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== January 2012 ==
== January 2012 ==
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ahalya/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Brian Halligan/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Brian Halligan/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/S&M (song)/archive5}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/S&M (song)/archive5}}

Revision as of 19:46, 23 January 2012

January 2012

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:46, 23 January 2012 [1].

Ahalya

Nominator(s): Redtigerxyz Talk 10:08, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This GA article (since June 2011) is about Ahalya, a paradoxical figure in Hindu myth, both venerated and condemned and who has become famous in legend due to her sexual behaviour. The article recently underwent peer review with promising comments and got copyedited by User:Cwmhiraeth minutes ago. I am nominating this article for featured article because IMO, it satisfies all FA criteria after the copyedit and the peer review. Redtigerxyz Talk 10:08, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lede
  • The opening sentence is quite long, especially for in the lede. Consider splitting it after Gautama?
As per WP:LEADSENTENCE, if someone is particularly famous for 1 particular reason, then it should be noted in the first sentence. Her primary identity is not wife of Gautama, it is her transgression and its consequences. --Redtigerxyz Talk 11:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That is true. I just found it a bit difficult to navigate, but I agree that it is essential. Auree ★ 15:33, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Later on in that same sentence, it reads "the resultant curse by her husband and her subsequent liberation by Rama, an avatar of the god Vishnu." After its been split, can we place a comma after "and" here? It feels like the list goes on after "by Rama" without it. Additionally, I'm not sure how "resultant curse" links to the preceding bit.
Changed a comma to -. The curse is a result of the extra-martial coitus, which is elaborated.
Hmm, I edited to something different. Feel free to revert if you disagree. Auree ★ 15:33, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just 1 thing: the article does not use the serial comma convention. It is the "without serial comma" convention, usually followed in Indian English. So removed the serial comma for consistency. --Redtigerxyz Talk 16:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Due to her unflinching acceptance of the curse and loyalty to her husband, Ahalya is extolled as the first of the panchakanya ("five virgins"), archetypal chaste women, the recital of whose names is believed to dispel sin." – Something doesn't feel right here. I think the comma after the parentheses should be removed, and it could use some further clarification.
Do – work here?--Redtigerxyz Talk 11:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How do you feel about adding the "archetypal chaste women" bit into the parentheses? Auree ★ 15:33, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. --Redtigerxyz Talk 16:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I meant adding it in the parentheses along with the "five virgins" bit. However, I realize that would probably look stupid. Is "archetypal chaste women" an alternative term or does it just serve to elaborate on what the five virgins are? Auree ★ 19:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"five virgins" is literal meaning. archetypal chaste women is their characteristic. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, makes sense. I tweaked it a bit and I feel it flows better--what do you think? Auree ★ 17:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds better. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Later sources however, often absolve her of all guilt, describing how she falls prey to his trickery, or is raped." – It reads quite odd without a comma before "however".
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 11:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ahalya as well as her lover Indra, are cursed by Gautama." – What's wrong with using "and" here? Also gets rid of one of many commas in the prose.
"as well as" is used as an alternative to "not only ... but also". Not only is Indra (who is the guilty party) punished, but also the innocent Ahalya is cursed. --Redtigerxyz Talk 11:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I just feel it weakens the prose. It still needs a comma in there somewhere, then. Auree ★ 15:33, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 16:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "short stories as well as in dance and drama." – Comma before "as well as" for readability.
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 11:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's from the lede for now. It is very comprehensive, but overall I found it a bit verbose and difficult to grasp in some areas. I'm no expert on the subject at hand, however, so my comments might be too nitpicky. I'll be glad to continue the review after more feedback is given. Auree ★ 19:40, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your replies. After reading through it a second time, I do feel it is well written. I've made some small changes myself and will continue the review asap. (: Auree ★ 15:33, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Name and development - very engaging, just a few nitpicks
  • "The word "Ahalya" is broken up as [...]" – I'm not 100% sure on this one, but here Ahayla should probably be italicized and the quotations removed per the MOS. Reoccurs later on as well.
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Some Sanskrit dictionaries translate Ahalya as "unploughed",[1][5] however, some recent authors, arguing that sexual intercourse is often likened to the ploughing of a field, interpret the word to mean "one who is not ploughed", i.e. a virgin; or "one who should not be ploughed", i.e. a motherly figure and in the context of the character Ahalya, someone beyond Indra's reach." – This is a borderline run-on sentence; is there any way we can split it?
Can be split before "However". --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alternatively, we could just tighten the sentence and remove two commas. I suggest changing "some recent authors, arguing that sexual intercourse is often likened to the ploughing of a field, interpret the word to mean "one who is not ploughed"" to "some recent authors argue that sexual intercourse is often likened to the ploughing of a field and interpret the word to mean "one who is not ploughed". Auree ★ 18:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Brahmanas (9th to 6th centuries BCE) are the oldest scriptures to reveal the relationship between Ahalya and Indra but the Bala Kanda book of the Ramayana, a 5th to 4th century BCE epic which narrates Rama's life, is the first to explicitly mention her extra-marital affair." – Consider splitting before "but"?
Needs a "however" then. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "conscious decision" seems a bit redundant to me. I'd remove "conscious"
All decisions are not conscious. The phrase "conscious decision" is used to emphasize her deliberate act of doing something against the gender norms. Similar eg. at [2]--Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Despite the fact that Ahalya is cursed to endure several penances to expiate her sin in the Bala Kanda," – Tighten to "Although Ahalya is cursed to endure several penances in the Bala Kanda,"?
Good idea. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also consider splitting that sentence after "illustrious woman", so that the bit in between parentheses can be reworked to prose.
Actually the mahabhaga adjective is an important contrasting adjective to the curse and related to the "goddess-like and illustrious woman" part. mahabhaga is used many times, compared to other adjectives meaning goddess-like or illustrious. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This interpretation contrasts with that of Rambhadracharya, for whom the word mahabhaga in the context of Ahalya's story means "extremely unfortunate" (split as "maha + abhaga")." – We already know how the word is split, so I suggest removing the parenthesized bit.
Note the splitting is different. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ohh, you're right. I didn't notice that--sorry! Auree ★ 18:33, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ahalya is purified by offering Rama hospitality." Does this part rely on footnote 15? If so, that source should be cited to at the end for clarity.
Elaborated in relevant section: Ramayana, where references exist.--Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine, though if possible, it wouldn't hurt adding a reference just to be sure. Auree ★ 18:33, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It has been argued that this later version of the tale is the result of a "male backlash" and patriarchal myth-making that condemns her as a non-entity devoid of emotions, self-respect and societal status." – Could this be reworded to plainer English?
Can't figure out how to make it simpler, without loss of the intensity. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Particularly the ""male backlash" and patriarchal myth-making that condemns her as a non-entity devoid of emotions" part, but if you cannot find a different way to word it's no deal-breaker. Auree ★ 18:33, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Can't think of anything. Feel free to change. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In contrast, Ahalya's encounter is regarded as purely erotic and not resulting in procreation, and thus Ahalya faces the ire of the scriptures." – Not sure how to reword this, but it feels a bit off.
Reworded.--Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In all, a very good read, albeit a bit hard to follow at times. This might just be due to the subject at hand and me being unfamiliar with it though, and the overall writing is of professional standard. I've made a very light c/e to the section, catching mostly minor style issues and punctuation. Please check my changes. Auree ★ 20:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your edits. I understand it will a little difficult to comprehend for those unfamiliar with Hinduism. I have similar thoughts about those astronomy FAs :) --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Creation and marriage
  • "the Creator" is introduced as a new term, but I'm not sure what it's referring to here. Brahma, I assume?
The text is not clear. The Creator may mean the generic God or the particular creator god Brahma. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not a fan of it, but I'll let it slide. Auree ★ 19:35, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Harivamsa (dated between the 1st and the 3rd century)" – Is there any way to keep the dating notation here consistent with the others?
  • "When that time arrives, the sage returns Ahalya to Brahma, who, impressed by the sage's sexual restraint, bestows her upon him." – Here, writing "impressed by Guatama's sexual restraint" would probably make it clearer as to whom "him" refers to at the end of that sentence.
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Meanwhile Indra, who believes that the best women are meant for him, resents Ahalya's marriage to the forest-dwelling ascetic" – Forest-dwelling "ascetic" seems a bit POV, though the text probably implies that Indra regards Guatama as such. Could this be made clearer? Additionally, considering tightening by removing "Meanwhile"
ascetic is a fact, which is asserted by various scriptures. The implication is the right meaning. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, the divine sage Narada mentions to Brahma that Gautama went around the three worlds before Indra, explaining that one day as part of his daily puja (ritual offering), Gautama circumambulated the wish-bearing cow Surabhi while she gave birth, which, according to the Vedas, made the cow equal to three worlds." – Split before "explaining"? The second part could also be reworded to reduce the amount of commas, e.g. "[...] before Indra. The sage explained that Guama circumambulated the wish-bearing cow Surabhi while she gave birth as part of his daily puja (ritual offering), which made the cow equal to three worlds according to the Vedas."
Good suggestion. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "site of her epic curse" – Remove "epic"? It doesn't seem to add much additional meaning, unless I'm interpreting it incorrectly.
"epic" is used here as a pun: "noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition (Ramayana)" and "of unusually great size or extent"--Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Encounter with Indra: Curse and redemption
  • "Indra, the "lover of Ahalya ... O Kaushika, Brahman (Brahmin), who calls himself Gautama"" – The middle part ("O Kaushika, Brahman (Brahmin)") of the quotation is a tad abrupt and confusing to me without any clarification. Is the quote necessary, and if so, can that part be omitted using a bracketed ellipsis [...]?
  • Wait, who is Kaushika even? Aside from the preceding ambiguous quote, this is the first time we read about him in the article...
  • "Indra's adoption of the Brahmin's form to "visit" Ahalya" – Not quite sure what this means
Reply to 3 comments: Kaushika is inferred as Ahalya's husband as Indra takes his form and "visits" Ahalya, like the Ramayana legend. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "an allegory for the Sun (Indra) taking away the shade of night (Ahalya)" – Since "Sun" is capitalized here, how do you feel about capitalizing night? Or just de-capitalize both.
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Bala Kanda mentions that Ayodhyan princes Rama and his brother Lakshmana and their guru Vishwamitra pass Gautama's desolate ashram" – I had to reread this a few times before I understood, but I'm not sure how to reword it (missing commas?)
  • "touch her feet giving obeisance" – Reword to "give Ahalya obeisance by touching her feet" or something similar?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The gods and other celestial beings shower Rama and Ahalya with flowers and bow to Ahalya" – Should this be "shower Rama and Lakshmana with flowers", or is Lakshmana excluded?
No... no... Only Rama and Ahalya is mentioned.--Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Indra is cursed to suffer imprisonment, loss of his peace of mind and to bear half the sin..." – Reword to "Indra is cursed to suffer improsonment, lose his peace of mind and bear half the sin..."?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the innocent Ahalya is cursed to lose her unique quality of being the most beautiful woman, as this was the cause of Indra's seduction." – Tighten by removing "as this was"?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would "sexual adventure" be the best choice of words?
Adventure is used in sense of a "risky or unexpected undertaking", also to avoid repetition of encounter. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Personally, I feel the mention of one of the sons was a bit abrupt, as it is the first thing being said about any of her children.
It is more about noting Gautama's reaction here.--Redtigerxyz Talk 18:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, though I feel it's still a sudden/random introduction of one of her children. Auree ★ 19:35, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, Chirakari does not follow the order at once and, as is his habit, thinks it over for a long time, before arriving at the conclusion that Ahalya is innocent." – This could be tightened and rejigged for less repetitiveness. Something like "However, Chirakari is hesitant to follow the order and later concludes that Ahalya is innocent."
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Söhnen-Thieme considers the words "violated" and "renowned" indicate that Ahalya is not considered an adulteress here." – Missing a "that" after "considers", perchance? Also, "here" could be reworded.
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stopping at Puranas for now. Aside from some content issues, surprisingly little to nitpick about in this section (these are my edits). The Epics: Ramayana and Mahabharata reads beautifully--my compliments! Something I noticed: in the lede, it reads "mediaeval"; however, a subsection titled "Medieval vernacular versions" appears later on in the article. This should be made consistent. Auree ★ 00:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing...
  • "The Puranas bring themes echoed in later works like the unsuspecting Ahalya being fooled by Indra's devious disguise as Gautama in Gautama's absence, Ahalya's defence plea, the innocent Ahalya cursed and turned into stone, the touch of Rama's feet turning the petrified Ahalya into a sanctified beautiful maiden, Indra escaping as a cat and Indra being cursed to be castrated and/or to carry his shame in the form of a thousand vulvae on his body for all to see, which are later turned into a thousand eyes." – This is one, big list-sentence. Could it be adjusted a bit to enhance the readability (maybe by using semi-colons to separate each item)?
Added semi-colons. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gautama orders her to go to the forest and become a stone until rescued by the touch of Rama's feet." – How does "restored by the touch of Rama's feet" read to you?
Better. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who is "Gautam Patel"? Needs clarification
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, but instead of using hyphens for interruption, use spaced en dashes (–) or commas. Auree ★ 18:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In this version, Rama does not have to physically touch Ahalya with his foot. The mere touch of dust from his feet is enough to bring Ahalya back to life." – Very closely related sentences; consider adjoining with a semi-colon.
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Commenting on this narrative in the Ramacharitamanasa, Rambhadracharya says that Rama did three things, he destroyed the sin of Ahalya by his sight, he destroyed the curse by the dust of his feet and he destroyed the affliction by the touch of his feet, evidenced by the use of the Tribhangi (meaning "destroyer of the three") metre in the verses which form Ahalya's pageyric." – Ungrammatical comma after "three things"
Changed to : --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on prose and comprehensiveness. Holding off for now pending the sourcing issues pointed out by Nikkimaria below. I honestly forgot to take a look at the citation quality but I agree that it needs quite a bit of cleanup. Auree ★ 22:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note on prose and comprehensiveness: Some suggestions still remain open but they're not nearly significant enough to hold me off from supporting. I'll say this now: I was really impressed with the article and how extensive it is. Most of the issues I could discern were relatively minor and prose related, and after seeing Mark Arsten's excellent comments being largely addressed, I'm confident that this article is of standard. Thanks for all your work, Redtiger--it was a pleasure working with you! Auree ★ 19:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments at 18:28, 9 January 2012 (UTC) from Mark Arsten: I'll try to give this a close examination over the next day or two.

  • I put some non-breaking spaces in.
  • The date formats aren't consistent in the references section. (July 18, 2011 and 4 December 2011).
Following first. Please let me know if I missed any. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try to be consistent with how you abbreviate page ranges (pp. 147–148 and pp. 145–6)
Following second. Please let me know if I missed any. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Advisor.js is giving me a "Bad ISBN checksum" warning on the page, not sure what that means though.
The .js doesn't understand ISBNs ending in X.--Redtigerxyz Talk 18:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't know that, ok.
That is my guess. However, I checked. The isbn seem right. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Might want to check that the image captions line up with the MOS:CAPTIONS rules. 18:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Make sure that you're consistent with providing locations for publishers. 18:41, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
All locations can be removed for consistency. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try to be consistent about the use of the serial comma. 19:46, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Using "no serial comma" convention. Please let me know if I missed any. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead looks ok to me, just a couple things: is the Wiktionary link really necessary? I don't think the last paragraph flows as well as it could, the part about "Other traditions deal with her children" seems a bit awkward at its present location.
In the PR, a editor advises to link atone (Atonement). Since an Atonement in Hinduism does not exit, the Wiktionary was linked. Reordered. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting, I wonder if that redlink could be redirected at least. Oh well, that's out of scope here.
  • I made a few small copyedits, feel free to revert if you don't think they were an improvement. 20:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Overall I think the article is well written but I have some small comments and questions on the prose. 21:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

  • "a motherly figure and in the context of the character Ahalya, someone beyond Indra's reach." Would a comma after "and" make sense?
after and? Not sure... Why is it needed? --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't sure, but it's ok without one, I guess.
  • "They alternately state that the jealous Indra tricks Ahalya into having sex by disguising himself as Gautama or that he rapes her." Should this be "alternatively"?
oops... Good catch. --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "places her in the care of the sage Gautama until she reaches puberty." You've already mentioned that Gautama is a sage, does it need to be mentioned again?
was first mention of Gautama in the story-telling. Can be dropped. Everyone will the first line, assumed. --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "explaining that one day as part of his daily puja (ritual offering)," Should there be a comma after "day"?
Changed. --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Ramayana records that Gautama's ashram is located in a forest (Mithila-upavana) near Mithila, where the couple practise asceticism together for several years." Could "together" be removed here or do you think that's necessary?
They can do it living separately. Does "the couple" imply "together"? --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, now that I re-read it I think it should stay in.
  • "The Padma Purana and Brahma Vaivarta Purana (800–1100) describe the ashram to be near the holy city of Pushkar." Would "as" be better than "to be"?
IMO, "to be" is better. --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, that was just a suggestion.
  • "Gautam Patel credits Kalidasa with being the first person to introduce the petrification motif." Would "as" be better than "with being"?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here are a few more questions, nothing major though. The article is looking pretty good to me. 23:17, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

  • "sage Satananda is depicted to be mocked as son of Ahalya, the adulteress." This reads a little awkwardly to me.
Satananda is mocked as a son of an adulteress. How to put this in a better way and explaining the son-mother relationship.--Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I can't think of a better way either.
  • "the condensed narrative of the Ramayana in the Mahabharata, does not mention Ahalya's violation and her redemption by Rama." Not sure, but maybe swap "or" in for "and".
"and" is right, as referring to 1 sequence of events (1 unit).--Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, that's fine.
  • "Söhnen-Thieme considers the words "violated" and "renowned" indicate that Ahalya is not considered an adulteress here." Maybe rephrase to avoid having consider twice in the sentence.
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Brahmanas section you start a couple sentences in a row with "In the...", maybe rephrase one?
any suggestions?? Can't think of a solution. --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe something like "The author of the Sadvimsha Brahmana does not explicitly state..."?
Changed. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Another legend, generally told in Indian folk tales, tells that Aruna," maybe rephrase to avoid having "tales" and "tells" right next to each other?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She passes them off as sons of Gautama; however, her daughter, Anjani, by Gautama, reveals her mother's secret to her father." Could this be rephrased to do away with a comma? Perhaps "She passes them off as sons of Gautama; however, her daughter, Anjani, reveals her mother's secret to her father Gautama."
Needs to be reworded. Also, ambiguous "her". Tomorrow. --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A well-known verse cited about Ahalya runs:" do we need to work "cited" here?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • he sentence that begins "Bhattacharya, author of Panch-Kanya..." is fairly long, maybe split it up?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "like Sita and Savitri, this very action has made her immortal in legend." could "very" be removed?
Used for emphasis. Similar instances --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I guess that's fine then.
  • "The right-wing Hindu women's organisation Rashtra Sevika Samiti considers Ahalya as the symbol of..." Maybe remove "as"
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "especially the British colonisers and Muslim invaders" maybe wikilink "British colonisers" and "Muslim invaders"?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe include a quote from Tarabai Shinde?
Not available in the reference on hand. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, not a deal-breaker.
  • Maybe this sentence could be tightened a bit? "Like Bhattacharya, Kelkar, author of Subordination of woman: a new perspective, feels that Ahalya was made venerable due to her acceptance of the norms of conduct for women and as she ungrudgingly accepted the curse while acknowledging that she needed to be punished."
Please check. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me now.
  • More comments from Mark Arsten (talk) 02:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It has been argued that this later version of the tale is the result of a "male backlash" and patriarchal myth-making that condemns her as a non-entity devoid of emotions, self-respect and societal status." Maybe note who has argued this?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • While historic narratives are Rama-centric, contemporary writers make Ahalya the focus of the story. maybe "contemporary writers focus on Ahalya"?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "most commonly through the short story genre or" Maybe "most commonly through short stories"?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Enamoured by Ahalya's beauty and learning of her husband's absence," Not sure here, but maybe "aware of" instead of "learning of"?
IMO, "learning of" is better here.--Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, not a big deal.
  • "and curses him, causing him to lose his testicles." I'm a bit afraid to ask: but how did he lose them? Did they just fall off or did someone chop them off?
No idea. Not very explicit. They just fall off.--Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This made me laugh for some reason, but I guess it's fine.
  • "The Brahma Purana is a rare exception where Rama is dropped from the narrative and the greatness of the Gautami (Godavari) river illustrated." This sounds a bit awkward to me.
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "curses her to be reduced to a mere skeleton of skin and bones." Isn't a skeleton by definition only bones?
skeleton can mean a "an emaciated person", as used here. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, that's fine then.
  • "own form to ask for a sexual favour, which is flatly refused by Ahalya." Do we know more specifically which kind of favour was requested?
sexual favour: sex. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I wasn't sure if the text was more explicit.
  • "In this epic Vishvamitra tells Rama that the cursed Ahalya has assumed the form of a rock and is patiently awaiting the dust from Rama's feet." comma after epic?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she feasted her eyes on Rama which liberated her from her worldly existence." maybe ", an act which"?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "That night, when Ahalya longs for conjugal pleasure, Gautama refuses her, saying that she is in not in her fertile period." "Conjugal pleasure" seems a bit flowery, maybe just say "sex"? Also, is there a more specific target for the wikilink than Menstrual cycle?
"conjugal pleasure" are common in scholarly books [3]. It is specially used for sex between a married couple. Menstrual cycle talks about that period.--Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, not a problem.
  • "who transforms into a cock and compels Gautama to leave for his morning rituals." not trying to be funny here, but maybe just say "Rooster" again.
Actually cock is often used in Indian English and rooster is never used. Maybe because of the slang (read vulgar) meaning, you suggesting replacement. Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting, "cock" is not used very often (to mean rooster) in my experience these days with American English. I think it stood out more to me since the context involved sex to some degree.
I hope you two don't mind if I chime in here. This article is meant to be written in Indian English, so you should consider changing all "rooster"s to "cock"s, Redtigerxyz, since you are Indian and you know this best. It might also help if you could look everything through again for optimal consistency in Indian English spelling/variants--our suggestions might have affected this as well. Auree ★ 19:21, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Three arguments I see for not using "cock": 1. the American English cock seems to be very infamous 2. most of the readers will be of the western world 3. Since we are talking about sex, most readers are going to think about the American cock and can be confused. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I usually try to be very sensitive about Engvar issues, I certainly don't want people insisting on foreign-sounding terms in articles I write. "Cock" is acceptable here, but if there is a way to make it sound natural in Indian English without using "cock" I'd probably prefer that. Mark Arsten (talk) 22:19, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Can't think of one. Replacing with cock again. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Pratibha Ray's Oriya novel Mahamoha (1997) deals with Ahalya's tale." Maybe add a bit about the novel?
Will check on weekend. I know a reference that says she is portrayed as a tragic heroine in this novel. May be if this does not suffice, removing will be a better choice. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Added more info. --Redtigerxyz Talk 14:49, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I'm satisfied with that. I tweaked the sentence a bit.
  • "only to end up cursed to become a stone with no life herself." Maybe remove "herself"?
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The "Marxist critic" Gnani, in his poem Kallihai," Does that phrase need to be in quotes?
This is a view by the author, thus the quotes. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I guess that's fine then.
  • Last comment, maybe you should downcase the Ritha Devi source?
The name of chapter and journal is printed like that. So have retained it that way --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting, well, if no one else objects than I guess I'm ok with that.
Well, Nikkimaria has a wiki-policy to deal with this situation. Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

---

Auree and Mark Arsten, thanks for your constructive edits. It's getting late in India. Feeling sleepy.. Will address rest of your comments tomorrow. --Redtigerxyz Talk 19:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome, I'll try to finish looking over the whole article soon, but I've been impressed by what I see thus far. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:48, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Struck resolved comments. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:39, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not an experienced reviewer, so feel free to tell me if you don't think my suggestions make sense. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments and edits. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support At this point, all substantive issues that I could find in the article have been dealt with. I am no expert on the subject matter, but in my opinion this is FA quality. In addition, the article was quite interesting and I learned a lot. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done, no comment on source comprehensiveness. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Use consistent punctuation and spacing for shortened citations, and be consistent in whether page ranges are abbreviated or not
I will handle the spacing issue on the weekend. About ranges abbreviated or not (interpreted as pp. or not): Manushi (141): 4–7. (no pp.); Śrīmadvālmīkīya Rāmāyaṇa pp. 681–2. This happens due use of {{cite journal}} (no pp.) and {{cite book}} (pp.)--Redtigerxyz Talk 13:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, p. vs pp. is a different issue. For abbreviating, compare current FNs 18 (pp. 141–173) and 10 (pp. 149–52). Nikkimaria (talk) 15:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't include ellipses at the beginning and end of quotes
... at the beginning of the quotes (in references) says that the quote is not from its beginning. Convention as used here. WP:MOS is not clear on the issue. In text, I have not used ... in beginning or end eg. "nobility of her character, her extraordinary beauty and that she is chronologically the first kanya" (Changed) --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use dashes for ranges always
Done. Fixed dashes by javascript. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't need retrieval dates for convenience links to print-based sources like Google Books
Done. Books do not have retrieval dates. However, they are retained for newspapers as I do not if the articles were printed or not. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Be consistent in whether you provide locations for publishers or not, whether ISBNs are hyphenated or not, etc
(changed) ISBN is as printed in the book; hypenated or not is the book's choice. Locations removed. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't write titles in all-caps
The titles are as printed. --Redtigerxyz Talk 13:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but per MOS:ALLCAPS they should be corrected (for example FN 24). Nikkimaria (talk) 15:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 22: formatting needs cleanup
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 18:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Check for consistency in wikilinking
Please give an example. Unclear. --Redtigerxyz Talk 13:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
For example, The Hindu is linked in FN 84, but is not linked in FN 67. It should be linked either on first appearance only, every time, or never. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Be consistent in whether authors are listed first or last name first, whether initials are spaced or unspaced, etc
Format is Last, First. In case in some (generally South Indian) authors, no last name exists eg. K. Santhosh, Ritha Devi etc.--Redtigerxyz Talk 13:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - too many inconsistencies in source formatting at this point, and I didn't get all the way through. Please do some cleaning up here. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments: Auree, Mark Arsten, Nikkimaria. Will work on it over the weekend. --Redtigerxyz Talk 13:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note - I was asked to check the changes made to the source formatting. I still see some inconsistencies in things like page range notation (e.g. FNs 6 and 12 vs. FNs 10, 11 and 13) and lack of spaces after full stops (FN 17). Here are some other things I noticed Auree ★ 19:54, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry. I could not fully understand page range notation issue. FN 6 is formatted using {{cite journal}} (so not pp.), FN 12 using {{cite book}} (with pp.). The convention followed is that the common part in the end page is not repeated. eg. 12 to 19: 12-9, 12 to 22: 12-22, 146 to 148: 146-8, 1 to 7: 1-7 --Redtigerxyz Talk 06:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overall I'm not a fan of how the pages are being notated, especially in short citations when the page range is exceedingly large.
Most long ranges are translations or long stories, which are summarized or linked online article pdfs. Any specific page ranges I need to address? --Redtigerxyz Talk 06:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some short citations also have commas before the pages (after the author names) while most of them don't.
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 06:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some initials don't have full stops.
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 06:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 29: check author name notation.
P. Ram Mohan is his first name. No last name. P. is not initial, but the shortened name of his village. This is common in South Indian names. I have added the first name in the "last" parameter in {{cite book}} as it does not show first name if last is blank. --Redtigerxyz Talk 05:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is a location indicated only for FN 42 (might be missing others)?
Missed one. --Redtigerxyz Talk 05:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 74: consider using a spaced en dash instead of the slash.
Done. It was as printed. --Redtigerxyz Talk 05:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't include designations like Pvt. Ltd., and Inc. when listing publishers
Done. --Redtigerxyz Talk 06:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not a fan of how some dates are listed either.
Please elaborate. Convention is "Month dd, yyyy". --Redtigerxyz Talk 06:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And more inconsistencies such as these. Overall citations aren't bad, but they are still somewhat messy. Auree ★ 19:54, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with this analysis. Good work has been done, but some more is needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments and patience. I am sorry but I tend to miss a reference or two in formatting. --Redtigerxyz Talk 06:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Getting there, but some still need attention: 23, 81, 87, Mukherjee reference entry...Nikkimaria (talk) 20:18, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 23: What is needed? Ref 81 is complete: No more info (including isbn) available, Author has no last name. Ref 87: Chapter name has a /. Mukherjee: ISBN as printed. --Redtigerxyz Talk 16:59, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
23 has italicization issues, 81 uses a hyphen instead of a dash. Others seem to have been corrected. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:59, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 81 done. Ref 23 uses templates cite book and cite web. Italics is done by them. --Redtigerxyz Talk 16:15, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
(I'm traveling and unable to offer more comments than the ones below; more importantly, I'm unable to follow up, and the FAC delegates may choose to ignore my oppose.) Although there are many prose errors in the article, the outstanding issues are those of coherence and, related to it, inconstancy of register, both insinuating that the source material has been inadequately digested. I would recommend that the article be reviewed by someone from the India project (such as user:Saravask, who has written a number of FAs, user:AshLin, or user:RegentsPark) and/or someone from a mythology Wiki project. The FAC delegates could invite them.
  • Some issues I noticed in the very first sentence:
    • "In Hinduism?" ("In Hindu mythology" or "In Hindu religious literature" would be more accurate.)
    • In the list of other-languages names, Sanskrit, Thai, and Malay have scripts (Malay uses the Latin alphabet), whereas Tamil has a transliteration. Why the inconsistency? And why is the IAST pronunciation listed in the middle of these?
    • Gautama is more commonly associated with Gautama Buddha and in fact redirects to it. Why then is the link Gautama Maharishi presented as "sage Gautama." It will cause confusion.
      • Gautama, in context of Hinduism, is the sage Gautama. [6], PURANIC ENCYCLOPAEDIA p. 285 by Mani, Vettam, [7] --Redtigerxyz Talk 12:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • It might or might not be (what you say) "in the context of Hinduism," given that Gautama Buddha is one of the dashavataras (ten avatars) of Vishnu and likely more important than a sage, but it is the context of Wikipedia that concerns us here. Gautama redirects to Gautama Buddha. To then write Gautama Maharishi as sage [[Gautama Maharishi|Gautama]] is confusing.
          • [8] "Gautama Maharishi" is hardly used and a term seems to be popularized by Wikipedia. [9] Most books call him Gautama. Buddha is never called "Gautama Buddha" in Hinduism. I would actually start a move request for Gautama Maharishi to Gautama (Hindu sage) or Gautama (rishi). --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • Your plans for page moves notwithstanding, you still need to disambiguate the name "Gautama Maharishi" (or "Gautama (sage)" OR "Gautama rishi") from the redirect Gautama-->Gautama Buddha in the first instance of its use in this article. "Sage Gautama" is not enough, because many people consider the Buddha to be a sage. In fact his common appellation Sakyamuni is translated as the "Sage of the Sakyas." Find some other say to disambiguate. The problem is that you are trying to say too much in one convoluted sentence, and are not able to pull it off. Consider not introducing "Gautama" right away. There is no reason why he has to be in the lead sentence. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:02, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
              • Gautama has to be there in the lead sentence. Ahalya is often described as a rishi-patni, wife of a sage. How about rewording as "In Hindu mythology, Ahalya is the sage Gautama's wife, who was seduced by the king of gods - Indra, thus cursed by Gautama and subsequently liberated by Rama, an avatar of the god Vishnu." or similar. About disambiguating Gautama as "Gautama Maharishi", "Gautama Maharishi" hardly used in academic sources [10]. "sage Gautama" [11] generally uses the Hindu sage. Interestingly, the Gautama in "Gautama Buddha" also means the Hindu sage Gautama [12]. Gautama is a patronymic of the Buddha and Sakyas in general. --Redtigerxyz Talk 16:25, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                • Regardless of the reasons you offer, I don't see any evidence in the sources that "Gautama" is essential. In fact, of the 12,000 books that discuss, "Ahalya," and "Indra," approximately half mention Gautama and half don't. We can certainly add Gautama in a later sentence and pare down the lead sentence, which has become quite unwieldy. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:06, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                  • "half don't" is not accurate. The search result is flawed. Some examples which have Gautama, but appear in "half don't" list [13], Myth and mythmaking (a major reference in the article), [14] (which misspells Gautama as Guatama), [15] (Gautama as alternative Gotama). "half don't" also has result about Yoga Vasistha's Ahalya (a queen) and Indra (a Brahmin), which is inspired by the tale of our Ahalya (the rishi-patni) and Indra (Heaven's king) and allusions to Indra as one who violated Ahalya, "a wife of a saint" [16] (rishi-patni is used in this text). --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:11, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The expression "is primarily known for" is generally applied only to historical figures, not to mythological ones. (One doesn't see "Zeus is primarily known for ..." (do a Google books check)
    • "sexual encounter?" this is atypical language for mythology- or history-of-religions discourse. Did she seduce Indra, allow herself to be seduced? Or did he violently force himself upon her? If the latter two, "seduction" is a better choice. (The language used here is important and generally indicative of understanding of source material.)
    • "god-king" is usually applied in the Indian context to figures such as Rama or Krishna, who ruled over human subjects, but were simultaneously divine. Indra, however, was the King of Gods, dwelling in heaven, and something quite different. (On Google books, "King of Gods, Indra" returns 3,670 books, whereas "God king Indra" returns 213
    • "the resultant curse." "resulting curse" is a better choice. "resultant" implies some inevitability.
    • "curse by her husband." -->"curse imposed on her by Gautama"
    • "liberation by Rama" Since we don't know what the curse is, "liberation" is confusing. "lifting of the curse by Lord Rama" is better.
    • "an avatar of god Vishnu. This is really not needed as an average reader is even less likely to have heard of Vishnu and can glean the same information from the Rama link.
    • PS at the beginning of the second sentence: "unflinching?" "Unflinching" in its contemporary sense alludes to an internal process. She may have submitted to the imposition without outward protest or without shrinking back (i.e. flinching), but that is not the same as unflinching, which these days implies "steadiness." (This is off the top of my head. I could be wrong.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:38, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • [23] cites "unflinching courage". Unflinching is used in the same sense. --Redtigerxyz Talk 12:58, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm aware of that sense. Unflinching courage, unflinching gaze, all have aspects of steadiness, but "unflinching acceptance" of a curse which, in the popular version of the myth, turned Ahalya into a rock makes less sense. At the very least the register (of "unflinching" here) is inappropriate. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • [24] "unflinching acceptance" seems to be a popular expression. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • I said that "unflinching" usually has the implication of steadfastness or resolve continuing through time. All your examples have that meaning: "unflinching acceptance of mystery and disillusion," "unflinching acceptance of the burden of history," "Unflinching acceptance of human finitude," and so forth. The two foremost references in the English language (OED and Webster's Unabridged) offer the following examples: 1) A fresh element of resolute, unflinching, persevering determination. 2) Yet he is‥determinedly persevering, unflinching as a foe. (OED) 3) lived a life of unflinching probity 4) an unflinching determination to take the whole evidence into account (Webster's Unabridged). The unflinching acceptance of a curse makes less sense. A curse is usually uttered out aloud when it is placed on a person. Where is there time to be unflinching, or unwavering? Predictably Google books searches for "unflinching acceptance" curse turns up empty. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:53, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
              • All this is now moot. I just discovered that "unflinching acceptance" is a direct quote from some papers by P. Bhatacharya. We can't have it without quotes in the lead. The expression is also not that memorable or precise that it can only be quoted, but not paraphrased. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:53, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                • Yes it is. It is given with quotes in the relevant section "Assessment and remembrance": 'It is this "unflinching acceptance" of the curse that makes the Ramayana praise and venerate her'. "unflinching acceptance" is a common expression used in academic sources. If quotes are needed again in the lead, they can be added. The implication "the implication of steadfastness or resolve continuing through time" is intended in the article. About the curse, the curse here (throughout the article) does not mean only the imprecation, but also "evil or misfortune that comes as if in response to imprecation" [25][26].--Redtigerxyz Talk 16:15, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                  • You certainly cannot remove the quotes in the lead (regardless of whether the same words are quoted in a later section). It is plagiarism, no ifs ands or buts. If "unflinching acceptance" is, as you say, a common expression, then it is easily paraphrased in the lead (where quotes are frowned upon.) In any case, you can't just use "unflinching acceptance," you have to add "according to author P. Bhatacharya" or "in the words of author P. Bhatacharya." I do understand the curse implies the sentence and not just the uttering of it, but in this instance, in (by far) the most popular version of the myth, Ahalya is turned into a rock. Where is there time or state to show unflinching acceptance? I think at this point you are arguing for the sake of arguing. The expression doesn't make sense, its register is not right for the lead, and even if it were, it would need to be quoted with the author's name, all of which is unnecessary in the lead. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:06, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Reworded. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:40, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid, I don't have time for protracted dogfights. If you truly believe that, by producing an obscure example or two, "primarily known for" can be applied to Ahalya (when there is no precedence in the literature of it being applied to Indra, Vishnu, Shiva, Zeus, Minerva, Noah, Satan, ...), so be it. Let others be the judge. And "redemption?" No. A curse is lifted or removed. Redemption means something quite different. The article remains full of such unconventional expressions, which to me indicate incomplete understanding of the sources. Please also indent your replies above properly so that they can be distinguished clearly from my examples. This is all I have time for. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:19, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Equating Indra et al. to Ahalya, primarily known for one event is not the best comparison. As one goes through the references, the term "redemption" is often used in the context of Ahalya online examples. If one understands the sources and commentary by scholars, it is not just about lifting of the curse, it is about destruction of the sin, a theme concurrent in all narratives. As in many of our past encounters, we can agree to disagree. --Redtigerxyz Talk 14:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be consistently misinterpreting what I'm saying. Added to that, your remark about past encounters makes me wonder if you're taking my criticism seriously.
My apologies if "past encounters" hurt you or gave you the impression that your comments were ignored. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is not the "primarily" that is the issue here, nor even "known" (which here means "familiar" or "recognized" (see OED on-line edition, 2012)). It is the "for" which is the problem, and which here means "on account of" or "because of." It suggests causality. Causality, however, cannot bridge mythological events and real ones. In other words, Ahalya is known/familiar, not because of her seduction, but because the story of her seduction is widely read.
  • As for "redemption," I'm simply responding the the construction of the sentence. You introduce the "curse." The counterpoise to the imposition of a curse is its lifting, not redemption. The redemption may have occurred, but it is irrelevant in the sentence because you haven't told us anything about sin. There are many such errors appearing throughout the article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:47, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Lead, sentence 2). "Due to her unflinching acceptance of the curse and loyalty to her husband, Ahalya is extolled as the first of the panchakanya ("five virgins"), archetypal chaste women of whose names the recital is believed to dispel sin."
    • (General remark) The same issue of causality again. The mythical cause (acceptance, loyalty) is linked to real world effect (elevation to first among five virgins). This needs to be stated differently, without the causality. In fact, I have merely explicated here what others above have alluded to as "sounding a bit off."
      • The causality argument seems to ignored by many writers. The style of writing is consistent with their style. "Ahalya subsequently became the epitome of the chaste wife, unjustly accused of adultery, and her proverbial loyalty to her husband makes her one of the five exemplary chaste women daily invoked by Hindu wives." (Dictionary of Hindu Lore and Legend) "(Sita's) nobility, loyalty and restraint have been a source of strength, guiding Hindu families for centuries", "Interest and active participation in matters beyond their homes was noted for Draupadi, Tara ..., but they were not held in greater esteem on that additional account than Sita ... " (Mukherjee), "It is the nobility of her character, her extraordinary beauty and the fact of her being chronologically the first kanya that places Ahalya at the head of the five virgin maidens." (Bhattacharya). --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • PS It can easily be the other way around; in other words, the need to idealize compliant virgins was the cause and the construction of the myth the effect. I'm sure there are readings which interpret the myth to have been constructed during a time of increased patriarchal control (and increased subservience of women) in Hinduism. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • "unflinching." I have already expressed my reservations about its inappropriateness above.
    • "first of the panchkanya ("five virgins")" is ambivalent. What does it mean? First chronologically (in mythic time)? First in importance to the ritual? First name to be recited? Most virginal?
    • "of whose names the recital is believed to dispel sin" This is archaic, was archaic in the late 19th century, and is archaic in Indian English. Change to ", the recital of whose names ..."
    • What does the recital of names of virgins have to do with dispelling sin? The allusion is too vague. What kind of sin? If I steal a mango and lie about it, how will reciting the names of virgins help? The average reader is clueless here. In other words, if you can't clarify the allusion, and make it meaningful, it is best to not mention it in the lead where space is it at a premium.
      • "What does the recital of names of virgins have to do with dispelling sin" is like asking why a certain prayer gains you favour of God. . Members of other religions may consider it absurd, this is what Hindus believe. --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment — What a beautiful article and interesting read. Easy to support this once concerns raised by Fowler and Nikkimaria are settled. Sorry that I can't offer deeper critique—don't know much about how this type of article is supposed to be done. Saravask 05:14, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Two weeks in, this FAC appears stalled with several opposes on several issues, and the review is quite lengthy. Addressing issues raised and coming back fresh in a few weeks will give this nomination a better shot. Good luck! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:28, 23 January 2012 [33].

Brian Halligan

Nominator(s): Woz2 (talk) 02:24, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The subject has been an important figure in the transformation of marketing from mass-media interruption marketing (think soap opera interrupted by soap commercials) to a new era of permission marketing (think organic results from a Google search). The article summarizes his background and his published explanations of this so-called inbound marketing trend, and what businesses can do about it. The peer review is here. Woz2 (talk) 02:24, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose sorry. Not badly written, but the sourcing just isn't up to scratch. This is used four times: more than any other source. Per criterion 1(c), the claims in the article must be "verifiable against high-quality reliable sources". There are quite few of those in the article. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the feedback! Don't apologize. This is my first FAC so it's mainly a learning experience for me. I'll look for more diverse and reliable sources. Woz2 (talk) 00:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I added three more refs from reliable sources to replace three out of four that relied on the self-published source. The fourth is OK I think because it supports the statement "he uses the term inbound marketing." I suppose I could replace that too because that's his book title. What do you think? (I'm thinking about the sections of WP:SPS "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." (i.e. Wiley, MIT Sloan in the case of Halligan) and "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves..." of course) Woz2 (talk) 13:44, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Sorry, but I just don't think this is ready. Some questions/suggestions:
    • Perhaps most importantly, is this article truly comprehensive? There are only two sections ("Education and career" and "Publications, speeches, and awards"), and there is not even a mention of his nationality, or where he was born/raised. Is there truly no personal information available about this man, other than where he received his degrees? I've read the article, and I really don't have a sense of this man at all, which is why I question whether or not this is truly comprehensive.
      • I included everything I found. He listed his birthday but not his birthplace on his Facebook page and I wasn't able to find his birthplace anywhere else. Woz2 (talk) 23:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I emailed the subject and he kindly replied with info about his birthplace and early education. He said it's OK to include the info on wikipedia but said that it wasn't published in a reliable source anywhere that he knew of. I added the info he sent me but wasn't able to add a reliable source because "private communication" isn't a RS on WP. What to do? Woz2 (talk) 03:12, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The lead describes Halligan's books, but does not name them; the "Publications, speeches, and awards" section names the books but doesn't describe them. It should really be the other way around, since WP:LEAD stipulates that lead sections should not introduce material not covered in the body of an article.
    • The "Education and career" section is written backwards; it begins in 2006, with Halligan co-founding HubSpot, but at the end of the second paragraph it mentions him graduating with his MBA in 2005. It would flow far better were it written in chronological order, since that's how one's life generally occurs. ;)
    • Why is Hannigan's name (as author) bolded in the citations, whereas other authors are not?
      • It seems to be an artifact of authorlink attribute of the citation template. It generates a wikilink and when a wikilink appears on the page to which is refers, it is automatically bolded. If the bolding is an issue, I can fix it by deleting the authorlink attribute. Woz2 (talk) 23:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Fixed per recommendation on the help page for self-links. Woz2 (talk) 03:41, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Other consistencies in the citations: websites should not be italicized (inboundmarketing.com), and why not include the proper name of the website, rather than a shorthand URL? inboundmarketing.com = Inbound Marketing.

It's a good start, but it simply doesn't seem complete or polished enough for FA. I made some simple punctuation/MOS fixes here, but there may be some I missed. I totally understand the inherent issues with writing good-quality BLPs, and if the information isn't available, it just isn't available. If you have any questions, let me know. María (yllosubmarine) 21:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I will. Woz2 (talk) 23:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This FAC seems stalled after ten days, with two opposes and no supports. This article may have a better shot at Featured status if the two opposers can be satisfied, and the article revisited in a later FAC. Good luck! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:26, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:22, 23 January 2012 [34].

S&M (song)

Nominator(s): Calvin • Watch n' Learn 16:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I think it's as close to FA standard as it has ever been. Kinda expecting the worst though, as this is it's fifth nomination. So hopefully if it is promoted, I can be pleasantly surprised and ecstatic! I really believe in this article and have spent about 6/7 months working on it. Plus, I really don't want to have the record for most failed nominations! Lol. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 16:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Question (aside from wondering about your particular interest in this song :P ). You say there are five writers for a song barely over 4 minutes in length. What did each of the five contribute? How was the writing session conducted? Did one of them write the words and the others contribute to the music? Did one write the chorus and another write the verse? Were any of the "writers" just honorary additions? My background is in jazz, so I know that Donna Lee, although written by Miles Davis, is credited to Charlie Parker. The writing stuff is a key bit of information, IMO, if this were to be featured. Also, when was it written? It could've been from years earlier. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Lol. Who wrote which line is not available. I've never seen an article on here, or more specifically popular/mainstream music, which states who wrote which line. And it was written in 2010. It says in the article. Ester Dean conveived the idea and wrote the hook and some of the chorus. But that's it. That's in the quote. I'll see what I can do with the credits. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 17:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC) Stargate composed the instrumentation. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 17:13, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Nah, I didn't mean who wrote each line, but some semblance of how the collaboration worked would be good. The "Background and conception" didn't say anything about the song being written in 2010, that's where I was looking. The infobox says it was recorded at "Roc the Mic studios", among other places, but the article doesn't back that up anywhere. The article also says "It was produced by Stargate and Vee, and was composed by Stargate." But then Ester Dean is the one who conceived the idea? In music, the person who conceives the idea and hook is the person who generally composes it. As a composer myself, I find this confusing and contradictory. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:13, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    There isn't any information about how they came together. Have added year recorded and recording locations to the Background and conception section, with sources. Have changed to "It was produced and instrumental composed by Stargate and Vee." Composer is the same as a writer, as they created it, so technically all four composed it. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 21:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, composer is one who does the music. If one of them did lyrics but not the music, then they're not technically a composer. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:38, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, so Stargate and Sandy Vee did the music. Lol. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 22:40, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Wait, I'm confused. You said there were four composers, but you say three did the music. Also, for this sentence - "It was produced and instrumental composed by Stargate and Vee" - do you mean "instrumentally composed"? That could be written better, if so. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:45, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Ester Dean came up with the concept and some of the lyrics (stated in the interview). Stargate, Dean and Vee co-wrote the song. Stargate and Vee provided the instrumental. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 22:46, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - sorry Calvin. The prose is still below the required standard. We have, "It was produced and instrumental composed by Stargate and Vee." What does this mean? Does it mean arranged? Why do we have brackets here, "Chris Ryan of MTV wrote that the singer "[hollers]" the chorus." And, spot the grammatical error here "Interspersing scenes show Rihanna and other people in dominatrix clothing, implying various explicit acts with the singer wearing a feather boa and a top with the word "censored" across it." There is redundancy here, "On its release, the video was immediately banned in eleven countries due to its overt sexual content." In the chart performance section, most of the details are already in the table below, why repeat it all here? It makes very dull reading. I don't like having to repeatedly oppose this article's promotion because of the prose, but, despite numerous copy editing, it is still does not satisfy the very high standards required of a Featured Article. Graham Colm (talk) 23:10, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed "instrumentally" to "who also arranged the instrumental". And "hollers" is in brackets because the critic said "hollering", which doesn't fit there. I can't see a gr error in that sentence? Removed "On its release". Well, if I remove the details of chart performance, where would be no need for that section, right? Calvin • Watch n' Learn 23:27, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"arranged the instrumental" might be vernacular English, but it's not polished prose. Why not just say "produced and arranged". Regarding the grammatical error, may I remind you again of fused participles? I don't always object to their usage, but the sentence in question is ambiguous as a result. Graham Colm (talk) 23:41, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I know what arranged means, but some people who aren't musically inclined might not know. I'll just wiki-link it. Okay, I will re-word that one. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 23:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Never underestimate the intelligence of our readers and avoid overlinking. Graham Colm (talk) 23:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's best if it is linked here though. And I have re-worded that sentence. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 23:51, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. And the problem wording in that sentence is "with the singer wearing", the edit has not solved this. The Chart Performance section suffers from proseline, which is fact after fact that lacks flow and is boring to read. Graham Colm (talk) 00:07, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unlinked and removed. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 00:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There was no need for the talkback template that was posted on my user page because I watch all FACs that I review. But I guess it was meant to elicit further comments, so here are some. Spot the error here, "The songs conception was initiated by Dean", and here "The lawsuit resulted with Rihanna being ordered to pay LaChapelle an undisclosed sum of money." (We have discussed the problem in the second sentence numerous times before, in this and the previous FAC, but I can't get you to understand the error. My concerns regarding proseline have not been addressed or commented on. The article is still riddled with redundancy, for example, "these remixes were released as a digital remix package". And, how can reviewers consider this article for promotion when it now has a section that "is in the middle of an expansion or major restructuring". The article falls far below FA standards and I will not be withdrawing my oppose until I see a radical improvement in the quality of the prose throughout. Graham Colm (talk) 21:25, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have fixed those three points. And these is an under construction banner because a reviewer has said I should include a release section. Thus, instead of having a one line section, I have put the banner there so people know I haven't left it like it on purpose. And I left you a TB because I didn't know if you knew I had addressed your points. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 22:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The edits have not solved the problems. All that was needed here was an apostrophe as in "The song's conception was initiated by Dean", (but this is still an odd-sounding phrase). And here, another one "The lawsuit resulted with Rihanna's being ordered...". But your text now reads "The lawsuit resulted with Rihanna ordered to pay", which is not English". But, you could have written, "as a result, Rihanna was ordered to pay", which is much better. The redundancy here, "these remixes were released as a digital remix package" was only the repetition of "remix", but you seem to have deleted the whole sentence. Redundancy does not mean unnecessary facts – it means unnecessary words. A sign of professional prose is when every word is the right word and every word is in the right place, and when sentences carry no passengers. In essence, these are the problems that are constantly preventing the prose satisfying criterion 1a. Graham Colm (talk) 22:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Then why didn't you say only change one word? Writing the whole line implies that the whole line is not needed. Anyway, have fixed these points again. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
Because I asked you to spot the errors in an attempt to encourage critical self-editing, which, and has been lucidly pointed out by Oran below, is something you need to nurture. Graham Colm (talk) 22:59, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, well I've done everything you have asked to be changed. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
No you haven't, not by a long chalk. My comments are generic, not specific. I gave you examples only. Graham Colm (talk) 23:32, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you expect me to do then. Examples are specific, not generic. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 23:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Study this, which is the best guide to professional prose-writing on the Internet. Graham Colm (talk) 23:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
  • "With the release of the remix single, digital sales pushed the song to the top of the chart for one week gave Rihanna her tenth US number-one single on the Hot 100 chart and Spears her fifth."--Run on sentence.
  • "It reached number one in Australia, Canada and Poland, and on the UK R&B Chart. The song attained top-five positions in Germany, France, Ireland, and Spain as well as the UK R&B Chart."-- Did it peak at #1 or the top five on the UK R&B chart?
  • "Due to its content, was banned in several countries and restricted to nighttime television in others"-- Missing an "it" or "the video" right before "was banned...".
  • "The resolution of the lawsuit was announced on October 19, 2011, with the outcome that Rihanna was ordered to pay LaChapelle an undisclosed sum of money."--Repetitive and poor structure.
  • "Rihanna performed the song for the first time at the 2011 BRIT Awards at London's O2 Arena on February 15, 2011, as a part of a medley with "Only Girl (In the World)" and "What's My Name?""-- This sentence directly follows the mention of the lawsuit, and is jarring and non-linear.
  • This is just the intro! I'm not going to oppose. I'm tired of opposing. Calvin, the article has potential. But you need to write more carefully. These aren't mere grammatical errors. You just aren't being careful with what/how you write. Stop looking for the errors--your eyes are going to keep filling in the blanks for you. You need to read the article out loud to yourself, and you'll hear the gaps. Good luck. Orane (talk) 19:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The songs conception was initiated by Dean, who first developed "S&M"'s hook, "Na, na, na, c'mon.""...yeah, this sentence is not working. Needs to be restructured or removed altogether. The intro is better. Thanks for addressing my suggestions. The problem that I'm still having with "Rihanna performed the song for the first time at the 2011 BRIT Awards at London's O2 Arena, as a part of a medley..." is that it's just so non sequitur. Articles on pop songs/albums now seem to follow this template of stuffing the intro and an entire section in the article with info about when and where a song was performed. And the major problem is that it's often not properly contextualized. So here's a suggestion: remove that last bit from the intro and put it in the second paragraph. Then begin the sentence with something like "To promote the song, Rihanna performed it on this show and that show ..." That way, the info is at least placed within a promotional context and linked to the song's chart performance.
  • Rest of the article still needs copy-edit. I see you working on it. Good job and good luck! Orane (talk) 21:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning to Oppose Jivesh1205 (Talk) 18
50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

--->>> Prose and a few queries (From lead only)

  • It was released on January 21, 2011, as the album's fourth US single, and third international single - So this leads me to think that it was released both in the US and other countries on January 21, 2011
  • No, I never said worldwide on that one day. I said that it received international release on that day, meaning that from that day it was internationally released.
  • So you are leaving readers to interpret the information now? Is that what an FA is supposed to be? Do you think the way you worded that sentence will lead people to think that meaning that from that day it was internationally released? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:13, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "S&M" is a Eurodance and dance-pop song - That's all you will mention about the composition in the lead?
  • I see a major E in Eurodance in the lead but what happened in composition?
  • Don't you think it is necessary to briefly mention what motivated the development of the song in the lead?
  • No, it's worse now. My question / what I am asking for is simple? I want you to say how the song came about? But say it briefly without going into too much details? What was she thinking before starting to write? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I have. I've said how the song came about. She thought of the hook first, then the chorus. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • You think the sentence sounds good? The song's conception was initiated by Dean, who developed "S&M"'s hook, "Na, na, na, c'mon." You are in fact telling who initiated the song's conception and not what motivated its development. I know Dean is directly linked to its conception but try to lay more emphasis on what I have asked for. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:13, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • From lead: Critical reception of the song was mixed, as some reviewers criticized the song's overtly sexual lyrics, while others called it one of the best tracks from Loud.
  • From critical reception: "S&M" garnered positive responses from music critics.
  • Now you have to explain this to me.
  • reviewers - Do you think reviewers is good enough? I would have written music critics
  • Did you realize how many times you used the song in the first paragraph of the lead?
  • In April 2011, the song was re-released to digital outlets as a remix single, featuring guest vocals by American recording artist Britney Spears. This sentence can be a simple one and yet be miles better. Read it aloud five times and tell me if it sounds good.
  • It seems you did not understand. Now you have removed that Britney Spears feature on it? She is an A-list artist. Why did you remove that? We are not talking about a remix done featuring a DJ here. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No I haven't. It's at the bottom of the third paragraph. This makes the lead the same order as the body. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Oh my goodness. My point is that it looks awkward to mention that the remix pushed the song up to number one and then only later write that "a remix" was released on this or that date. It does not flow neither here in the lead nor in the body of the article. Don't just pay attention at the article. Pay attention to the order of the events. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:13, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is back in the first paragraph. Now, this is mentioned first, then how sales affected chart positions in the second paragraph. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • A whole paragraph for chart performance in the lead? I know the song was successful but you dedicate a whole paragraph to it? And it's even comparable to the size of the fist and last paragraph. Do we need details like "S&M" debuted at number 53 on the US Billboard Hot 100 chart upon the album's release, and peaked at number two. With the release of the remix single, digital sales pushed the song to the top of the chart for one week. This gave Rihanna her tenth US number-one single on the Hot 100 chart and Spears her fifth. The song also peaked at number one on the Billboard Hot Dance Club Songs chart and Pop Songs chart?
    Yes, the Hot 100 isn't the only chart worth mentioning. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Again, you did not understand. Do we need to know "S&M" debuted at number 53 on the US Billboard Hot 100 chart upon the album's release?
  • And " digital sales pushed the song to the top of the chart for one week"?
  • Have put a colon there. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • A colon does not help. It is till not good. "With the release of the remix single, digital sales pushed the song to the top of the chart for one week; this gave Rihanna her tenth US number-one single on the Hot 100 chart and Spears her fifth." What do you mean by that? It did not have digital sales before? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of course I know that. :P My point is that why you say With the release of the remix single, sales placed the song to the top of the chart for one week. That leads me to think that the song started selling only when the remix was available. I am beginning to think that you do not pay attention to what we tell you; I mean you do not make an effort to understand what is being dawn to your attention. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:13, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I put that digital sales placed the song at #1 because it was only realeased digitally. It's rather simple. But have now said "placed" instead of "pushed", as you said to change it. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Exactly. The week the remix was released, it went to #1 Jivesh. This is 100% accurate and what happened. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • You are wrong again. Downloads from the remix alone did not take the song to number one. Downloads from the album version when combined those from the remix helped it top the Hot 100 chart. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:40, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm wrong that the week the remix was released it went to #1? No, I'm right Jivesh. But yes, combined sales made it number. But what I was saying was that with the sales of the remix, that was what made the song number one. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Did I say that? That was your interpretation and that does not surprise me at all. And if you are still arguing, then let me tell you that this not how you will get your FAC passed. We are all trying to help you here. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 17:54, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The song attained top-five positions in Germany, France, Ireland, and Spain as well as the UK Singles Chart. - Why that wording? And attained top-five positions in... the UK Singles Chart?
    Fixed. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • It reached number one in Australia, Canada and Poland, and on the UK R&B Chart. --> still bad. And why the extra and? Didn't you read my previous comment? What about It reached number one on the singles chart in Australia, Canada, Poland, and on the UK R&B Chart.?
  • "It reached number one on the singles chart in Australia, Canada, Poland, and on the UK R&B Chart." Why say single chart, which is singular, then list countries, which is plural? Have included it anyway. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • The third paragraph of the lead needs a complete make over. It is good to join short sentences but join the appropriate ones together.
  • I only say video twice Jivesh. I use "it" a lot more.
  • My point is the proximity at which you are using those words. "Due to its content, the video was banned in several countries and was restricted to nighttime television in others. The video spawned a lawsuit when photographer David LaChapelle alleged that it used imagery from his photo shoot for Vogue Italia." You need to examine what is being told to you. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:13, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does the reader need to know in lead that "S&M" was performed as a medley? You even add the date. I don't see how that performance was iconic / special enough for you to give all these details here.
  • Yes, because she didn't performance S&M in it's entirety.
  • Really? Why do we need to know the date and the location in the lead? Was it an iconic performance? I doubt it was. Again, I feel like you did not read and understand my comment properly. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove the date. That was the performance Jivesh. It's no different to saying that an entire song was performed. It's misleading to write that she performed it for the first time when it was less than 1 minutes worth. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • I still not see why we need all that detail in the lead? And if I had to choose the most notable performance, it would be the Billboard one. That would save you from adding unnecessary details or clarifications that the song was performed as a medley. Frankly, should we really know it was a medley wit h"x" and "y" songs? This is only a lead. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not saying it was a medley is not providing accuracy. I'm not budging on this one. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Most importantly, how did critics receive the video? You must let the reader know since you clearly indicated that it was a response to critics.

Jivesh1205 (Talk) 18:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • and restricted to nighttime television in others - Spot the error

--->>> Infobox

--->>> Background and conception

  • Link all the writers / producers again.
    Linked. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • The first sentence is confusing. You write "under their stage". Well, writers do not write songs under their stage name. They produce songs under their stage name. If you can make a good sentence with the appropriate words, you may be able to combine the first and second sentence. Try something. If you are not able, I will do it for you.
    Have written: with production helmed for the former three. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • You should make the first paragraph connect to the song. As it is now, it seems like you are talking about Rihanna's fantasies.
    Doing. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • an interview for Rolling Stone... an interview with Gail Mitchell for Billboard... an interview for The Boom Box ... in an interview for Spin magazine ---> Be consistent, will you give the author's name or not? If there is one, I see no harm in adding it.
    Rolling Stone there wasn't one. Billboard there was. The Boom Box there wasn't. Spin there wasn't. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • The Boom Box is a magazine.
    Italicised. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Rihanna has an "alter ego"? If yes, don't put it in quotes. However, I am surprised. she never talked about it, right?
    Perhaps it is one that isn't very public. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Dean spoke about the process of writing songs for Rihanna in an interview for The Boom Box, and explained that she wanted to channel Rihanna's "alter ego" and use it as inspiration for writing "S&M"'s lyrics. - Extremely long.
    Split into two sentences. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • "S&M" is the fourth single from Rihanna's fifth studio album, Loud, and was sent to US Top 40/Mainstream and rhythmic radio station playlists on January 25, 2011.[7] Why is it here? We are working for FA, right? I think everything should be put in an appropriate section.
  • You have enough material here to write a decent release section.
    Okay. Will do. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • On a general note, the Background and conception seems like a quotefarm. I suggest paraphrasing where possible.
    Paraphrased the Spin quote. Now there is only one quote per paragraph.
  • I appreciate your effort but it's isn't quite to the level of the prose to be in an FA. The singer continued to say that the songs message is a way of saying that people can talk about something a person has done, that they will always find something negative to say and it cannot be helped. Read it yourself. Read it aloud. Does it sound good? And spot the mistake(s). Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jivesh1205 (Talk) 08:49, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

--->>> Composition

  • That music sample caption is a repetition of what is in the background section. So you are using a music sample to show what Rihanna feels about the song?
    Re-wrote. Included info about the sample, hook and instruments. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • The correct word it uptempo.
    Corrected. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Why is groove linked to tempo?
    Changed to beat. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • If you are linking sheet music, why not link instrumentation as well?
    Linked. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • What is "ear-frotting"?
    It's the description given by the critic. Frotting is a sexual term, so I guess he is relating to that in a weird way. Removed it anyway. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • And even after x number of instances, it is still wrong: The instrumentation of "S&M" consists of synthesizers, pounding beats,[9] and keyboard sounds. Since when are keyboard sounds instruments? And pounding beats are instruments as well? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • So, this sentence is totally wrong - The instrumentation of "S&M" consists of "ear-frotting" hooks, synths and pounding beats.
    Removed: "ear-frotting" hooks, Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • However, keyboard is an instrumentation and I cannot understand why it isn't here.
    It is there, look at the next line. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Ryan continued, writing that "S&M" was similar to "Only Girl (In the World)" - What aspect?
    Added in. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Really? For me, it is till the same. Ryan continued, writing that "S&M" was similar to "Only Girl (In the World)"'s production, the lead single released from Loud, which was also produced by Stargate. - What was he comparing? Which aspect? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The organisation of the content is pretty award. You speak about vocals, then move to similarities, and then to lyrics all in one paragraph?
    Lyrics is by itself now. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • However, she explained that the song should not be interpreted literally, but rather, metaphorically. I can no longer count the number of says this sentence has been used though re-written.
    Removed. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • Close repetition of chant/chanting.
    There is no repetition of those. I use chant once and chanting once. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • During the chorus, the singer "frostily chants" the lines "Cause I may be bad, but I'm perfectly good at it / Sex in the air, I don't care, I love the smell of it."[16] After chanting the lines "Cause I may be bad, but I'm perfectly good at it / Sex in the air, I don't care, I love the smell of it," Rihanna sings the line "Sticks and stones may break my bones / But chains and whips excite me."[17] James Skinner of BBC Music described her delivery of the line as "forced", criticizing her for not projecting a "daring" sound. - What is this?
    What do you mean? Calvin • Watch n' Learn
  • I am telling you for the last time. Read it aloud and pay attention. "During the chorus, the singer "frostily chants" the lines "Cause I may be bad, but I'm perfectly good at it / Sex in the air, I don't care, I love the smell of it."[15] After singing the lines "Cause I may be bad, but I'm perfectly good at it / Sex in the air, I don't care, I love the smell of it ...". How can you be so ignorant? This is the limit. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 06:13, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • James Skinner of BBC Music described her delivery of the line as "forced", criticizing her for not projecting a "daring" sound.[17] Nathan S. of DJ Booth echoed Skinner's opinion of the line, writing that Rihanna delivered it in an "un-sultry" manner and "light pop voice".[18] Meg Sullivan of The Music Magazine criticized the hook, "Na na na, c'mon," citing it as "a classic sign of 'I had nothing else decent to write'."[19] - Wait, is this composition or critical reception? As far as i see, you are not explaining, you are quoting the description / remarks of critics. This is purely critical reception. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 09:05, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    They are talking about the lyrics I have written about. And I have expanded upon what they have said.
  • I write it again, this is pure critical reception. James Skinner of BBC Music described her delivery of the line as "forced", criticizing her for not projecting a "daring" or convincing sound.[16] Nathan S. of DJ Booth noted that Rihanna delivered it in an "un-sultry" manner and not committing to what she is singing about.[17] Meg Sullivan of The Music Magazine criticized the hook, "Na na na, c'mon," citing it as a line which was included in order to fill a gap. And you tell me the contrary? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

--->>> Release and reception

  • In the United States, "S&M" was the fourth single to be released from Loud, and was made available to download on January 21, 2011 This sentence can be much better --> "S&M" was released digitally, as the fourth US single from Loud, on January 21, 2011.
  • US Top 40/Mainstream - Why not change it to contemporary hit radio? It is the same thing and this will let you not use the x/y format. Actually Top 40 and mainstream are the same thing. Same for rhythmic. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 07:22, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was sent to US Top 40/Mainstream and rhythmic radio station playlists on January 25, 2011.[18] The song was sent to US urban radio station playlists on March 8, 2011. - Can easily be one sentence if you choose the correct words and clauses.
  • to download digitally - I know we download digitally, so please reword.
  • What is the sentence doing here? On April 11, 2011, the remix single featuring Spears was made available to download digitally worldwide.[22] You have not even talked about the remix yet in the body of the article. So, you will need to re-arrange the whole article / move some sections.
  • Outside of the United States, the song was the third single to be released from the album. It was released on February 11, 2011, in Spain to download digitally[20] and was released on March 18, 2011, in Germany as a CD single. - Repetitive
  • "S&M" garnered mixed responses from music critics. Sal Cinquemani of Slant Magazine, and Thomas Conner of the Chicago Sun Times wrote that "S&M" was reminiscent of Rihanna's previous album, Rated R (2009). - Did they discuss any aspect?
  • Precisely by divesting sex of emotion and re-imagining violence as fetish ("sticks and stone may break my bones / but chains and whips excite me") can fit in composition.
    The entire quote? Aaron • You Da One
  • Repetitive use of the song.
  • Why is beat linked again?
  • Forgive me for this but the critical reception is a QUOTEFARM. A critical reception section is normally supposed to made up of quotes but this one is the limit. Every single line has been quoted here. Please attempt to paraphrase some of them. And some of the quotes are simply giant (if I can use this word).
  • In the UK, "S&M" was deemed too explicit for daytime airplay, was edited to remove all references to sex, chains, and whips, and was renamed "Come On" for BBC Radio 1. - Bad sentence. Reword and break it into two or use a semi-colon.
  • Is there anymore information about the daytime ban? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 07:22, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    No, that's all there is. It was just banned from radio. Well I say banned, whenever I heard it they just removed half of the chorus and bleeped out those three words. And I have address all other points for this section. Aaron • You Da One 14:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

---> Second review by Jivesh

This time I will only quote the bad prose / structure of sentences and you see the changes you should bring. I think i have explained enough now.
  • 1) Lead
  • on February 11, 2011, as the third worldwide single. - Again same thing. Was it released on that date itself in all countries outside the US. I won't come on his gain. You have to be more careful. This should be the fourth of fifth time I m pointing at this sentence.
    Reworded/disambiguated "worldwide". Yes, everywhere but the US on Feb 11. Aaron • You Da One
  • Inspired by channelling Rihanna's alter-ego, Dean conceptualized and developed "S&M"'s hook, "Na, na, na, c'mon."
    Removed alter-ego. Aaron • You Da One
  • up-tempo dance-pop and eurodance song - Spot the mistake. You have to learn from your mistakes. I see you instead repeat them.
    I don't see a mistake. Aaron • You Da One
  • "S&M" was re-released as a remix single, and featured guest vocals by American recording artist Britney Spears. It was made available to download digitally worldwide on April 11, 2011. - Find a better place for this information
    It has to stay here because I talk about how the remix helped it peak at #1 in the second paragraph. In the third wouldn't make sense. Aaron • You Da One
  • Critical reception of "S&M" was mixed, as music critics criticized the song's overtly sexual lyrics, and others called it one of the best tracks from Loud.
    Replaced "and" with "whilst". Plus reworded the first clause. Aaron • You Da One
  • Upon its release as a single - Necessary?
    Removed. Aaron • You Da One
  • With the release of the remix single, combined sales placed the song to the top of the chart for one week - Unnecessary detail. I can no longer count the number of times I wrote this. And combined sales of what?
    Reworded. Aaron • You Da One
  • However, with combined sales from a remix version featuring guest vocals by American recording artist Britney Spears, "S&M" became Rihanna's tenth US number-one single on the Hot 100 chart, and Spears fifth - This sentence is imply bad. The previous one (though it was not good) was better. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It peaked at number one on the Billboard Hot Dance Club Songs chart and Pop Songs chart. - Billboard or US? Think well before replying. Don't be in a haste.
    I've put US. Aaron • You Da One
  • It reached number one on the singles chart in Australia, Canada, Poland, and in the United Kingdom on the R&B Chart. - Something here reads awkwardly
    Really? Have reworded it.
  • Yes, it really did or lease I would not have written here. The song peaked at number one on the US Hot Dance Club Songs chart and Pop Songs chart, and also reached number one on the singles chart in Australia, Canada, Poland, and on the UK R&B Chart. is long and over-detailed. Do we need to know about Billboard component charts in the lead now? That's too much. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The song attained top-five positions in Germany, France, Ireland, Spain, and in the United Kingdom. - Read and look for the correction to be made.
    Removed UK. Aaron • You Da One
  • There is frankly too much about the Chart performance in the lead. Too much.
    I disagree. It became her 10th #1, the shortest time ever for an artist to get as many. This is a very important detail. The rest is a mere overview. Aaron • You Da One
  • To promote the song, Rihanna performed the song at the 2011 BRIT Awards at London's O2 Arena, as a part of a medley with "Only Girl (In the World)" and "What's My Name?". - For the last time, this is only a lead. We do not need details like it was performed as a medley or anything else. There is not anything which makes this performance iconic, so please stop with these details. And that sentence itself is not a good one.
    Well, we will have to agree to disagree! Because technically, she didn't sing S&M, only a verse and chorus. No one else see's this as a problem. Aaron • You Da One

2) Background and conception

  • Ester Dean did additional writing. - It does not connect well with the previous sentence and it is rough as User:Adabow said.
    Actually, it wasn't me who wrote that. Rather, someone who commented on this review. But have changed anyway. Aaron • You Da One
  • The song was recorded in 2010 during Rihanna's Last Girl on Earth Tour, at Roc the Mic Studios in New York City, Westlake Recording Studios in Los Angeles and The Bunker Studios in Paris - Was the tour taking place at the "at Roc the Mic Studios in New York City, Westlake Recording Studios in Los Angeles and The Bunker Studios in Paris"? That's the impression you will givea reader who does not know Rihanna.
    Made clearer. Aaron • You Da One
  • In an interview for Rolling Stone, Rihanna spoke about her interest in bondage and other S&M activities, saying: "I like to take charge, but I love to be submissive ... being submissive in the bedroom is really fun. You get to be a little lady, to have somebody be macho and in charge. That's sexy to me."[2] Lindsay Goldwert of Daily News felt that Rihanna's comments on the types of sexual activity that she enjoys may be part of a healing process, after she was assaulted by her former-boyfriend Chris Brown in February 2009. - I will request you for the last time to make this connect to the song.
    Done. Aaron • You Da One
  • "I wrote it, Father forgive me, on a Sunday. The track was already there. The first thing that came to me was 'Come on, come on.' I'm thinking, 'I don't know what in the hell this is about to be.' And I remembered I'd seen something that said, 'Sticks and stones may break my bones.' Then came 'But chains and whips excite me.' And I'm like, 'Oh, my God, I got to write that.' I'm in the studio with the engineer and just kept looking at him, asking, 'Is that OK?' And he says, 'I like it.' When people have a great track that speaks to me, it feels like it already has a story in it." - Will you put that in an encyclopedia or should i say an FAC?
    Have shortened the quote. Aaron • You Da One
  • Dean spoke about the process of writing songs for Rihanna in an interview for The Boom Box. She explained that she wanted to channel Rihanna's alter ego and use it as inspiration for writing "S&M"'s lyrics.[5] Dean praised Rihanna for her ability to take risks with her music, saying: "Rihanna will say things that other chicks won't say. That's Rihanna. Music is about fantasy. This is what people want to do, but are afraid to do." According to the interview, all this is about "Rude Boy", nor "S&M".
    This was given to me by Orane at the last FAC. It still relates to S&M, as she wrote both. It still applies. Aaron • You Da One
    Why did you remove it then? What's the point of arguing and then removing it without letting the reviewer know. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Because it's obvious that you wanted it removed! Aaron • You Da One
    You should have written Removed then. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 18:30, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The singer continued to say that the meaning behind the song was inspired by how people can talk about something a person has done, but they will always find something negative to say, concluding that it cannot be prevented. Avoid verbose structure (I am telling this for the sixth or seventh time).
    Done? Lol. Aaron • You Da One
    I see you have re-written it. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeppp. Aaron • You Da One

3) Composition and lyrical interpretation

  • I am happy you used one of the compositions I have written as a model.
  • I don't think the length of a song is required here but I won't argue if you want to leave it.
  • The music sheet says guitar not guitar strings.
    The guitar doesn't produce the sound Jivesh, it's the strings attached to the guitar which creates the sound. Instruments with strings on them are collectively known as string instruments anyway.
  • Bass beats is not an instrument and it is not sourced. Did you mix up the sources?
    Bass is created by using a keyboard and string instruments, which are both used. Have removed anyway. Aaron • You Da One
  • Stargate and Vee arranged the songs instrumental - What is this sentence doing here?
    Because they did? I'll remove it then. Aaron • You Da One
  • Chris Ryan of MTV Buzzworthy compared "S&M" to "Only Girl (In the World)"'s production, the lead single released from Loud, which was produced by Stargate. - How did you reach to the conclusion that he was referring to the production?
    Because he as talking about the production. Aaron • You Da One
  • a sexually aggressive tone in her vocal performance - Looks like a bad sentence
    How? Aaron • You Da One
  • Unlink sadomasochism in second paragraph.
    Unlinked. Aaron • You Da One
  • The lyrics of "S&M" revolve around sex, sadomasochism, bondage and BSDM fetishes, as Rihanna describes her sexual fantasies and turn-ons. - Re-write or cut in to two.
    Used a semi-colon (;) Aaron • You Da One
  • It was described by Meg Sullivan of The Music Magazine as a case of "I had nothing else decent to write." - Isn't this CR?
    I haven't said criticized or used any word indicating that it is being critical. So no. Aaron • You Da One
  • Rihanna provides the juxtaposition that although she acts in a non-conservative manner, implying she is "bad", that is not the case in the bedroom, confirming that she is "good" at performing sex. - Hmm, I think you know by now what is to be done.
    Hmm, reworded a bit. Aaron • You Da One
  • You rewording did not improve it. Please work more on it. Jivesh1205 (Talk)
  • After singing these lines, Rihanna sings the line
    Changed to chants. Aaron • You Da One
  • The singer proposes her fantasies and turn-ons to the listener - Isn't this a repetition?
    Removed. Aaron • You Da One
  • Can you write a better music caption? Are you sing it to demonstrate that "S&M" features the sampled synth line from Depeche Mode's song "Master and Servant"? If yes, let me tell you, it won't work. As that can perfectly be expressed into written words.
  • The other line also does not work though I think it is much better than the previous one. You need a good caption.
    Doing. Aaron • You Da One
You have done it, right? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 05:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

4) Remixes

  • Is that a block-quote? Sorry, but it's difficult to know with an image to the left. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 12:06, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • An official remix of "S&M", featuring rapper J. Cole, was released on January 17, 2011. - Was it really released as you wrote?
  • An official remix of "S&M", featuring rapper J. Cole, was released on January 17, 2011.[17] It was remixed by DJs Dave Audé, Sidney Samson and Joe Bermudez; these remixes were released as a digital package. Read this, does it sound good? I feel like you want to say "[The remix of "S&M"] was remixed by DJs Dave Audé, Sidney Samson and Joe Bermudez; these remixes were released as a digital package.]
  • Compare this from the composition section: ""Cause I may be bad, but I'm perfectly good at it / Sex in the air, I don't care, I love the smell of it." to this from the remix section: "Shut me up, gag and bound me/'Cause the pain is my pleasure/Nothing comes better", and correct your mistakes.
  • In a radio interview - Name of radio?
  • I asked my fans last week who they wanted me to collaborate with, and Britney was one of the most popular names. is a repetition of what has already been written. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 12:06, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

5) Release look good now. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 12:06, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • "S&M" was the third worldwide. US also forms part of the world, so change world to international.
  • Consider linking iTunes
Sources--minus spotchecks--and media

Reliability

  • Please establish the high quality reliablity of these sources: Boombox, DJ Booth, Masterbeat (possible dead link), Allaccess
    The Boom Box (was given to me by Orane in the last FAC) and is owned by AOL, and owns the trademark. DJ Booth: "© The DJ Booth LLC. Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.". I don't know about Masterbeat, apart from the owner worked for IBM. Allaccess: "AllAccess.com is owned and operated by All Access Music Group, Inc, a privately held corporation formed in 1995, by President/Publisher Joel Denver and his wife and partner, VP/CFO & Operations Ria Denver." Calvin • Watch n' Learn
    That doesn't quite explain what makes these high quality reliable sources. What are the article authors' qualifications? What about the experience and bylines of the author, publisher and editor-in-chief. Have highly reputed sites cited these web sites? Sure Boombox is published by AOL, but that does not quite explain why it is reliable. Urlesque and PopEater (both published by AOL) are not quite high-quality-reliable, so what makes this one different? Take it from this approach. In place of AllAccess, you can try Radio and Records and see if they have the information. Regarding DJ Booth, just because the content is free does not make it reliable. Again, look at the background of the authors, editors and publishers to see what kind of fact-checking they do. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Removed Masterbeat and replaced with iTunes. The Boom Box interviewed Dean herself, so they must be pretty reliable to get an interview with her. Nathan S is a paid employee of DJ Booth, I have emailed him asking for his qualifications. Calvin • Watch n' Learn
    Nathan from DJ booth replied to me:

"We're being questioned as a high quality source? I'm actually offended. DJBooth has been active for over six year, becoming one of the premiere destinations for urban music and averaging over 1 million unique visitors a month. Part of the Complex Media Network, DJBooth is also a digital distribution company that has exclusively released Yelawolf's "Trunk Muzik" (Interscope), Big K.R.I.T.'s "KRIT Wuz Here" (Def Jam) and many more. We are also a privately owned company headquartered in Brooklyn, with offices in Chicago in L.A. Hope that helps, really appreciate you fighting to get Wikipedia to include that link Aaron.

Peace, Nathan"

Okay, but with all due respect to Nathan, he didn't explain his qualifications or the site's fact-checking etc. It sounded more like promoting tbh. This does not look promising either. You're on the right track though. Plus, just because Boombox did an interview does not mean it is a high-quality reliable source? What kind of fact-checking does the site do? Author qualifications? —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:39, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Boombox and DJ Booth were removed after extensive discussion on my talk page. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 03:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I might be wrong, but I'm not quite sure about the reputation of Justia.
    It's the official court documentation. Calvin • Watch n' Learn

Italicization

Publisher notation

General inconsistencies and errors in refs

Media

Oppose for now. Please address issues so that I can strike out my oppose. Article may need some copy editing per above reviewers, but not opposing based on this. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 20:25, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for commenting Penguin. I'm at uni all day tomorrow but will try and get some of these done in my breaks. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 00:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You need to have a better look for inconsistencies in the references. Take your time however. I'd also like to add that that you can't just have a {{under construction}} in a featured article candidate. The article was supposed to have been complete and ready before FAC. But I hope what you're doing at this stage is drastically going to improve things. Thanks and cheers, —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the banner, I didn't make a dedicated section, not enough info. It's in with the reviews. Calvin • Watch n' Learn 23:23, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, issues still lie throughout. Not striking my oppose yet. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 03:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I'll have a more thorough look in a couple of hours. —Andrewstalk 06:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • The theme of the song is absent from the lead
    Added. Aaron • You Da One
  • "Critical reception of "S&M" was mixed, as music critics criticized the song's overtly sexual lyrics, and others called it one of the best tracks from Loud." - "music critics" implies all of them, which makes "others" a bit confusing
    Has been reworded. Aaron • You Da One
  • " It reached number one on the singles chart in Australia, Canada, Poland..." - implies there is one chart for all these countries
    I know WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS will probably be thrown back in my face, but this is actually the same to a recently appointed Rihanna FA.
  • "Ester Dean did additional writing." - sounds rough
    Has been reworded. Aaron • You Da One
  • "former-boyfriend" - why the hyphen?
    Removed. Aaron • You Da One
  • Is the "I wrote it, Father forgive me, on a Sunday." part of the quote really necessary in an encyclopaedia?
    Yes. "S&M" is a sexually provocative and blasphemous song. The fact that Ester Dean started writing it on a Sunday of all days (I'm sure you understand why, Christianity and all) is an important point. Aaron • You Da One
    Yes, as a practicing Catholic I understand the significance of Sundays, but I disagree that the day of writing is important. —Andrewstalk 04:09, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Removed the first sentence. Aaron • You Da One

I'm going to have to oppose on prose quality at the moment. See WP:1A for advice and exercises on how to improve prose quality. —Andrewstalk 07:07, 21 January 2012 (UTC) Further comments[reply]

  • "The lyrics of "S&M" revolve around sex, sadomasochism, bondage and BSDM fetishes." - a few redundant words here, considering what BSDM stands for. Perhaps simply remove "BSDM"?
    Removed BDSM. Aaron • You Da One
  • In the 'Radio and release history' section, what is the point of lumping several references into one inline citation when the citation is repeated for each country? Either separate the references or place the joint citation in the format cell, spanning several countries. Adding onto that, why are references #12 and #27 not merged (if you choose to stick with that format)?
    What do you mean "place the joint citation in the format cell". I don't understand. And what do you mean about 12 and 27? 12 Is the album version single released in South America on Feb 11, 2011, and 27 is the remix single ft. Spears released worldwide on April 11, 2011. They aren't the same. Aaron • You Da One
    OK, so all the February 28, 2011 remix package releases use the same inline citation, right? Why repeat that citation for every country? Why not place the citation next to "remix package"? And no, both #12 and #27 are for the February 11, 2011 digital download. —Andrewstalk 20:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Done both. Aaron • You Da One 21:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the 'See also' list in any particular order? Alphabetical would be the way to go, I think.
    Have put in order or country, then by component chart (if applicable). Aaron • You Da One
  • In the 'Copyright infringement lawsuits' section, why is the first letter of the blockquote bracketed?
    Probably because it was lower case to start with. Aaron • You Da One
  • "Rihanna opened the Billboard Music Awards, with a performance of the "S&M" remix..." - misuse of comma
    Removed. Aaron • You Da One

I'm sorry, but I can't list every prose issue. I suggest printing a copy of the article out and taking a pen or highlighter to it. Have a few looks at it, with substantial breaks in between. Fresh eyes are better at spotting mistakes. Read the article aloud to yourself, too. —Andrewstalk 04:09, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Andrew. Aaron • You Da One 14:25, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Infobox
  • Why is Rihanna wikilinked twice? (single by... and chronology)
Lead
  • "It was released on January 21, 2011, as the album's fourth United States single". Why not just abbreviate United States with US?
  • Instrumentation should be un-linked, everyone knows what is a "instrumentation" esp knowingly that "S&M" is a song.
  • I told the nominator to wiki-link it for consistency. If he unlinks this, there will be countless other terms he will have to unlink. And the sentence "everyone knows what is a "instrumentation" is an assumption of yours, right? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you explain why all the other instruments are wikilinked but synthesizers isn't?
  • "The song attained top-five positions in Germany, France, Ireland and Spain" --> changed it to "It attained..."
  • Sadomasochism is wikilinked twice in the lead
  • Why is Sexual fetishism wikilinked at the second occurrence in the lead?
Background and conception
  • Why not just place Ref#1 at the end of the first sentence?
Composition and lyrical interpretation
  • Not sure why this "(Some Great Reward, 1984)" is even needed?
  • sadomasochism is wikilinked three times in the article body (once in the previous section, once in this section, and once in the critical reception)
  • Consider un-linking Instrumentation.
  • Again not sure why all other instruments are wikilinked and not the synthesizers, guitar is a very common word btw.
  • "Only Girl (In the World), - is missing the end quote.
Remixes
  • Why isn't Spears' wikilinked here? She is only wikilined in the "Live performances" section.
Critical reception
  • hook (music) is wikilinked twice in this article (once in composition and once in this section)
  • Why isn't USA Today wikilinked?
Reception and ban
  • YouTube is wikilinked twice in this article (once in the previous section and once in this section)
  • I'm not sure if its okay to wikilink all relevant information if its already wikilined in the article. Can someone explain?
Copyright infringement lawsuits
  • "LaChapelle alleged that the video infringed upon eight of his photographs published in GQ, i-D, Australian Vogue, and elsewhere between 1997 and 2010." - However, the lead says Vouge Italia not Australian Vogue.
Live performances
  • Only Girl (In the World) is wikilinked twice in this article (once in the composition section and once on this section)
  • "received following the final of the seventh series of The X Factor, on December 11, 2010. " - do you mean "finale"?
  • We know who is Spears by this time, removed the wikilink and just write Spears

Hope for the best, Jonayo! Selena 4 ever 02:34, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is an extremely long FAC, with multiple opposes on multiple issues and no support after almost ten days. This article will have a better shot if it comes back fresh in a couple weeks, after all of the current opposers are satisfied. Good luck! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:20, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 19:41, 20 January 2012 [35].

Broken Sword: The Shadow of the Templars

Nominator(s): Khanassassin (talk) 18:08, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... It meets FA criteria, plus it has also been through GA... Khanassassin (talk) 18:08, 19 January 2012 (UTC) - BTW, I'm also The IP User --193.111.221.60 (talk), who made the article a GA, and now also (hopefully) a FA... :)[reply]

Oppose: This nomination looks premature; the article was promoted to GA only on 17 January. FA criteria tend to be strictly enforced in the FAC review process, which among other things requires prose to be "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard". I have identified issues of grammar, spelling and punctuation in the brief lead section. I can see other points requiring similar attention in the main body of the article. Here are the lead points:-

  • The word "released" occurs three times in the first one-and-a half lines
  • "It has also been ported to the Mobile phone" - you should find better phrasing, and remove the capital from "Mobile"
  • "mid-90's": No apostrophe required (and better as "mid-1990s")
  • "The player assumes George Stobbart" doesn't make sense. Do you mean "The player assumes the identity of George Stobbart"?
  • "George Stobart" should be placed in quotes to emphasise his fictional character  Done
  • The hyphen after "George Stobart" should be either an ndash or an mdash, but punctuation with a comma would do as well
  • eyewitness" is one word
  • "while dining together" is too trivial a detail for the lead
  • "The game is serious in tone, but consist also of humor..." Spot the error
  • "diauloge"?
  • "The Game was spawned by a number of sequels..." This makes absolutely no sense. I assume the words "was" and "by" should be removed? If that is the case you will need to reorganise the next sentence ("Charles also led..." etc)
  • "Revolution released a remake in 2009" Who, or what, is "Revolution"?

Preparation for FAC usually involves a close copyedit from an editor who has a high degree of skill with prose. At present your best bet may be to withdraw this and renominate after a period of careful preparation. Brianboulton (talk) 21:44, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm done with the lead issues! --Khanassassin (talk) 14:28, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please see instructions at WT:FAC and avoid editing other editors' entries, please sign your entries, and templates cause errors in the FAC archives due to Wikipedia:Template limits. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:39, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and suggest withdrawal. This is not nearly polished enough to be presented at FAC. A quick glance reveals many issues: Sasata (talk) 17:56, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • inconsistent placement of citations after punctuation
  • improper/inconsistent use of which/that
  • many short one or two sentences "paragraphs"
  • prose is not brilliant, nor of a professional standard. A small sampling:
  • "After writing her story up, her editor Ronnie tells her to drop it at which Nico becomes angry."
  • "Charles decided to contact him to suggest that he writes the music. Barrington then took the offer."
  • "So, he decided..."
  • "In edition to working on the visual references for the game,"
  • "App Spy praised the game's great looking visual presentation, excellent touch screen controls and challenging puzzle gameplay, and called it a must own game, even for newcomers to the genre, but stated that the hint system can make things too simple, and that the auto-save function isn't the greatest."
  • "Francis Rizo III of Video Game Talk stated that Broken Sword with its engagingly deep storyline, gorgeous art, fun writing, entertaining puzzles and terrific vocal cast, just raised the bar to a level that will be incredibly hard to meet for any game, and that people should buy it, as it is fun and its success may spur developers to take another look at this somewhat dormant genre, supplementing the wave of Wii ports with something new and original." is this a quote?


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 19:41, 20 January 2012 [36].

IPad

Nominator(s): -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it has been a GA since June 2010 and has improved further since then and seems ready for the next stage now. Thanks in advance for your comments. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Copyscape search – The Lead might need revising slightly to avoid close paraphrasing with content on this website, [37] which has, "The iPad is particularly marketed as a platform for audio and visual media such as books, periodicals, movies, music, and games, as well as web content. At about 1.5 pounds (680 grams), its size and weight are between those of most contemporary smartphones and laptop computers. Apple sold 3 million of the devices in 80 days after the release." There is also some duplicated content here [38], which is not a concern because although the text is not attributed to Wikipedia, it contains the same internal links and has clearly been copied from our article. Graham Colm (talk) 16:44, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

From the first link if you expand it "This page has been adapted from the Wikipedia entry of December 9, 2010." - that said I don't think they've done a particularly good job of attributing the content. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:54, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, sorry I missed the small print. Best of luck with the rest of the FAC. Graham Colm (talk) 16:59, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No problem - I missed it too at first :). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:41, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inclined to oppose, sorry. Sampling the "usage" section, there are quite a few problems. Generally, the section is very choppy, jumping from random factoids to unsourced general statements about the uses to which the Ipad can be put. Some specific issues:
  • Many colleges and universities have also used the iPad. Source? How do they use it?
  • Youngstown State University in Youngstown, Ohio, began offering three-hour rentals for the iPad for its Fall 2010 semester, in addition to rentals for the Amazon Kindle, laptop computers, and Flip cameras. Why is one university significant enough to be mentioned? The source cited is not independent, so it's not like this is an obviously notable factoid that's been picked up in the news.
  • In the healthcare field, iPads and iPhones have been used to help hospitals manage their supply chain. Source? The only source for this paragraph looks spammy.[39]
  • During the 2010 Major League Baseball free agent season, the agent for the player Carl Crawford was sending iPads to prospective teams interested in Mr. Crawford. Significance? "Mr Crawford"?
  • "NFL" is wikilinked twice in one paragraph and never spelt out. Our readers aren't not all Americans.
  • In sports, new technology proposes the viewer to choose its alternative angles while watching the game. ??
  • The iPad is able to support many music creation applications in addition to the iTunes music playback software. These include sound samplers, guitar and voice effects processors, sequencers for synthesized sounds and sampled loops, virtual synthesizers and drum machines, theremin-style and other touch responsive instruments, drum pads and many more. Source? These two sentences read like an ad.
  • During 2011 the iPad has shown popularity among the protestors in the December 2011 political protests in Russia. (1) Tense problems "has shown"; (2) convoluted wording; (3) what's the significance? Were the protesters using the Ipad to help their cause, or just playing video games? --Mkativerata (talk) 23:20, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - I commend the work that's gone into this article, but I don't feel it currently meets the FA criteria. Here are some specific concerns:

Comment - Don't mix % and percent. P. S. Burton (talk) 13:07, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I will try and have a good look through the more difficult issues tomorrow, but otherwise I am busy this weekend so won't be able to take a look then :(. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:01, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

That's up to where I've read thus far. Tony (talk) 10:28, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose sorry for doing this, but I feel there are several outstanding issues. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 06:37, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 19:41, 20 January 2012 [40].

24: The Game

Nominator(s): Steven Zhang Join the DR army! 21:53, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it meets the criteria. I have gone through the article and made some small changes. I am not the most significant contributor to the article by far, however think I can make the necessary changes to have this article promoted. Steven Zhang Join the DR army! 21:53, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Media review

—Andrewstalk 22:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support based on criterion 3 only —Andrewstalk 05:48, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose for now. This is a solid article, but I don't think that it's of FA quality yet. In particular, some of the prose needs work and the final section of the article is unpolished. My comments are below, and as a disclaimer I should note that I'm one of the few people in the English-speaking world who've never watched an episode of 24! — Nick-D 23:01, December 29, 2011 UTC — continues after insertion below
    • "The Game was nominated for a BAFTA award for its screenplay elements." - you should note that it didn't win
    • "including 3 movies" - replace '3' with 'three'
    • Was the cover system really 'unique'? I'm pretty sure that I played FPS well before 2006 which included functions to crouch behind objects. The reference provided doesn't say this was 'unique' to this game.
      • Fixed. Yeah, I couldn’t see it anywhere either, so I’ve changed the sentence to "Most of the game's missions take place in third-person shooting format, combined with the use of a cover system". Does that work for you?
    • Most of the para which begins with "There are several missions in which the player controls a motor vehicle." is unreferenced
    • The first sentence of the 'Minigames' section should introduce the topic. "With the exception of the interrogation minigame, they are all computer puzzles" doesn't really introduce the fact that the game includes minigames
    • Given that the use of torture in the interrogation scenes in 24 was controversial, was torture included in the game's interrogation minigames?
    • "24: The Game takes place 6 months after Day 2 and two and a half years before Day 3." - I suspect that this makes sense to the people who've seen the TV show, but it flies over my head. Am I right in thinking that Day 2 and 3 are the second and third seasons of the show?
    • "Section one revolves around an attack on Jim Prescott" - likewise, who this is needs to be explained
    • "News that many of the sound effects and noises from the TV series would be used in the game was also mentioned in the announcement." - the use of 'news' in the context of a press release is a bit odd. I'd suggest turning this around to something like "The announcement also stated that sound effects and noises from the TV series would be used in the game"
    • "Speculation about 24: The Game was initially positive following the announcement that it would be developed by Sony Computer Entertainment's Cambridge Studio." - "speculation ... was initially positive" isn't good grammar, and why was the use of the Cambridge studio seen as being a positive?
    • "the fall of 2005" - which is spring here in the Southern hemisphere... I'd suggest changing this to 'the northern fall of 2005' or similar
    • Was the game released outside North America and Europe? I'm pretty sure that I saw it here in Australia.
      • It was released in Australia as well. I've added that in with this edit.
    • Given that almost all computer games based on TV shows and movies have been disappointing, were expectations really 'high'? This also isn't referenced.
    • "was also liked" - this is a bit awkward
    • "although fans of the series may find that the viewpoints, motives and reasoning of the villains isn't covered well." - ditto
    • "Voice acting was generally popular" - this is cited to a single review, which obviously doesn't support this claim about the overall response to the game
    • "well liked" - also awkward
    • "The soundtrack and musical score were singled out for particular praise" is cited to one website that appears to do nothing but review soundtracks, and so doesn't support the statement that this was "singled out for particular praise"
    • "The music was recorded using an orchestra, while the music in the TV series was mostly synthesized." - shouldn't be in the 'reception' section
    • "The use of licensed assets in these ways proved to be the game's main popular point, with almost all gameplay sections heavily criticized." - this is unreferenced, and 'licensed assets' is jargon.
    • "Sniper variants of this fared better." - what the 'this' is here is a bit unclear
    • "The vehicle sections were also disappointing, with physics and vehicle handling being rated poorly." - this is cited to only a single review, so doesn't support the implication that these elements of the game were generally poorly rated
    • 'artificial intelligence' is linked the second time it appears in the article, and is abbreviated as AI the first time
    • "The use of artificial intelligence in these sections were heavily criticized" - again, this is referenced to only a single review, so doesn't really support the statement that this was "heavily criticized".
    • " Interrogation scenes were, in contrast, well liked, with reviewers finding the dialogue during these scenes entertaining" - this statement about 'reviewers' is also referenced to a single review.
    • Is any information available about the game's sales and if it made a profit?
      • Had a look in LexisNexis, there's probably stuff there but I couldn't find anything. Couldn't see anything in Google archives either. I think the inclusion of "24" in the search makes things tougher...not sure what to do there. Steven Zhang Join the DR army! 01:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • This might not be publicly available. I presume that you've checked the company which published this game's annual report? (which should be somewhere in the corporate section of its website). Nick-D (talk) 09:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Have any sequels been proposed or made? Nick-D (talk) 23:01, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:42, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In general, it seems like this article is a bit short on sources. Of the 21 currently included, 3 are from the game's publisher, and four more are a game walk-through. Any chance more sources are available? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:42, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 19:41, 20 January 2012 [41].

Samuel Colt

Nominator(s): Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 00:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... "God made men, Samuel Colt made them equal". I found this article in poor shape, it was loaded with misconceptions, terrible prose and poor sourcing. I put in a lot of work on it, improving the prose and adding references and citations. I took a break from it to work on a few supporting pieces including his company and a biography of his brother John C. Colt that I will bring to FAC if this is successful. Recently took it to GA status and feel it is ready for FAC. Most people know Colt as the inventor of the revolver, but he was much more than that. He was America's first Industrialist Tycoon; he built a company that has continually stayed in business for almost 2 centuries; in his lifetime he created or perfected the assembly line method of production, introduced the advertising phrase "new and improved", used art and corporate gifts as marketing tools, sought better working conditions for his employees and bullied, bribed, bartered, and worked his way to the top of his field. His life's motto was"If I can’t be first, I won’t be second in anything. The little reputation I have gained for originality of thought and conception has grown out of the impression made by that simple adage and however inferior in wealth I may be to many who surround me I would not exchange for their treasure the satisfaction I have in knowing I have done what never before has been accomplished by man. " Thank you.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 00:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Media review Interesting fella

—Andrewstalk 04:23, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I fixed the missing infoon the first 2, I will look into requesting a touch up on Walker's picture, I might have a source for that artist on the factory, but I cannot remember where I saw it, should not take more than a day or 2. I attributed the 2 links, let me know if you have any other comcerns and thanks again for the media review. PS, if you think he's got an interesting story, check out the brother's article at John C. Colt.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 06:21, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, the armory picture from 1857 is an illustration from a now defunct magazine that never credited its illustrators. I submitted Walker's pirtrait to the photo lab, thanks I never knew we had such a resource.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 15:36, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, that portrait of Walker looks fantastic now! Good job, happy to support. —Andrewstalk 22:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support on criterion 3 only —Andrewstalk 22:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. Oppose. Hi Mike, welcome back to FAC. The problem is that there are so many little problems that I won't be able to fix them all in the two hours I generally devote to copyediting at FAC. Running through quickly, "william Marcy and President James K Polk" (uppercase, missing period), "US" vs. "U.S." (be consistent ... "US" is a little better at FAC these days), "Hartford Connecticut" (lots of these ... you need a comma after the city, and if there's no other punctuation after the state, another comma after the state ... WT:Checklist has links to style guides on this point), "His second attempt making mines for naval use" (it wasn't his second attempt making mines ... it was his second attempt, making mines. You need commas before non-restrictive clauses), "Colt's revolvers saw use" (oops, I see someone has fixed this already ... in general, avoid "saw" in this sense, except when shifting the reader's focus to a particular time period ... "the 1940s saw the introduction of ..." is sometimes okay), "Colt's innovative contributions to the weapons industry have been described by arms historian James E. Serven as 'events ...' " (a contribution isn't usually an event), "double barreled rifle" (hyphen), "districtscuttled" (oops). There's no requirement, of course, that you have to be good at catching stuff like this yourself ... many great writers aren't ... as long as you can find someone to do it. You can try listing it at WP:FACG, although the Guild will probably take a few weeks to get to it. - Dank (push to talk) 20:00, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your honest comments, I fixed almost all of these. Sometimes I think we need a spellchecker type of tool built in here or some type of a gui to make it easier to add wikilinks after the writing. I copied and pasted the article into MS Word and caught what you pointed out and a few others.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:32, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Very nice work by you and by User:MathewTownsend on this one. I should be able to get at least a significant chunk of it done, now, I'll get started. - Dank (push to talk) 14:38, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk) 14:40, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note that in some cases, my changes might shift the meaning, if I think I'm probably right and if the tighter language seems necessary to meet FAC standards ... so please explain or revert if I get the meaning wrong. For instance, I shortened "Colt is credited as being the first industrialist to successfully make use of the assembly line method of production." to "The first industrialist to make successful use of the assembly line, Colt ...". (Too many sentences were starting with "Colt", for one thing.) - Dank (push to talk) 15:04, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I appreciate the changes. Often I get put off by my own writing for that reason, I like seeing alternatives.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did a lot of fiddling with the lead, feel free to tweak or ask why I did what I did; FAC standards for the lead are a little tough. Skimming, it looks like I can leave most of the rest of the article intact. - Dank (push to talk) 15:34, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While on this voyage, Colt made a wooden model of a pepperbox revolver.": This will be confusing for some readers, since you're saying he came up with the idea of a revolver on this trip, but also made a model of a revolver that already existed. (Understood that you're talking about a different kind of revolver, but many readers won't know this.) Not sure how to resolve this. - Dank (push to talk) 16:06, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I hope I clarified while keeping it simple, outside of wiki I write for a mainstream news source and for the firearms and cutlery magazines. I find if I go too simple for the gun magazines, the readers don't like it; whereas if I don't give enough detail in my msm piece about guns, how they work, klaws, etc..those readers don't know what I am talking about! Colt's pepperbox had a unique mainspring which I explained in the article, then later went on to say after the "Dr Coult lectures" that he abandoned the multiple barrel idea of the pepperbox.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Corvo took him to India and back, I believe that is why he added the "of Calcutta" to his Nitrous Oxide tour.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He was a 19-year-old kid lecturing about nitrous and was so convincing in his "lectures" that they thought he was a real doctor who had studied medicine, so when the cholera broke out they turned to him for advice.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:35, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Be consistent in how multi-author sources are notated
  • FN 26: formatting
  • Foster-Harris or Forster-Harris? Schecter or Schechter? Check spelling for consistency
  • Some of your Bibliography entries are missing dates
  • Use a consistent date format
  • Look for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods
  • FN 54-55: punctuation
  • FN 55: date
  • FN 57: publisher, page?
  • Be consistent in whether you provide publisher locations for books, and if so what information is included
  • No citations to Bern, Edmund, Grant, Kelner
  • See also should go before references
  • Can you justify the use of Kelner wrt WP:SCHOLARSHIP
  • Don't need page number in Rohan bibliography entry. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:35, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I believe I have addressed them all.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 01:34, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good job so far. There are still a few inconsistencies. For example, compare FNs 21 and 22 - notice the punctuation change? Where in Ohio was Carey published? Where was Klepper published? Doubled period in FN 44, hyphen in FN 10, etc. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:16, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well slap me twice and call me a bastard! Looks like that was the change in templates from cite book to citation; I never knew that! I fixed the locations, one was a spelling error in the parameter for the template the other an oversight. I think I fixed the hyphen issue, but I'll check for more. I used to have a character map with the dash but it looks like it's gone now.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 05:08, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
More: why include database name in FN 11 but not 13? Why is there a location in FN 53 but not 47? Why are Roe and Hounshell using the {{citation}} template when other sources use {{cite book}}? Why does Hounshell include "USA" when other US-based sources do not? Why does Lehto's middle initial warrant a period when his coauthor's does not? Where was Lendler published? Why does Dickens include publisher and location when other journal articles do not? Why is Roe's reprint state abbreviated when other states are not? Why are Serven's initials spaced when others are unspaced? Where was Tucker published? Why are Further reading states abbreviated when citation states are not? How many sourcing questions could a woodchuck ask if it wasn't so busy chucking wood? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll fix these, short answer: patent refs (11 and 13)were put in by some schizo 3 years and 4 months ago, well I don't know if he is a schizo, but he used 2 different ways of putting the same type of ref in. Hounshell is an old ref that is in a template somewhere and at least 3 articles link to that...maybe I'll ditch it, I guess if we're quibbling over the spacings of letters and periods after initials in middle names that I'm not half the retard or a "hack writer", like the rumors suggest. I've never seen a woodchuck actually chuck wood, nor have I seen a rock chucker actually chuck rocks. :P --Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 06:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed, stupid human tricks.

Comments

  • Maybe it's just my ignorance, but "Like most Democrats of his time, he did not see slavery as a moral issue" seems to need a citation.
  • "Colt was the first American manufacturer to use art as a marketing tool." Seems overly broad to me and is certainly in need of a citation, especially considering that you're using 'art' in the sense of decoration on goods. Seems to me that this could include practices back to when people started bartering.
  • It was more than that, certainly in the presentation type guns, but art in this sense means hiring George Catlin to specifically produce artworks that prominently featured his guns in the hands of big game hunters and Western heroes. Much like companies paying film makers for product placement today.
  • "The first industrialist to make successful use of the assembly line" seems in need of citation.
  • It is cited in the article, if you want me to cite items in the lede section, I'll do it, but most FAC reviewers tell me not to do that, unless something changed since my last FAC.

Comments from Noleander

  • Wording: "Having some money saved and keeping ...". Starting with "having ..." seems slangy to me.
  • Wording: "Colt's manufacturing methods, directed at beating his competition,....". I would think that every aspect of his business is aimed at besting the competition; so that "directed at .." seems to be superflous. Maybe better to say something like "Striving to gain a competitive edge, Colt adopted/invented new manufacturing techniques ..."
  • Wording: " Colt set out to establish a factory in Europe and chose London." Probably better to explicitly finish with "... as the location of .."
  • Wording: "The factory's machines mass-produced its parts that were completely ..." Eliminating the "its" may read better.
  • Wording: "Samuel Colt died from gout" . My ears would prefer "of gout" but that may be just me.
  • Confusing: "Colt historian William Edwards wrote that Samuel Colt had married Caroline Henshaw ...". I cannot make heads or tails of what is being said. The child was Samuels, and there was a cover-up marriage to John? The first sentence of this paragr should plainly state the controversy ... subsequent sentences should give background/detail.
  • Cite needed: "Colt was the first American manufacturer to use art as a marketing tool when he hired Catlin to prominently display Colt firearms in his paintings. ". That sounds hard to believe, so you should include the name of the source that makes that assertion in the prose (per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV ). E.g. "Historian Joe Smith contends that Colt was the first ...".
  • Background needed: "Apart from gifts and bribes, Colt employed an effective marketing ..." The issue of bribes appears very abruptly here. They need to be identified and explained before this sentence. There is a mention of bribes far above re patent extensions; but that is not applicable to this marketing context.
  • Reword: "Colt felt that bad press was just as important as long as his name and his revolvers received mention. " "as long as" is slangy here. Perhaps better would be "Colt did not object to poor press coverage, provided that his revolvers were mentioned."
  • Legacy section: contains sentence: "Before his death, each barrel was stamped: "Address Col. Samuel Colt, New York, US America", or a variation using a London address. Colt did this as New York and London were major cosmopolitan cities and he retained an office in New York at 155 Broadway where he based his salesmen.". Two issues (1) this seems to be unrelated to Legacy: move into an earlier section; and (2) The phrase "Before his death,.." implies the barrels were changed after his death. To what?
  • Legacy again: Much of the material in the Legacy section is related to things during his life. Such as "Apart from gifts and bribes, Colt employed an effective marketing program which comprised sales promotion, publicity, product sampling, and public relations ..." and "When he opened the London armory he posted a 14 foot sign ...". Move all that material to an earlier section.

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 19:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 19:41, 20 January 2012 [42].

William S. Clark

Nominator(s): Historical Perspective (talk) 00:07, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this article meets the criteria. Since reaching GA status, the article has had a subsequent peer review and, as a result, further improvements have been made and the article further expanded. I believe it is just about ready for FA. Given William S. Clark's international importance, his significance to both the history of Massachusetts and Japan, I believe his article would make a unique addition to FA biographical articles. Historical Perspective (talk) 00:07, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ranges should use endashes
  • Be consistent in how "quoted in" citations are punctuated, how initials are punctuated, etc - lots of punctuation inconsistencies
  • No citations to Konishi
  • FNs 47 is missing full bibliographic info
  • Be consistent in whether you provide publisher location, and if so what info
  • Konishi needs date and pages. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I believe I've rectified the above.
  • Inserted ndashes. If you see any I missed, please let me know.
  • Fixed punctuation inconsistencies in citations.
  • Added back the Konishi citation...it somehow got dropped along the way.
  • Added a citation template for FN 47.
  • Added publisher info for a couple citations in which it was missing. Due to use of various citation templates (journal, web, news, book, etc.) the publisher info does appear in different formats and may appear inconsistent, but I prefer to stick with the templates.
  • Fixed Konishi reference.
Thanks again for the comments. If you see anything further, please let me know. Historical Perspective (talk) 14:04, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the fixes, but there are still some issues here - see for example FNs 60 and 65. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:40, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Got those. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 11:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Interesting article, but I spotted a fair amount of prose issues throughout. Here are some examples; no guarantee that this is a comprehensive list.

  • Education and early career: "The program was not successful, however, and it became clear to Clark that a new type of institution would be necessary if agricultural education were to be taught effectively." "were" → "was"? Not sure whether education can be considered a plural word; then again, I don't edit such articles so I'm not sure.
  • Family: Why is the link to William Richards presented under both William and Clarissa Richards' names?
  • Civil War: Period needed after "The gun was the first artillery piece captured by the Union Army during that engagement".
  • Massachusetts Agricultural College: "The proceeds from the sale of the land was to support the establishment...". "was" → "were". Watch for singular/plural conflicts like this one.
  • "Clark resigned his commission in the army one month after the MAC voted into existence by the Massachusetts Legislature." Missing "was" before "voted".
  • "Clark became president of the college in 1867 and immediately appointed a faculty, completed a construction plan, and in the fall of 1867 MAC admitted its first class of 49 students." The last part of this sentence ("and in the fall of 1867...") doesn't flow that well with the rest when you read it in its entirety. You could try some minor work that involves a semi-colon, or even split it off into a small sentence.
  • What is intended to cite Clark's resignation year? If it's the same cite used for the quote in the same sentence, I see no harm in moving the reference to the end of that sentence.
  • "and also a member of other scientific societies." The word "also" is basically redundant and doesn't serve much purpose with "and" already there.
  • Japan: Redundancy from one sentence to another in "who enrolled after Clark's departure. In 1877, shortly after Clark's departure".
  • Later career: "Clark became interested in a scientific floating college proposed by James O. Woodruff. Woodruff's...". Again, some repetition between sentences that is best avoided.
  • The part that goes "made for an unfortunate combination that would lead to disaster" is laden with POV-ish statements. Can it be toned down a little?
  • Shouldn't "law suits" be one word?
  • "had mismanaged affairs at the company's New York office resulting in firm's collapse." Close would be better as "resulting in the firm's collapse." Giants2008 (Talk) 18:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much for these comments. I am a little buried right now with the post-holiday deluge at work, but I will get to these changes as soon as I can. Thanks again. Historical Perspective (talk) 14:17, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Sorry, but it's been over a week since this comment and no work has been done on the article. At a time when FAC is pushing 50 noms, we can't afford to leave stale nominations here, particularly when prose issues exist in them. Giants2008 (Talk) 03:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I had actually blocked out this morning to get to this. Working on it now. My comments will be up within the hour. Historical Perspective (talk) 13:10, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, these corrections have all been made. With the exception of the first. "Were" is correct as it is in the subjunctive tense. I am sorry for the delay in responding...a couple work crises have prevented me from even thinking about Wikipedia recently. But things have smoothed out and I should be able to devote appropriate attention to this nomination now. I hope you might therefore reconsider your oppose. Best, Historical Perspective (talk) 13:53, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose reconsidered above. I still would like to see one or two others take a look at the writing since one editor can't catch every little nit-picky point. If others indicate that the prose is okay, I intend to support this. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - mostly relating to the time Clark spent in Japan.

  • Can we have a photo of the statue of Clark on the Hitsujigaoka observation hill? This is an iconic image in Japan not only for Clark, but for the whole of Sapporo. Have a look at this Google Image search for "クラーク" (Clark) for a taste of what I mean. There are already a few images on Commons: [43][44].
  • The "oyatoi" in "oyatoi gaikokujin" isn't a proper noun (it just means "hired"), so it should be lower-case.
  • Can we have a bracketed figure in meters after "at an elevation of 3,200 feet"?
  • The origin of "Satemo" as a Japanese expression could do with a little clarification. In the source it only says that Clark thought it translated to something like "all right", not that this was actually a rough translation. In one of its senses it could have this meaning, as in "all right, let's start" - a general intention to do something. However, it also seems to have a couple of different meanings, and the "mo" isn't often appended in speech today. It might be best just to say that Clark thought that was the translation, rather than what it actually is.
  • About "the slogan is included in most Japanese schoolbooks with a biography of Clark" - this is ambiguous at the moment. Does this mean that if a Japanese textbook has a biography of Clark, then most of them include this slogan? It could read that most textbooks for every subject in every school year throughout the Japanese school system have both a biography of Clark and include this phrase. The latter doesn't seem likely to me, but I do think the phrase is famous enough that it could be included in multiple textbooks for multiple subjects for multiple school years. I'm not aware of the actual extent, though, so this could do with clarification.
  • When mentioning the Sapporo Independent Christian Church, could you also mention that it was a forerunner to the non-church movement? I found a source that mentions this too.

Also, if you need any help with Japanese-language sources or with local research, I may be able to assist. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 17:37, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for the comments. I particularly appreciate your perspective relating to Japan and the Japanese language. Responses to your comments follow:
  • The statue of Clark in Hokkaido is indeed an iconic one and it was once included in the article. However, when the article was peer reviewed, the image was deemed to have a copyright issue as it is a photo of relatively new artwork. So I removed it. You can see that peer review here. Perhaps it might be worth submitting the question to the Commons help desk and seeing what they think. I will pursue that.
  • Took care of oyatoi.
  • Added a meter conversion.
  • Reworded the "Satemo" sentence along the lines of your suggestion.
  • The sentence about textbooks was confusing, I agree. The ambiguity was derived, I think, from my paraphrasing Maki's statement. So, I added a quote and let Maki speak for himself as to what appears in Japanese textbooks. I also simplified the statement by saying that "many" textbooks carry this information about Clark, avoiding, I hope, the implication that he is covered in every book.
  • Kanzō is mentioned in the Japan section and I added a reference and wikilink to the non-church movement in that section. Also the citation you provided. Thank you for that.
Best, Historical Perspective (talk) 19:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Shame about the Clark statue - after reading the peer review I have to agree, though. Those Clark statue photos should probably also be removed from Commons, unless we can get permission from the copyright holder. I found out that the sculptor of the Hitsujigaoka statue was Tandō Saka (kanji: 坂 坦道, hiragana: さか たんどう） from this link, and then from his studio website I found out that he died in 1998. Judging from the Commons page linked to in the peer review, it looks like the statue will become public domain in 2048, but for now I assume the copyright is held by his relatives.
Also, thanks for the various fixes - I like the way you've rephrased things. I only have one more thing to add, relating to the Sapporo Independent Christian Church. My main reason for bringing up the non-church movement was because the mention of the Sapporo Independent Christian Church in the "legacy" section doesn't give much context or links to further reading. I've been looking around at some sources, though, and the church looks notable (if not all that famous), so I think we can just create an article on it and put the relevant context in there. I'll go ahead and create a stub - would you mind linking to it? — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 20:55, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, created the stub at Sapporo Independent Christian Church. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 22:35, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the wikilink to your new article. Thanks. I also got an answer back from the folks at Wikimedia Commons. Unfortunately, the pictures of the statue definitely cannot be used. Too bad. But the law is the law, I suppose. If interested, you can see the copyright discussion here. Historical Perspective (talk) 22:45, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Independently of this discussion, I created deletion request for various statues of him, and found this page because a person posted a link to this page from the deletion request. You might wish to comment there. For your information, since the date of death is now known, I have added some wiki code to the images on Japanese Wikipedia so that ja:Template:屋外美術 automatically is replaced by ja:Template:Copy to Wikimedia Commons in 2049. This will also strip ja:Template:写真の著作物 from the licence statements on Japanese Wikipedia in 2049. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:54, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. I will add comments here as I go through the article.

  • Any reason not to put the date of birth in the body of the article? Per WP:LEAD it should be in the body if it's in the lead, plus this way the source will be apparent.
  • "Upon his return to Amherst in 1852": this gives us two "in 1852"s in quick succession. Could we change the second occurrence to "He returned to Amherst that year ..."?
  • A couple more comments about the second and third paragraphs of the "Education and early career" sections. Can we get dates for when the Division of Science was formed, and when it became unsuccessful? And what does it mean to say that it was unsuccessful? Was it dissolved? Do we need "At Amherst College, he ..." when the context is clearly Amherst College? Does Browne give more information about Clarke's search for support for an agricultural college? As it stands that sentence is disconnected from the narrative in the previous paragraph; the dates aren't precise enough to even know which came first.
  • Looking around on Google Books for sources, I ran across The history of the town of Amherst, Massachusetts, Volume 1 by Edward Wilton Carpenter and Charles Frederick Morehouse -- I don't know if you've already looked at this and discarded it, but I thought I'd pass it along.
  • You mention a memorial to Clark in Amherst; any chance of a picture? I will probably be in Amherst myself some time this year so I can take a picture then, if no other option is available.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for the comments. I've addressed them as follows:
  • I've added his date of birth to the first section and supplied a citation.
  • I fixed the "1852" duplication as you suggested.
  • I've supplied dates for the Division of Science and explained that it was discontinued due to lack of enrollment. Supplied a citation for that as well. I edited the final sentences a bit to explain that his involvement in the agricultural education movement came after the dissolution of the Amherst Division of Science and that he found it necessary to work through organizations beyond Amherst to further this effort. I think this better ties the Amherst paragraph to the short paragraph about his involvement in agricultural boards.
    That's much better. However, I think you could now absorb that last paragraph into the previous one. How about "It became clear to Clark that a new type of institution would be necessary if agricultural education were to be taught effectively. He was a member of the Massachusetts Board of Agriculture from 1859 to 1861 and was the president of the Hampshire Board of Agriculture from 1860 to 1861, and later from 1871 to 1872, and he used his position in these organizations to seek support for an agricultural college in Massachusetts." The only thing this would omit is "sought involvement"; do the sources say that he specifically sought these positions in order to advocate? If so, more tweaking would be needed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a picture of the Memorial, but I think per copyright laws it cannot be used...unfortunately. The artist is still living.
    I keep forgetting that the US doesn't have freedom of panorama; it amazes me every time I'm reminded of it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Let me know if these changes look good and if I can address anything further. Thanks again! Historical Perspective (talk) 22:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I ran out of time today; I will come back to this tomorrow. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have combined the paragraphs as you suggested. Thank you, I think that reads much better now. The sources are clear that he used these organizations to advocate for an agricultural college. And while we might infer that he sought involvement specifically for that purpose, the sources do not really spell it out that way. So, I think it reads properly the way you've suggested it. Historical Perspective (talk) 21:11, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More comments. I've read through a couple more times, and although I have some nitpicks with the prose, my main concern is that the article seems quite short. The Maki biography (from what I can see of it on Google) seems fairly detailed, and I wonder if more could be brought in from that source. I looked through it to see if I could find examples of material that would be helpful. How about mentioning Maki's suggestion that the time in London in 1850, and particularly the visit to the Linnaean Society, were instrumental in cementing his interest in botany? Or mentioning that he also studied mineralogy and German when he was in Göttingen? Or the topic of his dissertation? Or his work for the fundraising committees and library fund? Perhaps not all these points are worth mentioning; I understand that you have to exercise some selectivity in choosing from the sources. Still, I am concerned about the comprehensiveness of the article. Do you feel that it could be usefully expanded, given the sources you have? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:40, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 19:41, 20 January 2012 [45].

1740 Batavia massacre

Nominator(s): Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe that it fully meets the criteria. This is my first featured article nomination, although I have participated as a reviewer in several others. This article is about an important event in Indonesian history, one that led to an all-out war throughout Java and caused tensions between Chinese Indonesians and native Indonesians that are still felt today; it represents a good balance of Dutch, English, and Indonesian sources. I would like to give heartfelt thanks to Drmies for his help with the Dutch sources and users Ohconfucius and Mark Arsten for their help copyediting. Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:05, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • The links on FNs 53 and 57 are not working correctly
  • be consistent in whether or not you provide publisher locations, and if so how these are formatted
  • Don't mix different types of citation templates - standardize on either citation or the cite family
  • Be consistent in whether initials are spaced or unspaced
  • All ranges should use endashes. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:05, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I like history articles, particularly those that deal with events of which I have absolutely no prior knowledge, so I will enjoy reading this. Meanwhile, here are some prose issues from the lead:

  • I suggest "activated" rather than "called into force", which is clumsy just after "deadly force".
  • Full stop rather than semicolon after "50 Dutch soldiers".
  • "In response the Dutch sent over 1,800 troops and supporting units, leading to the Chinese populace being stripped of all weapons and put under curfew." First, by "sent over" do you mean "dispatched", or "sent more than"? I suspect the former, but this should be clarified. Secondly, there is an unnecessary lapse into passive voice. Suggest: "In response the Dutch [dispatched] 1,800 troops and supporting units, who stripped the Chinese populace of their weapons and imposed a curfew."
  • "called another meeting of the Council" - no previous mention of an earlier meeting, and what is this "Council"?
  • What is "Kali Besar"?
  • "...until Valckenier called more forcefully for a cease of hostilities on 22 October". I think you probably mean "until, on 22 October, Valckenier called more forcefully for a cease of hostilities".
  • "The massacre is generally agreed to have killed 10,000 ethnic Chinese; only 600 to 3,000 survived." This is expressed a little vaguely for an encyclopedia article, and is also oddly worded; the massacre is the killing, not the means of it. I would suggest something more definitive, e.g. "Historians have reckoned that the massacre resulted in around 10,000 ethnic Chinese deaths. Estimates of the number who survived vary between 600 and about 3,000".
  • "...is credited for the etymology of several areas in Jakarta." This should be stated rather more plainly, and I'm not sure about "credited" in this context.

I'll read the rest over the next few days (in between the cigars and brandy), and will add further comments later. Brianboulton (talk) 14:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Further comment: Sorry, although I found the subject-matter interesting, the prose needs quite a lot of attention, especially in the "Aftermath" section which is very confused at times. This is disappointing, since the article has been through GA and peer review. Here is a selection of the problems I found, reading through:-

Background
  • You have linked "natives", but you need to say "native Indonesians" in the text, rather that making readers use a link to find out who these natives were.
  • As Indonesia was not independent at the time, I feel uncomfortable using "Indonesians" in that sentence; there was no "Indonesia", and the word wasn't even coined until the 19th century.
  • Agreed, changed.
  • "extort" is a transitive verb, so it can't be used as you have done. People can't be extorted; "extortion" is something done to them. I suggest you change "extorted" to "exploited"
Isn't it intransitive verbs that cannot be used in the passive voice? Either way, changed.
  • "British explorer and historian of Java Stamford Raffles notes that..." is a very clumsy formulation. Suggext: "Stamford Raffles, the British explorer and historian of Java, notes that in some..." etc
Done
  • "among other circles": "other" suggests a previous "circles", which isn't there. Suggest "among some circles"
Done
  • "These measures caused unrest"; it is not clear what measures are being referred to here
Done
  • "changes in worldwide supplies to the European market" - why is this factual statement in quotes?
Because it's verbatim from the source. I'll rephrase.
  • "some councillors" - again, you need to identify the council (there's a reference later in the paragraph to the "Council of the Indies"; perhaps give this name earlier.
Done
  • "This continued to be contested" → "This policy continued to be contested"
Done
  • "accepted increduously" → "received incredulously" (note spelling "incredulously")
Done
  • Again, unnecessary quotes around "extraordinary measures"
  • Done
Massacre
  • "Kali Besar": for clarity, I suggest you say "the Kali Besar stream"
  • Kali, literally translated, is stream. As we don't say "Sungai Mahakam River" I'll change it to Besar Stream like in the lede.
  • "Chinese settlements elsewhere in Jakarta" - should the present-day name "Jakarta" be used here?
  • Changed
  • "Tanah Abang survivor Captain Jan van Oosten" Reformulate: "Captain Jan van Oosten, a survivor from Tanah Abang"
  • Do we need "local time (UTC+7)"? UTC wasn't invented then.
Just local time. I had included UTC to show which time zone it would be
  • "...only dying on 12 October" I think this should be "dying out".
  • Done
Follow-up and further violence
  • "two ducat" → "two ducats"
  • done
  • "bandits" doesn't need quotes
  • I had put quotes as it is possibly POV. I'll remove them.
Done
  • "Native Indonesians" → "native Indonesians"
Changed to natives (per above)
  • Terms such as "Bugis" need explaining; don't make your readers link to another article to get a definition.
Added "ethnic"
  • "On 8 November, 2,000–3,000 native troops were requested from the Sultanate of Cirebon." Requested by whom, and for what purpose, seeing that a cease-fire was in force?
  • Added.
  • Addressed.
Aftermath
  • More unjustified quotes ("almost without interruption") Quotes should be use for striking or memorable wording, not commonplace or everyday phrases
  • Had quoted as it was verbatim. Removed
  • Generally, you quote verbatim only memorable phrases, or longer extracts where use of the original wording is thought justifiable to emphasise a point. Otherwise, simple paraphrases of commomplace expressions is preferable. Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gotcha.
  • "Early 1740 Valckenier asked permission to be dismissed." It's "Early in 1740; but what does "asked permission to be dismissed" mean? I could understand "asked to be dismissed", though probably "asked to be replaced" is nearer the mark. But "asked permission to be dismissed" is simply nonsense; you ask permission to do something yourself, not to have something done to you.
  • This was added a little after the nomination, so I'll touch that up.
  • The meaning of "vote of no confidence" is obvious, so no link necessary.
  • Done
  • I am losing the thread here: "In January 1741 Van Imhoff was sent to the Netherlands to face charges of insubordination. In October 1742, after these charges were dismissed by the Lords XVII (preceded by Lieve Geelvinck), Van Imhoff was sent back to Batavia as the new governor-general of the East Indies and arrived in May 1743." Can you render that in plain English?
  • Better?
  • "It seems Valckenier had left the Indies..." "It seems..." is not particularly encyclopedic. How does the source make this conjecture?
Fixed
  • "Seven months after Valckenier had left, he was locked up in the prison of Fort Batavia and three months later the trial began." I'm confused again. He was locked up in Fort Batavia seven months after leaving the place? And then "three months later the trial began". Presumably Valckenier's trial, though you don't say so. What were the charges? Who was conducting the trial?
  • Looking into it (has been rephrased).
  • The encyclopedia of biographies has it for his involvement in the massacre and for "selling out the office" ("geweest ambtsverkoop").

Note: These paragraphs are still very confusing. The reader will want to know:-

    • Who appointed Van Imhoff, and why was he appointed when he was evidently already on his way beck to the Netherlands to face charges of insubordiation?
    • Why did Valckenier go to Capetown? When did he arrive there? When was he returned to Batavia?
    • "12,333" is a very large number; please give some instances of what these items consisted of - were they all documents?
    • What was the date and cause of Valckenier's death? Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done
      • Done
      • Nothing about what it consisted of in the source. Logically it should be documents, but evidence could just as well be a goodly number of witnesses.
      • The source doesn't give a cause, just that it was in his cell on 20 June 1751. Should we include the date, or just the year?
  • "he was condemned to the sword". This may be what the source says, but you should render it in plain English: "He was condemned to death"
  • Fixed
  • "Nine months later the trial was reopened when Valckenier had produced 12,233 articles to defend himself." Extraordinary; what do you mean by "articles"?
  • Fixed

Considerable further work needed to achieve featured status. Brianboulton (talk) 23:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, you've done good work, and most of my concerns have been addressed. My final prose comment: "a 12,233 article-long diatribe" is clumsy, and the word "diatribe" is pejorative. Why not just say "a lengthy statement" and avoid difficulties? I am leaning towards supporting this promotion; I don't have time to do the final polishing, but it sees as though Dank is prepared to to this. If he gives an all clear, and an image review (currently lacking) produces no further issues, I will be ready to give full support. Brianboulton (talk) 12:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
observations by Gnangarra
  • Background section the term running amok wasnt used until the 1770's after observations by Cook, also its meaning at the time doesnt jel with its usage
  • Background section At the same time native occupants of Batavia are these Javanese people or some other group
  • aftermarth alternatively, the Lords XVII instructed that he be replaced by van Imhoff as punishment for sending too much sugar and too little coffee in 1939. wow sanctioned for sending too little coffee 200 years after the event :)
  • effects section historian of Java Stamford Raffles writes that Dutch historical records are "far from complete or satisfactory" Raffes is deceased should it not be he actions are past tense ie wrote rather than writes.

Outside of those points its an interesting read, well done Gnangarra 14:40, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • As amok is from the Malay term amuk, it may be justifiable here even if it predates English usage. Otherwise, would you object to "rioted", "fought against the crew", or other such wordings?
  • I have some ethnic groups listed further down, rather than put a comprehensive list (which is not all supported by sources). I'll rejig it.
  • Total typo. Mind you, he was released from his death sentence after he was dead so...
  • Fixed. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:21, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I have no further concerns please consider this a support for its promotion to FA Gnangarra 13:44, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I'd like to see a little more support before I copyedit. - Dank (push to talk) 04:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Double quotes. I'm used to putting definitions in single quotes for my linguistics classes.
    • Understood; single quotes are common outside the US, but double quotes have consensus at FAC. - Dank (push to talk)
  • "at a meeting of the council": which council?
  • Fixed
    • Not fixed, because I don't know what the "Council of the Indies" is. - Dank (push to talk)
      • Further clarified
  • That's fine.
  • "rumours ... that they died when running amok on the ships": Readers rarely click on links of uncommon terms if they think they know what term means, and few readers will know that the term "amok" comes to us from Malaysia, or that "running amok" has a psychiatric meaning separate from the meaning in dictionaries. So, you've got some judgment calls here. Rumors are unimportant more often than they're important to encyclopedic content, so unless the rumors themselves had an impact, you could delete this bit. Or, you could explain that "running amok" means going on a "killing spree perpetrated by an individual out of rage or resentment over perceived mistreatment" (per the link, and that's my sense of the term ... actually, don't include all of that, condense it). Or, you could say "killing spree" and leave out "amok". Your call. - Dank (push to talk) 02:38, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Along with the economic boom caused by trade between the East Indies via Batavia and China, the number of ethnic Chinese in Batavia grew rapidly": I don't follow.
  • Added
  • "At least another 15,000 lived outside the city walls, with numbers reportedly as high as 80,000.": "Reportedly" raises but doesn't answer the question of why the spread is so large and why you doubt the larger figure.
  • Changed. Setiono says "more than 15,000", while Armstrong, Armstrong, and Miller give the (much) higher number. The number may be influenced by how far outside the wall they are counting, but it doesn't say in the sources "up to Tangerang" or "up to Bandung" etc.
    • "Between 15,000 and 80,000 lived outside the city walls.": Not fixed; that's not encyclopedic writing, any more than "Between one and eight typhoons hit Malaysia in 1740." The spread is too wide, and suggests either that the sources don't know what they're talking about, or that there's missing information. In this case, there's missing information that explains the spread; fill in the information. - Dank (push to talk)
      • As the sources are unclear as to why there should be such a horrid clash in numbers, I've worded it so that it is undeniably factual "Thousands more lived outside the city walls."
  • "The Dutch colonials required them to carry registration papers, and initially sent back to China those who did not carry such papers.": Did all of the ethnic Chinese immigrate from China? If not, then "back" is wrong. When is "initially"?
  • "With both natives and the Dutch increasingly suspicious and resentful": You're reporting on states of mind here; better is to say what they said and did that suggested those states of mind, and either skip "suspicious and resentful" or use it in a topic sentence or conclusion.
  • Turned into topic sentence
    • No, you didn't understand my objection, and and your new sentence doesn't have a verb. - Dank (push to talk)
      • Sorry, added verb. I've also tried adding a bit more to make it clearer.
  • "and their economic prowess": What was being interpreted as prowess? Do you mean their wealth, or maybe their work skills?
  • Wealth. Changed
  • "deported to Zeylan (modern day Sri Lanka), where they would provide manpower for cinnamon harvesting.": What does "would" mean here, the future-in-past tense, or "were to", or "would have provided"? If the government is sending them off to do farm work, is that forced labor?
  • Made clearer
    • Not entirely. - Dank (push to talk)
      • "Should ... were to be" changed to "would ... would". I'm not sure what else you find lacking... a suggested fix would be great.
  • "the Dutch were told by the local Chinese captain": What's a "local Chinese captain"? Local to what?
  • A person put in charge of the Chinese populace by the Dutch. Expanded on in-text.
    • Better.
  • "the Chinese were seen as occupying some of the most prominent neighbourhoods": Did they just fantasize that the Chinese lived in prominent neighborhoods? Would ""the Chinese occupied some of the most prominent neighbourhoods" not be right for some reason?
  • Well, there's the thousands of poor millers living outside the walls who would not have lived in prominent neighbourhoods. Most were poor and would not have had access to the "nice neighbourhoods". However, the locals and Dutch did not notice or possibly did not care. In another period, before 1998, the press reported extensively on the Chinese konglomerat (conglomerates, uber-wealthy) while ignoring the poor Chinese spread throughout the archipelago, such as at Singkawang; it's a common way to stir up antipathy against the Chinese.
    • Not fixed. - Dank (push to talk)
      • To address your question directly, in my opinion "the Chinese occupied some of the most prominent neighbourhoods" would imply that all Chinese were in these neighbourhoods, while it was actually a misconception. I'll change "seen" to "perceived".
  • Oppose for two reasons: the problems here can't be fixed by copyediting, and my past experience has been that when I'm not sure of the meaning of so many sentences, it has turned out that the nominator wasn't sure of the meaning, either. That may of course be unfair, you may know exactly what you're talking about, but I can't be sure. - Dank (push to talk) 04:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've worked on redressing your comments here. As for the sentences you aren't sure of the meaning on, a lot of it depends on historical context which perhaps 99.9% of our readers don't have. Having lived in Indonesia for 4+ years and done my bachelour's thesis on discrimination against Chinese Indonesians, I've been reading up on the issue for a while now. Regarding the Chinese captains, that is probably worth an article at some point. Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:23, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notice: I will be leaving for Australia for the RecentChanges Camp on the 18th local time (UTC+7); I'm not sure how much time I'll have for editing Wikipedia, but I will do my best to reply to any comments promptly. Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 19:41, 20 January 2012 [46].

Bulgaria

Nominator(s): - ☣Tourbillon A ? 09:17, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have been maintaining this article for a while now, and for a few months I've been working to make it meet the Featured Article criteria. It has been GA promoted, and recently received a very useful peer review. I made some of the photos and asked for permissions for others, so I hope readers will find it well-illustrated at the very least. This is my first FAC nomination, and I will be very glad to receive any feedback. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 09:17, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There appears to be a few dead links in the references (Example Reference 127). I will attempt to repair the links, or retrieve archived copies. Alpha_Quadrant (talk) 23:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I was able to repair all of the dead links, with the exception of references 101, 123, and 132. It appears that these urls do not have relevant archived copies either. Alpha_Quadrant (talk) 01:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed all three links. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 09:04, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - I disagree with the assertion by the above two reviewers that all the FA criteria are met. Here are some specific concerns:

  • WP:ENGVAR requires consistency in the variety of English used - for example, you have both "neighbour" and "neighbor"
Working on it. Done, converted to British English.
  • Citation formatting needs to be much more consistent - currently have mixed templated and untemplated citations, print sources missing publishers or page numbers, etc
Working on it. Thought some sources with less information on them wouldn't need templates, but I'll process them too. Done. Please be aware that one or two print sources do not have an ISBN. I have tried hard to find one, but some books seem to have been published without such a number. I've specifically checked ISBNs for all print sources used, and if it is missing someplace - it is because I have not been able to find one.
Still inconsistencies here. Compare FNs 134 and 133, 13 vs 15, etc. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Multiple WP:MOS issues - bracketed ellipses, italicized quotes, etc
Those are in source quotes. "[...]" signifies that a part of the original text is dropped out. Italicized quotes are in footnotes too (working to put them all in a template). Done.
Ellipses should only include brackets if there was also an ellipsis in the source - see WP:ELLIPSIS. Also, don't need ellipses at the beginning and end of quotes. Also note that these were examples only of issues - on a quick look, I also see unconverted metric measurements, and likely others. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't noticed that recommendation in MoS (and frankly, wasn't aware of this rule in English). Removed all brackets. Also added conversions for metric units where they were lacking (only in Geography, as far as I noticed).- ☣Tourbillon A ? 19:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Campaigns_of_Ivan_Assen_II.png: on what source(s) was this image based?
Source is Essential History of Bulgaria in Seven Pages. I've added it to the image description in Commons.
The architects of the Sofia University and National Assembly building have died more than 70 years ago. The wind turbines are (arguably) machines, not habitable structures, I don't know if that will be a problem.
Okay, but you also include a picture of Sofia. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is an image of several banknotes, would that be more appropriate ? - ☣Tourbillon A ? 19:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't duplicate cited sources in External links
Fixed.
  • Some uncited material - for example, "Rainfall varies between 500 and 800 millimeters (19.7 and 31.5 in) in the lowlands and between 1,000 and 2,500 millimeters (39.4 and 98.4 in) in the mountains"
Fixed, info was in LoC source but improperly cited.
  • Bibliography-only attribution tags claiming material from PD sources
Should I remove the tags or restructure the Citations/Sources section ?
Tags removed.
  • Spell out numbers and ordinals under 10
Fixed.
  • Article needs a thorough copy-edit for readability, clarity and grammatical issues - for example, "higher education consists of a 4-year bachelor degree and a 1-year Master's degree's degree"
Working on minor errors such as the one pointed out. Done, please notify me if there is anything I've missed. Does it really have readability and clarity issues ? Apart from the few mistakes I have not noticed, I seriously don't think there are major problems with the flow of this article...
Yes, really - it is mostly free of grammatical errors, but FA requires a higher prose standard than basic correctness. Another example would be "North of the Danube, where a significant number of Bulgarian nobility and common folk remained, the population was under the jurisdiction of various autonomous, predominately Wallachian-led Christian principalities, where the Bulgarian alphabet continued to be used[29] and many cities, like the Wallachian capital of Targovishte, kept their Bulgarian names." Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, alright, I'll list it for copyediting at the Guild of Copyeditors. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 19:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Humanitarian, scientific or sports profiles. I believe these exist in most educational establishments around the world, maybe a bit of rewording would be useful but one does not have to be a "specialist" in order to understand. Fixed.- ☣Tourbillon A ? 22:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, perhaps it just needs to be better explained, as I still don't understand what you're saying. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed it to simply "specialised in a certain discipline". - ☣Tourbillon A ? 19:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (briefly for now) from Carcharoth (talk) 01:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • There are a large number of sources and text that needs to be spot-checked. To help with that, can the nominator(s) say which text they personally worked on and which text is earlier material added by other editors? Another way of putting this is asking when the nominator(s) began work on the article and how much checking of the article content present at that point was done before the push for GA and FA status?
A vast portion of the text in this article has been re-written or newly added by me in the last year or so. That is, the original text which existed during the GA nomination remains, but some words were changed and new figures and statements were added. The content in general is not changed. I kept the sources used by previous contributors, but many of them were improperly cited and I had to search for new ones. Most of the currently used sources have been added or updated less than 3 months ago, as many of the links were dead.
Thank-you for giving some of the background here. That helps those reviewing the article. Carcharoth (talk) 05:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Care should be taken with US Library of Congress sources in terms of linking. The links often expire and this one (currently reference 64) is a query URL as indicated by the 'cgi-bin/query' bit. As that page says: "Do NOT bookmark these search results. Search results are stored in a TEMPORARY file for display purposes. The temporary file will be purged from our system in a few hours." You've either worked out a way around that, or the temporary files have yet to be purged. On the other hand, the LoC itself uses these search URLs as links from the content page here. At the least, I think you should cite that contents page as the 'real' source, and link to it, even if you provide the direct link as a courtesy. In the bibliography, you (or someone) does cite 'Bulgaria Library of Congress Country Study' as a pdf. This is the same thing, so some rationalisation of the citations is needed there. I count 25 separate references to the LoC Bulgaria country study, and the formatting and citation style is different in nearly every case.

As Nikkimaria points out, there is lots of work that needs doing on the citation formatting. You are unlikely to get further reviews here before that is addressed. Carcharoth (talk) 01:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The LoC links used do not expire. These are permanent links, and I have been using them on numerous articles for a very long time now. They do not disappear, and will not become dead links if that is the main concern here. As for the .PDF country study, it is a newer, 2006 edition with updated figures. The other LoC source is from 1992, but contains more comprehensive information on history and geography. I wouldn't push it for FAC with sources that would become impossible to check only after a few hours, and as I already mentioned, the article has received a peer review. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 06:05, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate that you think the links won't expire, and that the LoC use the links internally themselves, and that you have used them for a long time on other articles, but I do think that it would pay to be cautious here and provide two links: one to the contents page (which is clearly stable) and one to the individual sections (as you do at the moment). Thank-you for clarifying the use of the 2006 pdf, though it is still not clear which LoC sources are used where - there are other issues with citation formats as well. Currently "{{cite web|url=[[s:1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Bulgaria/History]]|title=History of Bulgaria|publisher=Encyclopaedia Britannica 1911|accessdate=9 December 2011}}" is not producing anything useful (this reference occurs twice). I'm sure it is possible to fix that, but in addition to doing that you could also name in your citation the author of that EB1911 article: James David Bourchier. And please just do a search in the article for "Library of Congress" and you will see what I mean when I say that it is not clear which citations are to which versions of the country study, and it will also be clear what I mean by the citation formatting being inconsistent. It is relatively easy to fix this, and if this is done I will likely then review the rest of the article, which I think is well-written, but I want to be able to check sources as I go and as currently formatted I can't do that rigorously. Carcharoth (talk) 05:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for those remarks, I am currently working on it. Since I'm not certain how to link to Wikisource material, would it be a problem if I use the "cite web" template and simply link the URL ? - ☣Tourbillon A ? 08:21, 23 December 2011 (UTC) everything is fixed. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 10:33, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've looked again (thanks for the work on the citations) and there is one stray LoC citation still: currently number 88 "Bulgaria Library of Congress Country Study, Judicial Branch, p.17". That should be formatted like the other ones. Five more points: (i) In the bibliography, you link both the 2006 'Profile' and the 1992 'Country Study', though you may have been trying to link the online contents of the 'Profile' - please check the changes I made here; (ii) You could rejig each reference to a chapter in the 1992 Country Study to link to the entry in the bibliography, like you do for the 2006 Profile, but that's up to you; (iii) Looking at the Country Study table of contents, I followed the link to the LoC Call Number, and that seemed to say it was published in 1993 with the research conducted in 1992 - could you clarify this? (iv) The 2006 'Profile' isn't a full update of the 'Country Study' if I'm reading the LoC pages right - the 2006 profile is linked from the 1992 'Country Study' table of contents (the 'Visit updated Profile (PDF)' bit) and is also mentioned here. Is there any way of knowing whether the Bulgaria 'Profile' was created in 2006 or just most recently updated then? Some of this could be clarified further (for example, making clearer the difference between a 'Profile' and a 'Study'). (v) Back at the 'Country Study' table of contents, there are four authors named: Glenn E. Curtis, Pamela Mitova, William Marsteller, and Karl Wheeler Soper - I would personally name authors where they are known, but not sure what the standard is at FAC for this. The distinction between the 'Country Study' (named authors, paper publication and online) and the 'Profile' (anonymous(?) updates by LoC staff, published online) is worth drawing, I think. Carcharoth (talk) 13:15, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(i) and (ii) have been fixed, I hope this rearrangement will make the sources easier to verify; (iii) and (v) were hopefully fixed - I wrote that it's a 1992 research, but a 1993 publication and all names have been mentioned; (iv) I would regard the PDF profile as a more concise and up-to-date version of the country study - as a matter of fact, several countries that are not among the listed in the 1992 edition of the country studies, such as Mali, have their new, own profiles. I think the difference is quite obvious when we have names added to the Country Study and only a publisher to the Country Profile. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 17:31, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note - I hope to have time to do a more in-depth review at some point over the next week. Because this is such a broad country-level article, that will take time. If any other reviewers would like to split the review up by section (the article has seven main section), that might help. Carcharoth (talk) 13:25, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Text copied verbatim from public domain sources needs checking - Above, Nikkimaria correctly pointed out that the bibliography contained "attribution tags claiming material from PD sources". You removed the tags here (they were a {{Loc}} and a {{1911}} tag). Such attribution tag removal should only be done if the original text, copied verbatim, has been rewritten. If verbatim text remains, the tags should also stay. You will need to see what other FAC reviewers think of this (I would suggest asking at WT:FAC). I've done one spot check of the material cited to page 17 of the 2006 pdf (the citation that I pointed out previously wasn't in the same format as the other citations - this was the one I was looking at so it was the most convenient one to spot-check). Comparing the source and the current version of the article, I found the following bits were text copied verbatim (or almost verbatim) from the (presumably public domain) Library of Congress (LoC) source, page 17 of which is currently cited three times (as footnote number 84):

  • (i) Source: "Bulgaria has universal suffrage for citizens 18 years of age and older. Elections are supervised by an independent Central Election Commission that includes members from all major political parties. Parties must register with the commission prior to participating in a national election."

    Article: "universal suffrage for citizens 18 years of age and older. Elections are supervised by an independent Central Election Commission that includes members from all major political parties. Parties must register with the commission prior to participating in a national election."

  • (ii) Source: "The Supreme Administrative Court and Supreme Court of Cassation, the highest courts of appeal, rule on the application of laws in lower courts. The Supreme Judicial Council manages the system and appoints judges."

    Article: "...the highest courts of appeal—the Supreme Administrative Court and Supreme Court of Cassation—rule on the application of laws in lower courts. The Supreme Judicial Council manages the system and appoints judges."

  • (iii) Source: "Regional governors are named by the national Council of Ministers, providing for a highly centralized state. Municipalities are run by mayors, who are elected to four-year terms, and by municipal councils, which are directly elected legislative bodies. Subnational jurisdictions are heavily dependent on the central government for funding"

    Article: "Regional governors are named by the national Council of Ministers, providing for a highly centralised state. Municipalities are run by mayors, who are elected to four-year terms, and by municipal councils, which are directly elected legislative bodies. Subnational jurisdictions are heavily dependent on the central government for funding."

The inclusion of text like this is why the {{Loc}} tag was there in the first place. I realise that it is difficult to rephrase some of this material, but it shouldn't be used verbatim like this. This is why my first question here was about the history of the article and how much the text had been checked against sources and rewritten if needed (I've not looked at any of the other LoC citations or the EB1911 citations to see if there is similar verbatim text). If you disagree on whether this level of checking is needed, please ask at WT:FAC for someone else to take a look at this. Carcharoth (talk) 23:09, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It has been there for some time now (like a couple of months), and the usage of text like this has been addressed at the peer review. All the information from non-PD sources has been rewritten so that there won't be any similarities between the article and the original source. Where a PD source is used, the text is mostly the same as in the source. I figured that the presence of tags was suggested as a problem, that is why I removed them - maybe I shouldn't have done it. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 07:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since it was Nikkimaria who originally raised the issue of the tags, I'm going to ask her if she has time to come back here and look at this. That is probably the simplest way forward here. If the EB1911 tag is going to stay, someone needs to read the entirety of the EB1911 article and compare it to this article. If no verbatim text remains, the tag is not needed. I would normally suggest trying to find in the history when the EB and Loc tags were first added, but that may be difficult here with an article that has a page history going back to 2001 (I went forward from the early versions and gave up towards the end of 2006). FWIW, early versions of this article were heavily based on "the CIA World Factbook 2000 and the 2003 U.S. Department of State website", so it is nothing new to have Wikipedia country articles based on heavy churn of PD text from US government agencies. I'm just not sure if that is the standard that applies at FAC. I don't think it should be the standard, but others may disagree, hence me saying you should try and get others to comment. Carcharoth (talk) 20:47, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agree on that, and that's why I raised the issue. Assuming it's been sufficiently rewritten (and that I haven't checked), it shouldn't be a problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To avoid prolongued checking of information, the tags were actually added during the peer review last month. Along with that, I reworded some of the EB1911-based sentences therefore it's not really verbatim text used from this source. The only problem in this area is the material from LoC, and especially the Geography and Politics sections. Large portions of the statements there are directly copied from the country studies. I'll try to change the structure so as not to complicate the issue any further, it's not good to have copied text anyway. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 10:16, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done, I did my best to rewrite the directly copied text. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 11:03, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • A quick look shows there's still some tidying up to do in the prose. I'll try to come back to this soon. Images could be rationalised to the right side in many cases, given that different window-widths produce unsatisfactory relationships with the text when the pics are on both sides. Is the "official" government website appropriate to cite at the bottom? It looks like the current PM's propaganda machine to me. Tony (talk) 08:38, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As I noted above, I'll list it for review at the Guild of Copyeditors. Image aligning is generally following MoS (left-right staggering), and I viewed the article from several different computers and resolutions precisely to check if problems occur on this issue. Placing all images on the right wouldn't really look good. And wow, I looked at the Council of Ministers' website just now. Didn't knew it has turned into a mouthpiece for a political party, I'll remove it. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 19:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can provide a few more sources on this figure, but I decided to leave only this one (it is the most reliable) to avoid stacking too many cites on a single statement. And as absurd as it may sound, it's pretty much true... - ☣Tourbillon A ? 19:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That seemed questionable to me too, do you mean 97% of the adult population? Mark Arsten (talk) 21:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just reviewed the source again, says that 97% of the population live in privately owned homes. I'll change it. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 08:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, that makes a lot more sense. Mark Arsten (talk) 22:46, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sorry to be a bore, but this has a little way to go before it's of FA standard. The easy stuff is to get it copy-edited and MOSified (a 4-year bachelor degree and a 1-year Master's degree" ... please see MOSNUM). I removed (at someone's urging) the gobbledy at the opening; it's something I've never understood about articles on topics rooted in languages with non-roman scripts. "Bulgaria i/bʌlˈɡɛəriə/ (Bulgarian: България, tr. Bŭlgariya, IPA: [bɤ̞ɫˈɡarijɐ]), officially the Republic of Bulgaria (Република България, tr. Republika Bŭlgariya, IPA: [rɛˈpublikɐ bɤ̞ɫˈɡarijɐ]), is a ...". The readers' attention is at a peak right at the opening, and we clutter it with a tome of stuff they can't understand. If readers want cyrillic equivalents and phonetic thingemies (also understood by hardly anyone), let them go to the Bulgarian WP ... the link is just at the left.

    I've removed a few overlinkings. More remain: why is telephone linked? Could we have "bn" or "billion" rather than 000000000?

    The pics were rather small, and it's much better to prefer top-of-section placement, and right side, given the huge variation in window widths used by our readers.

    The capping of "Empire" and "State" ... it's not even consistent within the article, and I'm pretty sure these are now down cased on WP (there have been a few high-profile RMs to achieve this).

    Are you sure about all of the stats, given the mistake about the 97%?

    The longest river located solely in Bulgarian territory, the Iskar, has a length of 368 kilometres (229 mi)." -> "The longest river entirely within Bulgaria, the Iskar, is 368 kilometres (229 mi) long." ... Lots of clean-ups like that are needed. At random: "the European union average" (isn't it U?).

    Could you translate titles into English? What is this: "Еврокомисията наля 388 млн. лв. по сметките на фонд "Земеделие"" (in Bulgarian). Dnes.bg.

    There is just the faint scent of POV towards a slightly more positive view of Bulgaria than might be justified; I particularly worry about the stats. And some of the sources are certainly authoritative (CIA, etc); but sorry to be snobbish, do I believe a "Bulgarian National Investment Agency" report? I'm not sure I'd believe some government reports from my own country ... the type where the minister's office sees it first.

    But this could well become FA, either after continued efforts by the nominators or in a second nom. Tony (talk) 10:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll look into all of those. I can not promise whether all of this will be completed by the time this nomination expires as I'm having an exam week, but I will do my best to address all the issues. I've checked all statistical sources, the home ownership rate is a single mistake - I've simply misread the source. I'll fix all MoS issues in the next two days, though I can't be certain about the process of copyediting. There is one thing that bothers me, and that is the alignment of the images - the current positioning creates a lot of chaos, at least on the computers I use. For example, the current position of the feast at "First Bulgarian Empire" creates a huge gap - that certainly doesn't look good. Anyway, thanks a lot for the feedback. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 14:49, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Although the article is obviously imperfect, I think it meets the FA criteria. However, there are some good points above, which should be addressed. Consider this a support when the sourcechecks come out clear. I wouldn't rely on the guild for FA prose, that isn't their mission, and many won't be able to do it to the degree often asked for here. I disagree with the above reviewer about the aligned images. WP:MOSIMAGES encourages image staggering, and prevents what is (on my screen) a weird shifting of text widths, and also prevents pictures being forced out of their section. As in every article, watch out for short paragraphs (I notice a one liner in the lead, and a couple of two liners scattered throughout). If your checking sources, note that information usually doesn't require more than one source, and if two sources support separate parts of a sentence they should be placed after the information they source not the whole sentence (or situations like the list of classical composers occurs where a sentence is followed by four sources). Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, per my comments above, and the fact that the opening is incomprehensible:

Bulgaria /bʌlˈɡɛəriə/ ⓘ (Bulgarian: България, IPA: [bɤ̞ɫˈɡarijɐ]), officially the Republic of Bulgaria (Република България, IPA: [rɛˈpublikɐ bɤ̞ɫˈɡarijɐ]), is a parliamentary republic ...".

Here it was, even worse, before I complained there:

Bulgaria /bʌlˈɡɛəriə/ ⓘ (Bulgarian: България, tr. Bŭlgariya, IPA: [bɤ̞ɫˈɡarijɐ]), officially the Republic of Bulgaria ([Република България, tr. Republika Bŭlgariya, IPA: [rɛˈpublikɐ bɤ̞ɫˈɡarijɐ]] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help)), is a parliamentary republic ..."

User:Future Tense, who has a conflict of interest (look at the language user boxes on his user page) seems to have taken exception to opening an article on en.WP with language and symbols that our English-speaking readers can understand. So we're back 80% of the way, after I'd footnoted the gobbledy and produced a nice clean opening. Here is what the article had for a few days, which I believe is what our readers would far prefer:

Bulgaria, officially the Republic of Bulgaria,[5] is a parliamentary republic in Southeast Europe. It borders Romania to the north, Serbia and Macedonia to the west, Greece and Turkey to the south, as well as the Black Sea to the east. ....

I do believe the needs to bolded, by the way. The fact that almost no reader knows how bɤ̞ɫˈɡarijɐ and ʌ|l|ˈ|g|ɛər|i|ə are pronounced (it's weird to have this shoved in readers' faces before they get to the second word of the article), and that English-speaking readers should not be expected to know Bulgarian script, is good reason that this gobbledygook should be footnoted or relocated elsewhere so that the opening sentence is not interrupted by two and half lines of this stuff after the first word. This is a problem in terms of Criterion 2(a), which requires "a concise lead section". This is the opposite of concise. The impossible opening is in addition to issues concerning prose, and a potentially skewed angle (I could look into this more). Tony (talk) 12:20, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think a reasonable compromise would be to give the Cyrillic and a single IPA transcription of the short form ("Bulgaria"), while leaving the official form untranscripted. All country articles have the original name of the country at the beginning. Not having the Cyrillic name of the country is simply unacceptable. The prose isn't flawless, but when I asked some GOCE users to do some work on the article a while back, the results were not what I'd expect (orthography, even poorer prose, etc.). I'm working on these issues, but as I said, I'm occupied IRL this week and my time here is limited. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 14:54, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No one has provided a shred of reason as to why a foreign script should appear in the article at all, let alone intrude massively after the very first word, creating a mile-long hike to get to the second word. What exactly is the purpose? And why can't it be footnoted? Second, why has someone reverted my fixing of the strange double image in the Geography section? Could we have some reasons? Third, the prose is simply not good enough; I'm not concerned with who has done what—I just worry about the product. Tony (talk) 15:19, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Because all country articles have the local name in the introduction, and that is generally the standard in country introductions in Wikipedia and beyond ? Take FA examples such as India, Chad, Belarus, Germany and Japan, not to mention virtually any other article around here. The double image puts a huge weight to the right when outside its current frame and makes the third one, of the eagle, to go out of the Geography section. I don't see why that would be a problem, given that other FA articles, such as Peru, use this formula. Fixing the prose will take more time, though if GOCE editions later do not satisfy the standards, then it will be a problem of those who review FACs, not mine. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 16:15, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Other articles have other faults, too. That is no justification for making the opening of this article impenetrable. And here, the problem is dire given the double-barrelled bolded items. You still haven't given a single good reason for including this gobbledy right at the opening, beyond the copy-cat argument. Copy their bad grammar and image placement, too? Tony (talk) 05:36, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ref query—what makes this a reliable source? ""Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja" (in Russian). Vostlit - Eastern Literature Resources. Retrieved 4 December 2011. "В то время пока Владимир был юношей и правил на престоле своего отца, вышеупомянутый Самуил собрал большое войско и прибыл в далматинские окраины, в землю короля Владимира."" And what does the Russian text here say, since it's in the reference list? Could I remind you that this article is for English-speakers? The google translation of the linked page leaves open the reliability of this source; it looks like a wiki, with lots of fly-by comments. I can see "University of Ottava 1986" at the bottom, but ... it's used as justification for a claim about an important part of early Bulgarian history. Tony (talk) 06:28, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't deny other articles have faults. But if the number of articles using the original name + transcription formula is abour 300 for countries and several hundred thousand for biographies and settlements, then I would think twice before asking a question such as "Why would a foreign script appear in the article at all". If you still need a valid argument, consider starting with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). This is Wikipedia in English, it's not a Wikipedia of the Anglosphere only, I hope you can make the difference.
Done on the source, replaced the previous Russian one with Encyclopaedia Britannica too. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 08:50, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that was just the first source I examined at random. The way this FAC is going, egregious errors in stats and highly unsatisfactory sources are pointed out as examples, you then "fix" them, one at a time, and we return to thinking everything's tickety-boo? This is why the article is not yet ready for promotion. Please withdraw it and thoroughly audit every aspect. The nomination was premature. Tony (talk) 15:35, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
On the peripheral matter I complained of, the appalling clutter of incomprehensible symbols and cyrillic lettering that wedges the first word of the article from the second, your response is odd. Could you tell me why the Bulgarian WP doesn't provide the roman-script, English-language Australia—perhaps even a transliteration of the English word, not to mention IPA symbols that hardly any reader would understand in any language—after the first word in its article on that country? Have a look here. Do you know why they don't do it? Because it's ugly and disruptive, just when the readers want to glide into an interesting article in the language they've chosen to read it in: Bulgarian. Tony (talk) 15:42, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
First thing is that the Bulgarian Wiki has no Manual of Style and distinct guidelines, and article formatting follows that of print encyclopaediae and academic works. Since I'm working on the Geography project there, I would mention that Australia is likely an exception; most quality country articles do mention the native name (Sweden, Germany, Japan, China and so on).
I've checked for other errors on stats, as most of the sources were added relatively recently, and I said the home ownership was an isolated case. I don't know whether my responses are odd, or your behaviour is - quite frankly it looks like trolling to me. I really do not understand what your problem is; if you will not review the article thoroughly to raise concrete issues, and not just pick "examples of egregious errors", then feel totally, completely, absolutely free not to review it. I considered withdrawing the nomination even earlier due to the apparently skewed and subjective criteria by which Featured Articles are promoted. I don't consider that getting an "oppose" vote for mixed English variations and brackets while another nomination gets a "support" with the same remarks mentioned as "minor issues", or generalisations on poor quality because of a handful of problematic fragments to be anywhere near fair. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 16:16, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 19:41, 20 January 2012 [47].

Maniac Mansion

Nominator(s): Guyinblack25 talk, JimmyBlackwing (talk), MuZemike 01:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article has been extensively worked on by several editors since February 2011, going from an article with several cleanup tags and no lead to a complete article that is nearly 5 times larger. It has already passed WP:GAN, gone through a good WP:GOCE copyedit, and went through stalled A-Class nomination.

About the subject itself, Maniac Mansion was the first adventure game published by Lucasfilm Games and is often regarded as one of the most important titles in the adventure gaming genre, whose game engine would be implemented in many games that followed. –MuZemike 01:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support - very complete and well-written article on a seminal title in computer gaming history. Well done. I hope you'll work on one of the King's Quest, Space Quest or Monkey Island game articles next! Lemurbaby (talk) 01:51, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lemurbaby- Jimmy and I are currently fixing up The Secret of Monkey Island. I don't know if we'll take it to FAC though. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Support - It's a definite FA - you can tell it just by simply reading Overview section. Great work, guys, keep up in the same vein! Electroguv (talk) 18:55, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read beyond the Overview section? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:19, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course I did! And, I also would like to expand on my previous statement: though I am quite new to WP:VG, I think that the article fits FA criteria as it is comprehensive and informative. It may certainly have a number of flaws, but generally, it is a polished, well-done piece of writing. Electroguv (talk) 10:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:53, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • check for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods
  • FN 3: page(s)?
  • Be consistent in whether you provide publisher info for magazines
  • FN 27: page(s)?
  • Be consistent in how Grumpy Gamer refs are formatted
  • Given that FN 79 is self-published, what are the author's qualifications?
  • What makes this a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:53, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the double periods that I found and standardized the use of "Grumpy Gamer". The author for ref 79 wrote for Cinefantastique, a horror, fantasy, and science fiction film magazine, which is the same subject as book. In fact, content from that book was reproduced from the magazine. We'll take a look at the other issues soon. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]
Nearly all of the print sources should have publisher, location, ISSN, and OCLC information. If they don't, that means I was unable to locate them, as some of them are fairly obscure foreign gaming publications that have very little information about them as-is. –MuZemike 22:08, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Further responses-
  • I did not see more formatting inconsistencies in my sweep. Please let me know if I missed any.
  • I added pages to ref 3.
  • I added publishers were I could. The remaining four without them listed are foreign language magazines that I am unable to find the information for.
  • The VG Project considers Kotaku a reliable source.
(Guyinblack25 talk 21:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]
I checked the foreign language Wikipedias and found the publisher names. (Guyinblack25 talk 22:01, 22 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Oppose. This is rather poorly written in places and needs a thorough copyedit. A few examples from the first few sections:

Lead
  • "A comedy horror parody of B movies ... they based the story on horror film and B movie clichés". Why do we need to be told twice?
  • "Regarded as a seminal adventure title, Maniac Mansion received critical acclaim across all ports". Rather odd phrasing, "across all ports".
  • "... and has received fan remakes with enhanced visuals". How can a game receive anything?
  • "A TV series was created in 1990, which Eugene Levy created and which starred comedian Joe Flaherty as the mad scientist". That's pretty ugly.
  • "The engine and its accompanying scripting language have been later re-used for many other games." They could hardly have been re-used sooner.
Overview
  • "... something in which the rest of his family has supported and encouraged."
Conception
  • "Gilbert had been recently hired at Lucasfilm Games by Noah Falstein on a three-month contract to program Koronis Rift, which Falstein was the lead developer." Obviously something missing there.
  • "They drew inspiration on the game's main ideas over what Winnick said was "a ridiculous teen horror movie" they have watched, which the teens were in a house and got slaughtered one by one, not once thinking about leaving the house." Lots wrong with that sentence, not least the tense ("have watched").
  • "The ranch's Main House inspired Winnick's design of the game's mansion, leading him to create the concept art for it." What is "it" referring to here?
  • "Gilbert and Winnick based the characters both on stereotypes and people they knew". What is "both" bringing to the party here?
  • "According to Winnick, the Edison family were based on various movie characters ...". Family is singular.
  • "To parody the horror genre, they inserted many clichés into the story, drawing inspiration for several in-game elements from horror films". As opposed to cowboy films? It wouldn't have been much of a parody if they hadn't.
  • "The designers included a man-eating plant similar to the antagonist of the 1986 film Little Shop of Horrors." Are you certain that "antagonist" is the correct word here?
  • "He was an adventure games fan and decided that the ideas he and Winnick had conceived would work well with the genre". Who was, Winnick or his cousin?
  • "... this extended the game's production time beyond that of Lucasfilm Games' previous titles, which almost resulted in Gilbert's termination." Lucasfilm felt to strongly that they were prepared to kill Gilbert?
  • "... the dialog would be provided by David Fox. Maniac Mansion would be one of the first games to feature alternate endings". Ugly.

Malleus Fatuorum 13:23, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just to make sure I understand the reason for your opposition, you believe that there are sentences with redundancy and incorrect verb tense? Not that the sentences are ugly. If that is the case, then we'll do a sweep of the article again, with those ideas in mind. The one point I disagree with is the use of "termination" as it is an appropriate (and common) term for what is being said there. However, I'm not married to the word and can change it to "dismissal" or another synonym if you feel strongly about it. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]
I believe it's poorly written, as I said, and needs to be properly copyedited. The GoCE tends just to look at grammar, punctuation and spelling, but FA demands much more than that. And in this case I think you should ask for your money back from the GoCE, because they haven't even done the basic stuff. Malleus Fatuorum 14:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Malleus- I copy edited the article and will request another set of eyes to do another copy edit. Please let me know if the edits are an improvement. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]
I'm not sure if Malleus is going to be able to get to it right away, as he has been blocked for a week (though currently unblocked briefly as part of his ArbCom case). –MuZemike 21:53, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit: for an image caption - "Maniac Mansion's mansion" to "the mansion in Maniac's Mansion". The former is quite a mouthful to say, and reads uncomfortably. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 19:55, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd even recommend "the setting of Maniac Mansion" to avoid the double "mansion" but I'm not sure how accurate that would be. — Joseph Fox 17:09, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since the 99% of the game takes place in the mansion, I think setting is accurate. I changed the caption. Let me know if there's anything else. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:00, 23 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Update from Malleus Fatuorum There are still problems with the prose, which I don't think has improved significantly since I first commented. A few more examples:

Lead
  • "The pair used people they knew and characters from movies, comics, and horror magazines to design the game's characters." No, they didn't use them to design the characters, they based their designs for the characters on them.
  • "This interface was born out of the designers' desire to improve on contemporary text parser-based graphical adventure games". Are you absolutely confident about "born out of"?
  • "To reduce the effort required for the game ...". Is that the effort to play the game or the effort to write it?
  • "... Gilbert implemented a game engine called SCUMM, which would be re-used for many other LucasArts titles." Why "would be" rather than "was"?
  • "The developers reduced the game's size to 64 KB to fit within the Commodore 64's size limitations." Why "limitations" in the plural? Memory size is one limitation.
  • "The developers based the mansion's design from the Main House at Skywalker Ranch". Should obviously be on the Main House.
  • "Regarded as a seminal adventure title, Maniac Mansion was critically acclaimed; reviewers lauded its graphics, cutscenes, animation, and humor. Its point-and-click interface has been regarded as revolutionary by reviewers and other developers ...". That "regarded ... regarded" looks a bit awkward. Not quite sure what you're implying with "has been regarded as revolutionary". Either it was considered revolutionary or it wasn't.
  • "... has been placed on several 'hall of fame' lists ...". You don't place things on a list, you place them in a list.
Overview
  • "Players can select among fifteen different commands ...". Should be select from, not select among.
Conception
  • "... and it was then in which both Gilbert and Winnick found that they shared similar tastes in humor, movies, and television programs".
  • "... the game ends if all the characters die". Doesn't it end when all the characters die?
TV adaptation and game sequel
  • "They also made the original game playable on an in-game computer, which Grossman attributed to a software bug." That simply doesn't make sense.

Malleus Fatuorum 01:27, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up questions:
  • I was confident about "born out of". Should it be "born from"?
  • I reworded the second "regarded", but kept the verb tense. As I understood it, present perfect tense was for things that occurred at unspecified time in the past. Does this situation (commentary that has occurred intermittently over a decade) not fit that criteria.
  • In the "Conception" section, I'm not sure what issue you're trying to tell us here, but I assume there is something wrong with "...was then in which both...". I'm not sure what exactly though. Is there a grammar rule that can point us in the right direction?
  • Also in "Conception", I believe we wrote "if" because the characters dying is a condition that must occur for the game to end. The game can be completed without any characters dying. Maybe it's the computer geeks in us, but I guess our assumption is that "when" implies that the characters will die. Is that not the case?
  • Fixed the "TV adaptation and game sequel" comment. Hopefully it makes more sense now. The original story started with a software bug that was the result of a file size limitation in the engine. The reason for the bug led Gilbert to reminisce about the original's file size. The reminiscing prompted the designers to include the original as an easter egg.
Please let me know and I will address the issues accordingly. (Guyinblack25 talk 00:01, 18 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
  • "The developers based the mansion's design from the Main House at ...". Should be "on", shouldn't it?
  • "text parser-based graphical adventure games"—if this is in AmEng, why not do the CMoS thing (an option in WP's MoS): "text parser–based graphical adventure games". It's reasonable as it is, I suppose, although I'd use two hyphens (or the single dash).
  • "To reduce the effort required for the game"—do you mean to program it or to play it?
  • "Its point-and-click interface has been regarded as revolutionary by reviewers and other developers, and it led competitors to adopt similar interfaces." The tenses are difficult. I'm ok with the "has been", and I guess you rejected the use of "is", if that would shift the emphasis too much to the present. But then why not "has led"?
  • "something that his family has supported and encouraged"—you could lose the "that" for easier reading, although it's grammatical at the moment.
  • "main protagonist Dave Miller's cheerleader girlfriend, Sandy Pantz"—bit of a mouthfull. "Sandy Pantz, the cheerleader girlfriend of the ..."?
  • "two-dimensional (2D) game" (hyphenated unit linked). I'd have thought everyone on earth knew simply "2D" since Avatar 3D and similar. No big deal.
  • 20 years but fifteen different commands?
  • "possesses" could be "has".
  • Bumpy: "The game may be completed with any character combination, but, because many puzzles can be solved only with specific skills, there are different ways to finish the game, depending on". Why not remove the comma after "but"?
  • "and what they do"—they means the characters or the player? (I guess the characters, but singular they is common and usually acceptable, so there's an ambiguity here for many readers.)
  • The Ron Gilbert pic: caption is like a skyscraper. Do we need the "upright" mode in this?
  • Caption: "The Commodore 64 system's constraints forced the designers to adapt." Adapt what? Caption shouldn't fall off the edge like this. Perhaps it's an intransitive "adapt" (adapt their programming approach?).

I haven't read any further. Looks promotable after close scrutiny of the prose. Tony (talk) 03:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just chiming in- I have made edits per Malleus and Tony's comments. But I'd like to ask for clarification on the outstanding issues. Unfortunately, free time has not been my friend and I may not have an opportunity to ask until after the weekend. I still intend to address the issue and ask for time to do so. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]
I made copy edits to address most of the points you brought up. Here are follow up questions.
  • I edited the "has led competitors" part. But I guess I'm not completely clear on when to use present perfect and when not to. I posted a similar question about verb tense to Malleus above and would appreciate your input as well.
  • I wrote out "two-dimensional", because I've gotten dinged on video game jargon in the past. Now I try to err on the side of caution. But if this particular phrase is nothing to worry about, the I'll gladly switch to the easier to write "2D".
Please let me know and I will address the issues accordingly. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:14, 19 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]


So, let me guess: Is it this anti-video game bias that is preventing this and any other video game FAC from being promoted to FA, or is it something against me personally? --MuZemike 08:09, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 00:22, 15 January 2012 [48].

Brunei

Nominator: Hallows AG 07:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is well written and on my opinion, passes all FA criteria. The article can be considered as important as it is an article about a country. Hallows AG 07:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Welcome to FAC, but I don't think this one is ready. This article has had no reviews other than a quick fail at WP:GAN in September (see the article's talk page). This is the diff since September; a lot of work has been done, but the objections mentioned at the GAN review are still valid, I think. You may want to try a peer review. - Dank (push to talk) 11:40, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article was again reviewed in December here and passed all GA criteria. The article is now a GA.--Hallows AG 12:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, you're right, and I've added the quick-failed GAN from December 20 and the promotion 4 days later by an editor with no other experience at GAN (and not much with articles generally) to the talk page. The promotion came after these edits. I recommend submitting the article to WP:GAR for a reevaluation. - Dank (push to talk) 13:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - At least one uncited paragraph and several bare or almost bare URLs. I'm sorry, but it seems your GA review was less than thorough. Also, comprehensiveness-wise, your history section is a little threadbare. Take a look at Indonesia or Canada for examples of FA country articles. Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Which is the uncited paragraph? Also, please note that I did not review the article myself--Hallows AG 13:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was renamed Barunai in the 14th century, possibly influenced by the Sanskrit word varuṇai (वरुणै), meaning "seafarers", later to become Brunei. The word Borneo is of the same origin. In the country's full name Negara Brunei Darussalam, Darussalam (Arabic: دار السلام‎) means "Abode of Peace", while Negara means "country" in Malay." Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Right, I'm not saying you did anything wrong, only that the GAN process didn't work well in this case, and the article probably doesn't meet GAN standards. - Dank (push to talk) 14:10, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I'm very sorry about my stance, by I think there are various aspects that could be vastly improved, namely the filling in of footnotes, the addition of alt text. Perhaps more serious is the lack of comprehensiveness -- United States has 10,128 words, whereas this article only has 2,797 words. I suppose there is much to write about Nrunei, but I would've expected the word count to be at least 4,000. All in all, the article had barely scraped through to GA, so there is much more work getting it to the next level. Try hard, though. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 00:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 01:53, 13 January 2012 [49].

Xbox 360

Nominator(s): TrebleSeven (talk) 15:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think this article should be really for FAC now. It has tons of information of the page, a brilliant lead, and lots of sources. It has improved drastically since it's last nomination in 2007, and I think this article really does have the potential to go through. TrebleSeven (talk) 15:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi TrebelSeven and welcome to FAC! Have you contacted the primary editors on this article to see if they think it is ready for FAC, as is required? Also, I see quite a few problems with this article that make me think it is not ready for FAC, including a cleanup banner in one section, missing references in several places, references missing information, etc. I would recommend that this nomination be withdrawn until these problems have been dealt with. Dana boomer (talk) 15:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 01:53, 13 January 2012 [50].

Limp Bizkit

Nominator(s): WTF (talk) 21:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because one of the GA reviewers suggested nominating it before it was passed. WTF (talk) 21:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. I'm sorry, but I have to oppose based on lazy sourcing. We need author, websites and publishers, and they need to be formatted properly (eg ref 26 lacks the author in the citation, but when I click on the link, the author's name is the first thing I see; ditto ref 14; for ref 20, ew.com is lacking as a proper source. We need "work=Entertainment Weekly. publisher= Time". And page references are waaayyy to broad. Instead of linking 20 different ref tags to one citation that has a page range of 30 pages (i.e. Devenish, Colin (2000). Limp Bizkit. St. Martin's. pp. 1–20. ISBN 031226349X and ^a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z aa ab ac ad ae Devenish, Colin (2000). Limp Bizkit. St. Martin's. pp. 21–51. ISBN 031226349X.) why don't we be more specific about which page has which particular info? A quote in the audio sample info-box lacks citation. Also, do you mind expanding the intro just a bit? It reads well, but it's too short. All in all, there are glaring stylistic and MOS issues that need to be dealt with, and I suggest withdrawing the nomination and resubmitting when you are ready. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Journalist (talk • contribs) 19:06, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, it does. The complaint was that it showed page numbers, but no chapters, so it looked to Journalist that it was separating pages for no reason (1-20, 21-51). But the reason it was set up that way is because there's no chapter titles. So I clarified why the citations were set up that way by adding "Chapter 1", "Chapter 2", etc. to each chapter separation to make it clearer why the pages were separated in such a way.--WTF (talk) 14:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Journalist and Orane are one and the same, btw. And to cut to the chase and to be as specific as possible, I'm saying this: pagination is vital to book sources. Whether or not the book has chapters is irrelevant. Is it possible for you to format the individual citations so that I can source a particular point to the singular page it was taken from? That's the convention, as far as I'm aware. Orane (talk) 05:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Durst's problems with his girlfriend inspired him to write the song "Sour".[2]" Are you telling me that in order to find out if this quote is properly attributed, I'd have to peruse 30 pages from the book? No thank you. My oppose vote remains. Orane (talk) 22:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is how we format book sources. Inline citations use page numbers. And then the more general sources appear in the Reference section, without page numbers. And the article's writer(s) did not think it unreasonable to use this format. Orane (talk) 20:48, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • It's a waste of time for me to completely reformat the article based on an idea that you, personally, think works, but is not an actual guideline. If you think it'll look better to have countless unneeded extra citations for the same sources, you can reformat it yourself. As it stands, your request for me to go over a book that I currently don't have physical access to to reformat it in a way that is both tedious and time consuming.--WTF (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then the article isn't featured article quality. It's as simple as that. You have to put in the required work to get the reward. I'm not forcing you to source it properly. I'm just saying that that is what you need to do in order to have it featured. Do whatever you want. I really couldn't care less. Orane (talk) 21:36, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is sourced properly. You're asking me to change the formatting, which has nothing to do with policy. Again, you don't like the formatting, it's not a guideline. If you don't like the formatting, change it yourself.--WTF (talk) 21:51, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wisdomtenacityfocus, while I don't necessarily agree with all of Journalist's points, consistent and appropriate formatting is required by the FA criteria, and this article does not currently meet that standard. On a quick look I see differences in date formatting (ex FN 3 vs 4), incorrect DOIs (FN 27) and other problems. In regards to page ranges, it is helpful to use shorter ranges to assist in verifiability, particularly when citing direct quotes (which appear only on 1-2 pages in a source). Nikkimaria (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I also have to agree with Orane. Page numbers are the way to go. WP:CITEHOW states that inline citations are used "in order to identify the source, assist readers in finding it, and (in the case of inline citations) indicate the place in the source where the information is to be found." With this in mind, wouldn't it be easier for a reader to pinpoint the exact place in a text where certain material comes from if they were provided with a specific page number? We should as contributors endeavor to help the reader, not hinder them. Page ranges/chapter numbers are therefore less helpful than exact page numbers, and I would suggest that this article would benefit from switching from the former to the latter. I know it must be a bear to consider obtaining the book and then re-sourcing everything so that it's clearer and more encyclopedic, but the article would certainly be improved by doing so, and would better fulfill the FA-criteria. If nothing else, keep this in mind while sourcing future articles. María (yllosubmarine) 20:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - this article has multiple issues, which together suggest it is not appropriate for FA status at this time. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • File:Fred_Durst_at_the_2008_Tribeca_Film_Festival.JPG lacks any indication of licensing
  • WP:MOS issues - unnecessarily bracketed ellipses, overlinking, etc
  • Article is in need of some copy-editing to address issues of grammar, clarity and flow - for example, "Arvizu persuaded Ross Robinson to listen to the demo, who finally listened to the tape after it was appraised by Robinson's girlfriend" and "because of the teenagers death" are both grammatically incorrect
  • "the phrase "Chocolate Starfish" referred to Durst himself, as he had frequently been called an asshole" - you're going to need to explain that one
  • Multiple inconsistencies in reference formatting, some of which are outlined by Journalist above
  • What makes this a high-quality reliable source? This? This? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The photograph of Fred Durst was uploaded by the photographer and is on Wikimedia Commons.--WTF (talk) 04:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Other sources issues

  • Two styles of retrieval date (see ref. 10)
  • Use of both "Retrieved" and "retrieved"
  • "BBC News" wrongly italicised
  • Inconsistencies in page range formats, e'g "79–95" but "30–2"

All these need fixing. Don't be discouraged, though; you can get there. Brianboulton (talk) 23:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Nikkimaria, Maria, Orane, and Brianboulton, all of whom have raised excellent concerns. I suggest Harvard referencing for printed sources or else, you'll be giving the spotchecker a difficult time. The prose isn't particularly spectacular either: Second sentence of the lead needs to be read aloud and reworded: there are two "and"s that are so close to each other. Grammatical error in "After a impressive performance when they opened for Korn at the Dragonfly in Hollywood". And who is to judge how impressive this performance was? Articles must adhere to WP:NPOV. Also, is what Interscope has proposed to pay Bizkit in US dollars? Currency needs to be clarified. This reads bad aloud: "Further criticisms of the band appeared in Rolling Stone and The New York Times; New York Times writer Ann Powers wrote...". Finally, MOS issues in the headings; we don't write 1994–1995, but 1994–95, etc. Sorry, but refs need cleanup and serious copy editing needs to be done for clarity, grammar and neutrality. This is not FA quality yet, but maybe it can be. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:59, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 01:41, 11 January 2012 [51].

Hotel Polen fire

Nominator(s): SpeakFree (talk)(contribs) 02:12, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it is currently a Good Article and after addressing the issues raised at Peer Review I believe this article is ready to become a Featured Article. I have translated this article from the Dutch Wikipedia and significantly expanded it. SpeakFree (talk)(contribs) 02:12, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments, leaning to oppose: a very interesting subject, but I just don't think this article is ready yet. I see quite a few issues with the prose, which may stem from it being translated? Some examples:
  • Hotel Polen (English: Hotel Poland), a hotel in the centre of Amsterdam burned to the ground. -- This reads very strangely, and it's somewhat repetitive from the first sentence, which already establishes that the Hotel Polen fire took place in Amsterdam.
  • The lead does not fulfill WP:LEAD, in that it does not summarize the article as a whole. Consider expanding to include information regarding the fire's cause and cultural impact.'
  • I understand that, but there's currently an entire section in the article called "Cause" -- that there is no known cause should at the very least be mentioned in the lead per WP:LEAD. My point is that it needs to be expanded to properly summarize the article in its current state. María (yllosubmarine) 23:21, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the beginning of the 16th century there was an inn on the site where the Hotel Polen later was located. -- Very awkward; "was later located".
  • At the end of the 18th century the "Poolsche Koffiehuis" (English: Polish Coffee House) -- Probably incorrect per MOS:FOREIGN and/or WP:ITALICS: Poolsche Koffiehuis and "Polish Coffee House", I think? (Check just to be sure!)
  • In 1891, the Hotel Polen was established by the "Maatschappij tot Exploitatie van het Poolsche Koffiehuis" (English: Polish Coffee House Society)[6] after the adjacent space on the Rokin was bought and a building was constructed there which had been designed by the architect Pierre Cuypers,[6][7] who also designed the Amsterdam Central Station and the Rijksmuseum. -- Borderline run-on, break into several sentences.
  • On the ground level of the building a café-restaurant was opened. -- Syntax: A café-restaurant was opened on the ground level of the building."
  • The Hotel Polen was once known as a fashionable hotel. -- Redundancy of "Hotel... hotel". Establishment? Business?
  • The building had nevertheless been inspected by the fire department and deemed safe. -- When?
  • They did issue a list of proposed improvements to be implemented by the hotel. -- Such as?

These comments cover only the lead and the first section ("History"), so there are other outstanding issues aside from what's listed here. I would suggest getting a few independent copy-edits, especially from those who have experience with writing/reviewing FAs. You can also ask for a reviewer or two at WP:GOCE; it seems they even have a section for hopeful Featured Articles, so hopefully you'll get an in depth review of the prose. The article just isn't at FA level yet, but like I said it's a very good subject, so it's worth the effort. My suggestion would be work on the prose, make some new copy-editor friends, perhaps go through another PR, and then make your way back here when ready. Good luck! María (yllosubmarine) 19:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose for now, unfortunately, per María. The prose still needs a lot of work, and I can detect a number of style issues. The lede looks quite meagre to me, though the article is relatively short, which brings us to its comprehensiveness. I cannot make a call on this, however, as I'm unfamiliar with the subject. Nevertheless it remains opposable on prose grounds, and I suggest having an uninvolved copy-editor look it over. If the article doesn't garner more replies or reviews in the following weeks I'll attempt to review it myself. All the best, Auree ★ 20:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The number of stories is mentioned in the infobox. In the Netherlands the "first story" is known as the Begane grond (ground floor) or Parterre (from the French word meaning the same). What is known as the second story in the US is known as the first floor and so forth. The ground floor was rented to a furniture store so there were five floors above the ground floor. Detailed layouts are depicted in the Fire Department report. SpeakFree (talk)(contribs) 22:27, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait, was it the café or the furniture store that occupied the ground level? The "History" section states the former... that should probably be double-checked. Edit: I'm not too sure if "History" is an applicable title for the section here. I suggest changing it to "Background" or somesuch, since a fire—which is what the article is about—doesn't really have a history. Auree ★ 22:33, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was first a café then when business declined it was shut down and the ground floor which previously was occupied by it was rented to the furniture store. Edit: I changed "History" to "Background" per your suggestion. SpeakFree (talk)(contribs) 03:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try incorporating a bit more information about the hotel itself in the lede, and a lot more details about the fire and its result. A very essential part, the cause, is also missing here. Format-wise, I reckon the lede should look something like this, while the references be moved to the body of the article. Auree ★ 21:55, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quite a bit of work needs to be done, as can be seen from the comments on the lede alone. I recommend withdrawing, working on improving the article in the mean time and bringing it back here once it's ready. I'll be glad to help you outside of FAC, but I just see too many issues here to address while this is at FAC. Auree ★ 21:57, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After some consultation I decided to withdraw the nomination for now. I hope I will still get come constructive criticism so it may pass a future FAC nomination. Thanks everyone for your input. SpeakFree (talk)(contribs) 00:29, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck, and thank you for taking on this article and working with us! I'm also a native Dutch speaker, so I'm sure we could work to get this article in great shape. Just let me know how I can help on my talk page after the current comments have been addressed. Auree ★ 00:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 01:41, 11 January 2012 [52].

Hurricane Igor

Nominator(s): Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Regarded as the most destructive tropical cyclone in Newfoundland history, Hurricane Igor caused unprecedented flooding across eastern portions of the island, isolating more than 20,000 people. After falling by the wayside last time around at FAC, I've fixed up previous concerns brought up by reviewers and added some more information. I fully believe that this article represents the most comprehensive account of the storm available and meets FA criteria. As always, all thoughts and comments are welcome and encouraged. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. - Dank (push to talk)

  • Do you by chance have anything more on Operation Lama? - Dank (push to talk) 14:42, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Anything specific? The majority of the second paragraph of Aftermath is about the operation. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:44, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm not so familiar with Canadian military practices. I have a bias here; I'm aware that the only contact that much of the US public has with the military comes after disasters, including hurricanes, so these clean-up operations have a disproportionately large effect on opinion and even policymaking. I don't know if the same is true in Canada, but if your sources have anything more on the operation itself or reaction to the operation, it would be nice to see a subsection on the operation. - Dank (push to talk) 15:11, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Lede
  • SSHWS requires an endash, not a hyphen. Since the article currently uses a hyphen, I think you got it mixed up? Also, the preceding sentence looks fine to me; clear and concise. Auree ★ 18:15, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "completing this phase within hours after of striking southern Newfoundland." You mean it was no longer an extratropical cyclone, or you are talking about it as a tropical cyclone?
  • "The remnants of Igor were later absorbed by another cyclone on September 23" Er, being specific won't be harmful here
  • "While over the open ocean, large swells produced by the hurricane resulted in three fatalities," Instead of using the latter comma, use an em dash
  • "with roughly 27,500 residences losing electricity" → "with roughly 27,500 residences having lost electricity"
  • "isolating roughly 150 communities" I'd recommend using a different word other than "roughly" as you used it just four sentences earlier
Meteorological history
  • "classified a tropical depression; at this time the depression was situated roughly 90 mi (140 km) southeast of the Cape Verde Islands." This should be shortened to something like "classified a tropical depression while situated roughly 90 mi (140 km) southeast of the Cape Verde Islands."
  • "at which time it was named" → "and was subsequently named"
  • "[[National Hurricane Center]] (NHC)" should be formatted as "[[National Hurricane Center|National Hurricane Center (NHC)]]" per this.
  • "Development of Igor quickly ceased once it was named as a nearby disturbance" Seems to imply that it was named after a "nearby disturbance" — I'd recommend using "while" in place of "as"
  • Agreed with the problem, but I'm not a fan of the suggestion provided. Overall the sentence is a bit odd, so I'd suggest rewording to "Igor stopped strengthening due to moderate wind shear from a nearby disturbance, which displaced the convection from its center" or something along those lines. Even that sounds a bit off, though. By the way, since this article largely covers a Canadian storm, shouldn't the spelling comfort to Canadian English ("centre" rather than "center")? Auree ★ 13:53, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with tropical storm-force winds covering an area roughly 680 mi (1,090 km) wide." You use "roughly" just one sentence after the previous usage
Bermuda
  • "the watch was upgraded to a warning as" Clarify by changing "watch" to "hurricane watch" or "warning" to "hurricane warning"
  • "The Bermudian government closed its schools" I thought residents/agencies/etc. of Bermuda were referred to as "Bermudan"
  • "Against initial fears" Here, it seems to say that they occurred in conjunction or agreement with the fears; it would be more concise if you used "defying" or something like that
United States
  • "Rip currents in Florida pulled two people out to sea, who were rescued." → "Rip currents in Florida pulled two people out to sea who were later rescued."
Canada
  • "On September 21, the CHC" It sounds a bit strange when you use "on" followed by the date in the previous sentence and use it again here. I'd prefer "The following day, the CHC" or something of that sort
  • "In St. Lawrence, a confirmed 9.37 in (238 mm) of rain fell," Shouldn't that be a "confirmed total"?
  • "In Cape Pine, near where the center of Igor tracked, sustained winds of 80 mph (130 km/h)[nb 3]" Notes or refs should go after punctuation if possible
  • "it was noted as a 1-in-50 year event, including powerful winter storms." Clarify that you mean including winter storms, it would be a 1-in-50 year event
Aftermath
  • "complaints were made by several people, including church ministers" Remove unnecessary comma
  • Reluctant oppose on prose for now Comment - Thank you for taking this on again. The article is extremely comprehensive and well researched. Unfortunately, the prose is a bit poor in several areas, which I wouldn't expect from a FA. I've read through the article, and found that problems such as ungrammatical or unnecessarily wordy constructions (including dangling modifiers and "with + ing" setups) extend beyond the lede. The choice of words is also odd and informal in some areas (quickly scanning through the article brought up "Due to a overestimated bias in Igor's intensity," "Igor prompted the issuance of tropical storm watches", "Against initial fears, Igor left relatively little damage across Bermuda", "mass exodus", "The main complaint brought about was", "was to last for the duration of the emergency phase in the storm's immediate aftermath"). I suggest having an uninvolved copy-editor look it through. More specific concerns from the lede below. Auree ★ 18:15, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The origins of Igor were within a broad area of low pressure – within? Additionally, try avoiding the passive voice here (e.g. "Igor originated from a broad area of low pressure").
  • A prolonged turn towards the north was apparent by this time. – pretty awkward wording, plus I'm not sure what it's saying.
  • I can see what it means, but the wording is quite odd. First off, it's in passive voice, and unnecessarily so. Also, "was apparent by this time?" It could easily be reworded using simple and concise prose (e.g. "Igor then made a prolonged turn toward the north", or if you wanna keep the past perfect tense: "By then, Igor had begun making a prolonged turn toward the north"). Auree ★ 21:50, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not a fan of using a broad term like "system" when much more accurate terms have appeared in the article ("hurricane", "cyclone", even "storm").
  • After turning northeastward, Igor began to transition into an extratropical cyclone, completing this phase within hours after of striking southern Newfoundland. – tighten to "After turning northeastward, Igor began an extratropical transition, which it completed after striking southern Newfoundland."
  • The following 'graph has a lot of the type of issues I mentioned before (dangling modifiers and such). Auree ★ 18:15, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sources need consistency in whether middle name initials for re authors are listed or not
  • Watch out for unnecessarily wikilinking to things like PDF, DOC, and TXT formats
  • Ref 13: Agence France-Presse is not work; Sydney Morning Herald is
  • Ref 15: Bernews should be work for consistency with other newspaper formatting
  • Ref 17: Check publisher/author formatting
  • Ref 20: Same problem as ref 15
  • Ref 25: See here (comments for Ref 13)
  • Ref 33: Author field is confusing
  • Ref 41: Same problem as refs 15 and 20
  • Ref 42: Nitpicking, but check title
  • Ref 44: Needs a closer look. I'm not sure if CBA News is just the hosting website rather than the publisher of the document. As for the actual document, it appears to have multiple chapters written by different authors with multiple editors... I'm not too sure, so I'll ask User:Fifelfoo to help out with this one. Auree ★ 19:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I got Ref 44 and fixed it in the article. At its heart Ref 44 is an email, forwarded multiple times during email correspondence, contained in a set of government correspondence, that was then prised open by a media authority under Access to Information, and finally published under a pseudo-title by the media organisation on its website. I used cite report to get the "unpublished" type display, and then set |type=email archive. For the title of the Access to Information publication, I used the |series= field. As none of these titles are real, I used long descriptive titles for documents. Fifelfoo (talk) 20:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some comments by Mitch32(Never support those who think in the box)
  • I don't have much to say, but Hylian Auree's excellent FAC review mimics normally what I'd produce. He did a great job explaining it.
  • A nitpick personally, but is "the most intense tropical cyclone of the 2010 Atlantic hurricane season" necessary in the first sentence of the meteorological history?
  • "In the storm's wake, military personnel were deployed to assist in recovery efforts and aid distribution." – This one tends to want to me to ask to rewrite it, because it doesn't sum up the aftermath as well as the good-looking Aftermath section does. I'd at least mention the Ophelia issues afterwards.
  • You have List of retired Atlantic hurricane names see also'd twice. Is it necessary to see also both in the namesake section and within the Aftermath? I'd probably personally toss the Aftermath one.
  • "The main impacts" – From a personal standpoint, something seems very off in wording like this. Is there a different way it could be worded?
  • "Long seen to be within Igor's track, Bermuda was finally placed under a hurricane watch on September 17 as the threat became imminent." – I'd reword this, seems a little POVish to me, but people may disagree.

Just my stuff for you to work on. Mitch32(Never support those who think in the box) 21:07, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Images are unproblematic. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:57, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:31, 9 January 2012 [53].

Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game

Nominator(s): Jrcla2 (talk) 20:53, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article status because it is already at GA status and I would like to see it be the Main Page's Featured Article this coming March 2, 2012. That date marks the 50th anniversary of Chamberlain's remarkable achievement. Jrcla2 (talk) 20:53, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Mitch32(Never support those who think in the box)
  • Citations are a major issue for this article, unfortunately:
  1. The date formatting is a mess. My suggestion is to find one style such as January 6, 2012 and stick with it among all citations.
  2. Citation 23, exactly what is the author here? There seems to be some formatting issues.
  3. There are very few to no retrieval dates in the citations that do have links, that should be rectified.
  4. Citation 1 and 12 is underformatted.
  5. Why is a book cited in the references but not in the Further Reading like Cherry is?
  6. I can see you tried your best, but these need a large overhaul period.
  • The lack of photos pardoning the one in the lead bothers me a slight, but not urgent.

Just thoughts to ponder. Mitch32(Never support those who think in the box) 21:21, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Zagalejo^^^
  • I would guess that part of the reason his accomplishment didn't make much news is that the NBA, in general, wasn't as popular in the early 1960s as it is today. Do any sources discuss that fact?
  • A general issue: who was using that German book as a source? Is that really the best available source? Is anyone even available to check the text against the source? Zagalejo^^^ 23:12, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll add more as I look through the article. Zagalejo^^^ 22:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose a quick glance I see a bunch of issues.
  • I agree with Zagalejo about the German source, I highly doubt a three page mention in a book about a bunch of basketball stars (according to book) is the most reliable source on the game.
  • Citation number one, I don't see in the source where NBA calls the game one of the greatest ever, (it's originally from ESPN as well), and a claim like that needs more than a few sources.
  • Lead needs to be thickened per WP:LEAD, a bit about the background, the game itself and the aftermath should be mentioned.
  • Comprehensive issues. I see nothing about how the game was totally different from the 1960s until now, on why Chamberlain feat probably won't get accomplish again, potential rule changes because of the game (this game raised eyebrows within the NBA), how the game helped put professional basketball on the map (Chamberlain appeared in the Ed Sullivan show two days after the game), why the game was controversial, and changed sports journalism as no journalist was in the game being "meaningless" and so forth.
  1. Some of these issues is listed on the Walt 1962 book, which isn't used.
  1. I have many more concerns, especially with tone which I will comment tonight Secret account 00:01, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Sorry, but I couldn't make it much farther than the references and first few sections before seeing problems that cause a failure to meet FL criteria. Several significant ones have been picked up above; here are other examples that stuck out to me.

  • Reference 1 goes to ESPN.com, not NBA.com.
  • Ref 8 has a p. for a page range when it should be pp.
  • No page numbers are provided for content from ref 9
  • In ref 15, the newspaper that runs that website isn't given, which means that only giving the Associated Press as the publisher is misleading. I had to do some detective work before coming here to see if the source was reliable, which is not a great thing at this stage.
  • In general the references are underformatted and require significant work. I'm also concerned about whether the German source is the best that can be provided. There's nothing that says a foreign source can't be used, but if good sources are avaliable in English, they'd be preferable.
  • Some prose issues exist as well. For example, we have in the lead "The Warriors won the game 169–147, setting a then-record for the most combined points in a game by both teams with 316." It wasn't just the Warriors who set the record; the Knicks played their part too. That needs some re-writing.
  • MoS violations in the game report, where there are numerous scores given without the proper en dashes. "Warriors-Knicks" from Prologue could also use an en dash. While not a big deal on their own, the issues here symbolize a lack of sufficient preparation before the nomination.
  • Also, I see "Warrior-Knicks" later in Prologue. I'd imagine the first name should be plural.
  • The whole third paragraph seems a little out of place in an article about this particular game. I'd be much more interested in a few sentences on why a team based in Philadelphia was playing home games in Hershey in the first place. Maybe this whole paragraph would be a better fit with the added information.
  • "So their inexperienced backup pivot, Darrall Imhoff, was forced to play against scoring champion Chamberlain." I've seen a lot of examples of stellar writing in my time as an FAC reviewer. None of them involved sentences starting with "So".
  • First 42 minutes: "causing arena speaker Dave Zinkoff to fire up the previously sleepy crowd." Were the fans taking naps during the game or something? Also, "fire up" is not that formal.
  • I see "later stated that resistance was futile" in the middle of this section." That's really informal sportswriting-like commentary, and is laden with POV. How did that get past GAN?

Overall, this is a long way from FA standards, and I doubt that it can be fixed in time for this nomination to have a reasonable chance of success. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:23, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose mainly because a book dedicated to this game should be referenced.

  1. If Wilt, 1962: The Night of 100 Points and the Dawn of a New Era listed in Further Reading is an entire book on the subject of this game, it would be an oversight to not use it or a similar book as a source.
  2. "meaningless late-season match": elaborate on why it was meaningless
  3. "pivot": explain, wikilink, or just use "center"
  4. "ordered his men to feed Chamberlain": use layman term for feed
  5. "kept his cool despite getting perpetually triple and quadruple-teamed": was this not standard for Wilt?
  6. "He scored another 28 points to lift": in the half or reative to when?
  7. "possibly break a free throw shooting record": should mention here his typical free throw problems
  8. "Warriors guard Guy Rodgers would end the game with 20 assists.": mention at end instead of middle, wikilink to assist
  9. "However, according to all eyewitnesses, the game became a farce.": remove however
  10. "He had no three-point field goals (the NBA did not start recording them until the 1979–80 season).": Is this needed?
  11. Who held records before Chamberlain broke them? Also not sure is a table would be helpful for the record with total and previous and current holders
  12. "Al Attles said that after Chamberlain's previous record 78-point game": move to Prologue.—Bagumba (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 14:10, 2 January 2012 [54].

Mandell Creighton

Nominator(s): Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:09, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It seems appropriate, on Christmas day, to nominate the Wikipedia article on Mandell Creighton, ecclesiastical historian and former Bishop of London, to FAC. The article has a tangled and fitful history. It first appeared here in October 2009 in an unsuccessful nomination, by user:Iridescent, for which I was one of the reviewers. During the following weeks, looking at first to simply add more material, I read James Covert’s superb biography of the Creightons, and ended up completely rewriting the article. I then put it on the back burner whose flame eventually sputtered, leading the article to go cold. This may have happened because I became overwhelmed by real life, but also because I felt conflicted. Eventually, in April 2011, fearing that the article, like its protagonist, might become extinct, I put it up for peer review. I received one (and it takes only one) insightful review from user:Tim riley, which breathed new energy both into the article and into my flagging resolve. Although I let the article lie fallow for another six months, I found, as if by magic, all sorts of helpful infoboxes, links to wikiquotes, wikisources, and the like appearing upon my return. The work of Wiki-gnomes is seldom acknowledged. I now await critical comments from the FAC reviewers. I am grateful (even in seeming antagonism) to user:Iridescent for bringing Mandell Creighton to light first on these pages. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:09, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note - Please check the image captions for stray periods. Graham Colm (talk) 20:23, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. Did find a missing period in an image caption, but no strays, but my eyesight is no longer what it used to be. Perhaps someone else will take a look. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:52, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:CAP, I have removed the periods from the ends of captions that are noun phrases. Graham Colm (talk) 09:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see. Good point. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copyscape check - No issues were revealed by Copyscape searches. Graham Colm (talk) 20:43, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I am most interested to see this here (see my own humble effort), and intend to post some detailed review comments when I am a bit less sleepy. One immediate comment on image sizes: why are most of them so huge? There is no need for this; they are perfectly clear in their thumbnail format. As it is, the images are over-dominant and tend to distract from the text. Brianboulton (talk) 22:07, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome aboard. The images are huge, now that you mention it. My handiwork it is, apparently. All reduced now to WP default size. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:38, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The images are appropriately sized, now, but there may be an issue with the licencing of those scanned from A Victorian Marriage: Mandell and Louise Creighton. For these to be PD in the US we need to establish that they were first published before 1923; this requirement supersedes the "life + 70 years" which is the basis of the current licencing. I strongly advise that you consult one of Wikipedia's images experts, e.g. User:Jappalang for advice about the appropriate licencing for these images. Brianboulton (talk) 12:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've left a note on Jappalang's talk page. The photographs have been credited (in Covert) to the wife of a Creighton grandson. That strongly suggests they were not published elsewhere earlier. Have my fingers crossed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
By "credited" I take it you mean she has given the book permission to use these. If she holds the copyright, then there could be problems reproducing them here. But let's see what the experts say; I am rather a novice in such matters. Brianboulton (talk) 14:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. The photograph captions have her name, Christian (Kisty) Creighton, in parentheses at the end; however, nowhere does "© Christian Creighton" appear. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments: On more general matters, this article looks promising, being fluently written and evidently comprehensive. It could have done with a detailed prose check before its nomination, as there are numerous prose niggles throughout the text. Rather than fill up this page, I am posting these to the article's talk page. Beyond prose glitches I have so far (I'm about half way through) identified the following issues for attention:-

  • Over-citation: E.g. a single citation at the end will cover the whole first paragraph of the Early life section — Brianboulton (15:31, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
    • Yes, a bad habit (in this context) arising from working on articles that are controversial. Will unify in fewer cites.
      • Done — Fowler&fowler (23:56, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  • "Cumbria" as a region did not exist before 1974, Until then, Carlisle was in Westmoreland.— Brianboulton (15:31, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
    • This I didn't know. Will amend. Done — Fowler&fowler (23:56, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  • I'm not sure about the Durham Grammar School; "the" isn't normally used when the first word in a school's name is a place. You wouldn't, for example, say "the Eton College" or "the Charterhouse School", though you would say "the Royal Grammar School, Guildford".— Brianboulton (15:31, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
    • What you say sounds right, but a quick check in Google books suggests that "the" has been used with "Durham Grammar School," in the 19th century, in the 20th, and in the 21st. But I'm happy to remove it if it doesn't sound right. Please advise. — Fowler&fowler (23:56, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  • As a matter of curiosity, how did a schoolboy qualify for a postmastership, which term normally designates a senior undergraduate?— Brianboulton (15:31, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
    • According to Covert, "Failing to win it (a classical scholarship to Balliol (my parentheses)), he applied to Merton and was elected to a classical postmastership. Postmasters, dating back to the 1380s, were those scholarship students who formed the academic nucleus of Merton. (p. 38)" Other Wikipedia pages, for example, Thomas Fowler (a contemporary of Creighton and later, briefly, vice-chancellor of Oxford) and Louis MacNeice, describe similar transitions from high school to postmasterships at Merton. But, then, I'm not an expert here. — Fowler&fowler (23:56, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  • "he had decided to accept holy orders". Something is surely missing, here. To "accept" holy orders, he must have undergone some form of training and preparation. When did this happen, and what were the dates of his ordination, first as deacon and later as priest? Where was he ordained, and by whom? This information must be on record.— Brianboulton (15:31, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
    • Good point. Will get back on this.
      • Creighton was ordained deacon by the Bishop of Oxford in 1870, three years after he received his BA and became a don. He preached his first sermon in April 1871. I have rephrased the "accept holy orders bit;" will add more. — Fowler&fowler (23:56, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  • The article is long; in some cases I feel that there is overdetailing on unimportant matters. One example: "Most visitors stayed at least overnight. In one year, 69 visitors were recorded in the family visitors' book." This does not really contribute to our knowledge of Creighton and could easily be excised. There are other similar cases.— Brianboulton (15:31, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
    • I agree. The article was written quickly in the after glow of having just read Covert's book. I felt then that no detail was unimportant.  :) Will prune the fluff.
      • I've pruned some, but I have to say, I'm finding it hard to let go.  :) Perhaps if you could identify other excesses, ... — Fowler&fowler (23:56, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)
  • Do we know why the Creighton children were home-schooled, when there were evidently schools available - in which Creighton took a particular interest?— Brianboulton (15:31, 26 December 2011), — (continues after insertion below.)

More on the way... Brianboulton (talk) 15:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A few more concerns:-

  • Do we need the long roll call of the people met at the Harvard anniversary? None of these figure elsewhere in the article; a couple of the more distinguished/recognisable names would be adequate
    • Yeah, that does seem long, especially when each gentleman has three names. Will chop.
  • References in the text are to volumes 3 and 4 of the papacy history. But I note in the list of works in the sources section, the volume numbers are in Roman form
  • Talking of "perks" seems a bit trivialising. Also, £10,000 a year wasn't just a "comfortable" salary, it was enormous – twice the prime minister's stipend, and worth about £900,000 at 2011 values (the current Bishop of London's annual salary, incidentally, is about £53,000). I'd like to see some further confirmation of what we were paying our bishops back then .
    • I'm happy to take out the reference to salary, but it really was that much. In 1909, the Archbishop of Canterbury was making £15,000, York: 10,000, Bishop of London: 10,000; Durham: 8,000. (See for example, page 137 of Jackson, Samuel MacAuley (1909), The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Thought: Draeseke-Goa V4, Funk and Wagnals, pp. 137–, ISBN 978-1-4286-3178-6. The Church of England's yearly income from voluntary contributions totaled £8 million in 1909, and from ancient endowments, another 5.5 million. If the multiplier really is 90, then the voluntary contributions by worshipers then totaled GBP 720 million in today's dollars, which is almost the same as what they are today (750 million) when there are likely more parishes with higher costs (infrastructure, salaries, pension funds, ...)
  • On perhaps a more serious issue, I note that of the 146 citations, 124 are to Covert's book (85 percent of all citations). This looks like over-reliance on one source. A reasonable number of sources are listed, together with substantial further reading, so there does not seem to be a shortage of relevant material. Why, then, so much focus on Covert? Brianboulton (talk) 00:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was thinking about the same thing today. The problem is that Covert's is the only biography. The other references have a mention or two here and there, but nothing substantial. Louise Creighton's biography, Life and letters of Mandell Creighton, of course, has a lot of detail (much reproduced in Covert), but that book was published in 1904. I pretty much scoured everything that was available in November 2009. I will be looking at books published in the last two years to see if I can swap attributions. (See my "to do" list on Talk:MC.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I had something of the same problem with the Lang article – a single biography (and that written in 1950). However, Crowder's ODNB entry for Creighton lists a number of sources of a reasonably recent nature. These include: Martin & Highfield: A History of Merton College (1997); G. Carnell: The Bishops of Peterborough (1993); D.L. Edwards: Leaders of the Church of England (1971), and others. And, of course, there is Crowder's article itself; citing basic information to it would help to reduce the reliance on Covert. As a further source, I can consult the British Library's newspaper archive for any interesting contemporary references to Creighton; there are bound to be some relating to his time as bishop. Brianboulton (talk) 11:36, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Whoops. I completely forgot about ODNB.  :) I had read it back in 2009, in fact the previous version of the article had used it too, and I meant to incorporate it once I'd finished Covert, but completely forgot. Thanks. That is very helpful. (Covert's book is part critical biography and part popular and anecdotal. That mix has trickled into the article. Crowder's register is certainly more encyclopedic.) If you can consult BL's newspaper archive, that'll be great. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:09, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image review concerns (per request stated above): Brian is correct in that the copyright status of the images in the US must be ascertained. The US-side copyrights are determined by US law (which is more interested in publication dates), not by the images' country of origin (the place of publication). To be considered legally published, the work must be authorized by the copyright holder. In this case, the photographs are credited to Creighton's granddaughter-in-law; this means she is credited as the source of the photographs, but perhaps not the copyright holder. For some of the images (e.g. File:CreightonFamilyCarlisle2.jpg, File:CreightonOxford1.jpg, this turns out to be not an issue; for others, it could be as detailed below.

Fowler, could you provide the page numbers for the other photographs? It would be helpful for future re-users. Jappalang (talk) 06:19, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    • Thanks Jappalang, That is very helpful. I have provided page numbers and complete citation to Covert's book in each of the photographs. I can't say that I've clearly understood what I should be doing next. Should I be contacting the publishers, Hambledon and London Ltd., or the author, James Covert? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:10, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Covert retired in 1997. Assuming he was 65 then, he should be pushing 80. In 2003, Continuum Publishers acquired Hambledon and London; In July 2011, Bloomsbury PLC acquired Continuum. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:20, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think Covert should be the first step (since the person liaising with Ms Creighton would be him). Most probably, he would not know and would refer you to Ms Creighton, but those are the steps UK laws likely require us to take. If he is invalid, then perhaps Bloomsbury might have the contact information. If clarification cannot be obtained, it would be best to remove the first two pictures from the book listed in bullets above. For Louise Creighton, I have implemented a temporary measure.[55] As for the Vanity Fair image, upload it to Wikipedia with the advice above and use the local (Wikipedia) copy. Jappalang (talk) 12:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, I just discovered that the first two pictures above were published in Creighton, Louise (1904), Life and letters of Mandell Creighton, volume 1, Longmans, Green, and Creighton, Louise (1904), Life and letters of Mandell Creighton, volume 2, Longmans, Green. That means that "PD-US-1923-abroad" will apply. For the remaining two, I will implement what you suggest. These volumes have some more pictures (especially one of the 15 year old Creighton) which I might upload, if they don't have too many jpeg artifacts. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
            • Ah, that is great, so it seems Covert's assumption that the photographs were never published was wrong some of the photographs were already published (since Creighton's wife published his letters with the photographs in 1901, they must have been reproduced with the authors' permission; they were likely alive and prepared to pursue copyright infringement). Better quality (and higher resolution) pictures can be extracted here and here. I note that Mrs Creighton has listed the photographers in the List of Illustrations for certain photographs; that means investigation must be carried out on their life spans. It would be safe to have those images (published in those 2 books, but uncertain on whether their authors have died more than 70 years ago) on Wikipedia with {{PD-1923-abroad}} instead of Commons. Jappalang (talk) 16:17, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
              • Um... with the discovery of Life and letters of Mandell Creighton, several new PD (at least in the US) photographs are also found and introduced into the article. The end result, however, seems a bit too much (on a 1920px-wide screen, the left and right are all images or quote boxes). Maybe a bit of consideration on which images/quoteboxes to use should be taken? Copyright wise, I believe there is no more issues with the images currently used in the article. Jappalang (talk) 04:09, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
                • Yup, guilty as charged. I did go overboard. I've removed the caricature image (per BB's suggestion in review). I've left the others in for now, but will be keeping your remarks in mind when working on the article again. Thanks again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:36, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done, no comment on source comprehensiveness or distribution. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:37, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, SandyGeorgia, about the templates. I forgot about not using them! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note
Since the article relies largely on one source, since other sources have been identified which need to be incorporated, and since I don't have enough time to do this before I start traveling on the January 3, I feel it is best to withdraw the article from FAC review and to resubmit in a couple of months. I will formally let it remain here for a couple of days yet until the image issues have been sorted out. You are welcome to make suggestions here until that time, but please don't vote (support or oppose). Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Final summarizing note
I will be working on diversifying the sources and also on making the latter half of the article more nuanced. I will resubmit in a few months time. I'm grateful to user:Brianboulton for bringing to bear on the article his outstanding reviewing skills. The prose review is now complete, although not yet entirely implemented. I'm also grateful to user:Jappalang for his offering without delay his great expertise on images. I would like to request the FAC delegates to now withdraw the article from FAC review. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 11:38, 1 January 2012 [56].

Super Meat Boy

Nominator(s): PresN 00:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hey all, hopefully second time is the charm for this indie video game. Last FAC in July ran into some fixable issues that were then not fixed as I got really busy at work. Four months later, here it is again! As before, it's been copyedited by Diannaa of the WP:GOCE as well as beat on in the last FAC, all of the refs are working and archived, and it has alt text and no redirects. I think I've addressed everything that came up in the last FAC, so hopefully it will be smoother sailing this time. --PresN 00:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:55, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Fixed the link/archive.
  • Kotaku is considered a reliable source per WP:VG/RS, for the authors in question- Michael McWhertor, reviews editor, was asked by SCE to appear on the second season of their reality tv series, The Tester, as well as a guest on Gametrailers TV. Stephen Totilo has worked with MTV Networks on video games, written articles for IGN, the New York Times, Newsweek among others.
  • Gamerevolution is considered a reliable source per WP:VG/RS, and is cited in dozens scholar articles per Google.[57][58] It is also a source material for several books,[59] such as Playing Video Games: Motives, Responses, and Consequences by Peter Vorderer and Jennings Bryant,[60](p. 310) and Alice's Adventures: Lewis Carroll in Popular Culture by Will Brooker.[61] (p. 254)
  • Destructoid - I had a justification, but then I remembered that I don't much like the site or want to drive traffic to it, so it's been replaced. --PresN 21:22, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great article, but a few flaws I've got to mention:

  • the wikilinked "Windows PCs" redirects to Microsoft Windows, so it may be best to wikilink it as "Windows PCs"
  • "Ghosts 'n Goblins" is overlinked, being wikilinked more than once in the main body of the article, while GameTrailers is overlinked in the Reception section
  • Does "United States" need to be wikilinked?
  • The "(XBLA)" from "Xbox Live Arcade (XBLA)" is first used in the Development and marketing section, despite "Xbox Live Arcade" being used in the lead, as well as the Gameplay section before it

That is all; if you have the time, please analyse the article The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, which is at FAC, and leave any commwnts on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion/archive5-SCB '92 (talk) 23:09, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All done, thanks! --PresN 23:31, 3 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • Pretty sure collapsable tables, like the ones for the characters and soundtrack, are discouraged by the MoS.
  • WP:COLLAPSE doesn't prohibit them, it just states that you shouldn't collapse article text, reference lists, or image galleries. The default collapsible table has been fixed in recent years so that it is properly read by screen-readers. --PresN 06:32, 5 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Development and marketing: There are a couple examples of double periods, caused by the end of sentences coming right after game titles with periods at the end. There's one at the end of the section's first paragraph, and another in a sentence mentioning WarioWare D.I.Y. Not sure what the MoS presribes for this, to be honest.
  • Refs 20 and 48 have parts of their titles in all caps, which they shouldn't be even if the sources present them that way.

Comment: I haven't read the article yet, but I would call the playable character list gameguide info and recommend its removal. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:21, 7 December 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Well, I disagreed last FAC, but you're right. Removed the table and merged the info into the Gameplay section. --PresN 20:39, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • "the evil Dr. Fetus." - not sure why we need to call him "evil". It is understandable one way or the other.
    • ", though the red blood left behind on surfaces that the player has touched remains.[4]" - will this affect the gameplay if the blood is on the ground?
    • "flash version" - flash should be capitalicized
    • "The game was explicitly designed by the team to be their version of Super Mario Bros.[12]" - sounds odd
    • "In 2011 Voxelous" - no comma?
    • "is 2'25" long," - do you mean 2:25?♫GoP♫TCN 16:37, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed all of these. --PresN 17:14, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I did some edits and hopefully improved readability a little. I think it's a great article. One question though, is there any plot information to be added? It doesn't sound like the game has a very complicated storyline, just asking. Tango16 (talk) 16:27, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's basically no story- each level is in a vacuum, and between worlds are short cutscenes that do little but show meat boy getting close to bandage girl, Dr. Fetus stealing her away, and a reason for the transition in level theme. The plot isn't noted in any review or synopsis, and isn't a driving force for the game's action. --PresN 17:14, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine, then. I don't have any other questions about the page. Tango16 (talk) 18:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Partial Spotcheck 1/63 sources Footnote 12 was cited m times, and was the most heavily relied upon item. It is a primary, sometimes it was cited properly with a backing secondary, sometimes not. Frustratingly, despite this being a 4 page source, the citation fails to give the page number for various claims. I don't have any concerns regarding paraphrase due to the style of writing used which is appropriately synthetic and involves rewriting from scratch imho. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why is a primary source so heavily relied on for narrative as well as anecdote, and so little backed up by secondary sources?
    • Fails verification: "The PC release was more heavily promoted than the XBLA version." Care to explain why when all the other uses are very careful? Fifelfoo (talk) 02:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note to all- I'm going to be a bit slow for the next week or so; I'm out of the country so my internet access is spotty. As for Fifelfoo in particular- First off, I've never heard of anyone asking for page numbers for a 4-page interview. I can certainly do it though (not right now, but hopefully in the next few days). As for the use of the source- it's not self-published (so does that count as a primary source?), and its used exclusively for the development section, so I'm unsure what you mean by "narrative". It's not backed up with other sources for the simple reason that no other sources for that information exist. Indie video games, and indeed, video games in general, seldom get any third-party articles about their development process- a post-mortem by the developers is generally the best source we have for what went on before the game was announced or released. As to your second point, it's a combination of two parts of the source (and I'm fully open to rewording it; it was changed in the last FAC as well) - on page 2 they talk about how much they worked with Steam to design the PC release sale and promotion, while they spend the entirety of page 4 complaining about how little the Xbox release was promoted. The only purpose to the sentence is just to note that the problems that the article talks about happening with the Xbox release were not present in the PC release, and not to make a strong statement about the amount of PC promotion. --PresN 17:14, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 11:38, 1 January 2012 [62].

Martha Layne Collins

Nominator(s): Acdixon (talk · contribs) 16:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article covers the life of Kentucky's first (and to date, only) female governor. It passed a GA review on April 8, 2010, but has not undergone a peer review. Collins was the seventh female governor in U.S. history and the third who was not the wife or widow of a past governor. She got some consideration as the Democratic VP candidate from Walter Mondale before Mondale chose Geraldine Ferraro. I'm hoping to get an FA pass in time for this article to be considered for TFA on International Women's Day (March 8), or at least sometime during Women's History Month in the U.S. (March). Acdixon (talk · contribs) 16:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • FN 4: why no author?
    • Fixed.
  • Use a consistent format for shortened citations to authorless newspaper articles - for example, compare FNs 4 and 9
    • Well, FN 4 was messed up to begin with. All authorless newspaper articles should be of the form "title". Newspaper name. If you find any that aren't, please let me know.
  • For multi-author works, be consistent in how many authors are included in shortened citations
    • Assume you mean A New History of Kentucky; added Klotter
  • Check formatting on Wolfe and Kocher citations compared to other newspaper articles
    • Fixed
  • FN 52: check capitalization
    • Fixed.
  • FN 55: check Hall of Fame title
    • Fixed.
  • No citations to Chellgren, "Midway College Elects Trustees"
    • Fixed.
  • Check alphabetization of bibliography
    • Fixed.
  • "Toyota Incentives Legal, Court Rules; Justices Split 4—3 Over Package" - should use endash, not emdash
    • I hate dashes.
  • University Press of Kentucky or The University Press of Kentucky?
    • Fixed.
  • Check newspaper name on Kocher
    • Fixed.
  • Be consistent in how you notate authors/editors of larger works (ie. "In..."). Nikkimaria (talk) 16:04, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed by adding second author for A New History of Kentucky
Thanks for your comments. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 16:13, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 11:38, 1 January 2012 [63].

Jud Süß (1940 film)

Nominator(s): Pseudo-Richard (talk) 19:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this as a featured article because, after a couple of months of work, I think it's ready. This is an important film as it is one of the two or three most famous and studied antisemitic films of the Nazi era. It has been the subject of at least three documentary films in recent years and, unfortunately, seems to have been revived in neo-Nazi and white supremacist circles. Pseudo-Richard (talk) 19:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:01, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now, as there are a lot of formatting issues to deal with in citations. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:01, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. Many of the issues mentioned above have been addressed. I'm still working on some of them. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 09:03, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Question I was just wondering why the cast section is needed if they are inline the plot section and there is a casting section. Also why is it in a table? --Peppageಠ_ಠ 22:16, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm... I dunno. It seems de rigeur for articles on films to have a "Cast" section that provides a concise listing of the cast. I'm not wedded to having it but, when the article went through peer review, Brianboulton seemed to think that the Plot, Analysis and Cast sections were standard for most FA-quality articles about films and so should be presented first in the article rather than last so I moved them up to the top. The "Plot" section mentions the key actors but, because the article is already quite long, it does not cover all the action of the film or even all the actors. Similarly, the "Casting" section covers only the casting of the four lead actors because several sources cover the story of their reluctance to accept the parts offered to them.--Pseudo-Richard (talk) 22:50, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm looking at MOS:FILM#Cast for the answer. Perhaps it would be best to take the names out of the plot and leave the section? I think the table is the real issue anyway, I don't see the need for it. --Peppageಠ_ಠ 03:40, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for telling me about MOS:FILM. I didn't know that existed. I will look it over and see if there are any other issues that need addressing. As for the "Cast" section, I will de-tableize the info immediately and see if anybody else objects to the section remaining. I will also compare the list in the "Cast" section against the summary in the "Plot" section. If all the important actors are mentioned in the "Plot" section, it might make sense to dump the "Cast" section altogether. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 03:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved - I took a look and there are no actors mentioned in the "Cast" section that weren't being mentioned in the "Plot" section so I commented out the "Cast" section altogether. Thank you for your suggestion. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 18:50, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk) 15:48, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I want to get your thoughts on a possible page title of "Jud Süss (1940 film)" ... although after the ß (ess-zed) is explained in the text, I don't have a preference in whether to use it in the text. It's a somewhat thorny issue ... 20 years ago, serious copyeditors were generally adamant about allowing only a few accent marks, no other non-English diacritics and characters, generally in text but especially in titles and headlines. Chicago has loosened up a bit recently ... but I can't figure out yet how far this new tolerance for strange letters (strange to most English-speakers) has progressed; different guides say different things. Thoughts? - Dank (push to talk) 15:48, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ugh... this whole question about "ss" vs. "ß" is a can of worms. I have opened this can, eaten the worms and now have an upset stomach. Earlier versions of this article had a mish-mash of inconsistent usage wrt ß and umlauts. As I worked to regularize the usage, I had some doubts about the best way to handle some issues so I posted a query on WT:GERMANY. The discussion can be found here. In brief, I was given specific advice regarding the spelling of the names Malte Jaeger and Werner Krauss (no umlaut, no ß). I was also informed that there is no consensus and indeed a fairly gnarly difference of opinion regarding the use of diacritical marks in article titles. I was advised not to try to form a consensus regarding "ss" vs. "ß" in article titles because it would just increase the already existing disruption. Note that, if we were to get rid of both the umlaut and the ß, we would wind up with "Jud Suess" which is really the least used of the various ways to spell this name. If there is a strong opinion that this article should be titled "Jud Süss" instead of "Jud Süß", I could accede to it although I think I would want to get the opinion of editors at WP:GERMANY first before finalizing anything. For what it's worth, my rationale for the current article title is that "Jew Süss" is the title of the 1934 British film and "Jud Süß" is the title of the 1940 film that is the subject of this article. This more or less reflects usage in the sources although there is not always a consistent usage and "Jud Süss" does appear although not as frequently as "Jud Süß". Had enough? Have the worms given you an upset stomach as well? --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 18:50, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's a tough one. Here are a few ngrams from books.google.com: Jud Süß (no hits!) vs. Jud Suss vs. Jud Suess, dass vs. daß, heißt vs. heisst. ß seems to be losing, despite the inevitable presence of German text in some of those hits. My sense is that most copyeditors are still opposed to characters that many English-speakers won't even be able to guess at, but characters where they're likely to guess the wrong pronunciation (such as Ł and Ř) are now okay. So ... is ß now okay because it might be mispronounced as a B? Not sure, but the ngrams seem to suggest we're not there yet. (ü is fine btw, AP Stylebook and Chicago have supported it for a long time.) - Dank (push to talk) 19:34, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hmmm... it seems that my memory did not serve me well. A quick glance at the first few pages of results from a Google Books search suggests that "Jud Süss" does in fact appear more frequently in English-language sources than "Jud Süß". (Google converts a search for "Jud Süß" into a search for both ""Jud Süß" and ""Jud Süss". I suspect I was confusing English-language sources with German-language sources. Based on this, I am more open to the idea of renaming both the article and the name of the title role throughout the article. If no one else puts an oar in, I will do this in the next few days. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 20:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Media review

Oppose for now on these issues. —Andrewstalk 23:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    • Thank you for your review. I confess I know very little about how to edit the metadata of image files. In particular, I need some help with figuring out how to add an English description to {{information}} of an image when there is already a German description. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 09:07, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For example, for this one, click on the icon on the topright corner, then go to the edit page (login before that) and add {{en|Description in English}} just before the German one:
{{Information
| Description = {{en|in English}} {{de|in German}}
...
--Z 09:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]


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