Talk:Chelsea Manning/October 2013 move request: Difference between revisions

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→‎Support move to "Chelsea Manning": What the...? I've never seen RM discussions divided by date. The only thing it'll do is split the numbers, making them harder to tally. If I'm going against process in removing the subheaders, feel free to revert.
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==== Support move to "Chelsea Manning" ====
==== Support move to "Chelsea Manning" ====
===== 30 September 2013 (UTC) =====
<s>'''Support''' because this is the common name, per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], and per [[WP:BLP]] and [[MOS:IDENTITY]]. [[User:Josh Gorand|Josh Gorand]] ([[User talk:Josh Gorand|talk]]) 19:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)</s>
<s>'''Support''' because this is the common name, per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], and per [[WP:BLP]] and [[MOS:IDENTITY]]. [[User:Josh Gorand|Josh Gorand]] ([[User talk:Josh Gorand|talk]]) 19:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)</s>
#'''Strong support'''. This seems to be the most common name now, and articles on other transgendered persons are at their identifying name to satisfy BLP and IDENTITY -- save this one, an omission that should be corrected. '''''D'''''[[User:Dralwik|'''ralwi''']][[User:Dralwik/sandbox|'''k''']]&#124;<sup>[[User talk:Dralwik|Have a Chat]]</sup> 20:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
#'''Strong support'''. This seems to be the most common name now, and articles on other transgendered persons are at their identifying name to satisfy BLP and IDENTITY -- save this one, an omission that should be corrected. '''''D'''''[[User:Dralwik|'''ralwi''']][[User:Dralwik/sandbox|'''k''']]&#124;<sup>[[User talk:Dralwik|Have a Chat]]</sup> 20:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
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#:::::well perhaps the spirit moved me. Nonetheless, if the sources were flipped the other way, with 40% for Chelsea, I would have stil !voted for the move - but if the sources were only 5% Chelsea, probably not. Many have proposed BLP as a trump card here, and stated that irregardless of sources, BLP trumps commonname. I disagree. The feelings of the subject do count, but so does our responsibility to neutrally report facts from RS.--[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 01:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
#:::::well perhaps the spirit moved me. Nonetheless, if the sources were flipped the other way, with 40% for Chelsea, I would have stil !voted for the move - but if the sources were only 5% Chelsea, probably not. Many have proposed BLP as a trump card here, and stated that irregardless of sources, BLP trumps commonname. I disagree. The feelings of the subject do count, but so does our responsibility to neutrally report facts from RS.--[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 01:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
#'''Support''' RS are taking up the new name. [[User:DavidLeighEllis|DavidLeighEllis]] ([[User talk:DavidLeighEllis|talk]]) 23:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
#'''Support''' RS are taking up the new name. [[User:DavidLeighEllis|DavidLeighEllis]] ([[User talk:DavidLeighEllis|talk]]) 23:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

===== 1 October 2013 (UTC) =====
#'''Support''' – Per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. The sources have largely gone this way, we should too. I would also say that I don't believe [[WP:BLP]] applies here and strongly disagree with the suggestions that an individual changing their name requires the article title be changed as well. There's nothing wrong with taking that into consideration, and in Chelsea's case here, I believe it would have tipped the scales of my opinion if the sources' choices had not been as strong as they are, but there are plenty of possible rename cases (where the name change in question has nothing to do with those individuals' gender identities) where doing so could produce a suboptimal or even bad result. [[User:Egsan Bacon|Egsan Bacon]] ([[User talk:Egsan Bacon|talk]]) 00:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
#'''Support''' – Per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. The sources have largely gone this way, we should too. I would also say that I don't believe [[WP:BLP]] applies here and strongly disagree with the suggestions that an individual changing their name requires the article title be changed as well. There's nothing wrong with taking that into consideration, and in Chelsea's case here, I believe it would have tipped the scales of my opinion if the sources' choices had not been as strong as they are, but there are plenty of possible rename cases (where the name change in question has nothing to do with those individuals' gender identities) where doing so could produce a suboptimal or even bad result. [[User:Egsan Bacon|Egsan Bacon]] ([[User talk:Egsan Bacon|talk]]) 00:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], common sense, etc. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 00:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], common sense, etc. [[User:Legoktm|Legoktm]] ([[User talk:Legoktm|talk]]) 00:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 05:49, 1 October 2013

Move request 2

Note: !votes and comments on this proposal to move the article belong in the appropriate sections below.
Note also: this is a Requested Move, not a Request for Comment. It is not expected that a Requested Move be phrased in a neutral format: instead, it is expected that the proposer endorse the move. It is the responsibility of people reviewing the request to review the evidence and form their own opinion.


Bradley Manning → Chelsea Manning – As proposed by the closers of the last debate and agreed by subsequent consensus, I am starting the new move discussion and proposing that we move the article currently located at Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning, for the following reasons:

  • On August 22, 2013, the subject of this article announced that she identified as female and that her name is Chelsea E. Manning, and requested that people refer to her using this name.
  • Most reliable sources started using this name within a week. At this point (30 September 2013), the overwhelming majority of reliable sources use Chelsea Manning when referring to this person.
  • Many editors have expressed a concern that using the former name of a transgendered person—that she has requested not be used—as the article title, is offensive and causes harm to that person.

Relevant sources on usage in reliable sources as well as relevant policies and guidelines, contributed by various users over the last few weeks, are cited below. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:15, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion guidelines

Click here to read the guidance for this discussion

Please be civil, and respect the viewpoints of others. Please do not engage in battlegrounding. Please assume good faith and do not engage in personal attacks.

Please cite relevant Wikipedia policies when you make your argument. You may wish to consider the arguments that others put forward in the previous move request.

Respect other editors and stay on topic

Wikipedia has editors from all over the world, raised in different societies and with different cultural norms, so please assume good faith and accept that different people may have different views from you on this subject. This discussion centers around the title of the article currently located at Bradley Manning. Please comment only about what you think the best choice of article title is according to Wikipedia's policies; please refrain from making other types of comments. For example, your personal opinions about transgenderism — whether pro or con — are not germane to this discussion, and such off-topic comments may be closed or ignored.

Avoiding offensive language

Wikipedia's Biographies of living persons policy also applies on talk pages, so please familiarize yourself with it. To avoid what some perceive as transphobia[1] during this discussion and to ensure there is a welcoming environment for editors of all kinds, please consider adhering to the following guidelines:

  1. Do not use the following words, which are considered offensive: 'transvestite,' 'she-male,' 'he-she,' 'it,' 'trannie,' 'tranny,' and 'shim.'
  2. Avoid comparing Manning's Gender identity disorder to the belief that one is an animal or object (e.g. "if I wake up one morning and decide I'm a dog, that doesn't make me one.") Manning was diagnosed with gender identity disorder by a clinical psychologist in 2010, so the gender and name change is not a whim nor is Manning's diagnosis a legal tactic.
  3. Do not share your opinion on whether or not Manning is really a woman, or needs to have surgery, hormone treatment, or a legal name change to become one. This is a debate about an article title, not a forum to discuss Manning's "true" gender or sex.
  4. Do not make comments about what sort of genitals Manning has, which is irrelevant to the title of the article and none of our business.
  5. Do not state that Manning's only "real" name is Bradley or Chelsea. You can share your thoughts on what Manning's "legal" name is, but recall that, per WP:AT and WP:OFFICIALNAME, there is no obligation for biographies to use the legal names of their subjects as their titles.
  6. The question of what pronouns to use for Manning is contentious, and current usage in sources is mixed. It has been suggested the best way to avoid offense is to use 'she' when referring to Manning in the present tense.[2] In any case, the move request is not a discussion on the use of pronouns in the article.
  7. Do not make speculative remarks about the future (e.g. Manning might change her mind next week/year). Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

How to respond to offensive language

Please remember that the policy No personal attacks applies to this discussion, for all editors. If you see someone's comment and it offends you or you find it transphobic, consider informing them with a civil note on their talk page that you find their language inappropriate, or reporting their comment at WP:ANI if it is egregiously offensive. We're all learning here, and a more open approach (e.g. "You said this, which could be construed as harmful language towards a BLP, can you consider rewording it") may yield more dividends than simply accusing someone of transphobia because they crossed a line they may not have been aware of. Blanket statements like "Those proposing to keep the article titled Bradley are bigoted transphobes" polarize the discussion and are likely to make other contributors less willing to understand your view.

Resources to learn about transgender people

Sanctions

Discussion of the subject of this article and/or transgender issues falls under standard discretionary sanctions. See also, WP:BLPBAN.

Notes

  1. ^ Transphobia is defined as "A reaction of fear, loathing, and discriminatory treatment of people whose identity or gender presentation (or perceived gender or gender identity) does not “match,” in the societally accepted way, the sex they were assigned at birth." @ Words That are Transphobic and Why
  2. ^ Use of female pronouns for Manning is recommended by the Manual of Style. The National Gay and Lesbian Journalists Association suggests the use of 'he' for the writing of historical events and 'she' for the present tense, here and here, while 'she' is recommended by many other organizations such as GLAAD for all phases of Manning's life. The AP stylebook states "Transgender: Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics of the opposite sex or present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth. If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly."

Relevant content policies and guidelines

Click here for a list of relevant content policies and guidelines

Below is a listing of Wikipedia policies and guidelines that may be relevant to this discussion. They are sorted in alphabetical order by page title, then by section title, so as to remain neutral.


Evidence

Click here for evidence on usage of Bradley and Chelsea from various reliable sources.

Evidence from reliable news sources on what names they use on first mention

This section can be used to gather evidence from reliable sources on usage of Chelsea Manning vs Bradley Manning as the primary name of the subject.

Sources are sorted based on their latest use of one name or the other in an article or editorial statement from after August 22, when the announcement was made. It is trivially obvious that sources from before the announcement use Bradley; that is not of interest and such sources are not listed here.

Note that regardless of which name they use on first mention, almost all of the sources listed in both sections mention and contribute to readers' awareness of the existence of both names.

Statements by news agencies on their policy to address Manning as Chelsea
News agencies with a policy of addressing Manning as Chelsea
Statements by news agencies on their policy to address Manning as Bradley
News agencies with a policy of addressing Manning as Bradley
News agencies using Chelsea Manning
News agencies using Chelsea Manning
News agencies using post-announcement AP or AFP articles while retaining Chelsea
News agencies using Bradley Manning
News agencies using Bradley Manning
News agencies which modified AP or AFP stories to use "Bradley"
News agencies which haven't clearly chosen one name over the other

News sources which have mixed up usage of Bradley and Chelsea. In most cases, if a news source started using Bradley post Aug 22, and then started exclusively using Chelsea, we marked it in the Chelsea list. However, if a news source has alternated between use of Bradley and Chelsea since Aug 22, then it is listed here.

Extended content

Evidence from reliable non-news sources on what names they use

Chelsea
Non-news sources addressing Manning as Chelsea
Bradley
Non-news sources addressing Manning as Bradley
  • "While PVT Manning wants supporters to acknowledge and respect her gender identity as she proceeds into the post-trial state of her life, she also expects that the name Bradley Manning and the male pronoun will continue to be used in certain instances. These instances include any reference to the trial, in legal documents, in communication with the government, in the current petition to the White House calling for clemency, and on the envelope of letters written to her by supporters. She also expects that many old photos and graphics will remain in use for the time being." Statements by Manning's Lawyer, David Coombs
  • Lawyers for Manning used the name "Bradley" in a 9/3/2013 cover letter to the President. Pardon request cover letter for Pvt. Manning.

Sources specifically discussing media usage

Sources discussing media usage
Sources specifically discussing the title of the Wikipedia article
Sources discussing the title of this Wikipedia article

On initial move from Bradley to Chelsea

On reversal from Chelsea to Bradley

(list courtesy of [14])

Sources discussing how naming decisions affect trans people
Sources discussing how naming decisions affect trans people

This section can also be used to gather reliable sources that discuss the use of names to refer to trans people. Note that this move request covers only the naming portion, and not the pronoun question.

A. Finn Enke, editor of Transfeminist Perspectives in and beyond Transgender and Gender Studies, considers names, pronouns, and learning from Chelsea Manning.
  • Subsection of Trans media watch submission to the Leveson Inquiry (press controls in the UK, [15]). On page 11 they discuss methods by which the press aggress against trans people; the first bulletpoint in that section:
"Routine use of previous names - even when the use of these names is intensely painful or places them in actual danger. Typically a transitioning transsexual person will wish to move on from their previous identity, having perhaps lived in deep distress within that ’identity’ in the past. They may be working with colleagues who know nothing of their past, or they may not have revealed their life story to neighbours. Gratuitous revelation can lead to abuse. Further, for transgender people who have a Gender Recognition Certificate, it is illegal for an individual working in an "official capacity" to disclose a person’s previous name. They are, for all legal purposes, recognised in the gender in which they live. This seldom makes any difference to the press."
  • Juliet Jacques article discussing choosing a new name. She states that someone using her old name can be "a mistake [or] a malicious attempt to undermine my identity".

Some editors have expressed a concern that the following source is not reliable, while other editors consider it to be reliable:

  • Wikipedia’s Deadnaming Violence ("our old name are frequently weaponised against us, often as a precursor to physical violence. And the violence of weaponized old names springs from the same disrespect, mockery, and hatred that informs fatal physical violence. These are all connected.") (Urban Achives) (written by digital media ethics scholar)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section below, followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a substitute for discussion, and please provide a brief explanation for your recommendation. Responses to statements made in the survey sections should be restricted to the discussion section.

Support move to "Chelsea Manning"

Support because this is the common name, per WP:COMMONNAME, and per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

  1. Strong support. This seems to be the most common name now, and articles on other transgendered persons are at their identifying name to satisfy BLP and IDENTITY -- save this one, an omission that should be corrected. Dralwik|Have a Chat 20:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  2. Strong Support. I am not an expert on policy, but I think respect is important. I think disrespecting her clearly-stated identity would encourage cissexism, risking harm to trans people, and would open a can of worms about when to respect people's identities and when not to. Ananiujitha (talk) 20:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  3. Support per BLP, because this is the name she has announced for herself, and per V and COMMONNAME, because it appears to be the name most used by reliable sources since the announcement. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  4. Support. First, to address WP:BLP policy, some things are mandated by BLP policy, when something is mandated by BLP policy, BLP policy trumpts pretty much all other concerns, and only once the BLP issue is resolved, will other policies come in to play. The classic example of such a mandate is that a negative statement about a living person must be properly sourced, or it must be removed. Other points in WP:BLP carry considerable weight, but are not mandates. The latter covers the language such as the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment in the introductory paragraphs, and that human dignity and personal privacy be taken into account from the Foundation statement. That language does not mandate a specific result, only that things be considered when exercising our editorial judgement. In my opinion, WP:BLP does not mandate a result here. Nonetheless, we should give strong weight to the non-mandatory language. In the case of a person who has changed names as a result of gender identity, their wishes, when clearly expressed, should carry considerable weight. While in specific cases there may be facts that change the calculus, in most cases the wishes of the subject should outweigh WP:Article Titles and WP:COMMONNAME. While we generally prefer to follow the language used by most reliable sources, there is a good reason not to here, and the alternative is also supported by reliable sources, albeit fewer. I think number of people where suspicious of the timing here, it occurring right at the peak of Manning's notoriety. However, as time has gone on, and we look deeper at the question, it has become increasingly clear that the revelation regarding Manning's gender identity is legitimate. As such, there is nothing here that would change that default calculus, and the article should be moved to Chelsea Manning. Monty845 20:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  5. Support per WP:COMMONNAME more sources are using Chelsea now. However WP:BLP does not apply and as noted before by another editor there have been good faith opinions but no real evidence to support the claim. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  6. Support per WP:COMMONNAME - the obvious trend among sources is to use Chelsea. Additionally, BLP - while somewhat vague on this point - would, in my opinion, tend to back such a move. Kiralexis (talk) 20:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  7. Support per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY, and because this is the name that the majority of sources appear now to be using. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  8. Support per MOS:IDENTITY, WP:COMMONNAME and human decency. There will be no reader confusion with a redirect from Bradley Manning - David Gerard (talk) 20:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  9. Support per WP:COMMONNAME Iselilja (talk) 20:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  10. Support. In contrast to the situation at the time of the original move, most sources are now using "Chelsea" in reports of current events. Our normal practice of respecting people's self-identification in the absence of serious and meaningful doubts as to its sincerity or accuracy (i.e. that mysterious "spirit" of WP:BLP) is no longer in conflict with established sources.—Kww(talk) 20:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  11. Support. Chelsea Manning is a woman, and must be treated like one. Christine Jorgensen similarly has an article titled as such, not as George Jorgensen, which is just a re-direct. Georgia guy (talk) 20:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  12. Support as per WP:COMMONNAME, but not per WP:BLP. It is not a violation of BLP to use "Bradley Manning" as the title, but we should recognize that most sources have adopted "Chelsea Manning" as the preferred name. Edge3 (talk) 21:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  13. Support, naturally per BLP. It's her name and we are only causing harm by misgendering her under her former name. It's shameful to have taken this long to correct the title but let's get it done now. Sportfan5000 (talk) 21:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  14. Support per WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:IDENTITY. If she identifies herself as a woman and wishes to undergo hormone treatment tand surgery to legitimately become one, she is a woman. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 21:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  15. Support; the reasoning and justification for doing so is overwhelming to my eyes. Andrew Gray (talk) 21:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  16. Support per BLP and because so long as a redirect is in place no confusion will result, while leaving it as it is is an implicit insult to any trans* people reading Wikipedia, and where possible we should strive to minimise such insults to marginalised groups. Stealth Munchkin (talk) 21:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  17. Support. With gratitude to editors tracking name usage in reliable sources, which indicate that, per WP:COMMONNAME and,WP:MOSIDENTITY. and because Chelsea Manning is a woman, her article should be appropriately renamed. I, JethroBT drop me a line 21:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  18. Support per WP:DIGNITY. It is insulting to title an article with a name the subject rejects. We should always use a subject's preferred name on their biography when, as in this case from day one, doing so won't make the article difficult to find. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  19. Support. The list above of news sources that are currently using "Chelsea" ought to settle the issue even for people who have a range of different views on the general question, I think. - Dank (push to talk) 21:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  20. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, as most sources are now using Chelsea, and per WP:BLP, which provides a reasonable basis for using her name, even if the policy does not expressly require it. Gobōnobō + c 21:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  21. Support, despite the disruptive "I wanna be first" start to this RM which completely disregarded the hard work of all of the editors who have been working for a month to put this RM together. Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DIGNITY, there is no reason to hold the article at Bradley. Redirects are cheap.--v/r - TP 21:44, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  22. Support RS are using both Chelsea Manning and Bradley Manning. From my owns analysis of Google News, I judge Chelsea Manning to be ahead in sources but (surprisingly to me) not vastly. If this were on another topic, I'd say wait a while longer to give sources more time to settle. However, I find WP:DIGNITY to be compelling in this case. As clarified in the previous RM, there are no WP:IDENTITY or WP:BLP issues with the article being at the title Bradley Manning. However, there is little benefit now to the encyclopaedia in keeping it there. Manning herself has said she wants to be called as Chelsea. And the majority of sources appear to be to be on the "Chelsea" side of the question. So out of respect for the subject, given that we can see now that that's how sources are leaning, it's time to move. --Tóraí (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  23. Support I have to say I really don't even understand opposition to this. If Jim Smith changed his name to John Jones, why would anybody oppose changing his article name? The redirect will still exist, so opposition cannot be based on the possibility of confusion. If someone got married and changed names, would we insist her article stay under her maiden name? If we didn't like that someone with a traditional name like Clay changed his last name to Ali, would we block a move? This discussion strikes me as bizarre in the extreme. μηδείς (talk) 21:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  24. Support for the all of the reasons it should have been done a month ago. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  25. Support I think the U.S. law principle of strict scrutiny for rules that cause potential harm to disadvantaged groups is the simplest way to look at this. Adapting the principles of that would require us to have compelling encyclopedic reasons, avoid overbroad solutions, and use the least damaging means to achieve the encyclopedic ends. Is there a strong encyclopedic benefit to making clear that "Chelsea Manning" is the same person as the "Bradley Manning" that all the older news, from before she came out, reported on? Yes, so mentioning it comes under a compelling encyclopedic interest. However, having the page at Bradley is both an overbroad solution, and causes potential harm unnecessarily, by passing an editorial judgement that a transwoman should officially be known under her male name. The encyclopedic purpose is served nearly or equally as well by having the page at Chelsea Manning, and stating in the first sentence that she was formerly known as "Bradley Manning", and having a redirect from "Bradley Manning" to bring in anyone who has not heard about her coming out. As such, having the page at Bradley Manning is overbroad and fails to use the least damaging means to the encyclopedic ends, and must be rejected. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  26. Support 100% common name and although not strictly BLP i feel a person should be known by what they wish more than ever in cases of transgender.Blethering Scot 22:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  27. Support. It's been so long, I've forgotten anything about who Chelsea Manning is or why she is not called Bradley, so I'm just following the herd, really. Please discount my vote. For the record, though, it's absolutely obvious that there's a BLP issue with calling a person by a name they have taken a decision not to be known by. This should be noted by the closer. Formerip (talk) 22:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  28. Support primarily as an ethical position (so policy-wise channel that via BLP or via the "problematic names" language in WP:AT, but it's a justification not a reason). Chris Smowton (talk) 23:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  29. Support It is the person's name now - does not seem like there is much to dispute. --Varnent (talk)(COI) 23:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  30. Support I agree there is no BLP concern with the title and that the MOS does not override policy, but it does seem clear that reliable sources are leaning heavily towards Chelsea Manning being used for the common name as I suspected they would. Whether it is truly at the moment where it is the most common name or not, I see no reason to prolong the inevitable. Unless he opts for another name or reneges, there is no reason to not use Chelsea.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 23:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  31. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, although I also think WP:BLP applies in this situation since disregarding a person's gender change in an article title is disrespectful and could have real negative effects on that person. Kaldari (talk) 23:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  32. Support Chelsea per WP:AT, esp WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA. Reject WP:BLP as reason. Explanation below.
    • On August 22, 2013, Manning announced that she identified as female and that her name is Chelsea E. Manning, and requested that people refer to her using this name. We thus have clear documentation of the subject's preference - which is normally not closely considered, but should be nonetheless taken account of as one factor for the discussion.
    • In the weeks following the announcement, the bulk of reliable sources started using the name Chelsea on first use to identify the subject (while still explaining that this was a person previously known as Bradley).
    • Per WP:COMMONNAME, when a name change occurs, we should give more priority to sources *after* the name change than before. With that in mind, the evidence below was on use AFTER August 22. In terms of pure numbers, there will likely *always* be more articles that refer to Manning as Bradley, since so much coverage was generated before and during the trial, vs after it. This should not prevent us from considering a move, however.
    • In addition, several major news sources, including NY Times, AP, TIME, and NPR publicly stated their editorial guidelines for using "Chelsea" to refer to the subject. It was worth noting that both NY Times and NPR stumbled early on, and struggled with many of the same issues Wikipedians did in the earlier discussion, but finally decided to address Manning as Chelsea and use the female pronouns.
    • Another change of note was the Encyclopedia Brittanica, which changed the title of their article on September 5, 2013. Encyclopedias are different than news sources, so the fact that they changed is significant.
    • At this point, as one of the small group of editors building sources for this move request, I have become very familiar with media usage of Bradley and Chelsea, and have watched many sources change before my eyes. There are still exceptions - for example AFP, which is one of the major wire services, has been found to use both, even though an email from an AFP editor claimed they were going to use Chelsea. We also saw instances of AP-issued stories being modified, changing "Chelsea" to Bradley. I have noticed a pattern whereby sources which have signed on to the use of Chelsea may nonetheless use Bradley in ancillary articles that only mention the subject - which would explain why you may still see hits with "Bradley" in those sources.
    • Many editors have invoked BLP. I believe BLP is not a reason to move this page, as the name Bradley is well sourced in reliable sources and it has not been demonstrated that having "Bradley" in the title is somehow significantly more harmful than having "Bradley" in the lede, infobox, photos, running text, or redirects. If "Bradley" was a BLP issue, then the word should be excised, but instead we welcome it everywhere. Thus, while BLP does apply to titles in general, BLP cannot be used as a reason to move this one.
    • In close cases, COMMONNAME is notoriously hard to determine. The evidence gathered above, while not overwhelmingly in favor of Chelsea, is nonetheless solid - but it's not yet a slam dunk, esp given major wire services like AFP, Reuters and UPI have not demonstrated a clear preference, and some "Chelsea" sources have been seen to slip back to Bradley (w/o mention of Chelsea) in ancillary articles, thus suggesting "Bradley" is still common, at least for that writer. Overall, Chelsea wins for COMMONNAME, but what tips the scale here are the other criteria, per WP:AT, and the subject's preference. Those criteria are as follows:
    • Recognizability – Chelsea is now, arguably, as recognizable or moreso than Bradley, due to the rapid switch in the media
    • Naturalness – Bradley is still probably a better fit for this, since most searches will still be on Bradley Bradley vs Chelsea search trends
    • Precision – Chelsea and Bradley are equally precise
    • Conciseness – Chelsea and Bradley are equally concise
    • Consistency - A tally of trans* people's articles found that the vast majority were at their most recent name. In the name of consistency, people would thus expect to find a trans* person's article at their most recent name.
    • Finally, we have clearly expressed preferences of the subject, and in the name of balancing potential offense to the subject with an encyclopedic title, we don't have to choose between the two any longer, as Chelsea works just fine. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    It seems you've failed to see the irony of your above justification for not using BLP as part of your support rationale: "...we have clearly expressed preferences of the subject, and in the name of balancing potential offense to the subject with an encyclopedic title, we don't have to choose between the two any longer..." — if I am not mistaken, that is the very spirit of BLP. Kurtis (talk) 01:28, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    well perhaps the spirit moved me. Nonetheless, if the sources were flipped the other way, with 40% for Chelsea, I would have stil !voted for the move - but if the sources were only 5% Chelsea, probably not. Many have proposed BLP as a trump card here, and stated that irregardless of sources, BLP trumps commonname. I disagree. The feelings of the subject do count, but so does our responsibility to neutrally report facts from RS.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  33. Support RS are taking up the new name. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 23:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  34. Support – Per WP:COMMONNAME. The sources have largely gone this way, we should too. I would also say that I don't believe WP:BLP applies here and strongly disagree with the suggestions that an individual changing their name requires the article title be changed as well. There's nothing wrong with taking that into consideration, and in Chelsea's case here, I believe it would have tipped the scales of my opinion if the sources' choices had not been as strong as they are, but there are plenty of possible rename cases (where the name change in question has nothing to do with those individuals' gender identities) where doing so could produce a suboptimal or even bad result. Egsan Bacon (talk) 00:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  35. Support per WP:COMMONNAME, common sense, etc. Legoktm (talk) 00:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  36. Support per MOS:IDENTITY and common decency.-gadfium 00:17, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  37. Support. First, because the source material has clearly moved in this direction. Second, even though I accept that BLP does not mandate that we do this, I think that the spirit of BLP (or WP:DIGNITY if one prefers) points us in the direction that this is the right editorial choice to make. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  38. Support—it is just the right thing to do at this time per policy and the MOS. Imzadi 1979 → 00:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  39. Support I did a search and found out that Editors were debating Manning's identity change on Wikipedia back in 2012. So, this name change did not come out of the blue. I think if you look at transgender individuals on WP, it's clear that we honor their sexual identity decisions. This is not an isolated case and it should be handled like other transgender people's articles. Liz Read! Talk! 01:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  40. Chelsea identifies herself as a female. Gender identity is not defined by one's sexual organs. Kurtis (talk) 01:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  41. Support because of WP:IAR and WP:HARM. "Bradley Manning" is not a BLP violation. "Bradley Manning" is the COMMONNAME known by 95% of the population and why every news article that mentions Chelsea has to introduce her using "Bradley Manning". Whether that will diminish is yet to be known but today, the common name is "Bradley" as the press is in transition. Moreover, news article that aren't specifically about Chelsea Manning (i.e. the "Coombs announcement interview" week articles and last weeks "Coomb's tours Leavenworth" articles) , invariably use "Bradley Manning" when word count is more important (i.e. google news search the last week for "snowden manning -chelsea" returns numerous, post anouncement articles about whistleblowers that ignore Mannings preferred name and her gender including news sources with MOS statements. It remains to be seen whether articles that indirectly mention Manning will use Chelsea or Bradley or the current "Chelsea, formerly Bradley, Manning." The only real reason to move now is that the encyclopedic value lost by using Chelsea is outweighed by the perceived harm. All of our policies and guidelines for content say "Bradley Manning" and rather than torture ourselves into fitting this move into a policy that rejects it, it's simply easier to IAR and move it due to harm. Create the redirect (or dab) from Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning so that 95% of our readers can find it. --DHeyward (talk) 02:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  42. Strong support. I do believe WP:BLP is an issue, although I acknowledge other editors feel differently. Regardless, WP:DIGNITY, WP:HARM, MOS:IDENTITY and WP:COMMONNAME all support the move. I agree with DHeyward that the cost of the move is non-existent and therefore outweighed by any prospect of harm. Sue Gardner (talk) 02:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  43. Support because it's the right thing to do, regardless of whatever bureaucratic acronyms we choose to wrap it in. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  44. Support per WP:COMMONNAME given RS usage but also WP:BLP (& other policies as above). AnonNep (talk) 04:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Oppose move to "Chelsea Manning"

  1. Oppose on COMMONNAME, Strong Oppose on any other basis. - There is no consensus as of yet among reliable sources of what title to use for Ms. Manning and in the absence of clear guidance from reliable sources, we should err with the stable title of Bradley Manning. In addition, Bradley Manning is the title used during the entirety of the period on which she was notable and WP:AT explicitly states that we have to "remember that the choice of title is not dependent on whether a name is "right" in a moral or political sense." Chelsea Manning would not be a terrible title for the article, but under WP:AT's description for what makes a good Wikipedia article, it falls short under the first pillar, recognition, relative to Bradley Manning, as she has been described for years.
    I strongly oppose on the basis of BLP or MOSIDENTITY. The individual under question was already noted as Bradley Manning for a very long period of time, so there's no outing or privacy issue and she's not notability for being a transgendered woman, but for being involved in a prominent espionage case. I don't see MOSIDENTITY as applicable here - even ignoring that its applicability to the situation is in dispute, a guideline cannot supercede a policy, that of WP:AT
    Note that this is only for the *title* of the article. I will strongly oppose any attempts to remove "she" or "her" or, where applicable "Chelsea" because unlike the title policy, these guidelines are not superceded by an applicable policy.CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 20:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    You mention a lack of reliable sources, although we have innumerable reliable sources mentioning what Manning herself wants. Is there some sort of reliable source that serves as a registry for name changes regardless of the subject's wishes? I know Germany doesn't allow children to be given certain names. Is there some analog for American citizens, especially adults? μηδείς (talk) 22:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  2. Oppose per commonname. Individual is notable for activities which took place while named Bradley Manning. Our primary obligation is to our readers who, per principle of least astonishment, will expect article to make name that has been most widely publicized. NE Ent 01:58, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Redirects are cheap, and it is likely that both names will appear bolded in the lead. Any astonishment on the part of the reader is likely to be brief and superficial. Recent coverage, for which the subject is also notable, has extensively used her present name, and so it does not seem unreasonable to assume that many readers will actually expect Chelsea. I, JethroBT drop me a line 03:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  3. Oppose as "Bradley" is the name she was known as during her most notable activities; both leaking the material, and during the trial. I consider "Chelsea" as only being undo weight. I should add there is no possible application of BLP to this choice, whether the lead starts
    1. Bradley Manning, now known as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, or
    2. Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, formerly known as Bradley Manning.
    — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Neutral

  1. Comment The RfC is not neutrally worded and thus its legitimacy is compromised. I suggest someone just closing this and starting another RfC that is neutrally worded. Also, this is bad timing considering that ArbCom is in the middling of finalizing their decision. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    This move got started before a definite RfC was agreed on, so I feel editors should be free to alter the RfC to make it more neutral. As well, ArbCom had the opportunity to block a move before the resolution of their case, and had no consensus to do so. Dralwik|Have a Chat 21:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    I agree if you feel that this is non neutral then feel free to alter it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    Is it really worth stirring up a hornets' nest over the wording of the RfC RM when the result looks a foregone conclusion? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    The discussion is tainted, we need a firm consensus not someone down the line going at "but josh and obi edit warred and so..." - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    I really did not want to get involved in this page, but this is not an RfC, it is a Requested move, and it is not supposed to be "neutral"; the instructions for creating a requested move specifically ask the requesting party to make their case in favor of the move. Cheers! bd2412 T
    See WP:RM/CM and pay attention to this part: "Note: Nominators should usually not add a separate bullet point to support their nomination,...".TMCk (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    I'd say that anyone commenting here knows "this is the discussion about whether it's 'Bradley Manning' or 'Chelsea Manning'" and that's the entire important information. I don't think the precise wording in the header is going to make any difference - David Gerard (talk) 21:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    It's true that RMs (as opposed to RFCs) do not have to be neutrally worded, but in that case the requester should not be included in the survey of !votes. StAnselm (talk) 21:29, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    This is too long a discussion to be in the voting section. Would someone care to move it to the discussion section? bd2412 T 21:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    Regardless of whether this is an RfC or MR, the principle is the same. The wording should be neutral so as to not unduly sway the !voting or the consensus building process. Imagine voting in a presidential election and the voting booth contained a long list of all the great things Obama is doing for America and how terrible McCain is (or vice versa). Such a scenario would be completely unacceptable. That's basically what we have here. Further, it should be an RfC so as to better reflect community consensus. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Um, the whole point of a move proposal under the RM procedure is to make an argument in favour of a change, not to be "neutral" on the question. As it happens, the proposal is actually fairly neutrally worded in its summary of the related evidence. Advocating a particular change is required. Editors opposed to the proposal can state their opposition in the oppose or discussion sections. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    @A Quest For Knowledge, it sounds as if your disagreement is with the RM process itself. If you think that RM discussions should be presented in a different way, that is best taken up at WP:VPP. bd2412 T 02:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Given that the last discussion was so contentious that it required an ArbCom case to sort through and that several editors face topic-bans and admins face desysopping, one would hope that we follow best practices. Unfortunately, since the legitimacy of the discussion is now is serious disrepute, I fear that we're just guaranteeing that the matter be left unresolved and we'll just have a third discussion on how to handle the article title. Is that what everyone wants? I don't think so, but that is the risk that we run if the MR continues down its current path. So I guess what I'm saying is do we want to resolve the content dispute, or prolong it? The only way to resolve it is to do it the right way. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Asserting that "the legitimacy of the discussion is now is serious disrepute" is a serious charge. Do you have any evidence for this, besides your personal opinion? bd2412 T 03:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Sure. If you want to search through the WP:V talk page archives regarding "truth, not verifiability", you'll find that than entire RfC was rejected in part because the wording wasn't neutral, and the wording wasn't nearly as biased as this MR. We spent several months, perhaps close to a year, trying to build consensus. Sorry to be the one to break the bad news. Perhaps this issue isn't as contentious as "truth, not verifiability", who knows, but again, we should be following best practices. HTH. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Note: I had been hoping to pull together a consensus wording for the RM, and to issue it as an RFC, but I didn't act early enough, so I accept some blame; I should have proposed this earlier, but I wasn't paying attention to the ticking clock (and it started to look like Arbcom was going to force an extension). I think for an RM like this one, it definitely would have been better to have each side put together a support/oppose paragraph, word the whole thing as neutrally as possible, and set it up as a formal RFC (but still just run for 7 days). But it's too late for that now; I think people are !voting based on the evidence, not on the framing statement. Let's see where consensus lies, but I suspect it will be pretty overwhelming in favor of Chelsea, even though we tried hard to put together fair and even evidence from both sides.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:57, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Re "an entire RfC was rejected in part because the wording wasn't neutral, and the wording wasn't nearly as biased as this MR": as has been pointed out, RFCs are supposed to be neutrally worded, while RMs are supposed to make a case to move the article. I don't think it would have been necessary for this RM to include a rationale at all if including a rationale hadn't been required, but a rationale was required, so one was included. :) If you think RMs should be held differently, and more like RFCs, WP:VPP and WT:RM seem like the best places to propose that. -sche (talk) 05:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  2. The RfC is fundamentally flawed. Let's wait for ArbCom to do something before making the situation more intractable. Collect (talk) 23:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    First, this is not an RfC. This is an RM, a different process. Second, ArbCom does not settle content disputes. Nothing ArbCom does will resolve the dispute at issue here. bd2412 T 00:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    Also, it has been agreed by consensus for about a month that we would have this RM starting on this date, this has been well known to everyone. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Redirects

  • Wikipedia has redirects. I think this enables us, and requires us, to consider which name is more respectful, at least as much as which name is more common. A redirect from a common but disrespectful name to a respectful name doesn't create many problems, except possibly technical ones. A redirect from a common and respectful name to a disrespectful name does imply disrespect. That may not be the intention, but what many readers may find is just as important as what the editors intend. Ananiujitha (talk) 20:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    Concur - reader confusion will be alleviated by the intro. I don't think anyone's seriously argued the redirect shouldn't exist, or that the name "Bradley" shouldn't be mentioned, we are an encyclopedia - but redirects and explanation should suffice - David Gerard (talk) 21:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    (edit conflict) No. Irrespective of whether the article ends up at Chelsea Manning or Bradley Manning. And I'm surprised David would suggest otherwise because this idea fundamentally misunderstands what Wikipedia is.
    Wikipedia is a project written with the intention of re-use. That's what the project is about: creating free encyclopaedia content that anyone can re-use. Redirects may not be present in re-uses.
    As an example, if you own a Mac, select and right click on the words "Cat Stevens" then select Look Up in Dictionary. You'll get a pop-up with the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article Cat Stevens. Now, do the same on the word "Yusuf Islam" and you will be told "No result found". This is because the article is at Cat Stevens whereas Yusuf Islam is just a redirect.
    That's why we we have the common name policy. And why redirects are not a substitute for properly policy-compliant article titles. --Tóraí (talk) 21:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Two versions of move request

Resolved - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


  • Is it possible to get both versions of the move request up top? It might be better to have both versions than just one. Ananiujitha (talk) 21:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    Fine by me, fwiw - David Gerard (talk) 21:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    Done. bd2412 T 21:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It ain't pretty. Perhaps now you might understand why I was proposing that we work on a consensus version first before starting the RM. In any case, now that we're here, any objection to me continuing to edit my little "reasons" section up above? My preference, of course, would be to have a shared, and neutral header - neutral because I think we should consider opening this as an RFC to get broad participation on this rather important issue - but it may be hard to get there quickly during this discussion.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Not recommended Obiwan. Kww said that if you edit that section at all, he'd restore your block. Just let it go or propose changes here.--v/r - TP 21:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Yup, I just read that after my q above. I've asked Kww for clarification.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I am just a passerby here, other than the fact that I did "vote" in the last RM (but will probably sit this one out) and I also just fixed minor grammatical errors in both yours and Josh's statements. (Hopefully nobody will object to that. It was the same error, in a sentence obviously cloned from one statement to the other.) As ugly as it is with the two statements, I would just leave it alone - even if you get clarification that you are permitted to work on it. This is the way it is, it is becoming "stable" this way, and changing the header statements at this point would threaten the legitimacy of a process whose legitimacy is already hanging by a thread, IMHO. And besides, when people go to the Table of Contents and click on "Survey" so they can "vote," the vast majority are probably never even going to see those statements, separated as they are from the "Survey" by those three hide/show boxes. That's probably not what you wanted to hear, but I think it's true. Neutron (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, the discussion before the move had at least 2 or three people suggesting we should start the move and tweak the header as we went. When I tried to do that, it started an edit war. I agree it's now water under the bridge, but I nonetheless never had the change to put together the case. Could someone please just remove my section in the header, and I will cast a !vote like the others? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:49, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Maybe it would be better to not solicit edits to the header at this time, even if looks slightly awkward. __Elaqueate (talk) 23:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm asking for my reasoning to be removed, so I can just cast a !vote - it's confusing people as it is now and is awkward. Could you remove it for me? I'm not allowed...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:09, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
(Sigh) done. bd2412 T 23:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It would have looked a little more co-operative if Obi-Wan Kenobi had shown some interest here in what Josh might have preferred, but you got someone to make the change you decided on, so I guess that's the way it goes. __Elaqueate (talk) 23:40, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Obi worked for a month gathering up things through consensus and made a bi-partisan move request from that, It is hard to assume good faith on Josh's part on the fact that he ignored it. Anyways this should be dropped. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Um, I've worked on this draft RM proposal for as long as it has existed and I am one of its major contributors of relevant sources. Obiwan was an active participant in discussions, but I don't really remember him collecting sources. I've not ignored anything; this is the agreed date and I actually waited quite a number of hours without seeing anyone else start it. We don't need a long-winded proposal anyway, just a brief statement per the instructions on creating RMs, and RM proposals are not supposed or required to be "neutral" or (co)-written by those opposed to the proposal. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I think Josh' preference was clear, given he edit warred to remove all traces of my contributions, which were really just refinements of his own. It's water under the bridge now anyway.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:45, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I have created an RM closely following the instructions on how to do so. If you had proposed those changes to the rationale in a civil way instead of edit-warring, completely against procedure, I could probably have agreed to most of those changes (although I think some sentences were unnecessary long and complicated). If the matter was that you wanted your name in the proposal section, somewhat surprising to me as a proposer of the opposite of the view you advocated last time, I would have no problem with you adding your signature to such a proposal after having discussed possible amendments. If you had behaved in a more constructive way, all this trouble would have been unnecessary. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources

  • Question. What constitutes a "source"? Is an article from a newspaper a source, or is it the newspaper itself? Eg the NYT may have written 500 articles about Bradley Manning and 10 about Chelsea Manning after the switch. Yes, I'm aware we should give more weight to newer sources. I've asked this question before and had no response. It would be helpful to put things in context.Two kinds of pork (talk) 22:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It's an interesting case. In putting together the evidence, we generally considered that a "source" was a newspaper, which has certain editorial standards for how they refer to someone or something. Now as it turns out, even newspapers which have put forth strong editorial standards calling her Chelsea have nonetheless been "caught" using Bradley, even a month after the name change. As such, we will eventually have to revert to commonname - e.g. in the majority of materials from high quality sources, what do they use? I note that encyclopedia brittanica moved to Chelsea, which I think is significant, and many papers came out with guidelines suggesting use of Chelsea. It will be interesting to look at this issue in a year or two, and see if "Chelsea" sticks. If it doesn't, it's possible COMMONNAME could revert back to Bradley - an example of same is John Mark Karr, where she changed her name, but a few years later, the name change was forgotten. This is unlikely to happen in this case however.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

No SNOW close, please

I would like to request that this discussion not be subject to a SNOW close. Everyone who wants to express their view should have the usual time to do so. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Seconded - David Gerard (talk) 21:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Thirded. It will be beneficial to all to see the blizzard last the full seven days. And move on with the fullest of consensus. --Tóraí (talk) 22:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
What is SNOW?CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:15, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
See WP:SNOW. Monty845 22:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks, not sure why that couldn't be linked in the section title. CombatWombat42 (talk) 22:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I'd SNOW close it earlier than that. The debate has been constructive and there's very clear consensus to move the article to Chelsea Manning and I say that as the only person at this time to oppose the move. Given that the consensus is clear, I don't think there's any real value to keeping the move request going when the downside is it exploding into an unpleasant situation again. I believe consensus is clearly established and on the basis of community consensus, we should quit while we're ahead, change the title and let everyone move on (with the exception of the pending arbitration matter, obviously)CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 22:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Also, those who have been involved in the article should have responded already. For what it's worth, not everyone needs to vote. Wikipedia is not a democracy, so there is not a final tally of any kind and we need not prolong voting when it is all but over. Consensus has made itself quite clear here. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 22:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
We need to give it some time to see if the current trend holds. If after a day or two its 100 to still only 1, then sure, but given the past controversy, best to be cautious. Monty845 22:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Yes, there's a chance that "support" !voters were waiting to cast there !ballot. Whereas "oppose" !voters may come to the table later. So let it run. There's no rush and a full, clear, indisputable consensus is better than WP:SNOW any day of the week. --Tóraí (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Agreed I think we should let the move discussion run it's course. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment I for one would like this to be done quickly, but we all need this to be done fairly, and allow all sides the chance to air their views. Ananiujitha (talk) 22:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I think if we're still running at a roughly 36:1 ratio in a day or two we can probably declare that the Process Gods have accepted our tribute and blessed us with rain, or whatever. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

  • I agree that the discussion should be left open for the usual seven days. During the first move discussion, several users complained about process not being followed, or actions being taken too quickly. -sche (talk) 01:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Why would anyone close this per WP:SNOW? Just because there's an initial flurry of support now doesn't mean it's going to remain so one-sided throughout. The original RM attracted a broad variety of opinions on the subject. Kurtis (talk) 01:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Someone forgot that RFCs are supposed to be worded in a neutral manner!

  • Looking at the collapsed sections at the top, this is the least neutral worded RFC I've ever seen on WP and should be scrapped right away and replaced in favour for a neutral one that doesn't mentioned anything about this one at all. This one is pushing a certain result under false pretense. One editor already retracted their support vote due to this. Some uninvolved and "detached" editor should phrase a new RFC. TMCk (talk) 22:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • See bd2412's post above in the 'neutral' section [16]- ' this is not an RfC, it is a Requested move, and it is not supposed to be "neutral"; the instructions for creating a requested move specifically ask the requesting party to make their case in favor of the move.' AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

People forget too often here that This is an RM, not an RFC. RM's are definitely not supposed to be neutral, rather the opposite. we shouldn't throw away the entire discussion because the proposal actually follows the rules. Konveyor Belt express your horror at my edits 22:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

  • See WP:RM/CM and pay attention to this part: "Note: Nominators should usually not add a separate bullet point to support their nomination,...".TMCk (talk) 22:49, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • The "separate bullet point" refers to a separate !vote, which is why Josh Gorand's vote was discounted above. It has nothing to do with the content of the proposal itself. bd2412 T 22:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Huh? Josh wasn't the nominator which the excerpt I quoted refers too.TMCk (talk) 22:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Josh moved the entire discussion, which was just a draft before that. All of this is besides the point, which is that this is an RM, not an RFC, and the RM instructions specifically state that the nominator should provide their reasons why the move should be made. There is no call to present an RM in neutral terms. It is, by nature, a form of advocacy, just like an AfD. bd2412 T 23:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I agree in principle but I was going to propose (didn't have time in the heat of the action) that we frame this as an RFC instead of as an RM, for exactly this reason. I don't know if it's worth it now, but at the beginning that was my thought, that this should be broadly advertised via the RFC process and have a neutral statement (or, alternately, each side would put forth their best arguments) - in order to have a clean process. But it's probably too late for that now.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It has been agreed by consensus for about a month, well known to everyone and especially you and me, that a Requested Move would start on 30 September. There was ample time for any editor wishing to discuss procedural questions (I don't really see why a requested move should not follow the requested move procedure that we used last time and that is always used), and also for any editor wishing to prepare any other proposal. I made this move proposal late in the day, on the day agreed on for a month. I don't see why we need a more complicated procedure, when the evidence now is that clear. Josh Gorand (talk) 00:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Keilana as closing admin

Keilana has been proposed as the closing admin for this move request, as per this discussion. However, her comments on Wikipedia Weekly on YouTube suggest that she strongly favors one side over another in this dispute. Therefore, while I do not doubt Keilana's integrity, I think that it would be more appropriate to find somebody who has not yet commented on this case.

Unfortunately, links to YouTube are blacklisted on Wikipedia, but anyone can find them easily. The first video is titled "Wikipedia Weekly #99: Bradley-Chelsea-Bradley Manning", and the relevant discussion takes place over the first 16 minutes. The second video is titled "Wikipedia Weekly #100 - Century Mark", and the relevant discussion begins after 13 minutes. Edge3 (talk) 00:25, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Note: I just learned how to circumvent the blacklist on YouTube links. Video 1 (first 16 minutes) and Video 2 (after 13 minutes). Edge3 (talk) 00:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

ruhroh. I'm going to have to agree with you - she has publicly come down very hard on the side of Chelsea. The discussion will almost certainly go that way anyway, but in the interest of making this a clean close, we should consider another closer. @David Levy:, what do you think?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of preselected closers. While it may sometimes be needed in extreme cases, (usually triumvirate closes) it should be avoided whenever possible. As far as I know it hasn't blown up as a big issue yet, but giving anyone the ability to choose the closer (and it is often the proponents of the RFC who choose) will likely end in a major controversy one of these days. (no reason to believe it will be this time, but still) Monty845 00:50, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
A fluffernutter is a sandwich! suggested posting to WP:AN. That sounds good to me. __Elaqueate (talk) 00:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
The only issue I see here is that we've already preselected Keilana as the closer, so it's hard for us to cancel that appointment without consensus. Edge3 (talk) 01:05, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
To be clear, this was not an "appointment" - we discussed some possible closing admins who were respected for closing contentious discussions; Keilana's name came up, and she volunteered, which is commendable. However, nothing is set in stone here. bd2412 T 01:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
(e/c) To the extent that we preselected her, we selected her as a closer (to be helped by two others), rather than as the closer. I think it would be appropriate for her to remove herself (or for us to change and not use her), not because she has done anything wrong or would be unable to close the discussion fairly, but simply because this matter is very contentious and would not be helped by the perception that there was procedural impropriety in the close. (Indeed, it might be argued that the first effort to move [[Bradley Manning]] to [[Chelsea Manning]] failed because of the perception that there was procedural impropriety in the move.) -sche (talk) 01:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

At Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Manning move_discussion in progress: uninvolved admins needed, I have asked uninvolved admins to indicate their willingness to participate in a triumvirate to close this move request. -sche (talk) 01:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Being a contributor to The Wikipedia Weekly, The Wikipedia Signpost and so on shouldn't disqualify an editor from closing a discussion. The close is based on policy and consensus, not on the editor's personal views. Also, it doesn't appear that the close will be controversial considering the vote currently being 40–1, so it probably won't matter that much anyway. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

this has nothing to do with contributions to the signpost, it has to do with the fact that she has clearly stated a preference for one side of the discussion on a public YouTube video attached to her Wikipedia screenname, so in a way she is involved. When choosing potential closers we searched for ones who hadn't yet weighed in anywhere on this topic - now that we know she has, we should choose another or ask for another volunteer. Note that I voted for her earlier, but now this has been revealed I don't think it would be proper. Watch the video so you see the strength of her preference.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:34, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm proud of my ability to stay impartial in controversial situations, including the other RfCs I've closed. I had very strong opinions about the Muhammad images and Jerusalem cases, and in fact disagreed with the consensus in one of those situations. I have also been in similar situations with AfDs, where I have ascertained a consensus that I personally disagree with. If there's a consensus that I'm unsuitable, that's fine, but I think that given my ability to read consensus despite my personal feelings and the fact that two other admins would be involved, with their own opinions (let's be honest - no one has no opinion whatsoever on this topic), I would be an acceptable closer. But it's not up to me. Keilana|Parlez ici 01:45, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

But you've already made your opinion known. So if, by some miracle of contraryness, this thing comes to another no consensus and you have to decide, then if you go with Chelsea, you'll be accused of bias, and if you close in favor of Bradley, you'll be accused for overcompensating for the perception of bias. Either way, you're now controversial because of the video.--v/r - TP 02:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
@TParis, maybe it is best if we let arbcom select uninvolved closing admin canadates. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:09, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Keilana seems to be well suited to doing the close and if joined by two others I think it will be fine. Sportfan5000 (talk) 02:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

If you were the last admin alive, I'd have no doubt you would be able to judge the discussion fairly without regard to your personal opinion on the matter. However this isn't the case and your opinion is now known. I didn't watch the video FWIW. My view is that you should recuse as the closer.Two kinds of pork (talk) 03:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Since a few people think I should recuse, I will. That's fine. Keilana|Parlez ici 03:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Object I don't think an editor who curses and calls people bigots who disagree with her opinion on this move (and I favor the move) should come anywhere near to closing it. Actually, I find it amazing she is an admin at all. After watching the video linked to above, I think she's an example of the worst in unobjectivity at wikipedia. Find someone else. μηδείς (talk) 03:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

You know, I'm somehow not convinced this is going to be a contentious close... Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Policy on name changes in general?

Looking through the various applicable policies, I didn't notice anything explicitly addressing how name changes should be dealt with as a general issue (independently of any gender issues this particular one is enmeshed in). If Wikipedia had existed at the time Cassius Clay changed his name to Muhammad Ali, at what point in the process would the change have been applied to the article? Would it happen as soon as he said that this was the name he wanted to be known as, or would it have to wait until more people knew him as that than his former name? *Dan T.* (talk) 02:27, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

It depends on the article and prior precedent. Articles for royalty are often changed immediately upon their assuming a new title, while other articles will have a lag between the name change and the move taking place on Wikipedia. Edge3 (talk) 02:36, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
WP:AT states that when a name changes, you give priority to sources *after* the name change in order to determine the common name (for obvious reasons). That said, we do not always change the article titles after an "official" name changes - Cat Stevens being the most famous example, but Ivory Coast is another well known one. There are many other people who have changed their name, but we generally don't rename article until they are commonly known by that new name. some proposals to tweak this are at the talk page of WP:AT, which would balance subjects preference against commonname - I personally would like to see one of these pass, so that you wouldn't need 51% of sources in order to move to a new name.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Most notable under *name*?

  • I would suggest avoiding such a standard. I think listing people under the names they're most notable under could be deeply, deeply, wrong in certain cases. Not just the disrespect for Chelsea Manning, but also, let's consider the disrespect that would mean for David Reimer, since he was known as "Brenda" at the time of Money's work, and was described as "Joan" in early works. I suspect his case is now better known as the David Reimer case than the John/Joan case, but if it weren't, it would still be wrong to title his article "Joan" or "Brenda"... Ananiujitha (talk) 03:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Lets not go here if the majority of sources are using one name and it is the most notable it should be used. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
      • Virtually all sources mention "Bradley" because that's the common name known and used by readers. There may be a time that "Chelsea" can be used without an explanation that the new preferred name is the same person people known as the common name.

It's incorrect to say that the transition name is currently the common name. Notice that there are sources that use only Bradley and none that use only Chelsea. --DHeyward (talk) 04:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Other comments, archived comments, and comments on the discussion guidelines

Please see Talk:Bradley Manning/October 2013 move request/Comments unrelated to evidence. Thank you!

Older discussion on the sources only

Older discussion on the sources only

Time

In this blog from fair.org Peter Hart quotes a Time magazine piece dated 30 September 2013 "Unchecked Aggression" by Mark Thompson. The graphic provided in the blog and the quote use "Bradley" exclusively (the blog uses Manning while "Time" uses "Bradley"). The quote is: "Here is the world's worst-kept secret: The military's security-clearance system is utterly, tragically broken. Army Major Nidal Hasan, armed with a secret clearance and an FN 5.7 semiautomatic pistol, showed warning signs well before he killed 13 people at Fort Hood in 2009. Army Private First Class Bradley Manning, arrested in 2010, and NSA contractor Edward Snowden, a fugitive since June, had top-secret clearances before they absconded with the nation's secrets and shared them with the world." The graphic provided is captioned "Bradley Manning." I can't get past the paywall at "Time" to check it though. --DHeyward (talk) 02:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

AP

AP has a number of hits across all major sources with this title "'Today' show rebooting with Daly, studio revamp" written by AP reporter David Bauder. Definitely "Bradley Manning" and even using "avoided" terms. Google the title for a ton of hits that are all the same but sourced to AP. Here is one (12 September 2013) but it's also hosted at AP.org though it wouldn't load.

Manning passage:

"Today" is devoting itself to a mission statement that involves substance, making connections with viewers and offering people who watch something uplifting, Turness said. She pointed to stories in recent weeks involving Bradley Manning's sex change, interrogation footage of Cleveland kidnapper Ariel Castro and Matt Lauer's interviews with Paula Deen and Alex Rodriguez's lawyer.

--DHeyward (talk) 02:28, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Given AP has made a statement about their editorial policy here, and this really sounds like a transcription of a quote from a Today host that used Bradley, and the fact that this is a TV blog, I'd still be inclined to leave AP at "Chelsea" for now.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:47, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
They can say their editorial policy is anything they like, but this isn't a blog. Either it's the show and reporter that broke the "Bradley is Chelsea Manning" story on this show, or it's an AP reporter. Both are notables.
I can now access AP and confirmed it is an AP new article released to be republished by all their subscribers (and Google confirms they did): http://bigstory.ap.org/article/carson-daly-join-today-newly-created-role (12 September 2013). It's hosted by AP in their article section and has a tremendous number of reprints with verbatim Manning reference "Bradley Manning's sex change". It's in news space as an article. Where their subscribers put it, I can't tell but the number of reprints is massive and I haven't seen a correction or retraction. The reporter is here David Bauder contributions. There is an "Editors Note" at the bottom implying there is editorial oversight. It said nothing about the Manning reference. --DHeyward (talk) 04:10, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

US Finance Post / aka / US Financial Post / aka / Finance Post

Does anyone want to vouch for the editorial oversight of this website? DHeyward wants to include them as a reputable source. He has reverted their deletion.

  • It's corporate address and telephone number are also currently shared by Excel Living.com, Sophia's Collections Gifts, Smart Dreams Inc., "bgp.he.net/dns/thedailycentral.com", and Florida Termking Senior Life Insurance. The address in Pflugerville, Texas is above a Sushi Restaurant.
  • Their terms of service claim that the (multi-newspaper-and-television-station-owning) Scripps news service is one of its subsidiaries. It looks like it's the same TOS as Scripps.com, except the first two names have been changed. Scripps (the publicly traded company) doesn't seem to admit in any of their financial filings that they are owned by Florida Termking Insurance or US Finance Post/US Financial Post. I would love to see any evidence outside of a copy-and-pasted terms of service that Scripps has anything to do with this site at all.
  • The website is given high reliability ratings by Adsense-scam "verification" sites, which are themselves, proven scams which give high ratings to the dodgiest sites. __Elaqueate (talk) 13:04, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
  • The reason for the heading here is that the website doesn't use their own name consistently on their web page.
  • An example of their standard of journalism: "News has become an essential part of the day for every aware and educated citizen. Right from being serious & entertaining, new & old, fast paced update to in-depth analysis, the craving to remain updated and ahead in life is satisfied by knowing what’s happening in and around the society and world at large." __Elaqueate (talk) 19:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I can no longer find the reference from Scripps or perhaps misread it. It appears they have the listed the same statutory agent in the TOS which is part of the original reason for affiliation. Absent no other verification, I can't justify their inclusion. Listing the Scripps stautory agent appears to be a poor copyright violation if it's not legitimate. I am also notifying Scripps if they wish to take action (or affirm relationship) but it appears dubious at this point. --DHeyward (talk) 19:58, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Good work on notifying Scripps. There are a whole class of bogus news sites which hire people minimum wage to rewrite AP stories in attempt to click-fraud Google AdSense. I'm not specifically saying this site is necessarily one of them, of course. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Break-out of sources

We have "Chelsea" and "Bradley" but these are very broad. Post-announcement is probably the only relevant ones to consider for changing. I am more concerned that tangential references to Manning in articles are being handled differently than articles generated by actions of his lawyer (i.e. interviews with Coombs regarding her pardon request or her current condition given last week). For example stories about Snowden often mention Manning and ignore style guidelines for her gender and name reference. Articles about the Navy yard shooter that mention Manning w.r.t. security clearances, too. There was even a widely carried AP article I mentioned previously about the Today show that highlighted the Coombs interview in reference to how the interview was a coup and marked a change to the show. They ignored the AP styleguide and statement. The Sept 30 Time magazine piece is another example. I'd almost want to see "Articles quoting Coombs" vs. "Articles not quoting Coombs" to see if the references are to maintain access to a source or editorially enforced MOS's. There's a non-random dichotomy of use that's influenced by whether Coombs' announcements or interviews are in the current news cycle or not and it appears a stronger indicator (to me at least) than MOS. Thoughts? --DHeyward (talk) 07:29, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

We aren't counting direct quotes from Coombs. Everything else is speculation about motives behind use. We list many tangential references here and actually give them as much weight here as pieces about Manning specifically. AP has used Chelsea overwhelmingly, including tangential references, with the one tangential exception you mention. There is no empirical test that proves a source used "Chelsea" because they wanted to "maintain access to a source". __Elaqueate (talk) 13:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest that moving a bunch of sources that have eight Chelsea uses and one Bradley use into the "Undecided" column is not a useful thing to do. Many of the Chelsea Manning sources haven't been updated with every instance from the last month because we were only looking at significant changes. I don't think anyone thought that someone would consider AP and the New York Times being "undecided" at this point. If we give little weight to what "undecided" reasonably means, it would also have the effect of moving more sources that have last used Bradley, but have used Chelsea, into undecided, sources such as Vanity Fair, the Wall Street Journal, World Socialist Web Site, etc. __Elaqueate (talk) 19:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
My point was that coverage that is primarily about CM (i.e. the spike last week due to Coombs talking about Chelsea adjusting and making friends and his tour of the facility) vs. coverage that mentions Manning but isn't specifically about her (i.e. both AP and NYTimes have independent stories that use BM despite their MOS.) This was noted above by OWK above and is really the bulk of a lot of the BM-only since announcement. Simply listing CM vs. BM this close around the announcement may not ultimately be how she is referred to in reliable sources as the news cycle transfers coverage as a human interest story generated to subsequent stories on broader issues. We don't have to speculate why, but noting that is occurring might be good a year from now or two years from now if she remains in the news as a reference rather than the subject and the reporters are writing about the leak rather than the person. For example, a google news search of "Snowden Bradley Manning -chelsea" for the last 30 days list a number of hits (can't evaluate them all for how they relate). But "Coombs Bradley Manning -chelsea" over the same time period yields nearly 0 english language sources. The Snowden affair isn't related to Manning except through their notable actions so conceivably there are more tangential references that link actions but aren't primarily Manning articles. I don't think that's an irrelevant dichotomy that shouldn't go unnoticed. --DHeyward (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Google searches that use "-Chelsea" (to eliminate even a single mention of "Chelsea") from the last month get some amount of unknown-quality origin or no results. I don't think I'd lean too hard on that kind of research. All you seem to have found is an article about the changing of the Today Show TV set that has a passing mention of "Bradley Manning" at the end of the article that made its way into two prominently Chelsea-using sources. In other sources, there are plenty of example of Chelsea being used in both Chelsea-specific and non-Chelsea stories, and we have sources under the Bradley column that only use Bradley in a very tangential way. I don't know how significant your tailored-to-not-include-even-a-single-mention-of-Chelsea unexamined-for-quality sources are here. And as for "may not ultimately be", well, that sounds like crystal balling. People also predicted nobody would change to Chelsea at all for future stories, and that's not the case now. __Elaqueate (talk) 21:13, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I think it would be perfectly reasonable to do another move request in a year's time, especially once several news cycles have passed, to see if "Chelsea" has stuck. It's possible, like John Mark Karr, that the new name won't stick, and even sources which were first to switch will go back to what is most likely to be recognized by their readers. But for now, I think we should lean on preponderance - if a source has 8 Chelseas and one Bradley, I wouldn't use that to switch them to the undecided column.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
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