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May 22

Hand

What does hand mean in [1]?174.3.123.220 (talk) 05:21, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

If you're referring to "old hands", that's a colloquial way of saying "old characters" in this context. rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:49, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree, exactly correct answer. 86.4.186.107 (talk) 06:50, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)A "hand" is a person, or in this context a character as has been explained. Sometimes in talking about ranching (cattle ranches, etc) people will talk about "ranch hands" which are basically laborers. See definition number seven here. Dismas|^(talk) 06:54, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

"Hired hands" is another, more generic usage along those same lines. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:29, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

"Old hands" in general means people who are well-experienced at the job they do. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

What baffles me on that page is what "supplexing" means. +Angr 09:35, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

It appears to be a coined word, maybe a portmanteau of some kind, a wrestling move involving flipping your opponent over. I googled "supplexing" and one of the first items was this:[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:55, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The usual spelling is suplex, with one p. Deor (talk) 13:09, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

born, a grammatical question

The candidates must be born between 1975 and 1980. It is not a guess, it is a necessity. Is the above sentence correct/acceptable? The question is not about must but about the use of born with any modal auxiliary (or with has/have to) in this way. --117.204.84.237 (talk) 06:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Not answering the question, but pointing out that "between 1975 and 1980" is ambiguous. Do you mean between 1 January 1975 and 31 December 1980 inclusive, or between 1 January 1976 and 31 December 1979 inclusive? Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:38, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I would say "must have been born" unless the sentence was written during the 1970s and the candidates are babies/toddlers. +Angr 07:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

What is meant here is the sense in which "must be born" occurs several times in the eligibility column on this page. Angr, how can must have been born be better than must be born? Assumption rather than necessity (if we look for the mood/mode)?--117.204.84.237 (talk) 08:00, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

"Must be born" sounds like it is a future condition. I.e., the candidate has not been born yet. "Must have been born" is a past condition. I.e., the candidate has been born, and must have been born during the time period specified. Paul Davidson (talk) 08:22, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Paul's analysis of it. But perhaps there's a dialect difference: the London Youth Games page linked to is presumably written in British English, and I'm American, so maybe "must be born" with reference to people currently in their teens is OK in British English but sounds odd (but no more than odd, certainly not ungrammatical) in American English. +Angr 08:35, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The sense of it is "Eligibility is open only to people who were born between 1975 and 1980". Since the text is headed "Eligibility", all it needed to say is "Open only to people who were born between 1975 and 1980". If you did not happen to have been born in that period, there's precious little you can do about it now. It's a little different with "Rowers must be in school years 7 to 12 and live or go to school in the borough", because it's possible to change schools in order to meet the requirement. But even there, it's not as if anyone is compelled to do anything; it's just that if they want to be eligible for this event, and if they don't currently meet the criterion, and if it's within their power to arrange their lives to meet it, then they must do so. Which is a longwinded way of saying that, while it may fail pedants' rules, it's comprehensible to everybody and nobody will take it literally and arrange to be reborn at the right time in history, so in that sense, yes, it's acceptable. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 08:37, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's pedantic to say it simply sounds odd, at least in my dialect, though of course the meaning is perfectly clear. And no, nobody will believe that they can become eligible by being reborn or born again at a later date. +Angr 09:02, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

It's slightly quirky usage, but it's clear that they mean to say "must have been born". The real problem, as noted earlier, is the vagueness of "between". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:27, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

"Must be born" need not necessarily mean past. When we say "He must be here", we are not meaning a future time, are we? Of course, must have been gives the perfect aspect, that something is already done/over. Suppose you are laying down certain rules of selection/admission to some course/programme. You want to say that only those candidates who were born during a certain period (say between 1975 and 1980) are eligible to apply. Can it be worded in a more easily comprehensible way? --117.204.83.139 (talk) 09:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

To remove all ambiguity, it should be worded something like "must have been born between January 1, 1975, and December 31, 1980, inclusive." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Or, as I alluded to above, "Eligibility is open only to people born between January 1, 1975, and December 31, 1980, inclusive". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:29, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The expression seems perfectly clear to me. In British English, when we say "between 1975 and 1980" it is naturally inclusive of the whole of the years mentioned. As for "must be born", this is fairly common usage in age-related eligibility criteria. DuncanHill (talk) 10:42, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I would infer from the way it's written that it's a short way of saying what Jack says just above. The OP asks if it's "correct/acceptable". And I say that it's not strictly "correct", but it's probably "acceptable" because most readers would make the intended inference. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

No, "between 1975 and 1980" means "between midnight in the morning of 1st January 1975 and midnight in the night of 31st December 1980" - there is absolutely no need whatsoever in British English to expand the phrase. DuncanHill (talk) 10:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily. It is often used that way, but it's not unambiguous. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:00, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

It is unambiguous. Maybe not to an American, but to British ears it is. DuncanHill (talk) 11:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Not so, in my view - to my British ears, it is ambiguous. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:46, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

So what other meaning is suggested to you by "from 1975 to 1980"? DuncanHill (talk) 12:56, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The question said "between..." not "from..." See my response to the original question. This is not a big deal, but if the questioner is, for instance, drafting a form for completion by others, it would be best expressed in less ambiguous terms. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Colloquially, "between" and "from/to" are often used in the way Duncan says. But if the OP is wanting to be very exacting and unambiguous, he needs to pose the statement the way Jack said; that way there is no possibility of ambiguity. To my mind, "between" means somewhere in between but not necessarily standing on either endpoint. For example, "between a rock and hard place" implies you're not standing either one, but are somewhere in between. In general, to me "between A and B" with no qualifiers sounds like "neither A or B, but some point in between." In the given example, "between 1975 and 1980" could mean "1-1-75 through (not to) 12-31-80", or it could mean "1-1-76 through 12-31-79". This is something that irks me about hitting streaks, for one. The first game of Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak was on May 15, 1941, and the 56th game was on July 16th. He was held hitless on July 17th. So the streak ran "through" July 16, but "to" July 17, to look at it one way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:40, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

In British English, we don't use "through" in the way that Americans do; "1975 through 1980" would just sound wrong - or at least American. I agree with Duncanhill and others that this usage means "both dates inclusive" as they say in some legal documents. Alansplodge (talk) 16:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Seems like the OP is asking how to make it as clear and unambiguous as possible, in which case nothing should be assumed, and Jack's way to say it should cover it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Daniel F. Galouye – Pronunciation of Surname

Daniel F. Galouye is one of my favorite authors of Science fiction. So I’d like to know the correct pronunciation of his surname. The article Daniel F. Galouye says: “(pronounced Gah-lou-ey)“, but I am not sure what that means. Should the “a” in “Galouye” be pronounced like the vowel in the word “far”, or like the vowel in the word “but”? Should the “ou” be pronounced like the “ou” in the word “loud”? And should the “ye” at the end of “Galouye” be pronounced like the “ey” in the word “turkey”? -- Irene1949 (talk) 20:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, and unfortunately Galouye isn't famous enough to be listed in the Merriam-Webster Biographical Dictionary or for his surname to be listed in any of my pronunciation dictionaries. This page gives "GahLOOEE" and "Gah-LOUIE"; in the first example it's said that "ah" stands for the vowel of "car", but I think a schwa is more likely given the position in the word. So my guess is that the first syllable is the same as the first syllable of gesundheit or gajillion, while the rest is just like Louie (rhyming with "gooey"). I think this is supported by his pseudonym "Louis G. Daniels", which seems to be taking the parts of his real name and reversing them: Louis (often pronounced Louie) for the -louye, G. for the Ga-, and Daniels from his first name (with an -s tacked on to make it sound like a last name). I'd also like to bring this example to the attention of the people who complain about the use of the IPA at Wikipedia and want us to use pronunciation respellings instead: this is a perfect example of a pronunciation respelling being ambiguous and unhelpful to readers, while the IPA (/ɡəˈluːiː/ if my guess above is correct) would be unambiguous and clear. +Angr 15:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Angr, thank you for your answer. -- Irene1949 (talk) 16:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Modern (American?) pronunciation of "finale"

American TV series frequently advertise their season "finale," three syllables with "ale" pronounced "ALlee." Has this always been an acceptable pronunciation of this word? Or was it once considered incorrect, and the word pronounced "fihNAL" (rhymes with "canal")? 63.17.49.5 (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

"fin-AAL-EE" is the only pronunciation of "finale" that I know of. "FII-NAL" is the pronunciation of "final", a different word. --Tango (talk) 23:52, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

"Finale" rhymes with "Win Ollie". "Final" rhymes with "Spinal". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:09, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Win Ollie? Finn-AH-LAY! DuncanHill (talk) 02:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, if you're pronouncing it very carefully and exactly, Duncan. But usually it comes out rhyming (non-rhotically) with barley, Carly, gnarly, Harley, Marley, and parley. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 02:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Explaining how words are pronounced by using other words is like explaining colours to a blind man. Of course "Ollie" is going to rhyme with "finale" in Texas. Where is the IPA when you need it. Richard Avery (talk) 14:33, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Not being particularly careful or exact, just saying it as I've heard it said many times. DuncanHill (talk) 12:00, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I've never actually heard anyone say it "finn-AH-LAY". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Try Radio 3. DuncanHill (talk) 12:00, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

If you're talking BBC, that's a little out of my range. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:50, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

If you invested in one of these new-fangled "internet computer devices" you could listen to it on that, or so I am told by people who have such technical implements in their homes. DuncanHill (talk) 19:53, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if I could pick it up on my TRS-80? Also, my modem is so slow it has a crank on it. But back to my question: Is that "Radio 3" British? American? Something else? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:24, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

It's BBC Radio 3. DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Roger. I would expect very exacting pronunciation from the BBC. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

My name's Duncan, not Roger. DuncanHill (talk) 16:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone say 'Ollie' as 'arley'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:45, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

In New York, "arley" would be "ahley" (non-rhotally, as Jack had said), except "Ollie" would be more like "awlie". Rather than posting words with R's in them and advising saying them non-rhotally, the more direct way (in American MIDWESTERN English, not "Texas" English) would be to say that "finale" rhymes with collie, dolly, folly, good golly, Miss Molly, Polly, holly, jolly, volley, and pro'lly others I can't think of just now. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:45, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Purely speculative, but it may be that confusion over the pronunciation may arise from the mistaken assumption that "finale" is derived from French, and thus the original pronunciation must have been "French-like". Actually, as Wiktionary points out [3], the English word "finale" is derived from Italian (probably coming via opera), where it has basically the same pronunciation as in modern English. -- 174.24.200.38 (talk) 00:25, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Which pronounciation is under discussion. I am with Jack, again. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:16, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I was confused by bolley, Colly, gnolly, Holley, Molley, and polley, but then I realised that Ollie in American is very different from the British pronunciation of the name. We do pronounce finale in a very similar way though. Dbfirs 11:49, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

As with Wiktionary, I have only ever used and heard /fɪnɑːli/. However, I just looked it up on the OED and it gives /fɪnale, fɪnɑːleɪ/. The final /e, eɪ/ do not sound normal to me as a speaker of American English. 124.214.131.55 (talk) 12:26, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Ditto, here. Where I live, there's a chain of dessert restaurants called "Finale", and the four GAm speakers I just IMed call it either /fɪnɑli/ or /fɪnæli/. Maybe a fronter a than the a of father, but the last vowel is uniformly /i/ rather than /eɪ/.--Atemperman (talk) 17:26, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

With regard to it being Italian rather than French: an opposite case is "forte" (noun, as in "my forte is languages"), which (according to the OED) was borrowed from French and originally pronounced monosyllabically, but has subsequently come to be pronounced as two syllables. The OED doesn't say so, but I assume this is under the influence of the adjective "forte", which is from Italian and bisyllabic. --ColinFine (talk) 18:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I've heard people pronounced "forte" like "fort" (probably the ones who pronounced "filet" as "fill-it") but normally it sounds like "for-tay", i.e. rhymes with "fore-play". I have to use rhymes, because the IPA stuff not only is gibberish in general, but on my PC it often looks like little boxes, which I really don't know how to pronounce. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:49, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Bugs with regards to "fil[l]et", the whole of the UK, with few exceptions, pronounces it with a hard "t". For-tay prevails by some margin here. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 20:52, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

"Filet" as "fill-AY" and "fillet" as "FILL-it" is the normal U.S. usage, I would say. The McDonald's "Filet o' Fish" sandwich (or just "Filet") is pronounced "fill-AY", although I've also heard it pronounced as a homophone of "filly" or "Philly", i.e. accent on the first syllable. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Just another one of these language oddities, like pronouncing "suite" like "suit" instead of "sweet". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:33, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The name of the fast-food joint called Chick-fil-A pretty well illustrates the U.S. pronunciation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm disappointed to learn 'forte' comes via French rather than Italian. That means that, unless I maintain a pronunciation I now know to be incorrect - horror! - I can no longer claim that the piano is my forte and make it sound witty. What a dreadful dilemma to be in! :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

According to Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, the forte you are good at is from the French, the forte that is loud is from Italian. So if you play the piano loudly you could still get away with it. DuncanHill (talk) 23:44, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, the final syllable (final "e" in this case) is pronounced in French when it is part of a lyric. So, friend Jack, if you were to sing out loudly and off key "My forte is the piano", roughly based on the music for "Glory, glory, hallelujah" you would have enough possible meanings for a whole catalogue of agreements. :-) Bielle (talk) 17:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Sing it softly, and there are more still. Bielle (talk) 20:30, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh yes, that's much more my style, Bielle. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:47, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

May 23

Two words, same meaning, different connotations?

Hey there. I am a third year French student, and I have come upon two words lor(s)que and quand, both of which translate to English when. I was wondering in what situtations (with examples) one would use each. Thanx ~~ ~~ ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.236.200 (talk) 02:19, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

About.com has a good page about this very question. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:15, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Breadalbane, Scotland

I think this is pronounced (Br'd-al-bin). Any comments please? Kittybrewster ☎ 09:11, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

That's what the article says, Kitty. Are you questioning it? If it's any help, there's a Breadalbane in Australia, and it's usually pronounced Brəd-AWL-bən (except by ignoramuses like I was for years, who call it "BRED-əl-bayn"). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:21, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes - I put it there but I don't have a written source - just aural ones. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Webster's New Geographical Dictionary gives \brə-ˈdȯl-bən\ (for the area in Scotland; it's unaware of the Australian one), which is more or less the pronunciation you suggest. I'm going to change it to IPA in the article, though, and move it so that it's clear what we're giving the pronunciation of. Deor (talk) 10:42, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The BBC Pronouncing Dictionary of British Names (2nd ed. 1983) has both /brɪˈdælbɪn/ and /brɪˈdɔlbɪn/ ("the second is appropriate for the Earl of ~"). --Cam (talk) 18:00, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Which means what? Kittybrewster ☎ 13:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Presumably it means that the Earl pronounces his title /brɪˈdɔlbɪn/ but the place itself is pronounced /brɪˈdælbɪn/. See Harewood House for a similar division between the aristocratic title and the local standard pronunciation of the place name. Karenjc 18:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Points and scoring

I was thinking about how points and scoring are treated in various languages.

I believe that the Polish word for score would translate morpheme by morpheme as *pointation. The Japanese word for score would translate as point count or point number. So why in English is it a score? Any other variations?

Yesterday I was talking to a bank employee about how it makes no sense to call an account balance a "balance" as nothing is actually being balanced. I cynically proposed that it be called a "score", that is how in our world we keep score: with money. Are there languages which use the same word for a bank balance as for a game score? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.210.249.186 (talk) 10:49, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The word score comes from an old word for a notch, and hence a tally. Banks used to spend hours after closing-time "balancing", i.e. checking that the difference between cash in and cash out balanced to the exact penny the increase in cash held. Employees were not allowed to leave the building until this had been done to the last penny. I agree that score would be a good word to use. Dbfirs 11:42, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Except that score comes from scoring a stick or rod and that is equally quirky, although it is novel so seems like a good idea. Balance is perfectly logical and understood, as explained by the previous poster. Your account is balanced every moment of time between what is put in and what is taken out, the "scales" may not be "even" but that does not pertain to the argument. Richard Avery (talk) 14:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, yes, the original question. In Spanish they use the term marcar which originally meant to mark or score (as with a knife) or leave a scar. Similar to the English score. In South America it is not uncommon to use anotar(se) as a verb meaning to score which also can translate to English as to note or write down Richard Avery (talk) 14:29, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The mark you get at the end of the year in a class is called "la nota" in (LAm) Spanish, where "marca" means a brand name. Steewi (talk) 02:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

British English

The British call cookies biscuits, so what do they call biscuits? --70.129.186.243 (talk) 22:39, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean by biscuits? DuncanHill (talk) 22:44, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

If you mean these things, we don't call them anything as they don't exist here. DuncanHill (talk) 22:46, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I think the closest thing we have are scones, which are sweet but otherwise very similar, but are usually used for cream teas rather than eaten with gravy. In terms of usage, dumplings are quite similar, I suppose. --Tango (talk) 00:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

You also get savoury scones (e.g. cheese scone), plain scones, etc. but these might be regional. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

By scones, we mean these not these. Apparently, "Round-shaped British scones can resemble North American biscuits in appearance, but scones rely on cold butter for their delicate, flaky texture, while biscuits are more often made with shortening and are crumbly rather than flaky. Also, while scones are served with coffee and tea or as a dessert, biscuits are served more as a side bread often with breakfast." Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, or even as the entire breakfast, especially in the past in impoverished parts of the South. +Angr 16:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Cookies are biscuits with chocolate-chips in them 82.44.55.254 (talk) 23:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Those are specifically Maryland Cookies. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

What? Maryland Cookies are a specific brand of cookies. There are lots of chocolate-chip cookies that aren't sold under the Maryland brand. --Tango (talk) 16:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

There are non-chocolate-chip cookies. A cookie is more rustic looking than a biscuit, but it doesn't necessarily have anything added to it. --Tango (talk) 00:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Most things called cookies in the UK are large and fairy soft/moist -- Q Chris (talk) 07:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Care to clarify? I've known some pretty tough fairies! Dismas|^(talk) 08:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Here's another one: the English call private schools "public schools", so what do they call public schools? +Angr 07:34, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Really? Wow, that's strange... "state schools", perhaps? {{Sonia|talk|simple}} 07:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Not all "private schools" in the UK are called (or call themselves) Public Schools: an alternative name is Independent school. "State school" is the normal term for non-private schools; an older term was Council school. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

And these include church schools, which are mainly funded by councils (that is, by taxpayers), but outside council control and free to discriminate against children whose parents aren't of a religion acceptable to the school. DuncanHill (talk) 09:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Public School (UK): "The term 'public' was adopted from the Public Schools Act 1868 and refers to the fact that the school is open to the paying public, as opposed to, for example, a religious school open only to those part of a certain church, or private education at home." Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:47, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

And if you want to be more technical, most state schools in the UK are known as maintained schools, meaning they are maintained by funding from the council. 86.178.73.218 (talk) 16:34, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The Americans call a 'tap' a 'fawcett', but anything that comes out of it is still called 'tap water', not 'fawcett water' (might have the spelling wrong and confusing it with the actress (Farrah Tapp(?))). --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

It's faucet, and we use it in addition to, not to the exclusion of, tap. +Angr 09:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

However, there was a joke circulating in the mid-70s about a running water tap at the Egyptian pyramids, referred to as a "Pharoah Faucet". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

And there was the guy who studied that pharonic device to the highest level at uni, he got a Pharoah Faucet Major. _{Boom Boom} Richard Avery (talk) 09:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Oho - keep them flowing :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:16, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

May 24

lap for laptop

Can somebody tell me about the use of the word lap to mean a laptop computer? I see that this expression is widespread among certain sections in my place. However, I don't see this mentioned in Wiktionary. --117.204.80.219 (talk) 00:07, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=laptop

Lap : current meaning "upper legs of seated person" http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=lap

Usage "I was sitting down drinking coffee, but I nodded off, spilling hot coffee on my lap, waking me up" 87.102.18.191 (talk) 00:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Desktop computer - goes on a desk

Laptop computer - goes on your lap.87.102.18.191 (talk) 00:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

It can go on your lap, e.g. at an airport or in a vehicle. But typically it's set upon a tabletop or desktop if one is available, as they are a little awkward and can get fairly warm. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The term "notebook", as in electronic notebook, is also used - more of a sales hype term than anything. "Laptop" is descriptive. "Lap" has an interesting origin and diverse evolution.[4] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not really hype: as I understand it, they changed the name to "notebook" to avoid being sued when someone put their laptop on their lap and got burnt. If they are marketing them as laptops, they can hardly say people were misusing it by putting it on their lap, so they had the change the name. --Tango (talk) 00:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Easier to change the term than to fix the problem, eh? American ingenuity! But everyone I know calls it a "laptop". Old habits (and laps) die hard. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

A big honkin' mainframe could maybe be called a "floortop". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, they would claim they were trying to fix the problem by changing the behaviour of users, which probably is the best solution. Lots of work has been done to reduce the heat produced by laptops (although mostly because it is extremely strongly correlated with the power used and therefore the battery life), but there is a limit to how good they can get. --Tango (talk) 01:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I think what the OP was asking was about using "lap" to refer to one's computer, as in "my lap got a virus". Personally, I have never heard that. rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

After re-reading, I think you are right. That is apparently what the OP means. I also haven't come across that particular abbreviation. The use of unusual abbreviations within a small group of people is very common, though. --Tango (talk) 01:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, duh, you're right. He obviously knows what a laptop is and what a lap is. This tendency to shorten things is a normal thing in English. We refer to a telephone as a "phone", even though "phone" by itself is technically an ambiguous usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I am the OP and and I am surprised that my meaning was lost on all these posters who got carried away by etymological and other innuendos of lap :-)). So, nobody here has encountered this particular usage in their languages?--117.204.80.219 (talk) 01:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't think an English speaker would ever call a computer a "lap". Paul Davidson (talk) 02:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I have full sympathy with you, OP. It would have been very hard to misinterpret your very clear question "Can somebody tell me about the use of the word lap to mean a laptop computer?", yet if you needed any proof that we here at WP often do the impossible, here it is.  :) -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 03:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not able to find anything on Google, but I did find this one item[5] that reminds us that the early term for a PC was a "microcomputer". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it's just a continuation of the laptop -> lappy shortening? Nanonic (talk) 07:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I thought my wife was the only one that called them "lappys"! Dismas|^(talk) 08:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. Amazing you hold down a job, yet need to contact strangers on the internet to have a simple colloquial abbreviation explained to you :) 87.102.85.123 (talk) 11:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

That was really unnecessary, Friend 87, smiley or no. The OP is very aware that "lap" is sometimes used as an abbreviation for "laptop". That's not the issue. What he/she wants is more information about this abbreviation, since it hasn't yet made it into the hallowed halls of Wiktionary. It's obvious from the responses so far that very few others have come across it either, so it's not exactly widespread. The OP wants to know how long it's been around, what pockets of the linguosphere it's used in, and similar questions. They want some references, not just guesses. Why is this so hard to understand? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

According to the Geolocate, he's in India, so it could be an "Indian English" thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Yet again I've insulted someone Indian due to differences in language (I hate the internet). Sorry. It's just an abbreviation though - I can't imagine there being a lot more to be said.87.102.85.123 (talk) 13:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, imagine again. They have to start somewhere. Someone had to be the first to use them. They're appropriate in some contexts but not others, and this differs from case to case. They're used in some countries but not others, or some parts of a country but not others, and so on. There's lots of information that can be recorded about any particular abbreviation. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:05, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Finns use "läppäri" as a shorthand term for "laptop". This comes directly from the English word "laptop", without any translation. Finnish for "lap" is "syli". I don't think most Finns who use the term "läppäri" are even aware that the word "lap" means your lap, they're using the English word as an opaque identifier to distinguish laptops from desktops. JIP | Talk 19:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that lap for laptop is an abbreviation; what 117.204.80.219 seems to be describing is a clipped form. Deor (talk) 22:34, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The OP again. As Baseball_Bugs guesses I am from India. I have heard this expression from a couple of people (a few using it as if to convey that he/she is an "insider") and found it used in a popular novel written in an Indian local language. Somehow, I found this truncated form a bit poor in taste (I don't know why) and wanted to confirm it is part of some slang. I have yet to confirm if the IT people in my part of the world use this expression. It could be a probable and influential source but I doubt if it is. --117.204.85.48 (talk) 07:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Evocation v. Provocation

What is the difference between evocation and provocation? Kayau Voting IS evil 14:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The two have very different definitions: evocation and provocation. Marco polo (talk) 15:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The distinction between evocation and invocation is more problematic in some contexts. Although the linked definitions do not make this clear, evoking something may imply "calling it up" externally to oneself, while invoking it may imply "calling it up" within oneself.87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, the definitions are pretty similar in my dictionary. (Well, that's what wmf is for.) Also, I'm just curious, but why were you using an external link to link to Wiktionary? I mean, why didn't you link to wiktionary:evocation instead? Is there a purpose for linking like that? Thanks again, Kayau Voting IS evil 13:53, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Polyglot toponyms

I was fascinated by articles about localities with names in different languages. Some of them have a lot of official-local names, for example:
German: Zürich, French: Zurich, Italian: Zurigo, Romansh: Turitg;
French: Fauvillers, German: Feitweiler, Luxembourgish: Fäteler, Walloon: Faiviè;
French: Messancy, German: Metzig, Luxembourgish: Miezeg, Walloon: Messanceye;
French: Martelange, German: Martelingen, Luxembourgish: Maartel, Walloon: Måtlindje;
Italian: Macugnaga, Walser German: Z'Makana, Piedmontese: Macugnaga, Occitan: Mazzuccagna;
Italian: Malborghetto Valbruna, Friulian: Malborghet-Valbrune, Slovene: Naborjet-Ovčja, German: Malborgeth-Wolfsbach.
I was wondering, do you know any example of other localities with even more local names? By local names I mean I would prefer names in languages actually spoken by autochthonous people (I know that Zurich is not a very good example because its localized names exist only because of its importance, being it almost totally German-speaking). Oh, I have seen Names of European cities in different languages, but as you have probably understood, I'm not searching for exonims. --151.51.2.134 (talk) 17:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how many of these names are used now, but see the opening sentence of "Bratislava", and its section "Names".—msh210℠ 17:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

To this day, the village of Bivio is trilingual. It is called Bivio in Italian, Beiva in Rumantsch (close to Surmiran, but Bivio has its own distinct dialect), and formerly Stalla or, apparently, even "Stallen" in German (I don't know anyone who calls it Stalla or Stallen these days, but I don't live there or near there either). I think our article might have it wrong, but I will need to check for references some other time. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Most of the autonomous regions/counties of China have cities with names in both Mandarin and the local language. For example, in Xinjiang many cities have names in both Mandarin and Uyghur (for instance, Qumul/Hami; Ghulja/Yining). The same goes for places like Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Guangxi, etc. rʨanaɢ (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

For bilingual examples, there are of course plenty in Switzerland as well. Ilanz/Glion for a Rumantsch/German example. Bosco Gurin/Guryn for an Italian/Walserdeutsch example (in Ticinese-Lombard it would even be Bosch Gürin, so I guess it could be considered trilingual). The largest Swiss examples are probably Franco-German: Fribourg/Freiburg or Biel/Bienne (not to be confused with Bielle :). ---Sluzzelin talk 20:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

It just occurred to me, that both Biel and Fribourg could be considered trilingual, due to the annoying diglossia in German-speaking Switzerland (annoying to non-native speaking immigrants, anyway). So we now have Fribourg/Freiburg/Fryburg and Biel/Bienne/Biu. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Vienna used to be the capital of a multilingual empire, and it once had a multilingual population. The city is now overwhelmingly German-speaking, but there are remnants of communities from other parts of Austria-Hungary, alongside more recent immigrants from Turkey, Bosnia, and elsewhere. Vienna's names in the many languages of its former empire include Wien, Videň, Viedeň, Wiedeń, Відень, Viena, Beč, Беч, Bécs, Dunaj, and Vienna. Marco polo (talk) 20:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Dunaj is the Czech, Slovak and Polish name of the Danube River, not the name of the city of Vienna. --Магьосник (talk) 11:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Finland has Finnish and Swedish names for some (perhaps many) places: Helsinki/Helsingfors; Turku/Åbo; Tampere/Tammerfors. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 21:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Most places in Wales have English and Welsh names (or just a Welsh name, or occasionally just an English name) e.g. Cardiff/Caerdydd, Swansea/Abertawe, Newport/Casnewydd, Holyhead/Caergybi, Haverfordwest/Hwlffordd, Llandovery/Llanymddyfri, Wrexham/Wrecsam (though that's just spelling an English name using Welsh orthography). -- Arwel Parry (talk) 21:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

See Welsh placenames for more detail. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much all place names in Ireland exist in both Irish and English forms, although the English form is usually just an anglicized spelling of the Irish name. Some examples where the names are really different are Dublin (Baile Átha Cliath), Wicklow (Cill Mhantáin), Wexford (Loch Garman), and Waterford (Port Láirge). However, these might not qualify as truly bilingual places, since they're all overwhelmingly English-speaking by now. +Angr 21:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Many notable places in the Balkans are known with different names, sometimes with different etymologies, in the languages of the various peoples that have dealt with them historically.

• Istanbul: Turkish: İstanbul (note the dotted capital İ); Greek: Κωνσταντινούπολη, Kōnstantinoúpolē.
• Alexandroupoli: Greek: Αλεξανδρούπολη, Alexandroúpolē; Turkish: Dedeağaç.
• Thessaloniki: Greek: Θεσσαλονίκη, Thessaloníkē; Bulgarian: Солун, Solun; Turkish: Selanik.
• Edirne: Turkish: Edirne; Greek: Αδριανούπολη, Adrianoúpolē, Bulgarian: Одрин, Odrin.
• Durrës: Albanian: Durrës; Greek: Δυρράχιο, Dyrráchio; Italian: Durazzo; Turkish: Dıraç; Serbian: Драч, Drač, Bulgarian: usually Дуръс, Durăs, but occasionally Драч, Drach.
• Skopje: Macedonian: Скопје, Skopje; Albanian: Shkupi; Serbian: Скопље, Skoplje, Turkish: Üsküp.
• Constanţa: Romanian: Constanţa; Bulgarian: usually Констанца, Konstantsa, but occasionally Кюстенджа, Kyustendzha; Turkish: Köstence.
• Giurgiu: Romanian: Giurgiu; Bulgarian: Гюргево, Gyurgevo; Turkish: Yergöğü.

--Магьосник (talk) 01:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

New South Wales, Australia has made indigenous place names official dual names alongside the modern English names of areas. Steewi (talk) 02:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Many places in Schleswig have names in all five local languages German, Danish, North Frisian, Low Saxon, and South Jutlandic. But I cannot provide any example with names in all five different languages cause Low Saxon, North Frisian and Southern Jutish are no standard languages and no official listings of the place names exist. --::Slomox:: >< 20:54, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Arts and letters

Regarding the phrase "arts and letters" ... what exactly does this mean (both literally and figuratively)? Also, what is its etymology? Thank you! (64.252.65.146 (talk) 21:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC))

It means just what the page you linked says: "the fine arts, performing arts, and literary arts". 'Letters' refers to literature, 'arts' refers to performance and art art (painting, sculpture, etc.). rʨanaɢ (talk) 21:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The usual name for "art art" is visual art. +Angr 21:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, that's the word I was grasping for! rʨanaɢ (talk) 21:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of what the link says, as I included the link in my question. So, let me be more direct. Why is the broad concept of literature referred to as "letters"? Does this refer to letters as in: (a) the 26 letters of the alphabet; or (b) the type of letters that you would write to a friend and send via mail? (Neither seems particularly applicable.) I was asking: where did the phrase originate? And what do letters have to do with anything? Thanks. (64.252.65.146 (talk) 00:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC))

"Letters" is a form of synechdoche for referring to writing. There is more information on etymology, when it was first attested, etc., in the second entry here. rʨanaɢ (talk) 00:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Basically, the concept is referred to as "letters" because in Latin litterae (plural of littera, "letter [of the alphabet]") was used to denote the concept. Why doesn't it seem particulary applicable? It's no more odd than the synonymous literature, which derives from the same root. Deor (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. It seemed odd or inapplicable because each individual letter of the alphabet seems, in perspective, rather benign and trivial when referring to the concept of literary works (e.g., great works of literature) as a whole. Somewhat akin to, say, referring to a great masterpiece of art (e.g., the Mona Lisa) as "some brush strokes" or "a collection of paint chips". The small component units seem rather trivial, whereas the aggregate cumulative effect (of them) is what makes the works stand out. Thanks. (64.252.65.146 (talk) 01:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC))

Yes, that's why it's synecdoche. rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed! (64.252.65.146 (talk) 01:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC))

Thanks to all. Much appreciated! (64.252.65.146 (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2010 (UTC))

Icelandic relative clauses

A friend of mine showed me the following Icelandic sentences, with some simple interlinear glosses:

1)	Fólkið	sem	ég	var	í	boltaleik	með
	the.people	which	I	was	in	played.ball	with
	"the people who I played ball with"

2)	Ég	sá	eiginmann	þessarar	konu
	I	saw	husband	this	woman
	"the woman whose husband I saw"

I noticed that the first has a head-initial relative clause (the RC follows the noun it's describing, and the complementizer is at the beginning, like English), and the second has a head-final one (like Japanese, Turkish, Chinese...). Can anyone tell why this is? I have heard Icelandic word order is relatively flexible, so is there some kind of focus difference or something behind this difference? And is it possible to flip either of these examples around? rʨanaɢ (talk) 22:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure the second one is a relative clause? It looks like a sentence to me. --ColinFine (talk) 23:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I dunno, I don't know anything about Icelandic. I asked for a relative clause ("the woman whose husband I saw"), but who knows what I actually got ;) rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that it would depend on what case konu is in. It is apparently feminine indefinite genitive, dative or accusative. I should like to see this relative clause as part of a whole sentence before I can really tell anything about it. My Icelandic syntax is very small. Steewi (talk) 02:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Google translates the sentence "I saw this woman's husband". Although my knowledge of Icelandic is rudimentary, this is the translation I expected, because þessarar and konu are both in the genitive case. According to Google, "the woman whose husband I saw" would be "konan sem maðurinn sá ég". Marco polo (talk) 18:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

chinese translation

which is a better if at all translation

兒子不純的 战士上帝 or 儿子的污辱 战士的神? I am trying to translate my name Troy McCormick, troy means soldier of god, mccormick means son of defilement, so i know in chinese it should be son of defilement, soldier of god anyways, is either correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hemanetwork (talk • contribs) 23:03, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Chinese names for foreigners aren't made with literal translation like that, they're usually phonetic transliterations (for instance, Barack Obama is 巴拉克·欧巴马: balake oubama), so yours might be something like, I dunno, 土若·马克尔马克 (turuo make'ermake). For a more Chinese-like name, like what students in introductory Chinese classes get, you would most likely get a surname that shares a sound with your surname (probably 马, ma) and then a one- or two-character given name that either sounds like your real given name, or uses some characters that are just common for names.

(Just think of it this way: your English name doesn't really mean "soldier of god, son of defilement" either. Maybe etymologically that's what those words originally meant, but it's not how you introduce yourself to people. If you were in a French class and getting a French name, your name wouldn't be Fils de Dieu or something like that, it would be something name-y.)

And, for what it's worth, your literal translations are backwards (they look like they're from Google Translate). The first says "the son is impure; soldier god", and the second says "defilement of the son, god of the soldier". rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I find it odd that your first translation is in Traditional Chinese whereas your second is in Simplified Chinese. I'm assuming you don't speak (much) Chinese seeing as you have your words the wrong way round the "的" (the thing being described generally comes after the 的). I agree with Rjanag above that foreign names are transliterated phonetically, however I probably would not transliterate Troy to "土若", as 土 means "dirt" (in the earthy sense); probably something like 特罗(吚). Intelligentsium 23:39, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Intelligentsium, 特罗 sounds better. Although, for what it's worth, if you're looking for a Chinese name you're probably better off using the second kind I described, rather than a full phonetic transliteration...that longer kind of name is more often used for famous people (like Barack Obama and actors). rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Troy means soldier, is there a name that is similar in meaning? McCormick means son of cormac, cormac means defilement or impure or raven, is there a name similar to that? and nevertheless how would i say it if i wanted to, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hemanetwork (talk • contribs) 00:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC) If you wanted a Chinese-like first name that means something like 'soldier' a name like 英军 Ying1jun1 might be appropriate. Both are relatively common characters used in boys' names. Ying 英 means 'hero' (and phonetically, English), jun 军 means 'army' or 'soldier'. Combined with a phonetic surname like 马, you would get 马英军 Ma Yingjun. There isn't really a surname that has a meaning like defilement or raven. Have a look at List of Chinese surnames for some other possibilities. You should also check with a native speaker to make sure that your chosen name doesn't have any strange homophones. Yingjun sounds like 英俊 ying1jun4, which means 'handsome' (they differ only in tone), so that's not really a bad name. Steewi (talk) 02:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

First, it's not true that Troy means soldier of God, nor that McCormick means son of defilement. Those etymologies are incorrect, except that Mac/Mc does mean "son of" in Gaelic. Most of name-book authors, and most name sources on the internet, just copy lists out of previous sources, with all the same errors. If you are actually interested in the original meaning of your name, consult an academic, researched name book.

Anyway, to most of us, the modern connotation of a name is more important than its original etymology. The names Gertrude and Bertha have wonderful meanings, but no one names a child that these days. Most of us don't need to worry about the meaning of a name (and most people have theirs wrong from some baby-name book that usually says it means some variant of "glorious warrior" or "precious jewel").

The normal way a Western name is turned into a Chinese name is for either a Chinese person (preferably well-educated) or the Western individual to choose a Chinese name that sounds like the Western name, and also has a favorable meaning. There are standard translations of a lot of Western names-- for example, John is often translated as Yue-han and David as Da-wei. But in China every person's name is individual, so you are free to choose any characters you wish.

Therefore to translate your surname, McCormick, into a Chinese surname, you would normally choose a Chinese surname that starts with M, like Ma, Mao, Mei, Meng. (In China, there are few surnames-- so few that the Han Chinese population was nicknamed "Old Hundred Names" because almost everyone has one of those hundred names. Including thousands of rare ones, there are still only a few thousand surnames in total among the billion-plus Han Chinese.) Or you could choose a surname that began with the K sound of Cormick. Alternatively, you could choose to transliterate your name and have a multisyllable name that won't sound Chinese, but will be written in Chinese characters. This is what Chinese newspapers do with the names of famous Westerners, few of whom have a "Chinese" name. For example, George W. Bush is transliterated as "乔治·沃克·布什," pronounced Qiao-zhi Wo-ke Bu-shi (乔治/Qiao-zhi is a standard version of "George") on Chinese Wikipedia.

Probably the most common M surname is 馬 Ma, which means "horse"; it is often found in the Muslim population of Northwest China. The surname Mai 麥 (traditional)/麦 (simplified), meaning "grain," is pronounced Mok in Cantonese, so you could choose it for that reason.

To translate your name Troy, you are completely free to choose any one- or two-characters from a Chinese dictionary. It's normal to choose one or two characters with favorable meanings. There are lots of resources on the internet about how to choose your Chinese name. Here's one decent one, for example: http://www.mandarintools.com/chinesename.html Before you definitively make up your mind, be sure to ask an opinion from a native speaker. Even a name with a good meaning could sound too much like another expression. If your Chinese speaker bursts out laughing, you need a different name. Evangeline (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

The common translation of "Troy" is "特洛伊". And "McCormick" might be translated into "麥科米克". Chinese people are actually not so care of the meaning of a single character, they just mind the whole meaning of the name and avoid the bad euphonies. luuva (talk) 11:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

May 25

Sophocracy in Chinese, Pali and Sanskrit

I need the translation of the word 'sophocracy' into Chinese, Pali and Sanskrit, but I cannot find one. Can anyone help me here?

Thank you in advance, Tomispev (talk) 07:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I imagine the reason you can't find it is because it's a very uncommon word even in English (it doesn't appear to exist in most dictionaries other than Wiktionary). As for Chinese, I would guess you could translate it as 哲学政治 (哲学 is philosophy, 政治 means government but is also the "-ocracy" in words like "theocracy"). rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I think sophocracy means more "rule of the wise" rather than "rule of philosophers". Perhaps the Confucian concept of the "君子", or superior individual, would apply. Paul Davidson (talk) 05:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Well sophocracy derives from sophos+cracy, sophos meaning sage, not philosopher. I just don't know if to use the word 聖 or 哲 + 政治. Tomispev (talk) 07:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

"智才治國"? See [6] and [7]. Translation are [8] and [9]. Or 賢者政治 or 賢者政体? Oda Mari (talk) 08:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

How about 聖哲统治? Tomispev (talk) 09:07, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

First priority

The Queen spoke about this in her speech today. It sounds tautological to me. And what comes after a priority? Kittybrewster ☎ 12:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I used to have a boss who, if she wanted me to do something before and to the exclusion of everything else, would tell me "prioritise this...". However, my understanding of the verb "to prioritise" was "to put things in order of importance". If I'd have done what I understood her instructions to mean, I would have ranked it along with my other tasks in order of importance. Obviously I had to act according to what she meant, not what I thought she said. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:31, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any tautology here. One can have a first priority and then a second priority and so on.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

If it is second, it doesn't sound like a priority. Kittybrewster ☎ 12:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

If you have several things to do, you do them in order of their priority. The most important thing is the first priority or top priority. Next is the second priority, next is the third priority, and so on. I don't think a priority is a thing one can have only one of at a time. +Angr 13:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

If you have a list of 50 things you need to do, and put them in order of priority, all of them except the last will be priorities, because all of them except the last come before at least 1 other thing. But the last one, the 50th, that's no kind of priority at all. Therefore it doesn't belong on the list. So take it off. Now the 49th thing is the last thing on the list, and it, by the same reasoning, is no kind of priority, so take it off. Continue doing this till only the first thing is left. Does this mean that there was only ever one priority, as Kitty seems to be implying? Maybe. But having a list of things in the order of importance one assigns to them is still a very useful and rational tool. Does it really matter what we call this order, as long as it's generally comprehensible, which "priority" is? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 13:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Hehe. Inductive reasoning is valid only if the premises are true, although I suppose this gem of logic was tongue-in-cheek. "Last priority" is a term that is frequently used (gets a lot of ghits, random example [10]) --NorwegianBlue ^talk 22:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm with Shantavira and Angr here. While I personally have never said or heard "first priority", I have heard "top priority" a lot, and it sounds perfectly fine to say "X should be your top priority; Y is the next priority" or something like that. As for your hypothetical situation about 50 things...well, I think you can only really label a few things as priorities (unless you're being witty). It's a bit fuzzy, but language doesn't always work logically anyway. rʨanaɢ (talk) 14:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Except that you rarely have such a well ordered, exhaustive list. Usually you'll have, say, 50 things you want to do, but only 10 of them will be "priorities" (the rest of them will be done when you get around to it, or en passant of other goals). Of the ten you can order them first, second, third, etc. However, you can't simply drop the tenth from the list, as that would imply it on the same level as the other 40 things-you-want-to-do-but-aren't-going-to-address-right-now, which it's not. -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 17:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Heh heh heh. But actually they are all priorities, and the last one is the lowest priority. It might for instance be a thread (computer science). 213.122.36.77 (talk) 00:23, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

TammyMoet: wikt:prioritize.—msh210℠ 18:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Obviously, if the Queen says it, then it is de facto, The Queen's English ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 19:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Heh heh. Except, in this case, although she spoke in terms of "my government will ...", she or her staff did not write the speech. It was written by the government for her to read. At the State Opening of Parliament, it's important that the monarch be seen to be reading words written by others, so that they cannot be interpreted as her personal ideas now being implemented. The speech could hypothetically have a sentence like "Yeah - but no, but yeah, but no but ...", and the Queen would have no choice but to sit there in all her jewels and finery, doing her best Vicky Pollard imitation. Bizarre? Sure, but actually less improbable than the Queen coming up with her own words on such an occasion. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:12, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Weird seating arrangement

I was looking at the photo in the article cited immediately above (appearing at right) -- why is there a circular couch for people to sit on in the middle of the room? Isn't it awkward for whomever sits on it to face all the different directions? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 12:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

See woolsack. Kittybrewster ☎ 12:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

That article only discusses the woolsack at Westminster. The Canadian one is mentioned in this 1949 Ottawa Citizen article, as established by the Fathers of the Confederation, "made large like a miniature traffic circle with a pillar in the centre" and stuffed with Canadian wool. Your illustration is in Life magazine, which identifies the occupants as the supreme court justices. Gwinva (talk) 00:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Is it still there? Would someone add it to the "woolsack" page? Alansplodge (talk) 20:19, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Perp smart/street smart

In Jeffery Deaver's 'The Devil's Teardrop', I've found the sentence as follows:

He's perp smart, not street smart.

What does it mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Analphil (talk • contribs) 12:47, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Does perp help?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it might help to know more of the context. I have heard of "street smart." I think it is generally opposed to the type of "smart" that an educated person is, education in this case being "school-educated." I think that "street smart" does not necessarily imply engaged in any kind of illegal activity, though it is not impossible that the term could be used in that way. "Street smart" implies common sense in dealings of a fairly basic level. The term "perp smart" is entirely new to me. A "perp" is short for a "perpetrator," I think. Bus stop (talk) 12:58, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. In the sentence above, 'he' is the hero of the novel who is an ex-federal agent and good document examiner. So it seems to me that it is not the matter of being legal/illegal. It is kind of compliment, I think. Analphil (talk) 13:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Then it probably means that although he isn't street smart (streetwise), he's good at thinking like criminals (perpetrators) and thus finding them. +Angr 13:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

English word search

My son asked me whether there were any words with three e's in a row. It seems likely but I couldn't think of any offhand. I remember that there was a database you could search for such things but I can't remember how. Anyone know what I am thinking of? 75.41.110.200 (talk) 13:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

At Merriam-Webster.com you can do a star-search for *eee* and it will return all words containing that sequence. (All the hits, however, are two-word phrases with or without a hyphen, such as free enterprise and bee-eater, except "licenseee" which I take to be a typo.) +Angr 13:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

From English words with uncommon properties: Other candidates are the archaic agreeeth (third person singular present tense of the verb to agree), … and tweeer (comparative adjective of the qualifier twee meaning infantilely kitsch), though comparison to freer and seer argues against the third e. The use of tree as a transitive verb meaning "to drive up a tree" makes the dog the tree-er and the cat the tree-ee.

Also, see EEE at Triple Letters here. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 13:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Deee-Lite. Eeebuntu. Freeez. Leee John. All "words", but maybe not the sort you had in mind. The above mention of a dog and a tree suggests it may also be a weeer or peeer. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

But then, wouldn't a person with 6th sense be called a *seeer, as opposed to 'seer'? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Aha. I'd been wondering what members of the House of Lords spend all their time doing. Must be all the bars they have there. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:50, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I would insert a hyphen in all of the suggestions, but there is a trend towards omitting all hyphens, so, if they are not in the dictionary now, they might be in the future. Dbfirs 02:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers. I had forgotten to come back and check up on this. So Eee is rarer than I expected. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 19:55, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Place in Madagascar

I'm looking for the name of a place in Madagascar, which is written アンバトビィニッケル in Japanese. For those of you not able to read Japanese, that would be 'Anbatobiinikkeru' in romaji. Any ideas? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't matter - found it. Should be Ambatovy + nickel, two separate words. Never mind. :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Heh. At the translation company where I used to work, part of my job was deciphering non-Japanese placenames that had been written in katakana and putting them back into the Latin alphabet. One that sticks in my mind was Misshombījo, California. I had the world atlas out and was poring over the map of California for a long time before I realized it was Mission Viejo, as transliterated by someone who didn't know how it was pronounced. +Angr 14:58, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Ha! Yes, that sort of thing happens from time to time. Luckily we have the internet to save us time these days, but I can imagine it being sheer hell years ago trying to find/guess the 'original' names of people and places which had been transliterated into Japanese. Anyway, cheers. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Holy Trinity in German, Dutch, and Portuguese

Holy Trinity Catholic Church dominates the skyline of Coldwater, Ohio, so I've added my new photo of it to our article on that village, as well as to the German, Dutch, and Portuguese articles on the village. Could someone confirm or correct my translations of "Holy Trinity Church"? I've rendered the captions as Die Kirche Heilige Dreifaltigkeit in Coldwater, Heilige Drie-eenheidkerk in Coldwater, and Igreja de Santíssima Trindade respectively. Nyttend (talk) 17:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I asked for similar help with a church in Minster, Ohio some months ago; I didn't include "Coldwater" in the Portuguese caption because someone at pt:wp advised me that they don't generally include the name of the community in this context. Nyttend (talk) 17:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I personally think that, like many proper names, the name should not be translated. Our article for the cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris isn't titled Our Lady of Paris, after all. Note that the text of the German article calls it "Holy Trinity Church". Deor (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting; I'd failed to notice "Holy Trinity Church" in the text. But isn't Notre Dame an exception? We don't normally talk about "Sodor Vasilija Blazhennogo" in Moscow, for example. Nyttend (talk) 18:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I think that in German and Dutch, English terms are so common that it might seem a bit odd to translate the name of a church in a small American town. However, the correct German form would be "Die heilige Dreifaltigkeitskirche in Coldwater". Note that heilige isn't capitalized. Some research suggests that the correct Dutch form would be "De Heilige Drievuldigheidskerk in Coldwater". For Portuguese, it looks like "Igreja da Santíssima Trindade" is correct. Note that it is da, not de. Marco polo (talk) 19:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

If you want to translate the whole name into German, I think the best form would be "Die Kirche der Heiligen Dreifaltigkeit in Coldwater". "Die heilige Dreifaltigkeitskirche in Coldwater" sounds as if it were the church which were called holy—while it is the Trinity which is called holy.

By the way, I am German. And if I have made a mistake in English Grammar, I'd be grateful if you tell me the correct way to put it into words. -- Irene1949 (talk) 21:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Still, "Heilige Dreifaltigkeitskirche" has precedents in German-speaking areas: [11], [12], [13]. But I agree the name shouldn't be translated at German Wikipedia anyway. +Angr 21:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I know. Google found 2510 results for "Heilige Dreifaltigkeitskirche"—but it found 5730 results for "Kirche der Heiligen Dreifaltigkeit". And as I am a native speaker of German, it may be interesting for you which translation sounds better for me.

And I agree that it is correct if the name is not translated at German Wikipedia.-- Irene1949 (talk) 22:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Curiously, the names of some notable churches in Amsterdam are not translated on their English Wikipedia pages (Oude Kerk, Westerkerk, Nieuwe Kerk (Amsterdam)). However those in Berlin are (St. Hedwig's Cathedral, St. Mary's Church, Berlin, Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church). Maybe the Berlin churches are harder for non-German speakers to pronounce, although even I can manage "Marienkirche". Alansplodge (talk) 18:00, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

In Dutch you could say "De Heilige Drievuldigheidskerk", as suggested by Marco Polo, but "De Heilige Drie-eenheidkerk", "Drie-eenheidskerk" (with a "verbindings-s"), "Drieëenheidkerk" or "Drieëenheidskerk" would also be correct (some people might appreciate the three consecutive e's). A quick glance at some google results suggests the first form is more popular on Belgian sites, while the Dutch prefer the others.

Is it possible that the genitive case could serve in German—:"die Kirche der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit"? Michael Hardy (talk) 15:36, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Sure, that's what Irene1949 said above. +Angr 16:13, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

See also Evangelisch-Augsburgse Kerk van de Heilige Drie-eenheid (Warschau)[14] Alansplodge (talk) 19:32, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

May 26

dictionary

Hello all. I need a dictionary. Cost doesn't matter, but I can only have one. This dictionary should be reliable, comprehensive, and encompass both slang and dialect words as well as some degree of specialized words. It doesn't matter if it is British or American English (nor does it matter if it is Canadian, Australian, etc., etc.), but it should note the other regional spellings and usages as well. I would prefer some illustrations and appendices, general reference in the back. The problem is, there's about dozen major dictionaries and a bunch of minor dictionaries, and I can't choose! WHich would be best for me. do you think? 76.229.212.31 (talk) 02:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

If you have reliable internet access, there's not much need to have a print dictionary anymore. Between things like http://www.merriam-webster.com (for basics), http://wiktionary.org (good for idioms and stuff), and Google and Urban Dictionary (for slang, if you can take things with a grain of salt), you can find more stuff online than you can in a print dictionary, and you can usually find it faster. rʨanaɢ (talk) 02:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you care about etymology and the history of the words you're using? Do you want archaic and obsolete words, or is your interest only in words that are currently in use? I'm heavily in favour of the Oxford English Dictionary, but if you're only interested in current meanings of current words, you'll be wasting your money if you get it or an abridged version thereof. If you want the etymology, you could do well to get the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, an abridgement of the OED, while if you don't, you could do well to get the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, which is basically the OED minus the etymologies and other historical data. Nyttend (talk) 03:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I did a Google search for "how to choose a dictionary" and I found the following.

• http://www.wikihow.com/Choose-a-Dictionary
• http://www.f.waseda.jp/vicky/students/help/dictionary/dict.html
• http://www.f.waseda.jp/vicky/students/help/dictionary/dict3.html

-- Wavelength (talk) 03:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

For a reasonably portable general-use US dictionary, I like Merriam-Webster's Collegiate. (BTW, there are a bunch of cheap knock-offs called "Webster's", so you want the 'Merriam' in there.) If you want something really comprehensive, the OED is the only way to fly. — kwami (talk) 04:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Although the M-W Collegiate is what I tend to use for quick consultation, I'll put in a word for The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language as a very serviceable general-purpose dictionary. The OP says that he/she would like illustrations, and the photographic ones in the AHDEL surpass the drawings that tend to be used elsewhere. The Indo-European appendix is also a splendid feature. Deor (talk) 10:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Let me second the nomination of the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, even though it's British and I'm American. It's thorough and well-grounded and doesn't seem to have any weird lapses. I find the American Heritage Dictionary very unreliable and much too inclined to give bad usage a pass just because the usage has become common. (By bad usage, I mean usages that are redundant, illogical, or unclear, not just new.) The American dictionary I like the best is Merriam-Webster's Collegiate. Evangeline (talk) 21:37, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

The Shorter OED is the way to go; I wouldn't trust an American dictionary to get regional variations correct and from experience find them unreliable. Americans (yes, even the lexicographers) are weirdly obsessed with their particular usage and spellings. The Oxford, on the other hand, knows everything about English and will give you the bigger picture. If the two-volume Shorter is "too much dictionary", there is a whole range, including a "mini", see here: [15] Maedin\^talk 21:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget Webster's New World Dictionary, the official dictionary of the Associated Press. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:09, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Telestian

Speaking of the OED, does anyone have one handy? Is 'Telestian' both of the Earth and of Telesto? What of 'Telestrial'? Is there a 'Telestean'? — kwami (talk) 04:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

It couldn't be "of the Earth"; you're probably thinking of "tellurian", which is from "tellus" (related to "terra" and the forms derived from that). The OED doesn't have any of those words, incidentally. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I've seen something like this very occasionally, and I thought it might have s.t. to do with the Terra-Tellus connection. A Google Books search turns up A Life After Death Experience, which says there are 7 "dimensions", Terrestrial, Extra-terrestrial, Telestrial, Extra-telestrial, Telestial, Extra-telestial, and Celestial. Unless s.o. just made those up. — kwami (talk) 05:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

C.S. Lewis always used the term "Tellurian" in his science fiction trilogy, and I kind of prefer that word to the Latin-derived "Terran", although the latter is more common in modern SF. I think "terrestrial" has a slightly different nuance to it, encompassing small-e earth (land, etc.) rather than just Earth as a planetary object. Paul Davidson (talk) 06:01, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, Terrestrial/terrestrial is ambiguous the same way Earth/earth is. "Tellurian" does seem to have gone out of fashion. — kwami (talk) 07:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Sounds made up to me... Adam Bishop (talk) 05:53, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I can see online there's a "Saonian" in the OED. What's the root? (Sorry, I don't have access to my copy.) — kwami (talk) 05:50, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

There's no Saonian in the OED. (Or anything similar.) Gwinva (talk) 09:46, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

It may just be in the more recent Compact OED then. Thanks. — kwami (talk) 20:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not in the OED online, so I don't think it can be in any OED. There isn't Telestian, Telesto, Telestrial or Telestean either (as stated by Adam above) but there is telestic meaning " Of or pertaining to the mysteries, or to a hierophant; mystical", and telestial has a meaning to Mormons ("of or pertaining to the lowest degree of glory"). I think the planet and moon resident words are often invented by Science Fiction writers, but never gained sufficient usage to be listed in dictionaries. Dbfirs 17:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! — kwami (talk) 04:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Where can I get my fiction stories critiqued?

I used to work on some fiction pieces in my Creative Fiction Writing class at K-State. I had a good amount of critiques and revisions, but when I want to keep working on them, there have to be opportunities elsewhere, and most likely online.

Where can I submit chapters of my stories and receive a chapter-by-chapter critique of them? (I'll be sure to submit just one chapter at a time just so it doesn't feel too overwhelming for the critiquers.) --Let Us Update Wikipedia: Dusty Articles 16:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

That might be a better question for the Humanities reference desk. rʨanaɢ (talk) 18:05, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm surprised we only mention one in our article. Anyway, why don't you consult Absolute Write – they will be able to point you to the best places where the critiques are actually useful. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 18:40, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

"Is is"

Someone recently edited the article Shufflepuck Café to make this:

The General (also known as Eneg Doowtrop - "Gene Portwood" spelled backwards): A pig-like alien who pretends to be a military general, although all he really is is a militaristic gung-ho enthusiast. Recently divorced, he is addicted to shufflepuck, which he plays with fierceness and devotion.

into this:

The General (also known as Eneg Doowtrop - "Gene Portwood" spelled backwards): A pig-like alien who pretends to be a military general, although all he really is a militaristic gung-ho enthusiast. Recently divorced, he is addicted to shufflepuck, which he plays with fierceness and devotion.

I don't think "all he really is a militaristic gung-ho enthusiast" is even grammatically correct, let alone the correct meaning. The way I see it, the original version means that a militaristic gung-ho enthusiast is all that Eneg really is. In other words, Eneg is a militaristic gung-ho enthusiast, even though he pretends to be something else.

Now English is not my native language, and I am not even bilingual in it - I learned it as an entirely foreign language, albeit in my early school years. But I still think I know the grammar fairly well. Am I correct here? JIP | Talk 19:13, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Algebraist 19:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, you are correct; another is is definitely needed. Some English style guides recommend that a comma be used in "all he really is, is a militaristic gung-ho enthusiast" simply to avoid the odd appearance of "is is" in such situations. Deor (talk) 19:19, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x2 You're right, the edit was incorrect, although the 'is is' looks strange - A pig-like alien who pretends to be a military general, although really he is just a militaristic gung-ho enthusiast. would probably be better though. Mikenorton (talk) 19:23, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! I thought I was right, but as English is not my native language, I wasn't sure. I have edited the article to use Mikenorton's suggestion. JIP | Talk 19:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

This was just a typical automation error...tools like AWB look for common typos such as "the the", "that that", etc., and here it had a false positive ("is is" is a common typo, but in this case it's actually the correct wording). rʨanaɢ (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

(ec) What he is is ... is in the same class of expressions as No, that's not what I said. What I said was "<...>". It has its place when a certain type of contrast is wanted, but often it's possible to get by quite nicely without it. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

(See Pseudocleft) rʨanaɢ (talk) 19:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

What the second is is is needed in that sentence. 81.131.4.58 (talk) 06:11, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

An extreme example here. --Магьосник (talk) 13:30, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

[You can see more examples at List of linguistic example sentences. -- Wavelength (talk) 13:54, 27 May 2010 (UTC)]

May 27

Translating names of currency

I recently began to read a translation of A Doll's House where Nora borrows "four thousand and eight hundred crowns". Obviously, the "crown" in this play is the Norwegian krone, since Henrik Ibsen is Norwegian and that was the currency in use in 1879. Is it proper to translate names of currency in this manner if they correspond to a word in the local language? I don't think so, since I don't (or didn't) call them Mexican weights, Portuguese shields, Austrian shillings and its subdivision Austrian farthings, Croatian martens or South African edges. Still, I'd like a definitive answer. (I haven't finished yet, so if you answer please don't give away details of the later parts of the play.) Xenon54 (talk) 01:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

It is common in English to refer to "Czech crowns" as opposed to "koruny" or "korunas." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

We also convert the Russian копейка (kopeyka) into the pseudo-Russian-for-English-eyes "kopek". -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 03:24, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Swedish and former Danish currency (krona and krone I think) are also often called "crowns" in English. Perhaps it's translated because the languages are Germanic and the etymology transparent, or maybe it's just because crowns are a type of British coin. Paul Davidson (talk) 06:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree it's because there is also a British coin called a Crown (British coin) (25 pence in new money). I have also seen Austrian shillings and Turkish pounds following the same rule. Alansplodge (talk) 07:54, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The Dutch gulden was similarly rendered into English as "guilder". The Polish złoty is not, although it has basically the same meaning, "golden". I wonder why the Slovenian tolar was never called "Slovenian dollar" in English. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:48, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Mexican Dollar is quite common. Austrian Shilling is also not entirely unknown. As a Finn, I always found it silly when foreign people tried to use the "native" name of the Finnish Mark. "Swedish Krona" also sounds somehow clumsy to me, though less so. And does anyone call Greek Euro Cents "Lepta"?--Rallette (talk) 10:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

People in Norway and Sweden, when speaking English, often call their currency the "crown". Why not? That's the translation of krona/krone in other contexts. It completely makes sense to me to use "crown" in English. And similarly "mark" for the old Finnish money (markka). Another one is Irish money: I've dealt with people in North America who want to call it a "punt", but people speaking English in Ireland (which is most of them) call it a "pound". --Anonymous, 15:33 UTC, May 27, 2010.

Technically, it's former Irish money. They have now adopted the Euro. Besides, very few people in Ireland speak any form of "Irish". - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 19:20, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

• Oh, right, I forgot they use euros now. Sorry. --Anon, 16:50 UTC, May 28, 2010.

Well, very few people in Ireland speak Irish as their native language, but as much as 1/3 of the population speaks Irish fluently as a second language. Back when Ireland did use the pound, most people called it "pound" in most circumstances, but did call it the punt when it needed to be distinguished from the pound sterling; at least, that was my experience. +Angr 20:39, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Kopek

The above got me thinking. What do we classify the word "kopek" as? Most people would not regard it as an English word, as they would assume (incorrectly) that "kopek" is the native Russian word for this sub-unit of currency. Neither is it a Russian word - that's копейка (kopeyka). Neither is it a translation; more an anglicisation of the original Russian word into something slightly more English-sounding, but still not really English-sounding, and still not "English". Where does it fit, label-wise? -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 03:24, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I would say it is an Anglicisation. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:09, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

It's a loanword from Russian. Loanwords don't have to be as phonetically accurate to the source language's version be considered such.— Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 17:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't know that. The examples given are: E music (from French "musique"); Sp. chófer (from French "chauffeur". These simply respell the word in a more English or Spanish way; they don't remove any syllables or otherwise fundamentally change the word's form, the way копейка (kopeyka) has become 'kopek'. Do we have other examples of words that have been borrowed from other languages and undergone a more radical change than simply a respelling? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:37, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Sure. Most words borrowed from Native American languages have been worn down and massaged into a shape that English speakers can wrap their tongues around. +Angr 21:48, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. "Loanword" sort of flies in the face of the usual sense of "loan", where the general expectation is that the thing in question is not the receiver's property but is ultimately returned to the giver, and in no worse a condition than when it was lent. The words we're talking about are gifts, or more likely thefts, but not loans. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 01:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

A better metaphor would be a photocopy. Whether you call it a "loan", a "gift", or a "theft", it implies that the original owner is no longer in possession of it, which isn't the case with loanwords. But the wisdom of our ancestors is in the simile; and my unhallowed hands shall not disturb it, or the country's done for. And anyway, sometimes loanwords are given back. English borrowed tennis from French tenez, and French got it back as tennis. Japanese borrowed animeeshon from English animation, and English got it back as anime. +Angr 13:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Corrupt photocopy, then. (Is that the term for something that's recopied till it loses some part of its original definition?) I guess "loanword" is somewhat more serviceable than "corrupt photocopy word".  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:56, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

The English name for the Polish currency is 'zloty' (from Pol. 'złoty'). Both the pronunciation and spelling have changed here. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:01, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Kopek (or kopeck which I believe I've also seen in English) might not look similar to the singular Russian копейка, but it's closer to the plural genitive копеек (kopeyek), which is used with numbers whose one's place digit is 0, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9, as well as numbers 11—14 (e.g., пять копеек, "five kopeks"). — Kpalion^(talk) 14:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Very true, Kpalion. Yet, somehow I can't see that having had any role to play in the formation of our word "kopeck/kopek". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:56, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

The OED makes no attempt to explain how "kopek" was borrowed from "копейка". All the spellings it lists, with the possible exception of one 18th century spelling "kapeke", end in a consonant. (I assume that "copique" actually ends in a consonant sound, and I think "kapeke" probably does as well). --ColinFine (talk) 22:48, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

renegate

[16]

What does "renegate" mean?174.3.121.27 (talk) 08:09, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

"Turncoat". It's basically the same word as renegade, derived directly from medieval Latin renegatus rather than through Spanish. Deor (talk) 08:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Munasinghe"

How is the name "Munasinghe" pronounced? I believe it is of Sri Lankan origin, if that helps at all. Thanks! 220.239.57.132 (talk) 13:46, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

You can hear this surname here: [17]--151.51.5.254 (talk) 21:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Watershed moment

What's the origin of this use of the word, meaning a turning point/critical point or pivotal event ? StuRat (talk) 17:20, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The earliest use of the word in any sense—its "drainage divide" sense—cited in the OED dates to 1803, and the dictionary speculates that it was modeled on the synonymous German Wasserscheide, which came to be used in scientific writings around that time. The earliest figurative use cited is by Longfellow in 1878: "Midnight! The outpost of advancing day! ... The watershed of Time, from which the streams of Yesterday and Tomorrow take their way." Other cited examples of uses that refer to demarcations between periods of time are "a watershed of time between the Renaissance and the Counter-Reformation" (1886) and "... the daily preoccupations of ordinary people who were living through the 'watershed period'" (1973). It's pretty easy to see how such uses could have led to the attributive use of the word to refer to a turning point, as in the citation "On the Town, which Kelly himself describes as a watershed picture" (1980). The OED doesn't record any examples of "watershed moment" specifically; perhaps that combination is too recent. (The use of the word, mainly in the U.S., to mean "drainage basin" rather than "drainage divide" perhaps obscures the image on which the figurative uses are based.) Deor (talk) 20:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I look for a song name

Hello everybody. I heard a song from my my friend who grew up in the 60s and 70s in Communist China but I do not know the name. I think two of the lines went something like "我们是飞行军" adn “没一个子弹消灭个敌人", but they may have been from different songs. Can someone help identify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.248.239.40 (talk) 20:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything like that in Baidu; the phrase "我们是飞行军" got a lot of hits but none that looked like song lyrics. Variations of "每一颗子弹消灭一个敌人" also get some hits, but again no song lyrics. rʨanaɢ (talk) 20:37, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I searched your clue on the google and the answer might be "游擊隊歌" ("the Song of the Guerrilla" youtube). luuva (talk) 16:07, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, that looks like it just might be it. (So much for 百度更懂中文 ;) ). rʨanaɢ (talk) 17:26, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Japanese verb forms

Hi, I have some conflicting info about this stuff from different sources, and I'm hoping someone can clear it up.

1. I understand there are two ways of forming the potential form of -iru and -eru verbs (example: 着替えられる and 着替えれる). Are these interchangeable? If not, what is the difference?

2. The longer form of the potential (e.g. 着替えられる) appears to be identical to the passive form. Is that correct? If so, does this cause lots of ambiguity problems in actual use, or is the context usually enough to tell which is meant?

3. I have read also that the passive (e.g. 着替えられる) is sometimes cut down (to e.g. 着替えれる), thus making it identical to the shorter form of the potential. Is this also correct, and, if so, what is the difference between the "long" and "short" forms of the passive?

I hope this makes sense, and, if I've garbled any of it, I hope you can read through what I'm trying to ask. 86.184.237.39 (talk) 20:19, 27 May 2010 (UTC).

Addition: I've just noticed that Japanese verb conjugations and adjective declensions mentions a "passive potential form". Is this yet another sense, different from both the passive and the potential? Now I'm even more confused! 86.184.237.39 (talk) 20:34, 27 May 2010 (UTC).

1. They are interchangeable, however the shorter form is more colloquial.

2. Yes, it is correct that they are identical, but context usually supplies the meaning.

3. I cannot, off the top of my head, remember the passive being shortened, but if it is, then the difference would be the same as in Q1.

A 'passive potential' form would mean 'be able to be [eaten]'.

I hope this helps. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:55, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for your very helpful reply. Does the "passive potential" exist as a separate verb form, or is it constructed by somehow combining the passive and potential endings? Could you give any examples of how it is formed? 86.184.237.39 (talk) 21:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC).

As for (3), I don't think the passive form is ever shortened that way, only the potential form. It's possible that the divergence with the potential is occurring because it makes that form distinct and unambiguous. As for your last question, the 'be able to be eaten' passive potential KageTora suggests is something I've never heard used and assumed would be bad Japanese, but a Google search for '食べられれる' suggests at least some people are trying to use those forms together. (However, I think the Wikipedia article is referring to something else.) Paul Davidson (talk) 00:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Paul. 86.184.237.39 (talk) 03:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC).

There's no passive form 着替えられる. Because 着替える is an act only you can do. You may use 着替えさせる which means to order/force to change clothes and the passive form is 着替えさせられる. 汚れたTシャツを着替えさせられた/I was made/ordered to change my dirty T shirt. Or use 着せる. It means to dress/clothe/put on and the passive form is 着せられる。母親は赤ん坊に服を着せた/Mother dressed her baby. 赤ん坊は服を着せられた/The baby was dressed. As for the shortened form without ら, it's a fact a lot of native speakers use it, but it's grammatically wrong. So please do not use it. Oda Mari (talk) 09:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

"There's no passive form 着替えられる". Then the example at Japanese verb conjugations and adjective declensions#passive needs changing. I must admit that when I asked the question I wasn't paying any attention to the actual meaning of the example verb. I was purely focussing on the grammatical verb endings. Thanks. 86.161.86.200 (talk) 19:18, 28 May 2010 (UTC).

Well, actually, it didn't look strange to me either, probably because even verbs with no passive form used as passive can actually use the passive ending when used as an honorific or in the other use of the passive in Japanese where the action is deemed to be unwelcome or has a perceived negative impact on the speaker. I could see a possible context here where you were expecting your girlfriend, for example, to turn up to meet your parents in a lovely dress that she'd been wearing all day, but instead she had changed her clothes and turned up in a dirty t-shirt and ripped jeans, and this gave a bad impression. Here you could use 着替えられた, meaning roughly, 'she changed her clothes on me'. In this case, it is you, not her, who is the subject of this passive action. Japanese is funny that way. In a similar way, 死ぬ ('to die') has no passive, yet you can still say 犬に死なれた - 'my dog died on me', using the passive ending. Correct me if I'm wrong (Google gives 1.4 million hits for this exact phrase). Incidentally, the article linked to above calls this usage of the passive, the 'suffering passive'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:01, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

May 28

Chinese characters and readings

What are the Chinese characters featured in File:Chinese stamp in 1950.jpg? And what do they say in Pinyin and translated? The Commons page and some associated Wikipedia articles may need the Chinese text explained. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

The text at the top says something like "In Commemoration of the Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Alliance and Mutual Assistance". I can't give you the pinyin, because my knowledge of the characters comes from Japanese. However, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_Treaty_of_Friendship. Paul Davidson (talk) 08:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

These are the characters I can get out of my computer (two are missing): 中蘇友好同盟互助？約？訂記念. Like Paul, I only speak Japanese and don't know pinyin. Hopefully somebody will be along soon to fill in the gaps in the characters and provide pinyin. TomorrowTime (talk) 08:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

It is 中蘇友好同盟互助條約簽訂紀念. Each character links to Wiktionary; you can find pinyin there. --Kusunose 08:28, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Man, you fully pwned me. :P {{Sonia|talk|simple}} 10:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Here's the pinyin for the top (I'm only a zh-2, though) zhōng sū yóu hăo tóng méng fū zhù tiáo yūe qián dìng jì nìan. The bottom just says "chinese stamp or something like that.".{{Sonia|talk|simple}} 08:24, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for finding the ones for the top! WhisperToMe (talk) 11:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the pinyin of "互" is "hù", and "簽" is qiān. luuva (talk) 16:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Commodity Price Risk

What is "commodity price risk"?174.3.121.27 (talk) 02:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

You need to provide the context. A commodity is something that is the same no matter who produces it, such as corn, gold or oil. You probably know what price and risk are. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:40, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

It is the risk you are taking by owning commodity, since the price of that commodity may change. So if you bought 1000 tons it at $90 a ton, and the price goes down to $80 a ton, you have lost 10$ on each ton, which is $10,000. That is the risk you are taking when you buy these 1000 tons. --Lgriot (talk) 03:41, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Sao and Neso

Similar to my question above, I'm wondering if anyone knows, or can predict, what the English adjectival forms of names Sao and Neso from Greek mythology are. As in, 'Atlas is to Atlantean as Sao is to X'. — kwami (talk) 03:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, but on the basis of Sappho/Sapphic, I predict "Saic" and "Nesic". Unfortunately, I can't find either name in Liddell and Scott, so I can't even confirm that these two names decline the same way as Sappho. +Angr 15:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I doubt that anyone has ever felt the need to create adjectives based on these names. Like Angr, I can't tell how they would have been declined in Greek, since Hesiod, who is our ultimate source for the two names, is so discourteous as to use only the nominative forms. I can't even find a Greek or Latin writer who uses the name Erato in any case but the nominative or vocative, drat it. I give up; you can coin whatever adjectival forms sound best to you. Deor (talk) 16:29, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Aha! Apollodorus treats Cleio and Erato (and Clotho) as indeclinable (or at least as having accusatives identical to the nominatives), so something like "Saoan" and "Nesoan" might be the way to go. Deor (talk) 17:52, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. That's a bit OR for my purposes. I'm looking for adjectival forms for Solar System moons; some time ago I figured out "Mimantian" for "Mimas", after seeing a blog where people were at a lost as to what to use (*Mimian, *Mimasian, etc), and now JPL/Cassini has adopted it on their website, so I don't want to get these wrong. ('Mimantian' at least confirmed in a translation of Socrates, even if "Mimas" isn't mentioned.) BTW, I assume "Erotian" for "Eros" is correct, but if any of you want to try your hands at the others (Carpo, Anthe, Metis, + various ones listed as 'unattested' at the bottom of each table), please feel free! — kwami (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

These things become established only through usage, and if there hasn't been any usage, there can't be a "standard" or "accepted" form. I don't see any reason why "Erotic" wouldn't be just as acceptable as "Erotian", for instance, if there were no agreed-upon usage, especially since -ic comes from a Greek adjectival suffix, whereas -ian is Latinate. As far as I know, there are no real rules—other than euphony, perhaps—governing which suffixes are used in forming English adjectives from proper nouns. The stem of mētis (in Attic Greek, at least) is mëtid-; so should it be "Metidan" or "Metidian" or "Metidic" or something else? If I'm the first person to use the adjective, I get to decide, though my usage might be superseded by what others agree on. (For some reason I'm reminded of an early science-fiction novel, whose title escapes me at the moment, in which the inhabitants of Mars are called Martials.) Deor (talk) 18:56, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Along similar lines, many people have found the adjectival form for the planet Venus - "Venusian" - ugly, but the more regular and euphonious "Venereal" has unfortunately been pre-empted! Some astronomers and others have preferred the alternative "Cytherian" derived from an alternative name of the same goddess. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 21:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I've finally gotten around to looking at List of adjectivals and demonyms of astronomical bodies, Kwami, and I must say that the "sourcing" in that article is rather odd, to say the least. Adjectival "Thalassian", for a moon that wasn't discovered until 1989, is sourced to Robert Browning (presumably The Ring and the Book, 9.893), a person who died in 1889 (even though thalassic is a much more common English adjective derived from Greek thalassa)? "Larissean" is sourced to an English translation of Boccaccio's Teseida? Is there any evidence that any astronomer at all has ever used these forms when referring to the moons in question? Isn't scientific usage, or at least some evidence of usage with regard to the celestial objects themselves, what is needed for verification of these proper adjectives? Deor (talk) 23:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I was just trying to find sources for adj. forms of the names, regardless of whether those are attested in astronomical contexts. If a moon is named after a character in Pope, it's not a stretch to assume that the derived forms of the Popean name will be inherited by the moon. Of course, specifically astronomical forms may also exist. "Thalassic" may be perfectly good; I've pretty much only looked for justification for the forms already in the article. — kwami (talk) 00:40, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, analogy with adjectival forms of similar names would suggest that all the Greek female names ending in -e should have adjectival forms ending in -ean ("Arsinoean", for example, has been used as a demonym for the inhabitants of any of the places named Arsinoe) and that those of female names ending in -a should end in -an; but I doubt that you'll find any prior uses for most of them. I'll be curious to hear what you come up with for Juliet. One would expect that someone would have felt the need for an adjectival form of the name, but "Juliettish" is the only thing that occurs to me offhand. And "Mab" is even worse! Deor (talk) 01:05, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Malayalam pronounciation

Malayalam has the epenthetic vowel ŭ in word-final position. Our article gives the pronounciation [ɨ̆]. However there are many Malayalam place-names in whose romanized form the epenthetic vowel is omitted, e.g. Palakkad (Pālakkāṭŭ), Wayanad (Vayanāṭŭ), Lakshadweep (Lakṣadvīpŭ), Kozhikode (Kōḻikkōṭŭ) etc. Our article on Kozhikode gives the pronounciation as [koːɻikːoːɖ]. There is also an audio file, in which clearly no epenthetic vowel is audible. Now I'm wondering if the epenthetic vowel is really always omitted in correct Malayalam pronounciation - anyone knows more about this? --BishkekRocks (talk) 09:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

"The Nasty Party"

The Conservative Party in the UK has an image they have struggled and tried for well over a decade to shed. Even now they are in power it seems that it hasn't entirely gone away (last night's Newsnight spoke of avoiding going back to the days of The Nasty Party). Where did this phrase come from, do we know who coined it and so on?

Thanks, 130.88.162.46 (talk) 11:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Theresa May ("During her speech at the 2002 Conservative Party Conference while making a point about why her party must change, May controversially stated that the Conservatives were currently perceived as the "nasty party"") - X201 (talk) 11:40, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that May was the first to popularise the "nasty party" epithet, but the idea behind it goes back a long way - as Bevin said "That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." DuncanHill (talk) 11:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Bevin may well have thought that, but the popular image of the Tories as nasty, correctly identified by the OP, doesn't go back that far. It dates back to Margaret Thatcher. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:41, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

So Theresa May definitely coined it but the feeling that led to it pre-dates her, by a disputed amount. Thanks, that's pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Next academic year I'm doing a course on British Political History, so hopefully I'll learn a fairly definitive answer to the second part. Prokhorovka (talk) 14:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

There is, I suggest, also an unstated sub-text that the term "Nasty Party" echoes "Nazi Party" (especially since in British English the "-z-" in the latter is most often pronounced "-tz-"), both being perceived as too "Right Wing" by non-supporters and the latter having sometimes been referred to as "the Nasty Party" or "The Nasties" back in the WW2 era. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 21:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Churchill was one of the very few public figures who didn't say "nah-tzi". His "nah-zee" became one of his trademarks. But yes, most everyone says "nah-tzi". (Was there ever a Chinese philosopher named Na Tzi, by the way?) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Two-part title of book

These are language questions for two reasons, because they involve terminology for some features of literature. Recently, it has become common for a book title to have two parts, as in the example "An Inconvenient Truth: The Planetary Emergency of Global Warming and What We Can Do About It". What is the professional term, if there is one, for a book title of that kind? What is the professional term for the first part, in this example, "An Inconvenient Truth"? What is the professional term for the second part, in this example, "The Planetary Emergency of Global Warming and What We Can Do About It"? -- Wavelength (talk) 16:28, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know, the name for the part after the colon is the subtitle. (When I wrote my Ph.D. dissertation, my sister congratulated me on managing to give it a title without a colon in it!) +Angr 16:32, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Subtitle it is. As you can see from the article, it's not really a new phenomenon. decltype (talk) 16:36, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

For (possible) interest, a formerly common alternative method of subtitling was to use the conjunction "or" instead of a colon, as in, for example, Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. On actual title pages, punctuation such as the comma in this instance was often omitted, and instead the "or" would be set on its own line between the title and subtitle in smaller type than either. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 20:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

To illustrate 87.81's remark, I just felt like pointing out that, in addition to our wonderful list of works with the subtitle "Virtue Rewarded", we also have a list of works with the subtitle "Constancy Rewarded". Both feature titles which are not recent at all. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

These belong in the top 100 Unusual Articles list. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:42, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

[Wikipedia has Wikipedia:Unusual articles. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:32, 28 May 2010 (UTC)]

They were long a feature of opera titles, too, and plays. In fact, some operas are far better known by their subtitle than by their official main title - Don Giovanni's full title is Il dissoluto punito, ossia il Don Giovanni (The Rake Punished, or Don Giovanni). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:41, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Are the answers to my three questions, respectively, "double title", "main title", and "subtitle"?

-- Wavelength (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

computador and computadora?

Spanish has both masculine and feminine forms? Does Spanish differentiate between them in some way? --117.204.81.235 (talk) 20:43, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

May 29

Math word complaints

Shouldn't binomial and polynomial be binominal and polynominal, in line with the word nominal? (In fact multinominal, to keep it all Latin? Or polyonymon?) And the degrees of expressions go: linear, quadratic, cubic, quartic, quintic. Quadratic is degree two. Quartic is degree four. Etymologically, aren't they the same word, quadr- being from quatuor, four? What should quadratics really be called instead - binics, maybe? I know there's no chance of changing terminology to suit me, but if you can confirm that it's all messed up I might at least feel a bit better. 81.131.42.72 (talk) 00:41, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Sometimes the subsequent expressions in a series benefit from regularity as an afterthought. Some other series are the following.

• (thousand,) million, billion, trillion, quadrillion, quintillion, and so forth
• (singleton,) twin, triplet, quadruplet, quintuplet, and so forth
• whole, half, third, fourth or quarter, fifth, sixth, seventh, and so forth
• first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and so forth
• ... trigon or triangle, quadrilateral, pentagon, hexagon, heptagon, and so forth

-- Wavelength (talk) 01:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Ha, yes - and a pentangle is a different kind of thing again. Thanks. Does "binic" sound a coherent kind of made-up word, coherent with quartic and quintic, I mean? Have I made it up right? 81.131.42.72 (talk) 01:29, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I am not able to make a judgement about the correctness or incorrectness of *binic. The word bīnī means in twos, by twos, two by two, two each and bis means two times, twice. See Latin Number Names, which shows that even the Romans did not use a perfectly symmetrical system. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:47, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

So it could also be *bisic, I think you're hinting? Good info. 81.131.42.72 (talk) 01:51, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Also, there is the following series.

• solo, duet, trio, quarter, quintet, sextet, septet, and so forth.

Also, the systematic element names deliberately use combining forms derived from Latin for 0, 1, 4, and 7, and combining forms derived from Greek for 5, 6, and 9. The form b(i) is probably from Latin, and the forms tr(i) and oct appear to be able to be derived from either Latin or Greek.

By the way, the Latin word for four (quattuor) has two ts. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

(ec) As you suggest, another common wrong word is "hexadecimal", which tangles Greek and Latin roots. Either "sexadecimal" or "hexadenary" would be better, but there are more important things to worry about. 01:34, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

The Latin word for sixteen is sēdecim (or sexdecim), so English *sedecimal or *sexdecimal might be more consistent with the Latin. Also, please note that the word sexagesimal is related to the number 60. The hypothetical word *hexadenary is also partly from Greek and partly from Latin. The hypothetical word *hexadecadic is entirely from Greek. If you are especially adventuresome, you might wish to read about quaternions, octonions, and sedenions, keeping handy that external link which I provided. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:03, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Apparently the word used by mathematicians such as Leibnitz, Euler and Newton, back when writing in Latin was the done thing, was "polynomium". Why did they opt for a Greek prefix? ([18] I didn't know we had a Latin Wikipedia!) 81.131.23.148 (talk) 03:20, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Bengali help

Hi! I found http://web.archive.org/web/20060930072857/http://www.detroit.k12.mi.us/dressCode_Bengali.pdf - I want to get the Bengali name of Detroit Public Schools for its Commons category - But this document does not let me copy the text from it, and I don't know where to find a good automatic translator for this. What is the Bengali name for the school district as seen in this document? WhisperToMe (talk) 01:35, 29 May 2010 (UTC)