Talk:Donald Trump

Current consensus

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
[[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item [n]
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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. Do not add web archives to cited sources which are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020) (Superseded by RfC Aug 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (October 2021)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

Potentia of Invalid Edit Revert on Truth Social Floatation

@Mandruss I urge you to revert your edit Thanks Jaymailsays (talk) 03:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

That's an argument? Declined, for the reasons given in my edit summary. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

You offered an invalid opinion, not a reason? It verges on vandalism. Jaymailsays (talk) 06:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh my. Wait for others. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I see nothing invalid about the revert. And be careful with the word "vandalism". It verges on WP:CASTING ASPERSIONS. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

It's excessive detail in his personal bio and belongs in the related article. Also, WP:NOTNEWS. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Excessive?

His wealth increased considerably overnight, at a time when by his own submissions he was unable to raise the original court bond amount and needed a further ten days to provide a much lesser amount. The bullying tactics are surprising, given the importance of Truth Social as an asset, albeit a paper one. Jaymailsays (talk) 14:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Wait a minute. He posted multiple times that he had $500 million in cash at the same time his lawyers said he couldn't afford to pay less than that. And I have no idea who you are claiming is "bullying". As far as this stock, experts say it is not worth anything close to its price, insiders sold shares before it opened, the concept that we would add this to his net worth one day after an IPO makes no sense for an encyclopedia, the variance will be enormous meaning we will be wrong if we don't change it every ten minutes. Just today, it went up 24% and then dropped 9%, and it's still morning. There is no way this number belongs in an encyclopedia at this time. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:57, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:Donald_Trump#Current_consensus #5. We use Trump's net worth evaluation and matching rankings from the Forbes annual list of billionaires. Axios writes that Truth Social "is trading like a meme stock, meaning its market value is completely divorced from its financial reality". It has "far fewer users and less income than any social network that has gone public before. ... Meme stocks like GameStop and AMC that soared during the pandemic-era retail investor bump have since crashed". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Love the way as an amateur you try to explain stock trading. Keep digging, it is very entertaining.

All wealth fluctuates. A fact of life and death. Jaymailsays (talk) 15:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

how bout you try restating your opinion without the pretty blatant personal attack, before it becomes actionable. the strikethrough format would a fitting format to utilize. ValarianB (talk) 18:37, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

The stock has now dropped over 50%. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Trump gets news now for recent wealthy gain

@Mandruss: You reverted me here: [1]. I did not mention the Forbes list, but instead Forbes news source. There are other reliable sources saying the same information about his sudden wealth gain from putting the company that does Truth Social on the stock market.

On March 26th, 2024, Forbes reported that Trumps wealth rose from $2.3 billion to $6.4 billion after Trump Media & Technology Group was put on the stock exchange. Dream Focus 01:03, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

We need to take a longer view look at the stock than just IPO day. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:15, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe the whole point of consensus #5 is to avoid having to track net worth at more than annual frequency. Also WP:NOTNEWS. See similar discussions on this page, here and here. If Forbes reports ~$6B in this year's annual evaluation, we'll certainly update the article to reflect that. Likewise, if it subsequently falls by billions before their 2025 evaluation, we'll certainly over-report it until then. So this methodology can work in Trump's favor or not, depending on which direction the wind blows between annual evaluations, but always in Wikipedia's favor. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:18, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

It still a well covered news event, so it doesn't matter if its included in any ranking or whatnot, this notable event should be included. Dream Focus 02:26, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTNEWS: "While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style." WP:ONUS: "While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included." We have ignored other "well covered" interim net worth changes, and it matters not that this is a big one. Being well-covered doesn't require inclusion, far from it (common misconception that needs to be stamped out). We have a perfectly legitimate local consensus against your rationale on this issue. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

If the 2023 annual list is any indication, Forbes will be publishing their 2024 annual list in April. I have no idea whether they'll use the guesstimates of the day or some sort of average. Whatever it is, we'll update our article accordingly and live with that until Forbes publishes the 2025 annual list (or until a new consensus forms), even if and when the Trump Media stock crashes and burns in the fall. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello! First post! I just wanted to remind everyone that Trump’s net worth is nothing less than the subject of one of his lawsuits -- the one in Manhattan unless I am much mistaken. It is risky to interpret his real wealth in an encyclopedia when the subject is currently being litigated! A disclaimer would not be out of place here if you absolutely must publish a dollar amount certain (I wouldn’t). That’s my 465 ¢. ;) Andicu2 (talk) 05:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

And this, people, is why we wait. Trump’s Net Worth Falls by $1 Billion as His Media Company’s Stock Plunges Zaathras (talk) 01:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense. Its still an import news item that should be included, then updated as necessary. We don't update wealth constantly that keeps fluctuating, but we aren't just mentioning a number, but listing details about a notable event in the person's life. Dream Focus 01:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

(Hint: The word "nonsense" doesn't strengthen an argument.) ―Mandruss ☎ 05:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Which has not aged well, this is why wp:news exists, to stop us from having to update something every week. Slatersteven (talk) 14:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

We are not a newspaper. We are an encyclopedia. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I took a closer look at the source provided by you, i.e., I read the article instead of just the headline. Quote: "Trump’s net worth dropped from $2.5 billion on the 2023 Forbes billionaires list to $2.3 billion on this year’s soon-to-be-released edition, knocking him down more than 200 spots, to No. 1,438." Forbes published the 2024 rankings today and, sure enough, there's Trump at #1,438. I updated the "Wealth" section to reflect that ranking. Kind of an unexpected development but it looks as though Trump will have to suffer through the indignity of being #1,438 for a year. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea whether they'll use the guesstimates of the day or some sort of average. $2.3B "annual" at the same time as $5.9B "real-time" (both "as of 4/2/24"). I guess your question has been answered. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:40, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Sources

Discussion pointer

This talk page is currently under discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Comments. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:59, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Note, this discussion is about our consensus #25 and has been open since January 23 without notifying editors of this article. Sneaky (not by Nikkimaria), but justice ultimately prevails. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:11, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Mandruss I'm confused, you expect to be informed about a discussion that tangentially involved this page, but came to a consensus (the invalid #25) without notifying the editors at WT:CITE? That goes both ways, you know. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:16, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

No, it doesn't go both ways. We don't notify a guideline talk page when we're considering a consensus that would deviate from the guideline. Unlike what you did, that is not a community norm and I've never seen anyone do it. (As I've previously said, you are free to do that if you want to bring in outside voices. But it is not a procedural "community norm".) The essential difference is that changes to an article are discussed at its talk page, not at guideline talk pages. Out of 65 current consensus items, not a one links to discussions off this page (although the linked discussions may link to discussions off this page). And #25 is hardly invalid, as I've thoroughly articulated at WT:CITE. Guidelines are only guidelines and we are allowed to deviate from them (your CONLEVEL claim is completely baseless).

You have done everything except what might change #25—start a discussion about it on this page. When do you plan to drop this stick? ―Mandruss ☎ 22:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Since you can't seem to let go of this CONLEVEL thing, I've now raised it at WP:VPP#CONLEVEL and guidelines. Feel free to go there and lose. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I recommend you stepping away from the page for a bit, you are getting close to crossing WP:NPA over here. Soni (talk) 05:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh my. We seem to interpret NPA differently. Where have I come close to violating it? Certainly not by referring to WP:STICK (sans the shortcut), which is fairly routine. Certainly not by calling an editor's claim "baseless", which is simply a counter-argument. If you want to talk about battleground behavior and disruptive editing, consider unilaterally cancelling a consensus item[2] (this is NOT something subject to BOLD editing) and then edit-warring one's change.[3]

For now, I'll decline your thoughtful recommendation. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:12, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

"Feel free to go there and lose." is arguably a civility thing, depending on where in the world one lives, but not NPA vio. I'll strike that as unessential. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:19, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

NPA isn't exactly the right policy in my opinion. Maybe WP:DBI? The discussion at VPP CITE reeks of sarcasm and unnecessary snark, from both parties. And Feel free to go there and lose is a step too far. Phrases like that show pretty clearly that any potential discussion has preemptively been set up for failure. Cessaune [talk] 07:27, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I see zero sarcasm and unnecessary snark at VPP (yet). Perhaps you meant WT:CITE? ―Mandruss ☎ 07:43, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Yep. Thank you for the correction. Cessaune [talk] 07:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah you're right. I was thinking of WP:civility for that exact line, just mentally mixed up the page names Soni (talk) 10:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Trade war

@Space4Time3Continuum2x: Please don't remove cleanup tags without addressing them; {{repetition}} is a redirect to {{copy edit}}. We've now got the same trade war discussed in multiple subsections, which is confusing for readers. Please pick one and consolidate. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I challenged your edit, and instead of taking your proposed change to the Talk page you added a tag: your edit, my revert, your tagging, my removal. (I don’t get {{repetition}} is a redirect to {{copy edit}}.)

I don't see how we can present Trade without China or China without the trade war. "Trade" focuses on U.S. trade relations, including with China, and on Trump's misunderstanding/misrepresentation, to this day, of how tariffs work:

and launched a trade war with China by sharply increasing tariffs on 818 categories (worth $50 billion) of Chinese goods imported into the U.S.[343] While Trump said that import tariffs are paid by China into the U.S. Treasury, they are paid by American companies that import goods from China.[344]

"China" mentions the trade war among a number of other things:

As president, Trump launched a trade war against China that was widely characterized as a failure

Both have inline links to China–United States trade war — different emphasis, and we don't know that readers will read both subsections. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I probably don't have the whole story here. But, please do not unilaterally place maintenance tags on this article. Please discuss here on the talk page first. And personally, I want to add, please also obtain consensus for placing a maintenance tag on this article. Also, my personal opinion is - since there are many editors involved on this page, a maintenance tag will never (ever) be needed. And adding a tag to this page might be construed as disruptive. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 15:09, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

That's not how maintenance tags work. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

We don't write subsections to stand alone. I've taken a stab at reorganizing the section in a different way to avoid the repetition. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

(Redacted)---Steve Quinn (talk) 15:26, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Taken a stab? While there's a discussion on the Talk page? Kindly self-revert. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

All right, I've done that for the moment. Now do you have a substantive response to that revision? It retains the misunderstanding/misrepresentation component that you felt was important to include, while also addressing some of the oversectioning of the page. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria. I looked at your proposed version of the Foreign policy section. I liked the way you had the more general aspects in the lead paragraphs and had the country specific aspects in each country's subsection. Before the change, the subsection Trade did not seem to fit the subsection organization. Bob K31416 (talk) 17:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Starship paint already told you the purpose of the current structure of the article - what you see as "repetitive." So, now we are the discussion phase and I recommend discussing before editing again. Also, you are on a contentious topic page. That means editing here requires extra care. Please see the WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES template at the top of this page. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 15:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, they are both good. What are we looking for here? Reintegrate the section on "Trade" into the other two sections? What seems to work best? ---Steve Quinn (talk) 20:41, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The current text starts with a section on Trump’s general foreign policy/opinions on relations with other countries: America first, admiration for authoritarian regimes, antagonism towards allies and NATO, lack of consistency and reliability. That’s followed by a subsection devoted to trade, including his incomprehension of how tariffs work, as exemplified by his remarks on the tariffs he imposed on China. The China subsection also has one short clause on the trade war which was the stated cause for the proposed reorganization, ie., to avoid the repetition. IMO, it’s a necessary repetition because China is the U.S.’s largest supplier of goods and its third largest customer.

The proposed text hides Trump’s lack of understanding of tariffs in the subsection on China. It moves the remaining content of the "Trade" subsection in between Trump’s self-description as nationalist and having an America First foreign policy and his actual foreign policy. For some reason that I haven’t figured out yet, it’s also slightly longer than the current text, so streamlining is apparently not an issue. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Space Time, thanks very much for the explanation and the work you put into this. I don't think a change is necessary. I think the "repetition" issue is a non-issue. The original version, as it stands, is the most accurate, even if only by a few sentences. However, if consensus chooses the changed version that you propose, then so be it. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 13:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not the editor proposing reorganization, I, too, want to keep the current version. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The remarks on tariffs could be generalized and moved up. However, the rest of your comment is confusing: if trade is not part of his "actual foreign policy", why is it in the Foreign Policy section at all? It's certainly inextricably tied to the America First piece. As Bob notes, the current organization, in addition to being oversectioning, doesn't fit well. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Space Time never wrote that Trade is not part of Trump's foreign policy, actual or otherwise. The reason for the subsection on Trade is because Trump's view on trade and implementation of that view was very important. In other words, it certainly is part of his foreign policy legacy. Trade is one of the issues that stand out during his presidency.

Especially, I think because of Trump's pugilistic attitude toward China regarding trade, which had a memorable economic impact. I think it is important to emphasize tariffs in a Trade subsection. It fits perfectly well, but more than that - it serves a purpose. I think Nikkimaria's argument is more about ornamentation than function or serving a purpose. Hence repeating a clause is a non-issue. Lastly, Space Time pointed out we don't know which section people will read, so this very miniscule repetition again serves a purpose. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 10:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

You are presenting an excellent rationale for promoting the trade content into the general foreign policy area, given its central importance. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:51, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Current text and proposed reorganization

Current text

Foreign policy Main article: Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration See also: List of international presidential trips made by Donald Trump Trump with the other G7 leaders at the 45th summit in France, 2019 Trump described himself as a "nationalist" and his foreign policy as "America First". His foreign policy was marked by praise and support of populist, neo-nationalist, and authoritarian governments. Hallmarks of foreign relations during Trump's tenure included unpredictability and uncertainty, a lack of consistent policy, and strained and sometimes antagonistic relationships with European allies. He criticized NATO allies and privately suggested on multiple occasions that the U.S. should withdraw from NATO. Trade See also: Trump tariffs Trump withdrew the U.S. from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) negotiations, imposed tariffs on steel and aluminum imports, and launched a trade war with China by sharply increasing tariffs on 818 categories (worth $50 billion) of Chinese goods imported into the U.S. While Trump said that import tariffs are paid by China into the U.S. Treasury, they are paid by American companies that import goods from China. Although he pledged during the campaign to significantly reduce the U.S.'s large trade deficits, the trade deficit in July 2020, during the COVID-19 pandemic, "was the largest monthly deficit since July 2008". Following a 2017–2018 renegotiation, the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA) became effective in July 2020 as the successor to NAFTA. Russia ... China Before and during his presidency, Trump repeatedly accused China of taking unfair advantage of the U.S. As president, Trump launched a trade war against China that was widely characterized as a failure, sanctioned Huawei for alleged ties to Iran, significantly increased visa restrictions on Chinese students and scholars, and classified China as a currency manipulator. Trump also juxtaposed verbal attacks on China with praise of Chinese Communist Party leader Xi Jinping, which was attributed to trade war negotiations. After initially praising China for its handling of COVID-19, he began a campaign of criticism starting in March 2020. Trump said he resisted punishing China for its human rights abuses against ethnic minorities in the Xinjiang region for fear of jeopardizing trade negotiations. In July 2020, the Trump administration imposed sanctions and visa restrictions against senior Chinese officials, in response to expanded mass detention camps holding more than a million of the country's Uyghur minority.</nowiki>

Proposed text

Foreign policy Main article: Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration See also: List of international presidential trips made by Donald Trump and Trump tariffs Trump with the other G7 leaders at the 45th summit in France, 2019 Trump described himself as a "nationalist" and his foreign policy as "America First". He imposed tariffs on steel and aluminum, among other imports; however, the trade deficit in July 2020 "was the largest monthly deficit since July 2008". He also withdrew the U.S. from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) negotiations, and renegotiated the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA, effective July 2020) as the successor to NAFTA. Hallmarks of foreign relations during Trump's tenure included unpredictability and uncertainty, a lack of consistent policy, and strained and sometimes antagonistic relationships with European allies. His foreign policy was marked by praise and support of populist, neo-nationalist, and authoritarian governments. He criticized NATO allies and privately suggested on multiple occasions that the U.S. should withdraw from NATO. Russia ... China Before and during his presidency, Trump repeatedly accused China of taking unfair advantage of the U.S. As president, Trump launched a trade war against China that was widely characterized as a failure, sharply increasing tariffs on Chinese goods imported into the U.S. While Trump said that import tariffs are paid by China into the U.S. Treasury, they are paid by American companies that import goods from China. Trump also juxtaposed verbal attacks on China with praise of Chinese Communist Party leader Xi Jinping, which was attributed to trade war negotiations. Trump sanctioned Huawei for alleged ties to Iran, significantly increased visa restrictions on Chinese students and scholars, and classified China as a currency manipulator. After initially praising China for its handling of COVID-19, he began a campaign of criticism starting in March 2020. Trump said he resisted punishing China for its human rights abuses against ethnic minorities in the Xinjiang region for fear of jeopardizing trade negotiations. In July 2020, the Trump administration imposed sanctions and visa restrictions against senior Chinese officials, in response to expanded mass detention camps holding more than a million of the country's Uyghur minority.

I haven't had the time to compare them. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:22, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Sources

Discussion at Village Pump

started by the same editor as the Talk:Donald_Trump#Discussion_pointer January discussion, also without notifying editors on this page: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#WP:PEIS, resulting in a couple of edits on the main page that added 6,000 bytes (Reduce WP:PEIS and WP:PEIS improvements from WP:VPT courtesy of User:Ahecht). I haven't a clue what the alleged improvement is supposed to be or do. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The PEIS reduction continues. Where do I find the WP guideline on adding #invoke:cite ...| (<ref>{{'''#invoke:cite news|'''|last= |first= |url= |title= |work=[[ ]]|date= |access-date= }}</ref>) to citations? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I doubt such a guideline exists, specific to cites. Someone might know of something about #invoke in general. The point is that it does reduce PEIS (which has a technical limit that has been a problem at this article) at the cost of an increase in file size (which doesn't). I and Nikkimaria reverted the bold edits because we feel they are premature. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:29, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Splitting this article

Right now the article is extremely long, a lot of which does not need to be there. I think it might be good to discuss which sections need to be trimmed and split off.

For example, the Presidency section is nearly half the page, and clearly does not all need to be here. There is a separate Presidency of Donald Trump article. This article should not repeat all the points there. We should try to summarise them further Soni (talk) 19:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Izno, Novem Linguae, Locke Cole, and ActivelyDisinterested: - Pinging everyone who discussed adjacent things in the VPT discussion Soni (talk) 19:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• I am still of the opinion that 99% of the presidency stuff should be removed in favor of a summary style section and hatnote link to the main presidency article. That alone will solve the problem. No one should be allowed to add content to that section here. They should be reverted and directed to the main presidency article. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:33, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  This would be great to do ...have not been able to load the page on my phone in almost a year.... simply too big and times out. This happens to me with articles that are over 15000 words and or over 900 kB of sources and or 25 plus images.... Combining all these makes it impossible load. That said on my PC everything works just fine and looks good. Moxy🍁 20:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  You may need a new phone with more capacity. I have no problem with any articles on my Samsung Galaxy S21 5G 128GB. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:33, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  I do have a better phone....but use an old one to see what will be accessible for people with older phones. The vast majority of the world has phones older then 8 years old. All those phones that Americans turn in for an upgrade get recycled and used somewhere in the world. Our goal is to make things accessible to the vast majority of people not just Americans with the newest technology..... that's why we have size limits. Moxy🍁 20:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  Most readers are not on desktops, and there proportion bof all readers is only going to increase. Also depending on where they are from they may not have or be unable to access the most modern equipment. The articles suffers heavily from "It works ok for me". -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think this section is probably the lowest-hanging fruit, yes. If you look at the Template:Section lengths above, the 4 years of his presidency (out of his 78 years of life, ~5%) is 50% of the current wikitext. Izno (talk) 20:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Considering that he may become the 47th US president on 20 January 2025. His BLP will certainly become even longer. GoodDay (talk) 20:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I trimmed the section a bit, but we should probably trim it further. I might make some more BOLD removals. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Honestly I prefer just going a bit more BOLD and using Template:Excerpt style excerpts sourced directly from the Presidency lede. If 99% of the article needs to be trimmed, iterative removal can only go so far. I think that's what @Valjean said above as well, but maybe they were saying something different with a "summary style". Soni (talk) 22:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we have to face the fact that Trump has had a very full and varied life, and we editors will always disagree about what the highlights are. That said, give trimming a go.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Support dramatic trimming over splitting. Way too much of the article is excessive detail for a one-page account of a 77-year life. This is not a 400-page book, but many editors seem to think it is. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:30, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

We have trimmed considerably, or we would still be at just below 500,000 bytes despite having added 30,000 bytes since the trim. As for making room for new content just in case TFG is elected again, let's cross that bridge when we get to it. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 09:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe what the other 5-10 editors are saying is that the current trims are just not enough. The article has significant load problems on older devices already, there are sections much longer than even other comparable pages, and a lot of it would benefit from summarising further. Soni (talk) 09:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

"Trimming" is perhaps the wrong word for what I have in mind. I tried "dramatic trimming", but maybe "gutting". Post-2014. Summary style. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Complicating this is the fact that nothing can be removed that's mentioned in the lead. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:05, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Any suggestions for the post-2014 gutting that wouldn't involve white-washing, e.g., banning authoritarian actions such as forcibly removing lawful and peaceful demonstrators for a photo-op with a Bible; pardoning family, cronies, and people recommended by cronies and celebrities; considering two of the pardoned felons (Manafort and Stone) for campaign positions (We do not need to list who the 5 people were)? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:29, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I think you're conflating "Don't list every event/action that happened" with whitewashing. You do not need every single thing Trump did to be mentioned here to make an accurate summary that also lists things in more depth. In fact, I'd argue that listing nearly everything is more "white-washy" simply because the most pertinent things are "drowned out". Is removing peaceful protesters notable? Sure. For Trump, is it of equal importance as Jan 6? Definitely not.

Focus on scholarly consensus and a selection of the "most notable" things Trump did in his presidency. People who want to learn about these in more depth can go to subarticles, but the article must gut out most of the current detailing Soni (talk) 11:38, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

It isn't whitewashing, it is summarizing. All of the info would be kept on the pages about those specific topics. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:53, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Why wouldn't we be able to remove things mentioned in the lead? —Locke Cole • t • c 09:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

We can cut the president stuff, as we have an article on that. Slatersteven (talk) 11:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Better summarisation and directing readers to articles that cover the specific details in full is definitely the way to go. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I don’t get why size is (again) such a pressing matter for this article (well, actually I do — Village Pump) when Presidency of Donald Trump is much larger. It currently has 533,000 bytes and 907 citations, and there's been no discussion about its size in four years. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

That other articles are also in a bad state isn't an argument to not do anything about this article. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Anything that large should probably also be reduced in size, but that one does not have as many sub-articles. No individual person should have a page this long. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Half-joking, half serious: make only section headings with {{Main}}. Zero prose. Just sections and hatnotes. SWinxy (talk) 06:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Presidency draft page

See also: Wikipedia:Summary style

Most editors seem to agree on Presidency section needing severe to very severe cuts. So I have created Draft:Donald_Trump/Presidency where we can collaborate on the Presidency section without affecting the current article's stability. I started off with a simple use of Template:Excerpt because that would cut things down to a reasonable size while keeping it easy to maintain. Either way, once we have a reasonable draft, we should replace the entire Presidency section with it. Soni (talk) 04:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

We already have Presidency of Donald Trump, we do not need two pages on the same topic. Slatersteven (talk) 09:11, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

This draft is supposed to replace all of Donald_Trump#Presidency_(2017–2021), not be a separate article. We currently use 200K bytes to say nearly everything the Presidency article already says, so I want to get people's opinions and reduce all of that to the minimum manageable amount. I'm starting it as a draft so we can iterate before we actually replace it in Article space. Soni (talk) 10:26, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Why not just use the article we have? Slatersteven (talk) 13:14, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I think using the Excerpt template here is a bad idea, since the lead of the Presidency article does not have sources. It might make readers think that the content in that section is unsourced. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

If we add sources to that articles lede (or make a copy of that lede with sources), would that work for the overall section? Soni (talk) 21:01, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The lead should be the best possible summary of the article, so just adding sources should make it good enough for a summary style section here. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• @Moxy, ActivelyDisinterested, Izno, GoodDay, Jack Upland, Mandruss, Space4Time3Continuum2x, and SWinxy: Pinging everyone else who discussed trimming in the section above. I'm hoping we can establish consensus on a new draft for the Presidency section to replace the current one. Soni (talk) 13:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Personally, I still do not think that using the Excerpt template is a good idea, because the other article's lead has different goals than this article's section, and is subject to the consensus of that article's talk page and not this one. The summary needs to be trimmed, but this isn't the way we should do it. SXWinxy's proposal would be a good one, if it weren't for the need to make this article work without requiring clicking links. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:51, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  One option we could try is making the hatnote more explicit. Put it in prose, like new editors sometimes do before finding out that the template exists. How about this:

  This section only contains a summary of the most important details. For a more detailed description, see Presidency of Donald Trump.

  QuicoleJR (talk) 14:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Can you clarify what exactly SWinxy's proposal means? Maybe a mock up of it? I tried to parse it a few times but I don't quite follow what it means. Soni (talk) 06:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• If the lead contained sourcing, using "excerpt" would work, but here we are with no sources in the lead. See: Wikipedia:Summary style#Using excerpts for article synchronization. Alternatively, we can copy the lead and add links, or use the excerpt template and add a prose hatnote that explains where to find the sources: "This is only a summary, and the sources are found in the main article." (something like that). This is an opportunity to tweak the PAG. They are not set in stone. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:37, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

My first reaction in two words: hell no. Who's going to read that wall of text which has more blue links than plain text? As for the specifics, I got as far as "brokered the Abraham Accords": the next hell no — see consensus #65 (after you click "show", wishing you had purged the page). Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I am soliciting feedback so we can change said specifics. For the general case, the current article has much more of a wall of text (as the sections above already show).

With the Abraham Accords, it sounds like a simple sentence change would fix it, to meet #65 anyway. I do not know why you treat Local consensus as this unchanging unbreakable rule for this page. WP:Consensus can change, and the way to change consensus is by discussion (like the one we're having right now). Soni (talk) 06:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think any long-time editors of this article need to be reminded that consensus can change. Twenty percent of the consensus items have been superseded. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The proposed text reads like an excerpt of the lead, expanded to include material not considered important enough to be mentioned in the lead. It's basically a bullet list without bullets, lacking "structure [] with consistent, reader-friendly layouts and formatting" (WP:MOS). Each item says nothing but "click here if you want to know what this is about". Aside from that, the rewrite aka massive reduction of material would result in quite a few discussions, all going on at the same time. Trump is running for reelection, so IMO now isn't the time to reduce the current summary-level overview of his first presidency. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Trump is running for reelection, so IMO now isn't the time to reduce the current summary-level overview of his first presidency. In fact, that is even more important to clean up the lengthy mess we have currently. But either way, we should never stall any page improvements for a full year just based on outside reasons. If the article can be improved, we should improve it. It'd be silly to stall page improvements for months based on that Soni (talk) 13:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The lengthy mess, IMO, is a consistently structured, reader-friendly overview. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

We already have the Presidency of Donald Trump page. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Mystery re #invokes and PEIS

Apparently I'm too dumb to figure this out.

PEIS limit is 2,097,152

Immediately before #invokes were added: 1,596,217

Immediately after #invokes were added (in three edits): 1,085,380

So the #invokes reduced PEIS by 510,837

[Ten intervening unrelated edits]

Immediately before my revert: 1,082,220

My revert should have resulted in 1,593,057 (1,082,220 + 510,837), or so I thought

After my revert: Busted PEIS limit (it doesn't tell you by how much)

So I self-reverted.

Immediately after Nikkimaria's edit: 1,836,402

We should be much closer to the original 1,596,217, after allowing for those ten intervening edits

Ping Ahecht and Locke Cole and Nikkimaria. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Your revert introduced a bunch of extra pipe characters, not sure why. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

No, they were introduced by Ahecht and Locke Cole. I'm guessing there is a technical reason.

Anyway, I now see that the first of the "three edits" didn't add #invokes to cites; I ass-umed it did because of the editsum. So I would have to back up and recalculate everything with that in mind. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:25, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Invoking the citation modules requires a double pipe, using the templates directly requires a single pipe. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 13:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

BOLD Removals

@Space4Time3Continuum2x: Why did you revert my trimming of these sections? QuicoleJR (talk) 13:37, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm also trying to understand HOW to (successfully/"permanently", without being reverted) WikiLink to Brand licensing SOMEWHERE in *THIS* (DT) article. It seems helping a reader understand "licensing" could be helpful??

Thanks.

(it seems I upset the same StarTrek-related-named(?) editor mentioned above…) Curious1i (talk) 16:04, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted their revert. You discussed the edits while making it, they need to actually explain why they disagree before/while doing the revert. WP:BRD should not be a roundabout "Stall discussions forever". Soni (talk) 16:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I understand concerns of whitewashing, but no actual information is being removed. It is just being covered on sub-articles about those specific topics. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I responded, in the above Talk:Donald_Trump#Splitting_this_article section where JR mentioned the bold trimming and their intention to do more. (AFAIK, edit summaries aren't part of the discussion cycle, and "can be covered elsewhere" or "we do not need to list these people" doesn't really say a whole lot.) The coverage in sub-articles needs to be mentioned in this article, or how else will readers not as immersed in the Trumpverse as we are know that there's something worthwhile to look up? Since a third editor (you) now reverted my revert, I'll respond in detail tomorrow. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

The article has been dominated by a single purpose account. Having experienced editors in other articles is a great asset that is missing from here. Moxy🍁 18:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy: I think calling Space4 an SPA is excessive. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:11, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Since you mentioned it, I'll agree. I have zero objection to any editor's "dominance", provided they are dominating with fairness, competence, and commitment to process. But sure, the more competent participation, the better. It's hardly Space4T's fault that we don't have a lot of that.

If a focus on one article constitutes SPA, I'm more guilty than Space4T. I never go to other AP2 articles, and rarely to any other articles. I like the commitment to process at this article, which is not present at many other AP2 articles. And I'm semi-retired. So sue me. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

🙏 Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy: single purpose account? WP:AGF. Experienced editors casting aspersions are not an asset, great or otherwise, on any page. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

We are mentioning the basic topic and linking to the sub-article, so it's not like we are hiding anything. We are just asking them to click the links in the hatnote if they want more specific details. Wikipedia:Summary style is an official guideline. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Soni: Please, restore the consensus version you reverted in this edit until the discussion has resulted in a new consensus. QuicoleRJ and me were both following procedure, you weren't. A wise editor once wrote: I think you're confusing content with edit. The ArbCom restriction is about challenged edits, not challenged content. Once content has been in the article for a certain amount of time (admin NeilN has suggested 4–6 weeks, IIRC, and that image has been in the article for longer than that), its removal is not a challenge-by-reversion but simply a BOLD edit. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:26, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Your link isn't right. But I'm okay with restoring (Undo button doesn't work anymore because of intermediate edits, so there's no easy way for me to do so) while we discuss. At the time I reverted you, you had no comments about the removal itself on talk. That's why I reverted, not because I disagree with restrictions or BRD.

Coming back to the discussion, what is the level of detail you think is "necessary" in this article? I'll skip over the whitewashing comments because they're not going to lead us anywhere, I just want to know roughly how much you expect this article to have versus the Presidency article.

On the "Splitting this article" section above, I sense informal but clear consensus in favour of even more drastic reductions. So I'm personally more invested in the overall plan for the article and trying to draft up a reasonable section at Talk:Donald_Trump#Presidency_draft_page Soni (talk) 10:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I have to get back to this later, having trouble keeping up with the increase in editing in the main space and here (and occasionally doing paid work ). We've had numerous short, medium, and lengthy discussions about reductions/drastic reductions, all archived, often of the "10 editors, 20 opinions" variety. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: this (I think you're confusing content with edit. The ArbCom restriction is about challenged edits, not challenged content. Once content has been in the article for a certain amount of time (admin NeilN has suggested 4–6 weeks, IIRC, and that image has been in the article for longer than that), its removal is not a challenge-by-reversion but simply a BOLD edit.) applies to this bold removal of longstanding content and its challenge, as well. If it had been a bold addition, the challenged text would stay out of the article until there's a consensus for inclusion on the Talk page. It's a bold removal, it stays in the article until there's a consensus for exclusion. Please, self-revert this edit. IMO, it is not an improvement to use the vague term "less lethal weapons", which redirects to non-lethal weapons (an article that is tagged as needing verification and lists many other weapons in addition to some of the specific ones named in our cited sources), for the sake of saving 59 bytes. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a bold removal, it stays in the article until there's a consensus for exclusion. What is the basis for this statement? It's not what the arb restriction says.

We don't decide what articles to link on the basis of the overall quality of those articles. The article is of sufficient quality to define the term for those who don't know what it means, though of course if you'd like to improve it by all means do so. The specific weapons used are not a detail that must be included. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

+1 as the original editor. Most people do not need to know the exact list of weapons law enforcement used, they just need to know that they weren't trying to kill the protesters. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

This discussion is going nowhere. Hatting so that we can focus on the content itself. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, as to process: If something has been in the article for a long time, it's said to have de facto consensus and a new consensus is required to remove it if the bold removal is contested. Historically, editors at this article haven't disagreed with the concept, but there were recurring disputes about the definition of "a long time". Eventually, admin NeilN suggested 4–6 weeks; since no other "authority" has said any different, that's the number we've used in the rare situations that it's been an issue. It's not what the arb restriction says because the arb restriction does not cover all applicable process, only the part that's different for this article and others like it. I hope this makes a little sense. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC) I haven't reviewed the historic discussions that inform your comment so it's possible I'm missing some nuance. But on its face, if we're talking about general process rather than something specific to either CTOP or this particular article, then we would need to have a discussion first before potentially restoring the contested content. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 6 April 2024 (UTC) That's not how I understand it, nor how it's been done at this article at least since 2015 when I descended upon it. De facto consensus is a thing, and not a thing we invented. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC) An edit is presumed to have consensus until it is disputed, but once it is disputed that goes away; there's no time limit on when that can happen. That's why "it's been around a long time" is an argument to avoid in discussions. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:15, 6 April 2024 (UTC) According to that essay. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC) The presumed-until-challenged piece is from EDITCON, a policy. That's why I asked about the basis for the statement, as I'm not aware of any other than essays. But I think this meta-discussion is distracting from the actual content under dispute. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2024 (UTC) It's common to collapse "distracting" process discussion so it's less distracting. But this article is built around process as the only fair way to do things, so process needs discussion when there's disagreement. The disagreements themselves are distracting, as we've seen here, which is why it's important to resolve them to prevent future distracting disagreements. Does this particular process issue warrant a separate discussion? I don't know. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:43, 6 April 2024 (UTC) It says edit, not addition of content. The removal would seem to be the edit that has been challenged. For the record, I am on your side in terms of excluding the weapon list, I'm just saying that EDITCON is not really the best argument for exclusion. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC) @Nikkimaria, Space4Time3Continuum2x, and Mandruss: Here is the most relevant part of policy I know of, (with some irrelevant exceptions excluded) from WP:CONSENSUS: When discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles end without consensus, the common result is to retain the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. However: Living people. In discussions related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify, or remove it. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2024 (UTC) I find it compelling that a very experienced and respected admin, NeilN (who is regrettably no longer around), endorsed and even enforced the de facto consensus concept—specifically at this here article about a living person. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC) This policy agrees with you. It says add, modify, or remove, not just add. The question in relation to this policy is whether the BLP exception applies. I'd say it doesn't, as the link specifies that the objection must be BLP-related. I agree with removing it, but I think we should focus on the actual content. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC) Fine with me; focus away. I have no opinion on the actual content. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC) The policy you're quoting is about when discussions end without consensus. The claim that "de facto consensus" (ie longevity) requires retention of disputed content before/during discussion is a different issue. I'm not sure what policy would support the enforcement of that claim. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC) The wikilink in discussions related to living people links to WP:BLPRESTORE which is about good-faith BLP objections, a high bar for public figures and not the reason why the content was removed in this case. Seems to me that When .. proposals to ... remove material in articles end without consensus, the common result is to retain the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit applies. Until the discussion has concluded, the consensus version is the one prior to the bold edit, so your revert of my revert to the consensus version was wrong, no? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC) No. The quote you provided applies after the discussion ends, not until it ends. And at the moment, it's looking more likely to end with consensus for removal. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

To talk about the actual content instead of the policy considerations that may or may not apply, I support exclusion as the editor who originally removed it. First off, the quality of the article linked to is irrelevant to whether the link should be here. The list, featuring five different weapons, is not worth including on Trump's article when the photo-op has its own article, especially since he is not the one who used the weapons. Non-lethal weapons (or less lethal weapons) is easily understandable and covers the relevant parts of the weapons choice. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Edit in question: replace longstanding content batons, rubber bullets, pepper spray projectiles, stun grenades, and smoke with less lethal weapons. Most readers will probably understand the named weapons, but will probably not understand and have to click "less lethal" or the previous suggestion "non-lethal weapons", and the substitution saves a mere 59 bytes. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

See no reason to believe the average reader will know what a stun grenade is and not what less lethal means (since even without clicking it has a plain English meaning). And regardless of the total byte count, this is a level of detail that doesn't need to be here. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

+1. Less lethal/Non-lethal is a self-explanatory term, while the weapon list is an excessive amount of detail. Also, the concept of stun grenades is no more common than less lethal weapons, and much less common than non-lethal weapons. Overall, I really don't think that it needs to be included here. Readers who really want to see what weapons were used can go to the photo-op's article. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion of content proposed for removal

1. Conflict of interest. A self-dealing president, spending tax-dollars (e.g. billing the Secret Service top dollars) at the properties he hasn't divested himself of (also golfing a lot after calling his predecessor out for golfing a lot less).

Sentence on visiting Trump properties proposed for deletion
Trump visited a Trump Organization property on 428 (nearly one in three) of the 1,461 days of his presidency and is estimated to have played 261 rounds of golf, one every 5.6 days.

2. Quote from New York Times. It's the opinion of a legal expert at Harvard Law School's Environmental & Energy Law Program, quoted in a newspaper of record.

Sentence proposed for deletion: Trump's actions while president have been called "a very aggressive attempt to rewrite our laws and reinterpret the meaning of environmental protections"

Trump rolled back more than 100 federal environmental regulations, including those that curbed greenhouse gas emissions, air and water pollution, and the use of toxic substances. He weakened protections for animals and environmental standards for federal infrastructure projects, and expanded permitted areas for drilling and resource extraction, such as allowing drilling in the Arctic Refuge. Trump's actions while president have been called "a very aggressive attempt to rewrite our laws and reinterpret the meaning of environmental protections".

3. Commuting sentence of Alice Marie Johnson, Kim Kardashian connection. Meh — withdrawing objection to removal. Sentence of middle-management drug trafficker commuted while the applications of other people (who moved far less "produce" but don't have the celebrity connection) through the normal DOJ channels didn't make it to TFG's desk - a feature, not a bug.

Johnson/Kardashian
Following a request by celebrity Kim Kardashian, Trump commuted the life sentence of Alice Marie Johnson, who had been convicted of drug trafficking.

4. Pardons. Behavior typical of authoritarian leaders: pardoning family, cronies, and people recommended by cronies and celebrities. Trump is considering two of the pardoned felons (Manafort and Stone) for campaign positions (CNN, Telegraph).

Sentence proposed for deletion: Among them were Michael Flynn; Roger Stone, whose 40-month sentence for lying to Congress, witness tampering, and obstruction he had already commuted in July; and Paul Manafort.
and five people convicted as a result of investigations into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential elections. Among them were Michael Flynn; Roger Stone, whose 40-month sentence for lying to Congress, witness tampering, and obstruction he had already commuted in July; and Paul Manafort.

5. Muslim ban. IMO the specific is better than the generalization. The proposed new text "certain Muslim-majority countries" instead of naming the countries makes me wonder which countries. When I hear "Muslim" followed by "security concerns", I think of 9/11 and Saudi-Arabia (financed by Saudi-Arabian money, and the terrorists were mostly Saudi citizens, none of them from any of the banned countries).

Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen
On January 27, 2017, Trump signed Executive Order 13769, which suspended admission of refugees for 120 days and denied entry to citizens of Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen for 90 days, citing security concerns.

The "Presidency" article is much less read than this one, so when we don't mention actions or names, they're effectively hidden. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:46, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I understand your concerns, I'm just saying that not everything can stay in the article. The amount of stuff to mention will only go up from here, especially if he is re-elected in November. Eventually, we will have to remove relevant and well-sourced info simply because there is too much to cover here. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

To address some of your more specific concerns, I think #5 can stay for now, since your objection makes sense. #1 is probably relevant enough to stay at the moment, but I think we should trim the specific numbers and just say that he visited the properties on roughly 1 in 3 days of his presidency. I still think #4 should probably go, but your objection does make sense, and there are other things in the article that we can trim first. As for #2, I am going to push back on that one. This person is so important, has been relevant for so long, and has received so much media coverage that I do not think that we should include any quotes that aren't by him, with very few exceptions. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I reinserted per the above, removed Flynn's name from the sentence on pardons. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:48, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Sources

Adding this reference to the worst presidents clause in the lead

Hi, I would like to gain a consensus on implementing this source in the lead that supports the sentence that says that scholars and historians ranking Trump as one of the worst presidents. The text doesn’t need to be changed. Just adding a source. Source: [4] Interstellarity (talk) 23:38, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm philosophically opposed to the two citations we have there already already (the only citations in the lead). I don't believe in accommodating readers who stop reading at the lead. I'd prefer to have that added in the body. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC) Redacted 00:47, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Hear, hear! --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Mandruss. Trump is certainly in the race for worst president if not already the winner. But, too early for an encyclopedia to say such in the lead. I'm fine with this in the body as a scholarly/historical view. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Mandruss. Mandruss opposes the new lead citation, not the lead content (which is already there). That's a separate topic. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah, misunderstood. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Just a note that I have removed the existing lead citations in the paragraph. If anyone objects to their removal, people are free to make their case below. Interstellarity (talk) 00:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

See related current consensus item 58. It supersedes my personal philosophy, but AFAICT it doesn't necessarily preclude your edit. I see no clear consensus to include those two cites. Granted, the hidden comment removed in your edit disagrees, but the hidden comments aren't 100% trustworthy or the final word. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I object to the removal:

1) We previously [discussed] which sentences would benefit from having inline citations, which is where the citations in the lead came from—to remove the citations should require another discussion, methinks. I would suggest a self-revert until such a discussion has taken place. We came to a consensus on which sentences to add inline citations to; naturally, repealing a previous consensus requires a consensus to repeal. I don't want to dig through the archives to find said consensus, but I'd like to believe that the fact that the citations are there to begin with is enough, considering this page and its intolerance for lead citations.

2) We include citations for controversial statements because guidelines ask us to. See WP:LEADCITE (which is terribly worded and much too vague IMO): The verifiability policy states that all quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports it. In the case of the phrases that were codified in the lead, editors here at Donald Trump decided that those few phrases were covered by this section of the guideline, and, as such, required inline citations. That part of the guideline was codified in the consensus list because, for reasons I don't understand, editors here are very strongly opposed to citations in the lead, and the consensus list is much more powerful than measly guidelines.

3) Even if lead citations are redundant, unnecessary, etc—what's actually wrong with them? Like, seriously. What's the actual problem with including them in the lead? Byte count? PEIS limit? Are they too distracting? I have tried to understand this point of view many times and I simply cannot. Why should readers have to hunt down a citation scattered somewhere in the body when we can just... hand them one in the lead? As far as I can tell, they don't hurt anyone in any substantial way.

4) Mandruss, including a citation in the lead when there are separate citations in the body is a situation that almost falls under the jurisdiction of MOS:REPEATLINK IMO, a guideline that you previously advocated for. I consider these two scenarios to be analogous in some respects. Cessaune [talk] 04:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

the consensus list is much more powerful than measly guidelines. As it should be. Guidelines are only guidelines (especially MoS guidelines, imho). They are to be considered but are not binding. WP editing is not about robotically following rules.

I at least looked for consensus for those two citations. It sounds like you didn't, and are assuming it exists merely because the citations have existed for a long time. Faulty assumption in my opinion.

4) What you see there are two competing principles. In the discussion you linked, I said: If I'm a reader, I don't particularly care to go hunting for a link elsewhere in the article when I need one. If I'm a reader, I don't need a link in the lead unless I stop reading at the lead. As I said, I don't believe in accommodating that. If I'm a reader, I can go find the sources in the body if I really care about verifiability. Otherwise, I can assume that the article's editors know what they're doing.

Oh... and that discussion was about wikilinks, not citations (as is REPEATLINK), although I suppose the same principles apply somewhat. (As you suggested, I belatedly notice.)

And yes, many editors feel that the absence of citations results in a much cleaner lead. I'm one of them. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

faulty assumption—I didn't assume. I merely would "like to believe". No, I didn't dig through the archives. I'm lazy and don't want to.

I think that the absence of citations in this case results in a negligibly cleaner lead. Like, come on. Do you genuinely think that the lead feels noticeably less cluttered without the citations? If so, I don't understand that opinion. We aren't January 6 United States Capitol attack. It was two cites. They didn't split a sentence in half. Hell, they didnt split anything—they were at the end of a paragraph. Next to each other. In principle, maybe the lead looks better without citations. Maybe not. But in practice? Really? Two citations? much cleaner? I don't know about all that.

Apparently we browse Wikipedia in a fundamentally different way. I lead-surf. I jump between articles. I click on links in the lead without reading the body. Or I control-click, leave and come back. I'm skittish. I don't linger. Does that mean that I am not worthy of accomodation? Because what you're saying here, IMO, is that readers who don't read past the lead aren't worthy of our time. Well, damn. That's, like, a lot of readers, at least according to meta:Research:Which parts of an article do readers read and this.

Simply put: different people view Wikipedia differently. IMO we should cater to what people actually do in practice (read the lead and leave) and not to what we actually want people to do in theory (read the body). I don't think we can or should expect readers to want to read an article of this length, or to dig through it to find information, and readers who don't do so/don't want to do so are IMO as worthy of accomodation as any other reader. I don't see why a reader who doesn't read past the lead is, in practice, any different from a reader who does, and it feels wrong to me, the idea that we should make decisions based on how we want readers to act (assuming that there is a way that editors generally want readers to act) and not based on how people actually act. Cessaune [talk] 05:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you genuinely think that the lead feels noticeably less cluttered without the citations? Yes. I try to be genuine whenever I can.

But I'm speaking generally about lead citations, not those two alone. No, I don't think the removal of those two cites significantly improved lead cleanliness. I'm talking about the larger issue.

If we can find a consensus for those two, or reach one here, by all means restore them. Until then, I oppose and will wait for other voices. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

In this case I would rather operate on what happens in practice. There's been two citations in the lead for like two years, and that number was unlikely to change. Sure, maybe citations make a lead feel more cluttered, but we weren't at that point and we are very unlikely to get to that point. Cessaune [talk] 12:47, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

As I am unsure it should even be in the body I am sure it should not be in the lede. Slatersteven (talk) 09:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

It's an article about the Presidential Greatness Project. We discussed the survey briefly but it didn't make it into the article, so IMO we shouldn't use the cite in the lead. It isn't mentioned at Historical rankings of presidents of the United States, either, although they do mention the 2018 survey. Removing the citations against the current consensus — shouldn't we establish a new consensus first? (For the record, I also oppose having citations in the lead, "strongly", to use TFG's favorite adverb.) Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 10:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Removing the citations against the current consensus — shouldn't we establish a new consensus first? Absolutely, if a consensus exists to include those two cites. No one has found one yet. Care to try? ―Mandruss ☎ 10:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

No, and yay. I thought we had a consensus to add cites to the sentence but after taking another look at #58: yay. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Trump's Bible

Should we mention it? See [5]. Jack Upland (talk) 01:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Why, its just another product. Slatersteven (talk) 09:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

We're mentioning it, at Business_career_of_Donald_Trump#Branding_and_licensing and The_Trump_Organization#Related_ventures_and_investments. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

While it is a relevant piece of information, there is simply no room to mention it here. Like Space4 said, it is mentioned in several other articles, so it isn't like we are just ignoring it. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Current consensus section on this page

Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus seems to have an extremely long list that pretty much pushes everything down on this talk page permanently. I hatted the list at Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus but it seems @Mandruss preferred it this way? I guess the "frequent editors" on this page are used to this format, but I don't think anywhere on enWiki uses this.

I like hatted simply because that's what we do for nearly everything else that's permanent on talk (headings and such) so they continue being readable. Hatting would also be kinda a "best of both worlds" as we keep having the consensus at a prominent place in this page, but it's hatted so everyone isn't forced to scroll through 3 screens just to get to any discussion here. Soni (talk) 04:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

forced to scroll through 3 screens just to get to any discussion here. ?? The ToC precedes the consensus list. Nobody "gets to any discussion here" by scrolling through the page (I hope). It's either via the ToC or the page history the ToC, the page history, or one's contribs page.

I don't think anywhere on enWiki uses this. So? Innovation is not evil. Talk:Joe Biden uses this, albeit on a much smaller scale. It should use it a lot more, imo, but I don't edit there. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC) Redacted 06:28, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Nobody "gets to any discussion here" by scrolling through the page (I hope). I actually do. I usually only use TOCs if I'm only reading a specific section on a talk page, otherwise it's just easier to skim through the entire page to quick-check discussions.

But also... What purpose does the unhatted consensus section serve? What is the benefit we get from having it fully expanded instead? We can still link to the section as normal, and show/hide is pretty intuitive regardless (we use them in the consensus section ourselves) Soni (talk) 05:11, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm. I think you're unusual in that respect. As I said in my revert, there hasn't been another peep about this in 8 years (to my knowledge). In any case, it takes me all of five seconds to scroll through the consensus list. Is your time really that valuable?

Just (1) greater visibility, and (2) no need to click [show]. Obviously, different editors will weigh these things differently, which is why we're here.

that's what we do for nearly everything else that's permanent on talk (headings and such) - I don't know what hatted headings you're referring to. Certainly not section headings. As for the "top material", or whatever you call it (banners?), the consensus list is actually essential to the day-to-day operation of this article. Apples and oranges.

Here's what we know for sure; the rest is unsubstantiated speculation.

1. One editor (you) has to scroll through the list.
2. Every editor using the list would have to click [show], every time they used it.

Do the math. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Do the math. Thanks for the lesson in condescension. I definitely needed to answer my question ("greater visibility and no need to click [show]").

As I said in my revert, there hasn't been another peep about this in 8 years (to my knowledge). As someone said above, nobody has apparently raised concerns about Presidency article's size in 4 years. Does not mean we don't need to change it.

I see a simple change that'd improve the readability, I proposed it. Now if other editors prefer it hatted/unhatted, they can say so, and I'll defer to consensus. Soni (talk) 09:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Me too. I've pretty much exhausted my arguments. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I personally don't think that it's a big deal, bt you do raise some valid points. I don't think anyone is substantially helped or harmed by it in its current state though. Cessaune [talk] 12:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Soni: Why don't you just click the first item underneath "Consensus" in the table of contents and skim through the entire page from there? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it's clutter and should be hatted with the explanatory text: "This is a list of the results of previous discussions on this talk page that reached a consensus on various issues for this article." I think the clutter is more apparent to editors who are new to the article than it is to editors who have been living with it for years. It has some similarity to the real life problem of hoarding, where the hoarding homeowner just gets used to the clutter and doesn't want to change. Bob K31416 (talk) 11:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Clutter right back at ya. Consensus is one of the basic concepts of Wikipedia editing, no definition necessary. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Instead of displaying the long list it would look like this.

Current consensus

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
[[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus|current consensus]] item [n]
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to .

List of some previous discussions that reached a consensus.

Bob K31416 (talk) 21:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I like it unhatted because then I don't have to click it open when referencing a violated consensus in an edit summary. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I made the change of hatting just to let editors have some experience with it so they can better decide whether to hat or not to hat. I request that we leave it hatted for 3 days before anyone reverts it. Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 16:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Hatted or unhatted, I would prefer any obsolete or superceded consensi to be separated out or just removed from the list.

The main reason for keeping the full list is searchability, so that shouldn't be affected if all obsolete items get removed in a separate hatnote. At least the least important third of the list will no longer be a deal then Soni (talk) 11:03, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I would strongly oppose that, but thankfully it's off-topic in this particular thread. Experience has taught us that it's best to put separate issues in separate threads, to the extent possible. You're likely to get more thorough consideration in a separate discussion. The two issues are related, I grant, but there's no real need to combine them in one thread. A new subsection of this section would be fine, and then the two would be sure to be archived together. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I like it unhatted because then a search of the page for the key words will show that content in the FAQ. When it's hatted, it doesn't show. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:06, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

(It took a bit of effort to understand your comment, since we don't call it a FAQ.) That's another good point; collapsed content is invisible to browser Find functions. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Thi is a very coherent argument. It's nice to be able to reference a previous consensus by simply pressing ctrl+f and typing in '58.' or something similar. Cessaune [talk] 00:30, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

To be clear and fair, collapsing doesn't prevent the use of ctrl+f; it just requires an extra step (clicking [show]). So this argument kind of falls under a point previously made: Every editor using the list would have to click [show], every time they used it. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:41, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oops! My bad. Fortunately, you all got my point. Hatted content is hidden from view AND from searches. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I unhatted. It's been three days + one. Low participation, 4:2 in favor of status quo (ante doesn't really apply for "letting editors have some experience with it" but what do I know). Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Operation Warp Speed

I think Operation Warp Speed should be mentioned in the lede, while discussing his response to COVID-19. It is really significant! Tejas Subramaniam (talk) 20:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Extensively covered by article Operation Warp Speed at much more depth than this article could cover. Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 20:59, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Trump's push to speed up vaccine development was first criticized as going against the experts, but then the vaccine came out faster than the experts thought it would.

April 29, 2020, Trump Seeks Push to Speed Vaccine, Despite Safety Concerns, NY Times

November 17, 2020, Trump scores a long-awaited coronavirus win with vaccines on the way, CNN

December 21, 2020, Biden receives Covid-19 vaccine, praises Trump's 'Operation Warp Speed', NBC

There was a previous discussion here. Thank you for your suggestion, but I don't think there is any chance that it will be included. Bob K31416 (talk) 14:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikilinks in 6th paragraph of lead

Hello, I would like to propose the following paragraph include wikilinks to Impeachment in the United States, the First impeachment of Donald Trump, and the Second impeachment of Donald Trump: "Trump is the only American president to have been impeached twice. After he tried to pressure Ukraine in 2019 to investigate Biden, he was impeached by the House of Representatives for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted by the Senate in February 2020. The House impeached him again in January 2021 for incitement of insurrection. The Senate acquitted him in February. Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history."

I would like a wiklink to appear on or around the word "impeached" in the first sentence with a link to Impeachment in the United States. This seems like an appropriate destination considering the article's subject and the political aspect. I would like for another wikilink to appear at or around the word "impeached" in the second sentence, which states, "After he tried to pressure Ukraine in 2019 to investigate Biden, he was impeached by the House of Representatives for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress." This would be a wikilink to First impeachment of Donald Trump. Given the context, this wikilink seems appropriate to add. I would finally like to add a third wikilink in the sentence, "The House impeached him again in January 2021 for incitement of insurrection." This wiklink would also be at or about the word "impeached" in the sentence given and would not change any words visible to the reader. It would simply add a link to the WP article for the Second impeachment of Donald Trump.

I have previously added wikilinks for all instances listed above, but all were reverted. — Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 06:22, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

As per discussion at my UTP, I oppose the first link per MOS:OVERLINK bullet 1, and the second and third links per MOS:EGG. If my faulty memory serves, the last two (or less EGGy versions thereof) have previously been added and removed, possibly more than once. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I think that impeachment justifies a wikilink or two (or three) in the main article lead. Trump is a unique case in that he is the only United States president to be impeached twice. Even if the first link fails MOS:OVERLINK, the second and third links should be added due to the context they provide to the reader. I understand that links deeper in the body of the article do point to the same targets, but having these wikilinks in the lead can provide crucial context to readers who do not wish to read the article in its entirety. — Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 06:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

He was impeached by the U.S. House of Representatives, but not the U.S. Senate. To not highlight this misleads readers into thinking he was impeached by both.

The majority of the body of this explanation has been proven false, for example, the Russia influence in the election was proven to be false and actually a purchased dossier by the FBI and democrats. It's disappointing that Wikipedia will allow such misinformation to persist as a scene in this biased opinion rather than a factual resource 2603:6081:61F0:1250:2CCB:3396:134:9761 (talk) 14:01, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

He was impeached by the U.S. House of Representatives, but not the U.S. Senate. Exactly what the article says. Otherwise, please read: Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias and come back when you have (1) a suggestion for a specific change to the article, and (2) sources to back it up. Thanks. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course he wasn't impeached by the Senate, the Senate doesn't impeach anyone. The Senate conducts an impeachment trial. These ARE NOT the same thing. Just as an indictment is not the same as a trial in court. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:42, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, I am open to suggestions on alternative placements for the aforementioned wikilinks that comply with MOS:EGG in a manner that the community sees fit. — Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 06:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Trump is the only American president to have been impeached twice. After he tried to pressure Ukraine in 2019 to investigate Biden, he was impeached by the House of Representatives for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted by the Senate in February 2020. The House impeached him again in January 2021 for incitement of insurrection. The Senate acquitted him in February. Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history. Satisfies EGG and, apparently, was already proposed by Mandruss. Cessaune [talk] 16:48, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

"Proposed" by Mandruss (in the UTP discussion) merely as an illustration of the EGG concept. No particular support implied. I'm not convinced we need yet two more links to other articles in the lead. Where are lblinks when we need them?? ―Mandruss ☎ 20:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

They've been shelved (for now [and possibly forever {but hopefully not}]). Impeachment, of all things, deserves a link. Come on. It isn't every day that a POTUS gets impeached. Cessaune [talk] 20:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

And, I would also support a link to impeachment (Trump is the only American president to have been impeached twice). Cessaune [talk] 20:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Count me neutral. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:57, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

i would support linking to the two impeachment Iff the links to the House and Senate are dropped.

Trump is the only American president to have been impeached twice. After he tried to pressure Ukraine in 2019 to investigate Biden, he was impeached by the House of Representatives for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted by the Senate in February 2020. The House impeached him again in January 2021 for incitement of insurrection. The Senate acquitted him in February. Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.

thus a net zero wikilinking. ValarianB (talk) 12:54, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Why drop the links? Senate (disambiguation) links to nine pages, and House of Representatives links to twenty-nine. Cessaune [talk] 14:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Concur — net zero wikilinking, replace existing two links. The links to Federal impeachment in the United States and the House and Senate pages are in the body and presumably on First impeachment of Donald Trump and Second impeachment of Donald Trump. Cessaune, what do you mean? The current links are House of Representatives and Senate. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

My point is that there are a lot of different Senates and even more House of Representatives across the world, and a direct link to a specific one is nice.

Removing the links to the pages makes it harder for readers to get to those pages, considering the fact that typing in Senate or House of Representatives doesn't bring you to US Senate or US House of Representatives (and, surprisingly, neither United States Senate nor United States House of Representatives show up as suggested articles in the search box). Without links in the lead are two options: 1) dig through Senate, Senate (disambiguation) and/or House of Representatives to get to the page, or 2) know what to search for. United States Senate is a handful to type, as is United States House of Representatives, and I wouldn't assume that readers would know to type US instead of United States as they might assume that that wouldn't be a valid redirect.

I don't see a compelling reason to remove the links, and, in fact, the idea of net zero wikilinking seems kind of arbitrary. Clicking a link takes two seconds. I don't think that we should take them away from readers simply because... I don't even really know what the reasoning is. Because we want less links in the lead? Well, why? Cessaune [talk] 16:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

English language wikipedia, article is about an american president. it is a natural assumption that we're talking about our senate and house, no need for links. ValarianB (talk) 19:52, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

That's not at all the point. Everyone knows that we're talking about the US Senate and the US House of Representatives. The point is that people may want to read those articles, and they're not especially easy to get to.

My question is, what is the actual issue with including those links? Cessaune [talk] 20:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it goes to the reader steering issue. Each new link in the lead (where there is related body content, unlike e.g. House of Representatives) encourages readers to bypass the body, just a little more than before. Lblink would be best, no link would be second best. But still neutral. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I now see that those links might be referring specifically to House and Senate links. If so, my comment is out of place but still relevant to the overall discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:52, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to disagree with this line of reasoning. Yes, it's theoretically better for readers to read the article, but IMO it isn't better to stop readers from reading other articles to further that goal. If the point is to allow the reader to gain information, lblink > normal link > no link. Cessaune [talk] 03:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Well at least we agree that lblink is first. That's something, even if irrelevant here since we don't have lblink (yet). Sorry for the digression. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The point is that people may want to read those articles [...] My question is, what is the actual issue with including those links?

MOS:OVERLINK: An article is said to be overlinked if it contains an excessive number of links, making it difficult to identify those likely to aid a reader's understanding. A good question to ask yourself is whether reading the article you're about to link to would help someone understand the article you are linking from. So please explain how reading about the U.S. House or the U.S. Senate would help a reader understand the life of Donald Trump. Far too tangential to the article subject.

As of this writing, the lead omits those House and Senate links, so this may seem both late and pointless. I think it needed to be said for the record.

No doubt, the principle is violated many, many times in the article. Too many editors think it's a great idea to link just about anything that can be linked. (Links are cool; look what I can do with just four characters. Hey, a reader might want to read about that, we shouldn't presume anything, and better safe than sorry. Much easier to link this than to have to actually think about the OVERLINK principle.) The article could bear some major link-trimming. But the lead is the most important in these matters, and I don't see a lot of other compelling violations in the lead. I wonder if reading about Hillary helps a reader better understand Trump's life. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm of the mindset that we should always link to people if possible, at least once. Cessaune [talk] 09:06, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

This seems to have gone on a tangent about what links are and are not acceptable and whether net zero wikilinking should or shouldn't be the protocol (I am not aware of any hard limit policies or guidelines on inclusion of wiklinks in lead sections, so to me this reads like a straw man.). I'd like to bring this conversation back to focus. Being twice impeached from the highest office in the U.S. is a serious charge, one that was unheard of until several years ago. With the very small number of impeachments of presidents of the U.S., both articles for Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton (the only other two presidents impeached) have impeachment wikilinks in their lead sections. On the article for Donald Trump, impeachment is not linked in any form of the word until the body. — Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 05:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

This seems to have gone on a tangent Very common. Smaller issues often go to overarching larger issues, which are more important in the greater scheme, and the larger issues usually don't come up without being triggered by the smaller ones. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it's very common. I've been an editor here long enough to have seen my fair share. It's good to acknowledge the small issues with the large ones. Would you care to comment on my main point though? — Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 05:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I've said about all I care to about the smaller issue. I'm a larger issue kinda guy. I've stated that I'm neutral on the smaller issue. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

So why did I revert you if I was neutral? Fair question. I wasn't that neutral then. And there was the knowledge, largely unconscious, that very little change to this article's lead, beyond minor grammatical improvements and such, is accepted without discussion—so we would have ended up here anyway and I just saved a little time. We have, after all, seen some opposition here besides mine, no? ―Mandruss ☎ 06:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

While I'm all for giving a rest to debates when the topic becomes argued ad nauseam, given all that has been said and done over the past days, your acceptance of these three additional wikilinks to the lead is still questionable. I'll consider that your opinion may have swayed since your original revert, but I'm not sure in which direction. I'll say that I'm not holding out on your opinion alone from adding them back myself, but I would like to get a community consensus beforehand. Your assertion that, "Each new link in the lead (where there is related body content, unlike e.g. House of Representatives) encourages readers to bypass the body, just a little more than before", falls apart as an argument in regards to lead section guidelines on linking. Links are how we build the web, after all. I am also unclear about what you consider to be smaller and larger issues. No one in this topic has offered an explanation for the non-inclusion of these wikilinks to my understanding. — Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 06:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

No one in this topic has offered an explanation for the non-inclusion of these wikilinks to my understanding. Well I'm too lazy to review this long discussion in the hopes of refuting that claim, so I'll tell you what. I'll self-revert, we'll turn back the clock three days, and we'll see if anybody else reverts you. Couldn't be any more reasonable than that. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I rereverted. See my remarks above. Additionally: three links saying "impeached", each one targeting a different page, looks like an Easter basket with some MOS:EGGs. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:18, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

No harm in that. I think the wikilinks read better the way they are now compared to how they were recently. Even my own suggestions weren't perfect. I'm glad that the article has more precise targets for wikilinks than it once had. — Paper Luigi ^{T • C} 06:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Overlinks?

Re: [6]

The relevant guideline is MOS:OVERLINK (not that a guideline is required for something like this; we are allowed to use reasoning independent from "rules").

An article is said to be overlinked if it contains an excessive number of links, making it difficult to identify those likely to aid a reader's understanding. A good question to ask yourself is whether reading the article you're about to link to would help someone understand the article you are linking from.

At MOS:BUILD:

Ask yourself, "How likely is it that the reader will also want to read that other article?"

For one example:

In September 1983, Trump purchased the New Jersey Generals, a team in the United States Football League.

The first link is relevant to Trump's biography; he purchased the Generals. The second link, however, is not; that the Generals were in the USFL is a mere aside too tangential to the article subject to link. On the outside chance a reader wants to read about the USFL, it's linked in the first sentence at New Jersey Generals.

As for the news orgs links, again, it's unlikely a reader will want to read about one; they are here to read about Trump, not The Washington Post. If they do, it's linked in the citation. citation (this also brings the MOS:DUPLINK principle into play). ―Mandruss ☎ 04:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC) Redacted 05:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Here's my logic: there's no guideline or policy that states that we have to get rid of the links, so as long as I can think of a reason, any reason at all, to keep the links, then I'd keep them. I can think of a relevant reason to keep each and every one I reinstated.

I've been thinking about linking on this page for a long time and have come up with the idea that we need a local methodology, a reference sheet or something that tells us exactly which types of things should and shouldn't be linked. Cessaune [talk] 18:42, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I can think of a relevant reason to keep each and every one I reinstated. Ok, let's start with USFL for example. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:46, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

we need a local methodology... - Can't imagine how that could be codified, beyond "do not link the name of a news org linked in a supporting citation". Agree that it would help; consistency within an article is generally worth pursuing. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:51, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

As a reader of the Trump enwiki page, I don't necessarily want to read about the USFL. What's far more likely is the impulsive link hover-over, to get the little lead blurb and accompanying image (not everybody has page previews enabled, but I do and I find it very useful). In reality, I would definitely want to hover over the link to see the preview. I don't really know what the USFL is and I don't necessarily want to navigate away from the page to figure that out, so being able to read a little information about it without having to leave the page is nice. For a link such as the NFL, an organization that I am familiar with, my general assumption, and this goes for all organizations/businesses, is that not everyone is familiar with it, in the same way that it's reasonable to assume that not everyone is familiar with the English Premier League. The only removal justification I can think of, the fact that more links = more visual clutter, doesn't really apply here IMO, and everything else is just an interpretation of vague MOS suggestions, suggestions that I believe are way too restrictive.

A local methodology: for example we could say link all people, don't link news orgs, link all places. I don't know. Just something to refer to, for consistency's sake.

Also, how is anyone gonna know that an organization is linked in a citation? That wouldn't be my first assumption, or even a guess. Cessaune [talk] 07:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Trump University - excessive detail tab

The brief discussion was archived, the "excessive detail" tag remains in place. Recapping item 3 on Trump University:

1. removal of longstanding content
2. partially reinserted
3. tagged as excessive detail
4. shortened here

I didn't remove the tag when I removed part of the sentence, removing it now under the assumption that it's a dead issue. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Per that discussion, I've removed the case value. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

And you've restored it, so it seems the issue is not dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Third opinion on "excessive detail" tag needed

• Longstanding content: In 2004, Trump co-founded Trump University, a company that sold real estate training courses priced from $1,500 to $35,000. trimmed to say In 2004, Trump co-founded Trump University, a company that sold real estate training courses.
• Shortened to: In 2004, Trump co-founded Trump University, a company that sold real estate seminars for up to $35,000.

Is the tag justified? As I said in the previous discussion, such hefty fees for seminars that were adjudged to be basically worthless is a relevant detail IMO. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Fire at St Johns Church

The article states; "....where protesters had set a small fire the night before....". The Washington Post sources are behind a pay wall so I have not read them. However, the ABC source says:"...where a small fire caused damage to its basement during protests the night before...". I seem to recall news coverage/discussions at the time that the protestors were not responsible for the small basement fire. So, I think we can mention the fire but not lay blame to the protestors. What did the Fire Dept report state? Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 12:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• This ATF report is interesting Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 12:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The main article has more info on the fire in the basement nursery of the parish house. The sources say "there was a small fire", "a fire was set", etc., so I suppose we could change the wording to "where a small fire had been set during the protests the night before" but I don't really see that it makes much difference. You can find most WaPo articles on the Wayback Machine, although sometimes you have to open several of the archived versions until you find one without the paywall notice. This is the article; doesn't mention the fire except for a WH spokesman saying that "rioters attempted to burn down" the church. Your link to the ATF press release is missing a hyphen. This one works. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 April 2024

I would like to remove and refine un-cited examples of "public opinion or perception." One example is the following: "During the campaign, his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist." This has no citations and/or references, and seems to be a example of opinion. Pilotnance (talk) 17:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

it is not opinion, citations will be in the body, generally not the lead. ValarianB (talk) 18:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 April 2024

Yuyugfu (talk) 21:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I will try my best to make it good as possible

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Just a reminder in case someone still has a fair mind...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This is an unbelievably biased article. In the opening paragraph, so much attention is given to trumps "business failures" and bankruptcy filings, without mentioning he is one of the richest men who ever lived (a billionaire). Would someone who never knew trump surmise that he is a billionaire from that opening summary paragraph? And unfortunately, it gets worse from there as you read on.

I know that this will fall on deaf ears, but I want to remind the original purpose of wikipedia: to document and convey information. Not to lead people into thinking a certain way. 71.247.12.176 (talk) 03:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.