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June 21

Desk officer

In my dictionary it says: "A military officer who is not assigned to active duty". However, I found the word in a civil context. What does this person do? GoingOnTracks (talk) 04:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Depends. It seems to be a job title that anyone can use, e.g. the police, medical staff, other. Heck, we here could probably start calling ourselves (reference) desk officers. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can use it? Shouldn't you at least work on a desk to be a "desk officer"? GoingOnTracks (talk) 13:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily. I've come across the term in government. Within the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Australia), there's a different "desk" dealing with each different overseas country or region. Some "desks" are probably entire floors of people, e.g. those covering our major trading partners, USA, UK, Japan etc. Other "desks" are smaller groups, or even just one person, e.g. Andorra. If you ring the department enquiring about some aspect of our relations with Country X, they'll "put you through to the appropriate desk officer". As for working at an actual desk, I believe the usual expression these days is "work station", but old terminology dies hard. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose a desk officer needs a desk about as much as a cabinet minister needs a cabinet ;-) -- Q Chris (talk) 07:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

name of drawing

How do you call this kind of drawing? I mean a drawing when an object has been cut in the middle. GoingOnTracks (talk) 04:27, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a cross section. - Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 04:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Cross section" is commonly used that way, but there is also a more precise usage where "section" alone has that meaning ("section" comes from a Latin word meaning a cut), and in that usage a cross section is specifically one where the cut goes across the object the short way. In that case a lengthwise cut is called a "longitudinal section", like this one: Image:75mmGun1897M1LongitudinalSection.jpg. --Anonymous, 05:10 UTC, June 21, 2008.

I'd call it a sectional view. --71.162.233.193 (talk) 22:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

operative trauma Talk:Penile plethysmograph

What does "operative trauma" mean? Please see operative trauma Penile plethysmograph and Talk:Penile plethysmograph. Thanks.68.148.164.166 (talk) 05:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not 100% sure, but my guess is that it refers to an injury caused by a surgery. — Kpalion^(talk) 12:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"bulk-producing"

What does "bulk-producing" mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamucil?68.148.164.166 (talk) 06:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not entirely sure either, but the term "bulk" is used a lot in the Dietary fiber article. The Wiktionary article bulk says it just means fiber (in food). —An gr 07:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've just corrected that Wiktionary entry: the fiber itself is not bulk; rather, bulk is the result of water retained by the fiber in food or food supplements. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In this context, the stool is of greater volume ("bulk"), with the therapeutic effect of stimulating, thus facilitating, its passage. Reader, please note: While the Wikipedia Ref Desk does not provide medical information, I will add: in some medical conditions, the use of a bulk-producing laxative may be inappropriate or harmful. It would be advisable to ask specific questions on the manufacturer's website, and to consult a physician regarding particular symptoms. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Value of a book

What is the English word for the value of rare books (in French : la cote)? Does anyone know of a good site that gives them? Fanx. 200.127.59.151 (talk) 14:27, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't expect that there's an English word specifically for the "value of a book". You would need to use general terms like "price", "cost", "value", "worth", etc. StuRat (talk) 16:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to know the prices that dealers are asking for books (which may or may not bear much relationship to the books' values), this site is a good place to look. Deor (talk) 16:35, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"La cote" in French is used for many things (stock shares, collectibles etc.) but in English, people simply use "price", or in specific contexts: "quote" or "quotation" like in Financial quote (this is very rare in a normal conversation).--Lgriot (talk) 08:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

unusual declension of the Latin noun aedes

In Reading Latin: Text by Jones and Sidwell, on page 44, there is a stage direction "Bacchidēs ad aedīs regrediuntur." This comes from a heavily adapted excerpt from Plautus' Bacchides. I've diligently checked the original, and the phrase does not appear there, but there is a parallel phrase with the word "aedes" (with no macron, as these are unmarked). It appears to me as though Jones and Sidwell have got it wrong - aedēs is a plural noun, third declension, so there should be no form 'aedīs'. From the context (the preposition 'ad' takes the accusative), it should surely be "aedēs." Why did they not write this? Am I totally missing something??? Thanks in advance, 203.221.126.174 (talk) 16:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The ending -īs in the accusative plural is characteristic of third-declension masculine and feminine i-stems (more so in earlier periods; it was pretty much replaced by -ēs in later times). Lewis & Short have an example from Plautus' Casina: "insectātur omnēs domī per aedīs" (used to illustrate the use of aedis in the sense "room"; macrons added for clarity). Deor (talk) 16:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Deor. You seem to know your Latin, though unfortunately your user page doesn't tell me much about you (though I guess neither does mine). If you know this kind of thing, can I ask if you are aware of any websites or reference works on these kinds of spelling and grammar changes? Studying them in depth would be useless for me (I'm La-1 at the moment) but having the reference would save a lot of frustration, so I could tackle works which are above me, without suffering unduly from the fog of misunderstanding. 203.221.126.174 (talk) 17:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Perseus Project has Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar online here, which you should find useful. If you open the section on third-declension i-stems and scroll down to the subsection "Summary of i-Stems," you'll see that it begins "The i-declension was confused even to the Romans themselves"; so you shouldn't feel frustrated. Deor (talk) 17:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I should add that you may want to procure a Latin grammar in book form (the aforementioned one by Allen & Greenough and Gildersleeve & Lodge's Latin Grammar are popular among students), since you'll find the index—not included in the online version—useful for finding things. Deor (talk) 17:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe even the famous beginning to Caesar's Gallic War is uncertain in this regard: IIRC, some manuscripts read "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres", with the Classical -ēs ending of the accusative plural, while others read "Gallia est omnis divisa in partis tris", with the early -īs ending. —An gr 19:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Aeneid is also full of these. I thought, however, that -is had a short vowel, and -es had a long one; so Virgil used -is when the meter called for it. But perhaps I am misremembering. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Etymologically at least, -īs with a long i is expected since it comes from *-ins and the loss of the n caused compensatory lengthening. —An gr 10:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all very much :):), that's a very useful set of answers. One final quick one, based on Deor's first answer: what exactly is an i-stem? Pardon me if it's on page 1 of Allen and Greenough; I will get around to checking there, but my dial up is slow, and it's past midnight here. I'm assuming from the context it means the first letter after the stem in the nominative is "i", as with aed-is, but that means that the "i" itself isn't part of the i-stem, which is quirky. Great to have so many other Latin freaks on the wiki, :) 203.221.127.50 (talk) 17:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ooops, just read Deor's second post more carefully, and in any case, I've managed to get onto the Allen and Greenough page, and it does go into what these things are. I'll get back with more q's if it's confusing. Thanks for the help folks. 203.221.127.50 (talk) 18:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese grammar

In Chinese, "The car is yellow" would be translated to "这辆汽车是黄色的" (Pinyin: zhè liàng qì chē shì huáng sè de). My understanding is that the 的 (de) is an adjectival suffix; without out it the sentence would mean that the car is the actual colour yellow instead of yellow in colour.

Assuming the above is correct, then why, for example, if I was pointing at a yellow car and wanted to say "It is yellow" would it be 它是黄色 (Pinyin: tā shì huáng sè). i.e. Why is there no 的 (de)? Wouldn't that then mean that I was pointing at the colour yellow? --RMFan1 (talk) 19:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can't answer your question, but it reminds me of A white horse is not a horse...

AnonMoos (talk) 19:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"noun+shì+adjective+de" is a fixed construction. You use this, or simply "noun+adjective" without a copula (as in many other languages). People still understand you if you omit de, though it sounds unnatural. Of course nobody will think that you mean "the car is the actual colour yellow", since it makes no sense. Btw, in natural speech a pronoun is usually not used for an inanimate object.--K.C. Tang (talk) 11:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See also the Wikipedia article on Chinese_adjectives. --71.162.233.193 (talk) 13:44, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would have said 这是黄色的 if I was pointing at a yellow car. If I said 这是黄色, I would be saying "This is [the colour] yellow." It would be, by no means, ungrammatical, but it has a different meaning. You can leave out the 色 in many situations, but the 的 is usually only left out when the adjective is not a predicate, and governing noun is a short, familiar word and not confusible with compounds. Steewi (talk) 01:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The one without "de" would be saying that "the car is the colour yellow" literally. It wouldn't have made sense to any Chinese if you said it. Adding "de" to the end is the way of turning noun to adjective in Chinese.--Faizaguo (talk) 11:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

June 22

"privately-held"

What does "privately-held" mean?68.148.164.166 (talk) 08:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See privately held company. --Anonymous, 09:49 UTC, June 22, 2008.

(Responding to 68.148.164.166,) I noticed that you inserted a cleanup tag in the privately held company article with the remark that it 'does not define the term "privately-held"'. The term is clearly explained in the lead section of the article. The cleanup tag should be removed unless there are other reasons for it being there. --71.162.233.193 (talk) 14:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It means it is not government and it is not shared publicly on the stock market. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And I thought "privately-held" had an entirely different meaning: [1]. StuRat (talk) 12:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

N Word

what is the N word? I thought it was nigger, but as I heard that Denise Richards has been called by the N word, I don´t know anymore.

Hi. The articles N word on Wikipedia and n-word on Wiktionary may help you. Thanks. ~A H 1^(TCU) 17:48, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, this transcript may interest you [2] Nil Einne (talk) 19:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Brought to you by that eminent ethnologist, Charlie Sheen. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think he was using it metaphorically, as in Woman is the Nigger of the World. —An gr 04:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kilometre Pronunciation

Moved from miscellaneous as requested by the questioner Fribbler (talk) 23:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC) [reply]
Why do westerners (English speakers) say kilOMeter, instead of KILLometer? (accents indicated by bold caps) Why do we still use the French pronunciation just for this one but not for others ending in meter such as:

centimeter ,
millimeter,
decimeter,
micrometer,
mega meter,
nanometer,
picometer
femtometer
attometer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.232.210 (talk) 00:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm British and I say KILLometer. It's not the universal British pronunciation though, as I sometimes hear other Brits say kilOMeter. To my ears, kilOMeter sounds slightly American. Also, I don't think kilOMeter can be described as the French pronunciation - I think the French say kilomETRE, or possibly kilometre (with no stress on any vowel). I think the Irish say kilOMeter, and the Germans say kilomETer . But in answer to your question, I have to say I don't know why many do say kilOMeter but MILLimeter, NANometer and so on.--92.40.24.228 (talk) 06:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm American and I say kilOMeter. But as far as micrometer goes, I say MICROmeter for the distance and miCROMeter for the measuring device. Maybe I'm just weird? Dismas|^(talk) 09:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's the same way I pronounce things in Detroit, USA. A KILLometer sounds like a device used to measure how dead something is (or is that a MORTgage ?). StuRat (talk) 14:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, this would have been an excellent question for the Language Ref Desk. StuRat (talk) 14:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As the OP, I have no objection to this thred being moved to the language desk, if someone would kindly do that for me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.161.174 (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

KILogram, KILowatt, kilOMeter, KILoton. Hrmph. I doubt there's any good reason for it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

KILLometer sounds trochaic. KilOMeter sounds iambic. In William Shakespeare's Macbeth, the people spoke iambic, except the witches. They spoke trochaic, giving them an eery sound. I think this is why we use the iambic version, not the trochaic version.Coffsneeze (talk) 03:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note that there are only three named multiples of a meter that are commonly used in English: the millimeter, centimeter, and kilometer. Of these only the kilometer has a name ending in -ometer. It seems a reasonable conjecture that its pronunciation was influenced by the various measuring devices whos names also end in -ometer, typically having with the O accented (thermometer, speedometer, etc.). Dictionaries generally don't give etymologies for pronunciations, so I'm not sure where one would look to see if there is research supporting or refuting this conjecture. An interesting case is the micrometer, which is accented on the O when it's a measuring device but on the I when it means 1/1,000,000 of a meter; but this does not refute the conjecture because the usual name for 1/1,000,000 m before the rise of SI metric was "micron", not "micrometer".

It should also be noted that the kill-O-meter pronunciation has a practical advantage: if all the kilo- units are accented on the first syllable, then many of their names sound very similar, which increases the chance that they will be misheard. If the primary accent had been on the third syllable, kill-o-ME-ter, that might have helped avoid this problem, but that's not a common accentuation pattern in English. Note also that the kilogram and only the kilogram is commonly shortened to "kilo", which again helps make it distinct from other kilo- units. (This issue of possible confusion does not arise in the language that we get these units from, because French does not have the pattern of strongly stressed and blurry unstressed syllable s that English does. It could be an issue in Russian, where unstressed syllables are blurred the way they are in English -- anyone know how these words are accented in Russian?)

--Anonymous, 03:55 UTC, June 23, 2008.

The only units of length my reference books have, the Russian words for kilometre, centimetre and millimetre, are all accented on the -me- syllable: kilo-MEtr, santi-MEtr, mili-MEtr. The word for the measuring device the micrometer is accented on the -cro-: mi-KRO-metr. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is a "santi-MEtr" used to determine who's naughty and who's nice ? StuRat (talk) 12:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe what we need around here sometimes is a sanity-MEtr". :) -- JackofOz (talk) 12:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is probably incorrect, but I either say kilOMeter or more like KEY-lo-meter, the latter probably is incorrect, but I hear people say KEY-lo a lot too. KILL-o-meter just sounds ugly to me, like what StuRat said. And I'm also in the US. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 17:09, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A few years ago it was common for American doctors to say "SAWNTimeter" in a pseudo-French pronunciation, which missed the mark by having "-meter" rather than "=metre" at the end. Sounded bogus. Edison (talk) 19:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"KILL-o-meter" sounds like something Arnold Schwarzenegger would carry in one of his movies. Kill-OM-eter sounds nicer. But of course, being American, I usually just say "MILE." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Frost is probably still grateful that you guys have dragged the chain on the metric thing. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

June 23

Greek Title

Please transliterate and translate the title of Theodore of Gaza's book. I can't write it, but the link is here: [3]. Thanks so much. --Omidinist (talk) 04:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The title is [ὅτι ἡ φύσις οΰ βουλεύται'] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) (approximation because the text was so unclear), which can be transliterated as oti i físis ou voulevti in modern transliteration. Sadly, I cannot translate it. Hope I helped. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 09:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The last word is βουλεύεται, "bouleuetai", which is a verb like "decides" (rather than βουλεύται, "bouleutai", the people in the boule). φύσις, "physis", is "nature". Sorry, my Greek is terrible, so I'm not much help. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Why nature is not resolved on," i.e., why the scope of nature's operations is an undecided question. In addition to Adam's emendation, the fourth word is οὐ, not οΰ. Deor (talk) 12:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just noticed that you asked for a transliteration as well: hoti ē phusis ou bouleuetai. Deor (talk) 13:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks from the bottom of my heart for the time you have spent to find the answers. --Omidinist (talk) 13:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Russian text on a memorial monument

...at ~~the site of the Pechora camp~~ a mass killing site in the town of Pechera, Vinnitsa Oblast, Ukraine (formerly Transnistria). These are the opening words of the Russian-language plaque; how to translate to English?:

ЗАДУМАИСЯ ЧЕЛОВЕК !

(I hope I've rendered it correctly; the original is engraved in block letters.) -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 06:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
NB: an English translation of the Russian and Hebrew texts has been published in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, vol. 4, p. 1529; in that version: "Reflect, O Man!" -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It can be transliterated as "Zadumaisya chelovek!" Try searching the terms in a Russian-English dictionary. Given that the second word is "man", I think it does translate as "Reflect, O Man!" as given in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (however, since I do not speak Russian, I am not sure). --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 09:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct. --Ghirla^-трёп- 10:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it a Russian translation of "Ecce Homo"? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't think so. My Russian Bible translates "Ecce Homo" (or rather, Ἱδού ό Ἂνθρωπος) simply as "ce, Чeлoвeк". —An gr 19:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is that bible in actual Russian or Old Church Slavonic, Angr? (The Russian Orthodox Church's services are conducted in the latter, not the former, and there are significant differences.) "ce" looks like Old Church Slavonic to me. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's in actual Russian, but of course it might be highly OCS-influenced. My OCS (or RCS) Bible says "ce чл҃вѣкъ". —An gr 04:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Greek name style

In the book The Burnt Ones the ending of names changes according to whether it's a male or female form, or a family name and then when it's plural. If I say the Alexious family, that's the family name, but if I want to say the Alexiouses in the Greek form, would it be the Alexioi, or something else? Thanks, Julia Rossi (talk) 09:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With respect to pluralization of Classical Greek and Latin names, which dictates -us names be pluralized to -i, Alexioi would indeed seem to be the correct plural. It does sound strange, but that's thanks to the -ous ending being uncommon (compare Comnenus and the likes). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ishtar Dark (talk • contribs) 17:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Except that in unlatinised Greek they end in '-os', not '-us'. Unless 'Alexious' has been Latinised from 'Alexioos', it would appear to have an ending '-ous'. It's anybody's guess what the plural would be: perhaps even something like 'Alexiodes'. --ColinFine (talk) 23:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your helpful answers. Will go ahead with Alexioi in the plot summary unless something else comes up. Meanwhile, I'll post this to the talk page for future reference. Cheers, Julia Rossi (talk) 04:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indian

What does "Indian Valley" mean?

College of Marin - Kentfield, Indian Valley
— http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_County%2C_California#Colleges_and_universities

68.148.164.166 (talk) 11:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As one might gather, it's the name of one of the two campuses of the College of Marin. It's in the town of Novato. Why it's called the Indian Valley campus is explained in the last paragraph under "History" in College of Marin. Deor (talk) 12:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The teen numbers in other languages

This thought just occurred to me today randomly. Are there other languages other than English (and I guess German, and most languages derived from German) where numbers are almost said backwards from what's written? For example, 16 is sixteen, where you say the 6 first, unlike in say Japanese or Chinese or Spanish, where it'd be ten-six. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 16:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're right about the Germanic languages; the Scandinavian languages use the inverted up to 20, as does English. German is even more extreme: it uses the inverted order up to 100 (25 is fünfundzwanzig). The inverted order also exists (to some degree) in the romance languages: Italian inverts the order until sixteen (sedici, shortened from sei-dieci)) where it switches ordering (17 is diciassette, shortened (or rather sped up) from dieci e sette); French works basically the same although the number words from 11 to 16 have been shortened so much they are almost unrecognizable. This is of course another question, but I've always wondered about that peculiar hexadecimality in the romance languages... -- Ferkelparade π 17:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Latin goes undecim (one-ten) to septendecim (seven-ten) then duo-de-viginti (two from twenty), undeviginti (one-from-twenty). Spanish goes quince (from quindecim, 15) then diez y seis (ten and six). I'd be unsurprised to learn that some Romance languages break pattern at yet other points. —Tamfang (talk) 04:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hebrew. The word for 10 is 'eser; from 11 to 19 the digits appear reversed as in English: akhat-'esrei, shteim-'esrei, shlosh-esrei... using the construct form of the ones' digit's name so no conjunction is needed. The higher numbers with 1-9 for the ones' digit (21-29, 31-39, etc.) combine as the sequence of the digits and include the conjunction prefix ve- ("and"; u- before the letter shin) between them: 'esrim ve-akhat, 'esrim u-shtayyim, 'esrim ve-shalosh... -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Russian too. The teens are all of the form number + preposition + shortened form of ten: одиннадсать, двенадсать, etc. After the teens, though, it's more like English, though some are weird, but they're all "twenty two" sorts of things. (Why is 40 "сорок", I've always wondered?) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was once told that sorok (Russian for 40) literally means 'bushel', though there's no evidence of that in my biggest bilingual dictionary. —Tamfang (talk) 04:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorok is an exception, rather like English eleven. It's most likely a loanword, either from Greek (σαράντα), or from Turkic (kirk). The earlier Slavic word for "forty" was четыре десѧте. Max Vasmer postulates the original meaning of sorok as "forty sable furs" and connects it with a Russian word for shirt, sorochka, which is likely derived form Old Norse serkr. --Ghirla^-трёп- 19:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Celtic languages also say "four-teen", "fif-teen", "six-teen" etc. in that order. And if you're mentioning the actual items being counted, you even say "two horses and twenty" or "nine years and thirty" and the like. —An gr 19:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Across the ocean, Apachean languages have this order as well. Western Apache adds a -ts’ádah "-teen" suffix to the ones digits and Navajo adds a similar -tsʼáadah suffix. This is also true of Kiowa. – ishwar (speak) 20:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, this is a lot more examples than I ever expected to see. Thanks for all the responses, and do keep them coming! I just started wondering this because only digits in certain ranges have this weird rule, and I actually thought it might only be a Germanic thing. I could understand more if 11-99 all followed the same format (well, 99 would be 99 either way, but you get the idea). Anyone know how this discrepancy came about then? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually 99 is not necessarily the same either way, because the component indicating the tens digit may be modified. Thus in English we have "ninety-nine", whereas in German they have the equivalent of "nine-and-ninety": neunundneunzig. --Anonymous, zero four: four-and-twenty, June the twenty-fourth, two thousand eight.

Like English, (and unlike the hexadecimal shift in Ferkelparade's examples of French and Italian) Latin and Romanian numbers, but also Finnish numerals, are further examples of little endianness from 11-19, switching to big endianness for higher numbers. According to the article on Etruscan numerals Etruscologists think Etruscan had one-ten (θuśar), two-ten (zalśar}, three-ten (ciśar) ... too. Australian Aboriginal enumeration has examples in Wurundjeri and Wotjobaluk where all the numbers 1 through 16 (or 15) are named after body parts. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think it's weird. -teen just means "+10" while -ty means "x10". And having both as suffixes is a very regular thing.

I also don't find it weird. The adoption of Arabic numerals for writing numbers was a late development, long after all the languages mentioned above had come into being. Xn4 22:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Hindi words between 10 and 100 are not regularly created. Amongst the language descriptions [here], there are some descriptions of what the author calls "ethnomathematics". Steewi (talk) 01:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't some of the oddities with numbers in the various IE languages due to the fact that Proto-IE used a base-20 counting system? Paul Davidson (talk) 02:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vigesimal#Related_observations brushes that connection, but doesn't make it perfectly clear to me. Are there languages that count something like "eight, nine, onety, onety-one, onety-two, ..."? The article on number names has an overview, though not much on teens. It links to some more pages on numerals in specific languages. See also list of numeral system topics. ---Sluzzelin talk 03:49, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic is just like Hebrew, ahad ashara, ithna ashara, thalath ashara, etc, for the teens, and then uses "wa" for the higher numbers (ahad wa ashrayn, etc). Also, In the higher numbers, feminine endings are used if they are describing something masculine, and vice versa. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:40, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hebrew: On some occasions, such as counting the Omer or in the Avodah during the Mussaf service of Yom Kippur, the custom is to say the smaller number first, For example: in the Omer counting: echad v-esrim yom, shnaim v-esrim, yom; in the Avodah: achat v-shalosh, achat v-arbah. A discussion of this point can be found in the Talmud Yoma 55a. Simonschaim (talk) 15:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sluzzelin, French starts off fairly similar to English but then goes sixty-nine, sixty-ten, sixty-eleven, to sixty-nineteen. Then four-twenties, four-twenties and one, four-twenties two, till four-twenties nine, then one hundred. That's in France. In French-speaking Belgium they use septante and octante meaning seventy and eighty. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quite, Itsmejudith. I was referring to Ferkelparade's observation, that number names in some Romance languages switch the order of digits in their mid-teens. Often between 16 and 17, as in French (seize > dix-sept), Italian (sedici > diciasette), but also Catalan (setze > disset), Sardinian (seighi > deghesette) or Romansh (sedisch > gisiat). Portuguese and Spanish even shift one number earlier (quinze/quince > dezasseis/dezesseis/dieciséis). At the same time, Latin, the mother of Romance languages, and Romanian, are consistent from 11 through 19, always giving units followed by tens. Maybe it has nothing to do with hexadecimal, and maybe there are phonematical reasons for these shifts, but that's what I was referring to. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Switzerland they say septante, huitante. – One of the early Astérix books mentions a Belgian druid named Septantesix, which I didn't get for years! —Tamfang (talk) 04:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about the exceptions in English, eleven and twelve? --141.161.98.54 (talk) 21:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, these are found throughout Germanic.

Latin, at least at some periods, used 'duodeviginti' and 'undeviginti' ('two-from-twenty' and 'one-from-twenty') for 18 and 19. The only parallel I know for this is Finnish, where 8 and 9 are 'kahdeksan' and 'yhdeksän', which are transparently derived from 'kaksi' 2 and 'yksi' 1 respectively.

And English used to have the order described above for German: I know people who still use it in the isolated expression 'five and twenty to' in telling the time. --ColinFine (talk) 23:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the Crosstime Engineer novels by Leo Frankowski (set in medieval Poland), the words used for duodecimal arithmetic – ten, eleven, twelve, oneteen, twoteen, thirteen – are among several points illustrating that the author didn't know any Polish, alas: the pattern break between "twelve" and "thirteen" is (so far as I know) unique to Germanic. —Tamfang (talk) 04:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just have to say that I heard a Finn count to ten yesterday (in a radio interview with Margaret Throsby), and for the first time, I thought "what a cool language". The horrible look of printed Finnish texts has always put me off ever investigating it. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I use the "units and xty" form whenever I'm baking blackbirds in a pie. Deor (talk) 23:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

...his viva in medicine

On the Jose Aboulker page: "...he had his viva in medicine." Per the French Wikipedia page: "... il soutint sa thèse de médecine." How to rewrite the English correctly translated and comprehensible to a speaker of American English, please? -- Deborahjay (talk) 18:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Viva is short for viva voce, usually the final examination that a degree candidate has to pass before receiving a doctorate. Perhaps "defended his thesis in medicine"? Deor (talk) 18:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think "defended his thesis in medicine" is quite right. First degrees in medicine are not research degrees, even if the word "doctor" is in the name. There is no thesis to defend. If the concept of viva voce exam is not familiar to the readers, I'd suggest either calling it an "oral exam" instead, or phrasing it as "... he had his viva (i.e. oral) examination in medicine". --71.162.233.193 (talk) 18:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure about that as it applies to France? With regard to Scotland, Arthur Conan Doyle says "He completed his doctorate on the subject of tabes dorsalis in 1885," which implies to me the writing of a thesis for a first medical degree. Deor (talk) 18:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A first medical degree does not require research/a thesis and is in fact not a doctorate in the U.K. and Ireland. It is a bachelor's degree despite the fact that one may take the title "Doctor". One may go on to receive a Doctorate through research, but it's not neccesary to hold one to be a medical Doctor. Fribbler (talk) 19:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although generally treated as a single degree, it's technically a double bachelors: usually MBChB (Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery) and it's not exclusive to the UK. Gwinva (talk) 22:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But look at the original question and the French expression appearing therein. Soutint sa thèse de médecine can mean nothing but "defended his thesis in medicine"; it's exactly parallel to the American expression. Whatever hoops one has to jump through in the UK or elsewhere to become a doctor, the French WP is definitely saying that Aboulker passed an oral examination on his doctoral thesis. Deor (talk) 23:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For those who read French you can refer to this page [4]. AldoSyrt (talk) 07:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be a confusion between doctorat/doctorale and the student doctor's undergrad medicine degree or similar where viva voce is a routine part of exam requirements in many schools, examples here to start with[5] Question is, was Jose Aboulker a doctoral post grad student and finally awarded a PhD? Julia Rossi (talk) 05:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All evidence I have indicates that he studied medicine in his native Algeria to become a physician, and pursued further qualification (residency) in Paris where eventually practiced medicine as a neurosurgeon. (I use these terms deliberately to avoid confusion with the English-language word "doctor.") The page was initially translated from the French Wikipedia and remains in non-native English that would benefit from comparison to the source (i.e. corrected translation) for proper editing. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The non-native English looks normal to me and non-committal if it is simply saying he did a viva in Algeria. The Fr article doesn't say afaik, that he was onto his doctorate. Vivas are part of exams to be a surgeon too. Neurosurgeons according to wiki do so many years training and include doctorates in the higher options on the way. In the French article, his father was a surgeon (chirurgien) – i can't find a reference there to anyone being a neurosurgeon (neurochirurgien). Unless the french is supported by citation, it's hard to be clear even accepting that it literally translates as him supporting/defending his thesis. That's where your citations to his achievements come into it. I personally wouldn't presume a doctoral thesis since neurosurgeons write a lot of stuff in support of their theses (as in medical propositions) about areas of their field anyway without it being doctoral. Fwiw, Julia Rossi (talk) 08:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The non-native English which appeared suspicious to me was not the initial subject of this query (which I attributed to unfamiliar, possibly Continental, usage), but further on: "...in 1946 he resumed his medicinal studies. He passed the internal examinations at the Hospital of Paris..." [mild emphases mine; original: "...ses études de médecine.Il passa successivement les concours d'interne..."]. Even were we to compare with with the presumed source (under a different heading chronologically), its lacking citations and my own relative unfamiliarity with accreditation for the medical profession in these countries made me hesitate to edit - and bring it to this forum for further scrutiny. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 15:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The internat refers to the last years of the French medical studies. The concours d'interne refers to a competitive examination before the internat years. According to their rank at this examination, medical students choose their teatching hospital, their speciality, etc. At the end of internat the student defends his thesis to get the diplôme d'Etat de docteur en médecine. It is not a research thesis (PhD) but a special kind of thesis called thèse d'exercice. These are medical studies today in France. It was slightly different in those days (circa 1940), and medical studies in Algeria should not be different as those in France at that time. More here [[6]]. AldoSyrt (talk) 20:05, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hand that feeds...and...?

One advantage (or not) of living with randoms in a shared house is the often returned to episodes of drink-fuelled discussions on absolutely nothing. Hence this question, really. If you annoyed someone, there is the existing phrase "Don't bite the hand that feeds you". So is there a "liquid" equivilant for the hand that...well it's not "the hand that drinks you", so "waters"? maybe? Any ideas? doktorb _words^deeds 18:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hand that feeds food and water.Coffsneeze (not Coff N. Sneeze) (talk) 19:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't jog the elbow that pours your drink. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.88.36 (talk) 22:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for both of you. I will advise my mate when he comes back from the pub :) doktorb _words^deeds 20:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Qirlo-Qerlo

Hey i would like to know the meaning of word QIRLO or QERLO

please help me in finding the meaning of this word in any languages —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.233.49.121 (talk) 19:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not found in google. Where did you get it from? Julia Rossi (talk) 08:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bless your (his/her etc.) cotton socks

Where does this expression orginate? Does it have a historical background?84.136.158.195 (talk) 20:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)frau[reply]

One theory is that it's to do with the missionary George Cotton, Anglican Bishop of Calcutta in the late 1850s and early 1860s, who sent home appeals for clothing for local children, stressing the need for warm socks, which he thought were the key to health. So women knitted lots of little woolly socks and sent them off, and on arrival in Calcutta Bishop Cotton literally blessed everything he received. Cotton's socks, cotton socks? It's possible, at least. Xn4 22:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the Gospel of Matthew, the Sermon on the Mount (chapters 5 - 7) the scribe records the qualities of heavenly residents, as seen by the orator. The tenth beatitude says "Blessed are ye that weareth garments of woven shibboleth to shroud thine metatarsal phalanges".

Biblical scholars have puzzled on this cryptic parabola and the semantics in Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew. The noted Sephardic Rabbinical scholar Timus Tinnittus has proposed the translation of "Tiptoe thru the tulips", eschwing all references to cotton socks... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're in fine form, Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM! Have you been at the dandelion wine again? Xn4 23:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And let it be known (to both of you): "Lol". Fribbler (talk) 23:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The simplest explanation is that it is what you say to a child, wearer of (little cotton) socks rather than (longer woollen or silk) stockings. The expression is thus rather dated since adults also wear socks these days. It is said when the child has said something endearingly naive. "Ah, bless!" is an alternative. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wear cotton socks. Is that why people don't respect my hypothetical gray hairs? —Tamfang (talk) 04:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Two years later I had a few grey hairs. —Tamfang (talk) 04:10, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course metatarsal phalanges makes as much sense as nasal chin. —Tamfang (talk) 04:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

June 24

Etymology of 'extemporise'

Any one know the etymology of the the word 'extemporise' (meaning to improvise)?--ProperFraction (talk) 00:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It comes from extemporaneous, which is from Latin "ex tempore", according to M-W. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So why would 'out of time' mean to improvise?--ProperFraction (talk) 00:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In classical Latin, ex tempore ("[arising] out of the time") was used to mean "on the spur of the moment." Deor (talk) 01:09, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh good! OK, now, why "spur of the moment"? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You could also translate it as "out of the occasion." Does that make it clearer? Deor (talk) 01:54, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure! But I was wondering now about "spur of the moment" -- it's an interesting usage -- I wonder if it's a Shakespeare invention? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I misunderstood you. Apparently not; the earliest citation of "on the spur of the moment" in the OED is from 1801. I assume it's somehow related to the preceding phrase recorded there: "on the spur," meaning "with the utmost haste" (clearly derived from spurring a horse), which dates back to the 16th century. Deor (talk) 02:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh! Arising at the time and not preplanned. I see! Thanks--ProperFraction (talk) 01:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

looking for the word for

someone who is (or, the act of being) opportunistic at someone else's misfortune —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.206.220 (talk) 03:55, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A profiteer (see also war profiteering) or, depending on context, maybe a speciesist word like vulture, leech, shark, or magpie will fit? ---Sluzzelin talk 04:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An "exploiter", or, in slang, perhaps "a user". StuRat (talk) 11:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you used the best word in your question: "opportunist". Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That was my first thought as well, but in fact "opportunist" just means taking advantage of a situation (e.g. "an opportunist goal"). It doesn't have that connotation of exploiting someone else's misfortune. There is the wonderful German word Schadenfreude, meaning taking pleasure in someone else's misfortune, but that doesn't have the connotation of taking advantage. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 12:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. An "opportunist" always takes advantage of opportunities, but this may, or may not, be at the expense of others. StuRat (talk) 21:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A "manipulator" has unscrupulous aims, usually. See manipulation. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

thematic priorities

what is meant by 'thematic priorities'? or what are 'thematic priorities'? please clarify. thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.43.251.227 (talk) 07:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine it means which themes are most important, in, say, a book. I'd have to see the context to be more specific. StuRat (talk) 11:00, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Asya

<moved from the humanities desk for translation and answers Julia Rossi (talk) 11:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)>[reply]
Saan nagmula ang pangalan ng Asya? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.60.241.80 (talk) 09:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Philippines? Julia Rossi (talk) 11:32, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nagmumula ang pangalang Asya sa salitang Asia ng Espanyol, na may etimolohiya sa salitang Asia (Ασία), isang panauhan sa mitolohiyang Griyego, anak ni Oceanos (Ωκεανός; Oceanus) at Tethys (Τηθύς), mangingibig ni Iapetos (Ιαπετός), isang Titano, nanay ni Prometheus (Προμηθεύς), Epimethus (Επιμηθεύς), Atlas (Άτλας) at Menoitios (Μενοίτιος). Sana naisagot ko nang wasto ang tanong mo. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 12:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Translation: The name Asya came from the Spanish Asia, derived from the Greek Asia (Ασία), a character from Greek mythology, daughter of Oceanos (Ωκεανός; Oceanus) and Tethys (Τηθύς), lover of Iapetos (Ιαπετός), a Titan, and mother of Prometheus (Προμηθεύς), Epimethus (Επιμηθεύς), Atlas (Άτλας) and Menoitios (Μενοίτιος). I hope I have answered your question succinctly.)

Time was

Time was when I could remember the names of my friends, for example. This is an accepted idiom, yet its construction seems very unorthodox. Where did it come from, and how did it become part of the rich tapestry of English? -- JackofOz (talk) 14:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know whether this is relevant, but one old (c. 1555) usage appears in How Fryer Bacon made a Brasen head to speake, by the which hee would have walled England about with Brasse, a chapter in The Famous Historie of Fryer Bacon, by anonymous, on which Robert Greene's play Friar Bacon and Friar Bungay is based.

The songs by angry, ignorant Miles shift in response to the magical speaking brazen head's spoken words "Time is" (>> "Time is for some to plant / Time is for some to sowe;...") to "Time was" (>> "Time was when thou a Kettle / wert fill'd with better matter:...") and finally "Time is past" (after which the head collapses, and the friars will see their entire labour lost, because Miles neglected to wake them in time, while time still was, but had not yet been). ---Sluzzelin talk 15:17, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest references given in the OED are "the tyme hath ben, nat longe before our dayes" (Alexander Barclay, 1509) and "the tyme was, when it was nedefull" (Myles Coverdale, 1549). --Richardrj ^talk ^email 15:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's from Latin "tempus erat"? Sometimes archaic-sounding English is directly translated from Latin (although to me, this seems more usual for the nineteenth century than the sixteenth). Adam Bishop (talk) 15:44, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. It's not the sort of language you'd find in normal conversation, in my experience. I tend to associate it with avuncular old-timers, who by definition have "old times" to remember and talk about (or forget), and sometimes use quaint forms of expression (quaint to their younger listeners, that is). It still surprises me that it's become cemented in; I'd expect "The time was when ..." or "A time was when ..." would have had better chances. Maybe it was "the time was" at some stage, and it's become abbreviated to "time was" through colloquial use. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible to be ambitious without being pretentious?

Being ambitious involves striving for something above the current level of achievement of you and your peers. Your non-ambitious peers may see this as pretension. Is there any way around this, before the event? (After the event you will either have succeeded, in which case you will have a new elevated status; or failed in which case your pretentiousness will bwe confirmed.) Thanks. 80.2.202.175 (talk) 15:51, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Being ambitious is striving to be more successful in the future, while being pretentious is pretending to be more successful currently than you really are. It certainly is possible to be the former and not the later. Also, you may want to maintian a different persona for your friends versus coworkers. The most obvious example of this was a black coworker of mine who spoke excellent English at work, but when I heard him on the phone with his friends he was talking ghetto slang. I imagine he also wore different clothes and acted differently with them, too. StuRat (talk) 20:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Many years ago while I was a student, a lecturer said he thought some artwork I had been commissioned to do by an art gallery was pretentious. So was he misusing the word pretentious? I had already achieved the doing of the work, I was not pretending to be more succesful than I was. 80.2.201.59 (talk) 22:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the context of art it has a slightly different meaning. Perhaps he meant you were trying to emulate the style of one of the masters when you clearly hadn't yet mastered the basics. However, art is so subjective that I wouldn't pay much attention to critics in that field. StuRat (talk) 22:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although his English at work is not necessarily a sign of ambition, he may be speaking differently to "fit in" or to have you guys understand what he's saying. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To the original poster: When you say you're looking for a "way around this", are you looking for a semantic way around it? So are you asking for a definition of "pretentious" that would make it incompatible with ambition? Or are you asking for a way to make your friends realise that your "claim to importance" is justified? I would assume the latter if this question was on the Misc desk but here, I'm not so sure. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just wondering if it is possible to be ambitious without risking being accused of pretentiousness. Both words have the common theme of striving, so I'm wondering if there are any circumstances where you do not get both together. 80.2.201.59 (talk) 22:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to the art world. "Pretentious" in that context is a subjective insult unless the person using the word can explain what they mean by it. You were right not to take it personally/seriously – since the gallery was happy, that is an evaluation in itself. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As StuRat says above, the word has a different meaning in the context of art. However, I don't much care for Stu's example definition either. It may mean that the art is attempting to express a degree of profundity which it doesn't actually possess. Julia is spot on, however; you shouldn't worry about it. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 05:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think any art work could be accussed of being pretentious, until it has been around for a while. I think the lecturer may have been jealous about me getting commissioned by an art gallery even while a student. Jeaousy seems to be rife in the art world, with little or no professionalism. 80.0.97.107 (talk) 12:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As you are finding out, wise one, jealousy, insecurity, and lack of ability is rife and so abitrary pecking orders, put-downs, and other undermining unqualified slings and arrows are meant to put you off your game. Don't give them the advantage, gallery-on, 80.0.97... Julia Rossi (talk) 03:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True, although you forgot to include the manipulation, backstabbing, harassment, and dog in the manger which I found even at college, where I would have previously expected the staff to be above that. 80.2.199.66 (talk) 21:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Quoi vs. que and other French grammar questions...

Okay, I know this is the English 'pedia, but I don't really speak enough French to ask on the French one, so I'm hoping there's a Francophone or two out there who can help me with this ...

I studied French all throughout high school (about 10 years ago) and briefly in college. One thing that has always confused me (and still does) is the difference between "quoi" and "que". Recently, I happened to find the lyrics to the French version of "The Nightmare Before Christmas". The song "What's this?" became "Que vois-je?" ("What do I see?"). Why is this que vois-je and not quoi vois-je? That whole sentence is an inversion of "je vois quoi" ("I see what" -> "What see I"), right? So how come "quoi" became "que"?

On that same note, I vividly remember being told in my high school French classes that you're never supposed to invert the first person when asking questions. So, if you wanted to ask where you were, you would say, "Ou est-ce que je suis", but never "ou suis-je". Now, I get that this is a song in a musical and doesn't necessarily have to be grammatical perfect, but is that really a rule, and why? Do French speakers really consider it strange-sounding or otherwise improper to invert "je"?

Sorry for the non-English-related question, but I really haven't found a source to answer these questions. Thanks for your help. Dgcopter (talk) 19:32, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Quoi" is a subject and "que" is an object. It is "que vois-je" because "que" is the object of "vois". I don't think you can say "je vois quoi", can you? Maybe if it introduces an indirect question, assuming "quoi" and "que" work just like their Latin roots "quid" and "quod". For the second question, I remember learning that too, it just sounds weird to invert "je", just like it sounds weird to invert most questions in English (we don't say "what see I?" either, it's "what do I see?", except it extends to all the pronouns for us). Adam Bishop (talk) 01:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How quoi became que? I dont know and there is no answer in my French grammar. The usual form is que as an object or an attribute: Que chantes-tu ? However quoi is used when it is not the first word of the sentence (without inversion): Il t'a dit quoi ? Que or quoi are used when the verb is at the infinitive mood. Que faire ? or Quoi faire ? The latter, Quoi faire ? seems to be more colloquial. There is not a unique rule… French is not easy and its grammar not easy to explain AldoSyrt (talk) 21:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does this analogy make sense? que:quoi :: me:moi :: te:toi —Tamfang (talk) 04:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It makes sense from an historical point of view. The latin word quid evolves to a stressed form quoi and an unstressed form que. Same evolution to a stressed form moi and to an unstressed form me. But if we take a look at the present usage, there remains no analogy. The pronoun me, object complement, is directly jointed (linked) to the verb: Il me voit. (voir me) The pronoun moi is separate from the verb: C'est moi qu'il a vu. (voir que and que = moi). My reference: Maurice Grevisse - Le bon usage - Grammaire française, 12e ed., Duculot 1988. – AldoSyrt (talk) 19:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Où suis-je?" (note the accent on the u) sounds OK to me, actually. The French would pronounce the last two sounds together, so that it sounds something like "sweej". And by the way, there's absolutely no need to apologise. This desk is for queries on all languages, not just English. It's just the posts themselves that need to be in English. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 05:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is a little bit more complex. Inverting the first person when asking question is correct (however it is polished style) in general. You should not invert when the verb, at the present tense, does not end with the letter e. We do not say Meurs-je ? but Est-ce que je meurs ? There are exceptions, we say Puis-je or Est-ce que je peux. There are other forbidden inversions with the verb être and the subject ce, third person and simple past tense, etc. AldoSyrt (talk) 20:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A bit off to the left, but what grammatical form is "puis" in "puis-je?" I thought it was the subjunctive, but that would be "puisse"...72.219.143.150 (talk) 06:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pouvoir, first person (indicative mood) present: je peux or je puis. This latter belongs to literary language. Puis-je ? is less literary but is polished style. Pouvoir, first person, subjunctive mood, present: que je puisse. AldoSyrt (talk) 06:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, ok, I get it. Merci!72.219.143.150 (talk) 22:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2008-06-24 C > WIKIPEDIA = A NEW BWORD IN THE BLOGOSPHERE??

Our pretty nice website/blog: <point made, promotional link removed as per wiki policy> has just been listed as a link on another terrific blog:<promotional link removed>. In thanking our host for this kind inclusion it occurred to me that I was expressing my appreciation for a "BLINK" or Web-Link. I checked Wiki's wonderful resource info on the word "BLOG" and its various permutations but did not find "BLINK." Consequently, I'm thinking that this usage may constitute a major contribution to the lives of all of my fellow ether bunnies. Am I correct that in this useage "Blink" is an original word and that I may have coined a new cyber term? Keep up the great work. CrashCrashf8s (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blink is already an existing word. In the context of digital media, the word 'link' is fairly unambiguous, so there isn't really any void to fill with a new expression. While 'link' accurately defines what you refer to as a Web-Link, 'log' on the other hand does not do the same for a blog. Thus, the word blog added something new and useful, while your 'blink' doesn't. Thus, it isn't likely to catch on, IMO. On the other hand 'fugly' seems to be established in some groups, so who knows, words that mean the same thing with a gratuitous letter at the beginning may have a future after all./Kriko (talk) 21:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The word link is already an abbreviation for hyperlink, and you will find no link on the web that is not a "web link". --141.161.98.54 (talk) 22:09, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that's not quite true! Examples: irc://irc.freenode.net/#wikipedia, news://alt.fan.warlord, mailto:greyknightisawesome@example.org. The World Wide Web and the Internet are not the same thing. However, "blog links" don't seem to be distinguishable in anyway I can see. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 12:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that some of those links—at least the news: one—are still part of the World Wide Web, despite not using the Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP). The World Wide Web, as originally conceived, brought together both the existing protocols and the new HTTP and HTML technologies. Here's an old presentation by Tim Berners-Lee stating explicitly that the World Wide Web "envelops" the other protocols. See also this WWW FAQ. -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:25, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bah, what would timbl know about it? ;-) --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 20:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No point in asking him now, he's off slaying dragons and such... although I guess you might run into him now and then... -- Coneslayer (talk) 12:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eat your "vége"

What does "vége" mean in English ? I think it's Italian. It appeared at the end of a Powerpoint Slide Show sent to me via e-mail, with "Time to Say Goodbye", sung by Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman. StuRat (talk) 20:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be the hungarian for end? See here: [7]. Fribbler (talk) 21:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could be, but that link doesn't work. StuRat (talk) 22:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see that. Well, it's just this page with vége punched into the Hungarian-English dictionary. Fribbler (talk) 22:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, that looks like it. Thanks ! StuRat (talk) 22:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is Italian for "eat your vegetable".Coffsneeze (not Coff N. Sneeze) (talk) 22:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Language differences between British and American English

my question is:

In terms of a hotel, what does Full Board and Half Board mean? We don't use those terms in America. At least I have never heard them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.231.202 (talk) 23:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Full board means all meals are included (breakfast, lunch and evening meal). Half board means breakfast and one other meal is included. The next step down is "Bed and Breakfast" (breakfast only) and if no meals are included it's "Self-Catering".Fribbler (talk) 23:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To me, "self-catering" implies that there are facilities for guests to prepare their own meals. I'd say the next step down from B&B is "room only". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:38, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the info.98.194.231.202 (talk) 00:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

June 25

French translation

Hiya ... i work for a children's book publishing company and we have a product that is to be pitched in France . What i'm after is the verification of a translation of a coupla terms :

Solution | La solution
Show Outline | Montrez le contour
Hide outline | Cachez le contour
Play again | ????

Are these correct including no accents etc? Thanks for any help :1 Boomshanka (talk) 01:45, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first three look OK to me, although if they are menu items I would be tempted to leave out the 'la' and 'le'. For the fourth one I would go with "Jouez encore". --Richardrj ^talk ^email 05:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For children I would say Solution or La solution, Montre le contour, Cache le contour, Rejoue. (For children tu is used instead of you. See T-V distinction). AldoSyrt (talk) 06:36, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thanks for all your help :1 Boomshanka (talk) 00:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd use the infinitive (montrer, cacher, jouer) for the menu commands. If the context is what I guess it is, they are not imperatives to the reader (of any age), but invitations to the user to click if they want the computer to do something. (Clique(z) ici pour montrer...) —Tamfang (talk) 04:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What does "great primer" mean?

What does "double pica" mean?

68.148.164.166 (talk) 04:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can you quote the contexts in which you have seen these phrases, please? --Richardrj ^talk ^email 05:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They're old-fashioned typographical terms. Nowadays the size of type s described using a measurement in points or millimeters; for example, the ordinary text of a book or newspaper is usually about 10 points. But at one time different sizes had names. Here [8] is a list of many of those named sizes: as you see, "great primer" is 18-point type and "double pica" is 24 points. --Anonymous, 05:39 UTC, June 25, 2008.

spelling

The old spellers were highly reliable and accurate when guessing a misspelled word. I would call them professional. Then apparently some teachers began complaining that students were unable to spell without relying on a computer so at their request speller engines were handicapped to correct spelling errors only to a limited extent. This is great for teachers who want their students to be forced to learn how to spell but worthless and time consuming for adults engaged in high speed writing or who are using a speech to text converter who need the computer to correct spelling errors so they can concentrate on content and on context, etc. How can I replace the student handicapped school teacher speller with a professional speller in Firefox especially? -- adaptron (talk) 06:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I find it hard to believe that general-purpose software was made worse to please school teachers. Reference? --Sean 14:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I don't know where you heard this but it certainly is not true. -Elmer Clark (talk) 21:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would be very surprised, but interested, if that were true. Fribbler (talk) 22:45, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/EC#Initialism

What does "Edge Combiner" mean?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/EC#Initialism?68.148.164.166 (talk) 00:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From web search results, the term seems to refer to a type of digital electronic circuit with multiple inputs and a single output. An edge (i.e. high-low or low-high voltage transition) in any of the inputs will cause the output of the circuit to toggle (i.e. to transition from high to low, or the other way around, depending on the current state of the output). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.233.98 (talk) 04:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generative_music#Noatikl

What does "not transformational" mean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generative_music#Interactive.2FBehavioural)?

What does "left" mean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generative_music#Noatikl)?

68.148.164.166 (talk) 04:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first one is kind of defined by the foregoing text, i.e. "generated by a system component that ostensibly has no inputs", although that isn't much of a definition either. The second one just means "left on its own", i.e. the music is generated without the need for any human input. Come to think of it, that's probably what the first one is trying to say as well. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 05:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the etymology?68.148.164.166 (talk) 08:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, which word are you asking about the etymology of? --Richardrj ^talk ^email 08:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Transormational".68.148.164.166 (talk) 00:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Transformational" in the context seems to refer to processes or mechanisms akin to "transducers" in automata theory—something that takes an external input (sequence) and produces an output (sequence). Something "not transformational", based on that interpretation, works like "generators" in automata theory—the output (sequence) is affected only by the mechanism's internal state and possibly some internal source of randomness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.233.98 (talk) 05:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That page, Generative music, is not well written. It looks like you would have to read the cited source (Wooller, R, et.al., 2005) to learn exactly what is meant by the various terms like "transformational", "inputs", etc. I think what it is trying to say is that in an "interactive" generative system there are some things that only a person can cause to happen. These things have no "inputs" within the system, meaning the system itself cannot cause them to happen. I'd also guess that these "things" are ways of transforming the algorithmic structure that is generating the music. Some generative systems are "self-transformational", meaning they can trigger changes to their own algorithmic structure. A "non transformational" system, I would guess, can't do this, but is instead interactive, with a person triggering the transformations. I don't have a good understanding of generative music and don't really understand the terms. But I think generative music systems sometimes use "transformational music grammars". Musical grammar is a complex topic with a lot of technical jargon, and I barely understand it. You could probably learn more about the meaning of terms like "transformational" by reading pages like Transformational grammar (music grammars are based on linguistic theories), Transformational theory, Rewrite rule, Chomsky hierarchy, and perhaps some of the external links on Koan (program). Pfly (talk) 16:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

June 26

What is the plural of "how-to" when used as a noun?

Is it how-tos, how-to's, howtos, etc.? --Sonjaaa (talk) 03:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's no justification for either removing the hyphen or adding an apostrophe, so I'd go with how-tos or "how-to"s. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(econ) :This machine's popup says how-tos so it looks like the apostrophe for this plural has been phased out pretty much. Julia Rossi (talk) 03:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it should ever have been phased in, in the first place. -- JackofOz (talk) 11:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion is not to pluralize "how-to", but instead use it attributively to modify a more familiar noun—something like "how-to articles". --71.162.249.44 (talk) 13:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That works. But sometimes you have to put words into the mouth of a speaker rather than a writer, and speakers do talk about "dos and don'ts", and "let's not concern ourselves with the how-tos and how-not-tos but focus on the principle", etc. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:38, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In versus On

Is the use of one preposition over the other more appropriate ... or is either acceptable in the following context? Is there any difference in meaning between the two?

Context 1: (a person) John is on the list. -- (versus) -- John is in the list.

Context 2: (a person's name) John's name is on the list. -- (versus) -- John's name is in the list.

The above are generically contrived sentences, of course. But I am looking for correct grammar / usage / word choice in instances such as:

All of the doctors in/on this list will accept your insurance plan. OR The names of all donors in/on this list will be forwarded to the senior vice president.

The actual sentence that prompted my question was: Each of the actors in this list has appeared in two or more Oscar-winning films.

Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Based on the 9 prepositional uses of on here, I'd say that Context 1 should be in. Personally, I'd still go with in for Context 2 although it could be argued that number 1 (or 5) on that list might work. I would use on if it the context was:

Context 3: (something tangible) The ink with which John's name is written is on the page representing the list.

Or for anything intangible that could be said to have an upper surface or the ability to be touched from above. It may depend on dialect in a similar way to the example at Preposition and postposition#Word choice. I wonder if there's any context where the choice makes an impact on the meaning. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 07:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both in or on are possible with list. It depends on whether the speaker thinks of the list as being written on a 2-dimensional surface like a piece of paper (where you use on) or as an abstract 3-dimensional container (where you use in). Many things can be conceptualized as either 2-D or 3-D. Compare these contrasts:

He's standing on the corner
She's sitting in the corner

You stand on a 2-D surface but you can sit inside a 3-D corner.

He's sitting on the chair
She's sitting in the chair

sitting on the chair focuses on the contact between body & 2-D sitting surface, sitting in the chair focuses on the chair having 3 dimensions. Note how benches are conceived as being essentially a 2-D object (without 3-D sides), which makes the in the bench semantically odd:

He's sitting on the bench
?She's sitting in the bench

Same with streets. Either focus on street surface or as container-like object.

They're playing on the street
They're playing in the street

Many chucks of linguistic discourse like paper, word, sentence, speech, joke, story, novel, conversation are viewed in English metaphorically as 3-D containers. This is why they can be used with in or out of (The character appears in that story, I couldnt get any meaning out of her speech). This 3-D linguistic container metaphor is part of the larger English conduit metaphor of communication, written about by Michael Reddy (Metalanguage#Role_in_metaphor).

Many instances of prepositions are idiomatic in English like stand on queue, stand in line, something on my mind, something in mind. Sometimes you can see how they appear to be frozen examples of a particular conceptualization of space. – ishwar (speak) 13:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For this wondering: "I wonder if there's any context where the choice makes an impact on the meaning", there is definitely a difference with objects that are primarily conceptualized as 3-D objects like houses, cars, etc.

They're sitting on the house
They're sitting in the house

Since houses are 3-D, using on means you have to think of a 2-D surface on the top of the 3-D house. The contrast between these is quite apparent. – ishwar (speak) 13:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that. It definitely helps me articulate what I'm about to ask :). Doesn't the choice depend on whether the speaker thinks of the list as being a 2D surface? I would say that a list is an example of an "abstract 3D container" (the page with the names written on it is just a representation of the list) but Wiktionary disagrees. That's why I thought that in is better. The abstract list could be written on a peice of paper but the list would still be abstract, right? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think so. The list would be 2D by it being on a 2D surface (e.g. paper). Other dictionaries say that a list is a series of words or numbers (not mentioning its dimensions). Personally, I think that I like using on the list over in the list, but I can use either one. And you can find several thousands of examples of both with google. Also you can refer to either 2D or 3D by talking about the removal of an item of the list:

I took/got his name off the list (2D list)
I took/got his name out of the list (3D list)

Compare:

I stepped off the mat (2D mat)
I stepped out of the house (3D house)

An interesting thing is how on and in are used for units of time. Time doesnt have any actual dimensions, but metaphorically 1D, 2D, and 3D conceptualizations of the time units are used: at 3:00, on Monday, in June. Generally the smaller units of can be 1D points while larger units are often 2D or 3D. Larger units cant be 1D very easily, so ?I went to work at Monday is odd. But, it's somewhat complicated. And maybe the metaphors are now just frozen idiomatic constructions. – ishwar (speak) 19:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that I might disagree with you (regarding in vs on with respect to list) because of the possibility of many copies of a list. Say I have 500 identical copies of a list on 500 pieces of paper. How many lists are there? I would say that there's only one abstract 3D list but 500 2D representations of that list. Wiktionary would say (and you would agree, no?) that there are 500 lists. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 19:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the more I think about this the more I realise that you're right and the 2D definition of list is a better definition. Thank you. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 20:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have a life

Is there any way to say "I have a life" civilly? Is "I have other social endeavors besides Wikipedia" the equivalent? It doesn't seem like it, say, what happens if I like to taste wine alone at my kitchen table by myself? That excludes sociality. And "I have a nonwikipedia life" doesn't cut it, because taking a crap and piss wouldn't be my kind of pastime...... Is there any one noun, of not, any one word? If not a hyphenated word (/compound word)? Or a space compound word?68.148.164.166 (talk) 06:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Having a life means different things to different people, but what's wrong with words such as successful, independent, outgoing, ambitious, street-wise, cool, fashionable, and so on?...--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What was the charge, 68.148, that you feel you have to justify yourself? Without that, there are many uncivil one-worders out there. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, it was just an argument on wikipedia.68.148.164.166 (talk) 08:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mesleems

What is this word in the Finnegans Wake? You can see the context here: [9]. And why isn't there an apostrophe in the title? I know that anything unusual is usual in Joyce. More information if you have, please. --Omidinist (talk) 07:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The lack of an apostrophe in the title leads to an intentional ambiguity. It could mean "the wake of Finnegan" (wake meaning waking up, or a funeral wake). Or it could mean "many Finnegans wake up". As with so much of Finnegans Wake, the wordplay is dense, allusive and impossible to gloss. As for "mesleems", your guess is as good as mine. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 08:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Taking a stab with the context nicely supplied, the Hooth are the Baloch people who are predominately Muslim, and perhaps then, mesleems refers to Muslims with further play I won't tackle here. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To save further people the trouble, the quote reads "Rise up, man of the hooths, you have slept so long! Or is it only so mesleems?" My first thought when reading it was that "mesleems" contains echoes of "sleep" (referring back to "slept") and "seems". You could maybe gloss the second sentence as "Or does it only seem so?" --Richardrj ^talk ^email 10:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's also like "methinks", so "me seems" (seems to me), and "me sleeps" also, like dreams. A nice play of light with "wake" and "sleep", "seems" and "dreams", like half waking, half sleeping, that holy, illusory, hallucinating bracket between both... Luscious, isn't it. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To Richardrj ... you say that the lack of an apostrophe could indicate: "the wake of Finnegan" (wake meaning waking up, or a funeral wake). Or it could mean "many Finnegans wake up". Doesn't the "missing" apostrophe directly point to your #2 option (plural Finnegan) and specifically exclude your #1 option (possessive Finnegan)? Just wondering ...? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 10:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Hi Joseph. I see what you mean, but Joyce was interested in bending the rules of language and syntax. The last part of Ulysses, for example, contains a 4000-word sentence with no punctuation marks at all. So I don't think Joyce was too fastidious about these things, and the lack of an apostrophe shouldn't be taken as fixing the title to one particular meaning. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 10:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, one can hardly pin him down on anything, it would seem ... Thanks ... (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 11:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC))[reply]

According to Joyce's Waking Women: An Introduction to Finnegans Wake by Sheldon Brivic, page 89, Hooth refers to the Hill of Howth where the man to whom she is calling lies buried. Brivic connects mesleems and Muslim too: "[...] linking woman's view to the other world, she fears that her recognition of his death is 'only Muslim' or impious illusion." (Of course this doesn't devalue anything said above. Just thought I'd add an interpretation by someone who has published several books on Joyce. Exploring FW's evocations in their full plasticity and ambiguity is more appropriate, than trying to give a definite interpretation). ---Sluzzelin talk 12:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. I wouldn't put it past Joyce to have fossicked further language-wise. Maybe Sheldon didn't have the wiki article... Bit of a dig (not Joyce's) at Muslims I'd 'a thought – superficially anyway. ; )) Julia Rossi (talk) 12:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

English-language term for SS person-unit

What is the proper term in English for referring in the third person to an individual (male) of unknown rank who served in the SS (not necessarily the Waffen-SS)?

"SS soldier" – inappropriate (?) since the SS wasn't an army.
"SS trooper" – little evidence of this
"SS member" – weak; doesn't indicate function
"SS man" – looks suspiciously like a faux ami translation of SS-Mann, the rank of private.
??

This is for captioning archival photos, so I'm seeking language that's accurate and reflects the available level of detail (i.e. lacking specifics). -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"SS Paramilitary" may work as an alternative. In the UK, paramilitary is used to describe an organisation or an individual within a paramilitary organisation. - X201 (talk) 09:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The very article you link to uses the terms "SS member" and "SS personnel". You could also use "officer of the SS" or "reservist in the SS". Paul Davidson (talk) 11:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In principle and in practice, I don't accept the wording of a Wikipedia article as an authoritative source of terminology unless that topic is expressly treated in the text. (N.B. I will move this discussion to the article's Talk page when conclusions are reached.) Meanwhile, I would no more use "SS member" than I would LAPD member, and I suspect "officer" refers to a command position and not simply as with a "police officer" at any level. And why "reservist"? My problem is that I lack information beyond that of a uniformed man serving in the SS. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just read the entry on SS in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (vol. 4, pp. 1399-1404), and not once does the case I require come up. There are soldiers of the "militarized" Waffen-SS, SS guards on the staffs of camps, and officers in command positions — but no particular word I could use as a term for one of the SS rank and file. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Member of the SS" or "SS member" sounds okay to me. I don't understand the objection "doesn't indicate function" since there are no details anyway. Clarityfiend (talk) 18:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Verb tense

I found the following sentence in Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance:

His thesis not be a part of a substantive field, because to accept a split into substantive
and methodological was to deny the existence of Quality.

Is the verb here correct? What tense is it? Mr.K. (talk) 12:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reminds me of "Here be dragons" or "There be whales!", but I have nothing more than that... -- Coneslayer (talk) 12:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I actually think that looks like a typo in the original text. The sentence is confirmed by this page, but I can't imagine why Pirsig would have written it like that. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 12:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I can imagine a context in which that might just work, but in isolation it's very odd indeed. It seems to be missing "could", "would", "should" or "might". -- JackofOz (talk) 12:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or "may", if you ask me. Kreachure (talk) 15:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS To me the phrase sounds like it's being spoken by a stereotypical western movie Native American who is currently working on his PhD. :) Kreachure (talk) 15:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it International Talk Like a Pirate Day already? Clarityfiend (talk) 18:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unless it's that English way of saying "put kettle on" whatever that dialect is. But again, why Pirsig... Julia Rossi (talk) 06:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like Lancashire. But the Lancastrians I've encountered claim they say "Put t' kettle on" and listeners don't pick up on the t'. Yes, not very Pirsig-like, is it, unless he was quoting someone. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Per definite article reduction, it's more of a Yorkshire than a Lancashire thing, although it's still present in both. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 13:38, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Whether"

I just read what I wrote on the Miscellaneous Reference Desk:

I didn't know whether they spoke English or German...

I intended this to mean "I didn't know whether they spoke any of the following languages: English and German". But it can just as easily be understood as: "I didn't know which language they spoke. English? Or German?". Finnish avoids this ambiguity, by having two different words for "or": tai is used for the former, vai for the latter. Is there a similar distinction in English? Or in any other non-Finnish language? JIP | Talk 21:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Latin also distinguishes between vel (inclusive or: and/or) and aut (exclusive or: either.. or..). But this is OR. ---Sluzzelin talk 22:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In English, you could have disambiguated by writing "I didn't know whether or not they spoke either English or German". Latin in fact has four words for "or", in addition to vel and aut, there's an and sive (not to mention the enclitic -ve, which is a variant of vel, and seu, which is a variant of sive). In this case, in Latin you'd probably use Nescivi utrum Anglice an Germanice locuti sint if you mean "they spoke either English or German, but I didn't know which" and Nescivi num ~~vel~~ Anglice vel Germanice locuti sint if you mean "I didn't know whether they'd understand me if I spoke to them in either English or German (though they might have understood me if I'd been able to speak to them in Yindjibarndi or Chichewa)." (Sluzzelin, you're such a punny guy.) —An gr 22:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question: Would JIP's second meaning be achieved if there was a comma after "English"? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:26, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that would be less ambiguous than JIP's version, but Angr's idea is better. Except "whether or not" is redundant in this case. "I didn't know whether they spoke either English or German" conveys the message quite effectively. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the redundancy was intentional, to make doubly sure the disambiguated meaning was understood. (As the Germans say, Doppelt hält besser.) Alternatively, the "either" could be removed: "I didn't know whether or not they spoke English or German" is also unambiguous. On further reflection, the doubling of vel in the second Latin sentence above is unnecessary, so I've amended it above. —An gr 15:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Polish I would say the sentence in the first meaning:

Nie wiedziałem, czy mówili po angielsku czy po niemiecku.

And in the other meaning:

Nie wiedziałem, czy mówili po angielsku lub po niemiecku.

The latter uses the word lub which is the usual Polish equivalent of "or". The former repeats the word czy which in this case is the equivalent of "whether" (in other cases it may be also used for asking questions). — Kpalion^(talk) 21:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

June 27

a / an

Why is it "an umbrella" but "a user"? FT2 ^{(Talk | email)}

Our article on a and an says this:

"some words starting with vowels may have a preceding a because they are pronounced as if beginning with an initial consonant. "Ewe" and "user" have a preceding a because they are pronounced with an initial y consonant sound."

— Matt Eason ^{(Talk  Contribs)} 02:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Such as an um... and a yewser. Y is the unwritten consontant Julia Rossi (talk) 06:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For much the same reason we might say "an hour from now" rather than "a hour from now", despite h being a consonant. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 06:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In other words, the choice of a or an is governed entirely by the pronunciation, not by the spelling. (Although there's a sort-of exception with some words starting with "h": some say "a hotel", but others prefer "an hotel", even if they aspirate the h.) -- JackofOz (talk) 13:26, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard "an hotel", but I say "an historic" (as in This is an historical phenomenon noticed first in Ancient Greece...) instead of "a historic". СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 22:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

chanbara-go

I've occasionally heard that samurai cinema uses an artificial dialect. What's distinctive about it? (I don't understand enough Japanese to tell if the language in samurai movies is any different from that in modern settings.) Is it comparable to the rustic talk sometimes heard in Westerns? —Tamfang (talk) 04:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hebrew

In Hebrew, are books opened from the opposite of English language books (i.e. with the spine on the right-hand side) since the script is written right to left? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 06:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly. The spine is on the right-hand side as you look at the cover, open the book to view the cover page, etc. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:26, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The same is true for Arabic (I even have some Arabic textbooks that are mostly in English, aside from the examples and exercises and such, but it also opens right-to-left). Adam Bishop (talk) 06:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic for "network"?

What would the Arabic term be for "network," as in a computer network or telecommunications network? -- And, most key of all, would anyone mind transliterating that word into English or IPA for me? Thank you. I've been searching around the Internet without any luck. --Brasswatchman (talk) 07:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did you check the network article? :) It points you to ar:شبكة, "shabaka" in English transliteration, and /ʃæbəkə/ in IPA. "Shabaka" is the usual word for electricity/telecommunications/computers etc, although it can also mean any kind of net, like a fishing net or a spiderweb. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

private

Isn't "private" kind of ambiguous in this case:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_Historical_Society? What does "private" exactly mean? I mean, "private" could mean that it is "only open to invitees" or possibly "does not accept public donations", or something else.68.148.164.166 (talk) 09:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That organization describes itself as "a private non-profit organization" on its website, so whatever ambiguity there may be in the Wikipedia article's wording may be a result of how that organization describes itself. From their website, you'll find that the SCHS does invite the public to join and to make donations to them, so neither of your two interpretations is what the word "private" is intended to mean. That organization may have chosen to call itself "private" to emphasize that it is not connected with the government, despite having "Supreme Court" in its name. --71.162.249.44 (talk) 13:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or it could mean it's an incorporated entity but not a public company. In other words, you can't buy shares in it; but you can still donate to it. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any such thing as a publicly-held non-profit organization, though? I think 71 is correct, that it means non-government. -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, all non-profits are privately-held, especially if they are member organizations. There are non-profits that are owned by publicly-owned companies (like the private ABS-CBN Foundation being owned by the public ABS-CBN Broadcasting Corporation in the Philippines), but never publicly-owned non-profits, especially because non-profits cannot financially benefit anyone (and in a public or stock corporation, this is done by means of corporate dividends, which are required to be disbursed by law). --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 13:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilia#Cilium-related_disease

What does "heterotaxic" mean?68.148.164.166 (talk) 09:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From the OED: 'heterotaxy: Aberrant or abnormal disposition of organs or parts.' Algebraist 09:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lace-making

Does it have a figurative meaning -- other than making laces actually? In an article about Samuel Beckett, I read that "he lived a bohemian life, [but] she [who is a pianist] preferred lace-making." --Omidinist (talk) 15:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it refers to making lace rather than shoelaces if that helps. I guess there's a bit of an upper-class air to it. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 15:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I interpret it as "she preferred living the quiet life at home" (doing some good old homeworking activity such as lace-making, crocheting, or knitting). I couldn't find a specific reference for "lacemaking" meaning this, but I think it represents a domestic lifestyle. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I guess this is a reference to Suzanne Dechevaux-Dumesnil? To my ear, lace-making doesn't have an 'upper-class' air about it. On the whole, those who made lace - a repetitive and painstaking activity - were the women of the respectable working class. Ladies were more likely to read books, draw watercolours, play musical instruments, sing, ride, take lovers - the kinds of things Bohemians did. Xn4 19:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

anatomies VS anatomy

Is anatomies a proper term to use at any time when you're talking about more than one anatomy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.237.153 (talk) 23:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No-one vs. no one

Why do the British, judging from the BBC, hyphenate "no-one" when they seem to shy away from hyphens in general? Why do Americans not hyphenate the word when they do it with everything else? Thanks. Imagine Reason (talk) 23:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Celtic language pronunciation

I would like to know how to pronounce heneiniau which is Celtic for great grandmother.