Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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Andrevan

Participants have voluntarily agreed to notify editors of 1RR violations, and wait before escalating. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 23:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Andrevan

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 09:35, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Andrevan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel_articles#ARBPIA_General_Sanctions (1RR)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

06:05, 16 December 2023 wholesale (and wholly disruptive) revert
07:48, 16 December 2023 revert of this

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Opened a past enforcement thread on the topic here

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Blatant 1RR violation, declined they made two reverts

He is additionally just straight up making up what a source does or does not say to justify the blatantly disruptive wholesale revert above, claiming here that this FT article does not support the material it was cited for. That is, and Im trying my best not to say lie here, not true. And it is very difficult to productively discuss content when somebody says something so blatantly untrue. nableezy - 09:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that you are not responsible for your reverts because you are doing them on behalf of somebody who requested they be done because they cannot do it themselves is a curious defense, but Ill leave it to the admins to decide how seriously they want to take it. This is both a blatant 1RR violation (in what world is completely removing something not a revert anyway), and blatantly tendentious editing. I invite anybody to actually read the FT article and see if what I quoted from it does not appear in the article or if Andre is being honest in his portrayal of it. nableezy - 09:48, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He self reverted one edit, being dishonest about the sources and tendentious editing is still an issue in the first revert but up to the admins if they would like to deal with something a bit more involved than counting to two. I personally think that first revert and the dishonesty about the sources is much more pernicious than any number of reverts but that’s just me. nableezy - 10:01, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Andre, I find lying about sources to be much more obnoxious. FT contains Campaign group Amnesty International documented in detail five cases of air strikes wiping out entire families, saying the attacks should be investigated as potential war crimes and you here say "It is true that the WP:HEADLINE says How the loss of entire families is ravaging the social fabric of Gaza. Intense bombardment has wiped out multiple generations of Palestinians but this fact does not appear in the rest of the article." You want to call that an instance of reasonable people disagreeing you can, I will just say that is not, uh, reasonable. nableezy - 10:11, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are a number of issues in Andre's blanket revert. Among the things he removed was material on the healthcare system collapse, never discussed on talk, material on the number of journalists killed, never discussed on talk, material on early reports of atrocities later proven to be false, never discussed on talk, material on the spreading of those false claims by politicians and media, never discussed on talk. And the material on the killing of multi-generational families. All of this removed material was about things opposed to his POV, as he has made abundantly clear, and all of it well sourced and all of it removed with a token hand wave to a policy that does not support it. But he did self-revert the 1RR violation, so yall do what you want. nableezy - 10:32, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And Ill also note, given Andre's statement that I obviously have a POV, well we all do. But I dont say things like You clearly sympathize more with Hamas' POV when editors attempt to follow our sources and not tread the POV that Andre likewise obviously has. nableezy - 17:27, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

EL C, the first revert listed is a labeled revert, the second one I gave the edit being reverted. The problem with AN3 is that involved editors coming to the defense of an editor they are aligned with can muddy the waters in the single section, as opposed to being in their own section where an admin can ignore the noise of partisan editors trying to distort the history. nableezy - 19:29, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that’s why I included the diff for the second revert, it is a straight revert of that addition. The first one is labeled a revert as restoring a prior version and wiping out all intervening edits is a revert by definition. nableezy - 20:03, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

El C, this is a revert of this, and this diff shows the first revert restoring a prior edition, reverting all the intervening edits. nableezy - 20:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sideswipe9th, if Andre hadnt declined to self-revert already I would have waited for him to do so. But he already did. I should wait to report whats already been denied? Doesnt make a ton of sense to me but ok. And also, it was clear that the edit request was a revert. I do not understand how people think that a straight removal of content is ever not a revert. It is definitionally reversing, in whole or in part, another editor's edit. I do not understand how somebody can claim that removing a sentence is ever not a revert. Do they think it was immaculately conceived in the text? No, an editor put it there. And when you remove it, you are reverting that editor. nableezy - 22:08, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Andre, the POV espoused was Amnesty International's, you claimed that was supporting Hamas' POV. I dont say you are supporting Itamar Ben-Gvir's POV when we disagree. nableezy - 22:23, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Sideswipe9th except Andre here also claimed the edit was not a revert. They only self-reverted later, its difficult to tell because he did not date his responses here. His initial response was straight denial. And lets dispense with this oh I was fulfilling an edit request nonsense. We take responsibility for our edits when we make them, saying oh I was just making a revert that somebody else asked for does not in any way relieve you of the responsibility of the revert. Otherwise you are opening up a whole new game to be played, in which say an editor asks a friend who doesnt edit here to request such and such be added or removed in an edit request so that they can get around the revert restrictions. And I still dont see how anybody can ever call the straight removal of a sentence not a revert, literally ever. nableezy - 22:31, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish if it helps, as the 1RR violation has been self-reverted, you can consider this withdrawn unless you would like to examine any unclean hands issues. nableezy - 23:04, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure SFR, I will be more comprehensive in my 1RR violation notices. And I agree to the rest as well. nableezy - 23:39, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Andrevan

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Andrevan

Hang on, the 2nd edit is not a "revert," as I explained in my edit summary, I was fulfilling an edit request; I asked for the diff here [1] but this report was opened before that was provided. I did not know that was a revert, and the edit I was supposedly "reverting" was made 24 hours before my edit. Is it a requirement that I must check to see if I am accidentally reverting a 2nd time when I fulfill an edit request?
See [2]
I can no longer "undo" my edit, as there have been intervening edits after that one.
And regarding the FT article [3] I have no idea what Nableezy is going on about here. It is true that the WP:HEADLINE says How the loss of entire families is ravaging the social fabric of Gaza. Intense bombardment has wiped out multiple generations of Palestinians but this fact does not appear in the rest of the article.
Nableezy, a revert means undoing an edit. I did not know that 1RR in this topic area means that any change is considered a revert even if it was not undoing an edit consciously. However, if that is the case, I will attempt to manually restore the text I removed due to the edit request.
I have restored text to the effect that Nableezy is claiming I was reverting, even though as I said, this text had been added so that it was beyond a page past the history, and I did not know that it was a revert per se. [4]
Clearly Nableezy has a very strong POV in this area, but he's being a bit obnoxious in my view. I am not dishonest about sources. Reasonable people can reasonably disagree in their interpretation of material and what is appropriate in the encyclopedia. I am not misrepresenting any sources, and these accusations are borderline incivil.
As I just responded on the talk page, there are still problems with the text. The text I reverted did not contain proper attribution. It also used the text from the headline instead of the body text, which was weaker. I stand by the edit, I did not lie about sources, and I frankly am offended that nableezy would so quickly claim that I had lied about the sources, which shows a serious lack of good faith and collegiality.
User:Iennes violated 1RR with his recent edits, which were not NPOV, and also added some fun errors like the text "the Israeli Department Forces." Not an improvement. I also think the recent Al Jazeera piece about the healthcare collapse might be a bit of hyperbole as well, a similar violation of WP:HEADLINE. the actual text is, "Gaza near collapse." It's also WP:NOTNEWS WP:RECENTISM. I tried to google it, and only AJ is reporting that there is a collapse that has taken place. ABC writes, [5] "completely collapsing" with overcrowded hospitals and few medical supplies amid the ongoing Israel-Hamas war, according to the World Health Organization and Doctors Without Borders. again, not in wikivoice, attributed, and in the process of collapsing - not collapsed. I am being accused of tendentious editing but this edit was bad and lacks nuance. It should be obvious by inspection it did not pass muster. He also added the statement that more journalists had been killed in Gaza than in 20 years in Vietnam - but he ignored the fact that this was a total including the journalists killed by Hamas in Israel, not just in Gaza. Another problem with these bad bold edits by a user quoting nonsensical policies that rightfully should have been reverted for discussion per WP:BRD.
Oy, Iskandar, I know you can have a manual revert without pressing the button, that is not my point. I'm talking about intent. If you look at my talk page, several users were happy to accuse me of edit warring, which in my book requires intention, and did not provide any diffs of the original edit that was I reverting, which again, was not today. At any rate I have now manually undone my non-revert revert. I do think this new edit request system is something we'll have to get used to. I thought I was being helpful by fulfilling a reasonable request which I still think was a reasonable one, and I was not edit warring by doing that, because I did not see the edit it was reverting in the last page of changes.
SFR, given that the diffs were not provided to me to self-revert prior to this AE being opened, how much time elapsed before I complied and self-reverted? And do think the level of invective and bad faith, i.e. accusing me of lying about sources and using a pretext to revert things I don't like, is acceptable discourse? See [6]
I'm probably over word count but I just want to clarify the diff that Nableezy cited where I referred to "Hamas' POV." I was referring to Hamas' POV on the subject at hand, namely whether or not they use human shields. Please see the edit I was referring to and the revert by another user: [7] and their statements [8] [9] which supports what I said, that the other user was favoring Hamas' POV on the human shield issue. Also, I think SFR that maybe this article should indeed go to consensus required, because there seems to be an attempt to add all the breaking news stories directly to this article without giving them at all a chance to be discussed, and any editor who disagrees or who wants to thoughtfully workshop the exact language and text, as is normally done on this project, is treated like a POVwarrior and repeatedly accused of lying and tendentiousness. I assume the diffs of this are obvious but I will flesh em out if you want, and I'm definitely over word count now, so let me know if I should just erase this part.
I am in agreement with your proposal, SFR. Andre🚐 23:37, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Iskandar323

The explanation from Andrevan that they were wholly unaware of what a revert is and thought it pertained solely to edits performed with the undo button is uncompelling given their long and extensive tenure. The same applies to the notion of not comprehending that it is incumbent on editors to check that they are not accidentally reverting on a page with revert restrictions. To answer their question: yes, 24 hours is just about the bare minimum period you should look back over to ensure that you are not reverting beyond 1RR. I dare say that on most pages it is incumbent on editors to look back much further than that. The more dramatic and frequent your edits, the more caution you just take. This is par for the course – a course that Andrevan should know well by now. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:10, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coretheapple

Andrevan is correct. He was responding to an edit request, which can be found here. Editors who make good faith edits should not be subjected to this kind of trumped up "gotcha" accusation. I am fairly new to this article and subject area. I have in my eleven years on this project edited in other controversial areas, and I have never seen 1RR deployed as a bludgeon in this fashion. Indeed, as I was composing this, I see to no great surprise that nableezy used the same tactic against me [10]. No, my earlier edit was not a revert. I added words in the earlier edit cited (the most recent one was a revert). There was no intent to revert a blessed thing in the earlier edit and I most certainly did not. These accusations, raising 1RR in a hair-trigger fashion, have a chilling effect and should not be tolerated.Coretheapple (talk) 16:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding SPECIFICO's and Beyond My Ken's comments, I just wanted to interject, as a movie buff, that "Gentleman's Agreement" was a 1947 film and novel, so I imagine that is what SPECIFICO was referring to. (re the origins of the title phrase) However,the use of that term here is certainly unobjectionable. I couldn't agree more with SPECIFICO's general point. Since I began editing this article barely a week ago, on Dec. 11.and despite no previous interaction with any other editor on that page as far as I know, I've been called a "liar," a "hypocrite" a "bad faith editor" by three different editors and subjected to a sarcastic impugning of my motives. AGF is completely out the window on that talk page, and NPA is treated like a suggestion, not one of the Five Pillars. The hostile atmosphere on the talk age repels new editors, I think deliberately so, and needs to be addressed on a continual basis. I think more administrator oversight of the page is desirable and am glad to see that there has been NPA enforcement. Coretheapple (talk) 12:41, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Drsmoo

This is frivolous and content based. I’m hoping there can be some kind of WP:Trout over bringing content disputes to AE. Drsmoo (talk) 18:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Valjean

Aspersions and unconstructive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Wow! That's quite the "violent" screed from Nableezy. I don't see an ounce of good faith there, only myriad, rather forced, attempts to find something wrong with Andrevan, a regular Gish gallop:

"The Gish gallop is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm their opponent by providing an excessive number of arguments with no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments. Gish galloping prioritizes the quantity of the galloper's arguments at the expense of their quality."

If anything, this was an innocent error, with no edit warring, and was fixed. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:21, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, let me word it more specifically. (I assumed that anyone reading my comment would analyze Nableezy's comments, but alas.) So calling out personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith ("lying" is normally a sanctionable accusation) is not allowed at AE? Hmmmm....these are new times. Even at AE, one should AGF and not accuse another editor of lying, especially when other editors don't see it that way. Lying implies an intent to deceive. That's why we avoid the word here. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish, I really like your resolution. Let's get back to editing. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Iennes

Andrevan wrote in their statement above that I "User:Iennes added some fun errors like the text "the Israeli Department Forces." Instead of rectifying a mistake and explaining it in an edit summary or writing a comment on a talk page, Andrevan reverted all my edits in a click [11]. This is just pure censorship. I added content showing that the "beheaded babies" story was false and how it was built with mainstream media, I did a work of research. [12]. Reverting sourced historical content concerning such a sensitive issue, says a lot about the user, as in anyone's book, "beheaded 40 children = barbarism". In that section which relates how misinformation is created on purpose, the reader can see the chronology of events and ponder how a democracy can invent such a thing. so, I am asking Andrevan to collaborate with users and reverting no more sourced content without explaining it. A collaborative work is first improving, and not reverting for the sake of reverting. Correcting yes but certainly not erasing relevant material. Iennes (talk) 20:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sideswipe9th

Chiming in here as I'm uninvolved. I'm in two minds here. While Nableezy is right that there is a 1RR violation here, I don't think that's the full story. The edit request (PermaLink) that Andrevan was responding to was not obviously a revert. Yes editors who are responding to edit requests are responsible for the edits they make, but even in a 1RR how many editors are running Who Wrote That? to find when a sentence was added or last changed?

Now look at the sequence of events on Andrevan's talk page. At 07:43 UTC Iennes issues a {{uw-ew}} warning. Andrevan responds less than a minute later, expressing confusion. Two hours later at 09:28 UTC Nableezy issues a custom 1RR notice asking Andrevan to self-revert, and then a minute later interprets Andrevan's confusion towards Iennes as a refusal to self-revert. Andrevan responds that same minute again expressing confusion, and Nableezy instead of responding files this AE case and provides a link to it. At no stage in this exchange was Andrevan given a link to the diff where they violated the restriction.

Despite this, Andrevan still self reverted the edit request removal once it became clearer what edit was the 1RR violation. Honestly, I don't think Andrevan should be sanctioned here. Yes he should be more careful when responding to an edit request, but this seems like a simple and honest mistake. Nableezy and Iennes both need a trouting at minimum here. I feel like this whole set of events could have been avoided if both of them had been more communicative when explaining the issue, and asked for a good faith self-revert. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:31, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy, I think there's two valid interpretations of Andrevans response to Iennes, and I can see why you're reading it as a refusal. However I think that's the less charitable interpretation of the remark. Personally, I read it as confusion over why Andrevan's been issued with a uw-ew warning, and I think if either you or Iennes had taken five or ten minutes to explain how it was a revert resulting in a 1RR violation, something that you had to do anyway for this filing, Andrevan would likely have obliged by self-reverting. People make mistakes, and they should be given the information and a reasonable opportunity to self-correct them, rather than jumping straight for sanctions. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:26, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm usually loathe to reply directly to other editors in AE filings, as it often brings more heat than light. But Nableezy, I still wouldn't read Andrevan's first sentence here as an outright refusal to self-revert. I see an explanation for why Andrevan doesn't think it was a revert, and asking for clarity on what constitutes one. If I'm being charitable, they're again expressing confusion. Despite the confusion, Andrevan still self reverted about 25 minutes after this report was opened. Had you instead of reporting here taken ten minutes to explain the situation on Andrevan's talk page, it would have had the same result; self-reversion of the edit request.

I know AE is an important tool when editing in a CTOP area. I've had to use it more than once when editing in GENSEX, AP2, and BLP. But an equally important tool is knowing how to defuse and de-escalate a situation. Explaining to an editor how they've breached 1RR while asking them to self revert is a good way to defuse a situation. Now sometimes it will not work, sometimes you are dealing with a bad faith editor. But a lot of the time you're dealing with a good faith editor who has simply made a mistake, and making the effort to find out which is which is never wasted. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SFR I think your proposal is a good one. I also wonder if it might be helpful to add a sentence or two of guidance to WP:EW, about how it can be helpful to provide explanatory diffs when issuing a warning over a breach, especially in less obvious situations. The idea being to enshrine this as best practice. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:47, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SPECIFICO

Here's how I see nableezy interacting less than a day after the proposed optimistic resolution. I don't think that tone is acceptable in this topic area. BTW "gentleman's agreement", at least in the US, has rather dark implications. SPECIFICO talk 19:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

I do not believe that "gentlemen's agreement" ("an arrangement or understanding which is based upon the trust of both or all parties, rather than being legally binding") has any "dark implications" in the US, depending, of course, on who the "gentlemen" involved are. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Andrevan

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

And one advantage the WP:AN3 format has over WP:AE is its Previous version reverted to parameter, which makes it immediately clear whether the earlier diff of the two in the WP:1RR complaint is a revert, or merely an edit. El_C 19:11, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy, I know that I'd find it helpful to also feature it at WP:AE, at least for any WP:1RR complaint that isn't very straight-forward; with that parameter attached, say, in parenthesis alongside the earlier of the two diffs. As sometime finding the diff proving WP:RV in the revision history could be challenging to outside reviewers. El_C 19:48, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Nableezy, I'm not seeing it. But if it were added as I suggested above, there'd be no way I'd miss it. El_C 20:13, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's pretty clearly a 1RR violation, and again wish that there was a standard practice of self-reverting immediately when challenged and moving to discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A reminder that AE is not a venue to opine about editors or argue content. It is a venue for statements pertaining to the parties supported with evidence. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:58, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Andrevan, to expand I think that the standard practice should be to leave a talk page message with the diffs of the 1rr violation and wait 12 hours or until it's clear the editor is still editing without addressing before any escalation takes place. I haven't had a lot of time to review all of the everything here (which is becoming a lot) and forming a full opinion, I was just expressing my wish for how things worked in practice. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:09, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I know we're pretty lax with word limits here, but keep in mind most of us admins have day jobs and lives outside of Wikipedia. There's already a lot to review here without adding a tomats of additional text. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:59, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so before I close this as withdrawn, since we're all here, is it possible to get a Gentleman's agreement to provide a notification to someone who violated 1rr with the diffs, and if there's any ambiguity diffs demonstrating why it's a revert. After that wait 12-24 hours unless they're continuing to edit before escalating? And in the flip side of that coin if someone points out a 1rr violation fully self-revert, then worry about contesting the issue?

These articles move fast, there's an enormous amount of contested content, there are a lot of different POVs (both from editors and sources), and the situation keeps developing. I don't want to start dropping consensus required on these articles, but it's starting to seem like the most effective way to handle it. If there's a chance that we can work together to avoid that, I'd much prefer that.

Also, please knock off the accusations of lying, even if you're dancing around the edges of it, the accusations of weaponizing unless there's actual evidence to back it up, and generally the personalized back and forth. It makes it tremendously more difficult to actually pick out misbehavior, inflates discussions that are already too large, and makes it far more difficult for people to compromise on content in the future. Hell, this section itself is already nearly 3500 words. No admins are going to be able to, or want to, sort through all of this and all of the content and other discussions involved in a regular basis.

So, @Andrevan, Nableezy, Iskandar323, Drsmoo, Valjean, Iennes, and Sideswipe9th: and anyone else out there reading at home, does that sound reasonable for 1rr moving forward, and can we at least try to scale back the hostility? Otherwise we're heading down a road to consensus required and ibans. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:35, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coretheapple

Participants have voluntarily agreed to notify editors of 1RR violations, and wait before escalating. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 23:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Coretheapple

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 16:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Coretheapple (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel_articles#ARBPIA_General_Sanctions (1RR)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

15:33, 16 December 2023 revert of this among other edits
16:20, 15 December 2023 revert of this

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

N/A

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

N/A, 1RR is a general sanction that only requires the edit notice and notice on the talk page

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This material has been repeatedly inserted in to the lead, despite the obvious lack of consensus for it on the talk page (Talk:2023 Israel–Hamas war § Hamas denial of sexual violence in lede)

Requested they self-revert, did not answer on their talk but pointed to their statement above (here) nableezy - 16:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You added material that was previously challenged and removed. That is definitionally a revert, and you know it was challenged as you have been involved in that talk page discussion. It was a revert, and you have performed two within 24 hours, and that is a red line violation of the editing restrictions. nableezy - 17:25, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Partial reverts are still reverts, and you just admitted to a partial revert. The correct response to somebody raising a 1RR violation is to self-revert, not dissemble about the injustice of it all. I want to revert more than 1 time a day too, but I do not. nableezy - 17:36, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49, I have generally been against adminshopping in which an editor reaches out directly to an admin outside of cases where an admin has dealt with an issue that has repeated itself. I dont really think it appropriate to directly request an admin deal with something. But I do dispute that only a warning should result when a 1RR violation is not self-reverted, that should result in a block, maybe a page block, or a topic ban. I always offer an opportunity to self-revert, but if that is refused then the user is taking advantage of the restrictions that block others from reverting their improper revert and that should not be allowed. I was under the impression that AE is a better venue than AN3 for arbitration imposed edit restriction violations, including the 1RR. nableezy - 17:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coretheapple, you dont get to pick which revert to self-revert, you should self-revert your last revert, not give yourself another revert by self-reverting a prior revert after the fact. I was sanctioned for a similar sequence. nableezy - 18:13, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, the self revert also is still a revert, he removed material that was added here, the denial by Hamas, and they know that is a revert as they have been disputing its addition on the talk page. This is blatantly bad faith editing and it should be sanctioned. nableezy - 19:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, not everything, but when you remove what others have added or add what others have removed yes that is a revert. You really going to pretend you are not reverting the inclusion of the Hamas denial? Ok, well then that’s a WP:CIR issue too. nableezy - 19:52, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

BK, in my view a 1RR report should essentially result in an ultimatum, self-revert or be blocked. They have declined to self-revert, or they self-reverted while performing another revert, maintaining the 1RR violation. That, to me, is decidedly unfair. We all operate under the same rules here, and the people who are breaking them are able to impose their will on these articles not through consensus but through edit-warring that others do not want to respond with the same to. nableezy - 22:39, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Coretheapple

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Coretheapple

The most recent edit cited here was a revert, that is correct. However, the earlier one most definitely was not. In the earlier edit cited I was adding detail to the bare-bones language describing the rapes, as I felt the previous wording raised an NPOV issue (per WP:VALID) by giving false equivalence to the well-documented rape accusations and the perfunctory Hamas denial.. An examination of the edit in question under number "2" will show that it was not a revert, as I did not undo a previous edit, and not intended to be one. Inserting ~~three words~~ the mutilation allegation from a previous edit and leaving the rest alone is an edit, not a revert. ~~I replicated the words "rape, mutilation and killing" that was indeed in a previous version~~,[see clarification below at 18:22, 16 December 2023 ] but the rest is new material (adding about the videos and rephrasing the Hamas denial) and the remaining portion of the earlier edit was not reverted. Reinstating ~~three words~~ the mutilation allegation in the course of a larger edit does not a revert make.

As I mentioned in my statement above re Andrevan on a very similar accusation leveled against another editor, I have edited many articles in controversial areas in the last eleven years and have never seen 1RR used as a bludgeon in this fashion. Coretheapple (talk) 17:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC) Please note that I have revised this comment after a less hurried examination of the diffs cited by Nableezy. Coretheapple (talk) 19:03, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since Nableezy is focusing on three words and stating that I engaged in a partial revert, to resolve this matter I have carried out a partial self-revert and removed them .[13] To deal with the WP:VALID issue, that is giving equal weight to the Hamas denial in contrast to the massive evidence of rapes and mutilations, I have also removed the Hamas denial. It is removed from the lead only; the denial is retained in the body of the article). Now please I hope that that isn't a "revert." I certainly don't think it is. Editors should be mindful of 1RR but not have to walk on eggshells. In the past I've been shoved off the 3RR board for complaining about editing that wasn't reverting, but it's been a few years and standards may have changed. Coretheapple (talk) 17:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish I just self-reverted the phrase that is at issue here. Coretheapple (talk) 18:06, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One other point I wanted to make, as I wanted to be clear what we are discussing here. Nableezy says I reverted "rape, mutilation and killing of Israeli women." That is not correct. Actually I added the words "mutilation of victims, burned corpses." ("Rapes" was not removed so therefore I did not revert it; burned corpses was not in the version supposedly reverted). Just to be totally clear what we are discussing. I apologize for the gruesome langauge. Coretheapple (talk) 18:22, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy, I'm not "picking and choosing," I'm reverting the words---what are they, three words? four?---that were the subject of your complaint. I don't have to revert text that was not the basis of your 1RR complaint. The remainder of what I added was was not a reinstatement of previous wording, but new material. Quite frankly I'm not entirely certain my earlier edit, which you claim was a revert, was a revert at all. I did not replicate the language that you say I reverted. In my haste to respond to this, I didn't even notice that. But I am trying to resolve this. Coretheapple (talk) 18:38, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of fact, in my haste to resolve this, I removed excessive text in my self-revert. The only thing reverted in the first revert, if it was indeed was a revert, was a claim of mutilation. That was it. Nothing else was reinstated. In the self-revert that I did a short time ago to resolve this, I reverted rape, mutilation and burning of bodies. Coretheapple (talk) 19:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"The self-revert is also a revert." Everything is a revert to this editor if he doesn't like it. This is a content dispute, not a reversion issue. Coretheapple (talk) 19:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just trying to resolve the issue in good faith. Didn't succeed. That's life. Coretheapple (talk) 20:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, I am attempting to get clarity from WT:EW on exactly what constitutes a revert vs an edit, concerning a live situation in another article and not what we're discussing here. I'd implore other editors here (involved parties, that is) to not weigh in let nature take its course and see what the EW regulars have to say. Going forward it may not be a bad idea to consult EW regulars for advice as conditions warrant. Coretheapple (talk) 20:31, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I thought I was curing the 1RR, but obviously I didn't. Coretheapple (talk) 22:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish That's eminently fair. Thanks very much for your hard work and thoughtful handling of this mess. Coretheapple (talk) 02:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Coretheapple

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I have a question for Nableezy. Are there not admins on the page level you could ask for assistance with this problem (and perhaps Andrean above as well)? On the one hand, AE absolutely needs to be an option for 1RR violations. On the other hand, even if you are 100% right on the merits - I will admit to not having checked because as an arb I think it best to only serve in an appellate role - it seems like the most that would happen would be a warning. And coming to AE for a warning feels like a mismatch between venue and outcome. But if there isn't a lower stakes option, I can better understand why doing this is a better option, from your POV, than doing nothing. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think ScottishFinnishRadish keeps an eye on that page somewhat but understandably the number of admins who want to be involved in this article is few. I also do agree with Nableezy somewhat that reaching out to individual admins, while it might lower the stakes, also creates weird admin shopping incentives. Galobtter (talk) 17:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy: I agree that in some instances a block is an appropriate sanction to 1RR violations. I am suggesting that in Coretheapple's case, given the violation alleged, given their history in the topic area, and given their sanction history it seems unlikely to me that more than a warning would be given. Perhaps that's wrong and some sort of short block will be given by the admins who look into this but by coming here you somewhat decrease the chances of a short block happening just because of the lag between reporting and outcome that often happens at AE. That said I can appreciate your thinking on why a neutral rather than targeted ask for help is better overall. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to prefer requests at AE. This allows for the most neutral presentation, and it also lets admins "check each other's work." That's one of the reasons I don't immediately close an AE section when I take unilateral action. Also, why can't people just self-revert and save everyone the time? There's a few slow edit wars going on, and I've been tempted to institute consensus required, but I've held off as that dramatically slows down the article. Maybe that's what's needed to stop some of the 1RR violations happening? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:04, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a 1RR violation, as was what looks like the attempted self-revert here. Self-reverting doesn't involve taking another shot at reworking the prose, it is a simple undo of your prior violation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:59, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Coretheapple, I'm not terribly interested in blocks for 1rr that's not part of a pattern. I'm much more interested in making sure it doesn't become a pattern and normalizing reaching out about 1rr for a quick self-revert. Many of these articles are incredibly active, and it's very easy to break 1rr.
In the section above I proposed people agree to provide a notification to someone who violated 1rr with the diffs, and if there's any ambiguity diffs demonstrating why it's a revert. After that wait 12-24 hours unless they're continuing to edit before escalating? And in the flip side of that coin if someone points out a 1rr violation fully self-revert, then worry about contesting the issue? Does that seem reasonable? Self-revert first, then worry about discussions at WT:EW? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:AN3 is also a viable venue for reporting potential WP:1RR vios. El_C 19:03, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aredoros87

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Aredoros87

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: KhndzorUtogh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Aredoros87 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

22 November 2023 Immediately restores their extremely contentious additions accusing someone of having "sympathy to Nazism" after not replying to a talk page discussion for over a week
23 November 2023 Now adding additional heavily biased sources that contain Armenian genocide denial and inflammatory/offensive comments about Armenians ("Armenian claims related to the traumatic events of 100 years ago", "support claims of Armenian victimhood", "Armenians seem to exhibit amnesia about their brethren’s participation") ("the Michigan Armenian lobby that in all likelihood has been greasing her political career") and otherwise ridiculous false WP:UNDUE claims ("It is practically unknown to most that Armenian antisemitism played a weighty role in Hitler’s Final Solution")
15 December 2023 Makes a WP:PA against me ("Is this the way that you discredit authors that you dislike?") and that I "unlawfully" did the same in an AFD that everyone except Aredoros87 supported. When the previously mentioned genocide denying and xenophobic sources are pointed out to them, Aredoros87 denies those sources have offensive and undue claims
15 December 2023 Continued edit warring and restoring these unreliable sources after all of the issues with them were pointed out

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Participated in process about the area of conflict (that is, requested same sanction against me with diffs that didn't merit action), on 5 December 2023.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint: Just that I didn't want to make an AE report on Aredoros87 any time soon after they made one about me, until they made a personal attack. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Grandmaster: Did you even realize that the UN report is ALREADY IN the article (second to last paragraph) but in a proper context? Did you know that you had added the same information twice? KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:55, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Aredoros87:

List article is a copy of an article that was already deleted in an AFD consensus
I reverted a topic banned user blocked as a result of making that edit.
Okay, how about a source from the Turkish Foreign Minister? "Reynolds does not categorize the Armenian events of 1915 as genocide"
You added a source blaming Armenians for the Final Solution and still reverted it back.

You weren't involved in #1-3 at all. Why is the first time you are making any issue of them while asking for sanctions (again)? This is the exact same thing that ~~Firefangledfeathers~~ ScottishFinnishRadish had described two weeks ago, that you are still throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Callanecc:

I was literally quoting the closing statement, closed with no formal action. I took the advice to follow WP:BRD very seriously, and have already demonstrated doing so.[14][15][16] --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 06:47, 25 December 2023‎ (UTC)[reply]

@Callanecc: @Vanamonde93: Please allow me to explain in detail, I had summarized "nothing to support any action" based on these quotes: the "no formal action" closing statement, "I'm not seeing enough in those three diffs to support any sanction", "I'm thinking to close this with no other action", and a final comment by Firefangledfeathers advising Aredoros for bringing weak cases to AE and for misrepresented consensus (and yet Aredoros still doing that here). I had never meant to imply that I had nothing to improve myself, I took the BRD advice very seriously and have applied it since.[17][18][19] I was only trying to illustrate Firefangledfeathers's final point which was primarily in support of warning the OP Aredoros for a very weak report. I acknowledge my words incorrectly implied there was nothing I could've done better, but please consider that I tried to keep my words simple and few because of the word limit and respect for the admins time, which is what I think caused this misunderstanding.

And for 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, I just recalled that it was Grandmaster who first changed the section wording, which they omitted mentioning. Grandmaster was a party to the AA3 case and put on indefinite probation. Indefinite probation meaning, any further edit warring should mean an immediate topic ban. Grandmaster has been edit warring with this same UNHCR statement, using it long after the ceasefire to imply to massacres before it and then, when another user removed it, reverted them and adding the same statement back. This is also the second time Grandmaster tried to tag team in an AE report I created, previously trying to claim obvious selective removal of information was not selective. This now appears to be battleground mentality. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 19:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"That's how I realized that KU often knowingly misinterprets information/sources/rules"

Aredoros not only neglected to explain their personal attacks to instead throw as much mud as possible (despite being explicitly told not to do that), they are even making new personal attacks in this very thread. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:20, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[20]

Discussion concerning Aredoros87

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Aredoros87

R1.KU presented diffs in a misleading timeframe, but:

I added(14/11/23) sources([21];[22]) day after KU claimed that sources don’t mention it. After his revert(21/11/23), I assumed his WP:GF in edit-summary and talk-page.
He cherry-picked and calledthe source "propaganda". Then complained about WP:RSAGE and asked more sources[3]. Then claimed the source was primary and removed content from articles. ([23];[24]). Again claimedsource doesn't mention what I said. I listed all mentionings.Then KU repeats same arguments and tries to discredit all 8 sources. For example, he claims author has "COI" because he gave an interviewabout political-economical relations, or tries to discredit source because author is founder of AZ-US cultural foundation.
Calling well-known scholar "genocide-denier" because he said"I cannot make juridistic assestments" is nonsense.
Last message on talk-page was posted by me(23/11/23). After ~month(14/12/23) KU suddenly deletedcontent with 8 sources. Then I restored and talkedabout it.

R2.I support WP:BOOMERANG. KU constantly POV-pushes:

redirected article, claiming it was "copy" of another article. In reality, KU deleted well-written and sourced articleand redirected to low-quality article.
claimed to be restoring removed citations[25]. In reality, KU removed sourced information about Turkic inhabitants.
changed "Claims of violence against Armenians" to "Massacre of Armenians," saying it's massacre as there's confirmation of civilian killed[26]. However, no reliable source supports that. Even UN stated "there's no violence"against civilians. Interestingly, in "Massacres of Azerbaijanis" article, KU removed sourced content about massacres of Muslims in Caucasus, claiming it isn’t about Azerbaijanis.[27]Furthermore, KU removed content, absurdly arguing massacre isn't part of homogenization [28]. So KU considering dubious claims of few civilian casualties as massacre while disregarding mass deaths of Muslims in Caucasus.
discredits sources[7] he doesn't like as "partisan” and parallelly defends partisan outlets like Armenian Revolutionary Federation

R3.I sincerely apologize for inconvenience I have unintentionally caused. As a newcomer, I made efforts to familiarize with Wikipedia policies, but I now realize–I should be more patient in editing and commenting, and I promise to learn. I must admit, I was confused by double-standards of experienced editors: when I raised concerns about sources, I was reverted[29], and was told sources not listed in WP:RSP are reliable. However, same user reverted my edits on another article, saying sources are unreliable, even though they weren't in WP:RSP.

That's how I realized that KU often knowingly misinterprets information/sources/rules. For example, KU even in AE[10]:

- referenced a dubious sourcewrongly claiming that "children being beheaded," however source states: "five civilians died as a result of shelling".

- says he deleted the article as there was an AFD in 2018. But, KU fails to mention AFD was about one-entry article with no sources, whereas deleted article had 12,000bytes and 9 sources. Why didn’t he merge content to improve Wikipedia, but choose deleting? Just compare before and after.

- says he was reverting edits of banned user. I didn't find policy justifying that. Moreover, his edit comment was, "Restoring removed citations", but now claiming he was reverting.

@Vanamonde93: I would like to let you know that I didn't write that article, but translated. Aredoros87 (talk) 21:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just briefly, re reverting banned user edits, see WP:BANREVERT and WP:BLOCKREVERT. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:05, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Grandmaster

Per WP:Boomerang, I think it would be appropriate to look into KhndzorUtogh's own recent activity. Today he removed from 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh the information provided by the top international organization, the UN, claiming that the UN info was false, despite no authoritative international organization or other third party source contesting it: [30] [31] Previously, he was among those who objected to inclusion of the same information in the related article of Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians. In order to resolve the dispute, I followed the advice of an admin and did an RFC on whether the UN information on violence against civilians during the recent hostilities should be included or not. The overwhelming community consensus was that the UN information should be included, and it was restored to the article. [32] Now KhndzorUtogh removes the same information from another article on the related topic, despite the clear community consensus that this information is relevant to the topic. Do we have to do RFCs on the same topic on every article concerning the same event, or it is enough to form the community consensus once and follow it? Grandmaster 10:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The information about the UN mission at the bottom of the article omits any mention of the UN mission report that it "did not come across any reports — either from the local population or from others — of violence against civilians following the latest ceasefire". This is the same situation that led to RFC in the article about the flight of Karabakh Armenians, where the UN mission was mentioned, but the part about civilian casualties was omitted. And 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh and Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians are pretty much the same article split in 2, as one event led to the other. The arguments against inclusion of the UN mission findings about violence against civilians were discussed in much detail during the RFC, and were rejected by the community, but KhndzorUtogh keeps bringing them up again on a related article. Grandmaster 10:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to this diff, when the UNCHR statement was removed with the comment that its place implied a rebuttal of a later statement by another source, I rearranged it chronologically to address the concern, when that was reverted by the same user, I continued discussion at talk. It is also worth mentioning that back in 2021 there was a complaint about KU [33], then a new user, of undoing edits by the same above-mentioned banned user Curious Golden regardless of their merit, and he was advised by the admins against doing that. Grandmaster 23:20, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk work (Aredoros87)

~~I don't intend to respond here except as a clerk.~~ Aredoros87, you greatly exceeded your word limit, and I have cut your most recent response. You are free to shorten your statement to accommodate further responses—as long as you don't meaningfully change any part that has been responded to—or request a word limit extension. Please assume that you will need space for further replies and trim accordingly. I'm unlikely to accept an extension request until it's clear that responding admins would benefit from further info, but such a request might be granted by someone else. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC) striking a bit 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
KhndzorUtogh: you are at your word limit. Please do not reply further unless granted an extension. You may want to proactively trim. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Grandmaster: you are at your word limit. Please do not reply further unless granted an extension. You may want to proactively trim. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A note in case it helps: I'm unlikely to grant word limit extensions at this time. I think the current length is already a barrier in getting admin attention. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I granted KU and GM another 200 words each per requests at my user talk and am granting Aredoros87 the same for fairness. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:33, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Aredoros87

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I said I was just going to clerk, but I forgot I'd reviewed a prior dispute between these two. Might have thoughts later, but I'd prefer to hear from other admins first. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like there are two issues here:
1. A87's and KU's conduct at Ruben Darbinyan and its talk page.
2. A87's and KU's conduct in the wider AA topic area.
I think there's enough evidence presented—which I haven't reviewed quite enough yet to suggest any action—for responding admins to come to some sort of conclusion for #1, even if that conclusion is inaction. I think it makes sense to start small and go big, so I'd prefer to postpone review of #2 or have it take place in a separate filing. A narrow finding of fact might be useful in processing the wider issue. I'm partially favoring this process option because I, and probably many admins, will be busy with holiday obligations for the next week or so. Any admin that's enthusiastic about a wider and deeper review should go ahead. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm grateful for the additional analysis. I'll say that I really did mean for the advice to KU to be a non-warning. I don't think we're quite at "something must be done", but I do agree that some sanctions could help relieve contention in this topic area. I'm pro-IBAN. As I understand the ban, they could still bump into each other, but they'd need to neutrally seek dispute resolution—without comment on the other party—rather than debate 1 on 1 and revert war. A TBAN from just Nagorno-Karabakh wouldn't cover something like the Darbinyan article. How about a shorter AA-wide TBAN? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - Rather than a TBAN I'd be okay with trying an individual consensus-required type restriction where if their edits in the topic area are reverted they need to establish a consensus for the edit before readding it (with the usual exemptions). Ping Vanamonde93 for your thoughts. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Noting that I've modified my initial suggestion of a replacement to an IBAN as I just noticed above there is still commenting on each other rather than the substantative issue when it's really not required above. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:12, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My analysis of the evidence presented above:

I believe we're in WP:ARBAA3#Administrators encouraged territory so we're at a spot where sanctions are necessary. The goal of this thread will be to determine what those sanctions are.
Aredoros87 filed an AE request concerning KhndzorUtogh earlier this month. The request was closed on 12 December with advice to both editors. For KhndzorUtogh to follow BRD more closely, check content they're adding to the lead is sourced and include reasons with reverts. A87 was advised to build a stronger case before coming to AE and not to cite consensus where none clearly exists. Given the history between these two editors of not working well together and that they've recently filed requests against each other a mutual interaction been seems a good starting point.
Re KhndzorUtogh:

Despite this month's AE thread being closed with advice to them, KhndzorUtogh says above that the the AE thread saw nothing to support any action against them [34] which suggests that they don't feel they need to improve their conduct.
I find this revert concerning given the reminder about BRD in the previous AE thread and that there was a talk page discussion underway that they had not contributed to and rather than do so first they reverted as the first step.
At Ramil Safarov, while dismissing a concern A87 had about sources KU added to the article, KU implied that as the sources aren't listed at WP:RSP they are fine to use and reverted A87's removal of them.
At 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, after the December AE thread was closed KU changed the section heading regarding civilian deaths from "Claims of violence against" to "Massacre of". Around 24 hours later this change was then reverted by A87. Approximately seven days later KU changed it to "Reports of violence against" without noting this in the edit summary. Neither change was discussed on the article talk page.
At Ruben Darbinyan, KU edit warred rather than allowing discussion to take place without this added conflict. 3 November (then started talk section) 21 November (seven days after last talk page reply) 13 December (three weeks after last talk page reply) instead of only engaging constructively in discussion to come to a resolution. KU's third revert occured after they had not replied on the talk page for three weeks following A87's most recent talk page comment and article edit.

Re Aredoros87 :

At Ruben Darbinyan, A87 edit warred rather than allowing discussion to take place without this added conflict. 10 November (5 days after last talk page reply), 23 November 15 December. The last two reverts were following KU returning to the article after a break and reverting.
A87 engaged in incivil behaviour and made a personal attack towards KU at Talk:Ruben Darbinyan.

Summary: As I said above the starting point for sanctions appears to be a mutual IBAN between A87 and KU. I'm currently considering whether further sanctions are necessary. That might be a crafted revert restriction (BRD with a long timeframe or a paired down version of something like consensus required) or a topic ban. I'm not convinced that this'd work in practice but another option might be that if a source they wish to use is challenged (including reverted) they need to establish a consensus in favour of using it (on the article talk page, RSN, etc) before they can readd it. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:20, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After seeing KU's reply I'm more inclined to TBAN than I was before. Their justification that they were quoting from the closure statement of the last AE request is patently false, "closed with no formal action" is not the same as "saw nothing to support any action". If they believe that that is a quote then I have no faith in their ability to assertain information from sources. In the last AE thread they were advised to follow BRD more closely and while KU has provided some examples what I think they've demonstrated is that they were doing it sometimes but not in this instance. For example, KU said that they added the "Massacres of..." section header and so when it was changed by someone else then didn't follow BRD when changing it back.
I'm also more convinced of the POV editing from A87 and that to counter it required a TBAN, potentially limited to particilar areas around conflict in particular.
Re Vanamonde93's suggestion of a logged warning, I think in some topic areas, especially where ArbCom has passed an "Administrators encouraged" remedy, we should look to seeing unlogged reminders/advice and logged warnings as effectively equivalent. If advice didn't work we should strongly consider skipping logged warnings in favour of more impactful sanctions. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for organizing this evidence, Callanecc. Regarding your second KU diff, hadn't they responded twice in the talk page discussion before reverting? As I see it, at the moment of their revert, there were two talk page participants in favor of including the UNHCR paragraph and two opposed, and I'm surprised to see that GM restored the content while consensus was so unclear. GM was leaning on an RfC at a different article, with disagreement about its applicability being reasonable. Am I misreading? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're correct. I suspect I misread the month of the edit. I've struck it above. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a difficult situation, that is in many ways similar to nationalist POV disputes in other contemporary ethno-nationalist conflicts. It's made more difficult by the fact that many sources are not in English, and assessing their quality and partisanship is therefore very challenging.
I'm seeing sub-par behavior from both editors that smacks of POV intent; reverting while discussion is ongoing, using marginal sources to support a preferred version of content but opposing sources of similar quality elsewhere, using marginal sources to make the most sweeping statements possible, edit-warring slowly instead of discussing (not every behavior is visible for both users). KU is also showing some evidence of stonewalling/filibustering, while I'm more concerned at A87's use of sources (including at this AfD, that isn't mentioned here AFAICS).
That said, I'm not necessarily seeing a smoking gun here that would justify a draconian sanction (such as a CT-wide TBAN); and I'm not sure what lesser scope I would choose. Callanecc, I'm somewhat opposed to an IBAN. This isn't a particularly wide topic; I find it difficult to believe these two can continue to edit constructively in this topic without running into each other constantly. I would prefer a logged warning about battleground behavior. Vanamonde (Talk) 13:09, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Callanecc: I share your concern about KU's response to the previous AE. I remain opposed to an IBAN, but as I said above I would consider a TBAN of limited scope. My hesitation is with finding appropriate scope. In my assessment KU has been more immediately disruptive within the locus of the present-day dispute between the two countries, and A87's behavior is concerning topic-wide, but I would not want to give A87 the wider sanction here. How do you (and Firefangledfeathers feel about a 3-month TBAN from the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict for both parties? That's the best I can come up with at the moment. Vanamonde (Talk) 09:30, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

שמי (2023)

Blocked for one week by ScottishFinnishRadish. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning שמי (2023)

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Zero0000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:31, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: שמי (2023) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_4

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

All of these are WP:ARBECR violations.

Oct 12 2023 First violation after Oct 11 notification of sanctions
Approximately 30 similar violations omitted (please see contribs)
Dec 21 First violation after Dec 20 further explanation of sanctions
Dec 11 again
Dec 11 again
Dec 11 again
Dec 11 again
Dec 23 again

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Formal notification on October 11
On December 20, thinking that the user had not understood the ARBECR restrictions, I explained them again

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This user has never responded on its talk page, nor reacted to having edits reverted on ARBPIA grounds. Whether that indicates blissful ignorance or wilful ignorance, I don't care to guess.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:שמי_(2023)&diff=prev&oldid=1191418762>

Discussion concerning שמי (2023)

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by שמי (2023)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning שמי (2023)

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Blocked for a week for ECR violations. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:49, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seems reasonable to me. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rsk6400

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Rsk6400

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Crash48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Rsk6400 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBEE

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

WP:STONEWALL:
1. 13 November 2023 reverted my addition with the message stop edit warring. You have no consensus for that; two weeks earlier, on 29 October 2023, I had pinged him on the article talk page asking whether he had any opposition against my addition; Rsk6400 ignored my question, and it remains unanswered to this day.
2. 13 November 2023 refused to state any specific reasons for reverting my addition when I asked him on his user talk page.
3. 16 December 2023 claimed that most of the draft I created is original synthesis of primary sources; but then refused the moderator's request to identify the text that is synthesis from primary sources.

WP:FILIBUSTER:
1. 28 November 2023 feigned willingness to participate in a mediated DR; but then, over the course of a month, refused to suggest any specific change to the article, or to relate to any specific change suggested by me.
2. 10 December 2023 stated that after a draft of the proposed article section is created, he'd like to take part in the process of improving the draft; but after the draft was created, he refused to contribute even a single edit to it.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict on 24 November 2023, and further warned by the DR moderator on 4 December 2023, on 5 December 2023 and on 22 December 2023 as he kept on filibustering without engaging in the discussion of the content whose inclusion he opposes.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

See WP:DRN#Ukrainian language for the DR which is now closed as failed.

Earlier, on 20 September 2023, Rsk6400 stated that the reason why he reverted my addition was "because it was without context". Then, on 22 September 2023, Rsk6400 added a "context" to the article to his satisfaction; but he insists on reverting my addition even though the "context" he had required is now present.

The example when an editor refuses to accept a change unless some condition is complied with, but it is not a condition that has any basis in Wikipedia policies or guidelines is specifically listed as a case of stonewalling, and Rsk6400's condition that primary sources should not be used here[35] has no basis in Wikipedia policies or guidelines.

Regarding the accusations of me edit warring: WP:DRNC#How to respond to a "no consensus" edit summary advises, upon not receiving any response on the talk page from the revertor within a few days, to reapply the change, prior to taking the dispute to other forums. This is the recommended course of action that I followed, unlike Rsk6400 none of whose reverts was preceded with an attempt to discuss the content that he disputes.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [36]

Discussion concerning Rsk6400

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Rsk6400

The issue was discussed at

Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
Talk:Ukrainian_language#Pereiaslav_and_Western_Ukraine
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 107#Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
[Arbitration requests https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&oldid=1185623520#Ukrainian_language]
Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Ukrainian_language
After filing this request, Crash48 also started an RfC at Talk:Ukrainian_language#Request_for_comment_on_adding_a_section_on_the_names_of_the_language.

Re "Stonewall" 3: The moderator misunderstood my point, which was "The claim ... is not really supported by the source." (From the diff given by Crash48)

Re "Filibuster" 2: When I stated my willingness to improve the draft, there were three editors in the discussion. I was hoping that the third editor would provide a sensible draft, but they withdrew from the discussion.

I'll gladly answer to the other points if an admin has any questions.

Please note that Crash48 says that I "feigned willingness" (against AGF) and that they continued edit warring at Ukrainian language after they accepted the rules of the moderated discussion. I'll provide the diffs as soon as I can, but please excuse me for now because of Christmas celebrations (Happy Xmas to all who celebrate that feast !) Rsk6400 (talk) 15:48, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that I informed the third party of the DNR of this discussion[37].

Replying to Robert McClenon's statement: It's not true that I "wanted to roll back the article to a stable version". I demanded that the rule be applied according to which the mediation failed because Crash48 edited the article after having accepted the rules.[38] I also wanted that you saw that you were mistaken when saying that Crash48 made that edit "so soon after I [Robert McClenon] provided the rules."[39] It's also not true that you "had to" collapse much of the discussion. At least everything that I said was said for procedural reasons. The extracts from the discussion (8th to 10th statements) which you presented here are arbitrarily chosen. Of course, I said that "most" was original synthesis. But the most important claim was "not really supported by the source." I'm really at a loss how you could misunderstand me so often and so deeply. I reject your final statement that it was me who "made reasoned discussion impossible." Rsk6400 (talk) 19:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Robert McClenon

I was the moderator at DRN of the dispute over the content of the Ukrainian language article. When I begin mediation of a content dispute about a contentious topic, I instruct the principals to acknowledge that they are aware that the topic is contentious. Some topics are subject to battleground editing because they have historically been real battlegrounds. Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, which is where World War Two began. It is also the location of the bloodiest war of the twenty-first century.

This was a difficult mediation. Both Crash48 and Rsk6400 had to be warned. I had to collapse back-and-forth discussion. Rsk6400 wanted to roll back the article to a stable version, which I did not do, because my objective is to improve the article going forward rather than to go back. Rsk6400 wanted me to fail the mediation because Crash64 had edited the article after I had said not to edit the article. I could have failed the mediation at this point, but chose not to do so, because I was trying at least to get the parties to agree as to what they disagreed about.

Things got worse on 20 December, when I tried to explain what I saw as the situation. I thought that I was quoting Rsk6400, and they denied having said that there was original synthesis from primary sources. This appears to be an attempt to gaslight the moderator. I failed the moderation when I thought that I was being gaslighted.

In Rsk6400's Eighth Statement, they wrote:

Commenting on this version of the draft: Most of it is original synthesis of primary sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=1190235427&oldid=1190181961

So in my Tenth Statement, I wrote:

I was mistaken in my statement about what Rsk6400 wrote about Crash48's section on name. They said that the section consisted largely of synthesis from primary sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=1190852606&oldid=1190699459

Then in Rsk6400's Tenth Statement, they wrote:

Dear moderator, the whole thing has become too frustrating for me. You misunderstood my eighth statement once again. The claim in the first sentence "[before mid-19th century] the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian" is not really supported by the source. The source (Flier & Graziosi) is of course a secondary source. I did not claim that this was original synthesis as you mistakenly claimed in your last statement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADispute_resolution_noticeboard&diff=1191238647&oldid=1191110219

Maybe they aren't trying to confuse the moderator, which may be like trying to confuse a jury, but the effect is that they made reasoned discussion impossible. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Manyareasexpert

Greetings, just a small comment regarding "Most of it is original synthesis of primary sources" and "is not really supported by the source" to @Robert McClenon 's attention. Both can be true, the section of the text could be "original synthesis" mostly, and the particular sentence out of it may "not really be supported by the source". Indeed, if we look at the text Draft:Ukrainian language/Names/Crash48, it has an extensive collection of facts (primary sources) of how Ukrainian was named Little Russian and Ruthenian (confirming synthesis), and the best I can find confirming "[before mid-19th century] the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian" at the source given [40] is ... the “Little Russian” language (the term used for Ukrainian in the Russian Empire)... and ... It was during this period that elites on both sides of the border began to apply the term Ukrainian to the varieties formerly called Ruthenian and Little Russian., and @Rsk6400 may hold the opinion that The source only makes the corresponding statement in a specific context, i.e. to specify the language it is talking about Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Eighth statements by editors (Ukrainian language) . Manyareasexpert (talk) 09:52, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Rsk6400

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Crash48's contributions to the mediation are filled with sections where they demonstrate a battleground mentality. For example Third statement and Fourth statement.
Robert McClenon's statement does a good job of summarising Rsk6400's stonewalling in this discussion. I also found Rsk6400's focus that the mediation should have failed when Crash48 edited the article exemplified their stonewalling and battleground mentaility throughout the mediation.
Both editors also engaged in (slow) edit warring at the Ukrainian language article. Based on the above I would support topic banning both editors from the Ukrainian language. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:07, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

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