Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

Welcome to the no original research noticeboard
This page is for requesting input on possible original research. Ask for advice here regarding material that might be original research or original synthesis. Include links to the relevant article(s). Make an attempt to familiarize yourself with the no original research policy before reporting issues here. You can also post here if you are unsure whether the content is considered original research. Sections older than 28 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) If you mention specific editors, please notify them. You may use {{subst:NORN-notice}} to do so.
Additional notes: "Original research" includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. Such content is prohibited on Wikipedia. For volunteers wishing to mark a discussion resolved, use {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section.
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Use of outdated sources in"Development" sections of film articles?

The first half of the "Development" section of our article on Black Panther (film) relies fairly heavily on sources from the 1990s and mid-2000s, a decade or more before the actual film was even announced, and I kinda suspect the same is true for other similar pages (this article has apparently had essentially the same problem since at least 2008). While this kind of discussion provides interesting background to the film our article is actually about, it kinda feels like SYNTH to be doing so when the connection is not explicitly made by recent sources that were aware of the 2018 Ryan Coogler film.

Some of the citations in that section are recent, but the material that is cited only to 1990s sources is suspicious: should it be required that more recent sources giving that information in the context of background to the 2018 film be cited as well as the original 1990s sources?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:08, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

If there is a clear line of film rights/details from that far back to the present work, then it would make sense to include them (for example, there's been a planned live-action Akira movie in the hands of WB for around a decade, clearly all part of the same effort, so I would keep all that). But the stuff about a possible Black Panther from the 90s all seems like unrelated efforts outside of BP being a Marvel property; it might be worth briefly summarizing attempts to bring the character to the screen, but not treating it as the same development work. --Masem (t) 01:25, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

To add, I thin the Iron Man one seems fine; there does seem to be a thread connecting the 1990 idea to the first MCU film. And in that cases, as long as newer sources help support the line of logic, using the original 90s/00s sources to support that early development is completely fine. --Masem (t) 01:28, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Gajendra Singh Shekhawat

Lot of original contents without any reference in the article.

Do we treat the SPLC as a primary source

User:Seraphim System has placed a "non-primary source needed" tag on Nation of Islam[1] for the statement of fact "The Southern Poverty Law Center tracks the NOI as a hate group". This seems wrong and out of line with our definition, but since I've reverted his removal of the statement once when he removed it as primary (among other things) I'm bringing it here. Doug Weller talk 17:15, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

While we can source that SPLC catalogs the group as a hate group using the SPLC directly, we should be putting that in context of how broader consensus of sources sees the group. If there is non-fringe collection of opinions that the group is a hate group or related (which there does appear to be in the Criticism section), then noting the SPLC considers it such is reasonable, though it would be good to have a third-party point out too that SPLC calls it such (which there is [2]). This specific article is less a problem, but the hypothetical to worry about is that if no one else but the SPLC called a group a hate group, including the SPLC just because they say so would be a problem as a primary-only source. --Masem (t) 17:24, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this is being posted to OR/n - WP:OR is not the only issue with using primary. Another issue is establishing due weight, especially when a primary statement is given a prominent place in the LEDE - as Masem says above which I completely agree with including the SPLC just because they say so would be a problem as a primary-only source. It would be better to include a brief summary of the majority view of multiple WP:RS (especially for the LEDE)

However, looking over the Critiscm section, it does seem to include WP:OR - for example citing the SPLC, and then citing primary quotes from the Nation of Islam website in support. This section should probably be rewritten first, to follow the analysis of secondary sources, and the lede should summarize the main points.Seraphim System ^(talk) 21:11, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Kosovo: A Moment in Civilization

Kosovo: A Moment in Civilization is a film made by filmmaker Boris Malagurski and financed by Serbian govt agencies. The film is basically about Serbian cultural heritage within Kosovo and accuses the current Kosovo govt of failing to protect that heritage.

A response to the film from the present Kosovo PM's office, among other criticisms of the film says "The Kosovo prime minister's office also disputed the idea that Serb monuments and churches in Kosovo were Serbian property". source for PMs response here.

An editor added the text "though they are listed as Serbia's cultural heritage under UNESCO protection" as a 'reply' to the PM's remarks. I reverted giving as my edit reason "Improper use of a primary source ... being listed as Serbian heritage does not establish ownership and is not a response to the film". edit and revert here.

This was itself reverted, edit reason " Material is properly sourced, facts are facts". It is incidental to whether this content belongs in the film article, but in fact Unesco refers only to the specific named group of buildings as "Medieval Monuments in Kosovo", thereby side-stepping any issue of ownership, and makes clear that they are 'Serbian' in the sense that Serbia was the nominating country. It makes no comment at all about legal ownership of Serbian heritage in Kosovo.

I don't doubt the Unesco designation of these buildings, though it has little bearing on 'ownership' in the legal sense (as opposed to cultural ownership), but I claim it is OR as it seeks to refute the PM's response, rather than neutrally report responses to the film. If Unesco had issued some direct response to the film, that would be valid content, but this is clearly not the case here. The edit IMO is seeking to argue the rights and wrongs of "ownership", rather then neutrally report the film's claims and responses to the film.Pincrete (talk) 10:23, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Privacy, free expression, and transparency

Not sure this is the place for this, but:

This strikes me as less an encyclopedia article than it does a college undergraduate essay. Agree or disagree? If yes, it is salvageable? --Calton | Talk 00:54, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Privacy, free expression, and transparency. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:52, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Looks like part of a not-so-perfect plan that's been floating about to use free UNESCO sources to build articles with. I believe there's a Wikipedian in Residence or two involved, or at least they were at some point. As you can see, it doesn't always exactly produce FA quality material. GMG^talk 20:01, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I was not aware of that plan. Let's see if the creator says anything at the AfD. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Creating original images from self-reported commercial sites

Would appreciate it if someone can look at this file [3] used in the Haplogroup_T-M184 article. It appears to be an original image based on self-reported results from commercial sites FTDNA and Yfull (as per legend), and used in the article to illustrate unpublished content. Does the use of self-reported results from commercial sites to illustrate unpublished ideas constitute original research? Regards--Kzl55 (talk) 23:42, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Seems to me it's just as much OR when expressed as an image, as when put into text or tables. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:57, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

As is, it's OR - there's no exact link to the data supporting the image. It could be possible that if the data is presented in a textual tree structure (as images on Yfull suggest), translating that to a tree image is not OR (data can't be copyrighted), but that original data has to be clearly identified. --Masem (t) 00:02, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

It is apparently an illustration of self-reported results from the aforementioned commercial sites, i.e. not published content from RSs. I am in agreement on it being OR. I have explained the issue of it being OR to the author numerous times through rev summaries [4] but its going no where. Would removing the OR file from the article be a reasonable next step? Regards--Kzl55 (talk) 00:44, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

mentioned wrong history on bhumihar

history on bhumihar written on the article is not correct. the content is abusive and sprading a wrong message in the community so please give your attention on this topic because wikipedia common for collectin the information. so you should give your attention on the credibility of wekipedia.

i am giving you the genetic report of NCBI on bhumihar , which prove that bhumihar and brahmin have same genetic. thank you link:- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12959898

Professional Wrestling as a performing art

On the article professional wrestling an editor User:Galatz has repeatedly tried to show sources that do not refer to wrestling as a performing art and use a defintion of performing art in violation of WP:SYNTH stating that because it matches the definition I can't ask for a source. -Rainbowofpeace (talk) 14:00, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Per the given source [5] writers work on plots and storylines well in advance, and every match is another chapter in the story. Who wins and who loses is all in the script. It also says It's true that the plots are predetermined and the moves are choreographed. Its a script and its choreographed. Just because it doesnt use the term "performing arts" it doesn't mean that using that source is WP:SYNTH. this is all one source, not multiple as SYNTH would require. Per m-w ypes of art (such as music, dance, or drama) that are performed for an audience. There is no question that the source clearly shows its an art form, no different than a choreographed play. There is also no question its performed in front of an audience. - Galatz^Talk 14:17, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Actually, @Galatz:, WP:SYNTH does mean that "Just because it doesnt [sic] use the term "performing arts" ... that using that source is [synthesis]." The first sentence of that policy section says: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. emphasis added Your definition of performance art is from an online dictionary. Your description of wrestlers' and writers' cooperation is from an openly-edited web page. Neither says "wrestling is performance art" or anything like it. You are putting A+B together to say something neither explicitly says itself, which is textbook synthesis. Rainbowofpeace is correct in their assessment. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:16, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

I disagree, I am proving the definition of a word. If we were talking about a performance, and the person said its not a performance, showing the definition of the word is not SYNTH. The dictionary is not a source. - Galatz^Talk 23:35, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

My problem has never been with the word performance. Many forms of sports, arts and even vocations include performance. My problem is with the specific phrase "Performing (or Performance) Art". There is also nothing wrong with implying it is a performing art based on sources without outright saying it. For example the sources talk about storylines and costumes you could state the wrestlers perform with costumes to preset storylines. That implies what you want without outright saying something that isn't directly sourced.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 06:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

But if you issue isn't with the way I am defining the word, then per WP:ANALYSIS: Policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source. Isn't that exactly what I am doing? - Galatz^Talk 13:40, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

No, A)Dictionaries are not secondary sources. Please see WP:DICTS which shows using a dictionary for a source is incredibly problematic and I don't think in this case could be used as a secondary source. B)You can post just about anything within reason on wikipedia until it is challenged. I challenge it on WP:SYNTH based on "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not EXPLICITLY stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not EXPLICITLY stated by the source.". In short, using the dictionary definition of Performing Arts is at the very least problematic if allowed at all and secondly your argument is synth because you are combining multiple sources and parts of single sources to come to a conclusion that is not directly stated within your source or sources. Also remember WP:VERIFYOR states "Wikipedia's content is determined by previously published information rather than by the personal beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. The policy says that all material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, needs a reliable source". -Rainbowofpeace (talk) 05:25, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I specifically said I am not using it as a source, I have only brought it up on talk pages to avoid confusion as to what the term we are discussing actually means. It is not listed as a ref anywhere in the article. - Galatz^Talk 11:25, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• @Galatz: - I don't think what you've done is so SYNTHy or ORy, however this - Performance and Professional Wrestling academic book by Routledge (devoted to the subject of wrestling as a performing art) would be a stronger source.Icewhiz (talk) 07:40, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Icewhiz that is much closer to be not WP:SYNTH Listen I like you guys and I'm only trying to improve Wikipedia. Here: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/991806-realism-in-pro-wrestling-whats-in-a-finisher http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1009620-realism-in-pro-wrestling-the-oftently-forgoten-primal-fiction and possibly http://www.hellokids.com/c_16471/reading-learning/reports-information/sports/professional-wrestling although its a bit more questionable given the audience its written for. If you use the book by Icewhiz and these sources in place of the sources you currently have on the page I will drop the case if I'm allowed to do so. I admit that much like you I have my own biases. I can tell from your talk page Galatz you are passionate about Professional Wrestling. I'm also passionate but for Performing Arts. I still stand by by statement that your use of your first sources was WP:SYNTH but my goal isn't to defend my opinion but to protect Wikipedia. I therefore submit this as a solution to you Galatz. Thank you for the debate and your patience with me. Happy Editing-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 09:30, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Bleacher report is not a WP:RS for professional wrestling, see WP:PW/Sources - Galatz^Talk 13:28, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Described by association and probable original research

I would appreciate extra eyes at a controversial article:Tabarnia The sources used are in Spanish or Catalan.

the problem is with the contents of this edit to the lead of the article where it is claimed that the Tabarnia movement is supported by some associations. The edit seems biased to me. The sources don't directly state such support. just support for one of its demonstrations against the independence of Catalonia from Spain. The edit also claims that Societat Civil Catalana (an anti separatist platform) is a right-wing organization when they define themselves as independent and according to the cited source have in their boards of directors politicians from both sides of the political spectrum, including various from the Socialists' Party of Catalonia. When I told filiprino that making that claim was original research and misrepresentation of the sources he responded: "Just look at what they do, not who are they or in what political party are some of their members". Another IP editor tried to fix the article by reverting his edits but gave up to avoid an edit war. I removed the edit myself trying to explain the reasons with edit summaries first and then at the talk page (see here) but had little success in reasoning with the editor. Help will be much appreciated as I would also prefer to distance myself if possible. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 21:58, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I just noticed similar issues at the article on Societat Civil Catalana itself that seems to have been edited extensively by the same user (sample edit). --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 11:51, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

To summarize, the two questions relating to original research are:

1. If a source states that organization X supports one event of organization Y, would making the wider claimi in the lead of organization Y that it is supported by organization X (not just the event) be original research? (without clarifying that the support was for just that event. The source does not claim support of the organization itself, just the event, to defend the edit the author claimed: "supporting an event of other organization means supporting that organization and its ideas, because the demonstration is an expression of the ideas of the caller")
2. If a source states that some members of an organization have a political inclination (right-wing) would adding right-wing as label for that organization be original research? (no source makes that direct claim. The organization in question claims in its own page to be politically independent and the sources state as well that some of the members of its ruling body are from a left wing party. at Talk:Tabarnia#Filiprino's_recent_edits the author of the edit justified his edit referring to one of this members by claims that "The truth is that he was never left-wing as was never Joseph Stallin. Having a member in the ruling body from the PSC means nothing. We know PSC/PSOE has "tránsfugas", people sympathizing with right-wing people and political parties")

Comments will be appreciated. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Since there have been no answers let me provide three sources that clearly state that Societat Civil Catalana is ruled by representatives of the three major political parties in Catalonia that oppose the separatists:

• Público:Societat Civil Catalana "cuenta en su junta directiva con políticos y militantes del PSC y de Ciutadans, entre otros." Its board of directors has politicians and militants from the PSC(Socialists' Party of Catalonia) and from Citizens among others.
• Cronica Global: "La primera junta directiva de la entidad mostraba ese delicado juego de contrapesos. Josep Ramon Bosch —cercano al PP— era el presidente, y le acompañaban en la vicepresidencia primera Joaquim Coll —vinculado al PSC" The first board of directors showed that delicate balance of power Josep Ramon Bosch close to PP(People's Party of Catalonia) was the president accompanied a vice-president by Joaquim Coll linkded to PSC(Socialists' Party of Catalonia).
• Elmón: "Les tres vicepresidències seran ocupades per José Domingo, exdiputat al Parlament per Ciutadans, Alex Ramos i Miriam Tey." The three vice-presidencies will by given to José Domingo ex member of parliament by Citizens, Alex Ramos(PSC) and Miriam Tey(PP).

The second source above also states that the European Citizen's Prize given by the European Parliament was possible due to cooperation of politicians from PSC, PP and C’s in Brussels ("Un galardón que legitimó (y dio prestigio) la labor de la entidad y que hubiese sido imposible lograr sin la actuación conjunta de los representantes de PSC, PP y C’s en Bruselas") --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 08:25, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

English Monarch Reign Dates

Academic reference works such as the Handbook of British Chronologypp.30-31(Frdye et al, 1986) and the Handbook of Dates (Cheney, 2000) date the reigns of English Monarchs from the coronation of the monarch from 1066-1272. In 1272 the principle of immediate succession was introduced and reigns were then dated from the day following the death of the predecessor in 1272-1483 and from the day of the death of the predecessor consistently from 1547 onwards. Some editors are convinced that the later rule of immediate succession has always applied but have not provided a source for this claim. I believe it is original research to apply a rule that only existed later to an earlier period, especially when it is contradicted by reliable sources. Am I correct in thinking this? A RfC has now been opened at Talk:List of English monarchs‎#Proposal to change reign dates and the previous discussion was at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject English Royalty#Reign dates. Jhood1 (talk) 22:17, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Jhood1 Given the sources provided, and as long as there are no reliable sources to claim otherwise, applying the immediate succession rule before 1547 would be original research (unless a specific reference by a reliable source could be found for that particular coronation). --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 07:29, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Noting that this seems to be spreading to several different forums now.

It would be original research to take some pattern and apply it to cases where no source has applied it. This is true if the pattern is date of death of the previous monarch or date of coronation or anything else. To avoid original research, your best option is to find published dates for each monarch - in this topic this should not be difficult to do.

I have in front of me a 1991 copy of the Collins Gem Kings and Queens - a reliable source - that gives dates for the beginning of each reign that are the same as the date of death of the previous monarch. I do not for a moment believe that this is the only such source. It is obvious that no original research is required to lift dates from such a source and use them in our articles. That it may be a style that your sources do not agree with does not change that. Kahastok talk 08:02, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree, my comment above, as I said, would only apply in case that there is no source for the coronation of a particular Monarch. If there is a reliable source as the one cited by Kahastok for a particular Monarch, it should be used, otherwise the ones mentioned above by Jhood1 would be valid. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 08:40, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Kahastok, for providing a source. Could you please write up a list of the reign dates given in the Collins Gem so that we can compare them to other sources? Also does the Collins Gem give a reason for the dates that it uses? I still believe that the reign dates given in academic sources would be preferable where they conflict, but clearly I was wrong to believe that there was not a source that supported the other dates. Jhood1 (talk) 12:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

The differences from this revision (which generally lists date of accession = date of predecessor's death) for the period from the conquest to 1547 are:

Event	Collins Gem	Wikipedia
Accession of William I	14 October 1066	25 December 1066
Accession of William II	10 September 1087	9 September 1087
Accession of Matilda	April 1141	7 April 1141
End of Matilda's reign	(None given; reign length 7 months)	1 November 1141
Death of John	18 October 1216	19 October 1216
Accession of Henry III	18 October 1216	19 October 1216
Reign of Louis	Not included	Included
Accession of Edward I	20 November 1272	16 November 1272
Abdication of Edward II	20 January 1327	24 January 1327
Accession of Richard II	22 June 1399	21 June 1399
First accession of Henry VI	1 September 1422	31 August 1422
Accession of Henry VIII	22 April 1509	21 April 1509

The book does not specify a particular system, it just gives literal dates. That's the sort of source that you need if you want to avoid original research - but for monarchs of England I think it's also the sort of source that should be trivial to find in any relevant museum gift shop, let alone proper academic book shops. In fact, I got this book at the gift shop in the Tower of London. Kahastok talk 13:30, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

I've copied the table to Talk:List of English monarchs‎#Proposal to change reign dates and added reign dates listed in the other sources. Could you look over the Collins list to make sure it is correct. Thanks.Jhood1 (talk) 20:07, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

OK, I have made a correction to Henry I, otherwise they are all correct. Kahastok talk 21:11, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Dirty Subsidy

Dirty Subsidy is a brand-new article and the product of one of Wiki-Ed's programs, and it appears to be not an overview of a existing concept but a college paper promoting a neologism. The top hit on Google for this term is the article itself -- which is only one day old, so already a bad sign. --Calton | Talk 08:45, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dirty Subsidy unless someone thinks it should be speedied, in which case go ahead. A Google search strongly suggests the term is original research, certainly not one used in economics or indeed any academic literature. Doug Weller talk 13:29, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Atari Jaguar original research and coi

I am asking for advice on a user who gives the impression, through edits over a series of articles, to be using OR. They also have a COI issue which they refuse to address but I will take that up separately.

I have deleted numerous additions they have made as, on investigating the citations, there is no, or very low quality evidence to support their assertions.

Article in question is here.

Here is an example deletion I made to article, please note the justifications I have given. There has been in excess of 20k of text I have deleted from this one article

I raised the issue in the associated talk -

His response to this was effectively "Meh" and an attempt to claim I had an agenda. This is true in one way, I have an agenda to correct blatent errors.

The same concerns on OR and COI were raised in a different article, as well as associated talk , and were also denied with no evidence offered.

When I corrected errors in first article the same user then went to the referenced titles articles and inserted the deleted citations and assertions in those.

I have also noticed they have deleted the external tag for the cancelled games article while inserting it in all other games he believes existed so as to remove it from the category.

References

Hulk Hogan's Rock 'n' Wrestling

TBBC is insistent on adding a line into the Hulk Hogan's Rock 'n' Wrestling article which is unsupported. They are stating that every wrestler who appeared on the show has been elected to the WWE Hall of Fame however when I removed their WP:OR, they added it back with just a generic link to all WWE wrestler pages which I again removed. They attempted to add it back with [6] however I explained to them that this is the exact definition of WP:SYNTH. They are refusing the discuss the issue and are ignoring comments I have left for them on their talk page. They have been blocked for similar styles of edit warring before. - Galatz^Talk 13:57, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I have indeed discussed the issue with you, cited it like you said but you said it reverts ANOTHER Wikipedia policy. So that just makes me feel that I can't follow one Wikipedia policy without violating another. Incidentally no other user has reverted my edits, just you--TBBC (talk) 14:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are trying to say, that was terribly worded. What policy are you following while violating another. You are simply just violating policies, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, WP:3RR. What policy are you following by adding information not supported by the references? - Galatz^Talk 14:21, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I add sources (like the official link to the WWE Hall of Fame website which shows all the superstars to appear on Hulk Hogan's Rock 'N' Wrestling)But then you say that goes against this WP:SYNTH policy. So I figured I can't follow one policy without violating another.--TBBC (talk) 14:25, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

No, that does not support your claim. You are sourcing it to something that does not support what you are writing. Therefore you are NOT following WP:RS by linking to that. You need a second source to put the two pieces together, which is WP:SYNTH, as I have explained to you multiple times. - Galatz^Talk 14:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Well the official website of the WWE hall of fame also has a site dedicated to the cartoon, so how about just add the WWE website as a whole--TBBC (talk) 14:29, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Nope, it does not work that way. - Galatz^Talk 14:34, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

See, and there's no website that can be considered a reliable source that'll state that. And yet everyone who looks at that page will see every WWE employee to be featured in this cartoon are in the WWE hall of fame, but YOU (no one else) are so insistent we just ignore that fact.--TBBC (talk) 14:36, 19 April 2018 (UTC)