Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. Not to be confused with WP:DNR.

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Nivkh alphabets	In Progress	Modun (t)	22 days, 23 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 4 hours	Kwamikagami (t)	19 hours
Wudu	In Progress	Nasserb786 (t)	14 days, 8 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 14 hours	Nasserb786 (t)	2 days, 9 hours
Repressed memory	Closed	NpsychC (t)	6 days, 22 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 5 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 5 hours
Thunderball	Resolved	Moneyofpropre (t)	4 days, 12 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 21 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 21 hours
Queen Camilla	Closed	SKINNYSODAQUEEN (t)	4 days, 6 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 2 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 2 hours
15.ai	In Progress	Ltbdl (t)	4 days, 4 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	21 hours	Cooldudeseven7 (t)	9 hours
Hypnosis	New	Skalidrisalba (t)	3 days, 2 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 5 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 5 hours
Talk:Karima Gouit	Closed	TahaKahi (t)	1 days, 7 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	15 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	15 hours
Asian fetish	Closed	ShinyAlbatross (t)	1 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	21 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	21 hours
Algeria	New	Monsieur Patillo (t)	6 hours	None	n/a	TahaKahi (t)	4 hours
2024 Bangladesh anti-Hindu violence	Closed	AmitKumarDatta180 (t)	3 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 19:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Talk:Joint Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action#Legal_aspects_of_Iran.E2.80.99s_threat_of_genocide_-_is_it_a_random_fringe.3F

– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

Filed by Dontmakemetypepasswordagain on 04:15, 13 April 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action#Legal aspects of Iran.E2.80.99s threat of genocide - is it a random fringe.3F (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Dontmakemetypepasswordagain (talk · contribs)
• Yagasi (talk · contribs)
• NPguy (talk · contribs)
• Neutrality (talk · contribs)
• Vesuvius_Dogg (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

1st Talk link2nd Talk link --- Although I only recently became involved, there has been a dispute since about September 2015 at the Iran nuclear deal article. Inclusion was attempted of some material regarding significant criticisms by very prominent legal figures regarding the propriety of allowing privileges and sanctions relief without Iran having to cease threatening Israel. See this NPOV noticeboard post for a complete explanation of the sourcing and proposed text. It all seems pretty reasonable if you ask me, but Inclusion of any of this material was relentlessly opposed and reverted on the claimed basis that it was a "FRINGE" view, which is frankly preposterous given any close inspection of the WP:FRINGE policy. The behavior continued after I rewrote and restored some of the material. However, I think those insisting on exclusion were not forthcoming in seriously discussing any policy basis for removing the material. One user actually purported to assess the quality of the legal view itself based on his own knowledge, which I think is also preposterous. Another user appeared to reluctantly support some kind of inclusion but made a dubious argument that since two of the scholars were already cited for a separate criticism it would be undue to cite them again, but in any event he repeatedly reverted too. Both made the puzzling claim that the criticism of the nuclear agreement was not relevant to it. Myself and the other user supporting inclusion are in disbelief, I think, that such a bald violation of policy is being claimed as an enforceable consensus.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I posted to the NPOV noticeboard; see link above. I did not notify the others because my goal was to gain outside opinion, not continue the debate in another place. Two users responded without any reference to policy, with one attacking my motives—these responses explain my decision to seek mediated discussion rather than opening an RFC—but there was in my opinion one good substantive response, from administrator Masem.

How do you think we can help?

Mediate a discussion where all are expected to set forth clearly stated policy justifications for a desired outcome. Disfavor simple and conclusory use of "fringe" as an adjective to describe a claimed minority viewpoint, without reference to the policy language and examples. Act as referee. I think there is, as yet, no serious argument that well-sourced opinions in the relevant field by experts of this stature come within a country mile of the WP:FRINGE prohibition.

Summary of dispute by Yagasi

The proposed edits are based on opinion of prominent legal experts. To be a fringe theory, the edits must challenge a mainstream idea broadly supported by legal scholarship in reliable sources. No such scholarship sources were mentioned by proponents of the fringe claim and they have not affirmed the existence of a mainstream idea supported by scholarship. This violates WP:FRINGE.

Furthermore, the proponents of the fringe claim have presented viewpoints of some Wikipedia editors as a mainstream idea by giving these viewpoints undue weight and calling the legal experts "minority". This violates WP:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight that plainly requires: "in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public."

Moreover, the proponents of the fringe (marginal view) claim have presented their viewpoints as editor consensus. This misrepresentation violates WP:CONSENSUS and WP:NPOV. Wikipedians must keep in mind that "NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia... It is also one of Wikipedia's three core content policies... This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus." Yagasi (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

The fringe claim was supported by a subsidiary argument based on a Wikipedia editor legal interpretation of the Convention: "The convention is focused on actions of persons and enacting criminal penalties for such actions. I could find no obligation to prevent threats of genocide..." This clearly violates the WP:NOR policy which cannot be overruled by editor consensus. Moreover, this argument is fallacious and cannot be accepted. Under Article I of the Convention "The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish". In its judgment in the Bosnian Genocide case the International Court of Justice decided: "The ordinary meaning of the word “undertake” is to give a formal promise, to bind or engage oneself, to give a pledge or promise, to agree, to accept an obligation." Yagasi (talk) 22:03, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by NPguy

The first and largest problem with the cited claims about the genocide convention is that they appear to be without legal merit. There are assertions about what the Genocide Convention requires and prohibits that lack support in the actual text of the Convention. The convention is focused on actions of persons and enacting criminal penalties for such actions. I could find no obligation to prevent threats of genocide, though incitement to genocide is punishable. So each of the legal claims is an extrapolation that departs significantly from the actual obligations in the convention. Since none of the sources appears to make an actual legal argument (i.e. an argument based on specific provisions of the Convention) it seems appropriate to treat them as fringe political views rather than serious legal claims.

The second difficulty is the argument that Iran has acted in a way that triggers the convention by allegedly threatening genocide against Israel. Most analyses indicate that statements by Iranian officials that Israel should not exist are rhetorical and political arguments, not actual threats. But there are serious sources who treat these as serious threats, so it seems appropriate to recognize this view.

But the argument that this supposed threat of genocide requires other states to refrain from any agreement with Iran unless Iran abandons its supposedly genocidal threats is extraordinarily broad. As far as I can tell, it is completely unsupported by any theory of domestic or international law. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which the proponents have not provided. NPguy (talk) 00:18, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Neutrality

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Vesuvius_Dogg

I agree with NPGuy's explanation and reasoning. I've said that while I prefer the material be deleted, if it is to be included, it should not be written so as to misrepresent the Genocide Convention and its requirements. Even Beres concedes that "the language of the Genocide Convention does not explicitly require any such precise enforcement" regarding genocidal statements or incitement. I've read the treaty and various op eds (or should we call them "motions"?) and find them highly novel from a legal point of view. Also, it should be noted Dershowitz's offhand comment was apparently made to NewsmaxTV and quoted on that non-RS site, making it problematic to give it weight on Wkipedia given that he has not published nor made this argument elsewhere, to my knowledge.

For what it's worth, I don't recall making more than a single edit on this issue, though I did comment on the Talk page. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 11:27, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Joint Comprehensive_Plan_of_Action#Legal_aspects_of_Iran.E2.80.99s_threat_of_genocide_-_is_it_a_random_fringe.3F discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been extended discussion on the talk page. The listed editors have been notified of the filing. One editor, User:Joshua Isaac, has commented at the talk page but has not been invited to the discussion, and should be notified. Waiting for statements from other editors, since participation is voluntary although encouraged. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I did not originally notify User:Joshua_Issac because he did not at any point remove, object to, discuss, or otherwise address the material regarding complaints about Iran's threats against Israel. I have gone ahead and notified him, but if he chooses not to participate, I strongly urge that this should not be taken as a reason to close the mediation—because IMO he was never involved with this dispute in the first place.

On an unrelated note, I gather that the protocol for discussion going forward is for us not to respond to each other directly, but instead wait for the next "round" of statements once everyone has either posted a summary or declined to participate? Dontmakemetypepasswordagain (talk) 14:51, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, first all the summaries and then responses. Yagasi (talk) 16:02, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Volunteer question - Does this case have a moderator? If so, who? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:01, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Volunteer comment – It looks like you opened it. Who volunteered to take it then? KSFT^C 20:03, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer moderator

I see no evidence that this case has a moderator. If so, will the moderator please so state? If not, I will be the moderator. Here are the ground rules. Be civil and concise. Civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia and especially in dispute resolution. Concise posts are more informative than overly long ones. Comment on content, not contributors. I expect every participant to check on the status of this case at least every 48 hours and to answer questions within 48 hours. As noted, please do not engage in threaded discussion with other editors. Address your comments to the community or the moderator (there isn't any real difference). Do not edit the article while discussion is in progress. Discussion at the article talk page may be ignored by accident. Will each participant please summarize, in one paragraph, what the issue is about the article and how it either should be changed or how it should be left as is? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

First statements by editors

I'll be brief. My view is that the proposed text from my earlier noticeboard post should be added to the article and then not be reverted out by the editors here. The question is whether to exclude the prose above, along with the underlying views and sources reflected. A few specific policy arguments have been raised, but on a more general level, it is argued that a WP editor is empowered to force an exclusion of expert commentary based on the editor's own belief as to whether the source is right. That is, if a particular user believes an influential figure's view is wrong, can he forcibly prevent other users from reflecting it in a centrally related article—thereby allowing the first editor's unpublished personal legal theories and political preferences to override both important source material and the activity of other editors? Alternatively, can the view be excluded if it is claimed to be a minority view? Isn't this all specifically forbidden by each and every sentence that appears in the first paragraph of WP:V? Dontmakemetypepasswordagain (talk) 13:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Before continuing the content disputes, I would like to know: 1. Who are the present participants? 2. What happens if at least one of them does not accept your mediation? 3. What happens if one of them does not submit his statements after 48 hours? Yagasi (talk) 08:44, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator

First, I will answer the questions of User:Yagasi. The participants are any editors who have submitted statements or otherwise agreed to take part in mediation. If at least one of them does not accept mediation, I will make a decision whether it will be useful to continue mediation with less than all of the editors, or whether I will close the case, and will probably recommend an RFC in that case. If an editor does not submit a statement within 48 hours, but discussion is still continuing by other editors, the lateness will not be noted and discussion will continue. If discussion stalls for 48 hours, with no comments, the case will be closed.

One editor, DMTPWA, has submitted a statement that I do not find helpful, because it doesn't identify what text they think should be included or excluded. It is also argumentative in using very non-neutral words such as "forcibly prevent" and "force an exclusion". Maybe that is what the other editors are doing, but we need to talk about article content, not contributors.

Once again, be concise in stating what article content should be included or excluded. Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:12, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Second statements by editors

My statement is as follows. Wikipedia's declared fundamental principles include: being an encyclopedia written from a neutral point of view and having no firm rules. It does have policies and guidelines that are in effect and must be respected, but these may be changed at some time in the future. As I summarized above, some of effective policies and guidelines were violated when the genocide related issue was repeatedly removed, first under a claim of fringe theory, then under a claim of editor consensus on the fringe. The most concerning was the third revert when the so called "consensus" was established without even mentioning a single reliable source. If a group of editors is eligible to establish such a kind of consensus and remove text based on opinion of prominent legal experts, then this must be properly disclosed to the community and to the public. However WP:RS requires articles to be based "on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority view". In conclusion, I would like to state that the text of the third revert or the text proposed by the filing participant should be included in the subsection (or section) "Continued criticism" of the article. Copies of both texts will be added to the mediation. Yagasi (talk) 14:16, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator

I asked the editors to provide a concise statement as to what text should be included or excluded. The above statement, which is only about the policies and not about the specific text, is too concise on the point of the text (containing nothing about the text) (as well as being argumentative). Will each editor please state concisely, in one paragraph, what they want included or excluded? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:12, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Third statements by editors

Your statements have been puzzling, because (1) your First Statement by Volunteer Moderator asked for a summary of how the article should be changed, not a detailed explanation with sourcing and proposed text, which we of course could not present in one paragraph; (2) the proposed text was quite conspicuously and obviously linked in both my initial request for moderation and my First Statement, above; (3) the proposed text is more than one paragraph, yet you are asking us to both include the proposed text and argue "concisely" for its inclusion in a single paragraph. Do participants who are arguing for addition of text perhaps get an extra paragraph to post the proposed text? If not, why is linking to the proposed text not acceptable? Also, doesn't the side that insists on exclusion have to say something, or is it solely our burden to jump through hoops? Finally, I did not mention any editors or even specific edits, but rather the policy questions at issue, and I don't see how to discuss this without mentioning those policy questions. Ok, now here is the proposed text crammed into one "paragraph".Proposed text 1: In a Wall Street Journal opinion piece, attorneys David B. Rivkin Jr. and Lee A. Casey argued that while the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide imposed an "obligation on all convention parties to prevent genocide and threats of genocide," Iran remained publicly committed to Israel's elimination.Proposed text 2:In September 2015, emeritus professor of international law Louis René Beres argued that Obama's refusal to demand Iran abandon its genocidal incitement and threats, before being permitted to nuclearize under the deal, constituted a serious violation of U.S. treaty obligations under the 1948 Genocide Convention, and, thereby, also of U.S. law due to the priority given to international treaties under the Supremacy Clause and related case law. Beres also argued that the deal might encourage Iran to quit the Non-Proliferation Treaty entirely, relying on the new deal as permission to nuclearize while abandoning all commitments under the NPT.Proposed text 3: Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz argued in an interview that the convention against genocide prohibits aiding genocide, and that by giving money to Iran under the deal, the U.S. was "aiding genocide. We're accessories to terrorism." Dontmakemetypepasswordagain (talk) 23:19, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

References

I'd like to try again to get another editor Neutrality involved in this discussion. That editor earned an editor's barnstar for edits to the page in question and was very active on the issue in dispute, but has not responded yet on this page.

There's one point above that I did not address in my initial comments. That is the claim by Beres that Iran might withdraw from the NPT and rely on the JCPOA as permission to nuclearize. First, this is not a legal opinion and therefore cannot be considered a claim by a subject matter expert. Second, it overlooks the fact that the JCPOA is actually premised on Iran's continued adherence to the NPT. Abandoning one in favor of the other is not an option. NPguy (talk) 01:40, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Former Closing Statement by Former Moderator

I made this statement, and am now asked to allow the case to be re-opened. Here was my closing statement. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:46, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I am having to close this case as failed. After asking three times for concise statements of how the article should be changed or left alone, I have received, first, a lengthy statement of Wikipedia policies, second, a lengthy statement of Wikipedia policies, third, a wall of text. Even if it is true that the other editors are trying to suppress the presentation of a minority viewpoint by misuse of the fringe policy, the filing party isn't presenting a concise summary that permits mediation. At this point, I would recommend that the approach that is most likely to resolve this dispute would be a Request for Comments. However, I would strongly advise all parties that the wording of the RFC should be neutral and concise. If the RFC is either non-neutral (e.g., argumentative) or overly lengthy, it will not establish consensus and will just allow continued quarreling. So a neutral concisely worded RFC is the most likely way to resolve this issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:46, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

I am now marking this case available for another moderator. If a moderator does not accept this case at this noticeboard, the participants may request formal mediation. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:46, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

University of_Northern_New_Jersey

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Filed by Mdupont on 02:09, 14 April 2016 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute University of Northern New Jersey (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Mdupont (talk · contribs) Neutrality (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The Commission_on_English_Language_Program_Accreditation has been busy whitewashing their website to try and hide the fact that they accredited the fake university. I caught them with multiple archives of the website after I noticed they removed the main listing. I have provided screenshots of the google cache, prints and downloads of the original page and multiple archives from different web tools of the old content. Neutrality still does not want to admit this as evidence. Have you tried to resolve this previously? none How do you think we can help? I would like to know how I can reference a web snapshot as proof of whitewashing. There must be some precedent on this. Summary of dispute by Neutrality Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. University of_Northern_New_Jersey discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.  Volunteer note: This dispute has not been discussed thoroughly yet; only evidence of discussion is on the filing party's talk page. In addition, this dispute is relatively simple and seems to be resolvable by candid non-mediated discussion and maybe a third opinion, so there is likely no need for DRN. File again if a) discussion fails to resolve the dispute and b) extensive discussion has taken place. Esquivalience t 02:52, 14 April 2016 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Template:Anarchism sidebar

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by 24.197.253.43 on 03:20, 14 April 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Template:Anarchism sidebar (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Knight of BAAWA (talk · contribs)
• Interrexconsul (talk · contribs)
• Eduen (talk · contribs)
• N-HH (talk · contribs)
• FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk · contribs)
• Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I am having an edit skirmish with a user who insists that the page Anarcho-capitalism belongs in the "Schools of thought" category of the Anarchism sidebar; I do not. This is a long-running dispute which needs to be resolved. I believe it violates considerations of undue weight, as stated in my comments on the Talk page. It seems clear to me that the person who is arguing for its continued inclusion is doing so for purely ideological reasons (and I won't deny having the opposite ideological stance), and s/he has repeatedly refused or failed to provide sufficiently strong arguments as well as intentionally misrepresenting my arguments.

What should be the next step for a conclusive resolution as to whether or not this topic belongs on this sidebar?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have sought consensus on the Talk page.

How do you think we can help?

We need a final resolution as to whether or not Anarcho-capitalism belongs in the "schools of thought" section of the Anarchism sidebar. Note that the ideological war between the yea and nay sides extends far beyond Wikipedia.

I would like to see "Capitalism" (and possibly several other scarcely-relevant topics, particularly "Nationalism") removed from the "Schools of thought" section. They are mentioned in other places and, as fringe ideologies, that seems more like where they belong.

Summary of dispute by Knight of BAAWA

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

This edit-war against anarchocapitalism has been ongoing for at least a decade. In that time, it has been decided on the anarchism talk page and the template talk page time and again to be inclusive in spite of the feelings of those who do not like capitalism. And this time is more of the same, which is just hatred. In fact, 24.197.253.43 called the inclusion of anarchocapitalism on the template page "vandalism". Should you think I am misquoting him, I assure you that I am not. To wit: "I do not apologize for the reversion war with User:Knight of BAAWA as I consider the inclusion of "Anarcho-capitalism" to be vandalism. S/he clearly has an ideological axe to grind and their claims of neutrality are laughable." And we have the usual from Eduen with scarce-quotes, and other sundry who are just lumping in with hate instead of trying to make the template better.

This is simply yet another bad-faith edit on the part of those who have an ideological axe to grind against anarchocapitalism. Period. Nothing more. Wikipedia is supposed to be inclusive and objective, yet time and again those with an ideological axe to grind against anarchocapitalism refuse to accept that, preferring instead to exclude due to their own biases. Now I'm not saying that I'm not biased: I am. However, I hold to the inclusive idea of Wikipedia. Otherwise, for instance, on the christianity page there'd be edit wars with the protestants vs the catholics or jws or some other sect trying to remove mention of one or the other. You can see where this leads: chaos for Wikipedia. Far better to be inclusive.

Further, it seems those who do not like anarchocapitalism do not understand what "fringe" means on Wikipedia. They think "fringe" means "minority position", when it means something much different. Quoting from "What Fringe is Not", we find "WP:FRINGE has nothing to do with politics or opinions. (For example, a small political party may be a fringe party, but it is not appropriate to cite FRINGE when discussing such parties.) Politics and opinions may be on 'the fringe' of public perception, but the matter of our FRINGE guideline deals directly with what can be proven or demonstrated using the scientific method by academics, scholars, and scientists. Political opinions about recent history, future predictions, social opinion, and popular culture cannot be fringe because the basis of the opinion is not scientific or academic." and "WP:FRINGE is most often abused in political and social articles where better policies such as WP:NPOV or WP:UNDUE are appropriate. Citing WP:FRINGE in discussions and edit summaries is often done by POV pushers in an attempt to demonize viewpoints which contradict their own."

We can see that fringe is being attempted, and was abused already by Iterrexconsul, whereupon I had to quote him the entirety of What Fringe Is Not on his talk page to get him to understand.

So let us embrace inclusivity and objectivity. I do hope the other editors will agree that this is a good thing. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Interrexconsul

The editor Knight of BAAWA has continuously fought for the inclusion of "Anarcho-Capitalism" on the template for the side bar for Anarchism, specifically under the "Schools of Thought" section. However, the vast preponderance of scholars contend that, despite the name, anarcho-capitalism is not a form of anarchism. The greatest objections most scholars have to it being considered anarchism is the fact that it not only condones, but encourages the concept of private property, which one of anarchism's central tenets is to oppose. The key issue at hand is that of all groups of people, there is only one informed group that would define anarcho-capitalism as an anarchist school of thought, that is its own adherents (which Knight of BAAWA has clearly show he/she is one, frequently calling all who disagree "haters"). Every other reputable source that has more than a passing knowledge of anarchism, both adherents and independent scholars, instead label it as being a type of libertarianism. I would contend that the relationship between Anarcho-Capitalism and Anarchism is the same as that of National Socialism and Socialism. While they both share perhaps a vague concept of the role of government (Ancaps and anarchists saying none, National Socialists and Socialists saying centralized), the only other similarity is in the name, and in fact once examined at any depth they are revealed to be in fact very very different indeed. So, I would propose that Anarcho-Capitalism not be included as a school of thought of anarchism. However, I do believe the debate as to its nature is relevant and can be included in the sidebar under “issues”. Interrexconsul (talk) 04:42, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Eduen

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Basically most of the general sources on anarchism do not include this strange combination of words called "anarcho-capitalism" as a form of anarchism and as a matter of fact don´t even mention it. The few works that mention it tend to say that it is a part of right wing politics and radical economic liberalism and, as such, contrary to one of the main characteristics of anarchism which has always been and continues to be, anti-capitalism. Even though we have different editors who remove that thing from this template, as can be seen by anyone in the page of edits of the talk section, user Knight of BAAWA keeps bringing it back and it is a sort of personal crusade of his to do this. This happens even though everyone tells him more or less the same thing. Mainly that anarcho-capitalism is not included in general sources as part of anarchism and that it is such a minoritarian position historically and geographically that it does not deserve inclusion within "anarchists schools of thought" even thogh that does not mean that the wikipedia article "anarchocapitalism" should be deleted. I don´t think it should be deleted since it does have a significant literature but mainly one located very clearly within US economic liberal and right wing problematics and agendas. As such political agendas historically considered by anarchism as enemies to fight againts even to the point of resorting to high levels of violence as this very anti-capitalist large anarchist political action shows.--Eduen (talk) 06:54, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by N-HH

Per Eduen and Interrexconsul. There's a clear dispute about classifying Anarcho-capitalism (and similarly National Anarchism) as a form of anarchism in authoritative sources, and even among anarcho-capitalist writers themselves, and hence WP should not classify it that way definitively, while nonetheless acknowledging the connection. It's quite a simple problem in that respect, but the debate is being made additionally difficult by one editor repeatedly insisting it has to be simply and definitively classified that way regardless, merely on their say-so, and constantly berating anyone who questions that on an objective basis as a "hater". Even compromise proposals are simply vetoed and any changes edit-warred out. N-HH talk/edits 07:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by FreeKnowledgeCreator

I have nothing to say, except that my involvement in this issue has been minimal, and that I reserve the right to have little to nothing to do with it in future. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 09:10, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

To clarify, while I stand by the comments I have made on this issue in the past, I do not see myself participating any further in the dispute. I do not wish to be part of the dispute resolution process. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 01:38, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Malik Shabazz

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I'd like to ask, "Who are these people?" With the exception of Eduen and Knight of BAAWA, each of whom is a long-term editor of this template, neither the filer nor any of the other "users involved" ever edited the template or its talk page before this week. So maybe somebody ought to ask what's really going on here. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:11, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

With all due respect, Esquivalience, I don't know how you concluded I've "shown apathy regarding this dispute." Unlike the johnny-come-latelies who showed up this week to try to tear down this template, I've been editing it and protecting it from vandals since 2013. I think if the template can include black anarchism ("a loose term sometimes (and only recently) applied in the United States to group together a number of people of African descent (mainly from a Black Panther Party background) who identify with anarchism") and infoanarchism ("coined in a TIME Magazine article called 'The Infoanarchist' in July 2000") as anarchist "schools of thought", it ought to include anarchocapitalism as well. Nothing apathetic about my edit history at the template or anything I've written about it. If this charade is going to proceed, I'd like to continue to be part of it. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:52, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I apologize for my semi-blind inference (the wording of your initial comment seemed like you did not want to participate further), but now all parties have made statements and have no objections to dispute resolution (except FreeKnowledgeCreator, who has explicitly stated that he does not want to participate), so it may commence. Esquivalience ^t 02:57, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Personally i do not have any problem with taking out inforanarchism also from "schools of thought". Black anarchism has more of a line of wirtten work, intelectuals engaged with it and actual practice. On the other hand "infoanarchism" seems to me is a vague concept with few theoretical development. It could very well only be included in "concepts"--Eduen (talk) 20:02, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

This user for one is not a "johnny come lately" thanks, but has edited on politics topics for around nine years. I started an RFC a while back on this very issue, on the Anarcho-capitalism page itself (which concluded broadly in favour of our position). If the arguments against removal are simply ad hom attacks like that and insinuations about motive, plus "we can't remove this from the schools of thought, as otherwise we might have to remove other things too", it's all a bit weak. Anarcho-capitalism needs to be considered on its own merits. And if others currently included should also not be there, per the authoritative literature on anarchism, they should indeed come out too. Otherwise we are just saying WP should keep misleading information otherwise we'd have to look at removing even more, which is an odd way to go about creating an encyclopedia. N-HH talk/edits 09:25, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Template:Anarchism sidebar discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

•  Volunteer note: I will be opening this case for moderated discussion once and if all the parties show willingness to participate. Participation is encouraged. Calm, civil discourse, without personal attacks, is required. All parties are urged to refrain from edit warring or performing any editing of the sidebar while it is still under this dispute. Esquivalience ^t 11:38, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
•  Volunteer note: FreeKnowledgeCreator's participation in this dispute was minimal, so I do not believe that he should be listed as a party. Esquivalience ^t 20:11, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
•  Volunteer note: In addition, Malik Shabazz has only contributed to the discussion a few times, and thus should not have been listed as a party unless they wish to participate further in discussion. He/she has also shown apathy regarding this dispute.

It appears that all of the involved parties have made statements. But some roll call first: FreeKnowledgeCreator and Malik Shabazz (who appear to have only made a few comments), do you two wish to participate in dispute resolution, discuss further on the talk page, or exit the dispute altogether? Esquivalience ^t 01:33, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Y Commencing: FreeKnowledgeCreator has withdrawn from the dispute altogether, and Malik Shabazz has shown an explicit willingness to continue participation, so dispute resolution may commence. I will post an opening statement in no more than 24 hours once I have looked into this issue in more detail and its surrounding context. Esquivalience ^t 03:01, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer

I have read the discussion and surrounding context. It appears that this dispute and discussion boils down to whether placing anarcho-capitalism as a school of thought in the infobox represents due weight or undue weight and whether anarcho-capitalism is an anarchic viewpoint at all, according to the general scholarship.

I believe that a closer examination at the outside viewpoints relating to these issues may help in formulating a solution. Can the parties present specific, prominent sources which either discuss or convey a viewpoint on anarcho-capitalism and its relation to anarchism? Esquivalience ^t 01:44, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Not sure where you want this, and you may have picked up on these already, but as a starter this talk page edit of mine has a couple. There's a specific section on the main Anarcho-capitalism page on the relationship (indeed there's a whole separate page too, although I am not familiar with it and I suspect it's probably a bit OTT and hence AFD-able). Obviously one should treat the section as warily as any other WP content in terms of accuracy/balance, but there are links to outside sources there specifically addressing the point. N-HH talk/edits 09:34, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Regarding due weight, my argument is that "Anarcho-capitalism" is an unorthodox new idea with no historical presence to speak of. In contrast, several Anarchist tendencies such as Anarcho-Syndicalism have had a relatively enormous presence in history and the real world over the course of the past 150 years and through the present day, from the First International to the Russian and Spanish Civil Wars to the recent Occupy movement. Further, Anarchist philosophers such as Noam Chomsky (who is, as perhaps the top expert of Anarchist theory in the world today, of the opinion that "Anarcho-capitalism" is not a form of Anarchism) and Emma Goldman are nearly household names and are widely referenced outside of specifically Anarchist circles. In contrast, "Anarcho-capitalism" has had no historical presence beyond theory and today exists almost entirely on the Internet, with no prominent adherents who are referenced outside this topic. To feature it so prominently would be comparable to featuring an extremely obscure branch of Christianity such as Branch Davidianism at the top of the Christianity sidebar, or String Theory on the Quantum Mechanics sidebar. Because of its lack of real-world presence, and its disagreement with fundamental principles shared by Anarchists such as opposition to private property in the capitalist sense (note that Mutualism is somewhere between tolerated and accepted, due to its history and compatibility with Anarchist concepts of property), I argue that "Anarcho-capitalism" is more appropriately placed in the "Issues" section, where it already can be found. For similar reasons, I also think that the Naturist, Vegan, Black, Existentialist, and Infoanarchist entries are not worthy of a place in the "Schools of Thought" section, although these have received relatively little discussion. 24.197.253.43 (talk) 20:08, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Also regarding due weight, given the fact that it is mentioned in sources outside of anarchocapitalism itself (such as the Blackwell Dictionary of Modern Social Thought) of the anarchism and anarchocapitalism pages as a school of anarchism, it belongs in the schools. Otherwise, we find once again that the catholics would try to edit out the protestants and vice-versa for the christianity article or template. Simply because something is not as old as other schools does not make it any less of a school. Otherwise, jws, mormons, and charismatics (the last having only been around since 1967!) shouldn't even be in the denominations category for the christianity template. The upshot is that this resolution will have consequences FAR beyond this one template. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 21:43, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Again, you are misrepresenting what I'm saying. I'm not arguing legitimacy or fact, but notability and weight. By any measure, "Anarcho-capitalism" is a speck compared to mainstream Anarchist thought, history, and activity. 24.197.253.43 (talk) 23:47, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

So too then is the charismatic denomination for christianity. Internecine conflicts never end well. And I correctly represented what you are saying. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 22:51, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

•  Volunteer note: Pinging Eduen, Malik Shabazz, and Interrexconsul to see if they have any more comments regarding this issue (aside from their summary of dispute). Esquivalience ^t 00:45, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't believe I have any more to add to this that hasn't already been said in one way or another. I continue to believe that Anarcho-Capitalism is not in fact a "school of thought" of Anarchism, and that it shouldn't be included as such in the sidebar, yet I do believe that it, and the controversy surrounding it may be of interest to someone reading about anarchism, thus I believe it should be under the "issues" section. Interrexconsul (talk) 01:35, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I think i have stated my main points already regarding "anarchocapitalism". I see it alongside some reliable sources, as belonging to right wing politics and economic liberalism/neoliberalism. It is mainly a radical, perhaps extreme, form of neoliberalism which only has in common with anarchism its anti-statism. So called anarchocapitalists exist in real life politics mostly just in the US besides conservatives and neoliberal politicans and activists and sometimes it is hard to see if they do anything at all besides writing books on economics and commenting things on internet forums. Yet anarchism also has anti-parlamentarism in common with fascism, anti-capitalism in common with maoism, and "progressive values" in common with social democracy. Nevertheless we can clearly say that anarchism retains its specific character besides all of those positions with which it might have one superficial point in common yet too many differences to as to constitute something very different. This is no different with the particular ideologies of economic liberalism and neoliberalism, or as these as known in the US "Libertarianism".--Eduen (talk) 05:12, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Thus we see the hate, viz. the scarce-quotes and the use of "so called". Again: this is all because of some people who want to edit in bad faith. They desire not to improve, but to exclude and push their narrow POV which involves hatred of those who do not believe as they do. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 22:51, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I would like to note that throughout this entire process, before and during dispute resolution, Knight of BAAWA has persisted in assuming bad faith in anyone who disagrees with them. Interrexconsul (talk) 18:01, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I assume good faith until it's clearly shown otherwise, such as calling the inclusion of anarchocapitalism as "vandalism". Surely, you can't expect people to believe that such a person would edit in good faith! That stretches the bounds of believability! - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 23:58, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

• Non-moderating volunteer note - Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:05, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Battle of_Ia_Drang#ARVN_involvement (2)

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by 117.6.88.137 on 05:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Battle of Ia Drang#ARVN involvement (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved David J Johnson (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I think the ARVN should not be a belligerent while Tnguyen4321 doesn't Have you tried to resolve this previously? this request once How do you think we can help? remove South Vietnam from the box as a belligerent Summary of dispute by David J Johnson Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I have no further comments - apart from what I said several days ago. David J Johnson (talk) 16:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC) Talk:Battle of_Ia_Drang#ARVN_involvement (2) discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Mawlid#Consensus doesn't exist concerning falsehood

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Mawlidman on 14:54, 22 April 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Mawlid#Consensus doesn't exist concerning falsehood (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Mawlidman (talk · contribs)
• Saheehinfo (talk · contribs)
• MezzoMezzo (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is a dispute regarding which edit should be accepted for the article: this edit (mine) or this edit (opposing editor). I argue in favour of mine for 2 main reasons: 1) It has sub-sections because there are 2 distinct sections to the 'Permissibility' section: one for and one against. This gives the section greater clarity. 2) My edit simply quotes the opinion of the scholar Ibn Taymiyya, hence it is uncontroversial and fully self-explanatory. I argue against the other editor's version for 2 main reasons: 1) without sub-sections, the 'Permissibility' section looks very unwieldy. 2) in this version the opinion of the scholar Ibn Taymiyya is described as complex, even though plenty of other sources do not make mention of any such "complexity". This description is a matter of dispute, hence such controversy should be avoided--especially when my version easily offers a non-controversial solution.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried extensive discussion on the talk page, sought a third opinion (but was rejected because a 3rd editor was nominally involved).

How do you think we can help?

Just to give fair advice about which arguments have merit and to offer a respectable opinion that can lead to a resolution to this ongoing dispute.

Summary of dispute by Saheehinfo

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Mawlid#Consensus doesn't exist concerning falsehood discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate talk page discussion. The two listed parties, while the main parties to the discussion, are not the only parties. Other parties who have commented should be listed. All of the editors should be notified of this filing. This case is being left open to allow for addition of other parties and for proper notice to be provided. (I will not be moderating the discussion if this case is opened.) Robert McClenon (talk) 18:15, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Volunteer comment – I can open this case for moderated discussion once all of the involved editors are properly listed and notified. KSFT^C 21:45, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Volunteer comment – @Mawlidman: This is a reminder that all involved editors need to be notified on their talk pages before the case can be opened. It is your responsibility as the editor who filed the case to notify them. KSFT^C 01:47, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Volunteer comment – I am now opening this case for discussion. @Saheehinfo and MezzoMezzo: If you are willing to participate, reply here. KSFT^C 15:01, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Boyce Watkins

– New discussion.

Filed by 2600:1:C753:B0D2:7156:7A8:3C0E:4A5F on 14:27, 23 April 2016 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Boyce Watkins (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Stevietheman (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Editor believes that quotations from primary source materials from living people also need secondary source materials. I have posted a source with a video of Dr Boyce watkins making a statement directly related to the appropriate topic of the wikipedia section. The citation was appropriate, verifieable, and reliable. The editor seems to want to dominate the page in an attempt to exert some sort of control. He has fabricated his own rules and insisted that they must be followed Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have tried to explain the rules to stevietheman. I have also made edits that could have been perceived as problematic. How do you think we can help? I believe if primary citations from reliable and verifieable sources require secondary sources as well this rule needs to be made explicit. Otherwise a third party should find the best way to enter the quotation and explain as best as possible that Stevietheman is not entitled to create his own rules. Summary of dispute by Stevietheman This is a WP:BLP and therefore we have to be especially careful. The editor wanting to add a quote from a video is selectively pulling a quote they think has context but also appears to be an attempt to place the subject in an unflattering light, to paint the subject a particular way. They believe just because the subject said something in a primary source that it can be added, just because it relates to other content. The problem is that they are subjectively deciding the context of its inclusion. If what Watkins said here is so noteworthy, it would have been covered in secondary sources somewhere, like the other similar content was, showing its contextual relation. When did this quote from the subject's uploaded video become newsworthy? Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 15:00, 23 April 2016 (UTC) Re: "The editor seems to want to dominate the page in an attempt to exert some sort of control. He has fabricated his own rules and insisted that they must be followed." No such thing has occurred. I have referred to the policies/guidelines of this site in my disagreement with the inclusion of this material. But if you want to talk about exerting control, the IP editor wanting to decide the newsworthiness of something on their own is a problem, and also there's an issue where even in the middle of our discussing this, the IP editor kept reverting back to their version. The proper approach would be to rollback to the previous version and keep it there until we had reached some form of resolution. That and WP:BLP requirements are why I kept reverting back. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 15:06, 23 April 2016 (UTC) Talk:Boyce Watkins discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Houdini and_Doyle

– New discussion.

Filed by 86.160.202.23 on 11:44, 24 April 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Houdini and Doyle (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Kiraroshi1976 (talk · contribs)
• User: 86.160.202.23 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Some episodes of show have aired online, but not yet on terrestrial platforms. One user insists that information from said episodes should not be added to the page until the episode airs on terrestrial television, claiming the show was primarily created for same. The other user notes that (a) the program has widely aired and is available to millions of viewers, so there is no reason to reject the information, and (b) other programs that air online have their information added regardless of whether they have had terrestrial airings.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We've debated it back and forth, but seem to be at an impasse.

How do you think we can help?

I feel Kiraroshi1976 may be more willing to listen if he feels that other editors have a consensus that disagrees with his. And, while I doubt you'd convince me that I am wrong if the consensus goes against me, because I do feel I have the right of things (I wouldn't be debating it otherwise), I'd still recognise that there was no point continuing the debate and drop the matter.

Summary of dispute by Kiraroshi1976

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The episode has not aired on television. The article does not include online viewing. It only states Fox, ITV, and Global. It has not even aired on Fox or Global yet. I realize that there could be online versions of an episode, but that should be covered in the Broadcast section once the episode airs. There is no official online network for the series. If there was, I would not have an issue.- Kiraroshi1976 (talk) 04:46, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by User: 86.160.202.23

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Houdini and_Doyle discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page. However, the filing party has not notified the other editor. The filing party is required to notify the other editor. I strongly advise the filing party to create an account. It is difficult to engage in dispute resolution from an IP address, especially since IP addresses shift. I am neither accepting nor declining this case, but am waiting for notice to the other editor and for a statement by the other editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:40, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Which other editor? Kiraroroshi1976 is aware that I have opened a dispute - do I need to direct him/her to this specific page? I had assumed that the discussion would take place on the entry's talk page, which is why I not bothered to direct him here. However, assuming that you want him directed here, I will do so. As for engaging in a dispute resolution with an IP address, I don't see why that should be a problem. I have no desire whatsoever to create an account, and no need to do so in order to make a case. 86.160.202.23 (talk) 03:13, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

• Another volunteer note: I've given the required notice to Kiraroroshi1976. If s/he chooses to join in — participation in moderated content dispute resolution is not mandatory — and if a volunteer chooses to moderate the case, the discussion will take place here, not on the talk page. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 04:41, 25 April 2016 (UTC) (current DRN coordinator)

To respond to each of the points made above: "The episode has not aired on television." But the episode has aired, so not airing on TV is irrelevent. Other shows air online first and then sometimes, but not always, on TV - Ripper Street would be a prime example. Wikipedia does not wait until the terrestrial airing of the show before including plot summaries.

"The article does not include online viewing." Why not? If the article is meant to be encyclopedic, then deliberately leaving out information like that seems counter to the purpose of the site. The article needs to be updated to note the online viewing, not censored to hide such information. "It only states Fox, ITV, and Global." Again, I would argue that this means it needs an update. "It has not even aired on Fox or Global yet." And this is utterly irrelevant, unless you are trying to prove yourself ethnocentric. Wikipedia doesn't wait until a TV show or movie has been shown in a specific country before including information; once they air or are released, as the case may be, they get covered. "I realize that there could be online versions of an episode, but that should be covered in the Broadcast section once the episode airs." There is no "could be online versions" - there are. And since it airs there first, then that should be reflected. "There is no official online network for the series. If there was, I would not have an issue" The channel that co-produces the show, ITV Encore, airs on TV via the satellite broadcaster Sky, and online via the same company's online service, NowTV. http://www.itv.com/encore/how-to-watch - "ITV Encore is available on NOWTV" http://watch.nowtv.com/watch-entertainment/houdini-doyle/2c57b5b9a9f53510VgnVCM1000000b43150a____/seasons/undefined - the NowTV page which shows that Episode 8 of Houdini and Doyle is currently available to watch online. So this shows that there is an official online network for the show. ITVEncore is the UK channel that co-produces it, and they choose to use NowTV to air it. I can't see how anyone could argue that's not official. 86.160.202.23 (talk) 05:47, 25 April 2016 (UTC)