Talk:Donald Trump

Highlighted open discussions

• #Poll on archiving delay
• #RfC: "perceived" or "characterized" as racist

Current consensus

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
[[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item [n]
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to .

01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. Do not add web archives to cited sources which are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020) (Superseded by RfC Aug 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (October 2021)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

"Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist."

Since this is listed above in the current consensus section, I'm not going to attempt to change this without a discussion, but I think we should change the word from "perceived" to "characterized". It's very difficult to know what someone actually perceives, but it's certainly true that reliable sources have characterized some of his statements as racially charged or racist. Does anyone have a problem with this one-word change? Rreagan007 (talk) 21:16, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

May God have mercy upon your soul. PackMecEng (talk) 21:21, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Good catch Rreagan007. Seems like a good idea to me. Gandydancer (talk) 21:34, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

I'll do you one better: let's just remove "perceived as". That would be factual, verifiable, and a win-win.- MrX 🖋 21:40, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

No: that would substantially change the meaning of the phrase, and thus go against the nuanced RfC consensus. — JFG ^talk 08:38, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that was kind of the point, otherwise why are we having this discussion?- MrX 🖋 21:33, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

"Characterized" is better, but not beholden to that. Many do "perceive" his comments as racially charged and or simply racist. I personally would not "characterize" it as that but I'm not a reliable source.--MONGO (talk) 21:44, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, "characterized" is more factual than "perceived". — JFG ^talk 08:37, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

• "Perceived" is better because it is the perception that matters, not the characterization. "Characterized" is what you would say if you didn't take the characterization seriously for whatever reason. zzz (talk) 11:30, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Support "characterized". Per OP, what we can see is more important than what we think we can infer. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:59, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

• No, it should remain as "perceived" per our original discussion. "Characterized" would be fine if we were talking about how a single reliable source reported it; however, we were talking about a preponderance of reliable sources. An overwhelming number of these sources described Trump's comments and actions as racially charged or racist, so being the good little Wikipedians that we are we watered it down to "perceived". Using "characterized" would give the false impression this wasn't a prevailing view. I stridently object to this proposed change. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:10, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I fail to see how using the verb "characterized" would somehow give a "false impression this wasn't a prevailing view." Anything we write in the lead section is supposed to reflect the prevailing WP:DUE descriptions of the subject matter in RS, and we can state clearly that a lot of sources did characterize Trump's utterances as "racially charged" or plain racist. If you'll allow me to follow your "good little Wikipedians" trope, "characterized" is a lot less watered-down than "perceived". It also fits with the RfC outcome, in which the closer stated: feel free to tweak the wording, as necessary by normal t/p discourse. In the followup to that RfC, you yourself suggested to replace "perceived as" with "described as",[1] and that's almost synonymous with "characterized". — JFG ^talk 13:45, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Your last point is a strong one, in my opinion. Merriam-Webster lists "describe" as a synonym for "characterize". While their synonyms lists often seem loose and lacking in nuance, I think the definition (entry 1) suggests that the two words are pretty much interchangeable for this purpose, "characterize" being a fancier word for "describe" in this context. As you know from experience (phenomenon), I'm always opposed to applying connotations not supported by the dictionary. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:05, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Synonyms for perceived: look on, view, regard, consider, think of, judge, deem, appraise, assess, adjudge, figure (out), size up, value, rate, suppose, think, sum up, weigh up

"he was perceived as too negative"

Or: "he was characterized as too negative"

I'd say that "perceived" suggests opinions that may not actually be correct while "characterized" suggests a more grounded summation. I think...:=) Gandydancer (talk) 13:35, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

• Just to put a more concrete example on the differences between "perceived" and "characterized". "Perceive" seems to be a more subjective, individual act, whereas "characterized" is more of an objective, collective term. You would never say "reliable sources perceive Trumps statements as racist", but you would say "reliable sources characterize Trumps statements as racist". Rreagan007 (talk) 19:42, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

  No, that's not what is meant by "perceived" in the way it is used. It is intended to briefly state that reliable sources report that Trump's actions and comments have been perceived by most people to have been racist and/or racially charged, not perceived by reliable sources. It's the perception of the people, not the perception of the media. That's why "characterized" won't work, because that would refer to how the media is describing Trump. I think people in this thread are confused by who is doing the perceiving/characterizing, and perhaps that is the true failure of the sentence in its current form. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:49, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

  But how do reliable sources know what most people actually perceive? Perception is a subjective judgment, and the only person who truly knows how they are perceiving things is the person doing the perceiving. Someone writing about the perceptions of people other than himself would never be able to truly know what those other people were perceiving. Also, can you provide the reliable sources that say most people perceive his comments to be racist? Rreagan007 (talk) 21:17, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

  It is not for us to decide how reliable sources know. It is enough that reliable sources say they know. If we are going to second guess reliable sources, Wikipedia is basically dead as a useful project. And no, I'm not going to go back and look up all the reliable sources because this was done already when a consensus formed around the current language. If you want to change that consensus, it is incumbent upon you to provide sources that back up that change. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:28, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

  But the problem is that it is impossible for reliable sources to know what the subjective perceptions of other people actually are, because there is no way to independently verify the thoughts of another person. So if you still want to use "perceived" we would have to change the wording to something like "Many of his comments and actions have been claimed to have been perceived as racially charged or racist." Rreagan007 (talk) 21:42, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

  You're missing the point entirely. As Wikipedian's we must assume the reliable sources have reported these perceptions as fact (presumably through polling, etc.) and not try to second guess them. If we try to interpret these sources ourselves, putting in qualifiers like "claimed" in there to satisfy editors unhappy with reliable sources, we are engaging in original research. I understand some editors do not like the "mainstream media" from where most of our reliable sources come from, but that is just too bad because Wikipedia relies on those sources almost entirely. If you want to question the reporting of such sources, perhaps this isn't the right project for you. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:48, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

That's a valid point in epistemology, but ordinary language operates under the assumption that the thoughts of other people are knowable to some degree. Philosophers will tell you that we have no way to verify anything, since all we have access to are our own perceptions. TFD (talk) 22:40, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Scjessey: I seriously doubt anybody could produce evidence that the preponderance of reliable sources support "perceived" to the exclusion of other words like "described" and "characterized". The fact is that "trying to interpret these sources ourselves" is what we all do, routinely, when it comes to the choice of specific nuanced words to use in paraphrasing those sources. Your own reasoning is loaded with what you call original research. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:41, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

(Re-indenting) I'm sorry, maybe I missed it, but is there a specific suggestion for a change in wording here? Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 22:34, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, change from "Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist." to "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." Rreagan007 (talk) 20:59, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree that “characterized” is a more accurate statement. Tycoon24 (talk) 17:38, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

@Tycoon24: See the open RfC on this below. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:51, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

No obvious consensus here. I'll start an RfC. — JFG ^talk 06:21, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Mueller report in the lead

I love how the last paragraph was removed despite the fact that the vote was a tie. Please restore it, and make sure to reflect the recently released Mueller report because now that it's been established without a shadow of a doubt that Trump attempted to obstruct justice, it would be irresponsible for a summary of his presidency to not reflect that. 50.69.26.77 (talk) 15:13, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

It has already been restored.[2] ―Mandruss ☎ 15:16, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

My mistake - I got a little confused and thought this discussion pertained to mention of the Mueller investigation. Why was that removed? it seems important to include at least a reference to it, and what Mueller was able to find regarding Trump's conduct in regards to the investigation 50.69.26.77 (talk) 15:18, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I assume you're referring to this removal. See that edit summary for the rationale. Since this is completely off-topic here, I'm making it a separate thread. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:22, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't particularly find that rationale sufficient to warrant leaving such a crucial moment in the Trump presidency to be left out. Especially considering this President has now been discovered to have openly obstructed justice and attempted to interfere with an ongoing investigation according to Bob Mueller, it must be reflected in the summary. 50.69.20.91 (talk) 14:36, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

I disagree, obviously. Fundamentals of Wikipedia editing (NOTNEWS, no deadline, lead summarizes body, etc.) always trump editors' desire to get the "truth" about Trump into the lead of this article, where it will enjoy maximum visibility, NOW. I'm always skeptical of editors claiming urgency to include content. Others may differ, and I defer to consensus, but as of now yours is the only objection to an edit made five days ago. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:07, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Again - if that were the case then why include mentions of Watergate into Nixon's page? Because it was a very significant moment that defined his presidency. This is too important to leave out - and if you disagree, that's fine - but there should be a poll. Any harm in that or is it really important to you not to have the obstruction of justice mentioned in the headline?

Edit: It wouldn't take a particularly long paragraph either. I just feel it's relevant to note that there was an investigation and Bob Mueller had determined that Trump, during the course of the probe - attempted to interfere with the investigation but could not confirm that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians either. I would argue that it's important to note it especially considering the misinformation floating around about the investigation, this would allow readers unfamiliar with the report's findings to easily access the basic summary of it, which is honestly what a summary page is intended for in the first place - to summarize the facts, and as it stands these facts are incredibly important. 50.69.20.91 (talk) 17:43, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

You seem intelligent enough. I'm having trouble understanding why you're having so much trouble understanding me. The edit summary and my comments have been about process, not content. I don't care a whit if the content gets into the lead—that is, aside from my opinion that the lead devotes too much space to his presidency, which has gained no traction—what I care about is that it gets done in the right way, and with no sense of urgency (this is an encyclopedia, not a news summary service). Seven days have now passed, so my "Step 1" is at least minimally complete and I'm willing to concede the second week. Step 2: Decide what related content to include in the body, at the end of Donald Trump#Special Counsel investigation. This must come before lead content because lead summarizes body—we have to know what we're summarizing before we can decide how to summarize it. That section currently ends at: "On April 18, 2019, a redacted version of the final Mueller Report was released to the public." and it obviously needs more. So we can get started on Step 2, and I generally leave that kind of thing to others who are better at it. If you feel up to it, feel free to start discussion about that, preferably separately. Once we have body content that is somewhat stable, we can move on to Step 3: what, if anything, to put in the lead. I wouldn't be at all surprised or upset if it took us 4–6 more weeks to complete the process. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:51, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

My mistake, I now see your new thread attempting to combine steps 2 and 3. Had I known you weren't waiting for a response, I wouldn't have spent 30 minutes of my time writing one. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:21, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

"Relationship with the press" section

I changed "Relationship with the press" to "Relationship with the media" to match the further information link of that section:

Further information: Presidency of Donald Trump § Relationship with the media

but it was reverted. I think "media" is probably the better term here, since it seems to be the more modern term and "press" seems more archaic, though both are still regularly used. Regardless, we should be consistent, so either this section heading should be changed to "media" or the one over on the Presidency article should be changed to "press". Rreagan007 (talk) 17:06, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

I prefer 'press' because it's more specific, and carries an encyclopedic tone. "The media" is a more casual term, and can be interpreted broader that we intend in this article. For example, The Apprentice was part of the media, yet Trump's relationship with that media was favorable until they booted him.- MrX 🖋 17:41, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

"Press" does seem to be somewhat specific of a reference to the news media as opposed to the entertainment media. Both of these sections seem to be mainly focused around the news media, so either "press" or "news media" would probably work. I'm fine with either, but as I said the section headings should be consistent across both articles. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:57, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

"Press" makes more sense, and the section heading in Presidency of Donald Trump should be changed to match. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:29, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

"Press" is obviously kosher here. Call a spade a spade. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 22:38, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

This change has been made in both places. The next question is whether this article's other 10+ occurrences of "media" that really mean "press" should also be changed. Probably not that important, and #Current consensus #35 would have be re-consensused, but I just thought I'd point that out. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:43, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

"Press" and "news media" or "media" are more-or-less interchangeable terms. I don't think changing every instance of "media" to "press" in really necessary, and would probably make the article sound repetitive. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:09, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Archiving

Given the cumulative effect of more recent actions in the Trump presidency, with slower policy changes and unfolding coverage (and that recent events haven't been a constant barrage of Tweets and scandals like it was a few months ago), perhaps we should extend the archiving past seven days. That's a ridiculously short time for a talk page discussion. I reverted a new editors reversion and then reversal of their edit to Sigmabot because I thought it was in error. I understand why a week might have been more appropriate before when coverage was based on the 24 hour news cycle and their reacting to Trump's statements, but it seems to be cutting off relevant discussions now. Can we extend the archiving parameters? Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 03:22, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

That parameter is not the length duration of the discussion but rather the amount of time a thread must be idle before it can be archived. There is no limit on the length duration of a discussion if it continues to receive new comments. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:28, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm well aware. That's why I mentioned the word "days". And various measurements of time throughout. I was asking if it was prudent to extend it beyond seven. It sort of seems like you just read part of the first sentence, and then the last. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 08:10, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

That's why I mentioned the word "days". Right, "days" was my intent. I edited my comment since it may have been unclear. I see no need for more than 7 days idle time before archival, but that may be appropriate after Trump leaves office and this page becomes less active. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:20, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

It's true that the pace of discussion has slowed down considerably, even with the barrage of recent news about the Mueller report. I'll switch to 14 days and we'll see how well that works. Stale threads can still be archived manually. — JFG ^talk 16:48, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

No can do without consensus, per #Current consensus item 13. And we never archive stale threads manually, we only archive closed threads manually (after 24 hours) per that same consensus item. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:57, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the reminder. Let's start a poll then. (I think a formal 30-day RfC would be overkill.) — JFG ^talk 17:37, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Poll on archiving delay

Should the automatic archiving delay be extended from 7 days to 14 days? — JFG ^talk 17:37, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

• Yes – Volume of discussion has diminished significantly since the 7-day rule was implemented back in January 2017. — JFG ^talk 17:37, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
• No unless someone can point to a few discussions that have been auto-archived prematurely (excluding RfCs where nobody thought to add a {{DNAU}}) (I don't recall any). Otherwise, it's a solution without a problem. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:45, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
• No - 7 days is perfectly fine. If a thread on this busy talk page hasn't been added to for more than 7 days, it is stale. The only possible exception would be RfCs, and these can easily be prevented from being archived. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:38, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
• No I agree with Mandruss. Also, this talk page is a very busy place. Extending the delay will cause old discussions to quickly pile up, causing the talk page to become far too long. Mgasparin (talk) 23:53, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
• Yes. Perhaps that's not surprising given that I was the original proposer, but I cast this !vote with a caveat: We don't need to use one of the seven day increment parameters. That's just boilerplate. I'd suggest just giving discussions a few more days than seven, as people are busy with things in their "real lives", and there's no deadline for discussion... Though it's always a bit iffy reviving conversations from the archives, as we all know. To that end, I'd amend this to TEN days, though I'm okay with any change that allows for more interested editors to weigh in, especially those who may not frequent this topic area. (NOTE: I'll note that there's a bit more traffic since the Mueller Report was released, but I still think we do ourselves a disservice to bury salient discussions; I'd argue that the fact that there are a few simultaneous discussion threads may be all the more reason for the allowance of more time). Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 17:37, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  A good way to bury salient discussions: Keep discussions on this page longer than experience shows is needed, thereby significantly increasing the size of the table of contents. Again, don't fix what ain't broke, don't solve problems that haven't occurred. Besides, in the extremely rare case that someone wants to continue a recently-archived discussion, they don't have to restore it from archive. They can simply start a new thread and link to the archived one. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:54, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Wharton School

It seems like in every other Wikipedia article for people who have Wharton undergraduate degrees, the University of Pennsylvania is listed in the Education section. (See the article for Rod Rosenstein for example.) It makes no sense to list the specific undergraduate school there. For Rex Tillerson for example, University of Texas is listed rather than the Cockrell School of Engineering.

Even for people like Supreme Court justices who went to graduate schools, Harvard University or Yale University is listed rather than Harvard Law School or Yale Law School.

Is there any reason for Trump, the Wharton School, only one undergraduate school is listed instead of the University of Pennsylvania? This seems inconsistent with every other Wikipedia bio page. Can we change it to University of Pennsylvania? Marquis de Faux (talk) 04:31, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

For previous related discussions, see Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 56#Universities in infobox and Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 58#Reopening discussion about 'Universities in infobox' (#Current consensus 18). However, as far as I can tell neither focused on the school vs university. --DannyS712 (talk) 04:41, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

It seems like in every other Wikipedia article for people who have Wharton undergraduate degrees, the University of Pennsylvania is listed in the Education section. For examples disproving that perception, see Jack Abraham — Edward Lametek Adamu — T. Coleman Andrews Jr. — Dave Asprey. That's just the A's and I shouldn't need to go through the entire alphabet to make the point. There will never be wide agreement on how this should be treated, so site-wide consistency is not going to be a worthwhile pursuit. From a reader perspective, there is little practical need for site-wide consistency on that. We have a long-standing consensus for this article at #Current consensus item 18, and, unless you have better arguments than "it makes no sense" and "these cherry-picked articles do it differently", I think this is better left alone.

DannyS712, see Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 56#Show UPenn, Wharton, both, or combined as one link? (and note that the "UPenn" option, which is what the OP proposes, received zero support there). ―Mandruss ☎ 12:16, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

You can read through the lengthy arguments. I think though that what is important is that most people would say he went to Wharton. TFD (talk) 22:42, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

RfC: "perceived" or "characterized" as racist

Should the lead sentence about Trump's purported racism use the verb "perceived", or "characterized"? 07:43, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Please read the preliminary discussion about today's proposed change, the prior RfC that established the current wording (August 2018), and the followup discussion on amendments to the RfC wording. See also yet another earlier thread on racism (February 2018). — JFG ^talk 07:05, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Survey

Please state your preferred verb (perceived or characterized) with a short rationale. Longer arguments should go to the #Discussion section below.

• Characterized, as I believe that this more accurately reflects the preponderance of reliable sources describing Trump's comments as racist. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:15, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized. If someone digs into the sources and figures out how many use one term versus the other, I'd like to know that. However in the absence of such data I prefer "characterized" since its about how Trump's behavior is described by reliable source rather than how it's seen by who knows whom. Everything every politician does and says is perceived a hundred different ways by a hundred different people, so passively saying something is perceived by unidentified people so insignificant as to be not worthy of inclusion. What's significant is how Trump's words and deeds are described by reputable outlets. R2 (bleep) 23:11, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized Knowing what someone else actually perceives is not possible. Reliable sources report what other people have characterized Trumps comments as to them. It's also the case that reliable sources themselves have characterized his statements as racist, so "characterized" works for both reliable sources reporting on others characterizations or on reliable sources doing the characterizing themselves. "Perceived" doesn't work both ways. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:09, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
• Unchanged. What, This again? I think it doesn’t belong in LEAD for a number of reasons previously said, but I suggest de facto be given an edge. Especially with perceived VS characterized having been visited twice within a year, I suggest re-re-re asking the question should be discounted. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:35, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

  @Markbassett: Can you help me find where perceived VS characterized has been visited twice within a year? I don't see any of that in this archive search. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:20, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

User:Mandruss It’s discussed in a lot of places, with the 4 links at top (Feb 2018 to Apr 2019) being good choices, and I especially was looking at the thread above here and the Feb and Aug RFCs in thinking STATUS QUO of prior discussions and long-standing content should rule when there is this not-strong desire for change. One can also search archives for “racist” or “as racist” to find other discussions of ‘described’ (archive 19, 20) and ‘criticized’ (archive 71), ‘perceived as’ and even discussion in (archive 2). CheersMarkbassett (talk) 02:56, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

The only discussions I see on "perceived" vs "characterized" is this discussion and the one just above, of which this discussion is really just a more structured continuation of. So your claim that this particular issue has already been discussed twice in the past year seems misleading to me. Rreagan007 (talk) 07:52, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

• Characterized It's more than a perception, but how a reasonable person would characterize the comments. TFD (talk) 05:12, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
• Characterized – More factual than "perceived". Accurately reflects the prevailing WP:DUE descriptions of the subject matter in RS, which have indeed characterized Trump's utterances as "racially charged" or plain racist. — JFG ^talk 08:28, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
• Perceived (status quo) per Scjessey's comment in the previous discussion. Alternatively, we could drop "perceived as" to reflect the widely held viewpoint of a vast majority of reliable sources. "Characterized" appears to be a sly way to blame the media for bias against Trump, thus it violates WP:NPOV.- MrX 🖋 20:55, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  appears to be a sly way to blame the media – this looks like your own characterization of this proposed change. — JFG ^talk 21:12, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  Or you just perceive it that way. - MrX 🖋 21:51, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  "Perceived" could be characterized as suggesting that the belief bears little connection to reality. It seems to me either qualification (hedge) can be spun in a way that would make one oppose it. Advocating removal of the hedge is one thing, but I don't see why one would assert one spin over the other. That's not to say that this is a pointless issue, necessarily. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:41, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, perceived is less than ideal also. I don't have a better solution that isn't also very wordy.- MrX 🖋 21:51, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

This has already been exhaustively debated over multiple discussions and RfCs, and I just don't understand why we need yet another discussion over what has been stable for a long time now. But since we are having another RfC, why only the binary choice? What about "seen as" or "described as" or other choices? This just hasn't been well thought out, and I think this eagerness to have repeat RfCs over the same thing needs to stop. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:45, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Can you help me find where this has already been exhaustively debated over multiple discussions and RfCs? I don't see any of that in this archive search. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:01, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

As for the binary choice: "Seen as" is interchangeable with "perceived as" in this context. "Described as" is interchangeable with "characterized as" in this context. There is nothing to be gained by adding synonymous options that would only serve to make a consensus harder to reach. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:39, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Mueller report summary in the headline as well as a more indepth description of Mr. Mueller's findings in the Special Counsel section of the article

I would like to propose that we include a small paragraph in the summary of the article that includes reference to Bob Mueller's investigation and findings, as well as a more indepth description of what those findings actually were in the corresponding section of the article. It's already been made apparent that Bill Barr's summary was not an adequate reflection of what the Special Council determined - so I would propose that a few key facts be included.

● Mueller rejects the argument that the president is shielded from obstruction laws.

●Trump, when told of appointment of special counsel Mueller, said: “This is the end of my presidency.”

● “Substantial evidence” supports Comey over Trump in account of Flynn meeting.

●Trump campaign attempted to obtain Hillary Clinton’s private emails.

● Campaign expected to benefit from stolen information released by the Russians.

● Mueller probe spawned 14 other investigations, including two unidentified cases that remain ongoing.

● Putin stepped up outreach to Trump after election.

● Special counsel team concluded Trump intended to obstruct probe in tweeting support for Manafort.

● Mueller appears to kick obstruction question to Congress.

These are all incredibly crucial facts to the investigation that Barr's summary does not reflect - therefore not including any reference to them at all given that these were the findings of special council seems concerning. I'd like to request a poll be done to add reference to these findings. 50.69.20.91 (talk) 17:50, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

• I don't support this idea. An entire paragraph devoted to the Mueller Report, even a short one, would be grossly undue in my view. And I believe it would be literally impossible to cram all of that info into a short paragraph anyway, neutrality issues aside. R2 (bleep) 23:03, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
• Probably the wrong article. Try Presidency_of_Donald_Trump. Or perhaps someone can suggest another of the many. O3000 (talk) 23:50, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
• @R2 Neutrality issues? These are the findings - they should be added to the article. It wouldn't take up that much additional space either so I don't see the merit in that argument, either. Reference to Mr. Mueller determining that Trump actively tried to derail the investigation wouldn't be a difficult task. @Objective3000 I don't see why more indepth reference to the report can't be on both pages? The report is relevant to both. 50.69.20.91 (talk) 03:46, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. At most, LEAD would have either nothing or a line mentioning Special Counsel Investigation happened at most, not a whole para in LEAD and especially not an OR list. And you’re misstating “determined” ... Mueller reported on the investigation, but Barr is by regulation who makes final DOJ determinations. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:45, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment. Mark, with all due respect, "nothing" in the lede would be just as inappropriate, though I agree generally with your reasoning (see my '!vote' below). Just as it was an important part of Clinton's biography, we need to mention it. And the Special Counsel is independent of anything the DOJ does- it's only recently that the changed the way such investigations are handled in that the DOJ has any role whatsoever, and it's still essentially advisory. The only difference in that now Barr could have pursued an indictment, if he had chosen to do so. Special Counsel reports are historically compiled for the benefit of Congress, not the DOJ. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 17:26, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose The article is about Trump, not Mueller. I note the lead to Bill Clinton's article has only one sentence about the accusations made against him and does not even mention the special prosecutor, despite the fact the prosecutor made specific accusations of criminality against him (although he was acquitted in impeachment). TFD (talk) 05:22, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment. I split this from my comment above, as it was more appropriately addressed to you, and I felt it pertinent to comment a bit further there. TFD, while I agree generally, I'd argue that in contrast it should perhaps be given a bit more weight here, if only because Clinton's presidency was rather more eventful (i.e., Camp David Summit and Gaza Disengagement), and that various misconduct allegations have hung over Trump's head since long before he even became President. In this way, it's more analogous to the Nixon biography (though that's still "apples and oranges", and not a good comparison). However, anything more than a brief mention, I agree, would be wildly inappropriate in this article. The problem with the Clinton comparison is that he had two terms, and it's been a couple decades. He has the benefit of time, the determination of history as to how the investigation was later viewed, and several years of other biographical events thereafter. With Trump, we're reporting on current events. It doesn't diminish the weight, but this article will certainly look different twenty years from now, no matter what happens. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 17:11, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Since the Meuller report has just been released, we don't know what lasting historical significance it will have. Right now though, the main points that have received attention is that there is no evidence of conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia, which is what Mueller was investigating. Incidentally, accusations of womanizing against Clinton preceded his presidency. Remember Gennifer Flowers? It comes down to different perspectives. If you hate the Clintons, then the bimbo eruptions take on huge significance. If you believe that Trump is a Russian agent, then you concentrate on that. Nixon btw did far more in office than Clinton did, including normalizing relations with the USSR and China, prosecuting the war in Vietnam, dropping the gold standard, and bringing in wage and price controls. His previous record as congressman, senator, vice president and a leading Republican Party were far more high profile than Clinton's terms as AG and Governor. TFD (talk) 19:12, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
• I would support a sentence about Mueller in the lead.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:15, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
• As Mandruss said in the above section #Mueller report in the lead, we should first update the section dedicated to the Mueller probe in the article body, and then start a discussion about what, if anything, should be added to the lead section. My personal take is that a short summary of the probe is WP:DUE for the lead; this investigation has been the most discussed event of Trump's presidency so far, and we can't sweep it under the rug just because its findings are not as dramatic as expected. (Remember "Mueller time"?) — JFG ^talk 08:24, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
• Conditional Oppose, per much of what's already been said here. An edit with as much detail as you're suggesting is both inappropriate and undue in the lede of straight biography article. I'm pretty much in agreement with what JFG said. The Mueller section in the body needs to be expanded, and a short synopsis-style summary of the probe no longer than a couple of sentences would then be appropriate in the lead, as the Special Counsel Investigation is arguably the most notable aspect of his presidency. And his presidency is now probably what's most notable in his biography. But a blow-by-blow description that you're suggesting is over the top. A whole huge section in the lead of the biography is most certainly UNDUE. As Objective3000 said, this edit request would be more appropriate and salient at the Presidency of Donald Trump article, which is an article about his presidency, and not about the man. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 17:11, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Trim second paragraph in lead

The lead section currently comprises an intro sentence briefly defining the subject and three paragraphs describing his life: the first on Trump's early life and business career, the second on his accession to the presidency, and the third about his actions as U.S. President. Now that we are well into the third year of his first term, I believe that the second paragraph has reached undue proportions compared to the rest of the biography. I would therefore suggest to trim it thus.

Current version

Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. His campaign received extensive free media coverage. Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. Trump was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. He became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency, the first without prior military or government service, and the fifth to have won the election despite having lost the popular vote. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist.

Proposed trim

Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. He was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, although he lost the popular vote. Trump became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service. His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. He made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist.

Rationale to keep or remove each sentence

• Keep Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries. This was the widest field of Republican candidates ever, and Trump used to be a Democrat. He encountered perhaps more opposition from within the Republican party as from the Democratic candidates. Even after he became the nominee, the Never Trump movement continued until and beyond election day.
• Remove His campaign received extensive free media coverage. All presidential campaigns do, so what was exceptional this time? On the one hand, the media gave him a lot of airtime, on the other hand most of their coverage was negative. There's not much to conclude in terms of unusual influence of "free media" on voters.
• Keep Commentators described his political positions as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. That sounds like a fair and concise summary of his "MAGA" campaign platform.
• Keep He made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. That's a notable characteristic of his campaign rhetoric, of his prior life story touting "truthful hyperbole", and of his ongoing vagaries with the truth. Because it does not apply to the campaign only, I moved this to the end of the paragraph, before the sentence on racially-charged statements.
• Remove The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. That's too much detail for the lead, and is partly opinion. The previous sentence says enough about false statements; keep details for article body.
• Keep He was elected president in a surprise victory over Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. That's the meat of the paragraph.
• Remove Trump became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency. That's just irrelevant trivia.
• Keep He became the first U.S. president without prior military or government service. That sounds more relevant than his age or his wealth.
• Replace and the fifth to have won the election despite having lost the popular vote by although he lost the popular vote after we mention his victory against Clinton. Keep the footnote that explains the Electoral College and mentions that this situation has occurred five times.
• Keep His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. That's a fact, and we have strong consensus to mention it.
• Keep Many of his comments and actions have been perceived as racially charged or racist. Keep per recent RfC.

Comments welcome. — JFG ^talk 22:43, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I would agree with the changes except for the removal of "The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.", which I am strongly opposed to. This wording enjoys hard-won consensus. It is an important qualifier to the previous sentence.- MrX 🖋 23:21, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I strongly oppose removal of "Trump became the oldest and wealthiest person ever to assume the presidency." These are relevant and important items. I disagree that they are "irrelevant trivia." The Reagan article, for comparison, notes in the lead section that "Reagan was the oldest person to have been elected to a first-term..."; the JFK article states "at age 43, he became the second-youngest man to serve as president (after Theodore Roosevelt), the youngest man to be elected as U.S. president"; the T. Roosevelt article says that he "remains the youngest person to become President of the United States"; the Lincoln article states that Lincoln "grew up on the frontier in a poor family." Neutrality^talk 02:43, 28 April 2019 (UTC)