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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sandstein (talk | contribs) at 11:36, 6 January 2013 (→‎Bali ultimate: closed). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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    Bali ultimate

    Bali ultimate is topic-banned, as outlined in WP:TBAN, for six months from the area of conflict as defined in WP:ARBPIA#Area of conflict, that is, everything related to the Arab-Israeli or Palestinian-Israeli conflict.  Sandstein  11:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Bali ultimate

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Bali ultimate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ARBPIA#Editors_reminded
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 00:30 28 December 2012 "Modern ignoramuses can start here ... This place is pathetic that it gives equal voice to experts and propagandists (yes, I'm talking about "ankhmorpork" and "brewcrewer" when I write that). If they suggest that wire services don't move opinion pieces they're either lying or ignorant". Bali ultimate earlier specified that he himself was the "expert"; this leaves the others as the "propagandists", to which he adds the "either lying or ignorant" provocation. The edit summary here makes an attempt to squirm out of this being a direct personal attack, but is then reversed by the edit summary in the next diff;
    2. 00:34 28 December 2012 "You know what, here's the massive opinion section at Reuters for the propagandists (anonymous ones, notice)" with edit summary "totally full of it, and proven to be so. They should be ashamed, but they have no honor". (my emphasis)
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on 4 October 2012 by Elen of the Roads (talk · contribs) "This page is under WP:ARBPIA sanctions. I consider your conduct in making posts of this kind to come under the heading of seriously failing to adhere to expected standards of behaviour. Consider yourself lucky that the longer block under that sanction was not imposed on this occasion. Please find a way to conduct your disagreements in a less aggressive and provocative manner" - note the conduct in question was an incident where Bali ultimate was making the same assertions about other editors being "propagandists"
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    • 02:46 28 December 2012 Bali ultimate removes warning from uninvolved administrator The Bushranger (talk · contribs) with edit summary "run along to activities more suited to your talents".
    • I consider the original accusation of "hounding" to be unfounded, and quite frankly the whole thing should've been closed down long ago.
    • I've not edited the ANI thread nor the Operation Pillar of Defense article (an Israeli strike against Hamas, therefore clearly covered by WP:ARBPIA) where the disagreement started, but Bali ultimate has made some similar comments about me in the past (that one was not related to an ARBPIA issue) so he is not at present on my Christmas card list.
    • The other editors involved have not indulged in any ad hominem behaviour in that ANI thread on either side of the dispute (silly though it is), thus making these personal attacks all the more unreasonable.
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABali_ultimate&diff=530128997&oldid=530078648

    Discussion concerning Bali ultimate

    Statement by Dan Murphy

    How amusing. I stand by my statement that anyone who says that wire services don't typically move opinion pieces are either ignorant or liars. There is no third option. I'll go further and say an attempt to disqualify news reporting on the basis of offensive opinion pieces in the same outlet is a low tactic, typical of the gaming in this topic area at this website. I am not aware of any outlet (and I read lots of them -- lots of them) that has never moved an opinion piece that I didn't find offensive in some way or another. That includes my own employers. So it goes. Nableezy: Yes, we probably have little in common in our views about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. My bedrock value is intellectual honesty. As long as folks have that, they'll have few problems with me. Well, I'm in Cairo for the next couple of weeks working. Have fun y'all.Dan Murphy (talk) 15:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Comments by others about the request concerning Bali ultimate

    Since did ANI fall under ARBPIA? Darkness Shines (talk) 11:27, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Since it's used to further a dispute about an Israeli airstrike on Hamas. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:30, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Ya, but that was not what Bali posted about was it? Did he even mention the article? Or the content dispute? Anyway everyone gets overexcited at ANI, it is hardly a hanging offence. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:02, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, he mentioned the content dispute. People do indeed get overexcited at ANI, but the arbitration remedy in question says "assuming good faith of all editors including those on the other side of the real-world dispute, writing with a neutral point of view, remaining civil and avoiding personal attacks" - it does not mention "except when you get overexcited at ANI". As I already pointed out in the request, this is not a case of "everyone" getting overexcited, it's a case of one specific editor once again attempting to personalise the PIA dispute in a way that he's been warned about (and sanctioned for) previously. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 12:25, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • It would be nice if Bali would substantiate his "expert view" that mainstream news networks publish hate-filled diatribes against ethnic groups. Ankh.Morpork 13:00, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • This has to be among the sillier AE threads in some years, and that is saying something. Yes, one editor is overexcited, the editor who gleefully brought an AE thread over a comment that any number of administrators had already seen and any one of them could deal with if they felt it worthy of something more than a shrug. nableezy - 14:53, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Looks like a straightforward violation of both WP:NPA and Discretionary Sanctions. It is up to admins whether to do anything about it. Looking at their user page, this is only one example of this user's behavior in this manner. Sadly, this is now so common on Wikipedia that maybe it has become acceptable. We will see shortly by the reaction of AE admins. Either way, it is useful because some clarity regarding civility enforcement in senstive disputes (and not only on I/P) might emerge as a result - BorisG (talk) 15:09, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I really don't think this is a frivolous or silly AE case. Perhaps Bali was a constructive editor at some point, but in the IP area over the past year, nearly all his actions appear to have been disruptive, calling this person or that a propagandist. His recent action on his talk page seems to underscore this - deleting a warning against personal attacks by Bush Ranger with the following edit summary: "run along to activities more suited to your talents" [1] and deleting Demiurge's notification of the AE [2] with the following summary: "tootle along dearie". It seems quite apparent that Bali has no desire to reform his disruptive behavior or even recognize that there is a problem. His IP-related activity on Wikipediocracy [3] also deserves a closer look, where he's identified his top 10 editors promoting a "pro-settler agenda coupled with an agenda to dehumanize Palestinians in particular and Muslims in general" as part of a concerted "propaganda effort" on Wikipedia. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:16, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Who cares? Completely pointless report. Volunteer Marek 19:10, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • This request does not refer to editing on articles or their talk pages, so should be dismissed. I do not personally agree with Bali ultimate's use of WP:ANI to soapbox, but it seems that many other editors play similar games. Mathsci (talk) 20:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Cailil: The OED defines "propagandist" as: 1. A person who produces or disseminates propaganda, esp. as a political strategy; an advocate of the systematic use of propaganda; a person devoted to the propagation of a particular doctrine, idea, etc. Assuming good faith, as we ought to do, let's suppose that Bali Ultimate meant the word in the third sense: a person devoted to the propagation of a particular doctrine, idea, etc. A brief glance at the contributions of the editors to whom Bali Ultimate applied the term will show that he is correct. Just because you think the word always has negative connotations, in fact it does not. Regardless of what one thinks of the civility policy it is not possible to enforce it sensibly if we do not pay attention to the actual meanings of the words used.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • AGF is not a suicide pact; when "propagandist" is combined with "lying" and "ignorant" and "they have no honor" and the insinuations about the other editors' opinions being worth less because they are (in Bali ultimate's opinion) "anonymous" and all the rest of it, then yes, it's more than reasonable to believe the word is being used with a negative connotation. Presumably Bali ultimate could have clarified that if he made a statement - but it seems he has chosen not to. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • If someone asserts as a statement of fact something that's demonstrably false then it's not an attack to say that they're either lying or they're ignorant. In fact it's a tautology.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 03:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is a tautology often used to make personal attacks. How hard is it to say "You are mistaken"? Rich Farmbrough, 16:53, 2 January 2013 (UTC).[reply]
    Cailil, since when exactly has ANI been unable to police itself? I was unaware that there was a dearth of administrators there, or even in that section. It doesnt really matter, I doubt Bali will care, but you dont see anything wrong with the idea that one of the few people on Wikipedia that is actually qualified to write about this topic would be barred from doing so? Because some random person who is watching and waiting for the chance to say "gotcha" and come running here doesnt have anything better to do? That seems a bit backwards, but then again so do most things on Wikipedia. Never mind, carry on. nableezy - 19:15, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    A battleground mentality is not a suitable qualification for writing about this topic area, no. As for ANI, yes there's less admins than usual around at the moment, and quite a few of them have been busy blocking each other and/or recovering from the consequences. Your insinuation that I'm "waiting and watching" and have "nothing better to do" - yes I watchlist ANI, but that's hardly unusual. Given the number of AE requests you've brought against your ideological opponents, it seems a rather odd thing to say. I'm in the fortunate position of not having any ideological opponents in this topic area, but I don't see that disqualifying me from making an AE request. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    A battleground mentality is not a suitable qualification for writing about this topic area, no. - you obviously have no idea of what you're talking about.Volunteer Marek 03:00, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I think there was maybe one time that I brought a complaint about something I wasnt involved in. About something that happened on an article's talk page. And when I say qualified, I dont mean some random person who read the wiki rulebook on how to "be nice". I mean somebody who has professional qualifications. And come on now, you may not have ideological opponents, but you rather obviously have personal opponents, opponents that you for whatever misguided reason wish to see punished for past sleights. And by the looks of it you probably succeeded. Congratulations, really. No sarcasm at all. nableezy - 03:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    It isn't about "being nice", it's about repeatedly violating an arbcom ruling. A scrap of paper doesn't mean much if a person is demonstrably incapable of acting in a professional, or even reasonable, manner when editing in a particular topic area. (Actually the repeated instances, always on the same side, in the same topic area, make any such scrap of paper look to mean a great deal less.) And my concern here isn't about "past sleights", my concern is about behaviour that is plainly detrimental to the encyclopedia - just as that has been my concern every other time I've got involved in this topic area. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:51, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    This is just foolish. Whats the aim here, a cooperative editing environment, or an encyclopedia? I dont want you to think that I say this because Bali is my ideological ally, Id bet lots and lots of money that he would disagree with most of my positions. He doesnt even spend that much time editing in the topic area, but when he does he is an asset to the goal of making an encyclopedia. Yall are lucky enough to have somebody paid to write about the Middle East do it for free here. You would be wiser to ask him what he thinks is wrong rather than shut him up. nableezy - 05:54, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Perhaps pompously declaring that you have self-imposed a block, which you are supposedly still under, and then flagrantly flouting it, has given rise to the impression that your editing can be "dishonest"? Ankh.Morpork 11:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I try to save admin and editors time by imposing my own sanctions for inadvertent slip-ups, yes. In the last case, no one made a fuss. It was a good faith error. But I dislike lapses of attention in myself, and so suspended myself from editing articles . What does this quiet notification on my own obscure page, and my observance of it, generate in the hostile environment some enjoy stirring? Contemptuous accusations of ‘grandiose’ grandstanding, self-promotion, ‘much fanfare’, suggestions that I am ‘advertising how ethical I am (otherwise people might get the wrong impression by just looking at (my) behaviour’. And now, here, your own spin that I am ‘flagrantly flouting it’, that my declaration was ‘pompous’ and justifies the impression I am ‘dishonest’. There are a lot of abusive adjectives being thrown my way here, that far outweigh in malicious throwweight the remarks you and a few others find so deplorable in Bali Ultimate. For the record, on my page where I list my self-suspensions, it should be clear that they refer to article editing, and I have not edited any I/P article since 9 December (well I did slip up just once and realizing the error immediately self reverted). What is being flouted here is both an ability to read honestly the record, and to assume good faith, proof enough that this place is poisoned by sheer POV-pushing tacticism. Nishidani (talk) 12:32, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't make out if this is sad or hilarious, though I am sure this case is ridiculous. I can just imagine if these administrators had any power in the real world, everytime the Southern Poverty Law Center were to point out a hate group these admins would attack the SPLC for not being nice while ignoring the terrible actions of the hate groups. Sepsis II (talk) 15:53, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Disclaimer: my comment is not about BU but about general civility approach. There is a huge difference between general political discourse, where SPLC operates, and where freedom of speech is paramount, and a collaborative workplace like Wikipedia, where civility of internal communication is essential to create an appropriate collaborative environment. I think of Wikipedia as a workplace, and try to talk to people the same way I talk to colleagues. Not as a pub or a sports stadium, where different standards of civility apply. You don't tell your work collagues that they are lying or ignorant, even when you think they are, do you? And before someone points out the difference, it does not matter if the work is paid or unpaid, under your real name of a pseudonim. Obviously, many editors do not share my approach. But for now, wp:civility is still one of the four pillars of wikipedia. If they disagree, they need to campaign to change the policy. - BorisG (talk) 04:41, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure the analogy works well. If Wikipedia were a work place I think a large number of people would probably have been fired for acting against the interests of the organization, misusing resources to pursue outside interests and reputation damage etc, together with the people who collaborated with them. As for civility, it's a tricky issue but I see that the policy refers to "ill-considered accusations of impropriety" rather than "well considered accusations of impropriety that are consistent with evidence presented". In the blocking for incivility section it says "Be sure to take into account all the relevant history" among other things. I don't think that has happened in this case. Of course I'm wiki-lawyering and sampling the policy in a biased way but that is probably because my view is that the root of the problem is the presence of editors who edit in a systematically biased way and Wikipedia's apparent inability or unwillingness to deal with them rather than people's reactions to them. If I were an AE admin I would set Dan/BU a challenge - provide sufficient evidence to support your statements, it will be examined and the editors you are concerned about will be <some suitable sanction> if your concerns are found to be valid. If you are unable or unwilling to do that, you will be <some suitable sanction>. This seems like a better approach to me. AE needs to develop ways to address causes as well as effects. It needs to be able to identify and deal with bias and civil POV-pushing in the ARBPIA topic area as well as incivility. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:37, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    tl;dr... go watch the youtube videos of the guy and it won't be surprising that he isn't making friends here even with people who share the same bias.Cptnono (talk) 05:55, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Reading is underrated around here. nableezy - 06:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Sean, I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree regarding civility. I work in a large organisation, and deal not just with colleagues but also with students, some of whom are lazy, ignorant, cheating, all sorts of things. And it is not wrong (indeed, it is required) to point out their faults and indiscretions, and indeed to seek sanction, etc, but it must be done in a civil manner. If someone is a fool, it is never useful to tell them. There are always other ways to state your concerns. And no, the existence of proof that a statement is incorrect, biased etc, is not a valid reason for using the word lying. As for bias, etc, well I agree that this is a serious problem on Wikipedia, maybe more serious than incivility. But (1) everyone has bias, although few would admit it, even to themselves. And (2), in my view, incivility does not help solve the bias problem. - BorisG (talk) 07:04, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem for me is that incivility is treated like noise when it should be treated more like signal. Like pain, ignoring it or doing nothing but switching it off is usually not a smart move. I'm happy to admit my bias on the civility issue as I don't see civility as any more effective than incivility here although incivility has the advantage of sometimes being funny. I agree that incivility does not help solve the bias problem but does it really change anything ? Call me cynical but I have a hard time believing that Dan/BU's targets suffered in any way or that what he said damaged the functioning of the topic area at all. Perceived effectiveness of civility with respect to behavioral changes here (not that I can think of any examples of the effectiveness of civility off hand) is likely to just be regression toward the behavioral mean. Imposing civility doesn't seem to be effective, it's just something that Wikipedia has decided helps, like prayer and snake oil. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:56, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    "I have a hard time believing that Dan/BU's targets suffered in any way" -- personally I find it difficult to imagine that someone would make this type of outburst, repeatedly, unless they believed it likely to have some effect on the targets or on others' perceptions of the targets. Seriously, what other purpose does all this "shitheel" stuff have? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:26, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know if "cynical" is the right term for someone who completely reverses himself when discussing his allies vs his opponents. [5]. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:49, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    This is an example of the inherent dishonesty of fake civility and the way it is used in the topic area as doublespeak. It's also an example where incivility on my part would be very appropriate but alas ineffective. NMMNG, you might want to read what I wrote after that where you will note that I said "if he...could support the accusation with sufficient evidence I would have no objection at all to the label being used because it would be accurate" and here at AE and ask yourself whether it is likely that I think everything Dan said qualifies as "a pile of evidenceless idiotic crap" or whether I think there are editors who can reasonably be described as propagandists. Then you can try to look for the bit where I say "If you are unable or unwilling to do that, you will be <some suitable sanction>". The rules dictate that Dan should likely receive a block for what he said just like Bugs should have been blocked but the substance of the cases are, in my view, quite different. Either way, it is evidence that matters. Editors should be given the opportunity to support their statements, no matter how incivil, with evidence. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:47, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think anyone can argue that there are not propagandists editing wikipedia, and that they do damage to wikipedia and annoy the hell out of other editors. If one editor declares another a propagandist, and the declarer can provide substantial evidence of their claim, it should not be taken as an attack, similar to when one editor seriously questions the competence of another editor. I think Bali should have filed a more official complaint against these two proclaimed propagandists rather than what he did, though this faux pas is not serious enough for administrative action so long as Bali can prove his claims. Sepsis II (talk) 20:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I follow this general rule: Editors that recklessly throw around the propagandist label toward others on Wikipedia are generally propagandists themselves or lack the patience and good-faith necessary to work constructively with others on Wikipedia. I mean, it's laughable that Mr. Murphy included me (and others) on a top 10 list of editors pushing an Israeli "pro-settler agenda"[6] when I sparingly edit such articles. Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Who are your "colleagues," Seraphimblade? I object to the topic ban. Truth is truth, don't ban the messenger.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • That phrase is generally taken to mean the other people able to edit that section. Thus, not you or me :) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:08, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    What this request demonstrates is just how dysfunctional WP:AE is, on the administrator side. It doesn't just fail to solve problems in contentious topic areas it makes them worse. The discussion on Dan's talk page [7] as well as some of the above (ignoring the usual partisan bickering) is basically saying, "Yes, Dan, you're right, but you didn't put it in the right words and we have these DISCRETIONARY SANCTIONS in this topic area so we must punish you because that's how Arbitration Enforcement works!". In the minds of the admins who self-select onto this page this constitutes "solving" this problem. Now, this kind of thinking, if it had a track record of actually improving the situation in contentious topic areas, would perhaps be justified. But this whole IP mess has been getting worse and worse and worse, and all the WP:AE sanctions handed out in the past (to both sides) haven't improved the situation one bit. In fact the more WP:AE gets involved in the IP area, the worse it gets. Maybe that's a clue that you guys don't have the competence to intervene in this topic area (if anyone does) and should stop pouring the gasoline onto the fire (even if that is done with well intentions). One piece of evidence for why and how this is happening is how disconnected the discussion in the "Comments by others about the request concerning Bali ultimate" section is (which, while full of bickering, actually sort of manages to address the real issue at hand) from the discussion in the "Result concerning Bali ultimate" section is. The latter can basically be described as "we don't know what the fuck we are doing but we got to do something so let's hand out some bans and feel all self-righteous". It's hubris.

    What is really needed is a general ban from people filing IP related requests, or at least a ban on all the admins that have been active on WP:AE for the past few years from handling IP related requests in the foreseeable future since their track record is so abysmal. I'm not asking for an improvement (it's a difficult topic area), just, please, stop making it worse! Volunteer Marek 01:36, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Any evidence that AE sanctions make things worse, please? I am not sure it is getting worse, but if it does, please show that this is as a result of AE sanctions. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 01:47, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Go through the history page of WP:AE for the past few years. The only conflating factor is the Wikipedia-wide decline in editor participation which translates into a bit less fighting, even in this contentious topic, essentially because people have gotten bored (which is a good thing). Other than that, since this request looks just like a request from 2007, 2008 or 2009 that pretty clearly illustrates that at the very least things haven't gotten better. Have they gotten worse because of WP:AE? Causality is hard to demonstrate conclusively. But the very fact that all these IP conflict people ALWAYS come running to WP:AE on the flimsiest of excuses is pretty good evidence of the fact that they regard WP:AE and the dupes who "administrate" it as a pretty effective battleground tool. Like I've said before, for topic areas like IP, WP:AE is just the equivalent of exporting new weapon technologies to war torn countries. It doesn't solve the issues, just ups the stakes. Stop it. Stop "administratin'".Volunteer Marek 02:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmm, so what you're saying is that the people from "2007, 2008 or 2009" that behaved like this either got banned from the topic area, or "got bored" (probably due to having been banned from the topic area on other accounts too many times). And this is an argument that this person with this 2007-style approach to the topic area should not be removed from it for a while? I'm not buying it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Any honest reading of what I said above makes that clear. The fact that this topic area is still a problem after five years of arbitration enforcement is illustrated by the filing of this report, which just exemplifies the entrenched battleground mentality of some of the participants. The discussion by the admins below illustrates how this mentality is enabled by them.Volunteer Marek 15:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    VM, I think you misread the problem. The root problem here is that its never about the content. Look at what happened prior to Murphy's comments. A user who regularly uses such "sources" as Cybercast News Service, UN Watch, or Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (all in the same edit!) when it suits him attempted to disqualify one of the few Palestinian news organizations on the basis of their having published an op-ed that he found particularly offensive. That is the type of problem that AE should solve, by kicking such an editor to the curb for hypocritical gaming and tendentious editing. But no. Another user holding a grudge from an earlier interaction with Murphy saw in this absurdly hypocritical issue a comment made by Murphy as an opportunity to exact revenge. As though Murphy, and not Wikipedia, suffers from a ban. If any one of the admins were willing to look at AnkhMorpork's and Bali ultimate's contributions to this topic area, or for that matter Bali ultimate's and Demiurge1000's, and make a determination as to which one of those two Wikipedia would be better off with when looking at the point of this place supposedly is, they would be unable to justify removing Murphy. But they dont do that. The content almost never matters. Its always these trivialities that are given immense attention as though they have anything to do with writing an encyclopedia. And Im sure you realize this, but nothing is going to change any minds in that section below. I dont know if they know that their decision damages the encyclopedia, or if they dont care if it does. The collegial environment, thats what counts. The articles, not so much. This place is a waste of time, time much better spent convincing people that because of dumbfounding decisions like this and concerted efforts to turn articles into propaganda pieces (like ...) that nothing they read on Wikipedia on anything even remotely controversial can be trusted .nableezy - 04:28, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    That is the type of problem that AE should solve (my emphasis) - I don't think we're disagreeing here.Volunteer Marek 15:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    So VM, you are now saying it is not necessarily getting worse, but it is not getting better, and AE does not seem to solve the problem. That much I tend to agree, but this is a far cry from saying AE is making things worse. Admins are just doing their bit enforcing established discretionary sanctions, and it is not their fault at all that the problem is not getting solved. Maybe the ArBcom sanctions are not the best tool, maybe the whole process is inadequate, but this is not the fault of volunteer admins. Two more points: (1) AE have seen cases not just on civility, but also on other serious policy vioolations, such as misrepresentation of soources, etc. Quite a few bad apples have been banned, and without it, the situation would be even worse. And (2), don't forget the deterrent effect, which is real but difficult to estimate. So I think AE is a net positive, it's just inefficient and insufficient. Maybe what Gatoclass was proposing would be better, but I do not know what came out of it. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 04:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    When? I think I know what you are referring to, but that inst really a fair case. The one Im thinking about, where a user straight up lied about what a source said, putting in the opposite of what the source said, nothing happened. Nothing. Oh, and in that same complaint, there was another edit where a user put an incontestable error of fact in an "encyclopedia" article, still nothing happened. This place is not equipped to handle the actual problems. nableezy - 04:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    You are possibly right. - BorisG (talk) 05:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sanctioning him for his comments at ANI would be a mistake, in my opinion. They were robust. That's all. If you sanction him for these, under your interpretation of our civility norms, you'll be assuming a level of personal wisdom and insight into those norms that no one else has the audacity at present to assume. If he'd made those comments on an article talk page (I believe article talk pages to be sacrosanct) perhaps I'd be more sympathetic. Civility, sadly, is still a work in progress here. Please realise that and, for the time being, while the community is actively, in many venues, still nutting out where we stand, err on the side of caution. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:47, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I tend to agree with Anthonyhcole, especially if BU agrees to abide by civility policies in the future. It is worrying that he doesn't though. - BorisG (talk) 04:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    That would be requiring him to abide by a policy that none of us understands at the moment. Provided he's not disrupting articles and their talk pages, please leave him alone. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nableezy, I think you're dead on up above. About everything you say, but about this in particular: "The collegial environment, thats what counts." And as our colleague, Demiurge1000, in a deep, deep observation, was kind enough to point out explicitly, we don't count as colleagues of theirs. It's their collegial atmosphere they're concerned with. And we can all get picked off one by one and walk away muttering Eppur si muove.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Cailil, just to clarify, are you saying Dan has been edit-warring? I haven't seen evidence of it in this thread. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Result concerning Bali ultimate

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • Right, this is a lovely minefield for us to dance through. But frankly Bali Ultimate's remarks show him taking his battlefield mentality from one subject area to ANi. That does violate the sanctions. Elen already clarified for him that his remarks were not acceptable and his repetition of them elsewhere does not take them beyond the RfAr's remit - to my mind it makes the matter worse.
      The diff above (accusing others of being propagandists)[8], alone is unacceptable and this is actionable under normal rules. But more to the point it shows prolonged and escalating inappropriate conduct which is not conducive to a collaborative environment (thus a direct violation of the ruling).
      In terms of how far we take this I'd like to see some input from other sysops but currently I see a corrective measure of some sort being necessary to tone Bali Ultimate's actions down--Cailil talk 17:29, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree with Cailil that this does fall under ARBPIA. Taking nastiness to a different page is not a way to evade arbitration remedies, and ArbCom recently made clear that they do consider topic bans to cover portions of any page that discuss the topic, even if that is not the primary topic of that particular page. It would seem to logically follow that the same applies to topical restrictions. Given that Bali ultimate has been made aware by two different uninvolved admins that this behavior is unacceptable and sanctionable (and those were hardly his first run-ins with civility problems), and has treated those with dismissiveness and additional rudeness, I don't think yet another stern warning is going to help matters. I would propose a minimum of a six-month topic ban from all material covered by ARBPIA, broadly construed, but at this point the fact that repeated warnings (and blocks) have gone unheeded is verging on calling for an indefinite one. As to the above discussion: One "qualification" for editing in a contentious area is the ability to deal reasonably and civilly with those one disagrees with. Situations in these areas can escalate quickly and badly, and that's why the restrictions were put in place to begin with. Editors who fan the flames in such areas can and will be removed from them. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Unless there's any objection from my colleagues, will close this with a six-month topic ban. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:51, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Since my effort to negotiate at User talk:Bali ultimate#WP:AE still open was not successful, I'm now supporting a six-month topic ban. EdJohnston (talk) 19:57, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree that the edits at issue are personal attacks, and as such clearly violations of our "expected standards of behavior" as described in the discretionary sanctions authorization. They are also covered by the WP:ARBPIA discretionary sanctions because they relate to articles in the area of conflict outlined in that decision. Judging by his statement here and the discussion linked to by EdJohnston above, Bali ultimate's defense can be summarized as "but I was correct in describing others as ignorants, propagandists etc." This is wrong because personal attacks are not under any circumstances justified or excusable. If we disagree with others, we can and must say so politely - focusing on the content, not on the other editor. Together with a relatively recent 1-week-block for personal attacks in the same topic area, this attitude of Bali ultimate's indicates that if unchecked he is likely to continue making personal attacks on those he disagrees with. A sanction is therefore necessary. Because the personal attacks have so far occurred only in the ARBPIA topic area, a topic ban from that subject matter is an initially appropriate sanction. Six months are rather long, I think, but I agree with this sanction with the understanding that we would be open to granting an appeal in a month or two, if the appeal reflects a genuine understanding that personal attacks are always unacceptable, and contains credible assurances that they won't reoccur. – As concerns the objections in the discussion above that AE admins only bother with formalities such as civility, rather than with the alleged underlying problems in the topic area: Well, we can only look at the cases we're presented with. If there is persistent and problematic (clearly non-neutral, source-falsifying, etc.) content editing on the part of any editor, that can be examined and possibly sanctioned in the context of separate AE requests. If there is adequate evidence in the form of well-explained diffs, of course.  Sandstein  00:21, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agree with Sandstein - I'd be on board with this as long as it may be appealed after 6-8 weeks. I'll echo Sandstein that if systematic misuse of sources is/was occurring it can and should be brought here as long as it is evidenced fully & properly. However it should be noted that even in that context misbehaviour such as editwarring or incivility is not excusable--Cailil talk 12:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      @-Anthonyhcole - no I'm not. I'm merely stating that any 2 wrongs don't make a right--Cailil talk 13:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

    Per the above discussion, I'm closing this request with the following sanction under the authority of WP:ARBPIA#Standard discretionary sanctions: Bali ultimate is topic-banned, as outlined in WP:TBAN, for six months from the area of conflict as defined in WP:ARBPIA#Area of conflict, that is, everything related to the Arab-Israeli conflict (including the Palestinian-Israeli conflict).  Sandstein  11:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)  Sandstein  11:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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