Talk:Donald Trump

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Current consensus

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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. Do not add web archives to cited sources which are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020) (Superseded by RfC Aug 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (October 2021)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

Veracity graphs

Uninvolved close requested at WP:ANRFC.[1] ―Mandruss ☎ 16:40, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

"Thumbnail" of image in question.
Suggested caption:
Fact-checkers from The Washington Post and the Toronto Star compiled data on "false or misleading claims", and "false claims", respectively. The peaks in late 2018 correspond to the midterm elections, and in late 2019 to his impeachment inquiry. The Post reported 15,413 false or misleading claims in 1,055 days, an average of about 14.6 per day.

• Strong support - I am strongly in favor of retaining the false or misleading claims graphs added by RCraig09. This is an excellent format for conveying information in an online encyclopedia. If anyone feels it clutters the article, I suggest removing any of the building photos (this is not an article about buildings) or we could remove any of the generic images of Trump speaking.- MrX 🖋 19:08, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Graphs are detail data and would appear to be inconsistent with the "summary-level" part of #Current consensus #37. The graphs are already in the Veracity article for readers interested in that level of detail, easily accessible via the {{Main}} hatnote. My objection has little to do with clutter (although file size remains a nagging problem) and I am not opposed to removing any images that serve more to decorate than inform. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:13, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  The graph is a summary of the underlying falsehoods. Your objection would be valid if we listed the actual lies in the graphic. This is possibly the most compact way of conveying the magnitude and significance of of Trump's lying, without being excessively verbose.- MrX 🖋 19:55, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  The magnitude and significance are already adequately conveyed in the prose – including the midterm-election spike – including specific counts and averages. The graphs add nothing except finer granularity, which is excessive detail for this article. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:13, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  That doesn't take into consideration people who seek visual information. The same argument you're making could be made about any other image in the article, the infobox, or the electoral map which is only tangentially related to the subject but at least as detailed as these lie graphs. why are you being selective in applying Rule 37?- MrX 🖋 20:20, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  I fully support broad application of #37, but I don't run the place. My time and energy being limited, I am more inclined to oppose addition of new violations than to propose elimination of long-existing violations. The existence of bad stuff is never an excuse for more bad stuff. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:40, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  That doesn't take into consideration people who seek visual information. Said visual information is available in the Veracity article – as it stands today, in the lead of the Veracity article. I pray my mind will never become capable of holding the contradiction that we should spend tons of time developing Trump sub-articles while making decisions based on the assumption that they won't be read, that {{Main}} hatnote links won't be clicked. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:55, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. In any case, disputed content should be omitted pending consensus to include it, so I think you should self-revert, MrX. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:45, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  I have removed it, pending resolution of this discussion. (I originally created and posted it.) —RCraig09 (talk) 19:59, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - Fine detail of this nature should be omitted in favor shunting it to the supporting articles, per WP:SS. These wee little thumbnails do not do the data justice anyway. And Mandruss is absolutely correct in that the default position should be for the exclusion of challenged material. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:51, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  What do you mean by "fine detail"? - MrX 🖋 19:55, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  "Trump tells porky pies" is a good summary. Actual numbers displayed in graph form is "fine detail". Also, I don't really think it adds anything useful to the accompanying text. They are absolutely useful in the context of the main veracity article though. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:09, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  Sorry, but I don't think using Cockney slang in an article about the U.S. President is a good idea. I wonder why you are not opposed to other similarly-summarized information in the article, like the electoral map. Why this, but not that?- MrX 🖋 20:27, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  Obviously I'm not suggesting Cockney Rhyming Slang is used in the article. My point is that the graph represents more detail than is necessary for a summary. And I did not weigh in on "other similarly-summarized information" in my response because I haven't considered them. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:43, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  @Scjessey: From File:2017- Donald Trump - graph - false or misleading claims.png I've removed the "actual numbers displayed in graph form". (You may have to refresh your browser or clear your cache to see the most recent version.) This is an elementary and simple graph that adds visual indication of the intensifying trend of falsehoods that isn't conveyed by text. —RCraig09 (talk) 20:47, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  It makes absolutely no difference to my view that the graphs should be excluded. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:49, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  That's a conclusion; not reasoning. And "adding visual appeal" (below) is less important in an encyclopedia than the substance of the intensifying trend of falsehoods. —RCraig09 (talk) 20:56, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  I don't actually see why we need to visually show this "intensifying trend" in the first place. The prose adequately explains the situation, and readers can go to the dedicated veracity article for specifics. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:58, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  @Scjessey: The key word you use is "show"—as in the meaning of "convey". Per another editor: "a picture is worth a thousand words", and a graphic visually shows in an instant what text takes much longer to convey. Another editor also notes that many/most WP readers won't read longer texts but are drawn to images (you mention "visual appeal"). Again: this image—which is not "tiny"—conveys in an instant the falsehood intensification as a summary; clicking on the image lets readers investigate details. —RCraig09 (talk) 16:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  @RCraig09: The graphs are trying to convey details about Trump's mendacity that are over and above what one would normally consider part of a summary. They are, however, ideal for the article that is specifically about Trump's mendacity. To answer your response about the size of the graphs, they are tiny. I would rather have the user click on the LINK TO THE ARTICLE for more information, than click on the link to the larger versions of the graphs. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  @Scjessey: "Tiny" (thumbnail) chart: easy for even lazy readers to instantly see extent and trend. Clicked-on graph: shows details. Yes, charts are also ideal for the Veracity sub-article, but ideal here because a picture instantly conveys as much as the proverbial "1000 words". Also, it's easier for the public to click-on-a-pic than go to another whole article to read. —RCraig09 (talk) 18:52, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  You're making circular arguments and entirely missing the point. WE DON'T NEED TO SEE THE EXTENT AND TREND to understand Trump is a liar at an unprecedented level, because we ALREADY USE THE WORD "UNPRECEDENTED". Please read and inwardly digest WP:SS. If you read it and still don't understand my objection for including the graphs, there will be no point in further discussion. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support. The charts immediately, visually convey a significant veracity trend—and without being "too detailed". Regarding Consensus Item 37: the historic levels and conspicuous escalation pattern of false claims are definitely "likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy", and probably on the presidency itself. Disclosure: I am the one who created and uploaded the chart. 19:56, 5 November 2019 (UTC) Supplemental: Consensus^2019-11-19 (see "Discussion summary", below) recognizes that visuals are superior to text.^{(sourced explanation, FYI)} The two main Opposers argue that the chart is too detailed for this 'parent' article, despite the longtime presence (implied consensus) of an electoral map and excruciating textual detail in the second paragraph of the "False statements" section—which text the two Opposers actually disagree about (here and here). Accordingly, it's a question about "where to draw the detailed-vs-summary line", about which consensus has spoken (see "Discussion summary", below). —Updated RCraig09 (talk) 20:02, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

  Perhaps, but they are not summary level no matter how you cut it. If you're going to cite #37, please consider all of it. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:04, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  They are summary level. Non-summary level would be a listing of all 13k+ lies. Also, knowing how the lies are distributed over time is extremely useful information.- MrX 🖋 20:23, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  @Mandruss: Which part of Consensus #37 do you think I did not consider? The chart is an excellent summary of Trump's historic >13,000 falsehoods; a list of falsehoods themselves would violate #37. I can remove have removed the numbers in the top graph, if that's what you're concerned about. —RCraig09 (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2019 (UTC) updated RCraig09 (talk) 20:58, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  I agree the chart is summary material full of factual content. I also note that this article has at least half a dozen photos of nothing in particular, or visually poor photos that should be removed. We can't be thinking that e.g. the picture of the Turkey ribbon-cutting or a golf clubhouse is better encyclopedic content than an info-graphic. SPECIFICO talk 20:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  You do, unfortunately, need some random images to give the article some visual appeal, but tiny little graphs are not it. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:44, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  Nothing unfortunate about great images. Bad ones in Saudi, Chicago tower, or generic Hollywood Star not so much. There must be a better less cluttered inaugural photo, btw. SPECIFICO talk 21:22, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  Images are not decorations (MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE). It sounds like the size of the graph is your main concern. DYK you can click on it to make it bigger?- MrX 🖋 21:30, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  @RCraig09 - One could always argue that something is "summary level" provided it doesn't include every detail that is available and belongs anywhere in the encyclopedia. I'm the one who proposed #37, but it's proving to be too vague to be useful and I now regret doing so. This is shaking out as one question – How much detail is too much detail for this top-level biography? – and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

  But the issue is larger than the immediate one about these graphs. Trump is not a career politician and this article should not be guided by what our articles on career-politician presidents have done. His presidency may be the most prominent part of his life – and there is a strong unencyclopedic desire to use this article for maximum visibility of recentist content about his presidency – but it is far from all of his life and this article devotes far too much space to it in my strong opinion. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:55, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  As opposed to all the things that could be removed from a biography, incidental achievements, secondary presidential actions, etc. this is content about his core personal style. It would be better if the chart went back to his early public days -- e.g. starting with the demolition of the protected art works at the Trump Tower site, but he was not being so closely fact-checked then. SPECIFICO talk 22:06, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  Seems a bit non sequiturish. Nobody disputes that it's about his core personal style; in dispute is whether it's too much detail about his core personal style for this top-level bio. I continue to view articles including Veracity as extensions of this article that are separate articles only for technical reasons related to article size. I could imagine software support for linking to them from this table of contents, but the support is to use {{Main}} instead. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:24, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  It's not merely his "personal style". For decades to come, his presidency will be what WP readers will search for, and it's likely he'll be remembered most for openly validating the post-truth era from the world's most powerful office. Think Nixon. —RCraig09 (talk) 23:48, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  It's a mistake to think Nixon, as I said above. As I've said in multiple other places, this is not Wikipedia's only article about Trump, it's merely the top-level one and it provides easy links to others including Veracity. We have now achieved circularity. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:57, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  @Mandruss: I was referring to Nixon's legacy in real life, not WP articles themselves. I don't know anything that captures for future generations of WP readers, Trump's intensifying falsehoods faster or better, at a summary level, than this graphic. —RCraig09 (talk) 16:15, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

• Re Table: @Mandruss: Only 3 of 5 commenters here have entered bolded text at the beginning of their posts. It's not clear. The Table helps with gauging consensus, and strength of opinion, and doesn't violate WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. Please replace it. —RCraig09 (talk) 22:35, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  Surely you're aware that the word "strong" (and the word "weak") is often used in the bolded part of a !vote to indicate strength of opinion. I suggest you ping the editors who haven't made their positions clear and ask them to do so. Sorry, I'm not inclined to restore that departure from the method that has worked just fine at this article for years. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:40, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

  @MrX: @SPECIFICO: Just a note to ask you to add a bolded Support or Oppose etc. label to the beginning of your post, to make it easier to gauge consensus. —RCraig09 (talk) 23:28, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support. I can't believe that we would even consider nonsense like remote-diagnosis from psychiatrists or self-serving physicians' tall tales and then reject a factual diagram that quickly conveys well-documented behavioral information. SPECIFICO talk 23:53, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Seems more appropriate for the veracity article not here. PackMecEng (talk) 00:02, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  Why not both? 🌮- MrX 🖋 01:23, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  Nah, seems redundant.🌯 PackMecEng (talk) 03:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  Tacos are never redundant with burritos. ¡Yo quiero! - MrX 🖋 12:29, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  Fair enough, I can find no flaw in that logic! PackMecEng (talk) 18:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose: I see no reason to include them.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support Partly per SPECIFICO, also, these are clear, easy to understand graphical representations of things that have been extensively covered by RS. No reason not to include them. Mgasparin (talk) 01:42, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. Regardless of the consensus that emerges, I will note that this is almost certainly, by definition, summary level. Regardless of the content, it’s exactly the sort of graphic most articles ‘dream’ of. It can be created here due to the close press scrutiny of Trump, obviously. Visual aides are encouraged, and something like this is not only encyclopedic, it’s informative and easily verified.

  Secondly, I also likewise agree that a few (or likely several) of the images already in the article could be removed. A few a certainly fit into the photographic equivalent of WP:CRUFT, and there are clearly more relevant and encyclopedic images out there that we could replace them with. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 02:14, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@Symmachus Auxiliarus: Just a note to suggest you add a bolded Support or Oppose etc. label to the beginning of your post, to make it easier to gauge consensus. —RCraig09 (talk) 20:17, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support. A picture is worth a thousand words, so this serves a very good purpose. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:18, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support. We can't get into fine detail, but a graph is a summary, almost by definition. The lies and deceptions distinguish this presidency from any other - not in that they occur, because there was never yet a completely honest politician - but because of the scale and magnificence, easily grasped by looking at the visual representation of data. We are here to inform, not to fight political battles. --Pete (talk) 06:01, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support - I was about to !vote weak support as the article is long. But, Trump’s flexibility with facts is a defining part of his lifelong career. As for clutter, this is certainly more valuable than having 23 images of the subject. O3000 (talk) 16:17, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  @Objective3000: FTR, no Oppose argument has cited clutter. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:04, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  Clutter is a concern of mine when an article is lengthy and why I first considered weak support. O3000 (talk) 17:25, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose charts - it’s details, and gives UNDUE emphasis to a POV talking point. There hasn’t been an enduring impact to Trump’s life from a chart anyway, nor has a chart been a big feature of his life, so it doesn’t belong in BLP. It’s mentioned to be at Veracity article — no need to xerox it here. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:20, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

  ??? You @Markbassett seem to be saying that the standard for inclusion of a chart is whether the chart impacted Trump's life? That would prohibit charts in biographies of anyone who died before the chart was created! —RCraig09 (talk) 06:04, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

• User:RCraig09 - I'm saying three things - First, UNDUE emphasis to the POV talking point, when there's just minimal coverage of a counting and in particular not of these week-by-week variations. Second - not for this BLP article, as it's had no enduring impact to him. (The Washington Post in particular seems irritated by that, and the Star ... well they skipped several weeks and then quit doing this at all back inn June.) Nor is it a personal decision or event that directed his life. Just not something for BLP. Third - if it's already covered in the details article, there's no need to also have it here. It's supposed to go the other way around. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 22:51, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

• Cheers @Markbassett. Fact-checking is not a wp:pov violation, and the highly notable nature of Trump's veracity issue ensures it doesn't violate wp:undue. Second, it's not about how a chart affects Trump (!); it's about whether it succinctly present facts about Trump. —RCraig09 (talk) 17:28, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

• User:RCraig09 Nope, ‘highly notable’ is disproven by this doesn’t have WEIGHT. A “highly notable” item is shown by facts in WEIGHT of actually *being* highly noted. It would get a pass on that for his BLP if it actually was significant in his life. But there is no BLP significance. There simply is not frequent mentions of numeric totals nor any impact resulting from them - and this OR of the week by week variation comparison is pretty much just an odd display of no meaning or impact. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:01, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

• Hello again, User:Markbassett! Lack of veracity is an integral part of Trump's life: a Google search for "Trump lies" yields 693,000,000 results (2019-11-12) and the oft-cited WashPost fact-checking specifically states that Trump made 13,435 false or misleading claims since inauguration. Are you saying that Trump's ignoring the fact-checkers implies that fact-checking results are not a notable element of his life? That's backwards. . . . And definitely: newspaper fact-checking isn't my WP:OR. . . . P.S. WashPost and TorontoStar show monthly and weekly totals, respectively, and are consistent; also, TorontoStar stopped in June 2019 because the fact-checker resigned and not because of "lack of interest"! —RCraig09 (talk) 05:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

• User:RCraig09 The article already covers that. Now as to my inputs for *this* proposal being added... Read the already-stated points in DISCUSSION section. The material in the proposed content is UNDUE, relevant hits down in the thousands not hundreds of millions. Try googling for the content proposed instead of vague topical area, looking at coverage of the Toronto Star defunct count, and for complex detailing of ‘this weeks count’ format which is the proposed display. If the proposal is to show Trump ignores fact-checkers (a) that’s unclear from a varying ‘this weeks count’ bar versus there already exists a better presentation in article text (and a whole details article) for the topic, and (b) the proposal as given has not met the WP:ONUS to show WP:V and WP:WEIGHT. Look, it’s loosely interesting that some WP editor crafted a mashup showing the two counters did not agree in details, but that just doesn’t have national press and has not had BLP effects on Trump to make it suitable for a BLP article. Not every possible presentation of everything possible belongs in the BLP article. And reiterating article content as a caption to a diagram that doesn’t show the captioned text... ? Does not relate to my inputs, put it down in general Discussion area. Markbassett (talk) 11:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

• Whoa. The "proposed content" (graph) shows the general topic (veracity), not merely weekly "complex detailing"; therefore the 693,000,000 Google hits figure is probative of wp:weight. . . . Googling —— "13,435" Trump (lies or false or misleading) —— (2019-11-12) shows 12,200 hits for this one WashPost finding alone. . . . Journalist fact-checking epitomizes WP:V! . . . The weekly chart is consistent with the monthly chart. . . Again, your reference that the charts have "not had BLP effects on Trump" has the analysis backward; content is supposed to describe Trump, and it does. . . . Good day, sir. —RCraig09 (talk) 16:26, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

• And for me... The diagram shows a complex detail of dozens of bars varying in height, with Toronto Star counts different from Washington Post. The google of “13,435” being only 12,200 out of over 1,300,000,000 Trump items would show UNDUE - except that’s not actually *in* the diagram. The count of either paper just wasn’t widely present week to week, let alone a comparing counts of these two across time that this diagram involves. Markbassett (talk) 01:35, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support. Good job to whoever created the chart. Wikipedia needs more graphs and figures to communicate info clearly and simply, not less. I suggest this chart also gets added to the Presidency of Donald Trump article, where its addition would allow us to trim some text which explains what goes on in the chart. Trump's lying is a defining feature of his character and of his presidency, so it clearly meets DUE. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:38, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - Undue, POV, and weight concerns as described by others above. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 15:28, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

@May His Shadow Fall Upon You: How can two fact-checkers' study of Trump's extremely notable^{(ergo not violating wp:undue or wp:weight)} veracity be a wp:pov violation? Your claim that fact-checking is POV, is the POV violation, true? —RCraig09 (talk) 17:20, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

@RCraig09 - The problem I have with this chart (as well as anything along these lines) is that the term "false and misleading" is not particularly clear. By its very nature, the chart cannot explain that. Does it include deliberate falsehoods? Does it include mistakes? You could go on and on. Because this is a BLP, we should be concerned about those kinds of issues. Discussion about alleged falsehoods should occur solely in prose. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 22:04, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Actually, @MHSFUY, the language "false and misleading" is clear: as one would expect of fact checkers, the charted data makes no judgment about Trump's deliberateness, as explained further in the sources. That explanation could be easily added to the image's caption here, if needed. —RCraig09 (talk) 07:42, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support Graphs are the very best way to portray information. You can't attend a conference without being exposed to a graph or chart. Oldperson (talk) 02:13, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

  @Oldperson: I agree, but nobody is saying graphs aren't a good way to portray information. My objection is that in this summary style article, we don't actually need this information. We only need the summary that says Trump tells an unprecedented number of lies. Let Veracity of statements by Donald Trump be the place where we go into the specifics of the frequency and trend of his lies. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:16, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

  By your interpretation of wp:ss, @Scjessey:, would this article have one single sentence describing Trump's false statements: "Trump has made an unprecedented number of false or misleading claims" ? Same question to User:Mandruss. —RCraig09 (talk) 16:24, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

  My preference would be that we would keep the first paragraph of Donald Trump#False statements (although I'm not a fan of the way the third sentence is currently worded) and eliminate the second. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:48, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

  No, one sentence would not be enough WP:WEIGHT for the (quantity × quality) of RS coverage. I would differ with Scjessey on this point, as I don't think four sentences would be enough weight, either. The status quo is fine with me for now. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:11, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose The charts would give undue weight to a POV talking point. In many cases the allegedly false statements are based on fact-check sites that are themselves biased, and can take a slight error and blow it up into a supposed bald-faced lie. There is already enough language in the article stating that Trump repeatedly makes false statements. We don't need the POV further amplified with charts and graphs. Besides, if this is how the Trump article is treated, why not do the same for every prominent politician? We could make a whole chart up showing statements like "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor", "57 states", etc. But of course that would be equally ridiculous. GlassBones (talk) 13:35, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

  It sounds like you're simply, personally accusing fact-checkers at The Washington Post and Toronto Star of being biased—which would undercut WP's reliance on WP:RSs. Also, adding the charts would allow deletion of some of the second paragraph of the "False statements" section of the article (suggested here by Scjessey), so adding the charts wouldn't be just "amplifying" existing textual content. —RCraig09 (talk) 17:58, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

  Just because Scjessey suggested that, you can't assume that his suggestion would be followed – but that's what you did.

  @GlassBones - If a large fraction of the Post's 13,435 fact-checking items could be shown to be exaggerations or worse, there is little doubt that Trump supporters would have ponied up the cash for a website to do just that. Since that website does not exist, we can assume that the Post's fact-checking is solid for the most part, and solid fact-checking is not simply "POV talking point". ―Mandruss ☎ 18:32, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

  @GlassBones: - your whataboutism doesn't fly, especially when Trump is a whole different animal. He lies as a policy. academic access needed. starship.paint (talk) 15:42, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support per e.g. SPECIFICO and Mgasparin. I have read through the Oppose votes, and the most prevalent argument there - that the graphs would represent too much "detail" - stand in contrast to the fact (by now widely accepted based on research about communication) that infographicss are often able to convey basic information to readers more quickly and easily than text. Also, there appear to be no serious concerns about the validity of the underlying data itself. Regards, HaeB (talk) 10:50, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

  @HaeB: My opposition argument is not that the the graphs are too much detail, but that they are too much detail for this top-level biography. The article Veracity of statements by Donald Trump already contains the graphs prominently in its lead, and that article is readily accessible from this article via the {{Main}} hatnote link at the top of the "False statements" section – the very section where the graphs are proposed. Unlike some editors, I don't claim my position is self-evident, but I just wanted to be sure you understood it. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:11, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

• Comment - I disagree with the POV claims. One should read the sources in the article, here - that Trump's falsehoods are HUGE. Believe me, many people say that. starship.paint (talk) 15:42, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support monthly graph only – A graph is indeed more communicative than many words, but two graphs are overkill, especially as they convey essentially the same message. — JFG ^talk 19:43, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

  @JFG: I had purposely graphed a second fact-checker's findings ("false claims"), as confirmation of the credibility of the first fact-checker's findings ("false or misleading claims". To me, the juxtaposed graphs project credibility. —RCraig09 (talk) 22:17, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - unencyclopedic, useless trivia. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:02, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Discussion summary (veracity graphs)

• The following list condenses eleven (11+) desktop-screenfuls of discussion, to help gauge consensus and reasoning.*::
• Though I consider the following to be "my" list, you are welcome to add or correct information to your own entry—provided you keep it extremely brief: about eight words per argument; I may edit. Longer arguments should be added in text outside this summary list. Use " <br> - " to separate lines within your box. —RCraig09 (talk) 16:08, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
• Thumbnail image is above. Link to image page: File:2017- Donald Trump - graph - false or misleading claims.png —RCraig09 (talk) 16:08, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Editor	Support or Strong Support	Oppose
MrX	-"excellent format for conveying info" -"possibly most compact way of conveying" -"consider people who seek visual information" (other images, electoral map) -Charts are about Trump's "core personality style" -"one of the most reported and enduring aspects of his life" -quantify and organize to "help our readers better understand"
Mandruss		-"Graphs are detail data" -Graphs not "summary level" (Consensus#37) -Already covered in prose -Already too much presidency content in this article -Graphs readily accessible in lead of Veracity -Generally bad policy to assume {{Main}} hatnote links will not be followed by readers interested in details
Scjessey		-"Shunt" "fine detail" to Veracity article, per WP:SS -Thumbnails are "tiny" -"specifics and trendlines... are of secondary importance" -"text is far more accessible than the graphs" (blind people)
SPECIFICO	-"factual diagram... quickly conveys... summary information" -Many web browser searchers (Users) "come for quick overview... not highly likely to pursue links to detail articles" -"the graphic delivers real value to a lot of our users"
PackMecEng		-"seems more appropriate for the Veracity article not here"
Jack Upland		-"I see no reason to include them"
Mgasparin	-"clear, easy to understand"... "covered by RS"
Symmachus Auxiliarus	-(no explicit "Support" but content is supportive) -"almost certainly... summary level... exactly sort of graphic most articles dream of"
BullRangifer	-"picture is worth a thousand words... serves very good purpose" -"RS and fact-checkers": WP depends on RSs
Pete	-"graph is summary, almost by definition" -"easily grasped by looking at the visual representation of data" -graphs "summarise information and present it in an easily-grasped form." -"defining characteristic of the man"
O3000	-"...defining part of his lifelong career"
Markbassett		- UNDUE emphasis - relatively nothing in coverage of counts week-by-week ... one discontinued for lack of interest. - Not BLP material, this count or chart has shown no enduring impact to his life. - In details article, no need to elevate / duplicate. - UNCLEAR - juxtaposing complex bar charts of weekly counts that don’t agree has unclear meaning. (Seems clearer and shorter to just write a narrative sentence.)
Snooganssnoogans	-"graphs to communicate info clearly and simply" -"defining feature of (Trump's) character and of his presidency... clearly meets DUE"
May His Shadow Fall Upon You		-"Undue, POV, ... weight concerns" per others above -In BLP: "discussion about falsehoods should occur solely in prose" -"term 'false and misleading' is not particularly clear"
Oldperson	-"Graphs are the very best way to portray information."
GlassBones		-"undue weight to a POV talking point"
HaeB	-Re detail: "infographics...often able to convey...more quickly and easily than text" -"no serious concerns about the validity of the underlying data"
JFG	-"graph is indeed more communicative than many words" -Monthly graph only: two graphs are "overkill"
Atsme		-"unencyclopedic, useless trivia"
___
RCraig09 (disclosure: is chart uploader)	-Chart, esp thumbnail, not unduly "detailed" under WP:SS    ↳ Text has long recited(implied consensus) more !"detail" -Falsehoods are Trump's hallmark: WP:DUE -Fact-checking is not NPOV breach or "negative trivia" -Agree that "Picture = 1000 words"    ↳ Charts=visuals convey substantive content instantly    ↳ No, 2"x3" thumbnail isn't "tiny": can see extent, trend    ↳ Chart language ("false or misleading claims") is clear

Why is this table necessary? This entire discussion can best be described by the headline: "In a repetition of almost every discussion, WP:SS is being ignored while politically polarized editors face off." -- Scjessey (talk) 20:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

First, as already noted, this List condenses eleven (11) desktop-screenfuls of discussion. More important, as the list itself proves, at least five Support editors have mentioned level of "detail" or "summary" or "compact(ness)", so your characterization that WP:SS is "ignored" is simply factually incorrect; and only two editors (both Oppose editors) initiated political issues such as POV. WP:SS states, for example: "Some readers need a lot of details on one or more aspects of the topic (links to full-sized separate subarticles)"; here, clearly, an image with two simple column graphs does not provide "a lot of details", especially at thumbnail size. Accordingly, most editors simply disagree with your personal opinion of WP:SS's application to this situation; they are not ignoring it. —RCraig09 (talk) 21:30, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm just not clear what your intent is here. If you're thinking one side will concede because the arguments are concisely summarized for closer scrutiny, I'm afraid you're wrong. If you're thinking one side can impose their will because the superior strength of their arguments has been "shown", I think you're asking for trouble. But this process could bear improvement and I try to be open to ideas for how to improve it. Show us how this table is worth the additional effort. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:28, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

I think the table will be helpful to a closer, but they will still have to read the detailed comments. This discussions does need to be formally closed by an uninvolved editor. Perhaps in a few days, if there are no further !votes.- MrX 🖋 16:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

@Mandruss: The intent is to distill essential arguments that are dispersed across eleven (11) desktop-screenfuls, to make reasoned consensus easier to gauge:

Scjessey summarizes his argument (diff) based on his "solid understanding" of WP:SS "from working on many summary style articles"; to your credit, at least you (@Mandruss) have honestly admitted (diff) that the summary-vs.-detail issue is one of where to draw the line. WP:SS is definitely applicable, but as I mentioned two paragraphs above (21:30, 10 Nov), five Support editors specifically contradict your and Scjessey's conclusion about summary-vs.-detail. Meanwhile, Opposers PackMecEng and Jack Upland offer non-policy-based arguments only brief opinions without specific policy citations, while Opposers Markbassett and MayHisShadowFallUponYou assert obviously-misplaced POV arguments against fact-finders or obviously-incorrect assertions re the wp:weight of Veracity itself.

The weight of reasoned consensus over ~six days and >7500 words outside this Discussion summary is clear. Absent new substantive arguments, it's time to re-introduce the charts into this article. Or do you think we need an outside admin to formally decide? —RCraig09 (talk) 16:24, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

In an ideal world we would have an uninvolved closer for every discussion of any significance. Since that isn't practical, we often just count !votes as a matter of expedience, but rarely when the margin is this small and the issue so strongly contested. So, unless you're prepared to omit the content as a "no consensus" situation – or the margin increases considerably – we'll need an uninvolved close – as MrX said above. It doesn't have to be an admin, just an experienced and competent editor, as per the information near the top of WP:ANRFC. And there would probably be a long wait due to the backlog; the last one was over five weeks from request to closure. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

@RCraig09: I think dismissing the comments of several editors as "non policy-based arguments" is pretty shabby and incorrect. I may not personally believe in their rationale, but their arguments do appear to be based on their own interpretations of actual policy, just as my argument is based on my interpretation of WP:SS. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

A fair point. I've changed my description above. —RCraig09 (talk) 18:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

To be clear, I like these graphs and I certainly think they have value in the veracity article. I'm just opposed to putting them in this article because it would lead to an inconsistent application of WP:SS, and perhaps even open the door for bringing back other detailed material we've successfully excised in a quest to limit the article's footprint. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Consistency? The second paragraph of that section of the article has long contained outdated detail and other agonizingly microscopic detail. —RCraig09 (talk) 18:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

That is a different conversation worth having (and indeed I mention this at the beginning of #False statements below), but the focus of this discussion is about the graphs. We cannot allow whataboutism to be the deciding factor. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:39, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Let somebody else assess the consensus and decide. As someone who has closed a few long and complicated RfCs like this, I can say that charts like the above can be helpful, but not when they are made by a person heavily involved in the RfC. If I were closing this I would likely ignore the above chart completely and just make my own in Excel if I thought it was necessary to get a clearer view of the consensus. ~Awilley (talk) 17:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Someone: please begin the process for formally requesting an external admin/reviewer to decide. —RCraig09 (talk) 18:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion was opened a mere six days ago, although it feels like three weeks. MrX said Perhaps in a few days, if there are no further !votes. and I'm fine with that. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

False statements

Just to expand on the discussion about the veracity graphs, I think that entire second paragraph is also too much detail for a summary style article. The first paragraph describes Trump's mendacity as unprecedented and then we have an entire paragraph and (potentially) two graphs that try to quantify what sources mean by that. Surely that is more appropriate for Veracity of statements by Donald Trump? Do we really need to try to explain it here? -- Scjessey (talk) 15:04, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I think there's an issue that's been overlooked here. We editors are experienced users of WP and undoubtedly more interested than the median WP user in further detail we find clicking links on any WP page we view. But this page comes up near the top of the screen on web browser searches and many users come here for a quick overview or curiosity about what's significant. These users are not highly likely to pursue all the links to detail articles. They also may not process bare written information as quickly as they process information that's also highlighted by a graphic. There may be data as to the click-through behavior of our users, but I have no idea whether it's accessible to us. At any rate, does anyone doubt that it would confirm the behavior I've described? If I am correct, the graphic delivers real value to a lot of our users and should be included here in Trump's bio. SPECIFICO talk 15:22, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

For me, the key information about this section is that Trump is a liar on an unprecedented level. The specifics and trendlines of those lies are of secondary importance, and I don't think there's "real value" to the casual reader at all. But I respect your difference of opinion. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:29, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

That issue is not being overlooked, it's being strongly disputed. For my related comments, see the preceding subsection. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't see any discussion or dispute of this surmise about actual user behavior. Diff, please? SPECIFICO talk 15:41, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

My comments have been about the inherent illogic of that argument.[2] As for actual user behavior:

• If a user can't be bothered to click through to an article with more detail, they are demonstrating that their interest level is fairly superficial. That user is not going to pay much attention to the graphs anyway.
• Even if your theory were proven, it would be a relatively short-term consideration, as older generations are replaced by new generations of more web-savvy users who are far less averse to clicks.

And so on. I question the benefit of this line of discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:57, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I am concerned with the actual behavior and preferences of our current users. Your views appear to be opinions about what WP users should be doing or what some other group of users might be doing in the future. If your wishes come true, we can change the article. Meanwhile, I think this discussion addresses a core issue. It makes sense to provide for the needs and expectations of both dedicated link-clickers and casual top-level readers. Thanks for the elaboration. SPECIFICO talk 16:08, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Two observations dovetail nicely here: (1) these thumbnail charts show even lazy readers instantly (as only a graphic can do, and at a summary level) the level and intensification of falsehoods that will characterize Trump in perpetuity^{"a defining part of his lifelong career" —per Objective3000, above} (meeting Consensus #37), and (2) readers^{"web-savvy" or not} easily pursue details by clicking on the image or of course going to the Veracity sub-article. This combination of observations makes these charts ideal for a high-level article as well as the sub-article. —RCraig09 (talk) 16:35, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

To be clear, nobody is doubting the elegance of these graphs in what they are trying to achieve. The question is whether or not these graphs constitute extra detail that is best left to the main article on Trump's mendacity. I firmly believe they do not belong in this article, because all they do is reinforce what has already been said, and that is something the other article should be doing, not the summary. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

We might as well get rid of all graphical presentations of data, and point our readers towards source documents such as CSV data, so that they can see the details in context. I mean, if we're following that particular argument all the way. I think people come to Wikipedia to get information presented in an accessible fashion. We're not just a collection of links, after all. --Pete (talk) 21:26, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Right. Why is this so sensitive? Couldn't we use the same "oppose" arguments to remove the Hollywood Star, the Inauguration photo, and other illustrations. And they're also too small to parse unless we click on the thumbnails. SPECIFICO talk 21:56, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Again, my opposition to the inclusion of these graphs has nothing whatsoever to do with the inclusion of any other thing, including images. My argument for exclusion is based solely on the solid understanding of I have on WP:SS that I have gleaned from working on many summary style articles over the years. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:01, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I really hate whataboutism, which pretends that we could be consistent on these things across the board – and often presents false equivalences. I'm afraid this business is far too messy, chaotic, and complex for that. Please limit discussion about the graphs to the graphs. You're free to propose removal of the Hollywood Star, the Inauguration photo, and other illustrations separately (or BOLDly remove them, as I don't think any of them have an explicit consensus). ―Mandruss ☎ 07:13, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

My point isn't about photographs. It's about presenting information to our readers in the best possible fashion. A visual summary of data sourced elsewhere. Graphs of Trump's lies (or other 2-variable data ) are commonplace in the media for precisely these reasons. --Pete (talk) 08:36, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I was addressing SPECIFICO, as indicated by my indentation level. As for your comment – I think people come to Wikipedia to get information presented in an accessible fashion. – we are in full agreement. But I think the Veracity article is quite accessible, and you apparently don't. I don't think further debate is going to get us any closer to agreement on that point. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:43, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

When you Google search for "donald trump falsehoods", what's the first Wikipedia article you see? Answer: Not Donald Trump, but – wait for it – Veracity of statements by Donald Trump. Same for "donald trump lies". ―Mandruss ☎ 09:03, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I think the intention of our encyclopaedia here is to present information relevant to Don Trump in an accessible fashion for the benefit of our readers. Is there some reason why information should be presented once only? It's not as if we are short on space, surely? As for mendacity, other editors have made the point that it is a defining characteristic of this person. It's not as if we don't cover information in this article that is repeated in other more detailed articles. The graph is a summary display, not a detailed listing. --Pete (talk) 09:18, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

You are not saying anything that hasn't already been said – and countered – multiple times in this discussion. Circular argument is a pointless waste of space and time. I and others think our arguments are more convincing, which is why they are our arguments. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:28, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Countered in that an opposing opinion has been expressed, maybe. I reject your opinion, which seems to be that it's okay to give our readers a graphical display of one of Trump's defining characteristics, just not in the Trump article. --Pete (talk) 17:10, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

And I (we) reject yours. We are drawing a line in different places, agreeing on the relevant factors but assigning them different weights. It happens a lot in this business. The mistake is in believing that there is one correct answer, a very common mistake. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:31, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry? I haven't offered an opinion on this matter. Which of my factual statements do you find problematic? Or is it my view on your opinion that you disagree with? Could you be more specific, please? --Pete (talk) 06:33, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

My misunderstanding. After a several re-reads, some yoga meditation, and an aborted reply, you're "rejecting my opinion" as to only one narrow point, that it's okay to give our readers a graphical display of one of Trump's defining characteristics, just not in the Trump article. Ok, rejection received and rejected. The fact that it's related to one of Trump's defining characteristics does not automatically qualify it for inclusion in my view. You could make the same argument for all kinds of additional content about the falsehoods thing, but that content wouldn't automatically qualify for this article, either. I suspect you would agree with that, which means you are prepared to draw a line on that. As I said, we are drawing that line in different places, and there is no "correct" place for that line.

In anticipation of your rebuttal, the fact that it's graphical does not automatically qualify it for inclusion in my view, either, although I clearly hear your opinion that it should. That's a matter of editorial judgment, and editors will disagree on editorial judgment. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:25, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

• To “nobody is doubting the elegance of these charts”, I think that’s incorrect - a month by month iteration is complicated, not elegant; and of two counts that don’t agree and isn’t obvious as to what it’s saying ... meh. The things said above on how this would “characterize Trump in perpetuity” seem more aspirational goal OR than something actual being summarized or of an actual impact in his life. I don’t know if he’s even much aware of these two counters, let alone a monthly chart, but this isn’t showing something that’s affected him much. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:38, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm pretty that sure most readers with a sixth grade education would not struggle to understand the two dimensions of these charts. This is not an article about what affects Trump, so your comment in that regard is disqualifying in my opinion. Trump's frequent falsehoods are one of the most reported and enduring aspects of his life. Anything we can do to quantify and organize the extent of his lying will help our readers better understand the subject.- MrX 🖋 11:39, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I have a sixth grade education, and I understood the charts. SPECIFICO talk 12:09, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Markbassett, Trump's unprecedented mendacity affects everyone else, and RS and fact-checkers have documented this unprecedented phenomenon. That some editors don't think he's the biggest liar ever is irrelevant here, and their personal POV should not cause them to ignore Wikipedia's dependence on what RS say. Their allegiance should be to RS, not to protecting and white-washing Trump. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:03, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

User:BullRangifer I'll cover the three points I raised again with detail, as the items of my input. If you want to talk about your view of the topic area in general or that opinions vary is fine, verging out of AGF not so much. But in doing this you're just not speaking to the objections for this specific edit. If you can dispute these points of evidence and policy, then do so. If you can't, then accept that maybe not every edit belongs.

• UNDUE - the bio of Trump should not have Toronto Star above the proportion of coverage that has ... and while the press has snarked at a few things, they do not typically go to the rest nor overall total or discussing these summary opinions in particular. By simple Google counts I see Trump has an absurd 1,910,000,000 hits -- but Trump and "Toronto Star" Google I get 793,000. So the Star's coverage of him or any mention of the two is 4 ten-thousandths of the total. If you make it about the fact-count in particular Trump and "Daniel Dale" it is 198,000 hits -- one ten-thousandth. Basically ALL coverage around his counting in total is down in the microscopic level of coverage, and almost all of that is about hitting a new level or that counting exists. This week-by-week coverage that was just recently done ... obviously will be down at the hundred-thousandths or -millionths level. It does not deserve a BLP mention, let alone the highlighted prominence of imagery.
• No Enduring Impact This article is Trump's BLP, and in terms of what effect or importance these weekly displays have had to his life, or even the existence of counts -- there seems not even awareness that they exist, and if it has made no difference then it just doesn't matter.. This isn't a personal characteristic or event in his life, it's just pushing a POV talking point that has not had any importance and as shown just is not significantly covered.
• Unclear OK, two similar displays of per-period total next to each other ... So, is this trying to show that Washington and Toronto disagree about 'false' ? (Well they do, but I don't think this is a way to show that.) Is this trying to show that 'False and misleading' is mostly just 'misleading' by how they differ ? Is this to show that counts strongly disagree week-by-week ? It's just not clear what either of them is showing nor what the comparison is supposed to show. and if it isn't at all clear without a caption - then a diagram isn't helping. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 22:37, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

In my army days, if the officers wanted explanations as to why we troops weren't buzzing around doing trooply things, we'd explain at great length in a certain mode of dialect. "BBB" we called it: "Bullshit Baffles Brains". Mark, none of the above makes any sense or has any relation to policy here. --Pete (talk) 23:16, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Markbassett, Pete is right. I'm not sure how to characterize your arguments comments, but BBB is a good description. They seem like a lot of words to get around documenting what RS say.

The "impact on his life" argument is especially specious (for some odd reason it only gets trotted out for dealing with negative information about him) because Trump is teflon, so nothing sticks to him, and therefore, by your reasoning, we should just ignore what RS say and not mention anything which doesn't have some "impact" on him

That is totally unlike how we deal with the same types of content for everyone else, because they are normal and the reality which RS document about them actually has an impact on their lives. No, forget the subjective "personal impact" argument. We should treat him like we treat every effing human being described by RS. "Trump Exemption Policy"(*) is not a real Wikipedia policy. Your three "comments" are not worthy of retort. They pretty much ignore many of our policies. Trump's "teflonness" does not justify protecting and whitewashing him. Look to RS for guidance, not to Trump. His guidance can be safely ignored.

(*) FYI, the "Trump Exemption Policy" describes how content regarding Trump is held to a much higher bar by his supporters here than for any other notable person. This does not happen to other people. Such kid glove treatment (only for him) is not based on policy, especially WP:PUBLICFIGURE, which lowers the bar for public persons, and Trump is THE most public person. The bar for inclusion of any type of content and/or unproven allegation (and this isn't an unproven allegation) is very low for public figures. We aren't even in this territory.

No special exemptions for Trump. Okay? Let's just apply our policies to him in exactly the way we do for every other public person. -- BullRangifer (talk) 23:58, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

User:BullRangifer reply for ping (what another one ?) Yes, WEIGHT for a week by week chart does not exist, no need to get huffy with me over the fact. And 'no enduring impact' has been discussed before in whether items are just story-du-jour or don't belong in a BLP before. No point in getting angry over these charts not having that either. The rest of your post seems not asking about my 3 input points or about the charts topic, but I will suggest that if normal BLPs don't have questions of negative trivia being shoved at them as often, ehhh, that also seems just a fact. No special exceptions for Trump criticisms either, Okay ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:33, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

To the extent that the charts are asserted to "duplicate" content that's already in the text, consider: would it be wiser to insert the charts and remove (some of) the text? Humans absorb visual representations nearly instantaneously, whereas abstract textual/language representations (coming along much later in evolution) are much harder to process—the "picture is worth a thousand words" phenomenon mentioned above. . . . . . . . Also consider: the existing text goes into a fair amount of non-summary detail that Opposers object to in the charts! And non-summary "details" can only be seen in the charts if they click on them—presumably because they want immediate access to more detail. . . . . P.S. The thumbnail chart—2x3 inches on my desktop computer—is not "tiny" except on a cellphone. —RCraig09 (talk) 07:25, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Even if the graphs are included, I don't see much duplication unless we speak in very general terms. The closest we come to duplication is the midterm election spike, and even there the prose gives information not readily apparent in the graphs: For the seven weeks leading up to the midterm elections, it rose to an average of thirty per day from 4.9 during his first hundred days in office. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:50, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

The text is far more accessible than the graphs. Consider what a visually impaired person is supposed to do with a graph, for example. A picture is worth zero words to a blind person. I get why some editors want these graphs, I really do, but I just think those editors have a fundamental misunderstanding of WP:SS. By moving the "summary needle" to accommodate the graphs, it effectively moves it to let a whole lot of other shit back in that we have successfully excised. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:35, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Who says text is far more accessible than the graphs? I'm sure you have heard of Dyslexia, Hyperlexia, and ADHD. As long as we have the important information in words and graphics, everyone wins. (Besides, the graphs can be summarized in ALT tags.)- MrX 🖋 13:51, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

For those people with dyslexia et al, they can navigate to the main article. It's like everyone here has suddenly forgotten what "summary" means. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:56, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't think many people understood what was being proposed when they supported passage of #37. I'll wear that as the proposer. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:01, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Red herrings

Any normal article welcomes the addition of an auxiliary graph to present a visual indication of data. The comments about blind or dyslexic readers are valid, but it is pointless trying to craft pertinent guidelines here in a political article. Wikistyle on these matters may be found elsewhere as accepted over the many years we've been doing this job of presenting information. We should comply with style - of course - but may I suggest that any editor in this current discussion quote relevant guidelines at WP:ACCESSIBILITY rather than reaching into the air?

Wikipedia isn't short on space. Typically we present information in the body of an article, in summary form in the lede, and if the topic warrants it, in more detail in specialised articles. Obviously we can't jam the entire article into the WP:LEDE - that's not what it's for - but I suggest that if material in the body warrants its own specialised article, as this topic does here, then the topic is worthy of inclusion in the lede; it's not something that is seen as minor.

The nature of a graph is to summarise information and present it in an easily-grasped form. Graphs are commonplace in Wikipedia articles. Currently our lede text says "Trump has made many false or misleading statements…" and I suggest that this is something that could apply to any politician. Trump takes it far beyond that anodyne statement, and it is a defining characteristic of the man; a point made by many in discussion above, and not seriously challenged. Adding a graph to underline the significance is hardly controversial in itself.

The only point here should be whether it belongs in the lede according to MOS guidelines, or in the body. --Pete (talk) 14:53, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Why are we talking about the lead? ―Mandruss ☎ 15:26, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

@Skyring: By your rationale, we should eliminate all the daughter articles we created in support of WP:SS and shove the whole lot into this article. I don't disagree that the graphs are useful, but I regard them as finer detail best left to the appropriate daughter article. By the way, "The Rouge Clupeidae" will be my new band name. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:33, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Let me be the first to point out that you're mixing languages. That's Clupeidae rubicundus. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:40, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

But it doesn't sound anywhere near as good, and it least French evolved from vulgar Latin. I still chuckle whenever I think of WP:ROUGE. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:45, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Pete makes a good point about due weight as a determining factor for inclusion in the lead of an article:

"but I suggest that if material in the body warrants its own specialised article, as this topic does here, then the topic is worthy of inclusion in the lede; it's not something that is seen as minor."

When one reads a large mother article of significance, like this one, it will have many sections, a number of which are short summaries of SPINOFF sub-articles. One could get the mistaken impression (gained from visually comparing the size of sections) that many of those short summaries are of less due weight than the longer sections which do not link to a sub-article. That is often the exact opposite of reality. Those "longer sections which do not link to a sub-article" have so little due weight that they don't deserve a sub-article, and thus only short mention in the lead.

To properly gauge due weight, one should look at the sub-article, and then realize that it often has much more due weight than a section not leading to a sub-article. It was so weighty that we could not give it full coverage in the mother article. So keep that in mind when determining what and how much should be mentioned in the lead. Give those sub-articles their due weight in the lead of the mother article. -- BullRangifer (talk) 18:12, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Why are we talking about the lead? ―Mandruss ☎ 18:40, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

"By your rationale, we should eliminate all the daughter articles we created in support of WP:SS and shove the whole lot into this article." No, Scjessey, That's not the case. See, there's a reason I used the phrase red herrings above.

My point is that we should stick to policy, unless there is a compelling reason to WP:IAR. If you want to talk about blind people as a reason to not have a graph in this article, that has already been discussed at a higher level and the Manual of Style tells us what to do. --Pete (talk) 20:14, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I was trying to make a point about how cutting text in favor of the graphs would be foolish, but my rationale for excluding the graphs remains that they represent too much detail for a summary style article. Bear in mind that this is my view despite my personal distaste for the odious subject of the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:18, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not advocating cutting text at all, unless it's the sort of data-dense material that is best put into graphical form. I think with Don Trump, having a graphical representation of the volume of falsehoods over time presents information that is readily accessible without having to resort to "pre-digested" statements, or looking deeper into the source. It's available at a glance, because that is the way we tend to assimilate information. --Pete (talk) 20:56, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

• WEIGHT? Think this said that backwards. WEIGHT is *against* the chart being present at all, there factually is not prominence to a series of weekly counts for Trump. A few noted instances and midterm election period, yes. Abstract counts for every week, no. A weekly numbers proportion of coverage or a chart of such has not shown much WEIGHT. On a related note...weekly number x and y and z also are not in the article so the chart just isn’t a summary of something here. Those are just the facts... Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:57, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Sources

Donation of salary to charities

No mention of donation of presidential salary to charity. Why not? Article is heavily biased on all levels. 99.42.89.21 (talk) 09:14, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

JFK and Herbert Hoover also donated their salaries to charity, and their Wikipedia articles don't mention it either. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 13:50, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

The White House always makes an announcement but the media rarely bother to report it. And IIRC his donations are not to charities; they are to a department of the government. [3] In fact that was his pledge: to donate it to government agencies.[4] -- MelanieN (talk) 20:48, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Still worth mentioning with a brief sentence. — JFG ^talk 01:34, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Donating $200,000 out of several million times that much in US Federal expenditure? And nobody reports or discusses it? Might as well report what he ate for lunch. It's certainly not "biased". What's the bias? SPECIFICO talk 01:42, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

I have no objection to briefly mentioning that "Trump donated his second- and third-quarter salary to U.S. government agencies." If there are sources that verify he has consistently donated his salary throughout his term, then that would work as well.- MrX 🖋 16:16, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

I see no reason to doubt that he's continued to do it. What's $100,000 to him? It's at least one "promise kept". If we're going to mention it at all, I would simply say "Trump donates his salary to U.S. government agencies." or at most "Trump donates his quarterly salary as president to U.S. government agencies."[5] -- MelanieN (talk) 16:35, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

I'd support your suggestion. Perhaps more precise thus: "Ever since he took office, Trump has donated his presidential salary to various U.S. government agencies." (with your citation) — JFG ^talk 20:54, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

MelanieN, actually this is an interesting point. Trump's history of financial dealings around his campaign shows him to be incredibly reluctant to hand over money if he doesn't have to. Do we have concrete evidence from independent sources that this has happened? Guy (help!) 00:35, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

It is announced by White House press release or a "White House official". I think if the named agency DIDN'T get the promised money, somebody would say so, at least by anonymous leak. I feel pretty sure that this actually happens. The press [6] doesn't seem to have any doubts, and PolitiFact rates it as true[7]. If there was cheating going on, some enterprising reporter would have found it out by now. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:06, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, except that as discussed above, the whole thing is small potatoes and meaningless one way or the other. Even the Washington press might have higher value news targets to pursue. SPECIFICO talk 03:12, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

We would need to establish that there's anything noteworthy about this. Nobody has addressed that test. The amount of money is insignificant to the US Gov't, and insignificant to Trump, There's a wide variation in the amount the US Gov't spends, net of salary, travel, etc. from president to president. There's no source I have seen that explains why this is consequential or significant. If anyone can present a case for its noteworthiness, we can get into some detailed discussion. SPECIFICO talk 22:09, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

I think the fact that we don't mention this for previous presidents who did it is significant. That suggests we leave it out of this biography too. WEIGHT also suggests leaving it out. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:25, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

If we do mention it, it needs to be in context. While it is true Trump has donated his $400K salary to charity, the taxpayer is (thus far) on the hook for $114 million in golf outings, which is over 270 years worth of that salary. These are rough numbers, but you can see some of the analysis for them here. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:25, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

doth protest too much, methinks. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:05, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Impeachment inquiry report - and a look ahead for the lede

The impeachment inquiry report has been released by the House Intelligence Committee. So, this is where I think we are now, based on this report:

A 2019 House impeachment inquiry found that in the Trump–Ukraine scandal, Trump solicited foreign interference in the 2020 U.S. presidential election to help his re-election bid, and then obstructed the inquiry itself. The inquiry reported that Trump withheld military aid and a White House invitation in order to influence Ukraine to announce investigations into Trump's political rivals. The inquiry reported Trump conditioning military aid and a head of state meeting on Ukraine's announcements of investigations into Trump's political rivals. (edited per MelanieN's suggestions)

... and looking at the bigger picture, this is where I think we'll eventually end up next year:

In [year], Trump was impeached by the House of Representatives for [charges X, Y, Z]. A 2019 House impeachment inquiry found that in the Trump–Ukraine scandal, Trump solicited foreign interference in the 2020 U.S. presidential election to help his re-election bid, and then obstructed the inquiry itself. Trump was acquitted by the Senate in [year] and completed his term in office.

For the sake of brevity, at the end of this, it would be too much detail to mention investigations, military aid and a White House visit. starship.paint (talk) 01:14, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

I think your proposed entry to the lead for the current situation is OK, except that "The inquiry reported Trump conditioning military aid" is a very unclear phrasing, particularly the somewhat obscure use of "condition" as a transitive verb, or worse yet, a transitive gerund. How about "The inquiry reported that Trump made military aid and a White House meeting conditional on Ukraine announcing investigations into one of Trump's political rivals." Even more clear, particularly to non-native English speakers, "The inquiry reported that Trump withheld military aid and a White House invitation to get (or force?) Ukraine to announce investigations into one of Trump's political rivals." No comment on your crystal ball readout. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:56, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

@MelanieN: - edited, though not just one of Trump's political rivals - don't forget the DNC (server). starship.paint (talk) 14:02, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Just one more nit pick. (Sorry, I once worked as a copy editor so I can't help picking nits. And in this case I am fixing a problem with the wording I myself suggested.) The phrase "a White House invitation to influence Ukraine" sounds like it he was inviting Zelensky to influence Ukraine. How about "a White House invitation in order to influence Ukraine"? ("Influence" is much better word, BTW - thanks.) -- MelanieN (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

• User:Starship.paint Suggest working on body or working on this as the body and holding off on lead wording for now. It is premature to begin things with Lead wording - it’s just demonstrating brainstorming creative writing expressing OR and subjective editor views in absence of some body and cites. Also, it would then be prejudicial to the body content in the natural urge to force body to support a desired lead, rather than being unattached and objective in capturing facts for the body and then figuring out summary if any for lead mention. When there is notable body content, also please note lead discussion will be incomplete without considering edits to the existing lead content on this topic. Suggest that you work on the body content first and let lead evolve later per WP:Lead guideline. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:40, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree that it’s a bit too early to be be expressing treatment of the second point (though it’s not necessarily unhelpful either), but how is the comment generally falling under the umbrella OR, as you assert? Reliable sources have already weighed in heavily on these matters, and Starship isn’t incorrect on any major point, so far as I can see. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 05:06, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion of what to put in the summary area for the article is running on “here’s what I think” and then wordsmithing from there... There’s no identified RS being drawn from here, content is not oriented on DUE or NPOV or any WP pillar... It’s simply portraying itself as a creative writing collaboration. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:57, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Wordsmithing is part of the process. This is the lede; the reliable sources are in the body, and I think it would be rather ridiculous to assert that this rather neutrally-worded contribution doesn’t reflect the factual information in more reliable sources than we can shake a proverbial stick at. That means, essentially by default, it’s both due and reflecting NPOV. If you’re going to make such assertions, either demonstrate that this is the case, or ask the proposing editor to make their case further. Otherwise this is just “alphabet soup”. I genuinely don’t see how this violates, or runs afoul, of a single policy that you cited. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 01:10, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Um, Nope, no the sources were NOT at the body content, because there wasn’t any. That was my point — the body content needs to be worked on first. This was just jumping to writing a Lead, a supposed summary of the article but in this case a ‘summary’ of something not there and done with no visible sources. The lead is not for news bulletins independent of the article. Word smithing to better capture V or to improve NPOV is fine. But those come from explicitly given cites and this was just working on making grammar better from an OR stated basis “this is where I think”. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:50, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

When he has been formally impeached, I would like to see that mentioned somewhat more prominently, preferably in the first paragraph, rather than only buried deep down in the fifth paragraph. The latter may have been appropriate as long as we were only dealing with calls for impeachment or preliminary proceedings, but being an impeached president is fundamentally different from simply being president; it means that his legitimacy as president is legally called into question until his trial has concluded. The impeachment is too important for its current obscure, difficult to find place in the lead section. Keep in mind that it is far more common to be president of the United States than to be an impeached president. For instance we could change the first paragraph to "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States, and was impeached on [date]. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality". (Certainly the impeachment is of far greater significance than his business or TV career, and ought to be mentioned before that). --Tataral (talk) 18:05, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

User:Tataral mmm, premature. For now that’s advocating a fairly explicit break with NPOV. Generally we at least mostly lean on WEIGHT. Plus guidelines such as WP:LEAD for structure with MOS:FIRST for the first line. And somewhat we use precedent which would seem to mean less than the current amount gets put to the end of para 1, after a summary of his accomplishments in office. Pushing a negative to the top unduly just looks like bias. At any rate, while eventually there may be enough WEIGHT about an impeachment to deserve prominence (and maybe there won’t be), it is not going to be there this week. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

The first word of my comment was when. The topic of this discussion is "a look ahead for the lede." The discussion is about changes that will be necessary in the lead in the coming weeks, following a formal impeachment, not about changes we need to make today. Clearly the impeachment has increased tremendously in significance (and RS coverage) since it first became an issue and since it was first added to the article. This is why the original location of the material in the lead, the end of the fifth paragraph, originally chosen for material that dealt with mere discussion of possible impeachment, will no longer be sufficient when he has been formally impeached. Most discussion of Trump in RS are about impeachment and related matters, because by then it will give the impression of inappropriately burying the most definiting feature of his presidency, the consistently most widely covered issue in RS (impeachment and related matters/investigations). It's clearly far more important than his TV career years ago or his business career (he's his country's 275th wealthiest person according to Forbes, so he was never Bill Gates or anything like that; most people haven't even heard of the guy who occupies the 274th place). --Tataral (talk) 03:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

'When he has been formally impeached', i.e. the day of vote, is premature. Come back a week or month AFTER a vote of impeachment and there will be actual WEIGHT and actual body content from actual cites in existence so one can *ask* what it justifies in larger prominence and what language. The promotion of speculative edits by proposing a line 1 position is jumping the question; that makes a break with NPOV, LEAD, and precedent; and creates an appearance of article bias. For now, this all seems just based on personal wishes ("I would like to see that") and OR statements said as conclusions instead of as relevant questions ("means that his legitimacy as president is legally called into question"; "the impeachment is of far greater significance than his business or TV career"; etcetera). I'm thinking the question will come up in less than a week with at least something to work with beyond speculation and personal wishes. It's premature until after that. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:45, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

If you are not interested in taking part in a constructive discussion on "a look ahead for the lede", you don't need to participate in, and certainly not derail, the discussion specifically on "a look ahead for the lede". It's perfectly normal and appropriate on article talk pages to discuss the need for updates in the near future, and how to best approach them when the time comes. --Tataral (talk) 09:30, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

User:Tataral ummm, perhaps you have difficulty noting that I am participating? First at the Starship part about the existing report to say work on body, and hold off on speculating further. My constructive participation in your sub-subthread has been pointing out that it is more so premature and now treading on NPOV (WEIGHT), LEAD, and precedent. The “how to best approach” I think I’ve laid out — simply first have events and cites develop (which is NOTNEWS not the first day), then make edits to content (as DUE), and then make any lead edits (per LEAD) with some consideration for precedent. What other examples are you thinking where your subthread is “normal”? I can only recall a case about Inquiry asking if the scope will include Impeachment, and you didn’t seem to be asking question about scope. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:59, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

It`s spelled LEAD 2600:1702:2340:9470:1D7C:7EA1:A60F:FFC8 (talk) 19:59, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

At any rate he has now been impeached and of course it is of absolutely massive momentous historical significance. PunxtawneyPickle (talk) 04:48, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Get consensus on lead edits in TALK first please

Just a note: I am reverting out good-faith edits recently done to the bottom of lead per the local convention - for this article, get consensus on lead edits in TALK before any changes

I think just three edits ...

• User:Daviddwd - edits on | 6 December adding the 3 December House Intelligence Committee report.
• User:IagoQnsi - edits on | 10 December replacing that with the 10 Democrat announcement seeking two articles of impeachment.
• User:Popcornduff - copyedits later on 10 December Copyedit.

Folks can weigh in whether they're in favor of doing event-by-event edits, but meanwhile I'm reverting back for the general principle, and also note it seems likely Thursday will be the vote for act of impeachment so these edits seem obsolete soon anyway.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:13, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

There is no such local convention or general principle, as I said at your UTP before I saw this. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:02, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

User:Mandruss - Well, you're kind of behind events on this BRD discussion. It's a sidenote, but of course a local convention exists -- history shows that getting consensus of lead edits on TALK has been done many times before. This is an fairly unusual thing, a local convention. It's not the only way edits get done to lead here, or even the most common way, but it is one way and often done for anything above a copyedit to the lead. I think it's from this being such a contentious page that there is an expectation that almost anything in lead gets reverted/altered and strongly favors longer-standing material, so best start BRD with the D part of things instead of edit warring. In any case, note the title of this section says "please" and that this section is fully pinging the editors of the line (who were silently running each over) for some WP:BRD discussion of the line. Feel free to discuss the content yourself if you wish. But again, it's a bit late -- someone else undid my remove before even your first post to my UTP let alone your second post or this so ... well, it's all fairly chaotic flux about breaking news and academic by now let alone next week, but if they show up here we maybe discuss things and edit the line again. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:11, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Uhh, so... in that case can I make my edits please? I just removed a few redundant words. Popcornduff (talk) 15:33, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Popcornduff, you do not need permission to edit this article (as you have been doing) in accordance with policy and guidelines. SPECIFICO talk 15:47, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, Mandruss Markbassett has reverted me, so I'd like to get consensus for the edit rather than edit war. Popcornduff (talk) 15:49, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

@Popcornduff: Actually, it was Markbassett (talk · contribs) who WRONGLY reverted you, and I think your perfectly acceptable changes have already been restored. Markbassett keeps on trying to come up with these strange rules about how and when people can edit this article, together with rambling and largely incomprehensible justifications for them, most of which I just ignore. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

All right. Thanks for catching my error. Sorry for the confusion, Mandruss. Corrected. Popcornduff (talk) 23:10, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

User:Popcornduff Thanks for the desire to follow WP:BRD. But as mentioned to Mandruss above, my remove was undone within 10 minutes, and tomorrow seems likely to alter all that anyway. I’d generally say your edits were minor and good, doing a bit of trimming. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:20, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

@Markbassett: Did you even bother to review the single edit Popcornduff performed? What is this nonsense about how you would "generally say your edits were minor and good," as if there are several edits to review? The reality of the situation is that you ham-fistedly reverted edits from more than one editor, using an edit summary that was inappropriate at best. And don't pretend this is a case of BRD. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:25, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

User:Scjessey (replying to ping) Obviously I already linked Popcorn edits and typified them at the start, and remarked on them again here. It’s not nonsense that they were minor and good, but reverting para 5 to what the version of 6 December involved them. In principle this is WP:BRD, though in practice it is BoldBoldBold Revert Derevert Discuss. I think it would need another revert to get a clean start of actually talking about that section’s content, but will wait & see as my expectation is the whole thing is moot tomorrow. You should regard this thread as done. Over and out Markbassett (talk) 01:03, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Again, you are talking about Popcornduff's "edits" in the plural. There was a single, perfectly acceptable edit. You reverted a series of edits by different editors and then tried to discuss them in a single thread. This is a terrible, confusing approach. Do not do this again. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:12, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

@Markbassett: Adding to what others have said: given that the article already has a WP:BLUELOCK, there is really no need to put up any additional barriers to editing (such as a rule that all lead edits require consensus). You already have to know the ropes a bit to even touch this page. –IagoQnsi (talk) 23:22, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Thanks for the ping. Others seem to have run off putting forth a view that I said “rule” or “requirement”, when careful reading shows I did not. I reverted edits and started discussion with a section titled as a request statement guiding you to what I feel is commonly done. (In the context of it being the current event of the often contentious lead and your perhaps being unfamiliar to this article edit tumult.) But In this case we started beyond that, at ordinary WP:BRD. I think this might be going to wind up as a separate revert again to cleanly restart talking about that line’s content...but will wait & see as I expect the whole thing is made moot by tomorrow. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:38, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Markbassett, your edit summary in the revert was a command: "for this article, get consensus on lead edits in TALK before any changes" -- if you didn't intend it that way, maybe word things a little differently next time and provide an actual reason for the revert? SPECIFICO talk 01:48, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the “Please” got into this title but not there. Thanks for the suggestions, cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:10, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

User:IagoQnsi - Thanks for the ping. In this case we obviously started beyond the pre-discussion often done here, and are at WP:BRD. I think this might go to a separate revert again to cleanly restart talking about that line’s content, but will wait & see as I expect tomorrow events make that line toast anyway. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:00, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I believe we should all remember that nobody owns this article, and "per local convention" is not policy - it's baloney! PunxtawneyPickle (talk) 04:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Consensus item #6 regarding this article’s lead section

Hello all! Regarding consensus item #6 concerning the lead section — “Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct” — I’ve read through the two linked discussions for/against inclusion: from my reading, it seems the decision tilted against inclusion owing to Wikipedia precedent of including allegations of misconduct only if they’ve impacted significantly on the subject’s career. The argument against inclusion seems to be Donald Trump became the 45th president of the USA despite the allegations, hence… no impact, because the intended outcome of his pursuit was not derailed?

Inarguably though, didn’t the allegations of sexual impropriety considerably impact the conduct of the Trump campaign? Two items regarding these allegations — the National Enquirer’s “Catch-and-Kill” strategy, and Trump’s employment of a lawyer to pay one adult film actor and one other woman for silence — are central to the historically extraordinary way the Trump campaign was conducted. If the allegations required extraordinary and extra-legal countermeasures from Trump’s supporters, from Trump’s campaign staff, and from Donald Trump himself to secure his victory — subsequently leading both to court cases and to convictions (see: Michael Cohen handling the payments to two women) and to the president’s being accused in court documents (as “individual 1” who “was elected president”) of directing and coordinating the commission of said federal campaign finance crimes — isn’t that a central impact on the most notable event of a career?

If impact means “affect,” the allegations had a centrally profound impact on the Trump campaign’s conduct i.e. on the conduct of the briefest but perhaps most noteworthy arc of his career. If “impact” is only narrowly defined to mean “wholly derailed the final outcome,” there may be cause to delete major facts from a substantial many articles’ lead sections: Pres. Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s confinement to a wheelchair was hidden from the public, it “impacted” the conduct of his political career… yet it didn’t keep him from becoming the USA’s 32nd president, i.e. it didn’t wholly derail the outcome of his pursuits… so is his childhood illness significant enough to warrant a lead section mention? Or Pres. John F. Kennedy’s many ailments and affairs? They’ve impacted the historical narrative, but did not prevent his presidency. What about his assassination? From the day it occurred it held historical impact, and obviously ended his presidency… but it did not prevent it, so does it warrant lead section mention?

Just a few thoughts, but it seems world-historical details are being excluded from this article’s lead section based on a narrow reading of “impact.” Despite Wikipedia’s “Be bold!” solicitation, I’m disinclined to make the change without first reopening discussion. We should renew dialogue around including charges of Trump’s sexual misconduct, and the presidency-defining events surrounding or following those, with a clearer understanding of what “career-impacting” means.

-66.167.64.114 (talk) 06:55, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Your argument seems to be making a good case for lead-level prominence in Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign, rather than this article. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:09, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Hello IP. Yes, I would agree that such material better belongs in the 2016 campaign article. You do make a very good argument for inclusion though, so kudos to you. Mgasparin (talk) 22:32, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

No IP, the prior reasons still apply. It was viewed that these allegations just haven’t been a big issue in his life or impacted him and his biography (this article) in a significant way. That hasn’t changed. His life and this bio was already so full of larger items that these allegations were not on a par with those getting lede position. They didn’t have an impact such as lead to him going to jail or losing the election, and they haven’t grown in importance or size. If anything, they’re even less likely for lede after a couple years of his eventful presidency and their fading prominence. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 07:29, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you kindly for your replies! The case I’m making is for reopening discussion to include the allegations in this article’s lead section (although then also fully fleshing them out in the campaign article would be good). Rather than restate my case, I would refer anyone new to this dialogue to my first post, above.

As to why it merits prominent mention in this article’s lead section: the presidency is by far the briefest arc in this character’s life so far… but it’s the most important, therefore warranting lead section mention. The manner of this character’s campaign’s conduct, and its headline-garnering aftermath — a maelstrom of investigations into potentially criminal activity, complete with litigation resulting in convictions — is similarly important: it spills into this person’s presidency, and colors his conduct of it. It’s certainly world-historic for a US president to be listed in court documents as having directed and conspired in the commission of crimes by funneling hush money to two women accusing him of sexual impropriety.

Put another way: the Watergate scandal certainly has its own article, and the scandal doesn’t comprise the bulk of what became Pres. Nixon’s (nearly) two-term presidency… but the scandal is certainly linked to from the Richard Nixon article’s lead section — twice — where the scandal is also described plainly as having caused that president’s resignation. The Watergate scandal isn’t siloed to its own article: it is also mentioned in and linked to from the Richard Nixon article’s lead section twice, alongside a brief description of its effect on Nixon’s presidency.

-66.167.64.114 (talk) 08:16, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Over the next few days I’ll come up with some phrases for us to mull over. I’m thinking for this article’s lead section probably a single sentence will do it, and as of now something would fit well at or near the end of paragraph 3. I’ll also look at the ancillary article that was suggested for fleshing out. Thanks for your input so far, everyone!

-66.167.64.114 (talk) 14:08, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

66.167.64.114, you make some good arguments. A failure to mention the subject in the lead here means that other articles on the subject are clear examples of policy-violating POV forks by "siloing" them off and hiding them. Like you say, the "Watergate scandal isn’t siloed to its own article." It still gets mentioned in the lead of the mother article, and that's how it should be.

Even though the Watergate scandal does have its own proper spin-off sub-article, the full weight of that sub-article is properly represented in the main Nixon article by mentioning it in the lead. So it should be here.

The subject of Trump's very public sexual problems is covered in TWO sub-articles: Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations and Donald Trump Access Hollywood tape. The first certainly has more weight than the second, but the lead here doesn't have to go into detail. It should just state that "Trump's sexual relationships with women have been controversial and received much negative coverage." We don't have to go into what impact they have had on his life or political career.

The proper way to determine what has enough weight for mention in a lead is to include the weight of all existing sub-article spinoffs, every single one. We forget their weight because they only leave a short section behind in the mother article, so we tend to forget them.

Instead, imagine taking the main article, and then placing each full sub-article in the small paragraph spot it is now allotted. Only then can one see that each of those sub-article topics must be mentioned in the lead of the mother article. They often carry far more weight than another main article section which is not about a sub-article, the reason being it's not important enough to deserve a sub-article and therefore may not even deserve mention in the lead. Rather, the sub-articles carry weight and deserve mention.

See this section in my essay: The due weight of sub-articles in the lead of a mother article

BTW, I still think that "impact on his life" argument is NPOV-violating BS. It is the impact on reality and public perception, as revealed by RS-coverage, that counts more. RS-coverage, not subjective editorial POV, weighs more. NPOV is inviolable, and a local consensus must not override it. Editorial POV used to trump RS is a violation of NPOV, and, in this case, the use of those subjective opinions to trump RS-coverage has the effect of protecting Trump. How fitting. (NOT!) Just because he seems to be made of teflon doesn't mean Wikipedia should acquiesce and censor our coverage. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:19, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

• This is his named article, a WP:BLP where the topic is his life. Again, this was judged before - repeatedly - as not a major part of that. It wasn’t a large percentage of his life, it hasn’t had life-altering impact on him, and it’s not a typical bio data item such as date of birth and marriages. None of the points from before have gone away - if anything the allegations did. So I suggest it’s not worth a rfc to recheck - but that’s up to you. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:58, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Put it in..keep it in..it`s relevant..how do you figure him running his mouth about his sex life is somehow more relevant than the multiple allegations of sexual assault against him ? 2600:1702:2340:9470:555C:1F:ACFE:795B (talk) 21:55, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

RfC about requested name change at Trump–Russia dossier

Please participate:

• Talk:Trump–Russia dossier#Requested move 13 December 2019

BullRangifer (talk) 20:29, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 December 2019

Change "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." to "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th impeached and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." Thenew wiki Editor 2019 (talk) 01:35, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

•  Not done That kind of makes it sound like he's the 45th president to be impeached, doesn't it? Let's not introduce odd ambiguity into the lead sentence. Red Phoenix ^talk 01:47, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 December 2019

Please edit as the subject got impeached a while ago. 2601:6C4:4000:E2D0:754E:C0C0:546D:5A37 (talk) 02:17, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Pointless edit request. This article gets plenty of editor attention and will be updated in due course. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:28, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 December 2019

Consider changing "third U.S President in American history" to "third President in American history to be impeached ...". MayorCarter (talk) 02:19, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Mooted by this edit. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

"Numerous links were found between the Trump campaign and Russia..."

Proposing we incorporate this conclusion by judge: [8] PunxtawneyPickle (talk) 04:51, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

PunxtawneyPickle Can you please propose a specific wording and where you would like it to go in the article? Mgasparin (talk) 08:03, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 December 2019

Change incumbent to former/ex, recently impeached President

change Trump's status to former President 129.205.114.35 (talk) 05:06, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: He is still president EvergreenFir (talk) 05:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

"The third president to be impeached" in the lead

The discussion of impeachment was originally added to the fifth paragraph of the lead when we were only dealing with calls for impeachment. Now Trump has been impeached, the 3rd president in US history. It's 15 times more common to be president of the U.S. than to be one of the three presidents since 1789 who were impeached. Hence, this issue is now vastly more significant than when it was originally added to the fifth paragraph of the lead. It is clear that this now merits a more prominent mention in the lead, preferably in the first paragraph. For instance, his less notable activity as a television personality is mentioned in the first paragraph. His impeachment is, in addition to being much rarer than being president, an essential feature of his presidency, and something his entire presidency has revolved around, with all the investigations and talk of impeachment that started the moment he took office, something he himself has engaged with constantly. We could change the first paragraph to: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality. In 2019 he became the third president to be impeached.. --Tataral (talk) 05:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Nah, not yet. See how it goes with the senate. PackMecEng (talk) 06:10, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

They don't have a say in whether he gets impeached. He's now impeached, like only three others. --Tataral (talk) 06:12, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Yup and it is in the lead. I do not agree that it needs to be the third sentence in the lead just yet. PackMecEng (talk) 06:14, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Obviously belongs in the lead. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 06:23, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree it belongs in the lead.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:54, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Andrew Johnson's impeachment is mentioned in the fifth sentence of the lead. Bill Clinton's impeachment is also mentioned in the fifth sentence of the lead. Useful precedents to consider. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 08:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

You probably meant Andrew Johnson. And the Watergate scandal is mentioned in the first paragraph of Richard Nixon's article too, with most RS viewing the Watergate scandal as less serious than all the Trump–Russia/Ukraine scandals. --Tataral (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I have corrected "Jackson" to "Johnson". Sorry for the typo. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 08:38, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Suggestion

The opening should read: "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States, and the third president to be impeached."

I believe this is an accurate description of his status as POTUS. Ollie Garkey (talk) 06:33, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I would support that wording as well. --Tataral (talk) 07:24, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

No, it doesn't belong in the first sentence. The opening line of Clinton's article doesn't say he was the second to be impeached.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:31, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

However, Andrew Johnson's article mentions his impeachment in the first paragraph. Trump's impeachment is more central to his legacy than Clinton's impeachment for a trivial issue which centered on him having extramarital relations (really, who cares?). Clinton was widely known for a range of other things, his whole presidency didn't revolve around Russia investigations, foreign interference and his impeachment (unlike Trump's impeachment for a much more serious issue, that has been a much more dominating feature of his presidency). Nobody accused Clinton of soliciting foreign interference of the main adversary of the U.S. in American democracy, of being a threat to democracy or abusing power. --Tataral (talk) 07:38, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Andrew Johnson's article mentions it in the first paragraph, not the first sentence. It's way too early to decide what Trump's legacy is and what has dominated his presidency (which looks set to continue for another four years). Clinton was impeached for "obstruction of justice". That is not trivial. However, he was acquitted. The issues of Whitewater, Monica Lewinsky etc did dominant his Presidency. People were accusing Clinton of everything, including mass murder.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:04, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

My proposal above was to mention it in the first paragraph, but not the first sentence. I'm fine with either alternative. It is not way too early to assess how the world views Donald Trump and his presidency. It has been extensively commented on for years, since 2016 (even the impeachment talk started in 2016). Clinton's presidency, as covered by international media, didn't revolve around impeachment and him being a grave threat to democracy; his impeachment was covered by international media as a curious event that resulted from a right-wing witch-hunt and over a trivial issue, late in his otherwise successful presidency. He was not accused of soliciting the interference of foreign countries against his own country. The Watergate scandal is mentioned in Richard Nixon's first paragraph too; many RS have commented on the fact that Trump's Russia and Ukraine scandals are far more serious than the Watergate scandal; it's telling that we have so many articles covering these related scandals that ultimately resulted in his impeachment, so it deserves a mention in the first paragraph (Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections, Links between Trump associates and Russian officials, Timeline of investigations into Trump and Russia (January–June 2018), Timeline of investigations into Trump and Russia (July–December 2018), Impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump, Impeachment of Donald Trump, Trump–Ukraine scandal etc.). --Tataral (talk) 08:06, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

No, you said you supported the wording above. You probably should be impeached yourself. It is not relevant what was not said about Clinton. Whether an impeachment is a witch-hunt or a crucifixion is not relevant here. Impeachment is a major event, but I don't see that Clinton is very different from Trump. I don't need a lecture from you about how the international media covered Clinton.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:38, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Untrue. I said I support that wording "as well" (as my own proposal above which included it in the third sentence). Both alternatives are fine with me. --Tataral (talk) 09:30, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I'll support one brief sentence at the end of the first para due to the historic nature. He is the third U.S. president in history to have been impeached. That leaves a lot unsaid, and that's fine and quite appropriate for the first para; more detail in the last para of the lead, where it is now. I would struggle to find a sensible place for new content anywhere else above the last para. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:34, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I had in mind too: a very short mention in the first paragraph that briefly summarises/introduces the topic (the end of the first paragraph is fine with me), and more detail on the investigations and inquiries that ultimately led to his impeachment at the end of the lead section. --Tataral (talk) 09:33, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

A consensus in something more structured than this would be required to modify #Current consensus item 17. But we can discuss a bit more before taking the articles of edit proposal to the full House for a !vote. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:40, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I would support a brief sentence in the first paragraph. I also think the impeachment should comprise the entire last paragraph of the lead (an edit I made yesterday, but was reverted.) The impeachment should not be lumped in with the Mueller investigation. - MrX 🖋 19:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Missing info

An important piece of information is missing from the sentence in the lead about Trump's impeachment that makes it different from the two previous cases: the votes to impeach were entirely partisan/from one party, while the votes against were bipartisan (two Democrats voted against, with one abstaining/present). AppliedCharisma (talk) 19:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Discussion of this point was already in progress below when you posted this. Let's keep all of that in one place, please. I see you've already commented there. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:06, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

PAGE UPDATE.

This page should probably be updated since this guy has been Impeached. Themesmusic (talk) 15:31, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it should also be updated because he was impeached. --Sir Bond 007 (James The Bond 007) (talk) 15:35, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Final vote tally in the open?

It seems that there should be some sort of note that the impeachment was the first attempt with no bipartisan support, with some democrats voting against impeachment, one voting "present," and one democrat defecting to the Republican Party. A summary, something to the effect of: "...Trump was impeached, with zero Republican votes, two Democrats voting against both articles, one Democrat voting "yes" for the first article, and another voting "present" for both articles." Architeuthidæ (talk) 15:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I believe that is too much detail for the Trump bio, and better suited for the main impeachment article. ValarianB (talk) 16:50, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

It might be a little wordy how I put it, that was just some brainstorming. But at least something should be said that it had no bipartisan support...zero votes from the opposition party is pretty significant. Architeuthidæ (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Worth noting, Architeuthidæ, is that long time Republican congressman Justin Amash resigned from the GOP a few months ago, and voted for both articles of impeachment. However, these details do not belong in Trump's biography, but in the impeachment article instead. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:36, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

That is worth noting in Justin Amash's biography, but Van Drew's defection occurred during the impeachment process, which appears to be out of disgust with his party's behavior, which I believe is a first. I don't know if we should mention the defection in Trump's biography, only the fact that the impeachment was a party-line vote with no bipartisan support. Architeuthidæ (talk) 18:05, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

The fact that it's along party lines has a lot more to do with the sad state of American politics than with Donald Trump. Therefore a mention in the lead is not warranted and "along party lines" already exists in the Impeachment section of this article. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:53, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

It is warranted for the lead, because it informs the reader of an important fact- that the impeachment was entirely derived from partisan politics. Not a single Republican voted in favor, even Republicans who declared themselves in opposition to the Trump presidency in the past. That's a very significant aspect of this event. AppliedCharisma (talk) 19:05, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I submit that there are a lot of important facts in this situation and we can't put all of them in the lead. As I said, this has little to do with Donald Trump. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:09, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Wouldn't you agree that the fact that an impeachment with reasoning such as "I'm concerned that if we don't impeach this president, he will get reelected" in the words of Al Green, also has more to do with the sad state of American politics than Donald Trump? We have to mention the impeachment obviously, so if we all agree that this impeachment was a purely political maneuver to damage Trump's re-election chances rather than about "obstruction of Congress," the fact that it was a purely partisan act should be mentioned hand in hand. I agree with AppliedCharisma, and the fact that even the Never Trumpers didn't go along with this is very significant. Architeuthidæ (talk) 19:11, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

if we all agree that this impeachment was a purely political maneuver - What on earth makes you believe that we all agree on that? Even if we did, that's blatant POV reasoning. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

The fact that you said that the impeachment has to do with the "sad state of American politics," and "little to do with Donald Trump" (and by extension, his actions, phone calls, etc.). POV meaning Point of View I assume? I don't think that's in dispute. Zero Republicans voted for the articles, three Democrats voted against at least one Article or "present," and one Democrat defected and joined up with the Republicans during the impeachment process. There's not a point of view. That's the final vote tally. Architeuthidæ (talk) 19:25, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I can't believe I have to explain this. It's POV to say that the party-line division proves it's a "purely political maneuver". The opposing POV argument, which has no more place in this discussion than yours, is that the party-line division proves that the Republicans care more about protecting their guy and making Democrats look bad than about political ethics and checks and balances. The non-POV view is that American politics and society have become hopelessly polarized, end. This line of discussion should now be dropped and probably collapsed. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:00, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Also, the opposition to the impeachment actions was bipartisan (two Democrats against) while the support was only from one political party. That's a salient fact about this impeachment, and that has been noted in multiple media sources. AppliedCharisma (talk) 19:22, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't dispute that it's a salient fact about this impeachment. I dispute that every salient fact about this impeachment belongs in this article's lead. We are not going to reach agreement on this point, so it's time to wait for other input. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:26, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

It's also noteworthy that this is the first impeachment in history where the House is refusing to send the Articles to the Senate. The lead states right now: "A Senate trial is pending." Well, not really. No more than the event of "aliens making contact with Earthlings" is pending. The Senate has no articles, so there is no trial or dismissal pending yet. Nancy Pelosi is still holding onto 'em and she has yet to indicate when or if the Senate will have a chance to take a look at Adam Schiff's work. Architeuthidæ (talk) 19:37, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, so let's explore that issue in this article's lead. No thanks. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:39, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

No I'm saying we should NOT explore this issue. There really isn't a Senate trial pending. "Pending" indicates that an event will take place. Nancy has given no indication that the Senate will get their hands on the Articles, and there seems to be a Republican consensus that a quick dismissal is more likely than a full trial. The lead is inaccurate and misleading. Architeuthidæ (talk) 19:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I oppose including vote counts, party defections, and reflections about the impeachment being non-bipartisan in this article. This information is not particularly relevant to Trump's life. Furthermore, the claim that the impeachment was driven by party politics is a false claim manufactured by hard core Trump devotees. - MrX 🖋 19:40, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Two D's voting "nay" and 1 voting 'present" does not make the effort "bipartisan", not by a long shot. ValarianB (talk) 19:44, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

No more nothing for this article. I think it's fine to remove "Senate trial pending". This is the biography @Architeuthidæ: it's not helpful to get into personal opinions on the article talk page. We need to consider the article topic, sourced references, and due weight. Opinions are likely to attract lots of distractions and side-colloquy among editors. SPECIFICO talk 19:46, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I think it's fine to remove "Senate trial pending". -- That would be opposed by editors who feel we need to accommodate the (many) readers who think impeachment means removal. It's another good illustration of the tangled mess we get into when we try to avoid all ambiguity in the lead of an article. We simply can't leave anything unsaid without, well, leaving something unsaid – and that's a simple fact of any type of summary-level writing that many Wikipedia editors seem unable to understand. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

We can leave some things left unsaid such as the record speed of the impeachment, Democrat to Republican conversions and other curiosities unique to this impeachment, but we shouldn't have blatant falsehoods in the lead like "A Senate trial is pending." A Senate trial isn't pending. The Senate doesn't even have any Articles of impeachment. Until Nancy hands the Articles over, we can't say whether a Senate trial or dismissal is or isn't pending. Architeuthidæ (talk) 20:03, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

You know very well that a Senate trial is coming. The technical definition of "pending" is far too deep in the weeds for the lead of this biography. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:05, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

No we don't. Media sources are saying that Rep Pelosi is holding the charges indefinitely. Anyway, simply add "All the votes for impeachment were from Democratic Party members plus one independent." This short sentence communicates absolutely crucial information to the reader as is shows that, unlike the other two impeachments in US history, there was NO bipartisan support for it. Even anti-Trump media sources are noting this in their reporting, that it was a strictly party-line vote. AppliedCharisma (talk) 20:09, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't think we should make assumptions about what Nancy is or isn't going to do with the articles. Until she indicates that she's going to give the Articles to the Senate, a Senate trial isn't pending. Also as I said before, a dismissal is more likely. Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnell, and the Trump team have indicated they want to get this taken care of quickly and avoid a long drawn-out trial. If we want to be at least somewhat accurate, we should say "A Senate dismissal is pending." That's not really accurate either, but more accurate than saying a "trial" is pending when there's no reason to believe that a trial is pending. Architeuthidæ (talk) 20:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I hadn't read today's breaking news. So it would be sensible to change "A Senate trial is pending" to "He has yet to be tried in the Senate." and explain what that means in the Impeachment section. I still oppose anything about the party lines in the lead, for the reasons I've given above. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:16, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

"He has yet to..." That's a long long list for any WP article. The Pope has yet to take a bride. I think readers will be confident they can find it in the article when it happens. SPECIFICO talk 20:23, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

You assume that readers understand the American impeachment process, or that it's not the job of this article to clarify such things. As I said above, many editors are not prepared to assume that. That's why, for example, the lead of this article, which is not about the American presidential election process, includes a long footnote explaining how the Electoral College works and how a president can be elected with less than 50% of the popular vote. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:28, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Interesting point, @Mandruss:. I had assumed there was a link to an impeachment article that detailed the American impeachment process. There is no such article. Somebody should start it. Still not convinced we need to append pendency in the lead. SPECIFICO talk 21:50, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Impeachment in the United States. But the same principle applied to the Electoral College and we still felt a long footnote was needed. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Why do you presume it's going to happen, and just a matter of "when" Specifico? Because of precedent? If we can all agree on something, it's that pretty much everything about this impeachment is unprecedented. Until Nancy gives indication that she's going to hand over the Articles to the Senate, I think we should just refrain from mentioning the Senate at all. Maybe just a line saying "Currently, the Articles rest with Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who has yet to decide what to do with them." Architeuthidæ (talk) 20:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I see you're a new account. Please don't speculate or offer personal opinions on the article talk page. The talk page is to agree how to map sources into article text. You may read my "when" as "if" when/if you wish. SPECIFICO talk 21:40, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

It's going to be pretty tough to improve this article unless we offer our opinions on the content, here. Do you know a way to have a discussion without offering our thoughts on the topic? I see you removed the note about a senate trial pending, thanks. It's a good idea to leave that out until Nancy decides on her next move. Architeuthidæ (talk) 21:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

And stop referring to Speaker Pelosi by her first name. Surely you know that's inappropriate. SPECIFICO talk 21:50, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Hmmm. I didn't know that's inappropriate on an article talk page. A number of experienced editors at Talk:Hillary Clinton need to be informed about that, preferably with a pointer to the PAG about that. It's not at all uncommon to refer to her as "Hillary" there. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:09, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Was I addressing you Man? SPECIFICO talk 22:27, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Current Consensus #37 - Dismissal of James Comey

Per Current Consensus #37, I suggest that the section Donald Trump#Dismissal of James Comey be removed. In the scope of Trump's presidency, it isn't likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. Thoughts? --DannyS712 (talk) 20:34, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Alleged?

In #Impeachment inquiry report - and a look ahead for the lede we reiterated the consensus for the wording for the first part of the impeachment paragraph in the lead. Rusf10 just added "alleged", a word which is not in the body of the article. The user also created an WP:EGG. I object to this edit because it introduces WP:OR and WP:WEASEL, and it bypasses consensus. - MrX 🖋 22:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

@MrX:, you are mistaken. "Alleged" is not a weasel word, it is MOS:ALLEGED. President Trump is to be treated the same as any other person accused of a crime. An impeachment is similar to an indictment. The trial has not occurred yet, that happens in the senate. None of this is WP:OR, it is a process outlined in the United States Constitution, I suggest you read Impeachment in the United States to better understand how the process works.--Rusf10 (talk) 23:03, 19 December 2019 (UTC)