Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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TheTimesAreAChanging

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning TheTimesAreAChanging

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Casprings (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:36, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

User:TheTimesAreAChanging has a history of attacking user:SPECIFICO with WP:AGF and WP:Pointy at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2016_United_States_election_interference_by_Russia [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]

I approached him and asked him to stop dealing with user conduct [10] on an article talk page. He acknowledged my comment and stated that he would take issues with SPECIFICO to WP:AE. [11] However, he continues to attack users on the talk page. [12] [13] [14] [15]

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. [16] User admonished and strongly warned

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Pervious admonishment and warning at WP:AE. [17]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

He also maintains a list about SPECIFICO in his sandbox, here which, in my opinion, is a little unhinged.

• Laser_brain, Sections like this seem, at least to me, to be going after users. This. to me, seems like WP:Battleground. It is also something other users have approached him about. That said, if I am misinterpreting this, my apologies to both the admins and to TheTimesAreAChanging. Casprings (talk) 17:10, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
• First my general apologies for the lack of quality of this report. If I ever come back here again, I will certainly take more time to put together a better report. I lack the time to add much now, but if this remains open I will add more. Second, to TParis, I do not believe it is accurate to state the editor is "outnumbered". A look on the talk page of multiple articles in the subject area of American Politics will domonstrat a large number of conservative editors.Casprings (talk) 02:51, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[18]

Discussion concerning TheTimesAreAChanging

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by TheTimesAreAChanging

Casprings also maintains a list about TheTimesAreAChanging in his sandbox, here which, in my opinion, is a little unhinged.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:52, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Editors are complaining that the above comment is too snarky and that the two sandboxes are not really comparable. I thought my point was obvious, but I guess I need to spell it out: Like Casprings, I am using my sandbox to compile evidence of misconduct against another user. I could have used Word instead, but I considered that presenting the diffs publicly would enable other editors to comment on and add to the list, if any deigned to do so. Unlike Casprings, I am not going to file any complaint without first compiling substantial documentation. (Not sure how that reflects badly on me.) If it must go, so be it.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:37, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

With regard to Casprings "evidence," I will only point out that diff number eight is just me responding to SPECIFICO hatting one of my comments with the patronizing message "Talk page is for article improvement" by unhatting it and explaining why it is relevant. I opened my reply to SPECIFICO with "SPECIFICO, we already know 'talk page is for article improvement.'" That's an egregious personal attack? (Nor am I the only one to find SPECIFICO's "constant attempts to police the discourse ... tiresome.")TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:37, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

For the record, I've never violated 1RR on any article related to American Politics; this has already been explained to SPECIFICO numerous times, but that user has a pattern of "misguided...at best" distortions of my edits (and has been topic banned twice for routinely misrepresenting sources). Since SPECIFICO does not even pretend to offer any "evidence" to support the smear, I remind users that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:39, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Statement by MjolnirPants

I saw this, and wasn't going to comment, until I read the above statement by the subject of this request. The statement therein is categorically false, Casprings does not "maintain a list about" the subject. The truth is that, over the course of less than one hour, Casprings composed their complaint there before posting it here. This was trivially easy to discover, except that in my experience, the subject does indeed maintain a battleground mentality, specifically over politics.

For evidence, simply look at the long right-wing political diatribe that comprises their userpage, or their guest posting to another user's page (also full of right-wing diatribes). Pay close attention to the sourcing used for that. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 15:01, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

I've seen some complaints below that the diffs don't evince bad behavior in and of themselves. So here's one in which he claims everyone who disagrees with him on this issue has horrible writing skills. It's a juvenile insult to be sure, but it's an insult nonetheless. "It is an interesting coincidence that the editors in the "Russia definitely did it, and Wikipedia should say so without attribution" camp are not merely worse writers than their opponents, but also appear to be practically allergic to even semi-decent prose..."

I have to say that I find some of the admin comments below a little disturbing... Those diffs evince an unusual, unwarranted and -frankly- disturbing level of focus on a couple of users (with one dominating that focus) for someone who purportedly has an interest in improving the article. No-one has pointed it out yet, so let me be the first to draw attention to the fact that the diffs above comprise the vast majority of TTAAC's editing on the article talk pages in recent weeks (if not the totality... I haven't checked their every edit to that page). Furthermore, this is from an editor who displays a shockingly blatant political POV. I'm a little disheartened to see the admins below basically shrugging their shoulders because this editor hasn't stooped to calling Volunteer Marek or SPECIFICO a "butthead" yet. Personally, I consider editors who focus on other editors to this extent without stooping to obvious personal attacks more damaging, due to their ability to skate through the relatively quick venues for correction like ANI or simple castigation from their peers. I would have expected admins here to pay a little more attention to the overall picture, and not focus so much on the details. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:46, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes

If anyone disagree with specific edits (and believes this is misinterpreting a source), he should discuss these edits, not the contributor. This is WP:NPA, 101. Telling on article talk page that "User X has repeatedly fabricated sources to push their POV in this article", that the same user "has been topic banned twice for misrepresenting sources and POV-pushing" and that another user Y "has intentionally reinserted errors into the article" [19] was clearly not about content, but about contributors.

Why? Was it done on purpose? Was it done by mistake? Was it something normal to continue in the future? This is something to be clarified in reply by TTAAC. Or perhaps this is problem with other contributors, exactly as TTAAC tells here? If so, I think TTAAC should provide some diffs to prove it. My very best wishes (talk) 17:45, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Based on responses by TTAAC so far, he will continue doing the same. Clearly, many diffs showing misbehavior by TTAAC were provided by several contributors. Telling otherwise is beyond belief. If his behavior "crosses the line" is a matter of personal judgement. My very best wishes (talk) 14:54, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Statement by SPECIFICO

@Sandstein: There's much more evidence than Casprings initially presented. Some of it was posted on the previous AE thread that @MelanieN: brought here last month. May I ask Admins to review the links cited in that thread, or would you prefer that I copy some of the diffs to the current thread?

After Dennis Brown gave TTAAC the ultimate warning in that thread, TTAAC continued his gratuitous and false personal attacks on various editors He continued to disparage mainstream RS references for the articles under DS while continuing his advocacy of his personal political opinions. I can gather some diffs if that will be helpful, but that may take a day or two. One of the problems with TTAAC's participation is that he misrepresents the substance of links and cherrypicks quotes of other editors snipping a few words that he embellishes with false and misleading accusations and aspersions. There was one example yesterday after TTAAC left the tu quoque counterpunch at Casprings here. See this pointless disparagement of @Volunteer Marek: whom TTAAC has repeatedly attacked and harassed. SPECIFICO talk 20:07, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

@Sandstein: I understand, thanks. I hope that others will join me in presenting any evidence they feel is relevant beginning after the bright line warning from Dennis Brown on December 12. SPECIFICO talk 21:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Here are a few of the diffs after Dennis Brown's warning:
TTAAC repeatedly posted hostile and ad hominem edit comments: [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26]
The following two have no diffs because the comments were apparently rev-del’d
• 22:43, 6 January 2017 (diff | hist) . . (+1,247)‎ . . Talk:2016 United States election interference by Russia ‎ (Since SPECIFICO evidently doesn't take their own editing seriously, there is no reason for anyone else to.)
• 22:20, 7 January 2017 (diff | hist) . . (+2,296)‎ . . Talk:2016 United States election interference by Russia ‎ (→‎SPECIFICO fabricates YET ANOTHER citation: new section)

Here he derogates the restrictions of DS/ARBAP2: [27]
Battleground vs. @Volunteer Marek:: [28] [29] [30]
Battleground vs. @Bob K31416:: [31]
Battleground vs. SPECIFICO: [32] [33] [34] [35]
Soapbox derogation of mainstream sources: [36]
Frivolous AE complaint vs. SPECIFICO: [37]

There were also at least one 1RR violation and several violations of the DS requirement to seek talk page consensus before reinserting challenged content. To be continued. SPECIFICO talk 00:12, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

This just in... Further disparagement of Volunteer Marek. SPECIFICO talk 01:40, 10 January 2017 (UTC) My turn now! Reply when @My very best wishes: points out that the TTAAC's disparagements of me on his "SPECIFICO fan page" are false. SPECIFICO talk 01:59, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Statement by NewsAndEventsGuy

Admins so far may be applying wrong policy. When the arbs set aside the original remedy statement, they replaced it with standard DS, which in turn requires compliance with several policies and among these is the policy for WP:Dispute resolution. The diffs in the complaint violate that policy because they address editor behavior and they appear at article talk. There is nothing in the DR policy that makes exceptions for behavioral commentary if it is phrased to not grab us by the short hairs. Under the DR policy, faiulure to WP:FOC is failure to WP:FOC. In my view we should be working harder against low level in civility and battle attitude, and that would go a mighty long way toward ed retention and diversity. Instead the de facto policy tends to create an evolutionary pressure in which only the tough skinned survive, at least on controversial articles. That's toxic in the long term, IMO. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:22, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Statement by MelanieN

I would just like to remind admins of the stern "this is your last chance" warning given in the closure of the last such AE report: "TheTimesAreAChanging is admonished and strongly warned that there is a reason why articles on American Politics are under Arb restriction. You are at the edge of getting topic banned or blocked. I would remind you that Arb restricted areas have little rope and you just used yours up. Discuss before reverting when you know it is going to be contentious. Being "right" is meaningless here, everyone thinks they are right. Unquestionably, if the problematic behavior continues, you will be topic banned, so I hope you use this one last chance wisely. If you want to argue about what NPOV or other policies demand, fine, do so using the talk page and not the revert button. There isn't a consensus and the interest has cooled down, so I'm taking this action to end this, using the least amount of force. Don't get used to it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:28, 12 December 2016 (UTC)" "Last chance" ought to mean something. The behavior documented this time is not 1RR violations or typical AE issues; rather it is long-term stalking, hounding, and harassment of certain users, a persistent battleground mentality. If nobody else is bothered by this, I am. --MelanieN (talk) 20:37, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Comment in response to SPECIFICO's diffs: the two that were not visible were part of a long series of several dozen edits that were not just revdel'ed - they were oversighted, so even admins can't see them. TTAAT's edits were somewhere in the middle of the series so the oversighting almost certainly had nothing to do with TTAAT's edits. --MelanieN (talk) 00:21, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the thoughtful responses from several of you. If I am hearing you right, this board is not designed for long-term problems or for issues unrelated to ArbCom sanctions. Is that right? So for a long-term problem like a pattern of stalking and harrassment, something like AN would be the only appropriate venue? --MelanieN (talk) 00:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm confused about what I'm supposed to do here. TParis is asking me to "back up my claims", that is, to provide evidence of a longterm pattern of stalking, hounding, and harassment of two editors - Volunteer Marek and SPECIFICO. TP is basically asking me to present a full AN case which would go back years (till 2012 by TTAAC's account [38]). On the other hand Sandstein is saying, don't present any diffs that predate Dennis' warning (December 12). I'm pretty sure most admins here do not want a full AN-type report. Short of that, I think the evidence presented by Casprings, while not presented in the usual format for AE, does show many examples of battleground behavior, especially the sandbox listing TTAAC's complaints against SPECIFICO [39] Harassing behavior toward these two editors? Notice the edit summaries when he is reverting SPECIFICO [40] or Volunteer Marek [41]. Examples of hounding? In a discussion on his own talk page with another editor about an unrelated matter, TTAAC pinged Volunteer Marek by referring to him as "Wikipedia's whitewasher-in-chief". [42] In December TTAAC filed an AE complaint against SPECIFICO which was closed as "no violation has occurred".[43] These are just a few samples but they might provide some sense of what I am talking about. --MelanieN (talk) 05:14, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Statement by TParis

• @Uninvolved admins: Thank you for taking my concerns regarding the broader issues seriously. I appreciate being heard and I'll tone down my rhetoric.

• @MelanieN: What "last chance" certainly does not mean is that any spurious claim of misconduct will result in a block. Those asking for sanctions messed the 'last chance' up, not the reviewing uninvolved admins.--v/r - TP 20:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• @MastCell and CIreland: Do you want to know what I find disappointing? There is weak almost non-existant evidence on this report. MelanieN has followed that up with some claims of harassment and poisoned the well. This board is exactly not for unsubstantiated claims. We have WP:ASPERSIONS for a reason and this is it. It's because when people repeat claims of bad behavior enough times, without evidence, eventually others start believing in them. Unless MelanieN backs up her claims, they should be removed. And unless they are backed up, this AE should be swiftly closed before the allegations are allowed to spread like an out of control rumor. You two have already demonstrated how easily they take hold.--v/r - TP 02:12, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• @CIreland: I tried, but I just can't go without addressing your comment. You said "it is only a matter of time before someone loses patience and makes a sufficiently ill-considered retort...." But your concern only appears to be editors on one side of this dispute losing their patience. Have you considered that TTAAC is so outnumbered and targeted in this topic area that they are the one being pushed, losing their patience, and making ill-considered retorts? You certainly didn't. Why?--v/r - TP 02:18, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• @CIreland: There is no evidence here against TTAAC. Why are you asking for evidence against others but you're taking the claims of one side at face value? Have you read the evidence at all? I reviewed some of SPECIFICO's diffs, you can read my analysis on my talk page. I'll remind you that MelanieN has posted no evidence of harassment or stalking - merely allegations. Have you asked her for evidence or are you relying on your recollection of past allegations of harassment and stalking to support todays?--v/r - TP 02:56, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• @Casprings: There are a large number of conservative editors that are unwilling to get protracted in disputes or to really defend their points of view because of the attitude on this project towards Conservative editors. I know because I'm one of them.--v/r - TP 03:02, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• @Volunteer Marek: None of your diffs pertain to the editor's behavior in the topic of American Politics. No recent evidence of poor behavior has been presented. This has all been smoke and mirrors and the four of you should be sanctioned for trying to game AE to perpetuate a dispute. If you have a problem with TTAAC's user page, which you rightly do, then bring it up in the appropriate forums. But, ARBAP is not the venue for your complaint. Please present evidence relevant to American political articles.--v/r - TP 05:37, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• @Volunteer Marek: You can look at my analysis of SPECIFICO's diffs on my user page. I'll refer you to the uninvolved admins analysis of Caspring's diffs. And I'll point out that MelanieN has not provided any diffs - only accusations. The evidence is weak. A lot of mud slinging. As I already said, you lot screwed up Dennis' 'last chance' warning by bringing this AE complaint without a solid complaint. Now you're scrambling to put something together. That should be transparent to the uninvolved admins in the result section.--v/r - TP 06:04, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

There's a lot that could be diff'ed here. Plenty to choose from. Every other comment TTAAC makes is some kind of battleground - others have already provided the diffs. Which is not surprising given the long rants on their user page which pretty clearly illustrate that the user is WP:NOTHERE. But let me just focus on one thing - BLP.

• Here is TTAAC's user page from 01/04/17. Note the following BLP violations:

• • " Anita Sarkeesian does not really care about video games "objectifying" women—dumpy girls just happen to feel much more threatened by hotties than dumpy guys feel threatened by hunks, hence the need to lower all standards of female attractiveness to the lowest common denominator"' - using the user page to disparage a living person (both in terms of her beliefs and her looks (wtf?)). Now to TTAAC's... half-credit, he did remove Sarkeesian's name after I brought this up on their talk page, although he couldn't resist making a personal attack in the edit summary.

• • "Ana Kasparian, who previously called for re-admitting AIDs blood into the blood supply as the Left's next ideological purity test" - this is a striaght up smear of a living person (she did no such thing) and I can't believe that this was allowed to stay on his user page for so long. After even more prodding he did eventually remove it.

Now, there's still a bunch left.

• • "I feel like ... I'm fucking better than you. Much better than you. You are garbage. You can call me a Social Justice Warrior. I don't give a shit. ... You're deplorable. You are a piece of shit. I have no respect for women who voted for Trump. I think you're fucking dumb."—Ana Kasparian, - this is a misquotation of the subjects. It pulls out part of three different quotes, out of context and "stitches" them together to make it seem like Kasparian was saying something ("I'm better than women who voted for Trump who are dumb pieces of shit"), which she was not. For example, the "You are garbage" quote is actually Kasparian talking about "people who take joy in attacking others who are defenseless" and those who "have no emotion when they see people shot and killed", not "women who voted for Trump". This is straight up lying about a living person and using a Wikipedia page to do so. He still hasn't removed this. (nota bene - this misquotation was made into a meme which is being passed around far-right social media)

• • "Ana Kasparian, who previously (...) Leftists really are horrible, hate-filled people.". Now, he did remove the bullshit about Kasparian wanting to "readmit AIDS into the blood supply" but left the part in about "Leftist". It's the sentence which immediately follows the one about Kasparian. The obvious implication is that Kasparian is one of these "horrible, hate-filled people". So more disparaging of living persons.

• • "Female supremacist Jessica Valenti..." (yes, describing a living person derogatorily as "female supremacist" is a BLP vio)

There's probably a few other BLP vios in those rants though I'm not familiar with the other subjects and don't really feel like going to the trouble of verifying whether TAACC is quoting them properly or smearing them like he does with others.

This crap needs to be removed. And it illustrates crystal clear that this editor is here for WP:ADVOCACY, WP:BATTLEGROUND but WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Hence previous AE warning, hence all this trouble.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:30, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

TP, Trump? Young Turks? Of course this has everything to do with American Politics.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:46, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

And how is this not recent? It's from a discussion from last two days. And the diffs presented by others, like MelanieN, SPECIFICO, the original filer - they're all from the past few days. What are you talking about? Or do you just think that blatantly denying the obvious will work as an obstructionist tactic? Speaking of "gaming"... Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:48, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

TP, I see SIX diffs in Melanie's statement, four of them of recent vintage. Again, not clear on what you're talking about.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:11, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Result concerning TheTimesAreAChanging

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I agree with MjolnirPants that TTAAC's so far only comment on this request makes a bad impression.[44] TheTimesAreAChanging, due diligence would have been to look at the history of Caspring's sandbox for one minute first. Were you too pleased by an opportunity for a quick cheap "quoting" gibe to do that, on the principle of "never check a good story", or what? Anyway, it's surprising to see it on a board where you know the idea is for admins to evaluate your demeanour and interactions on Wikipedia. Bishonen | talk 16:41, 9 January 2017 (UTC).
• (EC) I'm not impressed by the silly comment on this filing by TheTimesAreAChanging, but I'm having a difficult time seeing anything in the diffs provided (three of the four of which point to the same comment) that's not the everyday red-faced bickering we see in this topic area. As TParis mentioned last time we were here, editors need to be able express dissenting opinions without being dragged to noticeboards. I don't see any egregious personal attacks unless I'm really missing something. Casprings, I think you are somewhat off-base in our interpretation of discussing "user conduct" and what you're requesting of the subject. If TheTimesAreAChangingfeels that someone is misrepresenting a source, they absolutely should discuss it on the article talk page to get other opinions. --Laser brain (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• @MelanieN: I empathize, and I'm fully aware of Dennis Brown's previous warning. What I think most of us are saying is that the report is weak. I don't see anything in the diffs presented that remotely resemble "long-term stalking, hounding, and harassment". WP:AE is not an investigative service—reports should concisely outline why the subject should be sanctioned, and this report fails to do that. A lot of reports here lately amount to "I'm telling on you" and it's reduced the efficiency and efficacy of the board. --Laser brain (talk) 21:02, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• I agree with Laser brain that this seems like a weak case. Most of the diffs listed under Specifico attacks are not really attacks and the four diffs listed after "continues to attack" are actually one diff and is not beyond the bounds of heated discourse. At best, I'd suggest that the editor tone down the questioning of the competence of other editors and focus more on discussing content. The stuff in the sandbox [45] is, however, troublesome and, perhaps, needs explanation or needs to go. --regentspark (comment) 17:57, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

  I must say that the comments about Volunteer Marek [46], made as they are when this AE report is open, are not an encouraging sign. And the continual insistence that other editors are incompetent is not promising either. Throw the sandbox page, which I note is still up, into the mix and I guess a TBAN is, after all, a good idea. Support TBAN. --regentspark (comment) 22:37, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• I broadly agree with the above admins that, while TheTimesAreAChanging's comments here reflect poorly on them, the complaint does not make sufficiently clear (and it is also not clear at a glance) how the diffs at issue are "attacks" in the sense of actionable misconduct. I would therefore take no action.  Sandstein  18:27, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• SPECIFICO: I'm not interested in reviewing diffs already reviewed in a previous request. They have presumably been addressed (or not, as was appropriate) as needed then.  Sandstein  21:18, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
• MelanieN: I am taking your concerns seriously, but AE is by its nature not very good at evaluating longterm conduct patterns (unless they are very well documented in a request, which is rare and certainly not the case here). We can and do take into account repeat misconduct, but we do need an instance of misconduct in this specific case to trigger sanctions. I'm not saying that it is necessarily not present here, only that if it is, the request does a very poor job of establishing it. Just a long string of diffs is pretty much worthless to me, personally, at least. I expect something in the vein of "at [diff] on [date], [user] says "[quote]" which is [type of misconduct] because [reason]". The request template actually sets that up.  Sandstein  21:28, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• The Hitchens stuff in the sandbox does reflect extremely badly upon TTTAAC - it's simply not acceptable in any shape or form - and needs to go (I will remove it when this request is closed). In the meantime, TTTAAC needs to seriously tone down the rhetoric or I strongly suspect a third appearance here will indeed result in sanctions. Black Kite (talk) 00:39, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• Also to add, given the below, that I would not disagree with a sanction being applied now, either. Black Kite (talk) 22:32, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• I do not agree with the admins commenting above. It is wholly unreasonable to ask the targets of such antagonistic and provocative comments to simply smile sweetly and carry on a productive discourse with this user. In an already contentious area, the tenor of the remarks in the diffs supplied surely make consensus building impossible. Moreover, it is only a matter of time before someone loses patience and makes a sufficiently ill-considered retort that lands them here, forcing admins' hands. Perhaps that is the intent behind the provocation. Regardless, TTAAC's approach to debate is intolerable and I am advocating a 6 month topic ban. CIreland (talk) 01:02, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@TParis: Because nobody has presented any diffs of such. If you have evidence of similar persistent patterns of behaviour by others, you should present them or file a separate report. Given, however, that my perspective on the matter seems to be in the minority, if you do present such evidence I don't see how I could offer much more than a sympathetic ear. CIreland (talk) 02:50, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@TParis: I am not taking anybody's claims at face-value. I looked at Casprings' diffs and formed my own judgement. Then I looked at other people's diffs and had that judgement reinforced. I've been around long enough to know to treat the commentary presented alongside the diffs with maximum caution if not outright scepticism. It's the nature of AE that, even if it's unfair to do so, one has to assume everything above the results heading may be highly partisan and only draw conclusions based on the diffs themselves. "Face-value" would be a ridiculous approach. CIreland (talk) 03:29, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• This report is weak, as others have already mentioned, and the multiple diffs to the same edit is poor form at best. However, this report (and TTAAC's comments here) does contribute to the mounting evidence that TTAAC does not play well with others in this area, and engages in unhelpful baiting and provocation of other editors which does not contribute to the encyclopaedia. I strongly recommend TTAAC restricts their comments to content, not editors. I get the sense here that a better formulated report could well have resulted in sanctions. I appreciate Dennis Brown's warning appeared to be a final one, but like Black Kite, I think the next time TTAAC is brought here (assuming a properly drawn up report with some meat on it) there is a good chance that a TBAN will follow. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:19, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
• I'm disappointed in many of the admin responses here. There seems to be a clear recognition that TTTAAC's behavior is disruptive and problematic, but also a reluctance to take action on this particular report because of complaints about its formal presentation. Look, the whole point of discretionary sanctions is to make it easier to deal with disruptive editing when it is identified. Instead, we're creating bureaucratic and procedural roadblocks that make it harder. It's pretty clear to any sensible admin (and everyone commenting in this thread is a sensible admin) that TTTACC is a combative, unhelpful, and counterproductive presence in this topic area. So how about we stop with the "final, absolutely last, no-more-chances, we-really-mean-it-this-time" warnings and actually address the problem that we all recognize, in keeping with the principle behind discretionary sanctions? I endorse what User:CIreland said; s/he has the right idea here. MastCell ^Talk 01:44, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• MastCell, I do not want to be snarky, but if you (unlike me) are convinced that it is clear that sanctions are appropriate here, then you can just go ahead and apply them rather than complain about bureaucracy. These sanctions are discretionary in that they do not need consensus or discussion, just one admin willing to pull the metaphorical trigger - or at least that's how it was when I was last active here. Well, your sanctions could be appealed, but from the comments here I don't think that there would be a consensus of admins to sustain an appeal.  Sandstein  21:43, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• Oh, and if it helps, after reading VolunteerMarek's statement, I'm now pretty comfortable myself with topic-banning this editor for whatever time. Wikipedia is very emphatically not a soapbox for angry political screeds, and a user who thinks that their user page is the place to fill with such (of any persuasion) is clearly somebody who should not go anywhere near divisive political topics on Wikipedia. Let them edit articles about birds or something.  Sandstein  21:55, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

• While good presentation helps, we are not required to reject a poorly presented request. I see enough evidence of problematic conduct to justify a topic ban (per my usual practice, I'd favor an indefinite one with appeals allowed after six months). The diffs presented as well as TTAAC's initial response in this AE paints a clear picture of combative behavior that does not belong in this already volatile topic area. It's true that "editors need to be able express dissenting opinions without being dragged to noticeboards", but it is equally important that editors need to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. The behavior here crossed that line. T. Canens (talk) 06:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
  • As an aside, TTAAC repeatedly claims that SPECIFICO "has been topic banned twice for routinely misrepresenting sources", yet I don't even see the word "misrepresent" in the applicable FoF. T. Canens (talk) 06:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
• @TParis: I read your and TTAAC's positions and back to the talk page diffs extensively. I am going to acknowledge your concern about community tendency to go against conservative viewpoints in various ways at various levels. And from what I know of say computer security and some of the primary source and secondary sources TTAAC is relying on, they are certainly making good points in the discussion there, though I disagree on the resulting conclusion. However, even in a contentious discussion on a politics page, TTAAC is a couple of standard deviations more likely to making personal attacks (which are well documented here, contrary your disagreement on that). And he's been given a final warning, after prior issues, and it's still going on. If we had a TTAAC content contributor who was no more likely than the others on the page to make personal attacks this would be a different story. But he's really standing out in the level of doing so. I don't see baiting drawing his attacks. He's making unforced errors there. It's enough that it's a problem. IMHO this is sanctionable. Someone else can and should make the content discussion input he's been doing, but he needs to stand back. It's time for a topic ban. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2017 (UTC)