Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
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Ctpnono Continues to Buyllyedit

Cptono Continues to Bully Edit the Beck Page and to post things on my discussion page== I am having serious problems with user Cptnono. He is controlling the glenn beck page, lawyering on the wikiguidelines to eliminate legit. content, and basically assuming control as the managing editor of the page. Further he keeps posting things on my discussion page. I do not want this editor posting on my discussion page, and I would like for someone to investigate his behavior on the Glenn Beck page. I have made a number of complaints and no one has done anything.

He is misusing consensus and applying other policies where they are not actually applicable. If he acted like an equal editor among many, it wouldn't be so bad, but he treats other editors like they are below him, like he has special authority on wikipedia.

Plus he gave me a warning that was unwarranted on my discussion page. I did not violate the policy he cited. And I happen to know that edit disputes are not grounds for a warning. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:00, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

I have not made any personal attacks since being warned. You however have just made another one. Do not comment on contributors like this.[1] An admin already warned you and I warned you since I did not want to drag it to ANI. But you cannot be disruptive on a BLP and you cannot attack other editors. You can open an RFC or (even better) try working on a paragraph regarding his views on Muslims as I have suggested. The edit has more than one editor objecting and you did not make the edit in accordance with the one editor who agreed with you.Cptnono (talk) 23:27, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Bullyediting isn't about personal attacks. It is about enforcing your will onto a page by beating other people over the head with policy guidelines.

You know full well the other objections by editors were little more than "Muslims should be happy to be called terrorists because that is what they are." (I am paraphrasing of course). I looked up the guidelines. My entry cites reliable sources and is neutral and relevant. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:37, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

What is more, though you redacted my claim, I think it is well founded. YOur behavior is absolutely bullyediting. And users on the page have basically expressed their support for beck or his ideas and then gone on to attack including the entry. I don't see the big deal with mentioning that, if people have explicitly come out in support of beck's statements. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:40, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

It was explained to you already by an admin.[2] I have also tried explaining it. You have been provided all of the necessary links and advice. I have also brought this to the edit warring board for the reverts on the BLP.[3]Cptnono (talk) 00:34, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

No you are the only person who has been explaining your position. And you know perfectly well that isn't warranted. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 00:43, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I am the only other person continuing to discuss it. I suppose I could just stop responding as others already have.Cptnono (talk) 00:46, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I suppose you could. Again, we should enter into mediation, as the dispute appears to be between you and me at this point. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 00:48, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

You need to start understanding the comments left to you by others. You have been warned by an admin for attacking other users (yet you continue) and you have had another explain why mediation is not yet appropriate.Cptnono (talk) 00:50, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I haven't been warned as far as I know Cptnono. But its fair to point out, you've been warned more than me about these matters. Mediation is absolutely appropriate, since no valid reason for blocking the material has been provided. Again, I believe this is a misapplication of consensus according to my understanding of the policy (which I've read several times. You simply keep asserting things. But you and are both equal editors on wikiepdia. I feel like you are using a lot of imperatives and acting as though you have more authority than others. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 00:54, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I have already told you that I do not have any authority. You were warned on your talk page by an admin:[4]Cptnono (talk) 00:55, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Then please stop acting like you have authority. You make me very, very uncomfortable. I feel like I am being bullied by you, and that you revertin content that legimately belongs on the page. I received one warning. You have received multiple warnings and complaints. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 01:10, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Notice to anyone following. I have filed an ANI for attempted outing.Cptnono (talk) 03:00, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

And I didn;t do anything of the sort. I woke up today to a warning saying I violated your privacy, and that I had threatened to do so previously. However I was unable to view the content where I supposedly did this. Let me be clear here: I did no such thing. As far as I can figure I was, at most, a little rude, by referring to him using a slang term for "buddy" or "guy", that also happens to be a proper name. I would like to challenge this warning. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:36, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

YOU FUCKING WIN. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:45, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Born2cycle

Resolved

 – Parties have agreed to disengage. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 17:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

• Born2cycle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names (edit | [[Talk:Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I feel that the discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names has become dominated by a single user and thus unproductive. I am requesting that an uninvolved administrator watch the page and intervene if necessary to reset a course to effective action.

My concern is that the behavior of User:Born2cycle will discourage others from leaving an opinion on the two proposed actions against User:Pmanderson. User:Born2cycle neither brought the initial complaint nor made either of the two proposals for disciplinary action. Throughout the discussion, however, User:Born2cycle has engaged in "aggressive behaviours that disrupt the project and lead to unproductive stress and conflict," which WP:CIV expressly prohibits. At least three participants in the discussion have asked User:Born2cycle to stop (here and here and here). Even if User:Born2cycle feels that s/he has made a sincere effort to contribute positively to the discussion, s/he needs to consider why others are reacting badly to his/her tone.

Based on the following criteria at WP:CIV#Identifying incivility, I identify the problematic behavior as follows:

• Taunting or baiting and quoting another editor out of context to give the impression they hold views they do not hold. I responded to the two proposals here (with edit summary) and top left here. It was my view that blocking should be reserved for users who damage the usefulness and credibility of the encyclopedia, and I therefore preferred the proposal to restrict the user's actions (the initial complaint was brought by User:Cplakidas, aka Constantine, who has also endorsed the restriction, not the block). User:Born2cycle conceded that s/he doesn't "know of any articles that have been directly damaged by PMA's behavior," but then kept demanding that I defend my opinion (here and here and here), insisting that the discussion go off-topic to address my views of WP:CIV "in general" (a phrase repeated in at least three different demands).
  • S/he asks: "are you suggesting PMA deserves special consideration, and a 'pass' on abiding by WP:CIVIL as compared to others?" (see third highlighted comment) after I had already stated that I preferred the restriction proposal as a means of correction. This is contrary to the WP:CIV caution about misrepresenting the views of other editors to "give the impression they hold views they do not hold." I said nothing about exempting PMA from anything, nor did I assert that he merited "special consideration."

• Ill-considered accusations of impropriety and belittling a fellow editor. Here I'm accused of dodging a question after I gave a lengthy exposition of what values underlie my view (I consider this irrelevant, but was attempting to comply with a request). In the last comment to me, User:Born2cycle accuses me of "stonewalling and question evasion." These words impugn my credibility as a good-faith editor, though as User:Aldux pointed out, the characterization is untrue. WP:NPA states: "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done."
  • User:Born2cycle continued to malign my credibility at User talk:Aldux#If that's not stonewalling, what is? It is exceedingly bad etiquette to complain about another editor without notification, and this is a form of indirect hounding. If there was a problem with my behavior, an incident notice should have been filed, and I should've been reported. Or he should've brought the discussion to me. My lengthy responses show that I did not "share my opinion and run"; I don't think the matter at hand is a yes or no question; my discourse was not meaningless. I did answer the questions; User:Born2cycle just didn't like my answer.

• Badgering. This is not explicitly mentioned at WP:CIV, but I find hectoring to be uncivil (see also WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT). Surely this long response from me is sufficient explanation of my position, and yet here and here User:Born2cycle demands that I "answer," as if I haven't, and attempts even to dictate what form my reply should take; please note also User:Born2cycle's edit summary marking the sixth posing of a question asked and answered. An editor should not be bullied into shaping her opinion in conformity to another editor's, and these kinds of rhetorical tactics constitute "a studied pattern of incivility."

• Need to have the last word. User:Born2cycle seems reluctant to allow other users to have their say. He stopped posting only when I didn't defend myself after being accused of "stonewalling and question evasion." But simply walking away from this kind of behavior only condones and encourages it to continue: an experienced, highly regarded editor has just posted his opposition to the block and User:Born2cycle has initiated another round of interrogation. (This editor, wiser than I, has not engaged.) Notice that User:Born2cycle does not interrogate users who agree with him; these questions are not posed in the spirit of disinterested inquiry.

Desired outcome. User:Born2cycle's behavior could deter editors from leaving opinions, particularly neutral parties who aren't motivated by either animus or loyalty and who don't want to subject themselves to this kind of aggressive cross-examination. Therefore the desired outcomes are:

• A neutral, uninvolved administrator should watch Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names and intervene if this kind of exchange resumes.
• All or most of the section following my initial comment here on the block proposal up to the next opinion should be placed under a collapsed header, so that it doesn't leave the impression that anyone leaving an opinion contrary to that of User:Born2cycle will be subjected to similar badgering.
• User:Born2cycle should not be allowed to play the role of prosecutor and to dominate a forum designed to solicit a range of opinions.

I plan to leave a notice on the project page, and on the talk page of User:Born2cycle. Thanks for your time. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

tl; dr. Unhelpful forum shopping by Cynwolfe, cf WP:KETTLE and WP:POT. Mathsci (talk) 15:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Diffs demonstrating forum shopping and similar behaviour by Cynwolfe? Nev1 (talk) 15:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

There is already a lengthy public discussion taking place on a subpage of another noticeboard (WP:ANI). There is no need to enlarge that discussion to here, using WP:CIVIL as an excuse. My own understanding is that the discussion there concerning blocks is totally irrelevant, as there is no prospect of a block, The best idea is for both users to disengage and go their separate ways. In fact both of them are making contributions in good faith and there seems to a large degree of agreement between the two of them. If they want to discuss things further, they should both stay on-topic and restrict themselves to the proposed topic ban. Archiving the unhelpful discussion on a one month block might be the easiest solution here. Mathsci (talk) 16:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Specific diffs would help. This is about Born2cycle's behaviour, not Pmanderson's which should be the primary topic of the other thread. Born2cycle is certainly being quite tenacious and is spilling over onto other talk pages. Nev1 (talk) 16:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad Mathsci agrees with my desired outcomes. I haven't filed one of these before, so apologies for errors of procedure. It was my understanding that I was required to inform all those who were involved; therefore, I posted a notice at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names, because the number of people who have contributed there made it impractical to post notices on individual talk pages. I thought it would be "forum shopping" if I made my own selection of editors to inform. I'm not asking for any action to be taken against User:Born2cycle; I just want to make sure an uninvolved administrator keeps other editors from feeling intimated, and keeps the discussion on track as Mathsci suggests. But just to clarify for my own future reference: it's OK to complain about an editor on a third-party talk page? (I saw this by accident, when Aldux made an edit to the obscure article Siburius and I wondered whether the user was interested in Gaul.) If I were to do so, no one would be justified in complaining? This was after I had stopped responding (check the time codes here and here). I didn't respond there, and I haven't responded at the project page; however, Born2cycle has already indicated that he intends not to let others have their say in peace, and I'm not the only editor who would like him to change his rhetorical strategy. Mathsci is quite right, however, about the direction of consensus and the otiose nature of further discussion of a block. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:00, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

There are some very important underlying issues being discussed here, so I welcome this inquiry in to my behavior.

Of course I'm not neutral on the issue of whether PMA's behavior in question here was appropriate, but I would welcome those who disagree with me to question anyone who shares my opinion on this matter to question us in the same manner as I question them. This is how we get to the bottom of issues in courts, and there is no reason it should not work equally well in WP discussions, for the same reasons. These discussions are much more analogous to courtroom testimony than to cocktail parties in which it is considered bad etiquette to ask pointed questions about off-handed remarks that people make, and I ask that the appropriateness of the questioning at issue here be judged accordingly.

As Cynwolfe notes above, his/her view was based on the general opinion that "blocking should be reserved for users who damage the usefulness and credibility of the encyclopedia". So, I thought (and still think) it would helpful for everyone involved in the discussion (including Cynwolfe) to know whether this view was based on the related in general opinion that "rude, uncivil and disruptive behavior towards other users on talk pages damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia", or whether it was special dispensation expressed for someone for whom she was biased favorably. I still don't know the answer to this question, but still believe it would be useful to the discussion there. Cynwolfe was of course free not to answer, and free not to reply at all, but he/she chose to reply without answering, repeatedly, so I kept re-asking. Please note that every time I allegedly "badgered", it was in reply to yet another post from Cynwolfe in which he/she "responded" but did not answer.

I'm also disturbed by the implication here that pointed questioning (what Cynwolfe derides as "role of prosecutor") about stated opinions, especially in deliberations about relatively serious questions like the blocking of someone, should be discouraged.

I know that the refusal to answer questions is a pet peeve of mine, and I suppose I get a bit obsessive about it, especially in important contexts like this one is. But I just can't imagine refusing to answer a simple yes/no question about a position I've taken. I mean, are we in these discussions just to share our opinions and run, like at a cocktail party, or are we trying to understand each other (and our selves) and hopefully find common ground and consensus through the discussion? If a position does not hold up to scrutiny, why maintain it? Why would you want to hold a position that does not hold up to scrutiny? How do you know whether your position holds up to scrutiny unless you hold it up to scrutiny? So, I presume we all want the meaningful discourse and not just a pointless like it/don't like it festival, and so I do get frustrated when others are simply not forthcoming about what they're saying and why. So I remain perplexed by Cynwolfe's refusal to answer an important and relevant yes/no question. Without such answers, others have no way to distinguish legitimate objective defenses of the behavior in question from rationalized statements made in defense of someone they are biased to support without much if any serious objective consideration of the inappropriateness of the behavior in question.

Cynwolfe claims the question has been answered. Yet I still have no idea what his/her opinion is about whether "rude, uncivil and disruptive behavior towards other users on talk pages damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia" (which is what was asked). If anyone else can figure out an answer to that from what was posted, please let me know, but I suggest that "answered" is being conflated with "responded".

As to the concern that questioning like this "could deter editors from leaving opinions, particularly neutral parties who aren't motivated by either animus or loyalty and who don't want to subject themselves to this kind of aggressive cross-examination", I suggest neutral parties are unlikely to make the kind of ambiguous statements (in support or opposition) that raises the kind of question I asked here. For example, Cynwolfe cites as a supposed example of my problematic behavior my questioning of the statement of a "highly regarded editor". But that statement in defense is entirely about the person whose behavior is being judged ("PMA is a knowledgable editor who makes many valuable contributions"), not about the behavior in question, which is the basis of my question. As to deterring other biased editors like this from making biased statements like this that they are unwilling to explain, I suggest that would raise the level of the quality of these discussions for the ultimate betterment of the encyclopedia. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:03, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Born2cycle, part of the problem here is that you asked Cynwolfe a loaded question. In fact several of them. "Do you believe that rude, uncivil and disruptive behavior towards other users on talk pages (not to mention in the edit wars and move wars in which he tends to engage) "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia"? If not, are you for deleting WP:CIVIL? How about WP:AGF?" Just because Cynwolfe avoided a yes or no answer does not mean she avoided answering your question. This looks like a reasonable answer to your question. Pressing for an answer for your loaded question was unnecessary harassment. That kind of obsessive behaviour chills discussion. Could you tone down the rhetoric. Nev1 (talk) 17:12, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Nev1, please consider the context in which I asked my supposedly loaded question. In a discussion in which PMA was accused of being rude, uncivil and disruptive to varying degrees, Cynwolfe stated, "What I find "telling" is that when I ask, as I have numerous times, for a demonstration of how PMA's behavior damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia, nobody can answer". Maybe you know what Cynwolfe means by "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia" here, but I wasn't sure when that was written, nor am I now. However, I carefully crafted my question to be clear that I was intending to reflect the same meaning in my words as Cynwolfe did in these words, by using Cynwolfe's words. What would help put Cynwolfe's position in context is to know whether Cynwolfe believes in general that that kind of behavior simply never "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia" (e.g., perhaps Cynwolfe believes since this kind of behavior is restricted to talk page banter it does not affect article space), or whether this was just being said in this case due to personal bias.

So, I asked, "Do you believe that rude, uncivil and disruptive behavior towards other users on talk pages (not to mention in the edit wars and move wars in which he tends to engage) "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia"?

A loaded question is by definition based on a controversial assumption. I try very hard to avoid asking questions based on controversial assumptions, and this situation was no exception. So, it would be helpful to me if you would clearly identify what you feel is the controversial assumption in my question. And, if you think Cynwolfe answered the question (though without a yes or no), please tell me whether Cynwolfe believes that the kind of behavior in which PMA engaged never "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia". Thanks.

By the way, did my repeated questioning of Cynwolfe in that discussion "damage the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia"? --Born2cycle (talk) 19:45, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

A loaded question is designed to elicit one of two responses. Either the person agrees with the questioner, or if they disagree the question is phrased in such a way that it appears unreasonable. Your second and third questions demonstrated that the first was indeed loaded. If you really wanted to understand what Cynwolfe meant rather than engage in this aggressive behaviour you would have asked "what do you mean by 'damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia'?" At best, your question was poorly phrased and your subsequent behaviour embarrassing.

I am not here to assist you with your comprehension skills, Born2cycle; Cynwolfe's response is there for you to re-read if you wish. I don't know whether your repeated questioning of Cynwolfe damaged the encyclopedia or its credibility, but it certainly didn't improve it. Nev1 (talk) 20:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

By your definition of "loaded question" asking Clinton whether he had sex with Monica Lewinsky, or asking anyone, including Cynwolfe, anything that they would rather not answer, is a "loaded question". So, yeah, in that sense, it was a loaded question, and intentionally so. But it was not based on an unreasonable assumption, which is the true characteristic of a loaded question. "Are you still beating your wife?", asked of someone for which wife beating has not been established, is the quintessential example since there is no way to answer it without acknowledging that one is wife beater. Please note that asking a convicted wife beater if he is still beating his wife is not a loaded question, so context is crucial. There was nothing in my question that presumed anything unreasonable, so it was not a loaded question.

Since grade school I've tested in the 99th percentile for reading comprehension, thank you very much. When I ask about X, and the answer is in regard to Y, that's not an answer. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:48, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to support the comments from User:Cynwolfe. All wikipedia contributors have the right to an opinion, but in insisting on having the last word and commenting on everyone else's comments, Born2cycle is making a farce out of the Pmanderson debate. Deb (talk) 18:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

The page in question is not attached to an article, so no (to answer the question before Deb's comment), it has no immediate or direct effect on the credibility or reliability of the encyclopedia. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names is about how the community wishes to respond to an editor who provokes strong negative feelings in a significant number of people he deals with. It's important that some editors also like working with him when he's a courtly curmudgeon and not Captain Ahab, and that some productive editors have mixed feelings. The voice of one editor should not be allowed to dominate a community forum of this kind and create an impression that one view is more important than any other, nor is that page the appropriate place to discuss WP:CIV "in general". I made the remark Born2cycle keeps quoting as a reason not to block an editor, and so the question makes no sense: no one has suggested that Born2cycle be blocked or placed under external restrictions, only that the behavior be moderated voluntarily. If you believe that WP:CIV is a black-and-white policy, then you should acknowledge that when you're asked multiple times by multiple editors to tone it down (a fourth editor now has asked), you're doing something wrong rhetorically or socially and ought to pay attention to what that might be, and not just assert the righteousness of your cause. This is indeed why WP:CIV exists. Nev1 understands very well how the rhetorical framing rendered the line of questioning unproductive: "have you stopped beating your husband?" is not a question I'd care to answer "yes" or "no." Cynwolfe (talk) 20:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

LOL, I used the still a wife beater example above to make the opposite point before I saw this. Note that you can identify the controversial assumption in the question, "Have you stopped beating your husband?". The controversial assumption, of course, is that you have been beating your husband. Since you're drawing the analogy, what is the controversial assumption in my question to you? Do you believe that rude, uncivil and disruptive behavior towards other users on talk pages (not to mention in the edit wars and move wars in which he tends to engage) "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia"? --Born2cycle (talk) 20:58, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

The sheer volume of Born2cycle's comments are a burden, and tend towards becoming some kind of harassment. Here an editor points out Born2cycle commented far more than any other editor in a different discussion, somehow with a nice link to a count of all edits in that discussion. In another discussion (not sure which one) i have seen Born2cycle repeating things because he asserts (perhaps correctly) that an editor didn't read everything Born2cycle had already written. That's a sign u've written too much, not to be remedied by repeating. This is arrogant in a certain way, believing that one given topic is so important that everyone must consider it, and that they must deeply consider everything said about it, again and again. Give other people credit for making their own choices about what to pay attention to. --Doncram (talk) 20:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, okay, I hear you. Thank you. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:51, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy to let it go if Born2cycle really has heard what people are telling him. Born2Cycle decided not to comment further at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names, but I was disappointed to see him engage immediately with the user who is the subject of the complaint on the user's talk page. Seems like looking for a reason to feel wounded; this remark by Pmanderson may be found "uncivil" by those gathering firewood for PMA's burning, while others might find it a succinct and unvarnished restatement of what Doncram pointed out above, with statistical verification. I notice that of Born2cycle's last 500 edits, only about 10 were made to the content of articles (excluding a few moves and redirects) — a vanishingly small percentage. Of course editors should participate in whatever way they choose, but I don't think I'd be wrong to say that some editors have found it therapeutic to limit their participation on talk pages and forums, or to take a break from these altogether, while resetting their priorities by focusing on article content, and not obsessing about the behavior of other editors — such a focus being the heart of WP:CIV. I look forward to doing that myself, and wish Born2cycle a happy new year. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:39, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Then I'll boldly close this. Happy New Year everyone! Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 17:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

User:BrownHairedGirl

Please can the recent comments made by BrownHairedGirl here be reviewed to see if they amount to a personal attack and weather further action should be persued in this instance. --Lucy-marie (talk) 18:35, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Have you linked to the right page? I can't see anything there that remotely approaches a personal attack. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:39, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec)See also the discussion at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Comments_and_AGF. The substantive issue is a disagreement over the relationship between a policy and a guideline, and I have drawn attention to my view that Lucy-marie (talk · contribs) selective application of policy makes her arguments bogus. In the discussion at User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Comments_and_AGF and at Talk:James Chichester-Clark I have asked to clarify the contradiction in her rationales, but so far she has not done so, and prefers complaining of "personal attack". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:43, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec)I concur with Bretonbanquet that there is nothing on that talk page that comes close to an attack. BTW Lucy when posting here you are required to inform the editor in question that you are discussing them here which you did not do. Fortunately, another editor has done that for you. MarnetteD | Talk 18:47, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Please read the comments towards the bottom of the discussion such as this edit --Lucy-marie (talk) 18:50, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

That diff would indicate that you are being uncivil ("... complete nonsence [sic] ...") The Rambling Man (talk) 18:52, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

That's your own edit, Lucy-Marie. I'm lost already here. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Notification would have been posted but and edit conflict was recieved as another user had posted before me.--Lucy-marie (talk) 18:57, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Please read the comments towards the bottom of the discussion such as this edit --Lucy-marie (talk) 18:50, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I was not refering to the user as complete nonsence but the uncivil tone in whcih thier comments were made and that the comments had no relevance to the issue of the page move request.--Lucy-marie (talk) 18:57, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

My apologies this diff--Lucy-marie (talk) 18:57, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I can't see anything there that's not article-content-based, such as the suggestion that your argument is bogus. It's rather similar to your "complete nonsense" comment. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Lucy I would advise caution as you proceed. IMO at this moment you would seem to be approaching a WP:BOOMERANG situation. MarnetteD | Talk 18:56, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Again there is nothing approaching incivility in the post that you have linked to. Also per the guidelines for talk pages please stop inserting your posts into the middle of previous entries. New items are to be added in chrono order to avoid confusion about who was saying what when. MarnetteD | Talk 19:03, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. And I have removed entries by other users duplicated by Lucy-marie. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I am simply posting to specific discussion but due to edit conflicts posting chronologically has not been possible without the edit conflicts the posts would have been chronological. If other posts were accidentally dupilcated i apologise.--Lucy-marie (talk) 19:08, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec*3)I was puzzled why a comment by another editor was cited as evidence that I have been uncivil. The second diff is indeed my comment, in which I criticise the arguments put forward by Lucy-marie. Such scrutiny is an unavoidable part of forming consensus, and if we are to make good decisions it is important that editors are free to examine and criticise a rationale which they perceive as flawed.

I don't want to make this a pile-on, but I have already had requests from numerous editors to take a broader look at Lucy-marie's conduct, including several calls for an RFC/U. I still hope that this can be avoided, and hope that the feedback here may be helpful to Lucy-marie. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

The issue I take with the second diff is they are of a personal nature and irrelevant to the Page move request. They should have been made on my personal talk page and not on the Page move discussion. I believe they are a smear attempt on that discussion but that is just my opinion and not a formal accusation.--Lucy-marie (talk) 19:16, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: "Comment on content, not on the contributor". Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 19:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

They aren't of a personal nature - they were focussed on the argument on that page, so that page was the right place to continue it. Bringing this thing here is pretty close to a formal accusation, I would think. A "smear" is a heavy word to describe this, and terribly inaccurate. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:21, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Saying "Your argument is bogus" is unnecessary. Comment on the arguments in an objective way. If you can't do that without commenting on another editor, then consider just saying nothing. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 19:35, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

That's over-sensitive. By that token, Lucy-Marie can be similarly criticised for her "complete nonsense" comment. Let's be realistic here, neither are personal attacks. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:40, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say they were, I'm trying to give good advice for avoiding even the appearance of personal attacks -- but alas no good deed goes unpunished. If that advice is over-sensitive, then so is the policy at WP:AVOIDYOU. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 19:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Neither comment is out of bounds, though both could have been toned down a bit. I don't see anything actionable here. Figureofnine (talk) 19:48, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I was surprised to see BHG at the Wikiquette board, as this is a civil contributor in my view. Agree that there is nothing at all actionable here. If anything it's a WP:BOOMERANG situation, so let's close this and start the New Year fresh. Jusdafax 22:28, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. What I find striking about this board is how infrequently I see genuine incivility raised as an issue here. There is a lot of incivility on Wikipedia, but little of it seems to be discussed here. Figureofnine (talk) 22:46, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

BHG had her knuckles wrapped some months ago and transformed into a very civil and co-operative editor. But this case was prompted and just as soon as you drop it this unnecessary nationalist bad-mouthing happens. Adding <grin> after invectives makes them neither ironic nor funny. What's of more concern is that she is a very active editor and admin wrt Anglo-Irish articles. Ephebi (talk) 23:00, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Personal attacks from IP user

• 71.164.114.50 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• [[:]] (edit | [[Talk:|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Please assist, after a warning the user 71.164.114.50 re-attacked me and wrote some long amazing post on my talk page. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nahome&oldid=405228494 User claims to be from Newport - quick Google of the store they claim to be from says Newport NH But IP traces entirely to someone/somewhere else entirely (I'm sure that is just a lie like everything else). Then a couple hours later that same began re-attacking me on my user page and elsewhere. I even tried calling the store he said he was from, they had no clue what I was talking about. It is just more tricks please stop them from doing this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nahome&oldid=405250909 Help!!! Nahome (talk) 02:26, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I see that this IP user was blocked for personal attacks. Hopefully he will get the message. Figureofnine (talk) 22:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

WP:TALK policy, including off-topic content, and make new headers for new topics

• Johnuniq (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Sentence spacing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

As a new user, I am having a problem with an experienced editor (EE).  The EE and I are now in dispute resolution on his user talk page [here].  There is a table [here] that includes the sequence of related posts up to Dec 26, with diffs for four posts on Talk:Sentence spacing including three by the EE.  This dispute involves the context of the three posts on two sections of the Talk:Sentence spacing page [here] and [here].  The EE doesn't seem to be able to discuss the extent to which his three posts are off-topic, or the relevance of making new headers for new topics.

The EE in my original contact was notably helpful.  Soon thereafter the EE found his way to the Sentence spacing article and made his first posts.  In the first sentence [here] the EE makes note of posting without investigating the section.  For both of the disputed sections, the EE is either never willing or never able to respond to technical questions about the subject.

The recent dispute-resolution discussion is at [re: WP:TALK policy, including off-topic content, and make new headers for new topics].  I have given the EE [here] a list of the number of times I have used the term "off-topic" without him having responded.  I believe that I have made a sincere effort to move the conversation forward and that I have not been met with a like response.

Thanks, RB  66.217.117.24 (talk) 22:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, the most salient issue is that you appear to have some difficulties communicating clearly. I made a serious effort to figure out what you are talking about by looking over contribs, and failed utterly. Looie496 (talk) 23:42, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I happen to have Johnuniq's talk page on my watchlist and I see the disruptive edits of this IP anon as they crop up. John has shown great patience and forbearance in responding to them in the face of the IP's refusal, or inability, to explain just exactly what he wants. I have considered advising John to just delete such messages as they appear, rather than waste time responding to them, but that might create even more distractions like this one. --CliffC (talk) 02:29, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

If anyone has any questions, please ask here. Otherwise I probably will not comment much. I would like to clarify one point. The above report includes Soon thereafter the EE found his way to the Sentence spacing article and made his first posts. A possible interpretation might be that I got involved at the article because of a comment on my talk page. That is not correct: My first edit at Sentence spacing was 23 June 2010 (diff), and my first comment at Talk:Sentence spacing was 2 December 2010 (diff). I am pretty sure that RB's first comment on my talk page was 14 December 2010 (i.e. after my involvement with the article). Sorry about the length of my talk page; I have been putting off archiving to try to force myself to attend to something I said I would do in a section on that page. Johnuniq (talk) 04:02, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree here with Looie496 and CliffC that the point the anon is trying to make is unclear. I also note that the anon has made elaborate efforts including tables and abbreviations of usernames and talkpages to explain the points they are trying to make without actually making them any clearer to the external observer. In my opinion whatever point the anon is trying to make does not merit the amount of time and effort invested in pursuing it and if it continues it will be clearly unconstructive. Despite this, Johnuniq has replied with commendable courtesy, patience and civility to the persistent and elaborate enquiries of the anon. I think this alert is completely unwarranted and should be closed. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 04:33, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Johnuniq, I was not aware of your revert on the Article page, thank you for the correction.  So where I said "Sentence spacing", I should have said, "Talk:Sentence spacing".  Your last analysis for me on WT:TPG was early on December 2 [here].  Your diff of your first post on Talk:Sentence spacing was also dated December 2, that being 20 hours later.  I hope that clarifies the statement you questioned.  Are there questions you have asked that you feel I have not answered?  Thanks, RB  66.217.118.91 (talk) 11:02, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Looie496, what I am talking about is "off-topic content and make new headers for new topics".  Table 2 says, "Summary: RB has used the words "off-topic" ten times.  In five replies, Johnuniq has responded with those words zero times." Does that help?

CliffC, "Just exactly what I want" is that Johnuniq make new headers for new topics.

Dr.K, I have consistently said that I would continue to respect Johnuniq's opinion.  I think you know that I've been patient, courteous, and civil.  This page says that this is the place to report "difficult communications".  If I say "off-topic" ten times, and Johnuniq responds zero times, I think this is not a problem of being unclear, this is a breakdown in communication.  Do you still think that this alert is "completely unwarranted" here?  If so, then where should I seek assistance?  Thanks, RB  66.217.118.91 (talk) 11:02, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi 66.217.118.91. I am doubtful that you by coming here will get any better assistance from this board than you already got from Johnuniq. Let me clarify. If three editors tell you here that they don't understand what point you are making, it should be a good indicator to you that the point you are making is not clear. Coming to this board with an unclear message will not make it any clearer. Thus I am unclear as to where you should go to obtain assistance. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 11:27, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Malleus Fatuorum (NPA & Incivil remarks)

Resolved

 – Graham Colm (talk) 20:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

The editors have agreed to move on.[5]

• Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Ironholds 5
• User talk:Malleus Fatuorum#January 2011

I left a template warning for this user concerning a personal attack by Implication against Sven Manguard on the RFA I listed above, to which I received an unpleasantly incivil reply. I have a job to do as much as anyone on here, and I don't appreciate being told to "Go away and annoy someone else" when I'm doing what the rules imply should be done. BarkingFish 19:04, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

You might review WP:DTTR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Sandy, noted. However, at the time I left this note, I did not know that Malleus was a regular, I'd never seen him around, never seen any contribs from him, nothing. I did what I was supposed to do according to what I'd been taught. This isn't about my actions however, but the remarks from MF on both the pages above. I do a damn good job here usually, and don't appreciate users, no matter HOW tough they appear, racking on me when they are in the wrong. BarkingFish 19:13, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Leaving templated warnings for established editors is more uncivil than a few cross words imo. If Sven was so hurt by Malleus's comment, he should have brought up the complaint himself. Besides, it's not like Malleus made the comments unprovoked. Where is Sven's warning for violating AGF? AD 19:19, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Warning someone for "violating AGF" is extremely counterproductive. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:34, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Wrong is relative. A quick check at user contributions will solve questions about established users. This is about your actions, now both yours and Malleus'. A belief that reporting a user to Administrative noticeboard is about the other user is erroneous. Further, you seem to think that the work one does is somehow not to be considered in one's immediate actions or should reflect a decision in an administrative action. In that line of thinking, again perhaps consider the work Malleus does. To get more to the point to resolve this quickly, the crux of this conflict is more about what is considered uncivil yet again. What would you like to see done, BarkingFish? What is your ideal now in this scenario? Do you think Malleus should be blocked? --Moni3 (talk) 19:24, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

What would that be likely to achieve that previous blocks have failed to achieve? Malleus Fatuorum 19:27, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know, which is why I asked. --Moni3 (talk) 19:33, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I can tell you exactly what another block would achieve. Absolutely nothing. Nada. Malleus Fatuorum 19:37, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Unless it were indefinite, of course. ;) -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:39, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

That's never going to happen. There's countless admins standing by waiting to reverse it. Iridescent, Nev1, Ucucha, Moni3, etc. Besides, it'll never garner consensus. Wahoh (talk) 19:43, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Wahoh, you appear to have created this account just to weigh in on this discussion, apparently to stir a pot that does not need to be stirred, what with calling people twats and now this downright inaccurate statement intoning a cadre of admins exists to protect Malleus. That marginalizes the admins in question as well as Malleus. What are you trying to accomplish here? --Moni3 (talk) 19:47, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Obviously it wouldn't stick if it's not done right. First there would have to be a certified RFC/U or two, and then an ArbCom case. Established users don't get indef'ed without the groundwork being laid. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

See below for my responses to the rest of you. As for what I would like to see done, since it appears Malleus is insistent on ignoring warnings no matter what for, I would like someone who he can't pick off as an "easy target" (as he puts it), such as a normal user, to lay a warning on him, and see where ignoring it gets him. BarkingFish 19:32, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Leaving warnings for Malleus is pointless. Many have done it before - easy targets and otherwise - and it accomplishes nothing, except possibly to irritate him. Sorry. Leaving warnings in general is not a very good idea unless you know the person to be a rank newbie who has never seen our policies. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:39, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Jesus, you're misunderstanding everything. Malleus is not deeming you an "easy target". He's saying that you consider him an easy target.

You've still not learned. You are wrong, no one else. Wahoh (talk)

I was using his terminology to list myself, since it appears that it's been twisted to make me look bad when I was following the procedures I'd been taught. I may be in the wrong, but I'm not the only one. BarkingFish 19:41, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I wish you'd stop saying you were following the procedure you have been 'taught'. We are not in a school here, you are responsible for your own actions. You made a mistake, you were too hasty to chastise an editor for a comment not even directed at you. I think it would be best for all concerned if you just let the matter drop. Malleus is probably not going to demand an apology from you for your unwisely placed template, nor should you expect some punishment be bestowed on Malleus. Just leave it be, is my advice. ^OohBunnies!Not just any bunnies... 19:45, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I've never demanded an apology from anyone on wikipedia, and I don't expect to start now. I think that BF made a couple of mistakes that are almost incomprehensible after his six-year tenure here, but what's done is done. Malleus Fatuorum 19:59, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

"I've never demanded an apology from anyone on wikipedia, and I don't expect to start now." We like that about you Malleus. :) -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:00, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

OohBunnies! - How else am I supposed to describe a process where someone completely new to something is shown by other editors how to do things, what to push, when to push it, what to put where and how? Is that not a process of education, which implies that I had been taught by others? BarkingFish 19:49, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

It just seems that you are trying to shift the blame for your mistake, and I'm fairly sure no one taught you to template the regulars. You may have never seen WP:DTTR but it's common sense not to leave a 'Welcome to Wikipedia' template on the userpage of someone that has clearly been here a while. That aside, many are in disagreement with you about the comment you deem to be a personal attack, so it's probably wise to just let it go and move on. This discussion isn't helping anything. ^OohBunnies!Not just any bunnies... 19:56, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It is you who is in the wrong BarkingFish. If I were to call your templating of an an established editor as careless or idiotic (which I have not), then you may perhaps feel somewhat chagrined. That would however be a far cry from calling you careless or idiotic (which I have also not done). As I pointed out at the RfA that has prompted this report, your position is very far from a logically consistent one when you ignore the comments (aggressive) made by your friends in favour of trying to lynch someone you believe to be an easy target. Malleus Fatuorum 19:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

FYI - Sven is not one of my friends. I did not ignore the comment on purpose, I dealt with the first thing I saw. I do not consider you an easy target, far from it. I did what I thought was right at the time. BarkingFish 19:29, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

So have you yet warned Sven for his "personal attack" according to your definition of that term? Malleus Fatuorum 19:31, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm curious as to why you now say that you consider me to be far from an easy target, when only a few moments ago you claimed to have no knowledge of me whatsoever. Malleus Fatuorum 19:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

The advice of people off wiki is a big help in gauging who you are dealing with, Malleus. BarkingFish 19:39, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I see. So you were put up to this by your IRC friends? Malleus Fatuorum 20:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

No, not at all. I posted a note to IRC to say I was doing it, and one of the administrators in the channel who I decline to name simply informed me that "Templating you for anything wasn't a good idea," and "Good luck with getting something done about it." I was also informed that "you'll (meaning me) probably be the butt of a lot of criticism for this, and it'll be like pissing headwind trying to get something done." in private message. I was sort of ready for this by the time I got this going. BarkingFish 20:11, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

You appear to have lost track of the point that I'm not the one in the wrong here, you are. I made no personal attack, despite your apparent inability to understand the difference between commenting on the editor and the comment. Have you learned that lesson yet? Malleus Fatuorum 20:31, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) - Malleus, I've taken enough of a battering in the last hour or so to get that through - I was merely commenting on what was said to me at IRC, in response to your message above. That is how I formed the opinion, based on the interaction of others with you, who informed me that no one would do anything, whether you were in the wrong or not. I've realised I was wrong, I don't intend to apologise for it, because I thought I was right. Even people who apparently don't know you (like User:Wahoh) seem to think you're always right, so why the hell should I bother? You might as well close this, in fact, please do. Frankly, I can't be arsed anymore. BarkingFish 20:37, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Clearly, BF has made a mistake and should apologise and this discussion closed. Graham Colm (talk) 19:28, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

According to what I have been taught over the last 6 years on Wikipedia, I have not. I do not intend to apologise for doing something which I felt was right and which tied in with the manner in which I was trained and learned my way around the Wikipedia. You can close the discussion if you wish, since it appears I'm now in the wrong, despite not being in the wrong in the first place. BarkingFish 19:39, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Why is it that people always come crying about personal attacks but fail to realise that their "buddies" are the only twats making them? Wahoh (talk) 19:29, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Why is it that anyone thinks that calling people "twats" is a remotely good idea in any context? -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

It's a rather apt word. Maybe you ought to consider using it too. Wahoh (talk) 19:43, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

It's unhelpful, and disruptive. Keep it up and you'll see. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:50, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with GTBacchus. Did I ever tell you about the time I was blocked for using the word "sycophantic"? Malleus Fatuorum 20:06, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Are these things always cooked up on IRC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:46, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't going to comment anymore, but I will respond to that. The people on IRC had NO INFLUENCE whatsoever in my decision to post this WQA. I did it of my own accord and only posted to them that I had done so, at which point I was told I was essentially in for some hell, which as I've discovered, was perfectly correct. Nothing was "cooked" up. BarkingFish 20:48, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I have closed this discussion. Any further comments are probably better placed on user pages. Graham Colm (talk) 20:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

While I see that this was closed, since it seems that my actions stirred this pot, I am going to leave a comment here anyways. It is below, bulleted, and seeing as this is a closed discussion, I'd appreciate it if it didn't go on to start another round of nasty comments.

• My initial comment on Ironholds' RfA was not meant as a personal attack. At the time, I had nothing against Malleus and barely knew him.
• Malleus' subsequent response was, in my opinion, overblown. However by the time I saw it, it was several layers deep in other people's comments and counter-comments. Me being the fool that I am, I dived in, mostly out of the belief that I had done nothing wrong with my initial posting and was being unnecessarily attacked.
• A progressively more and more heated discussion ensued, which, realizing that it was devolving, I tried to end via collapse three times. Malleus reverted it twice, apparently not willing to disengage. I, again being a fool, did not realize that this was further fueling the fire, and continued to respond to what I saw as provocations.
• With the third collapse not revered, I left for dinner. When I came back, I was informed of this. Having had time to cool off, I realized that the RfA comments incident was an unpleasant affair with obvious wrongs committed by both parties. I really had no intention of touching that again. However I would like to go on the record and say that I neither know BarkingFish nor put him or anyone else up to this. Indeed had I not been told of this place, I would not have known of its existance.
• Finally, both because I do not want to get brought back into this mess, and because at this time it is my belief that any further interactions between Malleus and I are unlikely to result in anything other than a fight, I am exercising my right to refuse to further engage on this issue. Any comments made to me on my userspace on this issue will be removed without response, and any further discussion on this or the RfA will be logged but otherwise ignored. Unless these incidents wind up being brought up in an area that requires my input, I will not feed this fire anymore. As to Malleus, I would greatly appreciate it if I received no further contact from him or about him for the foreseeable future, for both our sakes. I personally will do the same towards him. Sven Manguard Wha? 03:21, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

User:Griswaldo on Talk:Involuntary_committal_of_Victor_Győry

• Griswaldo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Involuntary committal of Victor_Győry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Ok, this is not a very serious case but in my opinion it needs a few eyes on. There is a pretty heated discussion about sources on Talk:Involuntary_committal_of_Victor_Győry. Griswaldo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is repeatedly accusing me of being disruptive because I added a couple of sources that I didn't verify myself but that were clearly verified by the admin User:NuclearWarfare when he nominated the article at AfD (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victor Győry nomination, where the sources are listed including the number of paragraphs covering the subject). While I understand the whole issue is contentious, I've never heard that adding sources verified by another editor (a quite respected admin, by the way) was "disruptive", and in my opinion it is quite an attack. Can someone uninvolved weigh on the issue? Thanks a lot. --Cyclopia^talk 16:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Clarification - The sources were not "verified" by another editor as pertaining to the entry contents. They were simply listed as the only sources that pertained to the topic at all that could be found by that editor. Mind you the same editor nominated the page for deletion because it lacked adequate sourcing. Given that fact it is truly hard to understand how Cyclopia would believe that the sources were "verified" to support the exact content of the entry.Griswaldo (talk) 17:19, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Griswaldo is correct. I commented further on this here. NW (Talk) 02:03, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm puzzled. On the talk page you said: I skimmed the contents, but didn't really try to verify anything specific. - That you didn't verify anything specific is OK, but you had a look at the contents and you did verify that they talked about the article subject (as they in fact perfectly do, as verified personally now that Jayen466 sent us copies of the articles), so it seems to me that my WP:AGF on your source listing was correct (and in any case didn't deserve to be repeatedly called disruptive, quite a serious allegation here). --Cyclopia^talk 02:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

"The sources were not "verified" by another editor as pertaining to the entry contents."  True "They were simply listed as the only sources that pertained to the topic at all that could be found by that editor."  True "Mind you the same editor nominated the page for deletion because it lacked adequate sourcing."  True NW (Talk) 02:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Response by Griswaldo

Cyclopia de-Proded the entry and in doing so added two incomplete news references based upon their mention in the PROD rationale, along with a third complete reference to a book titled Mental Illness, based on its mention in the PROD rationale as well. Another user removed the incomplete references since they didn't actually cite any information. Cyclopia, edit warred ([6], [7]) to keep them in despite admitting on the talk page to have never accessed or verified these sources. In doing so he also edit warred to keep in the citation to Mental Illness, which I had separately removed due to it's misuse. I also started a talk page discussion about the poor source, but Cyclopia chose not to engage it before reverting my removal. He now appears to agree with my removal but has not explained why he added it in the first place, or even admitted to making a mistake. I believe he is acting disruptively because during an active AfD discussion he's puffing the entry up with sources that do not belong, or that he has not bothered to verify and is edit warring to keep the puffery in. Telling him that this is disruptive is not, in my view, a breach of etiquette, but I'm open to feedback.Griswaldo (talk) 16:35, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I do not "agree with your concerns"; I understand them -quite a different thing. I still think that the source makes sense and explained that on the talk page. And I read it before adding it -so much that in fact I added it inline. I am also not puffying; I removed a couple of unreliable sources as well. In any case the point here is not what do we think of sources, but your calling me repeatedly "disruptive" or rebuking my comments with "BS" for a mere technical disagreement -something that I see as a violation of civility. --Cyclopia^talk 16:43, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Calling people uncivil for questioning his long-standing reckless attitude to BLPs is rather typical of the myopic rule-gaming that Cyclopia engages in. He doesn't seem to see that how we treat articles on living people outweighs the in-house niceties. Given the long-standing and vexatious nature of this, I'm wondering whether a BLP-related topic ban would be in order.--Scott Mac 16:57, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)
    1. Not the right venue. Open a RfC/U is that is your concern.
    2. I invite you to find proper BLP violations on my part justifying a topic ban (possibly in the abovementioned RfC/U). Otherwise what you're proposing is just a threat of silencing who happens not to share your point of view on the issue. --Cyclopia^talk 17:12, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
    • Edit warring to keep in unverified and fallacious citations to BLP information after repeated explanations of the problem is indeed a BLP violation and you did it more than once.Griswaldo (talk) 17:16, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
      • Not unverified: NuclearWarfare verified them. Do you really trust me more than him? And they didn't cite direct BLP information, they were further reading. About the "fallacious" one, that's your opinion, which I disagree on. Again, please learn that we can agree to disagree, but disagreement is not a reason to attack people or call them disruptive, least to topic ban them (again, if that's your idea, WP:RFC/U is that a-way). --Cyclopia^talk 17:21, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
        • Please quote the statement by NW that lead you to believe that he had "verified" the sources, or the policy that allows you to add sources to any entry without verifying them yourself first, particularly to information that pertains to a living subject, as all the information in this entry does? Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 17:25, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• This is not the right venue for such discussions. --Ronz (talk) 17:41, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Excuse me, but defending myself from his accusations is absolutely appropriate in this venue. Regarding your general involvement here please see my comment below.Griswaldo (talk) 20:09, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• • Just so that there is no confusion, you mean a topic ban of Cyclopia, right?Griswaldo (talk) 17:08, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
    • yes, long overdue imo.--Scott Mac 17:18, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Diffs please, per WP:NPA. --Ronz (talk) 17:39, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• WP:TROUT all around. Cyclopia, Off2riorob, and Griswaldo need to simply focus on content and follow WP:TALK better. At least Off2riorob chose to step away...

It looks like Off2riorob and Griswaldo understandably lost their patience trying to determine the rationale for Cyclopia's editing. Off2riorob lost his cool 15:32, Cyclopia took offense at the incivility [8], and the Off2riorob escalated the situation further 15:42, before leaving the discussions.

Griswaldo then jumps in to escalate the problems further, again and again. 15:52 16:08 16:11 16:12 16:14 16:14 Cyclopia eventually gets tired of pointing out the problems and brings the complaints to a proper forum here. --Ronz (talk) 17:32, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

When someone acts disruptively, again and again, asking them to stop acting disruptively each time is not "escalating" anything. Cyclopia escalated by bringing the situation here. Now that it is turning on him you want it to stop? Why is that Ronz? The only time you and I have interacted here I seem to recall being highly critical of your own behavior. I also seem to recall that so many people were critical of you that you threatened to retire. Now if you think that my behavior towards you then is pertinent to this discussion then by all means bring it forth (I'm open to criticism), but I think it is highly dubious of you to show up as if you are disinterested third party commenting on what you see. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 18:42, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Unlike others here, I simply looked at the civility concerns, and provided diffs. The diffs show an escalation of incivility. No one has yet contested the facts of the situation, only tried to justify their behavior because of other concerns, or find ways to attack editors as a way to dismiss their arguments. Ironic. --Ronz (talk) 21:15, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Unlike others here you have prior involvement with me of a negative nature. I don't see any personal attacks anywhere, so please stop repeating that claim. The diffs you provided are not of escalating incivility. There is nothing escalating about them. I'm just telling him repeatedly how disruptive he's being because he's being repeatedly disruptive. Ronz, can you please do me the favor of not commenting here given our history? I can't see how it is productive in its present form. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 21:33, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Please WP:FOC. That is the problem here. Personalizing disputes only hinders resolving them.

If the content dispute is a part of reoccurring problems with Cyclopia, no one has provided diffs, so such comments look like personal attacks.

You shouldn't have repeatedly told him he was being disruptive, per WP:FOC, WP:AVOIDYOU, and WP:TALK. Yes, Cyclopia caused some disruption. Your response was to cause further disruption.

In contrast, Off2riorob made a few inflammatory comments then left the discussions. It would have been better if you had you been able to do the same. --Ronz (talk) 22:05, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I provided diffs of his disruption above (edit warring to maintain unverified, partial citations as well as a fallacious one in an entry about a living person). Please stop with the patronizing lecturing. I will not respond to you anymore Ronz as I'm well aware of where that leads from our last encounter, which is why you're clearly here in the first place. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:10, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I was unclear. Both Off2riorob (18:47) and Scott Mac (16:57) make reference to other disputes. Griswaldo (17:08) asked for clarification on what action should be taken because of those other disputes. Yet no diffs or other information has been provided on such disputes. --Ronz (talk) 22:23, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

My position is that I see the repeated support of content of little note that is uncited and often without any attempt to improve it as extremely detrimental to the project, I see Cyclopia doing this often. I would really like to clear this up with him. Off2riorob (talk) 18:47, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the content dispute was a mess. If this is a reoccurring problem, provide some diffs for context. --Ronz (talk) 21:19, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Evidence that Cyclopia is a recurring problem? That's easy. I have trouble finding the school article talk page where Cyclopia inisted on listing children attending the school just because they are children of celebrities, but while looking for it (I thought I had mentioned it on Jimbo's talk page at some point) I found this discussion: User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 57#Eric Ely AfD. In it, Cyclopia tried to defend a BLP violating article that was ultimately SNOW deleted against Jimbo. Hans Adler 09:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC) I have trouble

User: NinaGreen

• NinaGreen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Shakespeare authorship question (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

NinaGreen is an editor whose remarks at the Talk:Shakespeare authorship question mainly consist of hectoring, badgering and personal attacks on editors and admins. The section headings at her talk page pretty much tell the story of her relatively short Wikipedia editing career, with clashes between editors and admins both. She has been blocked once for disruptive editing when she used an IP address. Lately she has concentrated her attention on me, making aspersions and accusations and causing disruptions on the page. Her constant badgering and hectoring and inappropriate accusations of impropriety has contributed to an extremely toxic editing environment.

Diffs:

accusations of collusion to hide biased editing,

accusations of dishonesty

false complaints of my “ownership” of the article

accusations of misusing policy

accuses other editors of collusion to turn the page over to me

says editors should recuse themselves from editing because of their bias and open flouting of policy

accuses editors of collusion and that I edit to my personal beliefs

more hectoring and accusations of stonewalling

Skipping many similar rants to these:

accusing admins of colluding with me to keep control of the page

started a section entitled “Tom’s Censorship of the Peer Review Page” after I removed her inappropriate attack on the peer review page, which she promptly restored.

I myself have lost my temper and have had to apologise and retract some remarks. No such self-awareness has been forthcoming from her. Any remonstrations from editors or admins are taken by her as a personal attack.

My hope is that she will take notice of any admonishments from the editors here and modify her editing style to conform to Wikipedia standards for collegial editing.

Tom Reedy (talk) 03:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

This is not an etiquette issue or an issue of 'editing style'. It concerns Tom Reedy's admitted bias and his complete control of the SAQ article which I raised on the Peer Review page today in the comments below. These comments were twice censored by Tom Reedy, who removed deleted them from the Peer Review page so that the editors doing the peer review of the SAQ article could not see them.

I've placed this comment on the Talk page for the SAQ article, and I'm placing it here as well so that peer reviewers will be aware of the restrictions which, contrary to Wikipedia policy, have been placed on any editing of the SAQ article to improve it. I've made many attempts to improve the article on a number of fronts including lack of neutrality, presence of synthesis and original research, excessive length, excessive use of footnotes which almost equal the length the article etc. etc., and in every case I've either been prevented from editing at all by Tom's demand that consensus be reached on the Talk page before any editing by me can be done (an impossibility), or Tom or one of his close associates has instantly reverted my edits before anyone can even look at them or consider them, even though I've placed the edits up for discussion on the Talk page. This is all completely contrary to Wikipedia policy, and no article should be even considered for Peer Review when this sort of strong-arming of any opposition is going on. Here's what I wrote to Tom on the subject on the Talk page:

Tom, I can't recall a single topic which has been brought up on this Talk page to any purpose. The reason for that is that you control the article, contrary to Wikipedia policy, and you will not allow a syllable of it to be altered without your express consent, which you never grant. Nor will you allow a single edit by anyone other than yourself to stand without instantly reverting it. You have admitted that you are biased, and have even gone so far as to claim that your bias brings a useful perspective to the article. No editor of this page who is among your close group of associates has ever objected in the slightest to any of this, and no administrator has intervened in any way to prevent it from continuing. That's an objective view of the status quo with respect to the SAQ article. It is far from Wikipedia's intent and Wikipedia's policies.

It is quite true, as Tom admits, that he has made completely inappropriate personal attacks on me, only one of which he has apologized for. But i addition to Tom Reedy's unrelenting personal attacks, the principal issues are Tom's admitted bias (of which details are available on the SAQ talk page), and his complete control of the editing of the SAQ article, of which not a single syllable can be altered without Tom's express permission, completely contrary to Wikipedia's policy that no editor owns a Wikipedia article. It seems beyond dispute that no article should be put forward for peer review by an editor who has admitted bias concerning the topic of the article and who completely controls the editing of every syllable of the article and purports to 'own' the article.NinaGreen (talk) 03:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Provide diffs to prove the dozen offhand generalizations critical of Reedy. That is all that independent minds here care to look at. Expressions of opinion are neither here nor there. In fact, in the absence of such diffs, your repeating here the phrasing 'unrelenting personal attacks' just documents what Reedy is complaining of, and in itself, since you,ve repeated it dozens of times all over wikipedia, grounds enough to suggest his complaint is justified.Nishidani (talk) 04:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Nishidani, anyone who goes to the SAQ Talk page can find the passages in which Tom has admitted bias concerning the subject of the SAQ article and has even gone so far as to claim that his bias provides a useful perspective to the article! Similarly, anyone who goes to the SAQ Talk page can see the instantaneous reverts of any edits I've made, and the stonewalling of discussion on the Talk page of any edits I've suggested, and Tom's insistence that the smallest edit to the SAQ article must be approved by him, evidencing his attitude that he 'owns' the article, in which you have throughout aided and abetted him. In the same vein, anyone who goes to the SAQ Talk page can see for him/herself Tom's personal attacks on me. The facts speak for themselves. It is time this violation of Wikipedia policies came to an end. And the idea that the SAQ article has been put up for Peer Review while this sort of abuse of Wikipedia policy is going on is a travesty.NinaGreen (talk) 06:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

We don't operate like that here. Accept advice, obtain diffs. You said the attacks made against you by Reedy are 'legion', and yet fail to provide even one diff. You appear to know, despite several months of editing, nothing of policy, cannot collaborate, turn a deaf ear to polite advice, and call those who won't accept your opinions at face value relentless violators of wiki policy engaged in personal attacks against you. Now the encyclopedia's normative modes of work are a 'travesty'. It looks to me like you wish to be banned, and are taunting the patience of everyone in order to suffer that sanction. Why one should do this is a mystery, except if . . .Nishidani (talk) 06:39, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Nishidani (and, in other places, Tom, too), I understand your frustration, but I don't think it's appropriate to keep nagging Nina about providing diffs, without showing her how she can do it. She is still a pretty new editor and is clearly doing her best to refer to edits in other places. Even if her method takes a lot of space, please help rather than cavil. Nina, diffs are very useful. I have written a help page about them for new editors, which I tried to make as clear and simple as possible: Simple diff and link guide. It tells you both how diffs can make your posts more effective, and, in simple steps, how to produce them. Please check it out. Bishonen | talk 09:11, 5 January 2011 (UTC).

User:Time_Will_Say_Nothing

• Time_Will_Say_Nothing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Meeting_Strindberg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• The_Teetotaller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

During NPP, I stumbled on The Teetotaller and it appeared to be an excerpt from a book. The article had already been marked for speedy deletion by another user (sorry, I didn't track who before it was delete) and then it was changed to a redirect. The article creater undid the redirect and restored his article. I restored the redirect and then left a message on the creator's talk page. I immediately was accused of coordinated harrassment. I tried talking to the user the explain the problem and help them understand. The user continued to make bad faith comments about me here. He also made similar comments on another user's talk page here and here. Finally, a third user posted a PROD on the user's talk page and immediately he this editor of harrassment too here. Request someone not involved help.--v/r - TP 03:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The page The Teetotaller no longer exists, so the reasons for this post are unclear! The above post does not accurately or fully represent what has occurred. However, it is helpful to have the issue aired. I am having to deal with a wide variety of edits by people many of whom have obviously not bothered to understand or even read the material properly before editing, or else edits where one editor simply repeats an edit or tag without noticing that it has already been discussed, or else edits where editors contradict each other, or else edits that are simply ludicrous in the sense that they misdescribe or misrepresent or misinterpret, or else ego-driven edits, or else edits by editors maliciously belittling the content, or even edits by editors who can't even spell! Not all of these apply to TP by any means. I made it clear that the allegation of harrassment was not directed at him exclusively. I have no wish to fall out with anyone but I am being repeatedly placed in a position of having to defend what I am doing robustly and from people, some of whom who are plainly and persistently determined to find reasons to challenge it at all cost. There is a fundamental issue with the competence and integrity of certain editors. There is also an issue with multiple editors piling in one after the other to defend each other, which can legitimately be described as harrassment. There seems to be no co-ordination between editors, nor any policy that prevents one editor from changing, on a whim, the outcome of a conversation with another editor. Time Will Say Nothing (talk) 03:43, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I may be missing something but how is Up to Now (autobiography) not a copyright violation ? Sean.hoyland - talk 04:08, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

It was published in 1929, so it's in the public domain. I think you're right. I thought it was in public domain at first, but according to [9], works whose authors died in 1939 on are still protected. Feezo (Talk) 04:18, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

If you had bothered to read the discussions with previous editors, you would know the answer to that question. You are indeed missing something. This is what I mean by harrassment. Editors making wrong or incompetent comments without taking due care or without realising that the issue has already been dealt with. I OWN THE COPYRIGHT Time Will Say Nothing (talk) 04:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Without a link I don't know what discussions you are referring to. If you own the copyright and you wish to donate it to Wikipedia you need to read and follow the instructions at WP:IOWN and Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. Have you done that ? Sean.hoyland - talk 04:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

• I have a similar report; I PRODed Meeting Strindberg with the comment "Wikipedia is not a travel blog", later clarified to travelogue [10] (I thought it was historical fiction at first) and was immediately accused of harassment [11] [12]. Feezo (Talk) 04:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, taken collectively, the multiple edits on my work as described above, most of which are quite wrong like yours, amount to harrassment. Thank you for admitting that you got your edit wrong. If you had looked into what you were doing properly BEFORE editing, rather than steaming in without taking due care, you would have got it right, which is to say you would not have edited it at all, which would have been helpful and constructive and, yes, competent. Time Will Say Nothing (talk) 04:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I included one of those diffs in my initial report.--v/r - TP 04:15, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

All this reflects very little credit on the editors concerned. Time Will Say Nothing (talk) 04:28, 5 January 2011 (UTC)