seen this paper in more volumesome books. ny156uk 00:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Unidentified roman obelisk

My unidentified obelisk

I took this photograph in Rome two summers ago, but I can't remember exactly where. I perused the article "Obelisks in Rome", but nothing jumped out at me. Are any of you able to identify it? Plasticup ^T/C 17:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I think this is it. DuncanHill 17:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, you are right. The article on the Pantheon has a picture of the obelisk in Piazza Minerva, but apparently mine is also near the pantheon at "Piazza del Pantheon". Thank you much. Plasticup ^T/C 18:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I was lucky really - I saw the inscription to Pope Clement XI and fortunatley the article mentions the obelix! DuncanHill 18:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Vegetarian frozen food and shelf life

What commercial vegetarian frozen foods will last at least four months in the consumer's freezer? NeonMerlin 18:30, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Amy's Kitchen frozen foods are guaranteed (if kept frozen) for 2 years past the manufacture date.[12] MrRedact 19:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Type of jacket used on cover of Low by David Bowie

Does anyone know the type of jacket used on the cover of Low, or was it custom designed? Or were multiple jackets used? Killridemedly 19:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Military muesums?

What are some good muesums on the east coast that offer a collections of firearms of tanks besides Aberdean proving ground Ordance muesum? Also if possible could you list any that dont take more then like 3 4 hours to get to. Eskater11 19:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

It probably will take two or three hours to get there but the Royal armoury in leeds is quite good. I've been there. I don't know if there are any other war museums in britain apart from the imperial war museum--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) 21:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

lol im actualy from and live in baltimore :o Eskater11 23:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, what do you expect!? How did you expect us to know where in the world you live? You said "the east coast" but you didn't even indicate which continent you live on! I'm guessing Phoenix-wiki confused the Aberdeen proving grounds with Aberdeen in Scotland. SteveBaker 03:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Its entirly my own fault but i figured that since i mentioned the name of the muesuem people would know that its located there. Well no at least i know where to go if i ever go to britan Eskater11 03:42, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Loose turtleneck

Does anyone have a good way to SHRINK the collar of a LOOSE cotton or synthetic TURTLENECK shirt? —Preceding unsigned comment added by GHLewis (talk • contribs) 20:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, usually washing is a good way to shrink something, but it depends on exactly what part you want to shrink. If you just wanted to shrink the neck part, them I'm not sure how you would do that exactly. --θnce θn this island ^Speak! 22:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

From concentrate

"From concentrate" is often printed on fruit juice cartons, notably orange juice ones. What does it mean? thanks--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) 21:28, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

For purposes of storage and transportation fresh orange juice is dehydrated so that it takes up less room and weighs less. It is then frozen. When it arrives at the plant for bottling it's thawed and water is re-added. The dehydrated product is the "concentrate". ---- WebHamster 22:05, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Helpme

Ok give me your views on this and tell me what you think. For the past few weeks I have been having a series of disturbing dreams which appear to be somekind of alien related thing, or something else. I keep appearing in this stone black plaza with a glass roof coated with mysterious writing and pictures on it. In this plaza lies mysterious shaped objects and devices, and these blue like people with cold white eyes keep surrounding me and looking at me. They wear these silver top helmets and talk in a strange babel that its almost impossible to understand. In these experiences I've tried to talk back but I couldn't for some reason. Its not a pleasant experience and it keeps happening... 217.43.213.209 22:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I’m sorry; if you’re asking for medical advice we can’t help you here. Perhaps you could talk to a physician about this? If you are just looking for some information relating to similar dreams you may be interested to read the Wikipedia articles Sleep disorder, Nightmare, Nightmare disorder, and Recurring dream. Hope that helps. --S.dedalus 00:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

It's almost certain that dreams are simply what happens when we happen to wake up while our brains are using sleep to take the opportunity to sort out and organise our thoughts and memories. The resulting complete nonsense proves nothing, predicts nothing, means nothing. Don't have a second thought about it. Dreams are junk thoughts that you happened to woke up before you had time to forget them. (Also: There is NOTHING more boring in this world than listening to people tell you about their dreams!) You can't avoid having these dreams - but if you don't wake up until after they are over, you won't remember them. So the 'fix' for your problem is to have a better night's sleep so that REM sleep (during which you dream) is finished before your alarm clock drags you out of one. Go to bed earlier! SteveBaker 03:30, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyone good at putting names to Hollywood faces?

I'm aware that this'd probably be more at home over in the Entertainment section, but quite frankly, that desk doesnt seem to be quite so well-manned. Anyway: browsing through Flickr, I came across this excellent series of images of the 2007 Scream Awards uploaded by "pinguino". Unfortunately, most are missing tags identifying the subjects, and I'm pretty awful at putting names to familiar faces (embarrassingly few from this series) Anyone with a few minutes fancy going through and identifying all or some of the pics? I've uploaded those that Pinguino positively identified, but virtually all of the others are awaiting a more experienced eye. If you don't really want to go through the rigmarole of uploading the images at Commons, just post the identifications here and I'll do the dogsbody work myself :) GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 23:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Of those not named, so far I have Tobin Bell, Alice Cooper, and Lou Ferrigno (though I can't put a name to the gal standing next to him). GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 00:05, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

That's Slash in 8671 and Danny Trejo in 8637 and 8644. --Joelmills 00:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

And I've just been scolded for not recognising Jamie Bamber in 8657, Morena Baccarin in 8667 and Zachary Quinto in 8814. Apparently I should be watching more Sci-Fi. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 00:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Danny Trejo = IMG_8644, Tobin Bell = IMG_8705, Bruce Campbell = IMG_8705,IMG_9238 ---- WebHamster 00:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

And I think IMG_9385 is Robert Rodriguez, Alice Cooper = IMG_8812 ---- WebHamster 00:23, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Quentin Tarantino = IMG_8976 (and IMG_9074). Jessica Alba = IMG_8993 (and IMG_9016). Kristen Bell = IMG_8929. Tricia Helfer & Jamie Bamber = IMG_9110 (it took me sooo long to recognize them, for some reason). (Helfer is also IMG_9131, IMG_9153, IMG_9159, IMG_8949). Criss Angel = IMG_8801. --24.147.86.187 00:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Usable photographs still in need of identification:

• 8582
• 8590 Cary Elwes?? I think this is Casper Van Dien. Rockpocket 04:27, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• 8598
• 8607 Mick Garris (director) 75.82.58.52 04:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• 8645
• 8665
• 8689
• 8710 Amy Lee (singer from Evanescence)75.82.58.52 04:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• 8743 Joanie Laurer (sp? - Chyna from WWF) 75.82.58.52 04:36, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• 8806
• 8825 Darren Lynn Bouseman (sp? - Director of Saw movies and Repo! The Genetic Opera) 75.82.58.52 04:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• 8841 (though not the most flattering shot) - Zoë Bell, I think, though we have a better photo of her already. Rockpocket 04:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• 8847 Also Zoe Bell 75.82.58.52 04:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• 8859
• 8866
• 8874
• 8895
• 8921 - is Dania Ramírez (according to my wife) Rockpocket 04:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• 8932
• 8938
• 9054 Monica Staggs and Sydney Tamia Poitier (sp? on the 2nd one - Death Proof) 75.82.58.52 04:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• 9097
• 9205
• 9562
• the "some other dude" Bill Moseley (Devil's Rejects) 75.82.58.52 04:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
• 9582 et al

GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 01:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I think some of the guys are tech staff getting awards. I recognise some of the faces from behind the scenes features but I'm buggered if I can recall their names :( ---- WebHamster 01:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Quentin Tarantino was the only one I could recognise - do I get a prize? DuncanHill 01:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

IMG_8582 is Daeg Faerch. IMG_8665 is a guy who goes by the name Zacky Vengeance, I think. Some band member. IMG_9097 is a guy named Jesse G. James. In case you can't tell, I'm just enjoying this for the fun of figuring it out—I like the challenge! --24.147.86.187 02:54, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

OH! And IMG_9562 and IMG_9572 are Lena Headey, the woman from the film 300. I knew I recognized her from somewhere. --24.147.86.187 03:12, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, your work is much appreciated, 24.147. I've added images to a fair number of articles from this batch so far. Always nice to see some decent-quality free images for celebrity articles :) GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 04:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

November 11

My School

Gahh I cant convince any of my teachers at school that Wikipedia is a vaild site to gather info on they said,"Retards and Dumbutts change things on that webstite too screw suckers like you up"(Are english techer said that seriously) then i asked if we were allowed to use any site with the words Wiki infront of the site name and i got ISS, FOR 3 WEEKS. What do i do to convice them its a vaild site when they ignore me?4.240.54.208 Hate school —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.240.54.208 (talk) 00:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Well it isnt a valid site to use. Wikipedia is a faluire becuase of its core polocy:That anymone can edit it. Try citizumdum or something like that. Its an off shoot of wikipedia but im prett sure all the pages are fact checked by experts. Eskater11 02:14, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Try this. Two important things to remember are that all of the old versions at a page still exist in the history, So Vandals never actuary destroy information, and that all encyclopedias are only intended for reference. Even The big name printed ones contain errors.--APL 02:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Try use the references in the article as your sources, not Wikipedia. Generally tertiary sources such as encyclopaedia are not suitable sources in general, and it's better to track down better sources using Wikipedia than outright listing Wikipedia as a source. --antilived^{T | C | G} 03:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia can be used educationally - but with care. I don't think the complaint that vandalism makes it useless is a reasonable one. There are errors in all encyclopedias and the number of errors in Wikipedia (despite vandalism) is about the same as 'big name' paper encyclopedias like Encyclopedia Britannica - and much better than other online encyclopedias like Encarta. Vandalism is easy to spot in almost every case. If the article on George Washinton says "George Washington was SO gay - just like Nigel." ...then you can be pretty sure it's vandalism. You can use the 'history' mechanism to look back at a version of the article from a day or two earlier - it's exceptionally unusual for vandalism to remain in an article for more than a day or two - so if you can see that a fact was added in the last few hours - then you should probably ignore it. So in that regard, there should be no more problems with Wikipedia than with Britannica. However, the problem with both Wikipedia and Britannica is that we are both 'secondary sources' - we report only what other books say - we don't add any new knowledge. The correct way to use any encyclopedia is to read around a subject, get a good overall view of it - then use the references in the articles to look up the relevent primary sources - which you ought to be able to find in a decent library. These primary sources are what you should be using in reports and essays at school. In my opinion, teachers should realise that Wikipedia is a MAJOR part of our modern world of knowledge. It is rapidly becoming the one source of all human knowledge - give it 10 years and I think it'll be recognised as being the biggest improvement in human knowledge collection since the invention of the library. Teachers need to teach kids how to use Wikipedia - not simply tell them to ignore it.

For example: I have consulted Wikipedia three times this evening. The first time, my kid said that he wanted to see the new movie "Sweeny Todd" - I explained that I knew the plot, that it was a very old story - but I wasn't sure if it was rooted in fact. 20 seconds later - we knew the answer (it dates back to the 1800's and it's almost certainly pure fiction). Then, I was listening to a CD-book about Einstein on the way home yesterday and I wanted to check something about Bose-Einstein condensates...again, Wikipedia had the answer. Then, thirdly, I needed to check my own article on the Mini in order to answer a question from a friend in my local car club about the Australian Mini Coopers. These are all things that I could never have figured out before - even with a $1500 copy of Britannica - there is simply no way.

But I most certainly wouldn't use Wikipedia's coverage for writing a scientific paper or a class paper. For that, I'd consult Wikipedia to find out what references were provided and head off to the library to track them down so I could read the original material. Actually, with Google Books, it's becoming possible to find a lot of that stuff without a trip to the library - but using Wikipedia to find a useful book is a HUGE help.

So teachers need to teach valid research techniques using Wikipedia (and the entire Internet for that matter) - putting their heads in the sand and hoping it'll just go away is very, very short-sighted.

SteveBaker 03:23, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

That was the best answer i have ever seen steve. Im almost about to give you a barnstar for it. Eskater11 03:50, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

online games not intended as games

Many sites have online games [13]. In contrast, some sites are used as "games" although not intended as such, is this not so? I'm wondering if there is a list of "online games" somewhere that enumerates this latter kind of "online game".

For example, imagine if there were a game called plant that phrase where players take turns generating arbitrary word sequences, (such as, "ye shall be my concubine", or "thereupon envisaged") and then go off and try to find a Wikipedia article where that phrase fits. Players get points for phrase length, number of days remaining in the article, and other things.

Obviously, such a "game" is contrary to the purpose of a site like Wikipedia, but I bet there has to be someone out there who knows of the existence of many such "games". Anyone know if my hunch is correct? dr.ef.tymac 00:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Sam~ from the first sentence im guessing such game woud be a advergame —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.240.54.208 (talk) 01:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Google can be used for entertainment.Google Wack is my favorite, but see also [these].--APL 02:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Epsom salt in Meth

Dear Wikipedia contributors,

Which method(s) of producing methamphetamines, such as Birch Reduction methods and Red-P method, requires the use of Epsom salt?

71.18.216.110 04:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)