Talk:Arain

DISCONTINUE FROM PERSISTENTLY PROMOTING THE FALLACY THAT BHUTTOS ARE ARAINS

It beggars belief that there are still those who persist with the entirely false claim that the Bhuttos are Arains (and at the very least, when this is such a point of contention, trying to pass off such fanciful claims as fact, is highly problematic); the following is being re-quoted from a previous discussion dealing with this issue:

“...Benazir Bhutto herself, categorically stated in her autobiography that she is descended from Rajputs, and her biographer and close friend, Shyam Bhatia went on record to state that Benazir took pride in her Rajput ancestry. Here, I’ll even reproduce the exact quote:

"But Pinky always took pride in her Rajput ancestry and said it was only during war that India and Pakistan hated each other. But in peace, they liked each other."

See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/rssarticleshow/msid-3061556,prtpage-1.cms

"Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: tBold texthe

Heading text

Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc."

http://ppiusindh.org/hyderabad-sindh-district-of-sindh-pakistan.html

"Bhutto: Perhaps the most famous of the Sindh Rajputs, they are a clan of the Bhatti Rajputs, and as such are Chandravanshi. They are found in Larkana District, in a cluster of villages such as Mirpur Bhutto and Salar Bhutto north of Larkana city."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_Rajputs

Refer also to the following article:

“The Bhutto clan is rajput, a word of Hindu origin, a hereditary warrior caste which dominates both Indian and Pakistani armies to this day.”

http://blai.newsvine.com/_news/2007/12/30/1193585-shah-nawaz-the-legacy-of-the-bhuttos?groupId=84

www.globalsecurity.org also carries an article on the Bhutto tribe. The following extract, is taken from this article:

“The Bhutto family traces its migration from Jaiselmere in India to Sindh to Setho Khan Bhutto in the fifteenth century AD. The Bhutto family migrated to Sindh during the reign of Mughuls when Kalhoras were ruling in Sindh under the suzerainty of Mughul Emperors. They settled and established themselves in Taluka Ratodero, District Larkana and owned vast tracts of fertile land in the District of Larkana, Jacobabad and Shikarpur. Where rice, cotton and sugarcane was produced in plant. By some accounts the Bhutto family was the biggest and wealthiest landlord in Sindh and their style of living and conducting themselves was totally different from rest of their class in Sindh; they could face any situation any adversary and dignity, and unlike many other landlords they finally believed in pomp, pageantry, dignity and authority.”

“These Rajput converts probably became Muslims in the 18th century. Doda Khan Bhutto headed of the family during the Talpur Dynasty, and then during Charles Napier's rule of Sindh. Doda Khan Bhutto worked to acquire large tracts of land, and was responsible for the vast land ownership of the Bhutto family. By one account Doda Khan Bhutto was described by the British as "the best and most enterprising zamindar in the whole of sindh".

Even the Encyclopædia Britannica, opens its entry on Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, with the words:

"Born into a noble Rājpūt family that had accepted Islām, Bhutto was the son of a prominent political figure in the Indian colonial government."

See: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/64265/Zulfikar-Ali-Bhutto —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gill Jat (talk • contribs) 00:51, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Finally, the renowned historian, Stanley Wolpert, also underlined the Rajput origins of the Bhutto tribe, in his biography of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, namely, Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan:

“Zulfi’s paternal ancestors had before his clan’s long trek been Hindu Rajputs...”

http://books.google.com/books?ei=EjQZTIPUMY_64AaJtJ3-Cw&ct=result&id=C-ltAAAAMAAJ&dq=zulfi+bhutto+of+pakistan&q=rajputs#search_anchor

“... and many Rajput warriors, like Zulfi’s progenitor, Sheto converted to Islam...”

http://books.google.com/books?ei=EjQZTIPUMY_64AaJtJ3-Cw&ct=result&id=C-ltAAAAMAAJ&dq=zulfi+bhutto+of+pakistan&q=rajput#search_ancho

Thus please stop regurgitating the same myths and half-truths that are continuously being peddled, and make a mockery of what is supposed to be an encyclopaedic entry. Gill Jat (talk) 21:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• BHUTTOS ARE FROM ARAB(ARAIN) CONQUEST ORIGIN TOLD BY BENAZIR

here is the documentry in which benazir herself told abt his abrab (arain) origin .the name of the dacomentry is 'daughter of power ' . listen wat muterma says her self and stop barking .— Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.120.250.72 (talk • contribs)

Re: Current Edit

The article has been partly reverted to an earlier edit, due to Satbir Singh’s ridiculous and muddled take on this topic, based on his biased and erroneous assertions, and misinterpretation of source material that has been inconsistently applied. Current edit supports the views of the majority of Wikipedians who have debated, discussed and dealt with this article, as well as being backed by reliable sources. Please note that besides Satbir Singh’s contributions (often characteristically messy and prejudiced) being ridiculed - with good reason - by other Wikipedians, he has also been banned indefinitely from editing, thus underlining what an unreliable authority he is. Relevant information from previous edit has been incorporated into the current edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.69.191 (talk) 19:05, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

According wikipedia Mian Family of Baghbanpura is from Arain Tribe.This family tree tell you more about the origin of arain.This would also help us to understand piont of view of mughal kings about Arain who awarded them title of Mian and Nawabs.I ask you to get reference about arian last 1000 years rather than just form last 200 years which only give brief information about Arian. According to wikipedia artical Gurki family is also from Arain Tribe is also famous family in politics. If both families are from arian tribe then their names should be on this article about Arain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.132.97.132 (talk) 04:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Muhammad Hanif Ramay (1930–2006) was an internationally renowned intellectual, journalist and former Governor and Chief Minister of Punjab, and he was among the founding fathers of the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP).Born near Sheikhupura in 1930, in an Arain agriculturist family. Could you put his name on Arain Article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.146.27 (talk) 01:14, 5 April 2010 (UTC) My question here is who deleted famous arian Section.Could he/she tells us about his/her parents and family background.He/she doesnot want to see successful and famous arian but I want to tell you that you would have to live in the world where you have been seeing and will see highly successful and famous Arains. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.132.97.132 (talk) 03:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

FOR THE ATTENTION OF SATBIR SINGH

Satbir, I have already informed you that it is in your best interests not to resort to personal insults, particularly accusations of racism – I abhor racism in all its forms, have experienced it’s negative effects, and if you hurl this accusation in my direction again, I will waste no time in reporting you for making this highly offensive slur against me – you’ve already been warned by Charlesdrakew to remain cool, and thus you’d be well advised to follow his advice.

Judging by your conduct, that you have the nerve to label me a “fanatic” beggars belief.

Just because I have not created an ID for myself, does not mean that your speculations about me wishing to conceal my identity, my origins and the degree of my knowledge about the history, culture etc of Punjab and the Punjabi people are correct (and for you to simplistically and mistakenly claim that all Punjabi tribes are descended from Aryans or Scythians, and then question my knowledge, is just ironic) – in fact, you are woefully mistaken on all counts. It is highly arrogant of you to assume that the sources you have provided in support of your contentions are the sole, true authorities on the subject matter you are clearly so passionate about. In actual fact, the source material I provided is not only of a more contemporary nature than that furnished by you (and free of many of the errors that feature in the material you’ve provided, errors which I, and others, have already pointed out), but two of the authors I named (Tan Tai Yong and Alison Shaw) are well-respected academics, and more than sufficiently knowledgeable about the subject matter they have compiled scholarly works on. That both of these authors are non-Punjabis, and thus effectively neutral and having no vested interests in presenting a particular perspective, means your assertion that I am interested in advancing a “lop-sided” viewpoint, does not hold true; moreover, I have not, as you claim, simply resorted to using “selective” references, I have actually quoted from specific sources in reference to specific issues.

I have taken a look at your user page, and the extent to which you believe that your view of history, your belief that the source material you provide is highly reliable (and I’m afraid, as much as you may believe this to be true, this is not entirely accurate), and the dogmatic manner you often adopt when discussing these issues, leaves a lot to be desired. Just because your edits – in your view – may be more exhaustive or broad (a moot point), does not necessarily mean that they are entirely valid.

And to touch upon a point I made earlier, for you to talk about me not having a user ID, being an indication that I lack “guts” and precludes me being dealt with properly, just smacks of immaturity on your part. Furthermore, when the majority of Wikipedians employ pseudonyms, of what relevance is your mini-rant against me in this regard? How is having an ID that in all probability, will not even reflect an individual’s real identity (as holds true for the majority of Wikipedia users), proof that one possesses “guts,” especially when it is still not possible to determine that particular individual’s identity without him/her revealing this? And even then, it is difficult to ascertain the veracity of any such claim. As such, when it comes to this matter, your attack on me is nothing more than rank stupidity, and reflects very poorly on you.

What next? Are you going to challenge me to “step outside” and prove my courage? For someone who is trying to present the image of a learned individual, you do yourself no favours (not that I doubt you are learned – as am I, in fact, more knowledgeable about Punjab and its people than you think).

Moving on, I have already stressed out that I do not agree with the caste system, and believe that an individual should be judged on the basis of the content of his/her character – but this does not mean that I do not accept the reality of the fact that Punjabi society has divided itself on the basis of a social hierarchy; again, I do not believe this is morally correct, but if you choose to deny this (and it does comes across as if you have a chip on your shoulder about something, an observation that others have also made about you), you are being nothing but dishonest. A non-Punjabi academic such as Alison Shaw, whom I hope you will agree has no personal agendas (at least I assume that you will concede that common sense dictates this) has even commented at length upon the issue of caste amongst Pakistani Punjabis – the reason I underline this, is because the majority of Pakistani Punjabis, as you no doubt realise, are adherents of Islam, a faith to which caste divisions are anathema - yet so persuasive are these social divisions, that as Shaw examines in her work, ‘Kinship and Continuity’ their effects can be found to have a profound impact even upon a community of Pakistani origin that does not even reside in Pakistan, but in contemporary Britain (specifically, in Oxford); in other words, even amongst an immigrant community, living in a modern day, western society, caste and its attendant social divisions, based on patrilineal descent or traditional functional occupations (in spite of some present day members of the latter group no longer following a particular vocation associated with their ancestors), even if not adhered to, or as relevant as in times gone by, still have a deep and profound impact on the way Pakistani Punjabi society is ordered, and its interactions (and one just has to look to observances in relation to marriage, for an example of just how true this remains, both on a rural and urban level). The table compiled by Alison Shaw when examining this topic, serves as a useful reminder - see:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KVQ5Lxd8rNMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=alison+shaw#PPA116,M1)

So to answer a question you posed to me once before, I am not the one who decided which particular Punjabi clans of functional groups, should be ranked on the basis of a hierarchical system – Punjabi society took this upon itself, centuries ago, though I do hope that a time will come when Sayyeds, Janjuas, Gakkhars etc are not looked upon as being superior in terms of social ranking than the groups such as those, for example, generally referred to as ‘Kammis’ and the like. But to attempt to deny that certain groups in the Punjab are ranked and recognised (however unfortunate this may be) by their peers as belonging to “higher” or “lower” castes (for want of a better word), and that this does have a bearing upon how Punjabi society functions, is dishonest (academic or otherwise).

If, after reading through it, you can dismiss the source I have provided a link to (i.e. Shaw’s exhaustive work) then you don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

In case you want confirmation of Shaw’s credentials, please see:

http://www.ethox.org.uk/people/alison-shaw

As you can see, the source that I have quoted from (i.e. ‘Kinship and Continuity’) is considered to be:

“A classic, landmark ethnography of Pakistani migration and settlement.”

But perhaps you still consider yourself to be a greater authority than the Oxbridge educated scholar.

As for Tan Tai Yong, he has regularly contributed to the ‘International Journal of Punjab Studies’.

Now I am going to make a partial revelation as far as my ethnic origins are concerned. Despite what you say, I do respect the sensitivities of Arains and groups affiliated to them, which is why, upon reflection, I have not chosen to re-insert the point Alison Shaw made, vis-a-vis how the present day Jat and Rajput communities of Jhelum, look upon Arains (even though she makes a completely valid and factual point) – you see, through marriage, I do have Arain relatives, and although they take no issue with the edit that I reverted the article to, the one point that I just mentioned, did rankle with them, and I respect this. However, on my mother’s side, I am descended from one of the groups that I am going to go on to make reference to, in the next paragraph (although I don’t see why there is any reason why I should reveal the name of this group, nor my father’s tribe, which is not Arain, Awan or Rajput etc – if you don’t like this, tough. I am not obliged to, nor owe anyone an explanation in this regard, and retain the right to keep my racial origins private on this website; that’s my prerogative). Suffice to say, my father is Punjabi.

In keeping with what I have said above, if you are to talk about the sensitivities of Arains and the like, what about the sensitivities of groups such as Janjuas and Awans? Rightly or wrongly, these groups take pride in their lineage, just as rightly or wrongly, groups that are ranked above or below these tribes do. So when not even all true blood (and don’t attempt to put a negative spin on my words, as no racial connotations are intended – you know exactly what I mean, and the context in which I use this expression) Awans can claim Qutub Shahi status (Qutub Shahi status being looked upon as the most prestigious by the Awan community), what makes you think a section of the Maliar community doing so, makes its claim valid? The same holds true for Maliars calling themselves Janjuas - all the more ludicrous, given this Rajput tribe’s aversion to agriculture (See Tan Tai Yong’s widely acclaimed and respected work, ‘The Garrison State’: http://books.google.com/books?id=d5ZiMV7rqWUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=garriso+state), even to the extent that at times, it was to the detriment of this tribe; as is the case with Awans, this is a distinct tribe (not a mere - nor genuine - clan of the Maliar community) to which one belongs on the basis of PATRILINEAL descent; thus a functional caste such as the Maliar claiming these groups as clans of its own, is a ridiculous fraud, and the insincere nature of their baseless, whimsical claim has been commented upon by J.M. Wikeley in his text, ‘Punjabi Musalmans’ :

“Maliars are fond of calling themselves by the name of some tribe higher in the social, as Awan or Janjua.”

See: http://www.archive.org/stream/punjabimusalmans00wikeuoft/punjabimusalmans00wikeuoft_djvu.txt

Again, I have not twisted source material, nor presented a slanted take on the issue – I have only stated the facts as they stand, quoted from another widely-respected source to consolidate and verify my position on this matter, and anyone with even a basic knowledge of how Punjabi society is structured, and the history of tribes such as the Awan and Janjua, would realise that common sense supports my comments (as well of those of Wikeley – and tell me, did Wikeley, neither a Janjua, nor an Awan have a vested interest, or racist agenda, that led him to make the remarks that I have quoted?). It is not racism or snobbery that leads to Awans or Janjuas etc objecting to the claims made by the Maliar community in relation to their tribes (and as I said, I have seen firsthand the displeasure that these false claims cause amongst these groups), but simply that Maliars are fraudulently associating itself with the two aforementioned groups – when the Maliars have no right to do so, no basis for doing so (a basis which is rooted in patrilineal descent, to which the Maliars cannot lay claim), why on earth should Awans and Janjuas accept this fraud and allow it to persist? Why should it not ne exposed, as illustrated by Wikeley? If I am not a member of the Royal House of Windsor, though no-one can stop me from claiming this is the case, should it be taken seriously? If the Maliars have chosen to attempt to establish mythical clan connections, then this does not mean that it deserves to be taken seriously by academics. On the one hand, you quote Ibbetson when mentioning Maliars and the groups that I have just mentioned (Awans, Janjuas etc), yet conveniently, on the other hand, you dismiss his comments regarding the association between Sainis and Arains. Well, Ibbetson should have more forcefully pointed out what Wikeley did – period. The Maliar’s claims are rooted in lies and a lie that does not deserve to be entertained. When you yourself state that:

“Malis and Arains are occupational communities, while Sainis are a distinct ethnic community.”

Then the above can also be paraphrased to:

“Maliar is an occupational community, while Awans and Janjuas are distinct ethnic communities.”

And for the record, it makes no difference if the tribe or functional group is high-ranking or low-ranking, Awans, Janjuas, etc would simply take umbrage to any associations made between them and other groups that are based on falsehoods.

Above all, far from having a personal agenda (because I know you’re going to twist the statements I have made above), it is in the interests of historical accuracy that I object to the above association being made (the same reason I’m tired of pointing out Bhuttos are not Arains, the Bhutto tribe being one that I have no links to, thus there is no need for you to cook up another of your conspiracy theories).

I, along with others, have already underlined the fallacies included within the piece on Arain social rankings that was previously included in the article, as well as the short comings of the blood group study (again, previously included, and often removed as a result). However, for someone who prides himself on academic honesty and maintaining Wikipedia standards, why, when reverting the article to your previous edit, did you include the section on ‘Famous Arains’, and a list of names that not only does not conform to Wiki standards, but includes names that I, and other users, have already underlined, of individuals who are not Arains? Just today, I made the following note on this discussion page – did you not see it, or did you just choose to ignore it?

“Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto were RAJPUTS. Shoaib Akhtar is a GUJJAR. Wasim Akram is a JAT. Fazal Mahmood was of PATHAN descent. Ijaz Ahmed is of KASHMIRI descent.”

If you read through the Wiki article on Shoaib Akhtar, and scroll to the bottom, there is even a link provided to an Urdu language interview he gave to a national Pakistani daily, where he confirms his Gujjar origins:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoaib_Akhtar

Maybe you think that Shoaib has an agenda by declaring himself to be a Gujjar, or that words from his own mouth constitute a twisted and unreliable source?

Proof of the other names listed above (as well as names in addition to this), as being of non-Arain origin has been provided before. Although I have not amended the bulk of your article (save for removing the unnecessary reference to Awans, Janjuas, Bhuttos etc), I have altered the list of famous Arain personalities to one that the majority of Wikipedians who have discussed this topic, agree upon as being accurate.

Did you also miss the short paragraph on this discussion page, entitled, ‘The Bhutto Debacle?’ To say that because ‘Bhutto’, linguistically, sounds similar to the name of the Arain clan ‘Bhutta’, and thus conclude that there is a link between the two is a highly simplistic and mistaken line of thought (e.g. there is a Gujjar clan called ‘Awana’ – should one therefore conclude that the Awan tribe can also be included in the Gujjar fold?). How on earth can you seriously claim that there is a “probability” that on the basis of this, the two tribes are linked, and more importantly, pass off what you view as nothing more than a “probability” as fact?! Even if you can prove that there is a linguistic link, how then can you make the leap to classify a recognised Rajput tribe, as Arain? Only in your world do these distinctions mean nothing. The discussion page relating to this article, even carries a link to an article highlighting that Bhuttos are Rajputs:

“Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: the Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc.”

See: http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/Sindh.html

The Wikipedia article on Sindhi Rajputs, mentions that the Bhuttos are:

Perhaps the most famous of the Sindh Rajputs, they are a clan of the Bhatti Rajputs, and as such are Chandravanshi. They are found in Larkana District, in a cluster of villages such as Mirpur Bhutto and Salar Bhutto north of Larkana city.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_Rajput

There’s even a nice pic of Z.A. Bhutto on that page...

And even Benazir Bhutto’s biographer and close friend, Shyam Bhatia, remarked upon Benazir (whom she refers to by her nickname, “Pinky”) taking great pride in her Rajput ancestry:

"But Pinky always took pride in her Rajput ancestry and said it was only during war that India and Pakistan hated each other. But in peace, they liked each other."

See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/rssarticleshow/msid-3061556,prtpage-1.cms

I’ve also mentioned that Benazir mentioned her Rajput ancestry in her autobiography, ‘Daughter of the East’, but you know, perhaps you also consider this to be a twisted and slanted take on things, even though it came straight from the horse’s mouth (so to speak) – after all this was one of the sources you said claimed was not convincing, though if Benazir herself said it, God only knows what will convince you. Who knows, perhaps you also think that Shyam Bhatia has an agenda, though if you do, I’d love to know what you think it could be?

Why is it that amongst all the numerous texts that I, and others, have quoted from (and there are plenty more that still haven’t been referred to), that mention the relationship between Z.A. Bhutto and Zia-ul-Haq, and emphasise that the latter belonged to the Arain community, not a single author sees fit to reveal that both men belonged to the same community? How could such a glaring coincidence be glossed over? Because their respective tribes were not one and the same, that’s why. If anything, the plethora of sources that have been cited, indicate that Bhutto looked down upon the community that Zia belonged to (which also proved to be the former’s undoing, a result of him underestimating the man who came to be his greatest foe, based on suppositions he made about his Arain origins). Read Emma Duncan’s acclaimed, ‘Breaking the Curfew’ and you will get an insight into how Zia ensured that the Arain community’s interests were advanced during his tenure in power, and just how preposterous a notion it is that he would have taken the life of Bhutto in such a dramatic fashion, had the latter actually been a kinsman.

The impression I am left with, is that you, in your erroneous belief that all Punjabi tribes (extending this to Sindh) are descended from Aryans or Scythians, are all inter-related, and thus are clutching at straws to prove that they are all one and the same – well, the reality is, it just doesn’t work like that (pay a visit to Punjab and try positing your theories amongst a group of typically diverse Punjabis, scholars and non-scholars alike, and see how far you get) and the situation is far more complex, but continue to ignore the facts of history, which has left its impact upon Punjabi society in all its myriad forms (which of course includes matters relating to the fabric of Punjabi society, how it has evolved, its composition and social order).

Claim as much as you like that Arains are the “kinsmen” of Jats and Rajputs. Alison Shaw’s statement from ‘Kinship and Continuity’ highlights just what I’ve pointed out in the paragraph above:

“Jats and Rajputs from Jhelum consider that the Arain are a service caste, ranked ‘lower’ than the zamindars and refer to the Arain by the term Maliar, which is apparently used in Jhelum to refer to people who traditionally grow vegetables around wells.”

So much for your fanciful statements – the above paragraph illustrates just how much respect your views would hold in reality amongst sections of Punjabi society (not that I agree in any way with one tribe looking down upon another – for you will twist my words – and fortunately, this mode of thought is not prevalent amongst all Punjabis, nevertheless, I am stressing the reality of the situation). Whatever you may claim to be the origins of the various Punjabi tribes, how they may overlap in terms of clan affiliations, how they are one people etc., cannot detract from the fact that these tribes have come to form, and look upon themselves, as distinct entities, even if they do share some common bonds. So try as much as you may, you cannot alter this historical and sociological fact, and disingenuously dismiss those who point this out to you, as “fanatics” (an extremely foolish assertion on your part). You sound as ridiculous as many of those belonging to tribes such as the Sayyeds, Awans, etc., who to this day actually refer to themselves as Arabs, based on a claim to Arab descent that stretches back centuries.

Then again, idiocy seems to rule the various edits of the article. I can still recall the shameless fallacy that some were attempting to pass off here about the Arains being considered a martial race, both pre and post-partition, which only came to an end when a heap of references were provided that categorically proved this to be the exact opposite of the truth when it comes to this topic.

Anyway, I’m done discussing this topic, and as remains the case, have provided plenty of material prior to this, which is perfectly valid, scholarly , balanced and respected in the world of academia. I’ve left you to do with the article as you please, despite the fact you have still littered it with complete and utter lies and nonsense (your bias and arrogance of which you have the nerve to accuse me of, prevents you from acknowledging this), and turned it into a joke. Your “exhaustive” and “complete” article is nothing more than a muddled mess, and I no longer care if it is, but if you re-add the material I have removed, and given more than enough reason in the course of this discussion for doing so, rest assured, I will remove it again – and should you do so, look closer to home before hurling accusations of vandalism in my direction.

The fact is, you maintain your edit is justified, and I maintain that my edit is justified. You assert your sources are correct and that my source material is flawed, and I maintain that my source material is up to date (something that is of the utmost importance), accurate and counters the references you have cited. And ultimately you accuse me of vandalism, and I hold that this accusation should be aimed at you. But quite frankly, when it comes down to it, I have better things to do than go round in circles with you.

I do not claim to be a great sage, far from it, but believe me, you’re not half as clever as you think you are; looking through your discussion page, more than proves this.

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.180.25 (talk) 19:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, fine, fine for your lengthy lecture.

Firstly I want to clarify your misunderstanding that I am not the one with IP 72.211.215.92 who inserted/ or re-inserted "Sainis differentiated from Arains or Raiens" section in the article. Also, I care the least about "Famous Arain" section and did not insert/or reinsert it in the article. Do not point fingers at me for nothing. Perhaps the guy with IP 72.211.215.92 who edited/or added these two sections would come up and admit this on this page so that your/other readers misgiving is cleared. And I leave it between you and him to deal with "Sainis differentiated from Arains or Raiens" section. I am not in it and don't care about it.

Also, whatever your so-called contemporary references, I care the least. In my discussion section, I only used clan names criteria (which the British ethnographers also used extensively) to show that Arains are a "mixed body of several castes" (as Steedman has observed), which included marginal cultivators from all land owning classes of north-west of the past few centuries. This is evident from the Arain clan names many of which evidently overlap with the Jatts, Rajputs, Kamboj, Sainis and other minor tribes of the Punjab. No one can deny or refute this reality. It is another matter if someone wants to invent a theory that Arains and Maliars have falsely stolen Rajput, Janjua or Awan clan names. Why on earth one would choose to call somebody else's ancestor as one's own? If that argument is accepted, then cant one similarly argue that the Arains have also falsely stolen clan names from the Jatts, Kamboj and Sainis too? This is a rank absurdity.

THe important issue here is that one's "Caste" may change (Kamboj may become Arain, Chheemba, Zubaire, Korosh; or a Rajput may become Jat, Arain, Julaha, Chheemba, Nai, Qureishi, Qutab-shahi or whatever as Ibbetson states in "The Punjab Castes"); ones "tribe" (collection of clan names) may change by admixture with other tribes/castes; BUT one's clan name is fundamental entity and it never changes. It stays put. Hence if one finds Manhas, Punwar, Chauhan, Gill, Thind, Bhutta, Kamboh etc clan names in several communities co-existing in time and space propinquity, then it is certain that there has been either a degradation or an upgradation (or branching-off) in the life of the clans and change in the social hierarchy due to adoption of different occupations which may have been necessitated mostly by the economical/political conditions faced by the clans. This fact can not be belied easily even if one wants to. Since Arain being a caste, if it shares its clan names with other nearby agricultural communities of Punjab including Jatts, Rajputs, Kamboj, Sainis, Awans etc, then this certainly demonstrates the inevitable historical reality that the caste Arain is is product from all of these land-owning communities and hence a "mixed body of castes". This is the point I wanted to convey in the article and it can t be refuted by simple denial notwithstanding quoting from J.M. Wikeley, Alison Shaw or anybody similar.

BTW, it is height of irony that on the one hand somebody brands Ibbestson and Rose as outdated authors and yet on the other hand uses their quotes in the articles!.

Satbir Singh (talk) 02:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, I've just made some important additions to the comments I originally included above (at least I consider them to be important). If after reading them you still want to dismiss what I have to say in relation to the references I have cited (especially when it comes to Alison Shaw), then so be it. Secondly, please don't make an issue of me supposedly giving you a lengthy lecture, when you have littered this discussion page with your views. Thirdly, in actual fact, you did nothing to remove the section concerning famous Arains. See for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arain&diff=284556031&oldid=284545061

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arain&diff=284559377&oldid=284556031

Fourthly, are you serious when you state, "Why on earth one would choose to call somebody else's ancestor as one's own?" Must I present you with the findings of field studies conducted in Pakistan which categorically state that in areas where, for example, Awans are the dominant caste, kammi groups, particularly those who have recently acquired a fair degree of wealth, will suddenly claim Awan status? The same holds true for other dominant groups dotted around the Punjab, and those sadly that are still forced into a life of servitude.

This reminds me of the saying, "Last year I was a Juhala, the next year a Sheikh and this year if the prices should rise, I shall be a Sayyed."

If I have chosen to retain Ibbetson and Rose's quotes in the articles, it is not because I originally inserted them (which I didn't), but because I simply can no longer be bothered to delete the rubbish that is included in the main article (except in the instances I have mentioned earlier).

Finally, as for the remainder of what you have to say, we will just have to agree to disagree. The only point I am willing to concede is that I went back on the statement I previously made, and am once again wasting my time discussing this topic with you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.180.25 (talk) 03:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, relax now and enjoy life. It is too short, tension is not good for heart, ok.

Satbir Singh (talk) 13:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto were RAJPUTS. Shoaib Akhtar is a GUJJAR. Wasim Akram is a JAT. Fazal Mahmood was of PATHAN descent. Ijaz Ahmed is of KASHMIRI descent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.93.174 (talk) 02:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Criticism

Much too long. 98% should be deleted. Filled with bias, propaganda and weasel words. Obviously someone writing this article doesn't really understand or believe in the standards of Wikipedia. Certain people simply lack academic decency. Shame... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.61.172.19 (talk) 11:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION IS THAT SATBIR SINGH, AS HAS BEEN AMPLY DEMONSTRATED, IS ACTUALLY GUILTY OF VANDALISING THIS ARTICLE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.191.124 (talk) 03:20, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

ARAINS ARE THE REAL MARTIAN RACE

here r some examples that shows how fit and what guds arains hav as martial race , mian salim ullah known as adina beg who was governer of punjab and he butchered sikhs was a arain from sheikhupura , captan aibak arain , zia-ul-haq was miltry dectaitor who ruled pak 11 years with iron although he hanged z a bhutto who made him cheif of staff only because bhutto and zia was from same arain caste , here is the story of another arain freedom fighter who made serious demage to british rulers .

The News : Saturday, December 15, 2007 However, one great freedom fighter from Punjab whose heroic struggle has not been given proper recognition is Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi. His direct descendant, Maulana Habibur Rahman Sani, who is currently the chief imam of the main Friday Mosque in Ludhiana, in east Punjab, provided me detailed information on him in an interview recorded on Jan 4, 2005, in the courtyard of the mosque.

Maulana Sani's grandfather, Maulana Habibur Rahman, was one of the founders of the Majlis-e-Ahrar, a movement of anti-imperialist nationalist Muslims, who returned to India after spending one day in Lahore in August 1947, arguing that thousands of Muslims remained in east Punjab and they should not be abandoned. That is how that family remained in Ludhiana.

My attention to Maulana Sani was drawn by Baldev Raj Verma, owner of Naseem Hosiery in Ludhiana, whose father, Hansraj, was on the famous Japanese ship, Komagata Maru, in 1914 chartered by Punjabis, mainly Sikhs, to get to Canada. They were refused entry. It resulted in the emergence of the Ghadar Party and the first anti-colonial struggle in early 20th century in Punjab.

Mr Verma informed me that a famous Muslim family of freedom fighters from Ludhiana still lived in the town centre and were in charge of the main mosque, where thousands of Muslims congregated every Friday to pray. Ludhiana is the major industrial city of east Punjab. Indeed workers from all over India come and work there, among them a very large numbers of Muslims from UP and Bihar.

Maulana Habibur Rahman Sani informed me that his family belonged to the Arain biradari (patrilineage). His great, great grandfather, Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi, was the first in Punjab to take up arms against the English East India Company in 1857. He collected a large fighting force, which included Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs, that drove the English out of not only Ludhiana but also Panipat. He then headed to Delhi with his men to support Bahadur Shah Zafar. He fell fighting along with thousands of others at Chandni Chowk in 1857.

In British records Ludhianvi is described as a fiery speaker who exercised considerable influence on the people in that region. Some reports incorrectly describe him as a Gujjar. In any event, the British deprived his family of their property and subjected them to other forms of persecution. The Arains in general were branded as a dangerous group, their lands were confiscated and they were excluded from recruitment in the army; hence their classification as a non-martial group.

However, his descendants continued to support revolutionary struggles and both the Ghadar Party and later Bhagat Singh's associates were aided by them. They also helped Subhash Chandra Bose cross Punjab safely into the North-West Frontier Province. The Tribune, Chandigarh, of Jan 7, 2001, carried a story on the anti-imperialist services of that family.

It is worth remembering that the British adopted similar harsh measures against the Bengalis and Biharis, and some tribes and castes from UP that took part in the Uprising of 1857. They were also declared unfit for military service. Therefore, excluding Arains from the army was consistent with British policy on rebellious tribes and castes.

However, in the ancient, Mughal and Sikh periods, Arains had held prominent positions, such as governors and army generals. Many gotras, or sub-clans, of the Arains bear names that indicate soldiering as an occupation. For example: Ghalar, Gahgeer and Goheer (ferocious horse of armoured corps), Gatku (fencer), Kavali (soldier patrolling while others rest), Basroo (observation post), Bahman (brave, uncontrollable or insurmountable), Bhaila (alms-keeper who walks with the commander when he is giving away alms after a victory), Daulay (those who got land in return for military services), Khatora (spy), Ramay (archers), Rattay (bloody, red, ferocious fighters), Ramday (red -eyed soldiers), Labanay (an army column equipped with batons), Jatalay (victors), Qutub Shahi: (soldiers or their offspring who accompanied Qutubuddin Aibak), Sappal (marksmen), Bahalwan (driver of a chariot), Mudh (logisticians supplying logistics and reinforcement to the army), Teerandaz (archers), Katarband (users of katar, a weapon used by ancient armies) and Bhutto (dwellers of high places).

It would be interesting if some filmmaker in Pakistan could depict the saga of Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi on the silver screen. It would be important to contact his family in Ludhiana for more details, but more importantly the script should remain faithful to the true legacy of that great man. He was by no means a religious fanatic, although he described his struggle against the British as jihad. He was a patriot who joined hands with all communities in the first major struggle against the colonial takeover of the subcontinent.

The writer is a visiting senior research fellow at the Institute of South Asian Studies (ISAS), —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.8 (talk) 11:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

ARAINS ARE THE REAL MARTIAL RACE

here is one of the example of that ludhyanvi was a arain freedom fighter that these bloody british historiyans also made gujjar only due to their dirty nature , arains are brave that always been in army in huge numbers like mian salim ullah known as adina beg , shah abdul qadir ludhyanvi , and the chief of army staff of pak that rule pak for 11 years with iron hand ,all this shows that wat guds arains hav , here is the story of ludhyanvi .However, one great freedom fighter from Punjab whose heroic struggle has not been given proper recognition is Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi. His direct descendant, Maulana Habibur Rahman Sani, who is currently the chief imam of the main Friday Mosque in Ludhiana, in east Punjab, provided me detailed information on him in an interview recorded on Jan 4, 2005, in the courtyard of the mosque.

Maulana Sani's grandfather, Maulana Habibur Rahman, was one of the founders of the Majlis-e-Ahrar, a movement of anti-imperialist nationalist Muslims, who returned to India after spending one day in Lahore in August 1947, arguing that thousands of Muslims remained in east Punjab and they should not be abandoned. That is how that family remained in Ludhiana.

My attention to Maulana Sani was drawn by Baldev Raj Verma, owner of Naseem Hosiery in Ludhiana, whose father, Hansraj, was on the famous Japanese ship, Komagata Maru, in 1914 chartered by Punjabis, mainly Sikhs, to get to Canada. They were refused entry. It resulted in the emergence of the Ghadar Party and the first anti-colonial struggle in early 20th century in Punjab.

Mr Verma informed me that a famous Muslim family of freedom fighters from Ludhiana still lived in the town centre and were in charge of the main mosque, where thousands of Muslims congregated every Friday to pray. Ludhiana is the major industrial city of east Punjab. Indeed workers from all over India come and work there, among them a very large numbers of Muslims from UP and Bihar.

Maulana Habibur Rahman Sani informed me that his family belonged to the Arain biradari (patrilineage). His great, great grandfather, Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi, was the first in Punjab to take up arms against the English East India Company in 1857. He collected a large fighting force, which included Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs, that drove the English out of not only Ludhiana but also Panipat. He then headed to Delhi with his men to support Bahadur Shah Zafar. He fell fighting along with thousands of others at Chandni Chowk in 1857.

In British records Ludhianvi is described as a fiery speaker who exercised considerable influence on the people in that region. Some reports incorrectly describe him as a Gujjar. In any event, the British deprived his family of their property and subjected them to other forms of persecution. The Arains in general were branded as a dangerous group, their lands were confiscated and they were excluded from recruitment in the army; hence their classification as a non-martial group.

However, his descendants continued to support revolutionary struggles and both the Ghadar Party and later Bhagat Singh's associates were aided by them. They also helped Subhash Chandra Bose cross Punjab safely into the North-West Frontier Province. The Tribune, Chandigarh, of Jan 7, 2001, carried a story on the anti-imperialist services of that family.

It is worth remembering that the British adopted similar harsh measures against the Bengalis and Biharis, and some tribes and castes from UP that took part in the Uprising of 1857. They were also declared unfit for military service. Therefore, excluding Arains from the army was consistent with British policy on rebellious tribes and castes.

However, in the ancient, Mughal and Sikh periods, Arains had held prominent positions, such as governors and army generals. Many gotras, or sub-clans, of the Arains bear names that indicate soldiering as an occupation. For example: Ghalar, Gahgeer and Goheer (ferocious horse of armoured corps), Gatku (fencer), Kavali (soldier patrolling while others rest), Basroo (observation post), Bahman (brave, uncontrollable or insurmountable), Bhaila (alms-keeper who walks with the commander when he is giving away alms after a victory), Daulay (those who got land in return for military services), Khatora (spy), Ramay (archers), Rattay (bloody, red, ferocious fighters), Ramday (red -eyed soldiers), Labanay (an army column equipped with batons), Jatalay (victors), Qutub Shahi: (soldiers or their offspring who accompanied Qutubuddin Aibak), Sappal (marksmen), Bahalwan (driver of a chariot), Mudh (logisticians supplying logistics and reinforcement to the army), Teerandaz (archers), Katarband (users of katar, a weapon used by ancient armies) and Bhutto (dwellers of high places). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.8 (talk) 11:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

RE: ARAINS BEING A SO-CALLED "MARTIAL RACE"

Okay, this is beginning to get ridiculous now. The information above that has been provided, in support of the contention that Arains are a "martial race" amounts to nothing of any substance whatsoever. Firstly, there are members of other communities that the British did not recognise as a martial race, who have attained the highest ranks in both the Indian and Pakistani armed forces. Secondly, the information presented above, is not only an entirely questionable and subjective take on this issue (that furthermore, is not supported by a range of credible and more importnatly, neutral, sources) it is highly flawed. For example, it has been proven that Bhuttos are not a sub-clan of the Arains, and one of the most glaring errors, is to categorise Qutubshahis as an Arain sub-clan; this is complete and utter nonsense, as the Qutubshahis are in fact, Awans (a fact recognised by all authorities on this subject), this particular clan being considered to be the most pre-eminent amonst that particular tribe - the name of this clan is also derived from the name of the putative ancestor that Awans claim patrilineal descent from, i.e. an individual who was actually called Qutub Shah (thus, the name of this clan is an eponym). Therefore, to try and link the name of this clan, to an individual named Qutub-ud-Din Aibak, is patently ridiculous and makes no sense whatsoever, but just demonstrates the desperate lengths to which members of the Arain tribe will go, in an attempt to justify the myth of an Arab origin (a claim that has been discredited on the basis of undenaible historical facts, and social factors, that have been discussed at length, and demonstrated through the use of a number of sources). It should also be noted that the claim that the Arains were never classified as a "martial race" by the British, due to a rebellion insitigated by members of this community, does not, in any way, stand up to intellectual scrutiny, simply because the British also fought TWO WARS against the Sikhs (which according to accounts, were very bloody affairs as well), due to which the Sikhs were forced to relinquish their kingdom in the Punjab - yet not only did the British permit and encourage Sikhs to enlist in their droves in the British Indian Army, and not only were the Sikhs classified as a "martial race", but the British also looked upon this community as being amongst the most prized recruits of all those it had categorised as "martial races." Anyway, why is there such desperation to try and even prove that the Arains deserved to be labelled a "martial race," when the whole notion of "martial races" is something that has come in for criticism by contemporary historians? As has been said before, please get rid of that chip on your shoulder, and just accept that for whatever reason (right or wrong), the British did not look upon the Arains as a martial race - period. Deal with it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.20.50 (talk) 22:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

WHO GIVES BRITISHES LICENCE TO MAKE OTHERS MARTIAL

i am not trying to change the minds of these britishes or u but i am telling u that arains hav all the guds of wat a martial tribe has , yadav tribe of india is also mentioned as non-martial ,yadavs are brave people and hav all guds of fighting ,do u know about yadavs and not tell me that they are rajputs because if it is in ur control u will make all the famous persons of the world rajput(rangars) , who gives the permission to these bloody britishes to make others martial or non-martial when they dont knows abt thier fathers , so stop making shit out here and dont opppse ur foolish ideas or thinkings to others on this fake site , sit amoung any islamic historiyan and ask from them the history of arains , i will accept thier single word wheather it support or not to arains ,i hav giv u the name of bhutto family leaders ,why r u avioding from this to verify from them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.147 (talk) 19:56, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

ASADULLAH BHUTTO (ameer of jamiat islami sindh and member os arain associ)

i u hav guds then verify from asadullah bhutto sahib (ameer of jamiat islami sindh and member of arain asociation karachi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.147 (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

TAUQEERA FATIMA BHUTTO SAHIBA (MNA,PPP)

u can also verfy from her that bhuttos are arain .she is also from bhutto family and a close relitive of benazir bhutto she will tell u and dont make arguments with ur fake knowledge , wat kind of proof is constracted then this , i hav paste two paragharaphs one abt pir pagara sahib that he said that bhutto arain hai, and other is about shah abdul qadir ludhyanvi these two paragharaphs r from famous internation news pappers and u r joking that it is not a constractive , than i think that wat all bulshit u r telling is only constractve while rest of the world is fraud —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.147 (talk) 20:21, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

NADEEM IQBAL BHUTTO (MPA,PPP,KARACHI)

u can also verfy from nadeem bhutto sahib ,if these proof are not enough then contact me i will giv u more , and if u hav a little bit of sense then u will know that wat bhuttos are , otherwise i can that (kay tera kaan chita hi way (ur crow is white),think like a man not donkey ,here is my ph no u can contact me 0345-6502001 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.147 (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

RE: USER 59.103.90.147

Where on earth do you get the nerve to hurl accusations of the sort you have, against me? Let me begin by re-iterating that what you present as “evidence” is of no substance whatsoever. The newspaper you mention, isn’t “world famous” as you would like to believe, and the article you quoted, contains (as I have pointed out before) a debatable and subjective take on the pertinent issues being discussed, that are solely the views of one particular individual, whose academic qualifications are open to question, and who does not present a single credible and neutral source in support of his contention. Moreover, if you are capable of reading and comprehending the English language (which you clearly struggle with, given your woeful spelling and grammar, though your idiocy of greater concern), you will have seen that what this particular author has to say, is entirely negated by the example of the Sikhs I presented (and what I have to say, is a well-documented, historical fact, i.e. if the Arains were discounted as a “martial race” because members of this community organised rebellions against the British at the time of the Indian Mutiny, then the Sikhs should have been precluded from military service and not categorised as a “martial race” on the basis that the British fought two wars against this community. However, the reality is, the British prized Sikh recruits, and looked upon them as being amongst the finest of what they termed the “martial races” Read this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sikh_War and this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Sikh_War and you shall hopefully be enlightened). Furthermore, I also demonstrated that the author of the article you quoted, is sorely mistaken, when he names Bhuttos and in particular, Qutubshahis, as being sub-clans of the Arain tribe – anyone with even a passing knowledge of the tribes and castes of the Punjab, would be incapable of making the mistake of claiming that the second of these groups is anything but an Awan clan (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1QmrSwFYe60C&printsec=frontcover&dq=castes+and+tribes+of+the+punjab&cd=1#v=onepage&q=qutbshahi&f=false ), and this just reinforces the point I made about the so-called evidence you presented, as being highly flawed and unreliable (and as stated earlier, it also underlines the desperate lengths members of the Arain community will go to, in order to propagate the myth of an Arab origin, to the extent that a so-called scholar, would refer to the most pre-eminent Awan clan of all, as being a sub-clan of the Arains, and then defying all logic, link the name of this clan – which is an eponym – with the name of Qutubuddin Aibak, and that too in connection to a laughable myth that Arains were originally soldiers who accompanied the Arab forces that invaded the Subcontinent). As for what you have you say about Pir Pagara, is it really so difficult for you to understand that this semi-literate individual is not an authority or specialist on this subject, and more importantly, what he has to say on this topic, has been disproven, and to be a mistake on his part? (Which isn’t surprising either, considering the hearsay the likes of you have created, that those like the aforementioned individual, readily believe). And exactly how old are you? Are really so immature, that you plead in the style of a child that I should get in touch with so-and-so who is known to you (allegedly), and who will support your ludicrous viewpoints? Why do I have to gain confirmation from any of the individuals you named, that the Bhuttos are anything but Rajputs, when Benazir Bhutto herself, categorically stated in her autobiography that she is descended from Rajputs, and her biographer and close friend, Shyam Bhatia went on record to state that Benazir took pride in her Rajput ancestry. Here, I’ll even reproduce the exact quote:

"But Pinky always took pride in her Rajput ancestry and said it was only during war that India and Pakistan hated each other. But in peace, they liked each other."

See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/rssarticleshow/msid-3061556,prtpage-1.cms

So forgive me, but you know what, I’d rather give more credence to what Benazir stated herself in two autobiographies, as well as the remarks of someone with the credentials of Shyam Bhatia (whose friendship with Benazir covered a period of more than thirty years, stretching back to their time at Oxford) rather than the individuals you name, and the fairytales you’ve concocted. Further proof of the Bhuttos being Rajputs can be found here:

"Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: the Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc."

http://ppiusindh.org/hyderabad-sindh-district-of-sindh-pakistan.html

And the Wikipedia article on Sindhi Rajputs, not only includes mention of the Bhuttos, but also a short outline of their origins:

"Bhutto

Perhaps the most famous of the Sindh Rajputs, they are a clan of the Bhatti Rajputs, and as such are Chandravanshi. They are found in Larkana District, in a cluster of villages such as Mirpur Bhutto and Salar Bhutto north of Larkana city."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_Rajputs

As for the issue of the “martial races” why do you have such a massive chip on your shoulder about this issue? Who cares whether or not the British considered Arains to be a “martial race,” when the theory itself has been discredited? And I am beginning to doubt your sanity as well now, when you ask inane questions such as who gave the British the right to classify particular castes and tribes as being “martial races.” Seriously, what planet do you live on? Regardless of whether or not the “martial race” theory was right or wrong, do you think the British needed to seek permission from others, in order to classify which groups should and shouldn’t be included in the “martial race” category? (And why did you feel the need to mention the Yadavs, when I previously stated that individuals belonging to communities not recognised as “martial races” by the British, have attained the highest ranks in the Indian and Pakistani armed forces?) Are you even more stupid than you have already proved, that you believe permission needs to be sought from others when formulating a theory, regardless of whether or not it carries weight? The British didn’t look upon the Arains as a “martial race” – get over it; it was their theory (so it is irrelevant if you believe the Arains deserve to be considered a “martial race”), and it is a theory that many contemporary historians consider to be untenable, so why are you getting so worked up over this matter? And since when did a theory, constitute fact?

The really interesting thing though, is that as much as you plead that the Arains meet all the credentials of a “martial race” and should have thus been recognised as such by the British, your tribe still doesn’t command any sort of significant presence in the Pakistani army:

“…Zia came from a community not heavily represented in the armed forces (the Arains from Punjab)…” (See http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:ruoBy5dqz1MJ:www.workmall.com/wfb2001/pakistan/pakistan_history_zulfiqar_ali_bhutto_and_a_new_constitutional_system.html+%22Zia+came+from+a+community+not+heavily+represented+in+the+armed+forces+(the+Arains+from+Punjab)&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk)

“Ethnically, General Zia was from a line of Arains, who do not have much presence in the army, unlike Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan who were Pathans. Pathans are well represented in Pakistan’s armed forces.” (See http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:TBifkQ5dKv8J:yespakistan.com/people/past-presidents.asp+%22Ethnically,+General+Zia+was+from+a+line+of+Arains,+who+do+not+have+much+presence+in+the+army,&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

And the following words are those of a Pakistani academic (not someone of Anglo-Saxon origin, a race you clearly despise):

"The army was an unusual career for an Arain youngster; the British had not regarded the community as one of India's martial races..." (Pakistan under Zia, 1977-1988, Shahid Javed Burki)

And how dare you accuse of anyone indulging in fraud or spreading misinformation! It is bad enough that the so-called evidence you produce is not only flimsy (to say the least), and does not stand up to scrutiny either, but you have also demonstrated that you are incapable of engaging in discussion and debate like a grown adult – so contrary to what you say, it is not me making a joke out of you, you have done a good enough job of that yourself – honestly, I ask you again, how old are you, and what is your level of education, that using the medium of this website to discuss the matter presently being debated, you've challenged me to phone you, and in the process, provided me with your number, in a public forum – do you realise the stupidity and potential consequences of your actions?

Who are you to speak of sense, when you quote Punjabi phrases that when translated into English, lose all meaning (not that your English makes much sense anyway. You can’t even prevent yourself from employing foul, abusive language in order to make your ridiculous assertions either, so you’ve proven you lack class as well). Who are you to speak to me about what constitutes academic scholarship or proper history, when you are so narrow-minded, you claim to only value the writings of Muslim historians? And when I have already stressed that there are historians belonging to Muslim backgrounds, who reject the relatively recent innovation of the Arain tribe ascribing Arab origins to itself – a phenomenon that incidentally occurred around the time the Arains came to wield influence amongst the Punjabi Muslim community as a result of consolidating its position in the legal profession during the latter stages of British rule in India (also coinciding with the formation of various Arain associations), something that has been remarked upon by expert commentators – your notions amount to nothing. How on earth can you say I am spreading “shit” on this discussion page, or that my ideas are foolish, when you take into account your rants and ramblings? Have you no shame? At least I have studied the history of the region I am discussing, at university, and have presented evidence that is credible, and made points that are cogent. You on the other hand, have indulged us all in myths, fairytales, half-truths, and have not presented even a shred of evidence that deserves to be considered seriously (thus, what you term as the “rest of the world” actually, in the main, considers what I have to say on this matter, to be consistent with the truth, or as close to the truth it is possible to get). You talk about fake knowledge, the same person who twice insisted Waqar Younis is an Arain on the basis that the area he hails from in South Punjab, is an Arain stronghold (which in itself is open to question), and then was shown up to be the idiot that he is, when I proved beyond doubt that Waqar is in fact, a Maitla Jat. You find it surprising that your contributions have been branded non-constructive? Are you serious? Consider the following: your paranoia regarding British historians and anthropologists being so comical, that you bring into question their parentage, the irony being as I pointed out, it was members of the Arain community itself that alluded to their Hindu origins, with the British simply, and accordingly, recording this when census records for the Punjab were compiled. Or did the following on the main page vis-a-vis this article, escape your attention?

“...the Arains of the Ghaggar valley say they were Rajputs living on the Panjnad near Multan...”

“The Sutlej Arains in Sirsa say they are, like the Arains of Lahore and Montgomery, connected by orign with the Hindu Kambohs.”

“... in Jullundur the Arains say they came from Sirsa, Rania, and Delhi and claim descent from Rai Jaj (grandson of Lau, founder of Lahore), who ruled Sirsa: that they were converted in the 12th century and migrated to the Jullundar Doab about 300 years ago. But the Bhuttas claim descent from Raja Bhutta, fifth in descent from Raja Karn and say they were forcibly converted even earlier - by Mahmud of Ghazni – and driven from Uch.”

The above is the most damming evidence of all, against any claims currently made by the Arain community to Arab descent. And in case I need to point it out to you again, the above highlights that your ancestors during the nineteenth century, were readily admitting to their Hindu origins – again, read the above.

Knowing what a paranoid and disingenuous fool you are, you’re going to claim that this is all in keeping with a conspiracy against your community, cooked up by the British – so, please do tell me what the reasons for this were, considering that other more rebellious communities (because this is going to be your first line of your cock-eyed argument) did not suffer a similar fate?

Unless you are truly are medically a moron (which I am beginning to believe is the case), how can you fail to see that your edits are non-constructive? Firstly, you accuse me of having an agenda that revolves around the promotion of Rajput tribes, when all I did was counter the disgusting filth you came out with regarding this community, and cited some facts regarding the code of chivalry it has traditionally adhered to, that also revolves around ancient martial traditions (as it is, I am not a Rajput anyway). And did it escape your attention that I also mentioned Pathans, Sikhs and Awans when exposing your stupidity in falsely asserting that the Rajputs only came to be classified as a “martial race” because, according to you, they “pimped” out their womenfolk to the Mughals, and later, the British? I asked you what about the three aforementioned groups, all of which were also categorised as “martial races” by the British? Did they also pimp their women? (You are beyond immature and stupid, aren’t you?). And you are such a hypocrite, that you complain about perceived slights against your community, yet indulge in the most offensive tirades against other communities (particularly those that are non-Muslim). Your line of reasoning is so skewered that you claim because my viewpoint differs from yours (as well as the fact I have exposed you for the ill-educated, paranoid, xenophobic fantasist you are), I must be of non-Pakistani origin, and have never visited Pakistan (both points being patently false). And above all, you are so deluded, you actually believe that there are communities residing in the Subcontinent, that are of “pure” Muslim blood (such a notion in itself being nonsensical), when I have proven that this is not only a fallacy, but impossible, even if one can locate communities that have been resident in the Subcontinent for a number of centuries and genuinely are able to trace their bloodlines to the Middle East, as the process of inter-marriage with the indigenous population is inevitable. More than this, when expressing your delusions, you have also exposed yourself as a bigot, by referring to Hindus and Sikhs as having “bad blood” (ironic considering your ancestors were Hindus, and this also applies to those claiming to be Sayyids etc, for reasons I have just mentioned), therefore, you simply are not an individual who can be taken seriously, and should desist from making anymore preposterous contributions as you are an embarrassment to your community as well. But knowing you, I would not be surprised if you are shameless enough to attempt to offer a retort to what I have to say, regurgitating the same claptrap you’ve forced others to endure. In short, you are certifiably an idiot.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.176.138 (talk) 05:39, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

BHUTTOS ARE 100% ARAINS

write complete sentence that benazir in bio graphy that " bhuttos are proberly from hindu rajput or from arab(arain) soldiers that conquer the sub-continent with Mohammad bin qasim ". here r some famous politicians of bhutto family u can verify from that bhuttos are arains . Asadullah Bhutto (ameer of jamiat islami sindh and member of arain association karachi ) , Tauqeera Fatima Bhutto sahiba(mna,ppp,nawabshah),Nadeem Iqbal Bhutto (mpa,ppp,karachi). i hav verify from them that bhuttos are arains. so dont bark here with ur fake knowledge , one more thing that i am arain from gujranwala punjab and i dont met with single arain in my whole life who claims to b rajput decent , alin shah and other english historiyan are the biggest mother fuckers who r reliating arains with rajputs pimps , these elglish histotiyans might dont know thier real fathers and making bulshit out here , arains are not clasified as martial race because they are not pimps like rajput(ranghars ), who lay down thiergirls firt under britishes and then under mughals , i think u people have listen abt rajputani joda bha who lay down under akber moughal by rajput pimps only to gain lands and to survive , thats the way rajputs beacam martial race and thanks god arains are not, i can say abt these rajputs that they are matial pimps , all muslims historiyan has verified that syeds,arains,awans,balochs,abbasis,alvis hav arab roots ,do u hav doubt abt famous arain , i bet u that bhutttos and wasim akram are 100% arains but i dont know abt fazil moh , wasim akram,waqar younus,and buttos are 100% arains , u r right in one thing that shoaib akhter is gujjar from rawalpinpindi while wasim akram is arain from lahore and waqar is also arain from burewala , i want to clerify that arains hav nothing to do with rajputs , juts,gujjars, kambohs . do try to mix bad blood of hindu rajputs and sikh jutts in pur muslim arains , —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.34 (talk) 21:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

BHUTTOS ARE NOT ARAINS

Firstly, the user above has proved his/her ignorance beyond all doubt, through the use of such disgusting language. Secondly, there is not a single line in either of Benazir Bhutto’s autobiographies, where she makes any reference whatsoever to her ancestors being descended from Arains – however, plenty of sources have been furnished through this discussion page, that not only directly quote her making reference to her Rajput roots, but also others close to her, who underline the pride she took in her Rajput lineage (and your assertion that any reference made to soldiers accompanying the forces of Muhammad bin Qasim, is an oblique reference to the Arain tribe, is beyond foolish). Thirdly, the Bhuttos are widely recognised as a well-established Sindhi Rajput tribe, which traces its origins to the Bhatti Rajputs; thus for you to claim that others are spreading lies vis-a-vis this topic, is quite frankly, farcical. Fourthly, before launching your foul-mouthed tirade against what you term as “English historians,” consider the fact that it wasn’t those British historians, anthropologists etc (who have earned your ire, and whose parentage you idiotically question) that concocted some grand fraud regarding the Arains not being of Arab origin, but the Arain community itself, during the nineteenth century for example, that claimed to be descended from a variety of Hindu groups, and as such, note was made of this (a fact borne out by census records compiled during the era of the British Raj. In fact, these census records also point to Hindu and Sikh sections of the Arain tribe, further exposing the folly of attempting to assign an Arab origin to this community). Fifthly, your claims regarding why the Arains were not classified as a “martial race” are not only extremely immature and stupid (not to mention, comically paranoid), but highly offensive to those of Rajput origin, a community that even before the advent of Mughal or British rule in the Subcontinent, was famed for its martial traditions, and proudly adhering to a code that (amongst other virtues) stressed chivalry and courage. And what about non-Rajput communities such as the Pathans, Sikhs, and Awans, who were also recognised as “martial races” by the British? Did they too “pimp” out their womenfolk to the British, in order to be categorised as such? (I trust I have exposed your idiocy in this regard). Sixthly, how on earth can you make blanket statements about the communities you mention, being recognised by all Muslim historians as being of Arab origin? If you have actually read extensively on the history of the Sayyids, Awans etc, you will discover that there are a number of historians of Muslim origin, who question the claim of these groups to Arab descent. Not only this, but the same historians also highlight that the claim of the Arain community to Arab origins, is a relatively recent innovation, that came about when a significant number of those belonging to this community, made great strides in areas such the legal profession during the latter stages of British rule in India (i.e. the twentieth century), and thus started to gain some influence amongst the Punjabi Muslim community – however for the reasons already mentioned, these claims have never been taken seriously. Moreover, though there has always been debate surrounding the claim to Arab origin by tribes such as the Sayyids, Awans etc, these groups, stretching back to the time census records were first compiled in the regions they predominate, have always been recognised as being exclusively Muslim, something that does not apply to the Arain community (and hence is the major stumbling block to overcome for members of this community, when attempting to claim an Arab origin). Seventhly, you say you don’t know about the origins of Fazal Mahmood – well, for your information, he was a Punjabi Pathan. As for Wasim Akram, his origins have long been debated on the Net. However, you are sorely mistaken regarding Waqar Younis – he actually happens to be a Maitla Jat from Burewala (this further underlines you have no clue what you’re talking about). Lastly, that you have made some absurd claims is one thing, but when you talk about Hindus and Sikhs having bad blood, you also expose yourself as a bigot, which is why it is all the more difficult to take you seriously. And I hate to burst your bubble, but even those whose belong to Muslim families that have long been settled in the Subcontinent, and can genuinely trace their origins to the Middle East, have a dose of Hindu blood coursing through their veins, because the process of inter-marriage with indigenous communities is an inevitable and natural process that takes place over a period of centuries, amongst settler communities.

I suggest you get rid of the chip on your shoulder, and in future, desist, from producing such a non-constructive, nonsensical and childish rant that is littered with lies.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.237.251 (talk) 04:04, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

ARAINS ARE THE REAL MARTIAL RACE

there is list of arains which shows that what guds arain hav for miltry purposes like adina beg , captan aibak arain ,gernal zia-ul-haq which ruled pak the most for 11 years with iron hansds ,that shows the braveness and couagre of arains , one thing which is not in arains is that they are not pimps like rajputs or sikh jutts , joda bhai a rajputni was laid down under moughals by rajputs only to gain lands and for thier lifes , thats real rajput the pimps —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.8 (talk) 11:23, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

PROOF OF THAT BHUTTOS ARE ARAINS

PML-F leader says Musharraf will decide on grand anti-PPP alliance

By Qazi Asif

KARACHI: Despite their differences, Pir Pagaro of the Pakistan Muslim League-Functional (PML-F) has agreed to form an alliance with PML-Quaid President Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, but only to join ranks against the Pakistan People’s Party (PPP).

Prior to PPP Chairwoman Benazir Bhutto’s return, Pagaro had stood firm on not forming any sort of alliance with Shujaat’s party. However, on Saturday, the 80-year-old politician declared an alliance against the PPP.

Musharraf to decide: “A decision on a grand alliance against the PPP will be taken by President General Pervez Musharraf,” Pagaro told reporters after a meeting with Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz and Shujaat at Kingri House, also attended by Sindh Chief Minister Arbab Ghulam Rahim and Sindh Governor Dr Ishratul Ibad. “(Musharraf) should learn a lesson from the past and select better comrades to contest against the PPP,” he added.

The PML-F said Shujaat was a “rough stone”, which would be “polished into a hero”.

PM Aziz said that Pagaro’s perceptions and predictions about the country’s future remained important. “This meeting with Pir Pagaro was very useful because Chaudhry Shujaat was also present,” the prime minister said. “We will jointly contest the elections.” Shujaat told reporters that even though he was the president of the PML-Q, he was also an “ordinary” worker. “The real leader of the PML is Pir Pagaro.”

“We will give the PPP a tough time in Punjab,” Shujaat said. “We will hold free and fair elections and the PPP will be washed out of the province,” he added.

Pagaro said he did not know who was involved in the October 18 bomb blasts in Bhutto’s rally.

When Aziz, Shujaat, Rahim and Ibad reached Kingri House at 3.30pm on Saturday, Pir Pagaro turned towards reporters and said, “Ab me ek shararat kar raha hoon [I’m about to pull a trick].” He then turned the mouth of a toy cannon on his table towards Chaudhry Shujaat, whereupon Shujaat replied, “Agar ye pyar say hay tau theek hay, aur mujhe khushi hay [if it is with love, then it’s alright and I’m happy about it].” Arbab Rahim then said, “Ab ye People’s Party ki taraf hona chahiyay (now the toy cannon should be pointed towards the PPP).”

Pir Pagaro said, “Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Arain hay, aur wo Punjab say hay (ZA Bhutto was from the Arain caste and that is from Punjab).”

Arbab Rahim replied, “Haan lekin, Chaudhry Jatt hain, or Araiyon se unki banti nahi (yes, but Chaudhry Shujaat is a Jatt and they never get along with Arains). These are the words of great spirtual leader of sindh that surely carries weight whereas ur knowledge is fake.I do not know who r u but i am sure abt u that u r the biggest bulshit out here . i think that ur not a pakistani or muslims . and i think that u hav never visit pakistan . pir pagara is even biggest name in sindh even then the bhuttos in sindh and is forefathers were famous for thier struggle against britishes ,if u hav any any approch or source to contact him .u can verify from them that bhuttos are arain or not , i hav given u the names of famous politicians of bhuttos family who r also relitives of zulafqar ali bhutto , Asadullah Bhutto (ameer of jamiat islami sindh and member of arain association karachi ), Tauqeera Fatima Bhutto sahiba (mna,ppp,nawabshah), Nadeem Iqbal Bhutto (mpa,ppp,karachi ), get the ph no of these persons from web site of provincial assemble of sindh and from national assemble of pak , they will tell u the complete history of bhuttos completely ,now i hav given u proof of that bhuttos are arains i hav verified from above all and from others , i hope that now u will not bark against wrong tree ,

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.199 (talk) 10:23, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

RE: PROOF THAT BHUTTOS ARE ARAINS

Listen, if you don't learn to conduct yourself, with class, grace, and some semblance of dignity, I will have no hesitation in reporting you for abuse (your previous foul-mouted tirade is for all to see, above). Your approach is not only non-constructive, but also flouts Wiki regulations. For your information, not only am I of Pakistani origin, and not only have I visited Pakistan, I have also studied the history and politics of the region on an in-depth basis, at university. Your mode of expression on the other hand, along with your woeful grammar, speaks volumes about your level of education. And whereas I have presented credible sources, and undeniable facts to back up each of the points I've made, you continue to peddle the same childish nonsense. I am not going to regurgitate all that I have covered previously, save to say that Pir Pagaro's words have been disporoved before. Moreover, I am also going to expose you for the idiot you truly are, while in the process highlighting just how ironic it is that you accuse others of spreading misinformation, when I deal with the topic of Waqar Younis (below), an individual I already proved is not an Arain, yet you persist with this ludicrous claim (in keeping with your approach to this subject). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.20.50 (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

WASIM AND WAQAR ARE ALSO ARAINS

i add to ur pover knowledge that wasim is arain from lahore ,his brother mian naeem akram is a famous businessman of lah and member of arain association lah, wasim akram also hav attend many arain convensions while waqar is arain from burewala the whole chak of waqar is of arains including waqar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.8 (talk) 10:45, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

RE: WASIM AND WAQAR

It has already been pointed out that Wasim Akram's tribal affiliations are a matter of much debate on the Net, but when it comes to Waqar Younis, this individual is irrefutably a JatT (something I have already pointed out), i.e. he is an Arain, as you persist in claiming. Firstly, please refer to his profile on Cricinfo: ARAIN IS ALSO CALLED AS JATTS.....

http://www.cricinfo.com/pakistan/content/player/43543.html

Do you notice that his surname is "Maitla?" Now refer to the Wiki article about Maitlas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitla

Please note that the article categorically states that the Maitlas are a sub-clan of Jats. So quite frankly, it makes no difference if Burewala is or isn't a stronghold of the Arains, the fact is, Waqar Younis is not a member of your tribe. Now give it up, because you already have very little credibility left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.20.50 (talk) 23:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

ARAIN IS A MIXED BODY OF VARIOUS LAND_OWNING/AGRICULTURAL CASTES

According to Brahmanical artificial caste system (Manusmriti), a high caste could degrade to lower status when it neglects certain prescribed codes of conducts or else it takes to the occupations of a lower classes/varnas. There are numerous ancient and comparatively recent instances in Hindu society where a Kshatriya tribe as whole became Vaishya or Sudra when it annoyed the priestly class of the Hindu society or else adopted the profession not compatible with its own prescribed status on account of the misfortune days during its existence. Thus, Manusmriti (Hindu Law book X.43-44) says that the Kshatriya tribes of the Sakas, Kambojas, Yavanas, Pahlavas, Paradas etc were originally noble Ksatriyas but became degraded due to trespassing brahmanical social/ritual codes or else due to adoptions of occupation of the Vaishyas/Sudras. That the Kamboj/Jats (Sakas) etc who are numerously attested as Kshatriyas of highest order in Panini’s Ashtadhyayi (4.1.168-75), Mahabharata, Kautiliya’s Arthashastra, Harivamsa and numerous Puranas of the Hindus culture when they combined the profession of Ksatryas with agriculture/cattle culture/trade around the time of king Chandragupta Maurya, they lost their original Ksatriya status and became degraded Ksatriyas, Vaishuyas or Sudras etc. It is remarkable that Hindu text "Harivamsa" attests the Sakas, Kambojas, Yahanas, Pahlavas, Paradas as Kshatriya-Pungava i.e the foremost among the Kshatriyas.

COMMENT: We are informed by numerous ancient Sanskrit texts like Ashtadhyayi of Panini (Ashtadhyayi IV.1.168-175); Manusmriti( X.43-44);, Mahabharata (02.5.18-19; Mahabharata 13.33.20-21. Cf also: Mahabharata 13.35.17-18); Kautiliya’s Arthashastra (11.1.1-4); Harivamsa (Harivamsa, 14.17.); Vayu Purana (88.127-43); Brahmanda Purana (3.41.36) and several other ancient authorites that the ancestors of the modern Kambojs/Kambohs, Jats in ancient times, were established in the Kshatriya-Dharama as a warriors and a rulers (See: Foreign Elements in Ancient Indian Society, 2nd Century BC to 7th Century AD, 1978, p 125, Uma Prasad Thapliyal - India Civilization; See also: Sabha Parava, Udyoga Parva, Bhishma Parva, Drona Parva, Karna Parva, Shalya Parva sections of the Mahabharata). Their rulers have been styled Rajaniyas as well as Kshatriyas in the ancient texts. While the term Rajput is only a recent phenomenon and became popular only after 9th century AD, the Kshatriya designation on the other hand goes deep into remote antiquity and the ancestors of the Kambojs/Kambohs and Jats were undoubtedly included in the privileged Kshatriya list as attested by afore-said ancient references. And notably as A. A. Macdonnel and A. B. Keith have also observed: "the (ancient) term Kshatriya retains a shade of superiority over Rajput" (Vedic Index, II, p 218, Arthur Anthony Macdonell, Arthur Berriedale Keith; Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province‎, Vol III, 1882, p 272, fn 2, H. A. Rose, Denzil Ibbestson, Sir Edward Maclagan).

The process of degradation still continues impartibly.

FEW ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLES

• The Tarkhans, Lohars and Nais of Sirsa are known to have been Rajputs or Jats who within quite recent times have taken to the hereditary occupations of these castes and thus got degraded to a lower status (See: Punjab Castes, 1974 edition, p 8, D enzil Ibbetson).

• Some of the Chauhasns of Karnal whose forefathers were Rajputs have taken to weaving and become Julahas Sheikhs (See: Punjab Castes, 1974 edition, p 8, D enzil Ibbetson).

• In recent times, Sahansara who were admitted a Rajput tribe till only a few generations ago when the took to growing vegetable lost their Rajput status and fell to Arain status and ranked with Arains (See: Punjab Castes, 1974 edition, p 8, D enzil Ibbetson).

• The Basket makes of Ferozepur, Multan and Jallundhur who were Punwar (Pawar Rajputs a century ago) when taken to occupation of rope-makers and basket-makesrs got degraded to lower Sudra status.

There are Kumhars who are Bhattis, Chandels, Chauhans, Gore/Gauri, Janjuas,Sattis; There are Julahas who are Bhattis, Khokhars, Janjuas, Awans, Chauhans; there are some Malis/Maliars who are Chohans, Janjuas, Awans, Khokhars, BHattis, Surajbansi; there are Nais who are Bhutta, Sidhu, Bhatti, Goyal, Chandel, Gore/Gori, Lakhi; there are Jheewars who are Bhatti, Minhas, Khokhars; there are Rathod Rajputs given to Shorgarhia occupations; there are Chamars who are Bhattis, Chauhans, Bains, Sindhu, Chandors; there are Chauhan vanjaras Rajputs who roam village to village and deal in scraps; there are Chheembas (who are given to tailoring) who are Khokhars, Bhattis, Kambohs….and …all of these real-life examples speaks of the former Rajput/Ksatriya status of these clans/tribal groups but then a degradation occurred to lower status on account of their adoption of an occupation incompatible with their former status. This all occurred imperceptibly and over the time. Janjuas are now found among the Telis, Lohars, Tarkhans, Maiars, and even the Musallis (Muhanadan Chuharas): and the Ghumman, Ganjial, Bhakrial, Nathial, Bath and Basoya and others Jats are of Janjua descent (Glossary , Rose, Vol II, p 354).

These are some instances of clans falling to lower castes.. there are also instances that a land owning class can upgrade itself. A branch of Wattus Rajputs of Satluj after peculiar affecting sanctity became Bodlas and now they deny their Rajput status and claim them as Qureishi. Some Kharrals of Bahawalpur who began to affect peculiar holiness now deny their connections with other Kharrals and soon, they woukld start claiming Arab descent. A section of Kambohs of Uttar Pradesh who were were the ruling elites during Lodhi/Pathan/Mughal rules now deny their Kamboj Ksatriya roots and claim Arab descent from Zubair and hence call them Zubaires.

So the traffic is open both ways..which is too hard to be understood by the fanatic and stolidsminds.

The caste position in north-west Indian subcontinent esp. Punjab is based primarily on occupation and given that the occupation is that most respectable of all occupations — the owning and cultivation of land upon political position (Punjab Castes, 1974, p 10, D Ibbetson).

A tribe which acquires political independence in one part of the country and becomes owner of the land where it enjoyed a high social position in the ranks of caste, which is denied to it in tracts where it occupies a subordinate or inferior position or owns lesser land. This may be indigestible but is true.

ON ARAIN ISSUE

I gave just one real-life instance where one former Rajput clan became Arain after it started resorting to vegetable growing occupation in Hoshiarpur during the bad days of its existences. This instance also amply illustrates that the sections of the Arains, as they themselves claim in their own traditions, do have former status as Rajputs. There are many clan names found among the Arains like Bhatti, Janjua, Bhutta, Chandor, Khokhar, Joiya, Tarar, (Solar Rajput), Nain, Bhaddu (Rajput trie of Deccan) etc, which bear convincing signatures to their partial descent of former Rajputs not withstanding the cynical racial-minded fanatics over this page. Quoting Mr Purser, Mr Denzil Ibbestson writes about the Arains of Montogomery as follows: The Arains of Montogomery know nothing about their origin. They claim Surajbansi Rajput descent and have come to this district from Delhi part of the country. They are usually SUPPOSED to be Mohammadan Kambohs and since the latter undoubtedly came from west so it is possible that they did too…. Their chief divisions are Gahlan, Chandor, Chachar, Sindhu and Barar (See: Punjab Castes, 1974, p 143, Denzil Ibbetson).

IMPORTANT COMMENTS FOLLOW

The above speculations of Denzil Ibbetson and Mr Purser about Kamboh-Arain connections are obviously highly flawed and erroneous. First and foremost important thing to note here is that all the chief divisions (the clan names) of the Arains which Mr Ibbetson has mentioned i.e. Gahlan, Chandor, Chachar, Sindhu and Barar etc undoubtedly belong to the Jatt caste and not to the Kamboj (except Barar which is very minor Kamboh got but a huge Jat clan name). Secondly, Mr Ibbetson speculates, contrary to actual facts, that the Arains of Montogomery (who according to their own claim had came from Delhi) and thus forcibly makes them as having come from the west like the Kamboh and hence make them and the Kambohs as affined people..... This is very flawed and unscholarly argument and flimsy speculation. Denzil Ibbetson for some unknown reasons, does not take into view the major Arain clan names which all belong to the Jat caste (and not to Kambohs) and onssidely or hastily makes a bold but erroneous statement that the Kambohs and Arains may be related. For reference see: Gahlan/Gehlan/Gelan (Glossary Rose p 282, Vol II), Chandar/Chandor/Chaddar (Glossary Rose 145, 152) , Chachar (Glossary, Rose, p p 145, Vol II); Sindhu (Glossary, Rose, Vol III, p 423), and Barar (Glossary, Rose, p 64-65, Vol II). Besides these divisions, the Jatts and Arains share over FIFTY (50) more clan names. Strikingly enough, even name Rain (Arain) is found as one of one tribe name of the Jatts in Jind (See Glossary, Rose, p 271, Vol III). This shows that there is strong connection between the Jats and Arains which has not been considered for some reasons. And is possible that from the Jat tribal name Rain/Arain, the Arain caste may have started and the Jats may actually have formed the nucleus of the Arain Caste. According to Rose, Gaure, Hande (Handa) and Momi gots of the Kamboh are also found among the Arains. On page 119 of his book titled: The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, 1896, William Crooke, has affirmed that none of the 52 important clan-names of the Kamboh (Kamboj) of Punjab contain any Arain clan names. The three clan names i.e Gore/Gaure, Momi and the Hande/Handa are the only important common clans found among the Arain as well as the Kamboh. But Hande orHanda is also a clan name among the Khatris of Punjab and Gaure/Gore/Gore is caln name found among the Rajputs. Wiiliam crooke also makes the observation that the Kambohs deny any relation with the Arains (See: The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, 1896 p 119). And this has ever been persistently denied by the Kamboh/Kamboj. But undoubtedly the Kamboh and Arain share some 20-25 MOOR clan names as compared to about 60 caln names shared by Jats and Arains. Further, the Arains share over 20-25 clan names with other Rajput castes of Punjab like Bhatti, Janjua, Bhutta, Chandor, Khokhar, Joiya, Tarar, (Solar Rajput), Nain, Bhaddu (Rajput tribe of Deccan) etc and most of them undoubtedly being major clan Rajput names. And lastly the Arains share even less clan names with the Saini and Awans (See This Talk page, further down).

The above discussion indisputably establishes that the Arains are a mixed body of castes as Mr Steed man has also remarked: "Arain, Rain, Baghban, Mali and Maliar are in Jhang and Rawalpindi a very mixed body". Tee same statement is true for rest of the Arains all over Punjab. Caste Arain undoubtedly contains elements from the Jatts, Rajputs, Kamboh, and to a lesser extent Sainis, Awans and other minor land owing/cultivating castes of the north-west. The best explanation for this therefore is that the farmers from these various tribes which over the time in the past became unfortunate enough and lost lands or otherwise were unable to find better resources for their subsistence as Ksatriyas/or major farmers, had to switch to small-scale farming like vegetable growing to maintain their subsistence. The examples cited in case of the Sahansara Rajput tribe above finally clenches the point. In 1880 census, the Mailar of Rawalpind division for the most part returned their clan names as Janjua, Qurab-Shahi (Awan), Khokhar, and Bhatti etc, though some of them gave what are apparently true Arain clans such as Wahands (See Punjab Castes, 1974, p 143, Denzil Ibbetson). The above list undoutedly contains Rajput clan names which only further reinforces the Sahansara case of Hoshiarpur.

That is enough for the time I hope.

Satbir Singh (talk) 14:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

ARTICLE "ARAIN" BEING VANDALISED UNABATED BY IP ADDRESS 78.149.248.23

The Arain, are an agricultural caste settled mainly in the Punjab (India and Pakistan), with significant numbers also in the Sindh (Pakistan). They are chiefly associated with farming, traditionally being small landowners or zamindars. In pre-Partition India, the term Arain was applied in two senses viz: in eastern Punjab the term denoted true caste Arain; in western/south-western parts of the Punjab Province excepting on the Satluj, term Arain was used for any small scale farmer engaged in vegetable-growing or market gardening (be he a Jat, Saini, Kamboj, Lubana or even Rajput etc) and was precisely synonymous with Mali, Maliar, Baghban and even Jat . The Maliars of Rawalpindi division have their clan names like Janjua, Qutab-Shahi (Awan), Khokhar, Bhatti etc, some of them being Rajput and Jat clan names . As a matter of fact, Arain, Rain, Baghban, Mali and Maliar in Jhang and Rawalpindi are a mixed body of castes and the name denotes occupation rather than a true caste... .

Origin

Many of the Arains of Punjab claim descent from Rai Jaj, the grandson of Lava, the founder of Lahore. Jaj was ruler of Sarsa territory and on that account was called a Rae; and his descendants became known as Rain, hence Arain .......the Jalandhar Arains claim descent from Rai Bhuta, fifth in descent from Raja Karan (q.v.), and were settled in Uch (in Multan) . Bhutta is one of the important clan of the Arains which is also shared by Rajputs and the Jatts . Bhutto is another variant of Bhutta. The Arains of Sahiwal point out that they were Surajbansi Rajputs, originally settled around Delhi . Arains of Ghaggar valley are also said to have been formerly Rajputs living on the Panjnad near Multan . The Arains of Hissar also claim Rajput descent .

Some Arains also claim Aryan descent from the ancient Iranians . A large section of people in Saraswati river basin, in both India and Pakistan, still call themselves Aryans. Some say that the Arain are the descendants of the nomadic Aryans who had invaded North India around 1500 BCE. Some people of Pakistan like to believe that the Arain were the Iranian tribal people with agriculture and sheep rearing profession who came to and settled in North India. They derive term Arain from Arya => Aryan => Arayan = Arain. Numerous Punjabis, both in India and Pakistan, claim descent from the Indo-Iranian Aryans. Ex-President of Pakistan Zia-ul-Haq and prime minister Mr. Bhutto who was executed by this president are said to belong to Arain tribe.

On Arain connections with Kamboj/Kamboh?

Some writers like Ahmed Abdulla of Pakistan and Syed Abdul Quddus of India etc have distorted Rai Jaj of Mr Purser to Rai Chajju and, have also connected him erroneously to Ujjain in Malwa, rather than the Sarsa of the Arain traditions . Further, both these writers have also erroneously related Rai Chajju (Rai Jaj of Mr Purser) to Raja Karan, the supposed ancestor of the Kambohs/Kambojs of Jalandhar (Punjab) , but curiously enough, they have not furnished any evidence to prove the relationship between Raja Karan and Rae Jaj ( or Rai Chajju?). In reality, there is no connection whatsover between the Kamboj and Arain except the fact that both people are said to have come from west and are of equal agricultural repute [1]. The alleged connection between the Kamboj and Arain is based on the common occupation (rather than any common ancestry) in Multan in the south-western parts of Punjab Province where the term Arain is said to be synonymous with market gardening . A small fraction of the Kamboj/Kamboh farmers of Multan or near-about area who had small land holdings during pre-partition period were collectively and indiscriminately dubbed as Arain because of their occupation in common with the Arains. Precisely, similar had also been the case with small farmers from the Jat, Rajput and other communities in Multan, Jhang, Jhelum and and Rawalpindi. Thus the Maliars of Rawalpindi division have their clan names like Janjua, Qutab-Shahi (Awan), Khokhar, Bhatti etc, some of them are obviously Rajput and Jat clan names . It is notable that the Kamboj/Kamboh of Punjab mostly engaged themselves in general-farming rather than market gardening .

See article: Kamboj

Social ranking

There are four or five main rankings (not sub-castes) which refer to the wealth held by the Arain namely Mian, Malik,Chaudery and Mehar or Mahar. The rankings among Arain are not birthrights (such as those among other castes) and one can freely ascend/descend according to changes in personal wealth. Many gotras, or sub-clans, of the Arains bear names that indicate soldiering as an occupation. For example: Ghalar, Gahgeer and Goheer (ferocious horse of armoured corps), Gatku (fencer), Kavali (soldier patrolling while others rest), Basroo (observation post), Bahman (brave, uncontrollable or insurmountable), Bhaila (alms-keeper who walks with the commander when he is giving away alms after a victory), Daulay (those who got land in return for military services), Khatora (spy), Ramay (archers), Rattay (bloody, red, ferocious fighters), Ramday (red -eyed soldiers), Labanay (an army column equipped with batons), Jatalay (victors), Sappal (marksmen), Bahalwan (driver of a chariot), Mudh (logisticians supplying logistics and reinforcement to the army), Teerandaz (archers), Katarband (users of katar, a weapon used by ancient armies) and Bhutto (dwellers of high places).

Blood group

A study by the Pakistan Journal of Medical Sciences on blood types of the major ethnicities in the Punjab showed that O is the most common blood group (among all ethnicities), except among the Arains where B is most common, the difference being statistically significant. Whilst not a proof of non-local ancestry, it does illustrate a difference between the Arain and the other castes inhabiting the Punjab. More research would be needed to determine in greater detail the caste's migratory provenance.

The Arain during the British Raj

The Arain land holders should not be confused with the more gentrified zamindars such as the feudal Rajput landlords of vast holdings. Polo, partridge shoots and tea parties were therefore not associated attributes. Neither were the more negative and profligate practises such as "...dancing girls, drunken evenings listening to poetry, or numerous marriages..". When the British wanted land developed in the Punjab after its annexation, Arain were brought in to cultivate lands around the cities, forming irrigated colonies. The Arain were so favoured for their "hard work, frugality and sense of discipline". Subsequent development of towns and cities and increasing urbanisation resulted in the value of the land settled by Arain to rise significantly, and Arain families thus flourished. Education was prioritised with the new found wealth and the Arain came to dominate the legal profession amongst urban Punjabi Muslims. Many used law to enter politics.

The Arain were classified as a "non-martial race" by the British, a classification deemed arbitrary and based on prejudices prevalent at the time (see martial race).

Bibliography

• Punjab Census Report, 1911, Pandit Harikishan Kaul
• A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province, H. A. Rose
• Kinship and Continuity: Pakistani Families in Britain, Alison Shaw

To the anonymous authors

I have to thank the anonymous authors who keep reverting the articles back to the referenced version despite persistent vandalisms by certain other authors. For the latter, the following applies as much now as it did when it was originally posted:

Discussion

Sub castes

It has been mentioned that Mian, Mehar and Chaudary are sub-castes. Howeverm at least Mian and Chaudary are title. I know a few subcastes becuase of my relation. One is Gallar/Gallariye (My father side) and another is Bugay (My mother side). I also know there is another sub-caste Gallan. I try to find some references to them before putting it here. f anyone else has any information in this regard then it will be useful to have a subsection on subcastes..

There is also a group called Baghpurra Arain. I am not sure if they are to be considered as subcastes or a seprate group.

Yes I confirm that Gallan is a 'gote' of arain family as told by my father Chaudry Rahmat Ali who was arain from Chak No. 257 G.B. Toba Tek Singh. (from Lt. Col (Retd) Javaid Iqbal Zahid). Originally Arains came from Ariha a twon near Jeruslem in Palastine where they were farming but originally settled after Muslim coquest of Syria. A group of approximately 5000 soldiers from Ariha and suuroundings were gathered together to join Mohammad Bin Qasim for expedition to India. Arains settled in Indian Punjab for farming and agriculture. (reference: book "Tarikh-e- Araian" in Urdu)

Sana Nawaz (Lollywood Actress)

I added Sana Nawaz (Lollywood Actress) in famous people category. I have mentioned the published reference for that. In that article, her father’s full name includes the word Arain, which obviously stands for his cast. Her father full name is Malik Mohammad Nawaz Arain. Malik is also a caste but here it is used as title e.g. like Chaudhry. Arain is not used as a title by anyone other than an arain. SAna Nawazz i love u If anyone has a reference that rejects the referenced article's claim about Sana being an Arain then write the new reference here in the discussion, before removing the entry.

Aryan descent

For Kneeslasher

The land of the five rivers was known as panchanad in the ancient period, and as Punjab in the medieval period. Punjabiyat is a recent concept, but the regional identity denoted by it has long been shaped by language, territory, literary and folk traditions, classical and folk art forms including the vigorous bhangra, cuisine, dress including headgear and so on. Punjab has witnessed far reaching ethnographic changes since the last ethnographic accounts were written. Partition entailed immigration of populations of the Hindus and Sikhs. The reorganization of the Punjabi Suba led to the rise of the Sikhs as the dominant community. Of the ninety-five communities studied under the People of India project in Punjab the Scheduled Castes form a major chunk. The state is divided into three distinct eco-cultural zones, defined by the dialects of Punjabi language. While Punjabi is the most widely spoken language, followed by Hindi, sixteen other languages are also spoken by local communities and immigrants, all belonging to the Indo-Aryan family.

This paragrph does not say all these groups belong to Indo-Aryans family. Explain where does it say Arain belong to Indo-Aryan family?

You're absolutely right. I made a mistake and misread the Indo-Aryan as referring to the ethnic groups rather than the languages of the Punjab. I've re-used a cut-down version of the reference for further support that the Arain are a group in the Punjab: all mention of Indo-Aryan is now excised.
Kneeslasher 00:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

For 68.236.156.186

Arain's also claim to be descendents of the Aryan race. Some Arain’s are born with blonde hair and some with blue eyes; Aryans are the Indic subgroup of the Indo-Iranian branch.

Unfortunately, this needs at least on reference and general clean up. Some points to consider:

- The concept of an "Aryan race" us a little shadowy and vague. Whilst it is undoubted that many groups were (and are) Aryan, whether this constitutes a (strictly) racial classification is under heated debate.
- The Arain are not the only caste descended from the ancient population of the Punjab/India. The other neighbouring tribes are equally of "Aryan descent".
- The bit about the Indo-Iranian Indic branch is the modern parlance for Aryan, and probably true. It still needs references though.

Speaking personally, I have seen undoubted cases of Arain with blond to brown to red hair, blue eyes, etc., however, this does not constitute a verifiable reference as is needed here, so there is no point in mentioning it. Until such references are found, we cannot state this as fact in the article. Please do see if you can dig up at least one reference and post it here on the talk page for discussion before editing the article directly with non-referenced statements.

Kneeslasher 19:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Unique descent (blood tests)

POV statements, opinions claiming a reference which the reference doesn't support, and non-credible references, 193.115.70.9:

[ 3 ]"However, this does not amount to a significant statistical difference such as would allow the Arain to claim different or unique ancestry[17]."

Again the referenced study does not say that it "does not amount to a significant statistical difference such as would allow the Arain to claim different or unique ancestry". In fact there is a significant statistical difference that exists, hence the study mentions it. I quote the study "There is no statistically significant difference of ABO and Rh-D distribution among various ethnic groups,......except in Arains where B is the most common and O is less common." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.115.70.9 (talk) 13:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

I have a bone to pick here. The quote obviously shows that the statistical difference is not significant. This term is not semantic, it is quantitative, with reference to percentiles in the jargon of statistical analysis (see confidence intervals and significance in stats discussion). So whilst the difference is noted, it is also noted that it simply isn't enough to (yet) differentiate the Arain significantly from their peers in the Punjab.
Kneeslasher 15:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The quote says that the statistical difference is not significant, except for Arains. It is also not enough to say that there isn't a difference, i.e. more research is needed, so we cannot say either way. hence my wording which does not make it a definite proof. 193.115.70.9 17:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Lack of significant proof doesn't mean the Arain aren't different! They may well be different, it just means the study is unable to prove it conclusively: surely this point stands since statistical analysis for testing any quantity can have three possible "answers": a positive, a negative and a "not enough information for positive proof". It is the last of these which I'm advocating in accordance with the reference: I'm certainly not arguing for the negative result!
Kneeslasher 17:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

OK I agree, but the current wording says "However, this does not amount to a significant statistical difference" however the study does make a statitical difference between Arains and others by at least 10% in blood groups O & B. So although the study findings DO amount to a statistical difference of at least 10%, the study alone is not enough to prove the case, so wording like However this study alone does not prove that Arains originate from Arabs, the study concludes that "Further ethnic based studies are required to confirm" [2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.115.70.9 (talk) 17:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

I've made changes which I hope accommodate the points you've brought up. I still think there's a little bit of ambiguity in the phrasing from that report: does the word "except" refer to Arain having group B blood, or to the significance? Either way, it's written as significant for now in the article.
Kneeslasher 18:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Generally, I'm going to refrain from blindly editing your edits since you seem more concerned with improving the article than inventing poorly constructed fantasies using even poorer English, unlike many of the other posters. I am sure we can use this space to discuss changes and revisions in a civilised fashion before committing them after reaching consensus. What do you say? No more edits unless they've been discussed here?

Kneeslasher 15:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to say what a pleasure it is to have a sane to and fro on the issue. Such discussion has been sadly lacking in this article since its inception. You might want to consider creating a Wikipedia ID proper.
Kneeslasher 17:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Market gardening

For 71.253.26.6

The level of general knowledge lacking in lamentable. When a contention arises due to differing opinions, that is normal and healthy. Where there is disagreement solely due to one of the interlocutors not realising the meaning of a word or term, then it is a case of the immovable rock of knowledge facing the obstinate wind of ignorance. To wit, let us deal with the prickly issue at hand: market gardening. Strictly speaking, we do not need a reference for this due to what market gardening actually means: making it axiomatic that most farmers are, by definition, market gardeners.

Market gardening means to grow crops for sale upon the market. The opposite of market gardening in subsistence farming where crops are grown solely for self-consumption. Needless to say that subsistence farming does not occur in all but the most primitive of societies or where political and economic order have severely broken down. This has not been the case in the Punjab for centuries if not millenia: the Punjab is one of the oldest centres of civilisation and, more pertinently, trade. Farmers in the Punjab have therefore always grown their crop as cash-crops, not food-crops. They are therefore firmly in the category of market-gardeners, and have been for centuries. Including the period when Kipling's Kim is set, which, as it happens, accurately describes this profession.

To assert otherwise is to relegate the Arain to be, out of all the other farmers in the Punjab, the only ones incapable of earning money from their land. Indeed it speaks of a remarkably low opinion of the Arain: opining them to be the only primitive farmers amidst the other farmers of the Punjab who are udoubtedly market gardeners. Unless denigrating the Arain in this way was your intention, you'll quote a reference which states categorically that Arain were not market gardeners. Otherwise, the very definition of the term demands their classification as such.

Kneeslasher 23:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

This is definition of market gardening

In agriculture, market gardening is the relatively small-scale production of fruits, vegetables and flowers as cash crops, frequently sold directly to consumers and restaurants.

First thing fruits, vegetables and flowers are not the only thing Arain grow, They grow all kind of crops other farmers of Punjab like Jat, Gujar etc do. Second thing based on the definition of market gardening farmers directly sell it to consumers that not what Arain do. That is why I am emphasising on fresh reference. small landowners statement also need fresh reference because things have been changed a lot after 1900.

Thanks.

Sorry, that doesn't cut the mustard. Apart from proving that your familiarity with the English language leaves you in no position to emphasise the subtleties of phrasing, you've proved nothing as regards the market gardening claim. Not to mention that you've misunderstood the sentence entirely, it provides information as to the traditional vocation, not what the Arain are up to these days (quite obviously, a number now exist in all fields: business, medicine, academia, etc.). So the criticism that the sentence is outdated is an oxymoron: the sentence naver aimed to decribe the diverse state of the Arain community in this day and age. Nor is anyone reading the article silly enough to conflate a singular manifestation of the Arain in colonial literature with an entire caste, in those times or these. The vast majority of the Arain do not have land that even begins to approach the size needed for heavily industrialised farming. Your comments are doubtless well meant, but either back up your claims with explicit references on the market gardening front, or accept that the Kim reference stays.
Kneeslasher 00:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

POV statements, opinions claiming a reference which the reference doesn't support, and non-credible references, 193.115.70.9:

[ 1 ] "They are chiefly associated with market gardening[4]"

The reference for this says "Behind them an angry farmer brandished a bamboo pole. He was a market-gardener, Arain by caste, growing vegetables and flowers for Umballa city, and well Kim knew the breed." (Kim, Rudyard Kipling).". It does NOT say thats arains are chiefly associated with market gardening. This is like showing a report that said General Zia-ul-haq was an arain, and therefore claiming that Arains are chiefly associated with the military.

You're entirely correct: the reference doesn't lead to the sentence. In retrospect, I can see that the sentence was written with a certain perception of the Arain already in mind. However, let us use logic instead of the reference. We can divide all farmers into, roughly, a heirarchy of three layers. At the most basic, we have subsistence farmers, growing food crops. Then we have market gardeners growing cash crops. Then we have highly industrialised farmers, often with huge holdings, also growing cash crops. The Arain only fit into the middle category, as do the vast majority of all farmers from all castes in the Punjab. So I contend that the assertion is correct, albeit not wholly supported by the reference.
Kneeslasher 15:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not leave it as 'farmers' then, using our own logic is a POV? 193.115.70.9 17:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

OK: farmers it is. I'll make the necessary changes.
Kneeslasher 17:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Famous Arain

For Patrika

We need more unambiguous references for the following prominent Arain:

Mian Sir Muhammad Shah Nawaz, a prominent and influential politician of Punjab in the 1920s: Please provide the exact quote.

Mian Iftikharuddin , a prominent politician, who sat on the opposition benches most of his life. A big landlord, he was founder of Imroze and Pakistan Times newspapers, which were later nationalized by Ayub government: It isn't mentioned anywhere in the reference provided that he was/is an Arain.

Mian Azhar Mahmood - Former Governor of Punjab,Pakistan: The reference given mentions the Arain involvement in politics and their support for this candidate, but nowhere does it mention that he is an Arain let alone a former Governor of the Punjab.

Kneeslasher

This paragraph is from the book Pakistan under Zia.

the Arain families put their money into education and reaped quick rewards. Soon they were to dominate the legal profession among the urban Muslims of Punjab,and a number of them used law as a springboard to politics. Mian Sir Muhammad Shah Nawaz, a prominent and influential politician of Punjab in the 1920s, was an Arain as was Mian Iftikharuddin, who was to play an important role in turning the Muslim community of urban Punjab toward favoring an independent Pakistan. Some Arains went into the civil service. Chaudhry Muhammad Ali, the senior most civil servant to opt for service in Pakistan, was an Arain from Jullundur. Ali went on to become Pakistan's second finance minister ( 1951-56) and its fourth prime minister ( 1956-57).

I think this is the result of maybe an unavoidable error. You see: I've got the page of that book open in front of me now, and it just doesn't contain those lines! On the version I have access to, it says "...springboard into politics. Mian Fazli Husain, the first chief minister...". You see, those two names just aren't mentioned in this version at all! Which is why I excised the stuff from the article. However, you seem to be showing a definitive quote which has two additional people mentioned. Is there a url where I can refer to this version to corroborate?
Kneeslasher 23:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the reference http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&docId=98917428 is unfortunately inaccessible to those of us in the wrong country: could you cut and paste the section about Arain in it into this talk page? Many thanks...

Kneeslasher 23:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is the information you requested

Many Arain families flourished as urbanization increased the value of their land, and they put this new wealth to good use. According to a Pakistani anthropologist, the Arain "has little of the elegance and polish of the traditional feudal landlords of the Punjab, Noons and Tiwanas, of Rajput origin. Afternoon tea parties, partridge shoots, or polo are not associated with Arains. Nor does he waste his energies on dancing girls, or drunken evenings listening to poetry, or numerous marriages, a pastime of the landed gentry through which they alienated their lands." 9 Instead, the Arain families put their money into education and reaped quick rewards. Soon they were to dominate the legal profession among the urban Muslims of Punjab, and a number of them used law as a springboard to politics. Mian Sir Muhammad Shah Nawaz, a prominent and influential politician of Punjab in the 1920s, was an Arain as was Mian Iftikharuddin, who was to play an important role in turning the Muslim community of urban Punjab toward favoring an independent Pakistan. Some Arains went into the civil service. Chaudhry Muhammad Ali, the senior most civil servant to opt for service in Pakistan, was an Arain from Jullundur. Ali went on to become Pakistan's second finance minister ( 1951-56) and its fourth prime minister ( 1956-57).

--Patrika 00:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Those are certainly good additions to the list.
Kneeslasher 11:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

References which still need to be utilised in expanding the article

Panjab Castes (Denzil Ibbetson)

[still needed]

Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province (H A Rose)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?vid=ISBN8120605055&id=UQUtQzPtC6wC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&ots=LiRYa56DU1&dq=ibbetson&sig=PaV8IZVllOLRvKbPtCIMZeJSmEs

[still needed]

I'm going to gain access to this book and post scans of the sections which deal with the Arain. Then the article can be expanded using strictly referenced material derived from the book.

Kneeslasher 13:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I've now located this book (above). And it's out of copyright so the material can be freely utilised here. Expect to see some updates when I get time to transpose them.
Kneeslasher 13:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Kim (Rudyard Kipling)

Chapter 3 Yea, voice of every Soul that clung

To life that strove from rung to rung When Devadatta's rule was young, The warm wind brings Kamakura.

Buddha at Kamakura.

Behind them an angry farmer brandished a bamboo pole. He was a market-gardener, Arain by caste, growing vegetables and flowers for Umballa city, and well Kim knew the breed.

'Such an one,' said the lama, disregarding the dogs, 'is impolite to strangers, intemperate of speech and uncharitable. Be warned by his demeanour, my disciple.'

'Ho, shameless beggars!' shouted the farmer. 'Begone! Get hence!'

'We go,' the lama returned, with quiet dignity. 'We go from these unblessed fields.'

'Ah,' said Kim, sucking in his breath. 'If the next crops fail, thou canst only blame thine own tongue.'

The man shuffled uneasily in his slippers. 'The land is full of beggars,' he began, half apologetically.

'And by what sign didst thou know that we would beg from thee, O Mali?' said Kim tartly, using the name that a market-gardener least likes. 'All we sought was to look at that river beyond the field there.'

'River, forsooth!' the man snorted. 'What city do ye hail from not to know a canal-cut? It runs as straight as an arrow ' and I pay for the water as though it were molten silver. There is a branch of a river beyond. But if ye need water I can give that - and milk.'

'Nay, we will go to the river,' said the lama, striding out.

'Milk and a meal.' the man stammered, as he looked at the strange tall figure. 'I - I would not draw evil upon myself - or my crops. But beggars are so many in these hard days.'

'Take notice.' The lama turned to Kim. 'He was led to speak harshly by the Red Mist of anger. That clearing from his eyes, he becomes courteous and of an affable heart. May his fields be blessed! Beware not to judge men too hastily, O farmer.'

'I have met holy ones who would have cursed thee from hearthstone to byre,' said Kim to the abashed man. 'Is he not wise and holy? I am his disciple.'

He cocked his nose in the air loftily and stepped across the narrow field-borders with great dignity.

'There is no pride,' said the lama, after a pause, 'there is no pride among such as follow the Middle Way.'

'But thou hast said he was low-caste and discourteous.'

'Low-caste I did not say, for how can that be which is not? Afterwards he amended his discourtesy, and I forgot the offence. Moreover, he is as we are, bound upon the Wheel of Things; but he does not tread the way of deliverance.' He halted at a little runlet among the fields, and considered the hoof-pitted bank.

Websites

Pakistan/India:
- http://www.pakboi.gov.pk/BFacts/punjab_.html

Various tidbits which do not seem to be glorified

For a while after completing his education, Bulleh Shah taught at the same mosque. He then became a murid of Inayat Shah Qadri, a famous saint of Qadirya school of sufis in Lahore, who belonged to the Arain caste. Bulleh Shah had to face the resentment and taunts of his family and other Syed friends for accepting the spiritual guidance of a non-Syed. The poetic response from Bulleh Shah rejected his critics' false concept of inherent superiority and nobility of any caste and set the pattern of his lifelong challenge to accepted norms:

Those who call me Syed Are destined to hell made for them. Those who call me Arain Have the swings of heaven laid for them.

The low-caste and the high-caste, Are created by God who is all-powerful; He casts away the fair ones, And clasps to His heart the meritless ones.

In 1729 when Shah Inayat died, Bulleh Shah succeeded him as the head of his monastery at Lahore. Bulleh Shah died in 1758. He never married.

It is pretty easy to find what Arain are: https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html

In india there are four classes of muslims: Syed: Decendants of Prophet Muhammad

Shaikh: Decendants of Arab merchants who settled in india

Pathans: Decendants of Pustuns

Ohters: All others are the converts from the indigenous people to islam.

A naive guy wrote the following:

Arains' have two branches: one is Hindu called Arain Caste Kamboh and the others are the converts from the Hindus to Islam. They are Arains Caste.

If Arain were a tribe as the article claims, the Paksitani government forms would not have classified Arain as a caste, just as the Indian Govt clasified Arain as a hindo caste. There is a vast difference between a caste which is based on Hindo caste system and a tribe. The arain caste is the caste of vegetable growers. I hope someone will correct this.

OUR RESPONDER:

MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE KAMBOH/KAMBOJ ARE NOT A CASTE; THEY ARE ANCIENT INDO-IRANIAN TRIBE. THEY ARE NOT RELATED TO CASTE ARAINS SINCE THE ARAINS, LIKE THE JATS AND THE RAJPUTS, ARE ALSO A CASTE OF MANY MIXED RACES. BASED ON 1991/2001 CENSUS STATISTICS, THE KAMBOJ WERE ABOUT 43% MOSLEM (7,50,00), 32% SIKHS (5,70,00) and 25% HINDUS (4,50,00). THUS KAMBOJ ARE FOUND BOTH MUSLIMS AS WELL AS NON-MUSLIMS i.e. HINDUS & SIKHS. THE FUNNY GUY WHO WROTE THAT THE KAMBOH/KAMBOJ ARE AN ARAIN CASTE KAMBOH, WHO ARE THE HINDUS COUNTERPARTS OF THE MUSLIMS ARAIN CASTE IS SIMPLY TALIKING BULL SHIT AND THROUGH HIS A*---HOLE. IN THE PRE-PARTITION DAYS IN INDIA, THERE WERE THE "MUSLIM KAMBOH", "MUSLIM ARAINS" AND THE "MUSLIM JATS"----ALL LIVING DISTINCTLY, IN THE SAME VILLAGES. THIS FACT IS ALSO RECORDED BY IBBETSONS/ROSES ETC. IF THE ARAINS ARE JUST THE MUSLIM KAMBOJ/KAMBOH, THEN WHY ABOUT 45% OF PRE-PARTITION KAMBOH POPULATION WERE IDENTIFIED/CALLED SEPARATELY AS "MUSLIM KAMBOH"?. AND FOR WHAT REASONS HAD THESE MUSLIM KAMBOHS MAINTANED THEIR KAMBOJ IDENTITY SEPARATE FROM THE THE ARAINS IN THE SAME VILLAGES, IF THEY WERE INDEED THE SAME PEOPLE, AND THE DIFFERENCE WAS MERELY THE RELIGION?. BASED ON THIS AND SOME OTHER IMPORTANT INFORMATION, EVEN BRITISH COLONIAL WRITERS LIKE IBBESTSON & ROSE HAD TO ADMIT THAT THE HYPOTHESIS TO CONNECT KAMBOJ WITH ARAINS IS UNPROVEN AND PROBABLY BASELESS, EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT BOTH PEOPLE HAD COME FROM WEST DIRECTION. BUT THEN MANY OF THE OTHER CASTES OF PUNJAB, (e.g ANCESTORS OF JATTS, RAJPUTS etc) HAD ALSO COME FROM THE WEST. UNFORTUNATELY, THE HALF-BAKED PEN-PUSHERS & THE IGNORANT/NAIVE READERS WHO BLINDLY FOLLOW THESE WRITERS, WITH NO BRAIN OF THEIR OWN, AND WHO WITHOUT ANALYSING THE EXISTING DATA IN A CRITICAL, SCIENTIFIC AND LOGICAL MANNER, HASTILY JUMP TO THE UNPROVEN/BASELESS CONCLUSIONS. THESE FELLAS DEFINITELY NEED TO BE EDUCATED ON REAL HISTORY AND ETHNICS.

Satbir Singh (talk) 19:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

AND THE SAME FELLOW HAS PRODUCED THE FOLLOWING TEXT FROM H. A. ROSE's GLOSSARY OF TRIBES:

Satbir Singh (talk) 19:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC) p. 442

"Kamboh-- The Kamboh is one of the finest cultivating castes in the Punjab.They are found in the upper Sutlej valley as low down as montgomery,throughout the northern portion of the eastern plains,and as low don the Jumna valley as Karnal.They are especially numerous in Kapurthala..."

p.443

"They claim descent from Raja Karan,and say that their ancestor fled to Kashmir.The Kamobhs of Bijnor also trace their origin to the trans-indus country,and Mr. Purser accepts this tradition as evidently true.They are said by some to be ancient inhabitants of Persia.Arains and Kambohs are commonly supposed to be closely related:indeed in Montgomery a man appears to be called Arain if he is Musalman and Kamboh if he is Hindu.But that this is not always the case is evident from the fact of a very considerable proportion of the Kambohs of Amritsar,Lahore,Ferozpur,Patiala,Nabha,and Maler kotla having returned themselves as Musalmans,although Musalman Arains are also numerous in these tracts.In Jullunder the village of Bhalowal is owned partly by Kambohs and partly by Arains,both being Musalmans.It is perhaps dountful whether the supposed relationship has any further basis than the fact that they both came from the west,and are both of much the same social standing and agricultural repute.It is highly probable that the nucleus of the Arain caste was a group of Hindu Kambohs converted to Islam. Thus in Jullunder the Gaure,Hande and momi clans are found in both castes,and in Montgomery several of their clan names are identical.It is said by some that the chief distinction is that the Kamboh take money for their daughters,while the Arains do not.But the social standing of the Kamboh is on the whole superior to that of the Arain and very markedly so where the latter is a vegetable -grower.The Kamobh moverover, is not a mere agriculturist.He not infrequently engages in trade,and even takes service in the army or in offices or even as a private servant,while his wife not infrequently lends money even where he is a mere husbandman;and under Akabar a Kamboh general called Shahbaz Khan commanded 5000 (9000) men and distinguished himself greatly in BengalMuslim Kambohs held Sohna in Gurgon some centuries ago;and the tombs and Mosques that they have left show that they must have enjoyed a considerable position.The military,mercantile,and clerkly Kamboh are said to be distinguished as Qalmi or 'men of the pen' and not to intermarry with the agricultural or Khaki section of the caste.The Kamboh do not seem to bear as high a character for honesty as they do for skill.There is a Persian proverb current in the united Provinces:"The Afghans,the kambohs,and the Kashmiris;all three are roughes(badzat)"..The Kambohs are said to be exceptionally numerous in Meerut. Their location under the hills lends some slight support to their tradition of origin from Kashmir..."

---

ON ARAIN vs KAMBOJ/KAMBOH & ARAIN vs JATT RELATISHIP

OUR RESPONDER:

HI Dudi, you seem to have little knowledge of history, so update your knowledge first since little knowledge could be dangerous.

FIRST OF ALL, THE KAMBOJ/KAMBOJ IS NOT A CASTE, THE KAMBOH/KAMBOJ ARE A VERY PRESTIGIOUS ANCIENT TRIBE KAMBOJAS (q.v.) OF THE INDO-IRANIANS, LIVING ANCIENTLY IN EAST IRAN, WHICH INCLUDED THE TERRITORIES NOW FORMING PARTS OF NORTH AFGHANISTAN AND TAJIKSTAN IN CENTRAL ASIA. AND ALSO BE INFORMED THAT THERE COULD ONLY BE AS MUCH CONNECTION BETWEEN THE KAMBOH/KAMBOJ TRIBE AND ARAIN CASTE AS IS BETWEEN THE JATT CASTE AND THE ARAIN CASTE (Both Jatt and Arains are castes; on the otherhand, the Kamboh (Kamboj) are not a caste, but definitively are a tribe, still carrying the vestiges of the ancient Kambojas (MUST READ Kambojas) ; Kamboja).

(1) ON JATT vs ARAINS':

• REF: Handbook of the Panjáb, Western Rajpútáná, Kashmír, and Upper Sindh, 1883, p 61, John Murray (Firm).

It is to be noted that the above title: Handbook of the Panjáb, Western Rajpútáná, Kashmír, and Upper Sindh, 1883, by John Murray and page161, clearly connects the Caste-Arain caste with the Jatt Caste. In this book, the Arains, in fact, are described as the real-blood cousins of the Jatts and are said to have descended from the same ancestors as the Jatts (ibid p 61)).

(2) ON KAMBOH/KAMBOH vs ARAIN:

On page 119 of his book titled: The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, 1896, William Crooke, has affirmed that none of the 52 important clan-names of the Kamboh (Kamboja) of Punjab contain any Arain clan names. The three clan names i.e Gore/Gaure, Momi and the Hande are the only important common clans found among the Arain as well as the Kamboh. And the Kambohs deny any relation with the Arains, notes William Crooke (See: The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, 1896 p 119).

Gore/Gori//Gaure and Hande/Handa clan names are also found among the Kamboj and Khatris community of Punjab also.

(COMMENT: The total Kamboh clans are about 200. About 20 minor clan-names of the Kamboh/Kamboj, out of a total of 200, overlap with those of the ARAINS)

JATT vs ARAIN CLAN NAMES: On the other hand, there are over 50-60 clan names among the Arains which are also shared by the Jatt Caste of Punjab. Also important to note that there is a Jatt clan called RAIN (prakritic/vernacular form of ARAIN). It is highly probable that this RAIN (Rain = Arain) formed the nucleus for the origin of Arain caste. It is, therefore, highly probable that name of the Arain caste has also originated from this Jatt clan name called RAIN/ARAIN

Based on the clan-name studies in late 19th century, British colonial writers like Ibbeston/Purser had first hypothesized that some population of the Arains may have came from the Kamboh/Kamboj. The final affirmation was to be postponed till the clan names of the Arains and Kamboh/Kamboj were compared side by side after 1881 census results were published. But as it turned out, the results of the census did not prove the hypothesis and did not establish/prove the Kamboj/Arain connections on the sharing of clan names. Rather, based on the criteria of clan-name sharing, the correlation between the Jats and the Arains was stronger than between the Kamboj and the Arains. Hence, William Crooke had correctly put down the above observations in 1896.

Ironically, one British writer named Purser, commented: ...."the Arain are usually supposed to be Muslim Kambohs. The Jullander Arains themselves say that they are descended from Rai Chajju of Ujjain. Kambohs claim descent from Raja Keran, who was related to him (i.e Rai Chajju)". Interestingly, this writer, (Purser) does not provide any referential sources for his above wild statement on Raja Karan and Rai Chajju and their connection to each other.

Who was RAI CHAJJU? and who was this RAJA KARAN? And which sources do say that they were RELATED??. And where are those HISTORICAL REFERENTIAL SOURCES located now, which Mr Purser has relied on??? In my 19 years of research, I have nor been able to find any ancient reference to RAI CCHAJJU, the so-called fore-father of the ARAINS or on his relationship to RAJA KARAN, the so-called ancestor of the KAMBOJ!

Frankly speaking, nothing could be more stupid and bull-shitty than the above wild and trashy statement of this British colonila writer (Purser). Based on this kind of mythical and misleading writings, many so-called half-baked scholars/political writers of modern times still continue to repeat this nonsense on every page, here and there, and every now and then, perhaps for sadistic reasons.

CLASSICAL CASE OF RAJA KARAN--THE SO-CALLED ANCESTOR OF THE KAMBOJS

By the way, if one reads Glossary of Tribes and Castes of Punjab by H. A. Rose, (The Bible of these half-baked modern ethnic writers), one would be surprised to notice many many weird/foolish things through out. THe readers are encouraged to go through the following text, if they have enough stamina and patience. All the following information on Raja Karan vs various Castes of Punjab has been collected from the writings of these colonial British writers of pre-partition days, like the Purser, the Ibettson and the Rose etc. These guys had collected this useful and scientific(!) 1information from the Great Mirasis of Punjab and recorded it faithfully as a part of the real history of the Punjabi Castes/People! Amusingly enough, many naive/credulous readers (this includes Kamboj, Jatts, Rajputs alike), who lack the analytical reasoning of their own, are over-gladdened to read this kind of non-sense and thus overly-boast about their mythical ancestory with RAJA KARAN or some other mythical Raja.....which is nothing more than a fanciful creation of the over-ingratiating Punjab Mirasis and the Bhatts. These resourceful and flatterting Mirasis can quite easily create one Raja for every TOM, DICK and HARRY clan/caste to seek their favors! Such myths can not be and should not be treated as a factual history.

EXAMPLES FROM THE GLOSSARY OF TRIBES/PANJAB CASTES ETC

[1] KHAKH JATT CLAN is descendent of RAJA KARAN.!. In Bahawalpur, this Jat tribe gave the following genealogy: Raja Karan had a son named Kamdo who had a son named Pargo who had a son named Janjuhan who had a son named Khakh. Khakh had four sons: Babbar, Gabbar (Gaawar/Gabar/Gawar), Rabbar, and Jhaggar (Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, H. A. Rose, p 31).

[2] BABAR JATT CLAN: Babbar is a Jatt clan in Dera Ghazi Khan- probably immigrants from the east or aboriginal- and in Bahawalpur. Babbar is said to be descedants of Raja Karan (See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, H. A. Rose, p 31).

[3] JANJUHAN JATT CLAN: Janjuhan is a Mohammadan Jatt as well as Arain clan name. Janjuhan is also a descent of Raja Karan (Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, H. A. Rose, read pp 31 and 356 together).

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1569

[4] WARAH/BARAH, BARAH/WARAH..JATT clans descended from RAJA KARAN. Name derived from Sanskritic: Varaha which means boar. This tribe is said to be in Jullunder to be Rajputs descendend from Raja Karan of the Mahabharat (See Website below; See also: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, p 65, H. A. Rose")

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1012

[5] DHILLON, GORAYE/GORAYA JATS are descendents of RAJA KARAN! God Sun/Suraj had an illustrious son called Karana (refertence is obviously to Pandava’s elder brother, Karan/Kama ....a great charity giver) is stated by this tradition to have had four sons (1) Chattar Sain (2) Brikh Sain (3) Loh sain (4) Chandor Sain….. The Dhillon/Goraya Jats are described to be the descendents of this Loh sain, the above said son of Raja Karan. (See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 237/238, H. A. Rose etc)

[6] THATHA/THATHIAL, NARU/NARWAHA JAT CLANS are descendents of RAJA KARAN! At another place of ROSE's GLOSSARY (p 467/468), the SAME legendary Raja Karan is stated to have fathered only two sons (1) Thathu (2) Naru…… and Glossary states...From Thathhu originated Thathal Jats/Rajputs and from Naru originated Narwaha gotras Jats/rajputs [Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol III, pp 467/468, H. A. Rose).

[7] At another place in the same classic books (by the colonial British Writers), the KHARRAL Rajput/KHARRALl Jat clans are also stated to be the descendants of Raja Bhupa who, according to H. A. Rose, was a direct descendant of RAJA KARAN and was originally settled in Uch/Multan (See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 496, H. A. Rose; Punjab Castes, 1974 Edition, p 131, Denzil Ibbetson).

[8] H. A. Rose writes: "The Multan tradition discloses that the LANGHAHS (LAHNGAS) are PUNWARS and are allied to the KHARRALS, HARRALS, BHUTTAS, AND THE LAKS "( See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 496, fn; See also: Multan Gazetteer, 1902, p 138). All these are thje so-called Jatt/Rajput clans (though Langhas are also found among the Kambohs, and Bhuttas are predominantly Arains). Since they are all related to the KHARRALS, as seen above, hence they are also to be treated as the descendants of the same Raja Karan.

[9] BARIA/VARYA, WARAH a Rajput tribe, said in Jullundur, to be Solar Rajput, descended from Raja Karan of the Mahabharata (See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, p 65 by H.A. Rose).

[10] The KATHIAS of Ravi/Chenab Punjab also claim to be descendants of RAJA KARAN (See: Denzil Ibbetson , Punjab Castes, p 131; Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 482 fn, H. A. Rose).

[11] H. A. Rose as well as Denzil Ibbetson note that "The Kathias claim to be PUNWAR Rajputs" (See: Denzil Ibbetson , Punjab Castes, p 130, Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 482, H. A. Rose). This makes the PUNWARS who are related to the KATHIAS also the descendants of celebrated Raja Karan.

[12] The Kathias have TWO MAIN divisions viz. (1) The KATHIAS proper and (2) the BAGHELAS. Since Kathias are said to have descended from Raja Karan, and since the BAGHELAS are a section of the Kathias, hence by corollary, the BAGHELA rajputs are also the descendants of the same Raja Karan.

[13] Further more, the BALWANA and the PAWAR are said to be other leading clans of the KATHIAS and hence as a consequence, are also the descendants of same Raja Karan (See: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, pp 48, H. A. Rose; Punjab Castes, 1974, p 131, Denzil Ibbetson).

In nutshell, the the KATHIAS/KATHIS, BAGHELAS, BALWANAS and PAWARS are all the descendants of same celebrated Raja Karan.

[14] RAJPUT SECTIONS of KATHIAWAR also claim to be descendants of the same RAJA KARAN.(See: Denzil Ibbetson , Punjab Castes, p 131; See also: Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 483, H. A. Rose)

(15] What is more funny/interesting, the Kamboj tribe is said to have originated from the same legendary RAJA KARAN (of Mahabharata?). (See numerous refs: Glossary of Tribes & Castes by H. Rose p 443-445; Also read: "Kamboh" in Panjab Castes by Denzil Ibbetson , pp 149/150; REPORT ON THE REVISED LAND REVENUE SETTLEMENT OF THE MONTGOMERY DISTRICT IN ..., 1878, p 50, C. A. Roe and W. E. Purser; Gazetteer of the Montgomery District (Sahiwal), 1883-84, Edition 1990, p 68, Punjab (Pakistan), Punjab (Pakistan - Sahiwal District (Pakistan); The Tribes and Castes of the North-western Provinces and Oudh, 1896, p 206, William Crooke - Ethnology; Folklore of the Punjab, 1971, p 8, Sohindara Siṅgha Waṇajārā Bedī - Folklore; Bibliotheca Indica, 1949, p 388, Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal, Asiatick Society (Calcutta, India); Punjabi Musalmans, 1991, p 89, J. M. Wikeley - Ethnology; ʻAin-i-Akbari of Abul Fazl-i-ʻAllami , 1948, p 388, Abū al-Faz̤l ibn Mubārak, Jadunath Sarkar; The Historical Background of Pakistan and Its People, 1973, p 128; An Observation: Perspective of Pakistan, 1987, p 100, Ahmed Abdulla; Punjab, the Land of Beauty, Love, and Mysticism, 1992, p 211, Syed Abdul Quddus - Punjab (India); See also: Kamboj Itihaas, p 7, 1972, H. S. Thind). And the learned and very knowledgeable Mirasees of the Kambojs of Panjab also flatter the Kamboj population by stating that their ancestor, RAJA KARAN, was a great charity-giver and used to donate 50 ser (40 kg) of gold to the poors every day, before taking his breakfast!!!!!!!.

[16] The Kakezai caste claim origin from Afghans and alos cliam as descendents of Kakka, son of (RAJA) KARAN. (Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 355, H. A. Rose)

[17] According to Punjab Gazetteer, the Arains Caste of Pakistan (which is numbering about 70 milliosn?) are said to be descendants of /related to RAJA KARAN! This is because Rai Chajju (i.e. RAI JAJ OF Mr W. E. PURSER, H. A. ROSE & WILLIAM CROOKE etc), the ancestor of most of the Arains, was a relative of RAJA KARAN as the very scholarly writers like Ahmed Abdulla or Syed Abdul Quddus declare (See: The Historical Background of Pakistan and Its People, 1973, p 128; An Observation: Perspective of Pakistan, 1987, p 100, Ahmed Abdulla; Punjab, the Land of Beauty, Love, and Mysticism, 1992, p 211, Syed Abdul Quddus - Punjab (India)).

[18] Bhutta (Bhutto) clan of the Arains of Jalandhar Tehsil stated that they were descendants of Raja Bhutta, fifth in descent from Raja Karan, and were settled originally in Uch (Refs: North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64; ˜The tribes and castes of the north-western provinces and Oudh in four..., 1999, p 206, William Crooke; North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64, Mythology, Hindu; Jalandhar Settlement Report, p 82, sqq ; Cf: ˜The œtribes and castes of the north-western provinces and Oudh…, 1999 edition, p 206, William Crooke; See also: North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64, Hindu Mythology; A Glossary of the Tribes & Castes of the Punjab & North-west Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 15, H. A. Rose etc). The Buttas, along with Harrals, Punwars, Laks, as seen above are also the sections of Kharrals (Multan Gazetteer, 1902, p 138)

[19] The Bhuttas/Bhuttos (a clan of the Jatts & Rajputs) would similarily be the descendants of the legendary RAJA KARAN, since Bhutta/Bhutto is merely a clan name and is shared by Arains, Rajputs and the Jatts. Since clan names are always a fixed parameter whereas tribe or caste may change, hence the Bhuttas/Bhuttos found among the Arains , Rajputs and the Jatts come of the same original stock and hence all must be descendants of same Raja Karan.

[20] The Story does not end here!!!. One only needs to go through each & every page of these Bibles of the Punjab Castes written by these great British Gazetteers of 19th/20th c AD to fully learn as to how many more of the Panjab tribes/clans can be said to have descended from the (KAMBOJ) RAJA KARAN....Probably the list would be endless!!

BTW: If RAJA KARAN was indeed the ancestor of the Kamboh/Kamboj tribe (and also of the ARAINS, as these colonial era Bible books want us to believe, and which many modern half-baked scholars like Mr Ahmed Abdulla, Syed Abdul Quddus and their ilk also thoughtlessly continue to promote and repeat on every page, here and there), then, this RAJA KARAN, definitely can't be the Pandava brother RAJA KARNA who had fought in Mahabharata war. This is because the Kambojs/Kambohs, WHO ARE OTHERWISE SAID TO BE HIS SUPPOSED DESCENDANTS, were already existing in millions at the time of this KAURAVA/PANDAVA RAJA KARAN, and had participated in the Mahabharata war with full division (Akshauhin) army of the the wrathful warriors which besides the Kambojas, also included the Shakas, Yavans, Tukharas and the Khasass. And very interestingly, in the same Kurukshetra war, the legendary RAJA KARAN had also participated on behalf of the Kauravas.

See: Kurukshetra War and the Kambojas.

Furthermore, if this legendary RAJA KARAN was indeed a Kamboj/Kamboh, then how come so many non-Kamboj clans like the Jat/Rajput clans (DHILLON, GORAYA, THATHIAL, KHAKH, VARYA, BRAH, BARIA, WARAH, NARU, NARWAHA, KATHIS, KAKEZAI, KHARRALS, PAWARS, LAKS, HARRALS, THE RAJPUTS (OF SURASHTER/KATHIAWAD), THE BHUTTOS/BHUTTAS and the KATHIAS OF RAVI/CHENAB etc) could also be the descedants of the same (KAMBOJ) RAJA KARAN, unless these JATTS/RAJPUTS/KATHAS/BHUTTOS/KATHIS/KHARRALS/PUNWARS/BAGHELAS/BALWANAS/PAWARS etc along with the ARAINS, were ALL ORIGINALLY FROM the Kamboj/Kamboh race?. If this is accepted, (which has to be accepted if the colonial Pursers, Wilsons, Roses and Ibbetsons etc are to be believed), then all these DHILLON, GORAYA, THATHIAL, KHAKH, VARYA, BRAH, BARIA, WARAH, NARU, KHARRAL, HARRAL, BABBAR, LAK, PAWAR, JANJUHAN, NARWAHA, KATHIS, KAKEZAI, ALL RAJPUTS OF SURASHTER/KATHIAWAD, THE BHUTTOS/BHUTTAS, PUNWARS, BAGHLESA, BALWANAS, and, of course, the ARAINS must be accepted, without any hitch or hindrance, purely as a Kamboh/Kamboja breed-- the modern representatives of the famed ancient Kshatriyas of Mahabharata fame, known as the Kambojas, who are also said to be the forefathers of the modern Kamboj/Kamboh communty of Punjab/North-eastern Afghanistan. (DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO THE NAIVE READERS WHO BELIEVE IN THE LEGENDARY RAJA KARAN??????).

The Kambojs/Gandhars are one of the earliest and very ancient known Indo=Iranic tribes of north-west (now Indian Punjab and Pakistan). The Jatts, Rajputs, Arains, Kharals, Khokhars, Awans etc are merely the caste names and are only a phenomenon which occured much later in time on the Indian soil. All these occupational (Caste) names must be assumed to have been derived/evolved from the diverse ethnics of the Kambojas, Sakas, Pahlavas, Yavanas, Paradas, Kushanas, Hunas, Gurjaras etc. Since all the above mentioned ancient tribes, (NOTE: A minuscule population of the Kamboj, Kathis and Gujjar tribes, are still maintaining their ancient Tribal Identity), have already completely lost their original tribal Identity and therefore, have shifted from the TRIBAL DOMAIN into the CASTE-DOMAIN, it logically follows therefore that the Jatts, the Arains, the Rajputs and numerous other Indo-Iranic castes of the modern north-west regions, must have all evolved/derived from the above referred to ancient tribes of the Kambojas, Kambojas, Pahlavas, Paradas, Yavanas, Risikas/Yuechis, Hunas, and Gurjaras of the antiquity etc. Of course, many of the above said tribes were allied/cognate tribes, as some ancient references reveal. There could be no other explaination possible.

See Raja Karan: Raja Karan

MORAL OF THE STORY

One should not put too much confidence and trust on these PURSERS, IBETTSONS, ROSES AND THE LIKES....the British Designed Gazetteers of the nineteenth century. British Raj had its own mottos and Ajenda. These writers, sure enough, compiled and recorded more of the fictions, myths and nonsense as relayed to them by the Punajb Miraasis/Bhatts and are therefore, are more of MYTHICAL than historical information.

Unfortunately, it is a legacy of the same kind of the British colonial mentality that some of the modern political-writers like Ahmed Abdulla, Syed Abdul Qudduss etc till continue to stick to this unproved and outdated hypothesis of the Arain vs Kamboj connections.

Satbir Singh (talk) 03:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

THE ARAIN CASTE OF PAKISTAN SHARES OVER 50-60 OF THEIR CLAN NAMES WITH THE JATTS OF PANJAB

If one analyses Jatt vs Arains clan names, one will observe that over 50-60 clans of the Jatts overlap with those of the Arains. For purpose of illustration, below are given FEW of the many common Jatt-Arain clan found among the Jatts and the Arains: Bhatti, Khokhar, Langah, Bhutta, Joiya, Sindhu, Dhudi, Bassi/Basi, Chandor, Rain, Nain, Gilan, Wahandi, Thind, Gandhi, Sohi, Gal, Gaolon/Gelan/Gilan, Lahnga etc etc. There are numerous more common names in the complete list. The Arains also share several (about 20) of their names with the Rajput castes, and similar numbers with the Kamboj/Kamboh tribe also. Some clans-names of Arains are also shared with the Saini caste of Punjab. The (Kamboh/Kamboj have over 200 total clan names of their own as already stated before).

ON KAMBOJ/KAMBOH & ARAIN HYPOTHESIS

The ARAIN vs KAMBOH hypothesis is fundamentally wrong. The Kamboj is a very ancient prestigiou Iranic tribe where as Arains, like the the Jatts and Rajputs, are a mere Caste name. Further, the Kamboj population was about 190,000 in 1880 AD, where as the Arains were probably been over 4-7 million strong in 1880. How can a derived-caste (of ARAINS) could outnumber its supposedly parent-tribe (KAMBOH), in such HUGE NUMBERS, unless the derived-caste (ARAIN) was a mixture of numerous other hotchpotch castes, including the Jatt caste and Rajput castes also. Here, the Arains, like the Jatt & the Rajput caste etc are also, surely, a mixed caste (Dr M. S. Randhawa) and contain many diverse-elements from many diverse ancient sources. i.e they have absorbed/imbibed elements from other portions of the neighboring population like the Jatts, the Rajputs and similar groups down the time, who, in turn, were ALL, in all probability, derived from the ancient Tribal population of the Sakas, Kambojas, Pahlavas, Paradas, Yavanas, Kushanas, Hunas, Gurjaras etc etc. In conclusion, the glaring fact that about 50-60 number of the Arain clans are shared with the Jatt castes, about 20 clans with the Rajput castess and 20 with the Kamboj tribe (ancient Kambojas),...this is a very sufficient and strong enough proof that the Arains, in all probability, are connected predominantly with or related to the Jatts, as John Murray has written in his above book.

Satbir

Unreferenced additions, requiring references before being put into the article

Naseem Hijazi -- Famous novelist

Qudrat-ul-llah Shahab -- Famous writer

Admiral Haji Mohammad Siddique (HMS) Chaudhri -- The first Pakistani Naval Chief.

Admiral Ahmed Tasnim -- The commander of submarine PNS Hangor the day she sank the Indian frigate INS Khukri during the 1971 Indo-Pakistani War. Also only officer in Navy to have been awarded Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ) & Bar.

Mian Azhar - Former Governor of Punjab, Pakistan.

Mian Abdul Rashid - One of the most prestigious contracter of Pakistan.

Sir Mian Mohammad Shafi, one of the founders of Muslim League and a leading pre-partition politician.

Admiral Haji Mohammad Siddique(HMS) Chaudhri -- The first Pakistani Naval Chief

Naseem Hijazi -- Famous novelist

Qudrat Ullah Shahab -- Famous writer

Vice Admiral Ahmed Tasnim -- The commander of submarine PNS Hangor that sank the Indian frigate INS Khukri during the 1971 Indo-Pakistani War. Also only officer in Navy to have been awarded Sitara-e-Jurat (SJ) & Bar.

Mian Abdulhaq Nishan-e-pakistan,Nishan-e-Quaide Azam activist of pakistan movement and close to Mr.Jinnah.Prominent figure of District sahiwal old Montgomery.Ex-Mla parlimentry sacretary.

Mian Charagh Din of Niami (a prominent Arain figure of punjab,25-years unopposed president district board Montgomery,khansaab)

Mian Muhamad Zaman (EX-Fedral Minister,A prominent Arain figure of pakistan)

Begum Jahanara Shahnawaz, daughter of Sir Muhammad Shafi and wife of Mian Sir Muhammad Shah Nawaz . She was very active in the Pakistan movement and played a prominent role in the Direct Action or Civil Disobedience Movement launched by the Muslim League in the Punjab on January 24 1947 against the coalition government of Sir Khizr Hayat Khan Tiwana.

Muhammad Hanif Ramay, chief minister of the Punjab during the 1970s. He was a writer and a painter.

Sardar Asif Ahmed Ali, Pakistan's foreign minister during the 1990s.

Mian Sir Muhammad Shafi,an All-India level leader of the Muslim League from Lahore. The Shafi League was once rival to the Jinnah League in the late 1920s.

Mian Sir Abdur Rashid, first chief justice of Pakistan's Supreme court.

CH ASGAR CURRENT MPA FROM LAHORE IS AN ARAIN FROM PML(Q)

CH YAQOOB EX CONTROLLER OF PUNJAB UNIVERSITY FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS IS AN ARAI

For Ishtiaq Ahmed Lahori

This is what was added:

Mian Sir Muhammad Shafi of Baghbanpura, Lahore, was a leader of the Muslim League in the 1920s.

(Mian Sir Fazli Husain, the first Chief Minister of the Punjab was not an Arain. He was a Rajput. Burki is wrong)

(Mian Amiruddin, mayor of Lahore at the time of the Partition of India was a Kashmiri and not an Arain,Burki is wrong).

Now lack of awareness of your literary standards abounds, but it is certain that comments such as "So and so is wrong", without providing multiple references to back up the point, are entirely worthless and cannot be considered. You may well be correct in your assertions, but why not post the necessary references here on the talk page before such brutal vandalism? Kneeslasher 15:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

For Kneelasher,

The psuedonym you have chosen is quite "revealing". Personally I would have expected a proper name to communicate with someone teaching others about the rules of reference and how to write English and so on. Talking to a phantom is hardly a good way of making scientific assertions. But let me return to substantive matters with regard to what I wrote on the Arain:

Mian Sir Muhammad Shafi of Baghbanpura, Lahore, was a leader of the Muslim League in the 1920s.

(Mian Sir Fazli Husain, the first Chief Minister of the Punjab was not an Arain. He was a Rajput. Burki is wrong)

(Mian Amiruddin, mayor of Lahore at the time of the Partition of India was a Kashmiri and not an Arain,Burki is wrong).

Forget my literary standards for the moment although I have written three books and have been writing a weekly column since May 2002, first in Daily Times and now in the News International. What sort of reference would you want to establish the authenticity of a certain information? Suppose someone publishes a book but it has incorrect information. what would you do in that case? With regard to the items given above let me say the following:
1. About Sir Muhammad Shafi and his daughter Begum Shah Nawaz you can read their family history in the book by Begum Shah Nawaz, "Father and Daughter: A Political Biography" Karachi: Oxford University Press, 2002.
2. About Sir Fazli Hussain, just google on "Sir Fazli Hussain" and you will find Khaled Ahmed's article in Daily Times. I have also interviewed his son Ashiq Hussain and anyone who knows anything about politics knows that Mian Sir Fazli Hussain was a Bhatti Rajput.
3. About Mian Amiruddin I don't have any article to present but his son Mian Salauddin married Alama Iqbal's daughter and they have a son Yusaf Salauddin. The Mians of Barood Khana inside the Walled city of Lahore are Kashmiris.

Ishtiaq Ahmed Lahori

Common knowledge is not equivalent to a reference, despite its pervasiveness. And your three published books count for nothing in this arena since published work is no prerequisite for unbiased writing, even if it is in the same field. As for wrong information in a book, you'd better provide one or two countervailing references to rebut possible errors: your word is not enough.

You seem to be providing bona fide sources for the additions you are proposing though: so why not actually do the work and cite all the links instead of asking to be believed on faith in your integrity?

Kneeslasher 12:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way Kneeslasher you are using Ishtiaq's article in daily times as a reference to this article. Your problem is, you think you are only wise guy in this world but I am sorry, you are not.

And that is meant to affect me... how? Am I meant to suddenly delete the article's contribution because it has been made by someone whom I have had a discussion with and is therefore my "enemy"? And jump up and down and gibber with rage mayhap? This is exactly the type of childish silly behaviour which ensures this article needs constant vigilance. If the reference exists, then it is valid to use it. If it is by I A Lahori, then I would exhort I A Lahori to make contributions of a similar nature to the article, duly referenced of course.

Kneeslasher 21:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok tell me one thing what references I A Larori provided in his daily times article about the things he wrote, but you believed it because it fits your thinking? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.195.19.59 (talk) 21:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

Somehow I don't think my thinking comes into it since I'm not a professor of anthropology specialising in tribes of the Punjab. A verifiable reference is a verifiable reference, Wikipedia authors' feelings notwithstanding. Not a single web link has been provided by many of the authors dying to contribute to this article, yet somehow averse to backing up their proposed changes/additions.

Kneeslasher 17:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Fantastical assertions

Arab imaginings

POV statements, opinions claiming a reference which the reference doesn't support, and non-credible references, 193.115.70.9:

[ 2 ] "This view is not, however, shared by the Arabs themselves[ref]".

The reference is a sweepingly racist & untrue comment by a pakistani about arabs- ""Unfortunately, Arabs view all Pakistanis as dirt — our real and imaginary claims of kinship with them notwithstanding.", There is many a slip betwixt cup and lip, Ishtiaq Ahmed, Daily Times, Pakistan, 18/04/2006." This reference provides no support for the view that arabs think anything about the arain at all, so the statement "This view is not, however, shared by the Arabs themselves" is practically made up & POV

Point taken. That sentence could be omitted, but there is a caveat. The Arabs are noted for their passion (bordering on the extreme) for genealogy (Philip K Hitti, History of the Arabs, 10th ed.). Afghans settled in South Asia for well over a thousand years are still acknowledged as "Arabs" (i.e., of Arabic descent) by both the Arabs and the Afghans (cf, Idries Shah's biographical details). What the Arabs think therefore carries some weight, hence the statement is likewise not uninformed as it might otherwise appear.
Kneeslasher 15:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes the arabs WERE noted for the passion of geneology, not anymore, especially since Islam became ingrained in the arab mindset which forbade exreme tribalism. I can confirm with you that Arabs do not consider Afgans as Arabs, Afghanisatn is not part of the arab league, nor do they speak arabic, the main qualification. Also Afghans do not consider themselves Arab, rather the pashtun oral traditions hold the Theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites of the Lost Ten Tribes of Isreal, who converted to Islam. There is nothing in the reference to that says anything about what the Arabs think about Arain, it is also an untrue Pakistani stereotype of Arabs, based on the poor experiences of Pakistanis in the khalij or gulf area. Pakistanis would be well informed if they acknowledged that any ill-treatment of them by Khalijis is not against Pakistanis but also of non-gulf arabs such as Egyptian, Moroccan and Yemeni arabs. Other arabs & non-Arabs are also treated similarily to Pakisanis in the gulf by rich khalijis 193.115.70.9 17:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You've grasped the wrong end of the stick here: the Afghan tradition that they are of Arab descent is a can of worms I don't even want to touch. My point was about one famous half-Afghan who was known to be of Arabic (the Prophet's own lineage) descent and treated accordingly by both Afghans and Arabs. However, that doesn't detract from your main point. I'll excise the POV based reference accordingly.
Kneeslasher 17:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The Bhutto debacle

Benazir Bhutto has stated in her autobiography that the Bhuttos are a Rajput clan.

From http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/Sindh.html:

"Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: the Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kneeslasher (talk • contribs) 17:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

Origin section -- statistical data re: religious breakdown of castes

I don't want to get into personal spat over this with everybody, I'm just trying to make sure the info reflected on this page is accurate.

As the "Origin" section currently states, "The Arain, despite being majority Muslim, do have Sikh and Hindu members[12], as do the other agricultural castes of the Punjab (the Jats, Gujjars and Rajputs)[13]. The Arab origin claim can therefore be largely viewed as a desire for claiming an unbroken practise of Islam through the ages, for current prestige rather than accurate genealogical designation[14]."

This is misleading, as it attempts to reach a conclusion ("therefore...") from a misleading premise, namely the inference that there is no significant difference between the Arain, Jats, Gujjars, and Rajputs when it comes to the proportion of Muslims in each of the castes.

As the referenced website (Joshua Project, which was originally cited in support of this mistaken premise) actually reveals if you bother to look at the data there, the Arains are 97% Muslim, the Jats are 53% Muslim, the Gujjars are 55% Muslim, and the Rajputs are 31% Muslim. If anyone disputes these numbers, please provide an alternative source.

If there is no dispute over these numbers, then it is clear that the conclusion drawn above is unsupported by these statistics, and the Arain, like it or not, are significantly distinct in their religious makeup from these other castes, a fact which can be explained in various ways, but which cannot simply be explained away by saying, "They're pretty much similar to the other agricultural castes and the Arab origin claim must be a lie."

The Arab origin claim may be circumstantial, but it is certainly not contradicted by the data cited here.

I welcome discussion about this point.

Nizamarain 20:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Why go from good numbers to vague information?

Before we have good information - Arain 97% Muslims - with reference. What is the basis for deleting? This should not be for petty infighting, it should be for facts and conclusions from those facts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hangama101 (talk • contribs) 15:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Market gardening - Academic reference

"Arains, traditionally a small landowning and market gardening group with a reputation for hard work and entrepreneurship..." (Taken from Knowing Me, Knowing You: Social Networks in the surgical instrument cluster of Sialkot, Pakistan by Khalid Nadvi. See: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:RBP6xJvtF8UJ:www.ids.ac.uk/ids/bookshop/dp/Dp364.pdf+arains+market+gardening&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=uk)

Need For DNA Test

The best research would be a Y chromosome DNA test of Arain males from different districts of pakistan and then compare with other pakistani populations as well as arab and persian populations. The result will then close the chapters of mystery about the origin of Arians in Pakistan. As for as Blood group tests are concerned they are useless.

Yes that will certainly help putting a lot of mysteries to rest. Indians and Pakistanis have the same Y-chromosome haplogroup. We have the same genetic sequence and the same genetic marker (namely: M124). We have the same DNA molecule, the same DNA sequence. It also tells that we all moved 25000 years ago from central asia. Is it any close to the claims of many Indians to have emigrated from other parts of the world and not central asia alone? There is a need to conduct a serious study and not just rely on those fanciful stories narrated by the British colonial writers. —Preceding mmza comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 20:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

My Cousin, an Arain on both counts, got his Geneology from National Geographic and it turned out that he and his ancestors belong to J1b haplogroup. This group is prevalent in Europe, middle east especially Lebenon, Syria and Turkey. It has only arrived indus valley in the recent past. I leave it to the intellectuals to make conclusions.FirstCanadian (talk) 00:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It is good idea to study DNA of Arains. Actually there are two types of Arains in India and Pakistan. They are thought to be the generations of two Arain brothers. Which are Sirsewal Arains & Multani Arains. One Sersewal Arain brother married local Indian (It was the time when Arains newely entered in India). And further generations of Sersewal Arains also continued to mix in local Indians. The Multani Arains did not married in local Indians. They remain isolated from other local Indians regarding Marriage. Both i.e, Sersewaly Arains and Multani Arains moved to other districts of India and Pakistan. E.g, We are from Ambala India. Many centuries ago our forefathers moved from Multan to Ambala latter we moved from Ambala India to Pakistan in 1947 and then to Germany) but we still are know as Multani Arains. Our forefathers never married even with Sersewals Arains but now trend has been changed because the world has entered in the modern age. But it is necessary to study the DNA of Multani Arains (which are now also present in other districts of India and Pakistan)and the DNA of the Areeha local community. In this way this can be confirmed that the origion of Arains is Areeha to solve the mystery of origion of Arains . And it can be proved that the Arains are Arab descents and came with Muhammad bin Qasim (Arabic: محمد بن قاسم‎) in 711 AD from Areeha (which in Arabic is written as أريحا & in English is known as Jericho). I also think blood group is not enough proof. At the end I want to add I personally love humanity regardless of religion and origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Umar505 (talk • contribs) 10:06, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Indian Arain

Why the Section about Indian Arains has been deleted. When There are More then 3 Laks Arains in Indian Uttar Pradesh Bareilly , Pilibhit, Udham Singh Nagar Distt. They Claim their Relations with pakistani Arains and have very disticnt and Unique culture like Paki Arains. Shabiha--Shabiha 10:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Arains are not, and were never, classified as a martial race

To the idiot who persists in peddling myths about the Arains contribution to the armed forces, you are twisting source material and presenting a ludicrous and disingenuous take on the Arains reputation vis-à-vis the military. Please consult the following:

“…Zia came from a community not heavily represented in the armed forces (the Arains from Punjab)…” (See http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:ruoBy5dqz1MJ:www.workmall.com/wfb2001/pakistan/pakistan_history_zulfiqar_ali_bhutto_and_a_new_constitutional_system.html+%22Zia+came+from+a+community+not+heavily+represented+in+the+armed+forces+(the+Arains+from+Punjab)&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk)

“Ethnically, General Zia was from a line of Arains, who do not have much presence in the army, unlike Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan who were Pathans. Pathans are well represented in Pakistan’s armed forces.” (See http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:TBifkQ5dKv8J:yespakistan.com/people/past-presidents.asp+%22Ethnically,+General+Zia+was+from+a+line+of+Arains,+who+do+not+have+much+presence+in+the+army,&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk)

"The army was an unusual career for an Arain youngster; the British had not regarded the community as one of India's martial races..." (Pakistan under Zia, 1977-1988, Shahid Javed Burki)

If after reading the above, you still claim that Arains can be classified as a martial race – which is entirely your own, biased and unfounded viewpoint – then you are not only delusional, but devoid of all shame. The Arains have never been classified as belonging to those groups recognised as “martial races”, pre or post-partition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.165.145 (talk) 23:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Using a decent language does not hurt, it actually helps. Remember Bhutto was hanged by Zia. Any such comments were natural. Certainly there were no Arain regiments in British India Army, but for that we have to understand the history better. In the war of Independence 1857 there were not many Muslim names who fought Britishers tooth and nail. we can talk of General Bakht Khan and Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi. The latter was Arain who kept the Colonial army out of Ludhiana till he died. Similarly Maulana Habibur Rahman, was one of the founders of the Majlis-e-Ahrar, a movement of anti-imperialist nationalist Muslims of India. no wonder British did not want members of this clan in their army. —Preceding mmza comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 20:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Why Arains are not martial race

Arains have been traditionally sunnis and Deobandis. Everybody knows how much love there is between Deobandis and British. It was natural that Arains be not classified as a "martial race". Otherwise , Arains have characteristics of martial race like discipline , courage , guts , physical strength , etc.... but the British actively discriminated against Deobandis , which is why Arains could not get into military service. Also , being very religious Muslims , the Arains too would not have wanted to serve under the British "infidels" whom they regarded as oppressors and usurpers. Also , at that time , there were many practices in the Army which were regarded as un-Islamic , like drinking , dancing , keeping long moustaches , eating non-halal meat , etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.242.9 (talk) 21:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Not only is there not a single, reliable historical source that supports the above contention, the allegation itself is complete and utter nonsense. Pathans are noted for the adherence to strict, orthodox Islamic practices - why were they then so heavily recruited for the British Indian Army? The Sikhs fought two bitter and bloody wars against the British, before having to relinquish their kingdom in the Punjab - did they, or the Arains, then have more reason to view the British as "oppressors" and "usurpers"? If Arains were so reluctant to serve under the British "infidels" what accounts for Zia-ul-Haq enlisting? And to claim that the British Indian Army was plagued by un-Islamic practices such as "drinking," dancing," "keeping long moustaches," and "eating non-halal meat," is not just silly, but a distortion of the truth. For starters, the keeping of moustaches was a firmly established practice amongst Punjabi Muslims as it is. More importantly, the British actively encouraged its recruits to retain their religious practices, which they viewed as being integral to fostering qualities they recognised as forging their identities as "martial races" - hence, Sikh recruits for example, were instructed to observe kesh, and during the First World War, British officers commanding Muslim troops, actually made a point of eating halal meat when dining with their charges. Finally, anyone who is even familiar with the workings of the Pakistani army is aware of the strong drinking culture amongst the officer classes, so to single out the British Indian Army in this respect is just disingenuous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.77.75 (talk) 18:19, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

And another thing

[18] Bhutta (Bhutto) clan of the Arains of Jalandhar Tehsil stated that they were descendants of Raja Bhutta, fifth in descent from Raja Karan, and were settled originally in Uch (Refs: North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64; ˜The tribes and castes of the north-western provinces and Oudh in four..., 1999, p 206, William Crooke; North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64, Mythology, Hindu; Jalandhar Settlement Report, p 82, sqq ; Cf: ˜The œtribes and castes of the north-western provinces and Oudh…, 1999 edition, p 206, William Crooke; See also: North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64, Hindu Mythology; A Glossary of the Tribes & Castes of the Punjab & North-west Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 15, H. A. Rose etc). The Buttas, along with Harrals, Punwars, Laks, as seen above are also the sections of Kharrals (Multan Gazetteer, 1902, p 138)

ADINA BEG KHAN

ADINA BEG KHAN (d. 1758), governor of the Punjab for a few months in AD 1758, was, according to Ahwal-i-Dina Beg Khan, an unpublished Persian manuscript, the son of Channu, of the Arain agriculturalist caste, mostly settled in Doaba region of the Punjab. He was born at the village of Sharakpur, near LAHORE, now in Sheikhupura district of Pakistan. Adina Beg was brought up in Mughal homes, for the most part in Jalalabad, Khanpur and Bajvara in the Jalandhar Doab. Starting his career as a soldier, he rose to be collector of revenue of the village of Kang in the Lohian area, near Sultanpur Lodhi. He obtained half a dozen villages in Kang area on lease and within an year the entire Kang region. After some time Nawab Zakariya Khan, the governor of Lahore, appointed him chief (hakam) of Sultanpur Lodhi. When after Nadir Shah`s invasion (1739) SIKHS started gaining power, Zakariya Khan made Adina Beg Khan nazim (administrator) of the Jalandhar Doab to suppress them. Shrewd as he was, he tried to strengthen his own position by encouraging Sikhs instead of repressing them. Under pressure from Zakariya Khan, he however had to expel them from his dominion. For nonpayment of government dues he was taken into custody under the orders of the governor of Lahore and subjected to torture. On being set free after an year, he was appointed deputy nazim under Shah Nawaz Khan. After Zakariya Khan`s death on l July 1745, his sons, Yahiya Khan and Shah Nawaz Khan contested succession. Adina Beg maintained good relations with both. Shah Nawaz Khan having captured Lahore appointed Adina Beg chief of Jalandhar Doab. Meanwhile, Nadir Shah died on 19 June 1747 and Ahmad Shah Durrani became ruler of Kabul and Qandahar. Shah Nawaz following Adina Beg`s advice invited the Durrani king to march towards the Punjab, warning at the same time the government at Delhi about the Durrani`s invasion. As Ahmad Shah advanced into the country. Shah Nawaz fled towards Delhi. Mu`in ul-Mulk (Mir Mannu), son of Qamar udDin, the chief wazir of the Delhi king, succeeded in checking the invader at Manupur, near SIRHIND. Adina Beg joined hands with Mu`in ul-Mulk and was wounded in the battle. Mu`in ul-Mulk became governor of Lahore, with Kaura Mall as his diwan and Adina Beg as Faujdar of the Jalandhar Doab as before. Sikhs again started plundering the country. Ahmad Shah Durrani launched upon his third incursion into the Punjab (December 1751), this time forcing Mu`in ul-Mulk to surrender. Mu`in remained governor, now on the Durrani`s behalf. He and Adina Beg directed their energies towards quelling the Sikhs. On the festival of Hola Mohalla in March 1753, Adina Beg fell upon SIKH pilgrims at ANANDPUR killing a large number of them. The Sikhs retaliated by plundering villages in the Jalandhar and Bari Doabs. Adina Beg was as quick in coming to terms as he was in opening hostilities. He assigned some of the revenue of his territory to the Sikhs and admitted several of them, including Jassa SINGH Ramgarhia, into his army. Mu`in ul-Mulk died on 3 November 1753, and during the time of his widow, Murad Begam (Mughlani Begam), Adina Beg assumed independent authority in the Doab, extending his influence up to Sirhind (March 1755). The Emperor of Delhi bestowed on him the title of Zafar Jarig Khan. The ruler of Kangra accepted his over lordship. In May 1756, he was appointed governor of Lahore and Multan by the Mughal government of Delhi on payment of an annual tribute of thirty lakh of rupees. Ahmad Shah Durrani came to Mughlani Begam`s help and Adina Beg took refuge in the Sivalik hills. The Afghans reappointed him faujdar of the Jalandhar Doab. During Taimur Shah`s governorship (175758), Adina Beg began to look around for allies with a view to expelling the Afghans. The Sikhs and Adina Beg`s troops joined hands and defeated the Afghans at Mahalpur, in Hoshiarpur district. Adina Beg expressed his gratitude to the Sikhs by presenting a sum of a thousand rupees as homage to the GURU GRANTH Sahib and a lakh and a quarter as protection money for the Jalandhar Doab. Keeping up appearances with the Sikh sardars, he wished to weaken their power and invited to this end Marathas who had taken Delhi to come to the Punjab, offering them one lakh of rupees a day on march. He also persuaded Sikhs to help the Marathas against the Afghans. The Marathas led by Raghunath Rao and accompanied by the forces of the Sikhs and those of Adina Beg entered Lahore in April 1758. Adina Beg got the subahdan of the Punjab at 75 lakh of rupees a year to be paid to the Marathas. The Punjab had now three masters: the Mughals, the Afghans and the Marathas, but in reality only two: Adina Beg and the Sikhs. Adina Beg brooked no rivals, and resumed his campaign against the Sikhs, increasing his armed strength and hiring a thousand woodcutters to clear up the forests in which the Sikhs were wont to seek shelter in times of stress. He laid siege to the Sikh fort of Ram Rauni at AMRITSAR. Before the Sikhs rallied to confront him, Adina Beg succumbed to an attack of colic at BATALA on 10 September 1758. His dead body was buried, honoring his will, at Khanpur. 2 km northwest of Hoshiarpur.

1. Gupta, Hari Ram, History of the Sikhs, vol. II. Delhi, 1978 2. Gandhi, Surjit Singh, Struggle of the Sikhs for Sovereignty. Delhi, 1980 3. Bhagat Singh, Sikh Polity. Delhi, 1978 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.72.215.225 (talk) 17:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a rather long account of General Adina Beg Khan Zafra Jang Bahadar, Ruler of Doaba and Punjab. It has been written from a certain perspective which is amply clear. This is a typical power game. Ascent to power is ruthless and uses all kinds of shenanigans and Machiavellian tactics. History is replete with numerous such heroes. Puritans and Utopians are hard to find. One thing is clear, however. Had he not died, there was no way to snatch power from him. A detailed account appears at http://www.lahorebazaar.com/lahore/dynasty/afghan_period.asp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 20:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Blanking of "Joshua Project" links

Recently an editor going by the name Jeroenvrp has been going around WP blanking citations that reference the Joshua Project. His/her grounds for doing so appear to be that the Joshua Project is an evangelical organization. However, he/she has not questioned the actual validity of the data.

I have undone Jeroenvrp's edits for the reason that reliable data is reliable data, regardless of the source. I have no affiliation with the Joshua Project and am opposed to fundamentalism and evangelical zealotry of all sorts. However, here we have a source for data that cannot be found elsewhere, and so we should use it, while noting the source. Blanking of links, especially without any discussion or consensus, is contrary to the spirit of WP. Nizamarain 00:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

On further consideration, based on information provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#Blanking_of_links, I concur that Joshua Project links should be left out of the article. Nizamarain 17:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nizamarain (talk • contribs)

I understand that Joshua project has fairly authentic information but it has erred at some places. It shows Bhuttas to be 100% Muslims, whereas in the discussion here and from common knowledge Bhutta is a sub caste of Rajput, Jatt or Arain. If we consider the claim of Jatt and Rajput that Bhutta are their sub-caste then there should be Hindu Bhutt also. On the other hand if we accept the Arain claim of Bhutta being a sub-caste of Arain and then dovetail it with their other claim of being a 100% Muslim caste, then perhaps Joshua is right in showing them so. My point is that we don't have to blindly accept what this project says, though it generally says authentic things. —Preceding mmza comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 19:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Arain page dispute April 2010

First Paragrah

Caste

Arain are considered a tribe or baradari or qaum in Pakistan. They intermarry with other Muslims. In general, the Muslim Arains do not follow the rigid caste rule associated with Hindus and Sikhs.

The Arain, is an agricultural community settled mainly in Punjab region of Pakistan and India, with significant numbers also in Sindh, Pakistan. Arain are cosidered a tribe in Pakistan while a caste in India.

Conversion to Islam

The Arains, as other Muslims, were mostlt converted by Sufis.

The Arain tribe started converting to Islam due to Sufi misssionaries, whose shrines dot the landscape, beginning with the conquest of Indus Valley from Multan to Debal by Muhammad bin Qasim in 711 AD.

AlphaGamma1991 (talk) 19:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments on the origins of the Bhuttos

It beggars belief that there are still those who persist with the entirely false claim that the Bhuttos are Arains (and at the very least, when this is such a point of contention, trying to pass off such fanciful claims as fact, is highly problematic); the following is being re-quoted from a previous discussion dealing with this issue:

“...Benazir Bhutto herself, categorically stated in her autobiography that she is descended from Rajputs, and her biographer and close friend, Shyam Bhatia went on record to state that Benazir took pride in her Rajput ancestry. Here, I’ll even reproduce the exact quote:

"But Pinky always took pride in her Rajput ancestry and said it was only during war that India and Pakistan hated each other. But in peace, they liked each other."

See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/rssarticleshow/msid-3061556,prtpage-1.cms

"Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: the Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc."

http://ppiusindh.org/hyderabad-sindh-district-of-sindh-pakistan.html

"Bhutto: Perhaps the most famous of the Sindh Rajputs, they are a clan of the Bhatti Rajputs, and as such are Chandravanshi. They are found in Larkana District, in a cluster of villages such as Mirpur Bhutto and Salar Bhutto north of Larkana city."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_Rajputs

Refer also to the following article:

“The Bhutto clan is rajput, a word of Hindu origin, a hereditary warrior caste which dominates both Indian and Pakistani armies to this day.”

http://blai.newsvine.com/_news/2007/12/30/1193585-shah-nawaz-the-legacy-of-the-bhuttos?groupId=84

www.globalsecurity.org also carries an article on the Bhutto tribe. The following extract, is taken from this article:

“The Bhutto family traces its migration from Jaiselmere in India to Sindh to Setho Khan Bhutto in the fifteenth century AD. The Bhutto family migrated to Sindh during the reign of Mughuls when Kalhoras were ruling in Sindh under the suzerainty of Mughul Emperors. They settled and established themselves in Taluka Ratodero, District Larkana and owned vast tracts of fertile land in the District of Larkana, Jacobabad and Shikarpur. Where rice, cotton and sugarcane was produced in plant. By some accounts the Bhutto family was the biggest and wealthiest landlord in Sindh and their style of living and conducting themselves was totally different from rest of their class in Sindh; they could face any situation any adversary and dignity, and unlike many other landlords they finally believed in pomp, pageantry, dignity and authority.”

“These Rajput converts probably became Muslims in the 18th century. Doda Khan Bhutto headed of the family during the Talpur Dynasty, and then during Charles Napier's rule of Sindh. Doda Khan Bhutto worked to acquire large tracts of land, and was responsible for the vast land ownership of the Bhutto family. By one account Doda Khan Bhutto was described by the British as "the best and most enterprising zamindar in the whole of sindh".

Finally, the renowned historian, Stanley Wolpert, also underlined the Rajput origins of the Bhutto tribe, in his biography of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, namely, Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan:

“Zulfi’s paternal ancestors had before his clan’s long trek been Hindu Rajputs...”

http://books.google.com/books?ei=EjQZTIPUMY_64AaJtJ3-Cw&ct=result&id=C-ltAAAAMAAJ&dq=zulfi+bhutto+of+pakistan&q=rajputs#search_anchor

“... and many Rajput warriors, like Zulfi’s progenitor, Sheto converted to Islam...”

http://books.google.com/books?ei=EjQZTIPUMY_64AaJtJ3-Cw&ct=result&id=C-ltAAAAMAAJ&dq=zulfi+bhutto+of+pakistan&q=rajput#search_ancho

Thus please stop regurgitating the same myths and half-truths that are continuously being peddled, and make a mockery of what is supposed to be an encyclopaedic entry. Gill Jat (talk) 21:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Even the Encyclopædia Britannica, opens its entry on Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, with the words:

"Born into a noble Rājpūt family that had accepted Islām, Bhutto was the son of a prominent political figure in the Indian colonial government."

See: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/64265/Zulfikar-Ali-Bhutto Gill Jat (talk) 01:24, 18 June 2010 (UTC)