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June 24

"Taal" language?

Writing a footnote to the article on Edmund Ironside, 1st Baron Ironside tonight, trying to untangle the mystery of just how many languages the man spoke, I came across an article by Harold Nicolson which noted that during the Boer War, he "mastered Afrikaans and Taal". According to my Afrikaans-speaking source, "taal" is merely the Afrikaans word for "language"; it's not a language in its own right. I did find one indication that it might sometimes be used to refer to the creole Tsotsitaal, but this seems to be a twentieth-century urban development and not something he'd be likely to have encountered.

We did consider the possibility that it was garbled - "Afrikaans language" is "Afrikaanse taal", which might have been misheard or misread as "Afrikaans and Taal" - but the author was English, writing about a personal acquaintance of his; I can't imagine the story having been passed onto him in Afrikaans!

So... was there likely to have been a seperate dialect known by this name at the time of the war (1900) or the time of writing (1940)? Is our author just confused? Any suggestions appreciated. Shimgray | talk | 01:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

These results mention an acquaintance of Churchill from the same period speaking Taal and Afrikaans (or "the Kaffir language") I think Taal is the early form of Tsotsitaal or Fly-Taal. While Afrikaans was seen as a slow development from Dutch via Cape Dutch and was the prestige language, Taal was a creole with a large dose of Dutch and far more slangy. Your count of languages depends entirely on your assessment of their armed forces. meltBanana 03:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that - it's good to see someone else used them distinctly! Some success in the OED today - "...in English, ‘the taal’, spec. applied to the Cape Dutch, or Dutch patois spoken in South Africa", all citations c. 1900 +- a few years. It seems "taal" was used for Cape Dutch to distinguish it from the other branch of what would become Afrikaans, or possibly just synonymous for both. The term appears in general use in English simultaneously with "Afrikaans" - which was previously just called Dutch, low Dutch, etc -

As to Fly-Taal or Tsotsitaal, I'm not sure they do link up - per this, it looks like a mostly urban dialect among black speakers, whilst the original source has him using Taal to pass himself off as a Boer farmer. Shimgray | talk | 12:49, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

This 1906 book chapter talks about two kinds of "Taal:" the common vernacular spoken by Afrikaners, and an artificial Dutchified Taal taught in schools and used in some written works. Not sure which would be called "Afrikaans" in your source, if this is the two-language situation it refers to. --Cam (talk) 13:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

There is a very brief Taal article. John Buchan refers to it several times in Greenmantle, e.g., "I shall talk Dutch and nothing else. And, my hat! I shall be pretty bitter about the British. There's a powerful lot of good swear-words in the taal." Zoonoses (talk) 12:58, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Future languages of Wikipedia

As far as I know, new languages, before becoming official versions of Wikipedia, are stored in an "incubator" until they are big enough. Is there somewhere a list of languages that will be admitted in the Wiki family in the near future? --151.51.25.173 (talk) 16:35, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

m:Requests for new languages is probably what you want. It doesn't seem super-organized for the outsider but there are links to various language committee topics in a box toward the top of the page. Meta:Language proposal policy is the policy page, and has links to the incubator. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

meta:Requests_for_new_languages is the place to discuss things; however, more proposals get shiot down than accepted these days... AnonMoos (talk) 17:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

There are only a finite number of languages in this world, so I'd imagine that the number of languages not included in Wikipedia will become fewer and fewer, and the ones remaining will be less likely to have a willing and able population large enough to support their Wikipedia. Falconus^{p t c} 05:00, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I will propose the number of active Wikipedia's will actually begin to decrease in the next 50 years. --mboverload@ 23:22, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

term for hypocritical situation

What would be the term for a situation in which a restaurant called itself Healthy Eats but served only foods that came with lots of carcinogens produced by the manner in which the "healthy" ingredients were prepared? 71.100.2.16 (talk) 20:17, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I would call it an irony? "Hypocritical" implies intent, ie: Healthy Eats knows the way it prepares food causes carcinogens but does nothing about it. --Kvasir (talk) 20:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

A misnomer?—msh210℠ 20:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

It could be a lot of things, probably depending on intent, degree, the law, and other factors. It could be false advertising or misrepresentation, for instance. It could be exaggeration or impossible to quantify (as in "world's best pizza"). It might be simple ignorance. It could be ironic. It could be tongue-in-cheek. Exploding Boy (talk) 20:30, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

In this case I think the situation is one in which the business name is being used indirectly to dispel the fact that fried foods have multiple health issues in order to continue serving fat and carcinogen ladened fried food. 71.100.2.16 (talk) 20:46, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Fraudulent labeling? (On the other hand, the sentence "He may be skinny, but he is a healthy eater" doesn't necessarily refer to modern notions of health). ---Sluzzelin talk 22:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

See Greenwash#"Six Sins of Greenwashing".—Wavelength (talk) 23:33, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

...ah, perhaps healthwashing then. 71.100.2.16 (talk) 16:10, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

June 25

Mensch from German or Yiddish?

How can you know whether the word "mensch" had migrated from Yiddish or German? The Wikipedia article linked above claims it was from Yiddish, however, the original word in Yiddish is "Mentsch" a little bit farther apart than the German word "Mensch."--Quest09 (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

People putting together dictionaries take a look at the first recorded usages of words in the English language. For example, the OED gives the first recorded usage of "mensch" in English as a 1930's quote: "Dot mensch certainly knew his bissness..and look at all the Yehudim here too!" From context, we can see that it was Yiddish speakers, rather than people taking it from German, who initially introduced "mensch" into English. (Note that the Yiddish "mentsch" is itself derived from the Middle High German "mensch".) -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 17:19, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Another clue is that the usual meaning of this word in English—a decent, ethical person—is a meaning specific to Yiddish. In German, the word just means "person". I don't ever hear it used in English in that generic sense. Marco polo (talk) 17:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I would translate "Mensch" with "human". If I have to say "person" in German, then I would just say "Person". Rimush (talk) 19:35, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

You would translate Wie viele Menschen erkranken in Deutschland jährlich an Krebs? as "How many humans get cancer each year in Germany?"? I wouldn't. I'd say "people", which functions as the plural of "person". I suppose the German could have said Wie viele Leute erkranken... but that sounds less formal somehow. +Angr 19:52, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

There's no "one-word-fits-all-cases" when translating. "Humans" doesn't work in that specific case when translating into English (it works in other languages), but that doesn't mean it's not the right meaning of the word. That being said, I should let everybody know that I'm neither a (pro-)translator nor a linguist. Rimush (talk) 19:57, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

June 26

classical lanquages

What are the classical lanquages in the world? how many are they? What is the criteria? thank you124.43.25.100 (talk) 03:40, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Classical language should be helpful. Maybe also sacred language and literary language. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Could I respectfully point out that 'criteria' is plural and 'criterion' is singular. Peace. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 06:44, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Proverbial translation

I was trying to translate this proverbial statement into Japanese, but it has a more complex make-up than I'm used to working with (I'm barely learning the language), so I was wondering if someone can help. The statement is: "A cloud does not know why it moves in just such a direction and at such a speed, it feels an impulsion . . . this is the place to go now. But the sky knows the reasons and the patterns behind all clouds, and you will know, too, when you lift yourself high enough to see beyond horizons." Filosojia X Non(Philosophia X Known) 06:25, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, see register (linguistics)--we need to know what register you're translating it into. Is it for a formal setting? A homework assignment? How will you be evaluated? The reason I ask is that if it's only for a homework assignment...or for an informal setting such as trying to speak in Japanese to your Japanese significant other's non-English speaking relatives...then I suggest breaking up the statements into short, easy to translate clauses.

Moreover, is the English word "that" implicit in the ellipsis above?--达伟 (talk) 21:44, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

[Note to Dawei, not to the OP]: To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's necessary in this case to know what the register is - it's implicit in the original English, as far as I'm concerned. Common sense would dictate that this kind of 'proverbial statement', as the OP calls it, would be used in a formal or semi-formal setting, and not, for example, when ordering a burger and fries at MacDonalds or having a friendly chat to your in-laws. Even if it were used in the latter case, it would still be said in the same way. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Verdun

How is Verdun pronounced in (American) English? Is it Ver-doon or Ver-duhn? Dismas|^(talk) 17:17, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

-Dun, rhymes with "-sun." --- OtherDave (talk) 17:55, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Dismas|^(talk) 01:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

French speakers (who never pronounce anything properly) would also not pronounce the final "n" but hint at it in a nasal sort of a way. A linguist might be able to tell you the correct name for this. Most people in the UK would make an attempt to imitate this with varying degrees of success. Alansplodge (talk) 16:41, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

In French it's [vɛʁdœ̃], but in most dialects /œ̃/ merged with /ɛ̃/. English /ʌ/ as in "sun" does not have the quality of either of these vowels, nor is it the closest approximation (/ɛŋ/ as in "strength" would do better). The OP asked for English pronunciation however, not French.—Emil J. 17:54, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I would argue that American English rarely seems to use true /ʌ/ for stressed vowel positions and instead uses a mildly-tensed /ə/ central vowel. British English, or whatever dialects still use /ʌ/, would probably be wiser to use stressed /ə/ in this case, else sound like W Bush with his /ɑɪj.ræɛːk/ (Ay-raaak with extra-Texan) for Iraq. SamuelRiv (talk) 05:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Chinese word Gui (歸)

Gui (歸) apparently has two distinct meanings: 1) Return 2) One article says this:

In Chinese, the word gui (return) means more than a reverse movement. It also implies a reconversion of allegiance and renewed pledge of obedience, specifically to those who had previously deviated from the norm, but then came back to comply. For example, the words guihua (return and absorb) and guishun (return and obey) were used to describe the incorporation of ethnic minorities or rebels by the authorities.

So it seems like a euphemism for 'submission'. Does anyone have access to a scholarly Chinese dictionary that explains the second meaning and provides sources? The one dictionary I have just says 'return'. I found this entry about Old Chinese on google books, but the description is very brief and didn't mention anything about the minorities. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:57, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't have time to read thru the 文言文 here, but the Kangxi dictionary has an entry for gui...going from right to left, it's the 7th character entry on the page (it's the second character in the second row going from right to left)...it appears it lists the character in two forms folllowed by a definition but I don't have time to figure it out: http://www.kangxizidian.com/kangxi/0578.gif --达伟 (talk) 21:48, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't sound like a "distinct" meaning to me, just an extra connotation added to the basic meaning. I'm not sure if it has that connotation when used alone (as opposed to as part of compound words that carry that connotation...and not all of them do, for instance, in addition to your examples, Chinese people who study/work abroad and then come home are sometimes jokingly called 海归, which is homophonous with 海龟 "sea turtle). rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:31, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

For the sake of splitting hairs, perhaps, what the Ghostexorcist describes could probably be called different "senses" of the word in lexicography--they needn't be black-or-white absolute dichotomies, but are still potentially different uses of the word. Either way, the question is when is the "return to obedience" or "return to subimssion" connotation present, and when is there merely a concept for physical return (e.g. 海归)? To add to the debate, Ghostexorcist, you may or may not realize that gui also has another conotation, that of "belonging," for instance in the terms 归属/归属感. At the same time--I'm just speculating--it may be the case that the obedience/submission connotation is present NOT because of the gui itself, but only because of the addition of a new element as above (the 化 in 归化 or the 顺 in 归顺).--达伟 (talk) 09:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

The reason I asked is because I am writing a book review for a Chinese history forum newsletter. The book is about the Kaifeng Jews of China. The stone inscription erected by them in 1489 CE states: 進貢西洋布於宋, 帝曰: 歸我中夏，遵守祖風。The author of the book I am reviewing believes the Jews originally settled in Han China and were later driven out by the anti-foreign sentiment in the late Tang. They only returned when the second Song emperor invited foreign scholars to China. However, the vast majority of researchers (past and present) favor a Song Dynasty entry. (Yes, I know about the existence of Jews in Tang China; they are believed to be different from the Kaifeng variety.) Albert Dien of Stanford University said “gui in that context does not mean return, but rather to have come to one's proper place, as subservient to the state. The word was often used in seals given to various minority peoples on the borders meaning they were now loyal." --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

June 27

Phonetic transcription of Norwegian

Can anyone give me an IPA transcription of the Norwegian lyrics to this piece? I tried to write one myself using an online Norwegian dictionary, but I don't actually speak Norwegian and the words are in an archaic Danishized orthography, so it was rather difficult. Thanks. 76.204.127.175 (talk) 01:35, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Your source indicates that the song was published in 1914, but it is not written in Norwegian Riksmål according to the 1907 ortography. It's closer to contemporary Danish than Norwegian. decltype (talk) 11:47, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

What's wrong with this sentence?

The sentence is: "I don't know Santa Claus doesn't exist". It seems to contain some kind of logical error or possibly even self-contradiction, but I'm not sure how to describe it. 69.109.58.84 (talk) 02:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

It makes sense but it sounds horrible to my ears. I would say something like "I don't know if Santa Claus exists" but then that's not saying exactly the same thing. Dismas|^(talk) 02:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

"whether" is better than "if" in that context, since it's a yes/no choice (there's an unspoken "...or not", and saying "whether or not" is far better than "if or not"). Grutness...wha? 01:49, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Seems OK to me. Maybe a "that" could go after "know", but it's not essential. That's grammatically. But if you're talking about the truth value of the sentence, I still see no issue. If he did exist, there would be evidence; but the reverse does not apply - there is no evidence for the non-existence of something. Maybe he doesn't exist, but the best we can ever say is that we don't know that for certain, and what you said covers that well. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 02:35, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with it, it's just infelicitous if you drop it out there with no context. Given the right context, it can be perfectly normal. (For instance, "You don't have any proof that Santa Claus exists" "well, yeah, but I don't know he doesn't exist...".) rʨanaɢ (talk) 02:41, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Nothing wrong, Kissinger speaks like that all the time. :-) PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 20:47, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

In which case, there's plenty wrong with it! ;) Grutness...wha? 01:49, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Translation; English -> Lakota

What would be the translations of the Golden Eagle (a leadership program at the Dane G. Hansen Scout Reservation that is based of the traditions and customs of the Native Americans) names "Storm Caster" (Caster in this case meaning "someone who casts") and "Beautiful Rose" into Lakota? Also, what would be the pronunciations of the translations? Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 04:47, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Big band furniture

Typically the musicians in a "big band" of the Swing era would sit behind a sort of waist-high desk, usually decorated with the bandleader's initials, as seen in this photo of British POWs in a camp in WWII-era Germany. Does that piece of furniture have a colloquial name? "Music desk" doesn't strike me as having entered the common parlance and I don't have any period literature handy. -- Deborahjay (talk) 05:40, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Isn't just a music stand? Exploding Boy (talk) 05:47, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Not according to the Music stand page which describes the distinction, albeit entirely unsourced. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:31, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

These manufacturers of the things simply call them music stands, although an often-used name for them seems to be "band fronts" (as a Google search shows). Deor (talk) 12:21, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

We call em either 'music desks' or stands. I think the term 'desk' is more descriptive of this sort of stand.--RampantHomo (talk) 23:46, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Vietnamese "ph" instead of "f"

In Vietnamese orthography, the letters "ph" are used to represent the voiceless labiodental fricative. I was wondering why whoever decided on that spelling system (Alexander de Rhodes, was it?) chose "ph" instead of just using "f", which isn't used for anything else in Vietnamese and which I'd have thought would be the simpler, more obvious choice. Have there been changes in language which would explain it, or was it just a stylistic decision? -- 203.97.105.173 (talk) 07:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

As a side note, Alexandre de Rhodes made prominent contributions, yet he was working on top of an already substantial amount of scholarship and lexicography of Vietnamese done by the Portuguese missionaries--达伟 (talk) 09:18, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I've often wondered this myself, and I don't have an answer. One possibility that has occurred to me (but I have no idea if it's right or not) is that the sound in question may have been /pʰ/ at the time the orthography was devised (just as ‹th› in Vietnamese is /tʰ/ to this day) but it has since changed to /f/ (a very common sound change, which also happened within the attested history of Greek and in the prehistory of the Italic languages like Latin). However, this is pure conjecture on my part. +Angr 18:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Pronouncing s like sh, e.g. in "last" year - pronounced like: "lasht" year, in some American accents.

Note that I'm not talking about the phenomenon of Yod-coalescence, like in "assume" (which may be pronounced like "eshoom" in Australia and NZ and also in Cockney), but rather about words like "last" year, which have nothing to do with Yod-coalescence, and are nevertheless pronounced - in a few American accents - as if the "s" were "sh". Do you know of some more details about this phenonemon, mainly about its geography in US (or in any other part of the English speaking world), and about the phonological conditions for it to occur? Wikipedia says nothing, as far as I know. HOOTmag (talk) 18:02, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Living in the US, I haven't really heard this phenomenon, except prior to a word that begins with yod, as in your example: "last year"--the yod from "Year" probably triggers a patalatization of the s in "last."--达伟 (talk) 19:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I've never heard it, except from those with ill-fitting dentures, in any of Canada, the U.S., Australia, New Zealand, England or Scotland. Bielle (talk) 19:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I've heard it a lot, mainly from ex-President Bush, and from many other Americans, even when the next word does not begin with a yod. Here is a video, in which you can hear the guy say, at 1:22: "and I've been asked to talk about whether there's a losht (=lost) generation of workers or not, well here's the answer to that: there could be, unlesh (=unless) you prepare otherwise...". The first word ("losht"=lost) is a stronger evidence (than the second one), since the next word begins with no yod. HOOTmag (talk) 20:04, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it's just my ill-fitting hearing aids.:-) Bielle (talk) 20:36, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

you're kidding, but I'm serious. Do you, like me, hear him say "losht", "unlesh" ??? HOOTmag (talk) 20:40, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Previous ref-desk thread that may be of interest. Deor (talk) 21:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah, they mentioned also "shtrong", which I forgot. HOOTmag (talk) 22:04, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I tend to think that this is a feature of some individuals' speech (isn't Sean Connery rather famous for sh-ing his s′s?) rather than a feature of any American dialect or "accent". Deor (talk) 23:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

According to Philadelphia dialect#Consonants (permanent link here), "the sibilant /s/ is palatalized to [ʃ] (as in she) before /tɹ/. Thus, the word streets might be pronounced "shtreets" [ʃtɹits]." See also Phillyspeak and search for "Shtreets".—Wavelength (talk) 00:22, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

As an American in the Southeast, I find both pronunciations ("last" "lasht") to be perfectly acceptable before a word starting with "y". In fact, I suspect I may do this myself. Falconus^{p t c} 04:54, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Just a side note...in the video above, you do realize g in generation is an affricate, which can cause palatalization. Also, the shtrong or shtreet ("strong" or "street"), etc. pronunciation is common in the New York City area a swell; moreover shtrength ("strength") seems to be widespread throughout the United States.--达伟 (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Chinese reading help

In regard to the Chinese name of Diho Square (顶好广场) in the Houston Chinatown - I know the readings of the first, third, and fourth characters are dǐng, guǎng, and chǎng. But what tone of "hao" (second character) is used? WhisperToMe (talk) 19:07, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

The tone is third: hǎo. However, because of this, this changes the pronunciation in this combination of the word dǐng to second (i.e., díng) and that of guǎng to second also (guáng). See tone sandhi.--达伟 (talk) 19:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I see - thank you very much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 20:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Difference.

What is the actual difference between sodomy and buggery. My BF says there isnt any.--RampantHomo (talk) 23:43, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Buggery refers specifically to anal intercourse (noting that it is slang, and may not always be used in precisely that way). Sodomy is a broader term which refers to any non-vaginal form of intercourse, including oral and manual stimulation. If you've given/gotten a blowjob, you are, technically speaking, a sodomite but not a bugger (buggerer? not up on British English). --Ludwigs2 00:56, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

... Sodomy is even more general, including "inter-species intimacies" (how's that for a euphemism?) often unfairly attributed to farmers in isolated areas. Dbfirs 07:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

...giving a new twist to the time-honored term, animal husbandry. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

In these gender-neutral times, it's strange that hasn't morphed into 'animal adultery'. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:45, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Guys, I need to point out that the term 'animal' is considered offensive. the correct phrasing is "differently-speciesed individuals". --Ludwigs2 20:32, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not that new a twist. As long ago as 1959, Tom Lehrer told about the doctor whose "educational career began interestingly enough in agricultural school, where he majored in animal husbandry, until they caught him at it one day". +Angr 20:42, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

June 28

Crossword clue?

"Possess, to Burns", 3 letters. The answer is apparently "HAE". What does this even mean? Dismas|^(talk) 01:12, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

In Scots (and thus in many poems by Robert Burns), hae means "have". As in English, it is used as an auxiliary verb (see Scots Wha Hae, for instance) and as a verb meaning "possess". Deor (talk) 01:18, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah! I see now, thanks! Dismas|^(talk) 03:00, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

... and, of course, hae just represents the phonetic spelling of the Scottish and northern English pronunciation of the standard English word have. It is not a separate word except to ardent Scots (who, strangely, do not have a separate army or navy). Dbfirs 07:45, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

You sure about that? The Scots Language article states "The UK government now accepts Scots as a regional language and has recognised it as such under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages". 173.66.161.221 (talk) 10:59, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

The UK government makes decisions for political reasons, not linguistic ones. --Tango (talk) 23:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I wrote my response knowing that however I worded it, someone would come along and take me to task either for considering Scots a dialect or for considering it a language. As I tend to think of it as a dialect myself, I thought it polite to acknowledge the alternative view. (And Scotland certainly has had an army and a navy.) Deor (talk) 11:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

And there is a Scottish army even now. Warofdreams talk 16:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh! In that case, I'd better be careful what I write about Scottish dialects of English! However, being highlanders, they would presumably defend the Scottish Gaelic language, not the northern English dialect of Lallans! Dbfirs 08:36, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

There's even a Scots Wikipedia. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 18:57, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

... and one that isn't a joke! Dbfirs 19:46, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

AAVE - Southern American English

I saw a documentary about New Orleans recently, and they interviewed a white ship captain. As a white guy who has spoken AAVE himself (because everybody at school spoke it), it seemed to me that this guy was speaking AAVE as well. I understand from the AAVE article that it has a close relationship with Southern American English, so could this be the only explanation? Is the Southern English in Louisiana so close to AAVE? The pronunciation, the grammar, everything seemed distinctly AAVE (if I wouldn't have seen him, I would've guessed that he's African-American). Maybe someone from the South could shed some light on this. Rimush (talk) 10:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

For those who just casually read RD/L and aren't even amateur linguists, here's a link: African American Vernacular English I had no idea what AAVE is. Dismas|^(talk) 10:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

My bad, I figured everyone here is an expert :D Rimush (talk) 10:29, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

What is distinctive about AAVE is not the pronunciation but the grammar. The pronunciation of AAVE varies quite a bit regionally and can be identical with non-AAVE pronunciation in the same region. I live in Boston. Thirty years ago, when I heard AAVE, it was usually with an eastern Carolinian accent (since most African Americans in Boston migrated from that region in the 1950s and 60s and schools remained de facto segregated into the 70s). Now I hear AAVE spoken with the characteristic Boston accent. So the question is whether AAVE grammatical features are in widespread use among white New Orleans residents. Students in the public schools in New Orleans are predominantly black, so it wouldn't be surprising for a working-class white guy who went to public school in New Orleans to have picked up AAVE. Marco polo (talk) 12:49, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

There are some parallels to white Americans speaking AAVE. In the UK you can occasionally meet white people from the Caribbean who speak Caribbean English (that article needs improving). A separate phenomenon, but also perhaps of interest, is Multicultural London English. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:54, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I would probably speak Caribbean English too, if I would have lived in the Caribbean. I immediately pick up the local coloring of the language: I speak AAVE (because everybody at my high school spoke it), New York Dialect (because I lived in NYC - and which kinda took over from AAVE after I left the US, interestingly), German with an Austrian accent (because I live in Vienna), and Spanish with a Caribbean pronunciation (because my friends in NYC were mostly Dominican) - Caribbean Spanish made me feel like I was hearing my mother tongue when watching TV Canaria (in Canarian Spanish). Rimush (talk) 09:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd be interested to know whether in New York you get a merging of AAVE and New York dialect that parallels the London situation (Jamaican English, Cockney and South Asian accents that has coalesced into MLE? In other words is there a new kind of New York English that young people who have grown up in a multicultural environment speak? Itsmejudith (talk) 17:59, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I think you do get a kind of a merging. I went to a predominantly-AAVE speaking high school (Hispanic students spoke AAVE as well) in NYC, without having lived in an English-speaking country before (I spoke some English, but I guess I had a sort of neutral accent). I quickly picked up AAVE, but when I look at the New York dialect article on Wikipedia, I realize that I have typical NY pronunciation (but I can consciously pronounce words the "AAVE way" as well, for example "aks" instead of "ask"). I also use some NY dialect syntax (for example "She asked why don’t you want any instead of the standard She asked why you don’t want any"), and the grammar is (if speaking freely to peers) heavily AAVE-influenced (if speaking in a formal situation, then I use standard AmE grammar). As for the vocabulary, I was influenced more by TV shows than by either AAVE or New York dialect :P (though I did pick up some few words from both). Rimush (talk) 18:05, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thoribism

What does thoribism mean? Is it a real word? What's its etymology?--151.51.25.173 (talk) 11:09, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Whatever it is, it returns 0 hits when queried in Google. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Probably a spelling mistake for something else. Some context might help; where have you seen it?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 14:10, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Maybe there is someone famous with the surname 'Thorib', and they have an -ism named after them? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:25, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Google does yield nine results for "Thorybism", apparently a term coined by parapsychogist René Sudre to describe "Poltergeist disturbances". I also found "telethoryby" for "a racket produced at a distance" [1]. The terms seem to be derived from thorybos (or something similar), Greek for "noise". ---Sluzzelin talk 12:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

No idea on the etymology, but this site defines it as: " Psychophonics carried to paroxystical extremes. These are generally attributed to such "noisy" spirits that the sounds they produce are virtually unbearable." BTW, "psychophonics" apparently means " An audible and recordable manifestation of voices and other sounds of a mysterious origin, generally attributed to disembodied entities." Paroxystical, another uncommon word, means uncontrolled crying by an otherwise healthy child less than three months old (see [2]). Zoonoses (talk) 22:58, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Working as a French-Spanish translator?

Where can I find a job position as a French-to-Spanish online translator? --Belchman (talk) 21:24, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I trust by "online translator" you don't mean you're looking for work in machine translation, since as far as I know humans don't get to do that. I'd say the best place to find work translating from French into Spanish would be either a French-speaking country or a Spanish-speaking country, although of course customers in other countries will also need people to translate in that direction from time to time. Your chances of finding such a job are much better if you're a native Spanish speaker, though some translation companies don't insist on translators being native speakers of the target language, if they have native-speaking copy editors on staff. +Angr 21:34, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I meant something like "freelance translator that works through the Internet". --Belchman (talk) 23:25, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Check out this guy's Youtube account (http://www.youtube.com/user/irishpolyglot) and especially his blog (http://www.fluentin3months.com/). He is a profesional translator and does most of his work online. In particular, read thru his blog and you should find somewhere -- perhaps a posting from several months ago -- his description of becoming an online translator --达伟 (talk) 23:59, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Question on a Japanese word -- 涯

Does the Japanese word 涯 mean "end", "fight", both, or other ? Various online translation systems seem to disagree. 66.102.199.100 (talk) 22:17, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, in Chinese it means "shore, border, cliff, river bank"....that might be at least partial evidence to deduce the Japanese meaning...--达伟 (talk) 23:55, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

In Japanese, it means shore or horizon. It's mainly used in some poetic compound words, as far as I can tell. By the way "online translation systems" are rubbish. Just look up the kanji in a kanji dictionary if you want to know what it means. Paul Davidson (talk) 00:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks. To err is human, to really foul things up requires an online translation system. :) 66.102.199.100 (talk) 01:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

June 29

Argumentative phrase

I'm having trouble thinking of a phrase about someone taking liberties with research. It has something to do with beginning with a conclusion and hammering the puzzle places into place to fit their own picture. That might be the saying itself, but I'm sure I've heard a more eloquent version of it somewhere. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 09:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

How about "hammering a square peg into a round hole", or vice versa? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:45, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

How about "twisting the facts to suit X"?

“I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, A Scandal in Bohemia, 1891.

Or possibly "putting the cart before the horse"? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:11, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Cherry picking, perhaps? Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 12:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Dunno about a phrase but it put me in mind of Procrustes. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:39, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

A similar thought came to Lord Justice Brennan when reviewing an important British legal case (see Computer Misuse Act 1990), where he described prosecutors' attempts to try a novel crime under an ancient and seemingly quite irrelevant law as a "Procrustean attempt". The term is apt, but I fear every time you use it you'll have to have a page of Bullfinch around to explain it to just about anyone (bar TammyMoet and Brennan LJ). -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 13:52, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

think you're after something like argument from consequences or affirming the consequent in terms of pure logic. In research it's called massaging or fudging data, at least when it's done grossly. --Ludwigs2 13:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Translation from Finnish

Google translate thinks kaikki on mahdollista kunnes hyeena laulaa ja louskuttaa leukojaan means everything is possible until the hyena sings and champs one's teeth and jaws. The bold part sounds weird even to my English. Fix? I know Finnish so I know the meaning is about correct. --192.100.124.218 (talk) 11:48, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The OED gives "To make a biting and chewing action or movement with the jaws and teeth," and "To gnash (the teeth), close (the jaws) with violence and noise. Obs" as definitions for champ as a verb. I'm familiar with the term "to champ at the bit" meaning to be impatient, but had always assumed it was a regional pronunciation. The only fix I would make to the translation would be "and champs its teeth and jaws" if that would agree with the original Finnish. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 12:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

It does. Notice the lack of a pronoun in the genitive case before the word leukojaan ("...'s jaws"). This definitely means that it's the hyena's own jaws it's champing. If it were someone else's jaws then the owner of the jaws would have to be mentioned. JIP | Talk 18:56, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Use of "me"

Which is correct as a caption to a picture of three people walking down the road? "John, Jim and me walking down the road" or "John, Jim and I walking down the road"? Any technical rules much appreciated. Thanks, Ericoides (talk) 13:38, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I would say the first is fine. It gave me pause for thought as of course "John, Jim and me were walking down the road" would be incorrect in a proper sentence, but in the case of a caption which is not a full sentence "me" is fine. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 13:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

(ec) "me". Taking the others out of the phrase leaves you with "(This is a picture of) me walking down the road." Bazza (talk) 13:56, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

As a rule of thumb, use the word you would use if the other names weren't there. "John, Jim and I walked down the road" (because you'd say I walked down the road), but "that's when Douglas met John, Jim and me" (because you'd say that's when Douglas met me). --Ludwigs2 13:57, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks all. Bazza 7, I like your reasoning. Ericoides (talk) 14:12, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I is the subject, me is the object. Compare he/she and him/her: "He loves her", "she loves him". As suggested, the easiest solution is to take the others out of the sentence:

"(John, Jim and) I (were) was walking down the road".

"Who was walking down the road?"

"(John, Jim and) Me." Hayden120 (talk) 14:33, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I know all that stuff, but I didn't include it in my reply because it's not relevant, since we are talking about a phrase (a caption) not a sentence. Bazza7 is right, you apply the same principle to a phrase and the answer comes out "me". --Viennese Waltz ^talk 14:36, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I apologise. Yes, "me" is correct. I just thought I would explain the principle behind it. Oh well, maybe it will help someone else. Best regards, Hayden120 (talk) 14:38, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

You can avoid the question if you simply name the person represented by the first-person pronoun. Also, if someone looks at the picture 100 years later, it will be easier to identify that person from a name than from a pronoun.—Wavelength (talk) 15:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

But that wouldn't be appropriate if the photograph is to appear in, for example, an autobiography or memoir. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 15:37, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Quite. There are ways of avoiding it (one way would be " Walking down the road with John and Jim", where it is obvious that "I" am accompanying them, either because I am so well known or because of other images in the material), but this is an argument at work and this construction is the one under scrutiny; a colleague is suggesting that it must be "John, Jim and I walking down the road" because "I" is one of the subjects of the verb "walking". In a full sentence that would be undeniable, but this is a caption, and I can't find any eg Hart's Rules-type authorities that give grammatical guidance on the question. The best so far, as stated, is the assertion that a portion of the sentence is implicitly understood – ie (This is a picture of). This means that "I" is no longer the subject and "me" is correct usage. Ericoides (talk) 15:40, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

German vocabulary question

What are the differences in connotation or denotation between the words Etage, Ebene, Geschoss/Obergeschoss, and Stock, which all mean floor or story? Thanks, Reywas92^Talk 15:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about semantic differences, but I can tell you that (a) Geschoss is Southern German/Austrian according to Collins, and (b) I never heard Ebene used in this sense when I studied German (unlike the other three), and neither Collins nor dict.leo.org mention this usage either. Lfh (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

"Etage" is borrowed from French. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:33, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Here in Austria (Vienna): 1) Etage is rarely used; 2) I don't think Ebene is used for floor or story anywhere in the German-speaking world, though I might be wrong (I am, see below); 3) Geschoß (note long vowel and thus ß) is used here in three forms: Kellergeschoß (basement, a lot of times just Keller), Erdgeschoß (first floor in the US), Obergeschoß (upper floor, usually used in department stores), Dachgeschoß (attic), Zwischengeschoß (a "floor between the floors", Mezzanine, though Mezzanin in German usually refers to a Hochparterre, a "higher" US first floor) - you also hear Tiefgeschoß, which is used as an alternative for Kellergeschoß or (more rarely) for Tiefparterre (a "lower" US first floor); 4) Stock is used in most buildings for the floors (for example at the University of Vienna, or in apartment buildings), except for the ones which use "Geschoß" Rimush (talk) 17:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

See de:Geschoss_(Architektur)#Wortherkunft. According to that article, "Geschoss" orginally referred to ballon-framed buildings, where horizontal beams were "shot" into the frame ("eingeschossen"). "Stockwerk" has its origins in jettied buildings. It referred to the actual timber material and could be translated as "processed rootstock" or "processed timber", I guess. According to the same article, "Geschoss" is today's terminus technicus in architecture, while "Stockwerk" and "Etage" are used colloquially (and confusingly, as, technically, the number of Stockwerke needn't be equal to the number of "Geschosse", and, in French, the "étages" are usually counted from the second floor on). I have seen the word "Ebenen" used in at least three German-speaking countries, particularly in real-estate ads. Often, it refers to levels that needn't be directly over each other and may include split levels, but the intended meaning can also simply be that of "Geschoss". ---Sluzzelin talk 18:21, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The word Ebene literally means "level", and it is used in German in much the same way that it is used in English. It is not the most usual way to refer to levels of a building (just as we usually call them floors or storeys), but it can be used, often in contexts in which level would be used in English. Marco polo (talk) 19:13, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm slightly confused (I'm not the OP). You say "confusingly, as (...) in French, the "étages" are usually counted from the second floor on." By this, do you mean the ground floor, first floor, second floor system? Because my understanding was that German, like French and British English, also follows this system. We were taught "Erdgeschoß, erster Stock, zweiter Stock...", with "Etage" as a synonym for "Stock", although with the "posh" connotation of being derived from French. Are you saying that, when German uses the word "Etage", it counts the ground floor as "erste Etage"? 86.164.57.20 (talk) 19:24, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

No, I was just reporting what the article said. I agree with what you wrote, and admit that the degree of confusion is perhaps academic. (added later: I was goint to argue that, perhaps, the editors meant that the set ofGeschosse even contains the Erdgeschoss (ground floor) by vocabulary, while no one says Erdetage. I have seen "Grundetage", however, though Parterre seems more fitting when speaking in the context of Etagen). ---Sluzzelin talk 19:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Greek in Gaudy Night

Does anyone here have an older edition of Gaudy Night, preferably one dating from a time when books were put together and proofread by human beings rather than computers? My edition is apparently computer-generated by some software incapable of handling Greek letters, and the two passages where Greek phrases are cited are completely botched up.

The first passage is at the end of Chapter III, the last sentence of the paragraph beginning "And suppose they actually did". The line is: "Bless their hearts, how refreshing and soothing and good they all were, walking beneath their ancient beeches and meditating on ____________ and the finance of Queen Elizabeth."

The second passage is about one-quarter of the way into Chapter XVII, the last sentence of the paragraph beginning "You would have seen through it in any case". The line is: "The great advantage about telling the truth is that nobody ever believes it—that is at the bottom of the ____________________."

In fact, I already have a suspicion as to what they say, so I only need someone to confirm if my suspicion is right. I suspect that "meditating on" is followed by ὂν καὶ μὴ ὄν, and "the bottom of the" is followed by ψευδῆ λέγειν ὡς δεῖ. Can anyone confirm or deny? Thanks. +Angr 19:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a copy of the novel at hand, but this guy's notes to it confirm your first guess. There's a lemma for the second passage but no note, and reproducing the Greek was apparently beyond his HTML abilities. Deor (talk) 20:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that page was one of the sources I used that led me to my suspicions! +Angr 20:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Google books has it, and you're correct on both counts. 213.122.63.97 (talk) 20:53, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

You can get a preview of it on Google Books? I tried that and none of the editions I could find have a book preview. But then, I know that some previews are available in some countries and not in others, so I wouldn't be surprised if you can see things I can't. +Angr 05:39, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

In French: the meaning of l'axe

In French can the word l'axe have the connotation of a front such as in a military context, such as in the phrase "All is clear on the Western Front."LeonidasSpartan (talk) 20:59, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

To clairify the phrase in question is in this sentence: Du 19 au 25 mai 1940 , le 97e effectue des actions retardatrices sur l'axe Péronne - Barleux. I just realized that might help me get the information I am looking for.LeonidasSpartan (talk) 21:03, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The usual translation into English is "the axis." So, the line or route between Peronne and Barleux in your example. Zoonoses (talk) 23:19, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

June 30

non-offensive wordlist

Does anyone know where I can get a wordlist that has all words that could possibly be considered offensive removed? I want to create random passwords and I don't want any embarrassing combinations. (And yes for this application, I do want words and not random characters.) Thanks, Ariel. (talk) 01:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Take your dictionary, and throw it in the trash, and you have removed all possibly offensive words. You don't need an obscure word, especially if you can't think of one. Consider something that would be obscure to others but familiar to you, like maybe a street near your first childhood home or something. Then replace the vowels with special characters and tack 01 on the end of it so you can keep using it by incrementing it after it expires. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:34, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that based on Ariel.'s history, he or she is not doing this for his or her own passwords. Here is a page with links to many general word lists in English. I googled list of curse words and found the Banned Words List, "a resource for web administrators", and this list, which are nowhere near comprehensive; but what I would probably do is use a general word list, select the word(s), look up the selected word in the banned word list, and proceed if it's not banned. Comet Tuttle (talk) 03:52, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's not for my personal password, it's for a web application I'm making. (And I'm He.) Thanks Comet Tuttle, those links are very helpful and exactly what I need. Ariel. (talk) 04:25, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

What is the term for the person (other than a ‘pedant’)

who excessively or over creatively uses verbal for headings in articles? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 01:37, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Your question is a bit confusing, especially the "...uses verbal for..." part. Just a guess though, is verbose the word you're looking for? Dismas|^(talk) 02:40, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you referring to the journalese / headlinese of traditional newspaper headline writers? They were more fond of short words and bad puns than verbosity... AnonMoos (talk) 03:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Is it ‘snap’ or something else?

I think dictionaries do not give good definitions for the word ‘snap’ that is often used for. It is the same or is there any word that refers to a person who, for example, is not in favor to cite any academic references because in the belief that his or her highest achievement can therefore be jeopardized? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 01:37, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

As with your previous question, I understand all the words but they don't make any sense in that order. Could you clarify what you're asking? Dismas|^(talk) 02:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Forearm limp

Hi all -

I am currently hobbling around with a broken ankle. As such, I've been on crutches for the last week, making my arms ache. At home, where I can, I am thus ignoring the crutches and crawling around on hands and knees. After using the crutches, I have an ache in my left shoulder, and as such, when I crawl I am favouring one arm over the other (no, this isn't a call for sympathy - there's a valid question coming up!)

When we favour one leg, we're said to be limping - but I can't think of an equivalent term for favouring one arm. I can't say I "have a limp in my left arm" - it sounds silly. is there an equivalent term for putting less weight on one arm than the other? Grutness...wha? 01:41, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there's an "arm-specific" term. "Favoring" (which you already mentioned) is the only term I can think of that comes close to what you mean, although it can refer to both arms and legs. Fletch the Mighty (talk) 02:14, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, are you digging the crutch into your underarm? Try squeezing it between your upper arm and your body (after consulting with your doctor. I am not qualified to give medical advice, and this isn't any).—msh210℠ 04:33, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

No, but thanks for the suggestion. They're the hand-handle type of crutch, not the under-the-armpit type, but I bruised by collarbone/shoulder area at the same time as I broke my ankle and the added weight on my arms has made that shoulder ache. Grutness...wha? 07:06, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

For some medical terms look in Dyskinesia and Hypokinesia. Ariel. (talk) 04:39, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Left to Right

Arabic is written right to left, so is Persian and Urdu. Are there any other languages that are written right to left ?  Jon Ascton  (talk) 02:28, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Hebrew springs to mind. However, you should bear in mind that Persian and Urdu use Arabic script (albeit slightly modified), so it wouldn't be surprising that they are written in the same direction as Arabic. Uighur and several other languages are like this. Malay used to be written in the Arabic script, as did Swahili, as well as Turkish at some point. Chinese and Japanese, when written from top to bottom, are usually written right to left, too. Ancient Egyptian could be written in any direction, and right to left was not uncommon. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:36, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

And what about Thai ?

Thai is left to right. +Angr 05:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

See boustrophedon for texts that go alternately right-left and left-right. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Writing from left-to-right seems natural, as most people are right-handed, and this lessens the chance of smearing the ink as you go. I wonder why Hebrew and others go from right to left? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:28, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Not all writing is done with ink. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Writing with a hammer and chisel is easier right to left when you're right-handed. +Angr 05:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Any language in the Arabic or Hebrew script (and perhaps others) is written right-to-left. Arabic: aao, acx, aeb, afb, ajp, apc, apd, ar, arq, ary, arz, ayl, ayp, az (though it's in Latin and Cyrillic too), bal, brh, chg, esh, fa, glk, gwc, ha (though it's in Latin too), khw, ks (Devanagari too), ku (Latin too), mzn, ota, pga, pnb, ps, sd, shu, ug (Latin and Cyrillic too), ur. Hebrew: arc, he, lad (Latin too), tmr, yi. (This information comes from wikt:template:langscript.) (Language codes can be looked up lots of places, one way to look up 'az', say, is by checking wikt:template:az.)—msh210℠ 04:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Other right-to-left writing systems besides the Arabic and Hebrew scripts are the Syriac alphabet and the Avestan alphabet. +Angr 05:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Japanese Mole

In Japanese, mole (the animal) is 土竜 もぐら mogura, but its kanjis have the following readings (from Wiktionary): 土 (ground) = ど (do), と (to), つち (tsuchi); 竜 (dragon) = りゅう (ryū), りょう (ryō), ろう (rō), たつ (tatsu). None of these readings seems to be present in mogura. Am I missing something? --151.51.25.173 (talk) 08:32, 30 June 2010 (UTC)