Wikipedia:Media copyright questions

Media copyright questions
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TV station galleries

I'm not going anywhere near this, but if someone else here would be able to take a look and add to the discussion, that would be great. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 21:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The way I see it, Mike Godwin has said that use of these images is legal, it's up to us to decide whether we think they're significant.

J.Milburn swears blind that he can't see why historical logos should be of any interest to anybody. On the other hand, the on-screen ident of a station is probably the most visible (and memorable) pieces of that entity's self-presentation, so people who are interested in the history of television are interested in how that has evolved and changed and developed, and see documenting that evolution and change as inherently encyclopedic: part of an area's shared historical mass culture. You can measure this interest even in the conventional print media: google "bbc ident" on google news for example, and back come 760 hits since 1993. I can also see a lot of value in tracing how some corporate's logos have evolved -- for instance at Quantas today J.Milburn also ripped out a section documenting how the logo had evolved in fifty years. (Compare with this old edit, showing how the winged kangaroo progressively evolved and became more stylised). Now I see that, and I think a significant piece of understanding about the flag carrier has been lost by his intervention.

It seemed the dust had settled on the issue a year ago after Mike's announcement, but if J.Milburn really does question that these images have an encyclopedic significance, then perhaps the only way forward is to have a big enough RfC to settle it. Part of the problem here (IMO) is he seems to be acting as self-appointed judge, jury and executioner, the onlie true assessor of significance or not, when this is something that really is for the community to decide. These questions should be being worked out through a community mechanism, not by single admins acting like Judge Dredd, trying to drive their will through on an article page with blood-curdling threats of blocking. J. Milburn's talk page is not where this discussion should be happening.

The appropriate venue would appear to be WP:NFCR, probably a separate sub-page; with broad publicity to try to get a wide circle of input. Pending the conclusion of any such discussion, stripping out of images should probably be frozen, so those who object to them can point to what they object to; and those who think they have value can point to what they value. That is my view as to how things should best be taken forward: an appropriate community mechanism to try to resolve this. Jheald (talk) 01:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Mike's announcement ended it, nor should it have ended. Mike is expressing the legal position (there are no legal issues), but that's not where NFC stops; Mike is not responsible at all for this policy. NFC is about maintaining the free content mission, and thus we need to meet the Foundation's resolution in maintaining a minimum amount of non-free content that is necessary to convey information to our readers.

So we're at the question: does the addition of a series of historical logos provide significant information to our readers to be considered part of minimal use or if there's a means to replace those with free content. No one is arguing against the current logo, but any previous logo is in question.

For television stations, based on the rough sampling, tracing the historical logos reflect usually two things: the era and art the logo was in (logos from the 70s, for example, will be bright, bold colors , while more recent logos will be more simple geometric), and the addition and change of station affiliation or channel number. Both of these can be explained in the text, the logos adding nothing to this discussion. That's not meaning we discount all historical logos : an anniversary logo, or one that was created by a noted designer, assumption this was appropriate information discussed in the article, would be fine to justify it. But just slapping up the logos in a gallery or otherwise with any additional comment (beyond the period of us) does nothing but add non-significant non-free content.

Also, consider the slippery slope here: if we allow unfettered use of historical logos, why not use a gallery of all the roles an actor (living or dead) participated in, or all the character design changes for animated/drawn characters, or...?

Let's put it this way: just adding a historical logo gallery is indiscriminate because there's no rationale why each image is included, save for those insisting being completionists to show a station's history. We should only discriminately include such images when there is clear need to enhance the article for all readers with them. --MASEM (t) 04:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Can I suggest WP:NFCR would be the better venue for this conversation? Or should we go on and just do the show right here? Jheald (talk) 04:58, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

NFCR seems to be about specific images, not suited towards a general discussion. Here may be too inappropriate since copyright's not a (core) issue (we probably all agree that the images are copyright but there's no present copyright threats looming over their over-use.) NFC may be best. --MASEM (t) 05:07, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think here is a better place for it since it has already started here. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

It's already started on my talk page, too... A little advice to everyone here. This conversation will no doubt attract a lot of idiocy. I advise you remove any comments that include the word "Godwin", as they will no doubt be bullshit, and I also advise you remove any comments that are along the lines of "these logos are important because they show the logo". Be ready for a lot of petitio principii, refusal to understand the point of NFCC#8, misrepresentation of the views of those wishing to remove these galleries and so on. It's fairly clear that these galleries should be removed; this may well be yet another case of "I like the NFCC, but it doesn't really apply to my project for some reason". (Oh, I'm sorry, is my cynicism showing? The length of the debate on my talk page doesn't even include the discussions on Hammersoft and Neutralhomer's talk page, and growing discussions elsewhere. This has been going on for ages with people refusing to get the point, and refusing to answer simple questions.) J Milburn (talk) 11:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't your own comment here be removed by following your advice? Is this a corollary to the existing Godwin's Law, or a new one entirely? Powers ^T 14:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

This has also been discussed, at length, at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 42#How, when, and why for historical logo regarding historical company logos and, to a degree, station logos. Consensus there was no, a project can not decide policy, and no, logo galleries do not meet Wikipedia's fair-use requirements. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 13:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Can projects decide fair use guidelines for articles within their scope?

Members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Television Stations have been citing a discussion within their project regarding the use of logos in galleries as having generated consensus that the use of logo galleries is acceptable. For the sake of discussion, let's presume that consensus to include them exists on this project from that discussion. See an example citation. After seeing a quote from consensus policy at Wikipedia:Consensus_can_change#Exceptions "WikiProject[s] cannot decide that for the articles within its scope, some policy does not apply, unless they can convince the broader community that doing so is right", one of the project members said "This WikiProject oversees all the pages in question, so yes we can see our own consensus" [1].

Does a project have a right to decide what is and is not acceptable use of fair use images on articles within its scope or does it need to seek wider consensus for the type of usage it wants to use?

In RFC style (this is not a poll)...

A project should establish best practice guidelines to help editors interpret policies in the context of their particular sort of articles. These guidelines are in no way "finally decisive", but they should be given significant consideration, particularly if they have stood the test of time

• This is my view, because in practice it is what happens. Projects develop guidelines to relate all sorts of policies to the particular challenges of the articles they work on -- for example, WP:RS: what are the sources considered reliable? WP:MOS: how is this best adapted to their challenges. Etc, etc. WP:NFC is really no different. The aim is to fulfill the policy. The question is, in terms of their articles, what does this mean for best practice?

Does this override policy? Does this override consensus finding at FfD, or in wider RfCs? No, of course it doesn't. But particularly in the case of WP:NFC one of the key questions is NFCC#8, the wiki-community assessment of what constitutes a "significant" increase in the understanding a reader gains from an article by the inclusion of some material, as balanced against the degree of the copyright taking it represents. This is a value judgment to be made by the community as a whole, but one where the input of those who know the subject best may be particularly relevant.

A wikiproject should try to have a good discussion and come up with such an assessment. WP:COMICS is an example where this was done a long time ago, and the results have worked very well. The assessment may need to be revised, to take account of the views of those outside the project; or in the light of outcomes at FfD or wider RfCs. But, to the extent it represents a serious discussion, it should not be dismissed out of hand. Jheald (talk) 14:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Project should help establish best practices, help put them into place, but always within the context of existing policies and guidelines. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 22:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

A project must seek wider consensus for types of fair use usage

• --Hammersoft (talk) 13:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
• This - a project can not dictate Wikipedia policy, nor override or change it to suit their own purposes. Projects exist to apply policy and guidelines to articles, not ignore them. They are a group of editors, not a cabal and not an authority with regards to how policy is interpreted. Projects can create manuals of styles for articles within their topics, but those must still conform to Wikipedia guidelines and existing policies. They must follow fair use policies...its that simple. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 13:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
• We've been here before (anyone remember "All American Idol finalists are notable"?), and no doubt we will be here again. If a project decides that it is OK to violate Wikipedia policy in its own guidelines, then that guideline is invalid and should be ignored. Black Kite 14:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
• Of course. In the same way as WikiProjects may not establish lower notability bars for articles in their purview, they cannot do similarly for copyright concerns. Stifle (talk) 17:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
• Local consensus never overrules sitewide consensus when it comes to concerns about laws and Wikipedia policies. There's no reason a TV project has any superior knowledge to the people who routinely deal with Fair Use concerns -- quite the contrary, in fact. DreamGuy (talk) 17:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

General discussion

There are a number of problems with the scenario where projects can decide types of usage. First, we end up with a hodge podge of policy application that can leave editors bewildered as to what rules apply to a given article. Whenever an editor switches from one article to another on an unrelated subject, they'd have to research to find out what the standards are before editing. Second, articles that fall within multiple project scopes could have conflicting standards on what is acceptable. Third, who watches the watchers? There's no real oversight on the projects to decide more globally what acceptable applications of policy are. Allowing projects to decide what types of fair use usage is permitted creates an untenable situation. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Logos that are not in galleries

When the logos are not in galleries J Milburn still removes them saying that he is removing them per WP:NFCC#8 but WP:NFCC#8 says "Significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." and the logos do increase readers' understanding of the topic as they show the changes in the TV stations call sign, branding and network affiliation throughout the TV stations history and the logos are part of the TV stations history. Powergate92Talk 22:07, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with J Milburn. If the logos are not being discussed critically and with some depth in reliable, third-party sources, then adding the old logos is still nothing but decoration. One does not need to see the old logo to understand the station's history nor are the visual call signs (often just stylized letters anyway) necessary to significantly increase a readers' understanding of what the station is. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 22:36, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

As i said at User talk:J Milburn#Random break 1, WP:NFCC#8 doe's not say you need reliable sources discussing the logos and it doe's not say the logos need to be discussed in the article text. And the logos do increase a readers' understanding of the TV stations history as they show the TV stations history in image. Powergate92Talk 22:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

So hypothetically, what would be a case where there is discussion of the significance of a logo (as to meet #8) that is without sources and does not violate any other policy (particularly WP:V and WP:NOR?) --MASEM (t)

That sounds like a category confusion. WP:NOR applies to text on article pages. WP:RS and WP:NOR do not apply to discussions about article pages, policy page discussions, talk page discussions, AfD page discussions etc. Hard evidence is useful of course; but the nature of these discussions is community input, to come to community consensus. It is in those discussions that whether or not the image contributes with the required significance is assessed. Jheald (talk) 14:39, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I am talking about the text on the article page that supports the need for the image to be theres. Rationales are another thing altogether but lets assume that that this aspect can be justified if the text-in-article part is. You can't just throw a non-free image up on an article without discussion of that image, and so that's my question, in the case of logos, what article text would be able to justify the use of a old station logo without sources and without incurring NOR or other policy problems?

Now, I did just happen to come across a perfect example of when an old station logo would be acceptible. Nick just changed their logo from the "splat" to a simple text line, and for good reason as cited: the splat when used on business cards looked like a mess. Thus, it's appropriate to use the splat logo on the Nick page in the discussion of the station history for at least this point, if not the iconic nature of the splat logo that I'm sure can be sourced. But the point here is that the reason to use the logo is to help readers understand an appropriate string of content for WP (something that is non-continuous or is sourced if it possibly is). That needs to be there for each and every non-free image, logo or not. That does not happen, as I've seen, with most local TV station logos, but I'm open to see if this can be done. --MASEM (t) 03:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Most articles on Wikipedia do not have sources for the text in the articles about the images, the TV station logos are just like any other image on Wikipedia so why should the TV station articles have sources for the text in the articles about the logos? Powergate92Talk 05:38, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

No, but that's not the point I'm making; this specific problem is related to historical logos. There needs to be text in the article to describe the significance (per NFCC#8) to include the historical logo (as with all images), but for logos, I cannot see any way (but I'd be happy to be proven wrong) where the inclusion of the logo is accompanied by text that is used to justify its significance that isn't sourced nor avoids original research (specifically why the logo's important). Again, the point is that non-free images must aid in contributing to helping the general reader understand the topic better. The current logo, sure, but save for limited exceptions, no historical logo will help do that; where there are exceptions, that factor needs to be clear why in the text. --MASEM (t) 06:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the question of significance per WP:NFCC#8 is one for talk pages, policy discussions, fair-use rationales, IfD debates. What is needed in the article is some text accompanying the logos, describing their changes (verifiable from the logos themselves). But the question of the significance of that logo progression is one that can be discussed off the page.

As you will be aware, WP:NOR applies only to article text. WP:RSs are of course valuable in meta-discussions; but they are not mandated. It is enough that the community feels that showing the logo evolution significantly adds to the understanding conveyed by the article. Jheald (talk) 09:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

In fact WP:NOR applies to all article content. Considerably more latitude in that respect is granted to image creators, solely because of the relative paucity of free images. The purpose of an image is to convey information that would be difficult to do in words, and the purpose of a caption is to expand or clarify the point being made in the image. It is surely clear that if we find ourselves writing article text merely to justify the inclusion of an image, then that image is not meeting its purpose. From that you can see that WP:V applies just as much to captions as it does to any other piece of article text. Nobody should be adding any text to an article that is not derived from a WP:RS, otherwise any editor is free to remove it. Just because "most articles on Wikipedia do not have sources for the text in the articles about the images", does not free them from the requirement for the source to be cited, if challenged. --RexxS (talk) 12:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. The caption is part of the article text, and so WP:RS and WP:NOR fully apply.

On the other hand, my point above is that the discussion of significance may well be off-page, not part of either the caption or the body text of the article. The degree of significance is something for the community to decide. Jheald (talk) 08:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

If the significance of the image exists but is off the page it is used on (likely being in the rationale), then there's no significance implied to the reader, and NFCC#8 fails. Something needs to be said that ties that image to the text to make it a required element of the article, otherwise it is just fluff. How strong that statement is, that's a consensus determination of meeting #8, but it needs to be there in the article body. (Even the significance in the caption is not enough, because we're tying the image to the article text.) --MASEM (t) 13:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

With respect, I disagree (and so does the policy). In some cases understanding of the topic is improved, simply by seeing what the image is. This is clearly accepted for record covers and for current logos; the same case can often equally be made for historic logos. Jheald (talk) 13:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

It's true that we have the "nonfree for identification" for infoboxes, but this is the case where, if the topic can support an article through notability and other guidelines, we are discussing the topic of the image, and thus the image is acceptable. But that's at most one image per topic; it does not break down for multiple identifying images for the same topic. That said, in fairness, using the same logic to allow a small number of historical logos to be used to describe the station's history. Take the example of a station that started off unaffiliated, then went to national affiliate XYZ and then to PQR. It's expected that if the change of affiliation affected the logo, it may be useful to include on in that section about the station's history to help identify to some extent that change. So in the above, I'd expect no more than three logos used on the page that would otherwise require no stronger need for that text beyond a legitimate section on the station's history: one for the current logo under PQR, the initial logo when unaffiliated, and a logo while under XYZ. Using all the historic logos, however, without further justification is right out because once you've identified a period of the station's history by one logo, no other logo will be adding to this. This of course doesn't prevent the use of other logos that may actually have significance, such as one specially designed for an anniversary, or on that may have been controversial. --MASEM (t) 14:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• <-- So since logos add understanding, it's ok to have galleries like WDIV-TV#Station_logos and WFAA#Logos. Right. Ok, since these presentations average about 4 images per gallery, and there's ~2400 stations, we'll have about 10,000 fair use images from TV stations alone. That's about 3% of the projects total of non-free imagery <cough><choke><hack>. But hey, why stop there? Let's include every logo the station has ever used on the off chance that a reader of the article has seen the logo and identifies it with the station. That would improve understanding too. Let's say that's about 20 logos per station (probably extremely conservative guess). Gosh, that's only 50,000 images. Bombs away! Improve understanding! Splatter Wikipedia with fair use images everywhere in the name of improving understanding! Uhg. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

NFCC #8 and #3 are critically important

Let's face it; most of WP:NFCC is bureaucratic paperwork. Items 2,4,5,6,7,9, and 10 are all perfunctorily addressed and it is rare that there are any serious objections to the presence of an image on the project for failing these items (with the exception of 10, but that too is just paperwork...if it's there, people don't object).

Items 1, 3 and 8 are the critical components of the fair use policy. Without them, we would allow all non-free images so long as they are usable under fair use law, which for this encyclopedia is a very broad paintbrush.

With logos, album covers, book covers, and similar #1 is also perfunctory. You can't replace a logo with a free equivalent because then it's not the logo and doesn't belong on the article.

This leaves only items #3 and #8 as standing in the way of allowing as much non-free content as the maximum inclusionist would like to see. Not coincidentally, these items are the most hotly debated items in this and many other debates on this project about inclusion of fair use content.

Inclusionists prefer to claim that logos, covers, etc. add value by their mere presence on the article. A person going to a discography, for example, who is looking for a particular album they remember but only remember the artist would have a fast reference to see covers and go "Oh! That's the one, the one with the funky artwork!" It's useful. It just helped the reader remember which album it was they were looking for.

Non-inclusionists take the view that we're not a guide, we're an encyclopedia. There is a difference. If you want a guide, go look at allmusic.com and pump in your favorite artist to see their album covers. Further, we're a free content encyclopedia, and including fair use images every time it has a chance of being useful to someone infringes on our m:mission.

The bottom line; if items #3 and #8 are not defended we will be a guide (as opposed to an encyclopedia), and not be a free (as in libre) resource.

Claiming that adding TV station logos are useful for identification purposes and therefore adding every logo the station uses invalidates #3 and #8. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The TV station logos that show the changes in the TV stations call sign, branding and network affiliation throughout the TV stations history are significance and do meet #8 as if look at rationale on e. g. the Nicktoons TV logo you will see that it says "The image is used to identify the brand Nicktoons TV, a subject of public interest. The significance of the logo is to help the reader identify the brand, assure the readers that they have reached the right article containing critical commentary about the brand, and illustrate the nature of the brand in a way that words alone could not convey." and the logos also meet #3 as e. g. in the Nicktoons Network article 1 logo doe's not have "significant information" for the network name change from Nicktoons TV to Nicktoons and from Nicktoons to Nicktoons Network so you need the Nicktoons TV and the Nicktoons logos. Powergate92Talk 23:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Time to move ahead?

Acknowledging that some disagree with this, but that the community large majority agree with this...

Is there any majority opposition to beginning work on removing the galleries listed at User:Hammersoft/list#Using_logo_section_galleries? --Hammersoft (talk) 14:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmm I didn't see any consensus in the preceding discussion. As far as #3, minimal usage, I see that more as directed towards using multiple samples of a single work. For instance, it would be very difficult to justify the fair use of multiple clips from a single song or movie. The historic logos on the other hand are separate creative works.

As far as #8, significance in increasing reader's understanding of the topic, the logos often reflect changes in ownership and network affiliation, and as the articles mature the gallery can be broken up alonside a history section. And yes, a logo that was used for a long time in the 1970s and 1980s may be more recognizable than a bland logo that's only been in use for a couple years.

As far as a "guide" vs. encyclopedia, that's an age-old debate that isnt going to be settled here. The word "encyclopedia" means it encompasses all. Open up a paper encyclopedia and you'll find photo galleries of birds, coins, bottles of wine, flags, and so forth.

And as far as the free-as-in-beer debate, these images are not shareware we've been given a limited right to by the copyright holders. WP still allows fair-use content, and while there is a higher bar for commercial use of fair-use content, say if a company sold DVD-ROMs of WP commerically, I believe historic logos still fall within that bar. And quite frankly if they didn't, they would have been eliminated at the same time the publicity photos of actors were deprecated. It shouldn't be hard to find a for-profit print article that contains historic logos of Coca-Cola. Squidfryerchef (talk) 18:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

• Whether it's legal or not is just the beginning of it being accepted here. As for guide vs. encyclopedia, that debate has been settled for years. We're an encyclopedia, not a guide. The points you raise in opposition to our WP:NFCC policy have been raised before, and the majority of people here disagree with you. I'm going to move ahead with the removals, as others have been doing them as well. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:34, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Whether it's legal means that the free-as-in-beer argument is out, and it simply becomes a case of a copyright argument being used to advance a deletionist position. We are an encyclopedia, and we're an encyclopedia with a healthy, case-by-case debate as to what to cover in the encyclopedia. And as I see it there were only two editors arguing that historic logo galleries serve no purpose here. Squidfryerchef (talk) 18:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not advancing a deletionist position. Sorry you feel that way, but it's inaccurate. Your statement that we are an encyclopedia is only partially accurate. We are a free encyclopedia. That's why we have m:Mission, which states "develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally". That's why we have Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy which states that non-free material use "must be minimal". That's why we have WP:NFCC, which has restrictions for minimal use and significance. We have never supported fair use images in galleries and likely never will because of the existence of these documents. If you want to have these galleries supported, I strongly suggest you start an RfC to change the wording of the policy to liberally permit logo usage. As is, between W and K call letter stations, we have approximately 2100 uses of these logos. That can not be construed as minimal, by any means. In the meantime, and once again in compliance with policy at WP:NFCC last bullet point, the case hasn't been made for inclusion and the logo galleries will (and are being) deprecated. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I for one haven't seen anywhere where a "community large majority" agreed to these actions nor do I see what part of the NFCC guideline or policy allows for any editor to delete on site non-free images simply because they sit together. Significance can be disputed and level of discussion but that is not one person's call or a small group of editors to make particularly if there is clear disagreement from another group of editors also wishing to improve the encyclopedia. I certainly understand the need to promote "free" image use in the project and one way to do this obviously is limiting "non-free" use. I don't disagree with that particular POV but I do disagree with the degree of strictness you feel is necessary here. Can the logo sections be improved? I think in many cases this is a clear possibility but this would be impossible to do without the images themselves. As a general rule we don't require that content be inserted in a manner that would immediately be considered featured article or good article material. I'm also a little incredulous when comments are made that attempt to minimize the influence that fair use plays in this debate, particularly on a discussion called Media copyright questions and a policy and guideline and Wikimedia licensing policy that by in large born out of copyright and fair use law. Tmore3 (talk) 02:43, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:NFC#Non-free_image_use_in_galleries is rather clear. Also, see WP:NFCC, last bullet point. The case hasn't been made. Consensus hasn't been reached that this type of use of fair use is acceptable. Therefore, since the burden hasn't been met, per policy it needs to be deprecated. The Wikimedia licensing policy isn't born from U.S. fair use law. It is related to it, but not descendant from it. It is descended from our m:Mission. Please see Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy. There is reference to law in one of the definitions, but the actual resolution text does not reference copyright or fair use laws. This discussion was advertised at WT:NFC, the Television wikiproject, and received some coverage at WP:AN/I. The result of all this is that a simple majority of the contributors to this thread agreed that the galleries needed to go. In a related thread, the consensus was for removal as well.
• If we suspended every guideline and policy whenever someone disagrees with it, we'd have gridlock on the project. Nothing would be enforceable. I understand and recognize that there are those who disagree with this policy and guideline. Disagreement is good. It fosters discussion and progress. It becomes bad when, after discussion, we see no consensus to suspend a guideline and therefore do not apply the guideline. The guidelines are not trivial. They exist for a reason.
• In this particular case, my User:Hammersoft/list has shown a huge number of non-free image uses in galleries. 111213 logos in a galleries, with all incidences of this use averaging about 4 logos per article. If this use were permissible, we'd be looking at approximately 10,000 logo uses just for American television stations alone. 10,000. Consider that number when reading the Foundation's stance on non-free content use at the above noted resolution; "Such (use) must be minimal". As WP:NOT (another policy) says, we are not "a complete exposition of all possible details". We do not have to include every single logo the company has ever used in order to have a complete encyclopedia article.
• Combined with the other thread, we've discussed this for more than a month now, with never any sign of consensus that this usage is acceptable. I'm sorry that consensus did not exist in favor of your view. You are certainly welcome to attempt to generate a consensus, as consensus can change. But for now, the galleries must go. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Frankly I don't see any genuine consensus demonstrated here or in any of the other discussions other than the same handful of editors who take a particular point of view in how the NFCC should be interpreted and the same can be said for the other side. The Exemption Doctrine, the NFCC and yes, even the free content portion of the Wikimedia's, have everything to do with copyright law. To declare otherwise is like claiming the creation of stop signs really had little to do with preventing accidents. I can appreciate the need to limit "non-free" image use however I grow skeptical when someone tries to say Mike Godwin's input on the placement of historic logos together doesn't factor into the debate and these image deletions have nothing to do with copyright. Of course his words do not and should not circumvent or "suspend" any policy or guideline however as with any guideline or policy the expectation is that they are approached with good faith and common sense. The attempted framing of this discussion or the attempt to declare consensus when one clearly does not exist doesn't really strike me as a practice of good faith nor an application of common sense at this point. Tmore3 (talk) 03:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

• The driving motivation behind our non-free content policy isn't the law. It is the fact that we are a free encyclopedia. That is our goal. Our mission and our vision is not to produce a legal encyclopedia, wherein any content we use is legal within the confines of this project. If you believe that is the case, you are grossly mistaken. Mr. Godwin can comment on the legal status of an image. He is a trained, licensed lawyer and has worked extensively in related fields. I do not doubt Mr. Godwin's abilities in this regard. However, his comments are mostly irrelevant. If you think they are tightly relevant, you are again grossly mistaken. I am increasingly of the feeling that new editors need to go through a training session to convey critical knowledge of what it is we are asking them to do when they begin editing here. There's a reason we do not accept permission to use on Wikipedia materials. There's a reason we do not accept non-commercial use only materials. These things are deleted on sight, with no waiting period. We're quite strict about this. See WP:CSD#Files F3. It is because those materials are not free as in libre. You are focusing on free as in gratis, and your misunderstanding of the issue reflects that. See Gratis versus Libre. Wikipedia is libre. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:16, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I actually like to think I have a pretty decent grasp of the difference between gratis and libre, but based on your response, I don't know if I could say the same of your position. Of course we're talking about libre here, even though actually both definitions apply to the project, libre is the first intended definition. When we're talking about free and non-free images we're not talking about this one is $0 and this one is $100, we're talking about what is free of rights and ownership issues and what are not "free" of those legal restrictions. If you think fair use has little to do with this discussion, I'd be inclined to question the authority you claim to hold on the subject matter, much less accusing others of being ill-informed about it. Tmore3 (talk) 02:07, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Smaller Resolution tag added to non-free image

The tag got put onto the logo for the Minnesota IMPLAN Group page, stopping the image from showing. This makes sense to me so far; I went in and uploaded a new and significantly smaller image, using the "M" Arcs from McDonalds as a basis to make sure I got it right this time (has happened once before). Now the logo shows up on the image page, but does not appear on the Minnesota IMPLAN Group page that is calling it. I waited a day or so just to make sure it wasn't a timing thing. Then I tried deleting the tag since it was no longer really relevant and perhaps stopping the image from showing? Whether or not it does stop the image from showing, deleting it has not solved my issue.

Is there some other aspect of the Smaller Resolution tag than just making the image tiny that I am missing?

Please help, and apologies for any stupid mistakes - I try to read up on everything, but it always seems like I miss something obvious.

Thanks for your time and concern, Trebor Noslo (talk) 14:30, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

• It appears to be displaying on the article just fine here. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:24, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

• Clarification: It shows fine in Firefox, not in IE or Chrome. Thank you for your response Trebor Noslo (talk) 20:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I did a purge on the image, and now it shows for me in IE. Does it show for you too? —teb728 t c 00:17, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

• yes, that looks like it did it. Thank you so much! For future reference, is purging something that I should know how to do? Trebor Noslo (talk) 17:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

It couldn't hurt to know about it. Several ways to purge are described at WP:Purge. —teb728 t c 18:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks to all that helped! As far as I am concerned this section can now be removed... don't know how to do it, though >.< 173.8.99.225 (talk) 14:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Just leave it, and after a week it will be archived automatically. —teb728 t c 23:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

happyface_wallpaper.png

Hello. An image I uploaded, File:happyface_wallpaper.png, was nominated for deletion. Honestly, I'm not sure where Wikipedia's policy would stand on that image. The original images was taken by a NASA satellite, the happy face was added by an anonymous user at 4chan.org, and finally, I made some small edits before uploading it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The8thbit (talk • contribs) 22:17, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Err, sorry, forgot to sign. 8bit (talk) 22:33, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

• I have trouble believing the original image was taken by a satellite of any variety. Protonk (talk) 00:50, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I feel confident in saying that no satellite ever launched is capable of taking a photo of that resolution, with that kinds of color detail, at that low of an angle! Absent verifiable information about the source of both image elements - the landscape and the smiley face - we have to treat it as non-free. In any case, it's not being used in an article anyway and Wikipedia is not a free image host for user pages. -- Hux (talk) 04:07, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Number of non-free pictures on a single page covering multiple characters

I was wondering if anyone could site me a reason why a page concerning several non-free characters should be limited to one non-free picture, if those characters are completely different. For example we have Inferno (Transformers), where there are several characters named Inferno over the 25 years of Transformers, and they are completely unrelated (a heroic fire truck from a 1985 TV show, a evil ant from Beast Wars, a Missile Launcher sidekick villian from the Armada cartooon and a computer debugger ambulance from the 2007 Transformers movie), yet I seem to be limited to ONE picture. All four look completely different. No one free image is available for any of the characters. Ideas? I mean do I have to get toys of all four of them and stand them next to each other to make it a single non-free image? That seems like a cop-out for just posting one picture of each of the four. Mathewignash (talk) 02:11, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:NFC#Non-free_image_use_in_list_articles is your first read, as well as the NFCC criteria I linked on your talkpage. Black Kite 02:18, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

To address your list of criteria - 1. The four Infernos never appeared in the same media, so a "cast shot" is impossible. 2. The four images are all discuessed in detail in the article. 3. Non-applicable (racial photo won't work). 4. Non-applicable (no repeating image). 5. I don't use a photo of the voice actor. 6. "Barring the above, images that are used only to visually identify elements in the article should be used as sparingly as possible. Consider restricting such uses to major characters and elements or those that cannot be described easily in text, as agreed to by editor consensus." This is exactly what the four images tried to do. "as sparingly as possible" does not mean you can represent one character with a picture of someone else. I don't see any alternative to one image of each character which still being descriptive. I could see removing extraious photos of the SAME character, or removing them if they looked identical, but are not and they do not. Mathewignash (talk) 02:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

As to the list of requirement you posted on my talk page... "Removing all the ones that fail any criteria of WP:NFCC, notably WP:NFCC#1, WP:NFCC#3a and WP:NFCC#8." #1 is not a concern, we have established there is NO non-free replacement. Neither is #8 a concern as an article ABOUT a character would certainly seem to have a picture of them be relivant. As for #3a, minimal usage only seems to apply if one picture could cover for another. I agree with this. If I had one picture of the Beast Wars Inferno TOY in "robot" mode, and another of the Beast Wars Inferno toy in ant mode, then I could replace them with a single picture. Additionally I could even see that I don't need a picture of THE SAME character as a toy, from a comic book, and in a TV series. However, you have done nothing to prove that one character's picture can adequitely replace another because they are different characters with the same NAME. What does a picture of a heroic robot fire truck from a 1984 TV series tell us about a evil ant pyromaniac from a 1992 TV series exactly? Mathewignash (talk) 02:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

You're missing a number of funamental points.

• On NFC, the first part is the most important, which you've missed out - "On articles ... that consist of several small sections of information for a series of elements common to a topic, such as a list of characters in a fictional work, non-free images should be used judiciously to present the key visual aspects of the topic. It is inadvisable to provide a non-free image for each entry in such an article or section." This is an the heart of your major misunderstanding; that you believe that different characters all need an image. They don't, and indeed shouldn't - NFC and NFCC are quite clear on that.
• WP:NFCC#1 is a concern, because you've missed the point that there is a non-free replacement - text. "A toy was produced that was a red fire truck", for example.
• WP:NFCC#3a is important - most articles where multiple non-free images were used to display, for example, a cast of characters, those images have been removed - and these articles are of the same type (indeed you've proved that in your last sentence above).
• Despite what you say, NFCC#8 is VERY relevant to these articles. The reader doesn't need to see a picture of a toy to understand that such a toy existed; and unless the appearance of that toy is of such vital importance that their understanding of the entire article was compromised, then no non-free image is justified. An analogy might be an article about an actor; we don't need an image of them in every role they played to understand the article about them, although a very limited number may be acceptable if they meet all the criteria and were necessary to increase the reader's understanding. Black Kite 03:01, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Not just a TOY, a CHARACTER. Inferno isn't a toy fire truck, he's a FICTIONAL CHARACTER. It's in the first line of the page. He's appeared in TV shows, comic books, toys, online content, been highlighted by Hasbro as a representatice of an entire series. To ever suggest that Inferno could be represented with a line of text saying "A toy was produced that was a red fire truck" is completely rediculous and you should try harder to make LEGITIMATE suggestions. You seem to also be missing something. This is not a simple cast list. These characters never appeared together, so your position of "list of characters in a fictional work" is pointless. The example you give would be like a cast list of characters, like List of Harry Potter characters. That has nothing to do with four characters named Inferno who share a page. It might be a better argement that a completely seperate character who is important enough to justify his own picture would also justify his own page? Mathewignash (talk) 03:09, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• I would appreciate it if you would not use phrasing like "completely ridiculous" when it is you who does not understand the concepts here, and also is failing to read my comments properly. I did not say that the article could be replaced by that line of text, I suggested that as an example, an image of a toy that was a red fire truck could be replaced by it, which is exactly what WP:NFCC#1 says.
• I said that these articles are lists of fictional characters. Which is exactly what they are. What does it matter that they never appeared together?
• A character notable enough to justify a page of their own may justify a non-free image, however I suspect in most cases the individual characters would not be individually notable (and the toys certainly wouldn't be). Black Kite 10:09, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to get into an arguement here, so I'll try to keep it civil. I do apprecate actually helpful suggestions though. The guideline "such as a list of characters in a fictional work, non-free images should be used judiciously to present the key visual aspects of the topic." The minimal key visual aspects? I realize that wording is open to interpetation, but it sounds like exactly what I suggest... one picture of each of four completely different characters - each with his own references, history, and description seperate from the other. I can actually see your point for the Jazz (Transformers) page, it was excessive. I also removed many pictures myself from articles you noted as having excessive non-free pictures. I still disagree on Inferno though - this one was not excessive. Mathewignash (talk) 13:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Wikipedia isn't a guide, directory or a complete exposition of all possible details. See WP:NOTDIR. For a person to understand the general topic of a particular list of characters, they do not need to know what each and every character in the set of characters looks like. If we were to be a guide, then yes having a picture of every character would make sense. But, we're not. Instead, we limit ourselves to key visual aspects. Every character is not key, nor is the appearance of every character. Think of the trumpet analogy. To understand what a trumpet sounds like, you do not need to hear every note it can possibly sound. To understand what a list of fictional characters generally look like, you don't need to display every single character. It's unnecessary. Wikipedia is a tertiary resource, not a primary or secondary one. If we were either a primary or a secondary source, then being a guide would make sense. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Indonesian ballots

According to {{PD-IDGov}}, publications of the Indonesian govt are PD. So, by that logic, would the various photos at Indonesian ballot papers (see for example [2]) be PD? The election commission is a government agency, and the photos in question have been submitted by the candidates and parties to be published in the ballots (which is a govt publication, thus PD by default). --Soman (talk) 16:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not an Indonesian lawyer, but I doubt that submitting the photo constitutes forfeiting the copyright in the image, and many candidates wouldn't even have the right to do so. Stifle (talk) 10:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

album cover art for songs not released as singles?

Is it considered an appropriate fair use of an image of an album cover to use it in the infobox of an individual song from that album that was not released as a single and therefore does not have it's own cover art?--Beeblebrox (talk) 03:36, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

No, as the album cover is not an appropriate representation of the single. However, be aware that many singles do have their own separate cover image that can be used there. --MASEM (t) 03:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Sheet music cover

I want to upload the sheet music cover image of a 1923 musical composition to illustrate the composition in question. I have two questions: firstly, Wikipedia:Public domain states that the image is in public domain if its copyright was not renewed (since it was published between 1923 and 1963). How do I know whether it was renewed or not? Is there a database somewhere with the information, or would I have to contact the copyright holder?

Also, in case the image is not in public domain, which license tag should I use? It's not quite a book or magazine cover, or an album cover. The closest I could find was {{Non-free sheet music}}, but it's explicitly stated in Wikipedia:Image copyright tags that that tag does not apply for sheet music covers. I do have a non-free use rationale for the image. Jafeluv (talk) 07:39, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I did a little search, and this search finds no entries on the name of the author or publisher, nor on the title of the composition. Is this sufficient evidence that the copyright has not been renewed? Jafeluv (talk) 07:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

No. That database is for book renewals only. To quote, "Stanford's Copyright Renewal Database compiles all US Class A (book) renewal registrations for works published between 1923 and 1963." I do not know of any online source containing U.S. copyright renewal records for music compositions. You would have to find a hard copy of the U.S. Copyright Catalog editions for 1950 and 1951. Try a Federal depository library. FYI, music, movies, and maps are the three categories of works most likely to have their copyrights renewed. — Walloon (talk) 18:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Actually, I asked a similar question in May, and the response I got said that tagging this image as {{PD-US-not renewed}} was appropriate, seemingly based on the search I linked to above. Maybe I should double-check that image somewhere as well? Jafeluv (talk) 22:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

{{Non-free product cover}} might be the best tag if you can't confirm that it's public domain. Also, if there's no copyright notice, {{PD-Pre1978}} might apply(check the precise language before applying that template). --Rat at WikiFur (talk) 18:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for your reply. Jafeluv (talk) 22:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

regarding image:slash1.jpg

I recieved permission from the photographer to use this photo. How do I cite this reference so that the pic doesn't get taken down. Moxiemom (talk) 19:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)moxiemom

See WP:COPYREQ for what kind of permission Wikipedia requires and how to have the photographer give it to Wikipedia. —teb728 t c 23:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Copyright of data generated by code?

Hi. If I use the freely-available code CMBFAST to generate some data, then plot a graph of that data myself, what's the copyright status of it? Can I release it into the PD, or does the data itself acquire any copyright status when the code produces it? The code and its documentation don't say anything about it, but IANAL so I'd appreciate some comment. Cheers, Olaf Davis (talk) 19:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

• I can't speak to what's generated just yet. But, the code you reference might be freely available as in gratis, but not as in libre. There's no release of copyrights on the page you reference, or any indication at all that it is available under a free license. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I should have been clearer about that. If it were libre then so, I suppose, would be its output - if not then I'd guess not but am far from sure. Perhaps I should just email the authors and ask. Olaf Davis (talk) 13:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

• Be careful what you ask for :) Some help is at Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:34, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Olaf Davis (talk) 14:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Cc-by-sa-3.0-migrated-with-disclaimers TFD

Could some experts weigh-in on Template:Cc-by-sa-3.0-migrated-with-disclaimers before it closes in negative 11 days? I would hate to relist it again. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 06:22, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

• Seems to me that since the Wikimedia lawyer basicaly told us there are no strong legal problems in either direction no particular expertise should be required to comment. All things beeing equal I think the best cause of action is to do what result in the least complexity. If we are not actualy legaly compelled to propegate the "with disclaimers" stuff when migrating the license to CC-BY-SA-3.0 we should not do it. The problem with the GDFL is that part of the license terms is that you are not allowed to remove disclaimers once added (re-users have to copy the Wikipedia disclaimer on top of the license text when re-using the those images anywhere), as a result we had to fork the GDFL template and add {{GFDL-with-disclaimers}} to all images uploaded in the period while the default GDFL template included the words "subject to disclaimers". If we are not actualy legaly required to propegate that mess when re-licensing material (and I assume Goodwin would have told us if we where) we should not do it. See Wikipedia:GFDL standardization for background on the situation. --Sherool (talk) 16:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

How to determine coyright images???

Well its the policy of Wikipedia that copyrighted images will be deleted,but how to determine that a particular image is copyrighted or not???Perhaps i am uploading images from google images search and its totally clear that images that are listed there are free from any copyright issues and useable freely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Estrynix (talk • contribs) 07:28, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The way to determine that a particular image is free to use is to look for a statement that it is licensed under a free license like Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0. Without that kind of license statement you should assume that content you find on the Internet is not free to use. —teb728 t c 08:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Or it may say that it's entirely uncopyrighted or in the public domain, which we can also use. But yes, it generally has to explicitly say it's free before we can use it. If you have any specific images in mind and you're not sure about their copyright status, you can always link to them to get a second opinion. Olaf Davis (talk) 09:20, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

File:Etyork.jpg

It would be great to have some input at User talk:Carnildo#Deleted photo Etyork.jpg about Florida PD law... I'm by no means an expert in that regard, and it would be great if someone with a little more knowledge of state copyright laws could take a look. Thanks! –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 14:49, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

• I think it's more appropriate to have this discussion here, rather than a user's talk page where we could end up hammering him with new message alerts. Given that...
• I'm confused. Why are we talking about Florida when the image is clearly, blatantly from "Auburn University Libraries Archives". Last time I checked, Auburn University hadn't picked up and moved into Florida. It's in Alabama. We need to be talking about Alabama law, not Florida law. As the image is marked now, there is zero evidence it has been released under GFDL. The only thing we have from Auburn University apparently (though no way to prove it as yet) is that it was released "For use in biography of E.T. York, former Alabama Cooperative Extension System director" It says nothing about what license it was released under. There's no proof, no way to verify. If in fact it was released under GFDL, then the Auburn University Archives can submit a letter to that effect to m:OTRS. We have to be able to prove the release under GFDL through some means. That means does not currently exist. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

File:He 177A and B Cockpits.jpg...might the employees of Heinkel's drafting department from seventy years ago STILL own the copyright on this drawing???

Dear Wikipedia copyright legal experts:

The PIPE Here...and I've got a good question for you!

In my desire to help Wikipedia document aviation history (I'm an amateur aviation historian in my spare time) I think I might have "hit a legal wall" on actually posting post-January 1, 1923 "first-publishing-date" images that would help to document certain German WW II aircraft projects, and one of the most intriguing designs, the Heinkel He 177, might be a "recent enough" example where using images, that originated with the now long defunct Heinkel aviation firm's engineering staff (speficaly their drafting department) MIGHT still be under copyright, according to modern German copyright law!

The page about German copyright law here at Wikipedia, that might affect how such documentation could be placed up on a Wikipedia page, that dealt with such a historic aircraft such as the He 177, seems to show from the possibly appropriate text at about German copyright law, that the ultimate copyright for such a drawing would STILL reside with the actual draftsperson(s) that worked for Heinkel in 1943 (when the drawings for the He 177 in question were created), and NOT with the firm itself, as there is supposedly no form of "corporate" copyright within Germany, that would be honored today in the 21st century.

I also recently telephoned the German Consulate-General in Boston, MA to ask about this question, and they confirmed that it IS quite likely that the draftspeople for the Heinkel firm, from that WW II timeframe, WOULD most likely retain all control of the copyrights on those drawings, as they were the original creators of them...since the trio of He 177-related factory drawings that I found to be very valuable on documenting that aircraft's history were scanned from the pages of my copy of the Crowood Press-published on the subject aircraft, and authored by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel, the German Consulate suggested that I also might want to contact Crowood about that copyright issue.

Now...since I WOULD still like to see some sort of content appearaing at Wikipedia, concerning the developments of the He 177, along the lines of the information those three drawings contained (regarding the four-engined He 177B prototypes, with two of the three drawings directly related to the He 177B's intended eventual visual appearance, with the remaining one regarding the never-built Heinkel He 277's general appearance, might I be much better advised to simply use those drawings solely as a basis, for CAD drawings of the He 177B & 277's appearances, that I would author myself, that would be directly based on them, but be somewhat different in form, that I could donate the copyright for to Wikipedia?

I'm going to be removing that contentious, Heinkel-authored "He 177A and B Cockpits" JPEG drawing scan content that I originally uploaded for the reference purpose of showing the He 177B's intended production cockpit, and start planning on creating my own CAD-based version, that would be a bit different in how that info is shown, but be of the same general nose and side-view info...I might even throw in a carefully done top view as well, from other info I've got access to, that those drawings do NOT show. I'll also state where the information for my CAD drawing came from, which, even though that information WOULD still be under the German copyright laws that apparently still attribute the copyright (even in 2009!) to Heinkel's long-dissolved drafting staff from 1943, the He 177-related drawing{s} I would produce for Wikipedia on my CAD system here at home, WOULD be all my own work and content, and should easily be "donatable" to Wikipedia for educational purposes (and uploading to Wikipedia), without any possibility of copyright infringement under German copyright law.

So...IF I created my own CAD drawing, directly based on the information from a scan of a Heinkel drafters' created drawing they did in 1943, could THAT be uploaded to Wikipedia without any copyright-legality issues in any way?

Thanks in advance, and Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE (talk) 16:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Unclear status of Pershmap.gif; General helpfulness

This image has been deleted twice, and I have uploaded it a third time, because I have still not properly received clarification.

• The original map was created in the early 1920s
• The original map was created by the federal government
• This map is a reproduction of the original map, but the originality of it is ambiguous. Where do we draw the line of what is an original work and what is not?

I will ask the author for permission, but I would like to first have clarification here, and also, as a matter of principle, reach a consensus on a question that is completely reasonable.

Please discuss this and the question below on my talk page.

Helpfulness

I feel that the way that images are deleted compromises the ethics of collaboration and the goals of quality. Wikipedia is about collaboratively working towards its improvement. Can someone please discuss with me on my talk page the above image, as well as point out to me the policies/norms for how images are deleted? If the process is fair and helpful, the process is very unclear to users.

NittyG (talk) 16:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

biography of mohamed ahmed

Mohamed Ahmed was born in lower Jubba Somalia in 1984. during the civil he moved to Afamdow where his family resides now. In 1998 his brother Abdirahman Barre Musse called him to study in the refugee camp where he was the a headmaster through abdirahman Barre he finished his studies upto College —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohafurre (talk • contribs) 10:18, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

What media copyright question are you asking? —teb728 t c 20:37, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

copyright

I used a scan of the front cover of a book published in 1953 by the Government of Ireland and long since out of print, is this not allowable under 'fair use'?Eog1916 (talk) 12:35, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

What image are you asking about? It might be acceptable for identification in the infobox of the article on the book. Otherwise, even if it might be fair use, it is unlikely to be acceptable under WP:NFC. —teb728 t c 20:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Recent preformances of Public Domain music

Is the performance of music considered public domain if the music being performed is in the public domain? For example, I would like to upload the version of "On, Wisconsin!" found here but, I am unsure if that performance is considered copyrighted. Daniel J Simanek (talk) 19:03, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

• Absolutely not. Any performance of music immediately attracts a new copyright, regardless of the original status of the sheet music. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Ok. I was just checking. Thanks. Daniel J Simanek (talk) 21:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

WMATA maps?

File:WMATA Silver Line map.png seems a bit sketchy; can I have more opinions? --NE2 22:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Wiktionary logo

Just curious — how is it that the current Wiktionary logo does not qualify under {{PD-textlogo}}? Nyttend (talk) 04:41, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

how do you make a article

how do you make a article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by *jasleen4evr* (talk • contribs) 00:47, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, first you write it on your user page. There you edit it (easiest with the help of an editor) and make it so it fits Wikipedia's standards. When you are done, you type in the tite of your article in search. It should say that the page doesn't exist, and will ask you if you would like to create it. Copy everything from your userpage and paste it onto the new page, and voila! --Iliada 01:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Your first article. —teb728 t c 02:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Exactly how do I copy CC 3.0 images to Commons?

I've just encountered a user who is uploading fine-quality images (and immediately putting them to good use) locally under CC 3.0; an example is File:Downtown St Clairsville Ohio.JPG. I'm sure that they'd be good to have at Commons; but what exactly do I have to reproduce on the Commons description page? Just a link to the original file with a statement of "taken by English Wikipedia editor Bwsmith84 and released under CC 3.0"? Or do I have to include data from the log as well? I'm an admin, so I'll not worry about tagging the local images for someone else to delete them. Nyttend (talk) 04:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I would reccoment just using the Commons helper tool (linked to from the {{Copy to Wikimedia Commons}} template). Just carefully follow the instructions and everything should be taken care of automaticaly (double check afterwards just in case though). --Sherool (talk) 12:04, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Horiata

Hello, I would like to put a sample of a song my great grandfather wrote on the article that I am writing. (User:Iliada) The problem is, even though my great grandfather wrote it in Greece during a time where they didn't have copyrights, Wikippedia is not allowing me to use the whole song. But I remember seeing something about putting a 30 second or less sample of music. Can I do this? Thanks, --Iliada 12:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• Keep in mind that the written form of music can be clear of copyright and the performance of that music might not be. A professional orchestra that performs any of Mozart's work is clearly performing written music that is clearly in the public domain. However, their performance of the music can be and usually is copyrighted. So, generally speaking you can display the sheet music your great grandfather wrote, but if you want to have a sound sample you need to have copyright clearance for it, or use it under fair use. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright

Hi,

I have uploaded the following book cover images -

• File:Tunnels Roderick Gordon & Brian Williams.jpg
• File:Deeper Roderick Gordon and Brian Williams.jpg
• FreeFall_Roderick_Gordon_and_Brian_Williams.jpg - which I see has been removed.

All images are available on publishers website and I have given full details of this, yet every month you say it does not fulfill copyright. I do not fully understand references to copyright tagging, but when I look at other pages (childrens fiction), my information is the same as other sites - what am I missing?

Also the following images have been uploaded by me with permission of the author/owner, but are not in the public domain, how should these be classified?

• File:The Highfield Mole and Limited Edition Prints.jpg

Also I uploaded an image called The Book of Catastrophes.jpg - which has been removed and cannot find in the history??

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

--Lifesawhirl (talk) 16:05, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• The images that haven't been deleted are all tagged appropriately, and have fair use rationales. They look good to go. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:10, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Copyright

How and where can I receive a license? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tserg (talk • contribs) 16:04, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission --Hammersoft (talk) 16:10, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

File:Here Waits Thy Doom.png & File:Mixtape Messiah 7.jpg

Do these images meet the fair use criteria? #8 specifically? I've uploaded these images but when I read the policy carefully it says the article should contain text about the image itself, but then there are lots of album articles on Wikipedia with cover art but no commentary about the cover itself. Is this acceptable? If these two images don't meet the policy I will tag them for deletion (G7) myself. Thanks, —SpaceFlight89 18:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• If the release itself is notable, then a single non-free image of the cover is generally accepted as unexceptional even though WP:NFCC is unclear on this. Black Kite 19:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

File:ODJB Livery Stable Blues 1917.ogg

Could someone please take a look at the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured sound candidates/Livery Stable Blues? The story is that I uploaded a 1917 music recording to Commons, under the impression that since it was recorded before 1923, it is now in public domain in the United States. Then, an editor expressed a concern that the 1923 cutoff doesn't apply to recordings, and the file was tagged with commons:Template:PD-US record. The tag, however lists the state of New York as an exception, and the recording was made in New York City. The question is, can the recording be considered public domain in the US or not? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Jafeluv (talk) 19:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• First, see commons:Template:PD-US-record which notes that recordings made before 1972 are not protected by Federal Copyright law but may be protected by State common law copyright, which may last until 2067. Second, see this court case which says "we [*19]conclude that New York provides common-law copyright protection to sound recordings not covered by the federal Copyright Act, regardless of the public domain status in the country of origin, if the alleged act of infringement occurred in New York." Other states have not adjudicated this issue. So, if uploading the file to wikipedia in infringement, then as long as Jafeluv does not live in NY, there is not problem. On the other hand, if downloading or listening to the file is infringement, than any wikipedia reader in NY is infringing on the copyright, meaning that the sound needs a fair use rationale, that it is ineligible for Featured Sound status, and that the PD-US-record template needs to be changed. Any thoughts? Thatcher 19:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Have uploaded picture of charity logo for Royal London Society for the Blind, and have permission to use this on wikipedia. Would like to add copyright tag to avoid it being removed!