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Current disputes

Frédéric Chopin

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Chip-chip-2020 on 14:43, 12 December 2020 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Frédéric Chopin (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Chip-chip-2020 (talk · contribs)
• Nihil novi (talk · contribs)
• Smerus (talk · contribs)
• kosboot (talk · contribs)
• François Robere (talk · contribs)
• Toccata quarta (talk · contribs)
• Glissando1234567890 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An extensive discussion started a couple of weeks ago about Chopins love or sexual life or desires. Some users seem to dominate the discussion, by refusing some sources harshly and by welcoming other sources quite uncritically. Some are starting to be quite rude, commenting „Yawn“ or so. It is also interesting that some users demand more and more proof for homosexual actions or desires, but can‘t provide proof of the same quality for heterosexual actions or desires.

A resolution, which was brought up by a number of users in that talk, would be to complete the article with 1-2 quotes by Chopin, taken from his letters, where he clearly wrote about his desires. It would also be nothing but transparent, to add 1-2 portraits of addressees to the article, addressees Chopin wrote to the most letters. Like this, the readers could read themselves what Chopin wrote and build their opinion on their own. Also a section about the quite large discourse on the topic would be nothing but transparent.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Frédéric_Chopin#Chopin’s_sexuality

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Perhaps guide the talk, so that not 2-3 users dominate the discussion. Ask for reliable sources of a comparable quality from both sides, judge the quality of the sources, help finding a solution. Bring back more friendlyness, politeness and, most important, more impartiality to the talk.

Summary of dispute by Nihil novi

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The discussions in question ("Chopin's sexuality", on the "Talk:Chopin" page) have largely centered on brief ambiguous passages from several letters that Chopin wrote in 1829–30 to his schoolmate Tytus Woyciechowski – which passages Moritz Weber, in a 7 December 2020 Swiss Radio and TV program, "Chopin was gay and no one must know about it", interpreted as indicating that Chopin was homosexual.

The dispute appears to have been resolved in a balanced, neutral way by Smerus (in the "Chopin" article's "Gender and sexuality in music and life" section), to the satisfaction of most parties except, notably, for Chip-chip-2020, who seems to have first brought Weber's views to the "Chopin" article and talk page.

Thank you.

Nihil novi (talk) 22:39, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Smerus

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Nothing to say that is not on the talk page. There is no dispute here, only a consensus which didn't go the way of the complainant.--Smerus (talk) 16:03, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by kosboot

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I've been on Wikipedia for 14 years with over 13K edits and this is the first time I've been summoned to this page. As with the U.S. presidential election, it boils down to a few people who refuse to work toward consensus and feel their views are the correct ones despite the relative quality of the sources. - kosboot (talk) 22:58, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by François Robere

As Robert McClenon notes this was a very lengthy discussion. I feel that some editors were defensive of Chopin/'s reputation (in a manner that again mirrors how this was received in the "real world"), and at times this contributed to a raising of sourcing standards almost to WP:BLP levels. The resulting text is appreciable for trying to summarize all of he main viewpoints without embarrassing any of the sources (some of whom have theorized on Chopin's sexuality in a manner that's out of vogue these days), but I think it's way too long and obtuse, and does not give due weight to some dissenting sources.

I have no opinion on whether this, or anything else, suits DRN. François Robere (talk) 17:38, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Toccata quarta

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The debate was a bit heated and not very structured initially, but the dust has settled and we have achieved some kind of consensus. I'm surprised by the size of the section on Chopin's sexuality that has just been added to the article and intend to make some further points on the talk page, but overall I'm happy with it and think it provides a balanced and well-written summary of the topic. I'm somewhat surprised that this has reached DRN in the first place; the debate was mostly civil and did not reach anything approaching the levels of acrimony that the talk pages of political articles often witness.

I have been asked by Chip-chip-2020 to provide a rationale for my reversal of his edit, so I will just state that the topic is a sensitive one and consensus was being sought on the talk page; hence, it was natural to revert the article to its "default" state, which is consistent with WP:BRD. The Chopin entry is a featured article and Chip-chip-2020's edits were reverted by other editors as well, which further supports the appropriateness of the steps taken. Toccata quarta (talk) 15:04, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Glissando1234567890

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Frédéric Chopin discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Comment by semi-involved Francis Schonken (talk): I think this is less suitable to be taken on at DRN, for there being too many parties (as far as I'm concerned I could have found myself listed among the parties), for issues getting mostly resolved on the article talk page (being told the same thing by many people is not an indication DR would usually lead to something different), and the OP's concerns to a large extent being implemented in mainspace (that a few things seem out of reach for the time being is something everyone, again, *everyone*, involved in the related discussion has to live with and should not fixate on). (note: this is not an opening comment by a volunteer, unless all listed involved users would consider me to be completely uninvolved, and then this would be my very first DRN discussion I'd volunteer on – just didn't know where else to put this comment) --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
• This dispute should have gone to RSN and NPOVN where the UNDUE nonsense would be rejected and any appropriate fraction of the current text would be validated. The calculus of WP content is that a compromise between valid and invalid = invalid. That's just logic, and that's where things stand. SPECIFICO talk 16:10, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - The discussion on the article talk page has been extremely lengthy. The editors are reminded to be concise in commenting here, especially before a volunteer starts moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
• @Smerus: has kindly notified me of this discussion. I am not involved, but have commented on sources and tweaked some text. I discovered, before this notification, that Chip-chip-2020 had been adding POV content on de.wikipedia.org, fr.wikipedia.org, pl.wikipedia.org and en.wikipedia.org concerning Tytus Woyciechowski and Frédéric Chopin, with a narrative linking the pair. This attempt of Chip-chip-2020 to establish a "proven" link appears to be WP:RECENTISM plus WP:ACTIVISM. The posting to WP:DRN seems ill-advised. Mathsci (talk) 19:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Report socks at SPI. Seemplez {{ping}} me 13:01, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

@Smerus: This evening has been disrupted by edits to Waltzes, Op. 70 (Chopin) (that previously happened on 12 November 2020). ‎Chip-chip-2020 has decided for the second time to use the article as a WP:COATRACK for WP:ACTIVISM for an unsubstantiated affair between Chopin and Woyceichowski. Two IPs have been involved in the previous set of edits, both of them from Zurich (where the broadcast originated). Chip-chip-2020 has reproduced the same content and image, which might suggest sock/meatpuppetry. Mathsci (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2020 (UTC) I didn't see Mathsci's comment before I added mine, but I agree that someone so well-versed in WP rules whose first edit was 15 November 2020 suggests a sockpuppet. - kosboot (talk) 23:04, 12 December 2020 (UTC) I would just add that Chip-chip-2020's editing history at the de/fr/pl WPs also began in mid-November this year. Toccata quarta (talk) 06:32, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

• Please also note that a second (though considerably smaller) discussion on Chopin's sexuality is being conducted at Talk:Waltzes, Op. 70 (Chopin). Toccata quarta (talk) 07:52, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
• Thank you very much for the contributions so far. I‘d suggest we see what Glissando1234567890 and François Robere have to say to what this discussion originally was supposed to be about. And perhaps a volunteer like Robert McClenon in the meantime could comment on the tone of the previous contributions?--Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 14:15, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - Based on the request by User:Chip-chip-2020, I will review the comments in more detail and comment on them and their tone within 24 hours. I didn't have to review them in detail in order to comment on their length. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

• If you are to do this, please also note the contributions to the discussion by Special:Contributions/2001:8003:5309:BA00:E07E:35C7:5196:38E8 who for some reason was not listed here by User:Chip-chip-2020 - --Smerus (talk) 10:36, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Chopin)

As long as I have read through the very long statements once, I might as well take this a little further. Please read the rules that are in effect. It should not be necessary for me to restate the rules. Sometimes when I say "Be civil and concise", I emphasize, "Be civil". In this case, I will emphasize, "Be concise". The comments on the talk page are mostly civil, and are repetitious. I was asked to comment on the tone. I have no particular comments on the tone except that one unregistered editor has been uncivil. Other editors have been civil and long-winded, and what we need is to summarize them. It appears to me that Chopin's sexuality is a matter of considerable continued discussion. That is clear to me. We need some formulation to state that his sexuality is a matter of continued discussion. I didn't try to review the reliability of the sources with different viewpoints. It would be ideal to find some mutually agreeable formulation of the differing viewpoints. Otherwise we will develop two or three candidate versions of the section and have an RFC to choose between them.

Each editor should think about what can be said that will present the different viewpoints with due weight.

Now: Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they think should be said as a neutral balanced summary of what reliable sources say? Do not just focus on what you think his orientation or sexuality was, but on what you think scholars say his orientation or sexuality was. Do not respond to each other, except in the space for back-and-forth discussion. Address your comments to me, and to the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Chopin)

• I think biographical elements (sending of affectionate letters as related by *biographers* Zamoyski, Walker, etc) should be separated from gender studies (i.e., Kallberg's approach). The biographical elements should be summarized in the biographical narrative (Frédéric Chopin#Life), chronologically (that is, where both Zamoyski and Walker place it in their biographical narratives – not an appended separate subsection); the gender studies aspect is entirely reception/legacy and should be moved down, around where the current Frédéric Chopin#Reception and influence subsection is (where it is a rather tiny aspect, so likely also not a separate (sub)section). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you, Robert McClenon, for the resumé and for opening the debate. Proved biographical content should be in the upper part (Frédéric Chopin#Life). Unproved (such as the alleged stories around Gladkowska and Wodzinska) should me removed or mentioned neutrally. Wordings like „secretly engaged“ or „secretly in love“ are not reliable information. And the quote from the Chopin Institute confirms that. 1-2 quotes by Chopin himself taken from his numerous and long letters to Woyciechowski should be introduced though, as suggested by many users in the talk. The letter from 3.10.1829 was pointed out for various reasons, also for the mistranslation issue, which would also be worth to mentioned, since the translations are the basis for non-polish-scholarship. For example Glissando1234567890, Boud, [[User:François Robere|François Robere], Francis Schonken suggested introducing Quotes or Fotos or pointed out interesting aspects of the mistranslation-issue. Quotes in correct side-by-side translations would be appropriate, as suggested in the talk.

Apart from the proven facts in the life-section, in the „sexuality“-section, the different points of view of the debate should be shown neutrally. It is important to be careful about the sources, since Walker and Zamoyski are writing things like „mental twist“, or „[Chopin] could have added the name of Konstancja“ (to a letter to Woyciechowski), or „he secretly dedicated the Adagio to her“ (without mentioning any proof, and also in the newest edition of the score there is no dedication mentioned).

In the sexuality-section (Frédéric Chopin#Chopin's_sexuality), it should also be mentioned, that the radio-features became not just a topic in Poland, but were also reviewed or further investigated in publications like The Times, CNN, Guardian, also in various languages like Hindi or Japanese. Best, --Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 08:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I broadly agree with Francis Schonken's summary above as regards allocating the topic(s). The question is how much detail is appropriate. As regards Chopin's sexuality, it only needs (imo) a sentence noting that the correspondence with Woychiekowski has given rise to discussion about Chopin's sexual orientation at the time of writing them, and then citations of (say) Walker and Zamoyski. Chip-chip-2020 is absolutely unjustified in talking about "unproved...alleged stories around Gladkowska and Wodzinska"; this is pure WP:OR as there is plenty of evidence about these two in other people's correspondence of the period. To elaborate on this sort of speculation is just being WP:POINTy. As regards Kallberg's speculaltions, these are indeed pretty esoteric and don't deserve much more than a brief reference in a 'legacy' section. Further, there is no good reason to go overboard about a poorly sourced program last month on Swiss radio which had little or no balance whatever, and whose false controversiality (because the issues it discussed were well known) gained it a transient wider media coverage.

The broader context is that this is an FA article on a major figure in music history, and needs to meet fully standards about using reliable secondary sources if it is to retain that status; it receives 3-4,000 views a day, and it is essential for the reputation of WP that it remains WP:NPOV and avoids WP:RECENTISM. Context and proportion are therefore essential. Chip-chip-2020 above is urging that all sorts of doubtful and marginally relevant detail should be added as, somehow, by right; that is the argument of a partisan. Francis Schonken is suggesting that material should be properly evaluated and appropriately placed; this must be the right approach.--Smerus (talk) 16:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: I dispute that any of this section is in good shape or that any of it is NPOV DUE WEIGHT for this article. It's poorly sourced and conflates many diverse issues, none of which is adequately verified or tied to the subject of the article aside from speculation. Noting the recent references to this as a Featured Article, I think the entire section should be removed until such time as it is fit to print. SPECIFICO talk 16:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

• I totally agree with Smerus: that the article's FA status requires careful evaluation of any additions. Ultimately, this is a very ambiguous aspect of Chopin's life which probably can never be verified with conclusive evidence. Thus it's not so much about Chopin but rather about 21st century attempts at deriving new information based on new interpretations of his correspondence. Although I feel it should not be in the article, it needs to be there primarily for the purpose of forestalling additional fantasy and speculation such as the sensationalist Swiss radio broadcast. - kosboot (talk) 19:17, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

• I agree with everything Kosboot has written. As always I will link Chopin and Schubert. About 6 months ago, I helped write the very brief paragraph about Franz Schubert's sexuality in the eponymous article. Questions about sexuality dating from 1989 were put in "Teacher ..." (his adolescence), not legacy or reception. Similar scholarly questions about Chopin's sexuality were raised in the 1990s. In Talk:Frédéric Chopin, several editors have suggested that "images and quotes" might be added to the section on Chopin's sexuality. Most Chopin biographers, aware of his adolescent letters, briefly discuss their significance. Music Prof Kallberg studies 19C and social mores in a liberal framework; his work is accessible in book reviews. Recent media reports that "Chopin is gay" are similar to 1989 headlines about Schubert; but now, when discussing music and sexuality, trained academic researchers often speak of the otherness or otherworldliness of a composer. Mathsci (talk) 21:22, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I am in sympathy with the immediately above views of SPECIFICO and kosboot. The speculations about Chopin's gender orientation and sexuality are part of a trend of "fake news"; and while it is important to "fact-check" allegations placed before the public, I am not sure that Wikipedia should become a repository of misguided speculations. Thank you. Nihil novi (talk) 21:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Robert McClenon: Other than changes to readability, which I've explained here,[1] I think we ought to mention three more claims: first is Brett and Wood's statement on biographers trying to (essentially) heteronormalize Chopin and other composers; second is a response from the Chopin Institute that there's no direct evidence of romantic involvement between him and two of his most famous (alleged) female lovers; and third is Pizá's opinion that "clearly Chopin had homosexual desires", and that he was surely aware of his friend Marquise de Custine's fate as an openly homosexual man in liberal France, who was beaten half to death some years before they made their acquaintance. Pizá implies that Chopin was either gay or bisexual, and that characterising him as feminine and asexual was an attempt at "taming" him as an artist and a public figure, echoing what Brett and Wood wrote. François Robere (talk) 15:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Reflist

References

Second statement by moderator (Chopin)

The views of the editors taking part in this DRN appear to have three different viewpoints as to what to say about Chopin's sexuality. The filing editor wishes to make some statements about Chopin's sexuality (basically that he was bisexual) based on modern publications. Two editors have stated that these statements need to be properly evaluated and appropriately placed. Four editors have expressed the opinion that the challenged statements are undersourced or non-neutral and are not encyclopedic, and should be removed.

If the editors want to work toward compromise, which would involve evaluating the material in question, we can proceed toward compromise. However, it seems that a Request for Comments is in order. I am asking the editor who wants to add material to provide the paragraph or paragraphs to be added, specifying where to add them. The editors who don't want anything added do not need to provide any input to the RFC. They can provide their arguments against the addition when the RFC is published. The two editors who are taking a middle position should state what they want as a middle option in the RFC.

If there are remaining questions, please ask them now, because otherwise I would like to get the RFC started before the December solstice. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Moderator Comment

I have moved the material that was included by User:Chip-Chip-2020 to a subpage, because it displays images and is otherwise longer than is usual in-line for DRN. I am not taking issue with the inclusion of the material by User:Chip-Chip-2020, but it makes reading of DRN not flow well. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:16, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (Chopin)

• Supposing I am a "middle man" per the moderator's classification (correct?), I am, I think, invited to state a middle position. Keeping it brief, I think a middle position would be that sources which are classified as "generally reliable" at WP:RSP would be accepted so, without having to go through the movements at WP:RSN. These include a New York Times article about Walker's Chopin biography, and CNN, The Independent and The Guardian articles about the SRF radio broadcast. Not saying we need large wads of text in Wikipedia's Chopin biography based on these sources, but a decent mentioning of the key topic (Chopin's sexuality) from these reliable sources should be included in the biographical section of the Chopin article. The "gender" material (i.e. Kallberg), and other reception-related material, should get no more than brief mentioning in the "Reception"-related sections of the Chopin article (not disturbing the DUE/UNDUE balance of the reception narrative). Other than that, I can confirm that I agree with the moderator's proposal that this is rather suitable for a RFC procedure than a DRN page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:30, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
• In case it will be helpful in preparing proposed text, I would like to state that the only source that appears to be RS as a somewhat qualified expert opinion is the Kallberg. It's pretty clear that any proposal based on newspaper accounts of radio accounts is going to be rejected, so OP might consider streamlining any proposal. SPECIFICO talk 17:40, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
• I agree with Francis regarding sourcing; I think WP:DUE adequately covers this situation, and see no need to withhold reliable mass media sources. I also agree that the Kallberg-on-music paragraph can be trimmed and moved to #Reception. I would like to see added a brief statement from Brett and Wood, another statement from Pizá, and part of the comment from the Chopin institute to the SRF piece. François Robere (talk) 15:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
• Articles about the SRF radio broadcast are not relevant sources; they are comments on a radio broadcast, not per se informed or reliable sources for a life of Chopin (which is the subject of this article). It is not a matter of 'witholding' mass-media sources - it is a question of seriously evaluating what they can contribute to an FA article. No one, despite this lengthy discussion here and on the talk page, has produced any evidence from any reliable source that Chopin was a practising homosexual at any stage of his career. There is suggestive evidence both that he had homoerotic thoughts at around the age of twenty, and that he had sexual relations with George Sand, as well as that he was attracted to Gladowska and was engaged to Wodzińska. That's it. Brett and Wood appear to have said nothing specific about Chopin - what is the 'brief statement' that François Robere would like to see? Pizá's comments on Chopin's sexuality are hypothesis without evidence base. Of course, as I have said on the talk page, absence of evidence about Chopin's sexual procliivites is not evidence of absence - but WP does not exist to peddle the hypotheses of its editors. Once again I remind editors that this is an FA article which needs to meet FA standards. It's not a rattle bag for chit-chat. I am also by the way concerned about the suggestions by User:Mathsci, User:kosboot and User:Toccata quarta of sock-puppeting in this matter, which I should like to see investigated.--Smerus (talk) 09:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
• I would suggest to add in a first steps the texts, pictures and citations below. The quote by Chopin could be placed in the life-section or in the sexuality-section. If placed in the sexuality-section it should be followed by the various interpretations of this passage and other erotic or affectionate passages (for example Larivière recognizing them as clearly homoerotic, Gesine Baur recognizing them as „Liebeserklärungen“, Alan Walker calling it highly erotic but a „mental twist“, or Zamoyski writing, Chopin could have added the name of a woman to some of these passages).

Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Chip-Chip-2020 portion

--Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 12:12, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Chopin)

After reviewing the material that I moved to a section for User:Chip-chip-2020, I see that it is not formatted appropriately for a section of a Wikipedia article. Each editor who wants to propose any material on Chopin's sexuality should prepare a draft paragraph or section, so that I will be able to include it in the RFC (Request for Comments). That is, do not describe in general terms what you want the article to say. Write exactly what you want the article to say. If you have questions about this request, please ask the questions now. I would still like to get the RFC published within a week. It will take thirty days to run. You may put your recommended text in-line here, or create a subpage, except that if you include any images, please create a subpage, so as not to distract readers of DRN. Please write what you want the article to say, and we will ask the community to decide. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:27, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Chopin)

Chopin: 3rd statement by Francis

Proposal (seen as 3rd and last subsection added to Frédéric Chopin#Early Life):

---

===Affections===

Early October 1829 Chopin wrote to Woyciechowski:

[...] mam mój ideał, któremu wiernie, nie mówiąc z nim już pół roku, służę, który mi się śni, na którego pamiątkę stanęło adagio od mojego koncertu, który mi inspirował tego walczyka dziś rano, co ci posyłam.

[...] I [...] have my own ideal, which I have served faithfully, though silently, for half a year; of which I dream, to thoughts of which the adagio of my concerto belongs, and which this morning inspired the little waltz I am sending you.

—Chopin to Woyciechowski (3 October 1829) —Translation by Ethel Voynich (1931)

The "adagio" is the second movement (Larghetto) of his Piano Concerto Op. 21, and the "little waltz" is his Op. posth. 70, No. 3, in D-flat major. Chopin did not clarify who his "ideal" was: other translators, such as Arthur Hedley (1962) and David Frick (2016), assume he wrote about a woman, which dovetails with biographers usually assuming that Konstancja Gładkowska was meant. From a letter to Woyciechowski, which Chopin wrote some eleven months later, a few weeks before leaving Poland definitively:

Idę się umywać, nie całuj mię teraz, bom się jeszcze nie umył. — Ty? chociażbym się olejkami wysmarował bizantyjskimi, nie pocałowałbyś, gdybym ja Ciebie magnetycznym sposobem do tego nie przymusił. Jest jakaś siła w naturze. Dziś Ci się śnić będzie, że mnie całujesz. Muszę Ci oddać za szkaradny sen, jakiś mi dziś w nocy sprowadził.

I am going to wash now; don't kiss me, I'm not washed yet. You? If I were smeared with the oils of Byzantium, you would not kiss me unless I forced you to it by magnetism. There's some kind of power in nature. Today you will dream of kissing me! I have got to pay you out for the horrible dream you gave me last night.

—Chopin to Woyciechowski (4 September 1830) —Translation by Ethel Voynich (1931)

Biographer Adam Zamoyski considers the passage consistent with how feelings were expressed in the Romantic era. According to biographer Alan Walker, the passage is undeniably erotic. Music critic Corinna da Fonseca-Wollheim described Walker's downplaying of a possible affair between Chopin and Woyciechowski as "hand-wringing". In 2020, a broadcast by Schweizer Radio und Fernsehen went a step further in suggesting that the "ideal", mentioned by Chopin in his letter of 3 October 1829, may have been Woyciechowski, the recipient of the letter.

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The proposal would replace the explanatory footnote "n 6" which recently appeared. List of references:

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References

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Sources that go with the shortened references in the above proposal are:

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• Walker, Alan (2018). Fryderyk Chopin: A Life and Times. Farrar, Straus and Giroux. ISBN 9780374714376
• Weber, Moritz (7 December 2020). "Chopin war schwul – und niemand sollte davon erfahren" [Chopin was gay and no one must know about it]. Schweizer Radio und Fernsehen (in German).
• Zamoyski, Adam (2010). Chopin: Prince of the Romantics (e-book ed.). London: HarperCollins. ISBN 978-0-00-735182-4. OCLC 891811930. Revised from Chopin: A Biography (1979){{cite book}}: CS1 maint: postscript (link)

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IMHO, images and other illustrating files can be chosen independently. I'd consider these two:

• File:Tytus Woyciechowski.jpg – not totally convinced this would make a useful addition, in view of the negative comments it got at Talk:Frédéric Chopin#Images and quotes.
• File:Frédéric Chopin - Concerto 2 in F minor, 2nd movement.ogg – audio file of the "adagio" Chopin mentioned in his letter of 3 October 1829, which, if chosen, is to be presented in a {{listen}} box.

As for the other material currently in the "Sexuality" section of the Chopin article:

• Pizá and Kallberg material can be moved to the Frédéric Chopin#Reception and influence section (imho also best to condense the Kallberg materal somewhat more)
• The Sand and Solange material probably better in the 4th and 5th subsections of Frédéric Chopin#Career (whithout prejudice about possibly reworking this prose a bit)
• The biographical part of the de Custine material rewritten and appended to the 3rd paragraph in the Frédéric Chopin#Paris section.

After which the "Sexuality" subsection title can be removed. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:38, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Chopin), continued

• This seems to me not unreasonable; I would suggest that the comment on Walker by Fonseca-Wollheim could go into a note, rather than the text. Thank you, Francis, for taking the trouble to set this out. I don't believe that the addition of the portrait of Tytus is useful, but the audio file is a nice idea.--Smerus (talk) 13:22, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
• The main editor of this FA has been User:Smerus. So far WP:CONSENSUS has been to put the new material from November 2020 into a footnote; and new ideas for changing the Chopin article have always been directly discussed on its talk page (to establish consensus). At the moment consensus has rejected parallel translations into Polish/English. In the current section on "sexuality", which has now shrunk, Kallberg's commentary on nocturnes and femininity remains; in his own work he has used a painting of salon music to illustrate the topic. Mathsci (talk) 09:03, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion

• @Smerus:
  • No one... has produced any evidence from any reliable source that Chopin was a practising homosexual at any stage of his career No one produced evidence that he was a practising heterosexual either, yet the text is written under the assumption that he was.

• No one has produced any evidence that Chopin was not from outer space. Yet the text is written under the assumption that he was an Earthling.--Smerus (talk) 13:27, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

• • Articles about the SRF radio broadcast are not relevant sources Commenters quoted in those articles include Aleksander Laskowski, spokeperson for the Fryderyk Chopin Institute; and David Frick, Prof. em. at the Dept of Slavic Languages and Literatures at UC Berkley, who translated Chopin's letters. Surely these two are relevant for our purpose.
  • Brett and Wood criticize the literature for assuming by default that Chopin is heterosexual lest a smoking gun is provided (not unlike some of our colleagues here), all the while showing "a constant embarrassment or evasion that supports the point about an ingrained homophobia in music scholarship". Some part of this would make a good addition, but what exactly depends on how we write the rest of the section.
  • Pizá's comments on Chopin's sexuality are hypothesis without evidence base No, they're interpretations of existing evidence - just like Walker and Zamoyski's comments, which we do mention.
  • WP does not exist to peddle the hypotheses of its editors Yet we do in the existing text.

• The existing text is supported by citations from appropriate authorities, as per WP standards.--Smerus (talk) 13:27, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

François Robere (talk) 14:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war

– New discussion.

Filed by Steverci on 01:09, 17 December 2020 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Steverci (talk · contribs)
• CuriousGolden (talk · contribs)
• Grandmaster (talk · contribs)
• Solavirum (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have proposed making a number of changes to the belligerents list in the article's infobox, and backed them all up with many sources. Armenia, like Turkey, did not officially declare war despite both nations being heavily involved. For example, no fighting took place in Armenia's borders, even when enemy forces reached them. Both Armenia and Turkey should be listed under a "Supported by:" or being listed as full belligerents. Personally, I support the former because it better reflects how no fighting could take place in their borders due to a lack of declaration of war. However, Erdogan's support has been stated by many sources to have been vital and decisive, so he should also be listed in the leaders. Russia should also be removed as a belligerent completely because the Russian government made an official statement that it doesn't support Artsakh. And "Armenian diaspora volunteers" should be removed from the infobox, because these are individual cases and not the result of organization's official backing, unlike the Syrian mercenaries (which were recruited and deployed by Turkey). Thus, it is giving them too much undue weight.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#Infobox_belligerents_changes

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I would like for users that have no personal bias in the subject to review the arguments and evidence put forward, and help discuss what changes should be made.

Summary of dispute by CuriousGolden

I'm not too involved in this discussion, but the user's proposals of additions and removals are simply wrong. They're using unreliable sources or are cherry-picking from various sources to match the additions/removals they want to implement. I stopped engaging in the discussion after Steverci asked what's wrong with an obviously non-WP:RS, biased source, yet questioned the reliability of Al Jazeera, as I realized the discussion wasn't going anywhere. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 21:09, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Grandmaster

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Edits proposed by Steverci are absolutely unacceptable, as I tried to explain to him. First of, Armenia is a party to conflict, it is directly involved in it, and moreover, it is legally recognized as a belligerent. 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh ceasefire agreement was signed between Azerbaijan and Armenia, with Russia as a mediator. If Armenia is not directly involved in the conflict, as a belligerent, how could it sign the ceasefire agreement? Armenia agrees to stop fire, and according to the text, "The Republic of Armenia shall return the Kalbajar District to the Republic of Azerbaijan by November 15, 2020, and the Lachin District by December 1, 2020". If Armenia is not involved directly, how could it occupy districts of Azerbaijan, and agree to withdraw from them? It defies common logic.

In addition, most of Armenians fighting in Karabakh were soldiers and officers drafted from Armenia. Just yesterday dozens of Armenian soldiers were taken prisoner by Azerbaijani army, it turns out they were all from Shirak Province in Armenia, and their relatives are protesting now. [2] If Armenia is not involved, how did those soldiers from Shirak get to Nagorno-Karabakh?

As for role of Turkey, there's no reliable source to support direct involvement of Turkey in the conflict as a belligerent. Turkey provided support to Azerbaijan by training personnel and providing arms, and also expressed political and diplomatic support. But Turkish army was not involved in the hostilities. Most of mainstream sources do not support this claim, and marginal sources are not sufficient to support it. And Russia is not listed as a belligerent.

"Armenian diaspora volunteers" were involved in the fighting, and their presence is well documented and is confirmed by the Armenian side as well. I see no reason why infobox should not reflect this verifiable fact. Grandmaster 16:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Solavirum

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Every single WP:RS mentions Armenia as a belligerent in the war. Even Armenia has confirmed it on several occasions. They literally were the ones to sign the ceasefire agreement on their and Artsakh's behalf. Thousands of soldiers from Armenia were killed, and they were buried in Armenia Even Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights had reported that a huge chunk of the ethnic Armenian soldiers in Nagorno-Karabakh were from Armenia.

Removing Russia is a joke. Russian government made an official statement that it doesn't support Artsakh, so what? This isn't the first time we've seen a giant power denying that it finances a proxy in a war. Iran might've denied the reports but has yet to prove its claims. Many ethnic Azerbaijanis in Iran also protested the country serving as a gateway for Russian arms. If we remove Russia, we'd have to remove the Syrians too. As there's also no direct evidence on their involvement, and that they've officially denied taking part in the war.

Claiming that Turkey took part in the war directly, as a belligerent, is WP:OR and the user's own interpretation. Only the Armenian government and Armenia-funded Russian partisan sources like WarGonzo claims such a thing. There's not a single WP:RS that states Turkish forces were fighting in Karabakh.

Removing the Armenian volunteers is, again, a false narrative. There are reports that ethnic Armenians from Lebanon, US, Syria, and other places, numbering in hundreds, and possibly thousands had taken part in the war. Thousands of individual cases (as Sterverci put it) are well enough to show that non-Armenian nationals took part in the war. In the meanwhile, these reports also give organized involvement, like ex-ASALA members and the Nubar Ozanyan Brigade of the SDF.

Sterverci seems like he wants to show the as Artsakh vs. Azerbaijan, Turkey, Syria, while it isn't the case at all. He can head to Armenian Wikipedia for such things, as English Wikipedia isn't preferred for a narrative pushing.

References

--► Sincerely: SolaVirum 13:40, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

2020 Ganja missile attacks

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Steverci on 01:38, 17 December 2020 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2020 Ganja missile attacks (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Steverci (talk · contribs)
• CuriousGolden (talk · contribs)
• Solavirum (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This subject event took place after the 2020 bombardment of Stepanakert. I had added this fact to the article, along with several citations supporting it. CuriousGolden reverted the change, asking for a source that "links these two events". I went on the talk page and provided just, that, giving yet another source from as official Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. However, CuriousGolden now appears to be trying to move the goalposts, asking for a source that explicitly links the article to "retaliation to attacks on Stepanakert", even though my edit had never stated that. Given that the Foreign Affairs Minister referred to Stepanakert when asked about Ganja, this means that it is important to tell the reader that Stepanakert happened first. The article currently gives the impression that the missile attacks were unprovoked. The talk page discussion had devolved to an argument about interpretation of sources. Although I had shown the sources I provided to clear and reliable, I decided to seek a dispute resolution to prevent edit warring.

I would also like to add I wanted to add the Stepanakert attacks to the Bombardment of Tartar article as well, which happened only one day before Stepanakert, yet Stepanakert isn't mentioned on the article at all. The talk page discussion could only take place in one place, but it was about both articles.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:2020_Ganja_missile_attacks#2020_bombardment_of_Stepanakert

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Please take a look at the revision changes and talk page discussion, and help discuss if you think the Stepanakert bombardment should be mentioned as having taken place previously or not.

Summary of dispute by CuriousGolden

Steverci tries to draw connections between 2 unrelated events without providing any proper source and puts it in lead. And when asked to provide a WP:RS that connects these 2 events, they accuse me of WP:JDLI and moving the goalposts even though I asked for the same thing the entire discussion, even when I first reverted their addition. It's not really a dispute, I asked them to provide a WP:RS to support their WP:OR and they failed.

Summary of dispute by Solavirum

He isn't telling the full story here. Steverci tried to relate those things, and tried to make it look like a "revenge attack". The MoFA source he refers to doesn't even state such a thing. There's not enough, actually, not a single WP:RS that states that, and this is just his own assumption. I call this particular case WP:OR and WP:NOTAFORUM, but overall, the user has worrying activity. This includes his rhetoric, with remarks like it hurts the victim narrative the article tries to sell. He also wanted to remove Armenia as a belligerent in the article about the war. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 07:14, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

2020 Ganja missile attacks discussion

Volunteer Statement

I'm happy to mediate this, however Steverci If this is the only source you have- your current changes constitute WP:OR You cannot add the word revenge if its not stated by a source clearly. However, I'm happy to mediate a discussion to find a more appropriate way to include a link between the two attacks if you would like. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I never used the word "revenge" to describe the attacks, not even on the talk page. My edits stated "The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles by Azerbaijan against civilian areas in Stepanakert" and "On 27 September 2020, Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against civilian areas in the bombardment of Stepanakert." Like I said, there has been some attempted goalpost shifting. Here is my edit on the article, which also includes 3 more sources. --Steverci (talk) 17:42, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

All of the sources you provided are about the bombing of Stepanakert, none of them draws connections between Ganja and Stepanakert bombings, as you implied, which is what this whole "dispute" is about. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:48, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

There are three sources (from Eurasianet.org, BBC, and Mediamax) used for the warning by Arayik Harutyunyan. His quote from the first article: "The Azerbaijani terrorist army is targeting civilians in Stepanakert, using Polonez and Smerch MLRS,” said Arayik Harutyunyan, the de facto leader of Karabakh, on October 4. “From now on military objects in large cities of Azerbaijan are the target of the Defense Army of Artsakh [the Armenian word for Karabakh]. Calling on Azerbaijani population to leave these cities to avoid inevitable loss.". So whoever wrote this left out the reason for the warning (almost making it appear as a threat) and left out that Azerbaijan was the first to target civilians. I'm sure it was unintentional though. --Steverci (talk) 23:54, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Kind of a useless warning when a separatist leader warns another nation in a language they don't understand, which was pointed out by Human Rights Watch. Again, those 3 sources all are about the separatist leader's "warning", none of them draws connections between the 2 attacks. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 08:28, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Unless you find solid sources that directly states that this was in retaliation, or that these are related to each other, these are not going to added. This, by defition, is WP:OR. If none of the WP:RS mentions Stepanakert/Khankendi alongside Ganja or Tartar, we don't add it. If we followed your logic, we'd have to write that every single individual war crime reportedly committed by the Azerbaijani servicemen would pass under as a revenge for Khojaly. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 13:11, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Volunteer Statement 2

I'm sorry, if you don't have a source that specifically states a link- This is WP:OR. Also- I would like to remind those involved that back and forth discussion should be limited. Please engage with the volunteer, not each other. Now, Steverci do you have a source that says- specifically "These attacks are related"? If not, I'm afraid there is nothing to discuss. It doesn't matter if its obvious, or if they forgot to include something- it has to specifically be stated that Incident A is linked to, caused by, or revenge for, Incident B.Nightenbelle (talk) 18:53, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

As I cited above and on the talk page,

• "The Azerbaijani terrorist army is targeting civilians in Stepanakert, using Polonez and Smerch MLRS. From now on military objects in large cities of Azerbaijan are the target of the Defense Army of Artsakh" - Harutyunyan[3]
• Meanwhile, Nagorno-Karabakh's authorities said that they had destroyed Ganja's military airport. They said they had acted after Stepanakert was hit by missiles and alleged the Ganja facility had been used by Azerbaijani forces to launch attacks on civilian areas - BBC.[4]
• Harutyunyan has underlined that Azerbaijan was the first to violate the international law by targeting civilian population. - Mediamax[5]
• Interview where BBC journalist asks why Ganja was targeted, and Foreign Minister Mnatsakanyan replies with the shelling and bombing of Stepanakert as well as other civilian locations[6] --Steverci (talk) 20:28, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

  So all those sources are just claims of the Armenian leaders, and not third party sources? The last source, Mnatsakanyan, repeatedly evades question of BBC, and does not say that Ganja bombed in response for Stepanakert. When asked about attacks on Ganja, he starts talking about attacks on Stepanakert, and when journalists asks what does it have to do with Ganja, he continues talking about the same thing. Weird. And Ganja airport was not hit, despite claims of separatist leader. Not a reliable source. Grandmaster 10:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

  Eurasianet and BBC aren't third-party sources? Actually, BBC could probably be considered pro-Azeri now that they have an Azeri subsection. This actually explains why the interviewing journalist was so biased and unprofessional. Mnatsakanyan didn't evade anything, he answered the question by exposing what the journalist omitted: because they targeted civilians first. About the airport, BBC was just reporting the official statement. Eurasianet, BBC, and Mediamax all quoted Artsakh authorities that the missile attacks were because of the bombardment of Stepanakert. There's really nothing more to say. --Steverci (talk) 23:40, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

  I did not say that BBC itself was biased. But BBC only reported what Armenian officials said. And Mnatsakanyan made no explicit connection between the two events, despite BBC reporter pressing him. And no third party reliable source stated that one attack was a response to the other. Grandmaster 10:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

All of the 3 sources are quoting the Artsakh authorities and that quote is that Artsakh allegedly fired Ganja because there were military facilities there. And that allegation is already mentioned in the Background section of the article, including the "warning" they gave. So, the whole point of this dispute seems odd to me. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 10:30, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Volunteer Statement 3

The BBC providing direct transcripts of interviews is not a third party source- that is still considered primary I'm afraid. And none of those quotes say that they are retaliation- just that the other side attacked first- which is different. Saying its retaliation is WP:OR unless someone says "We attacked BECAUSE they attacked" not- Well they went first so they are bad guys. You are inferring it is revenge- and you are probably right, but until a WP:RS says it- we can't put that in the encyclopedia. So, are there any 2nd or 3rd party sources that are providing comentary on this being revenge? Nightenbelle (talk) 15:04, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Timeline of BBC One

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Rillington on 14:20, 18 December 2020 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Timeline of BBC One (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Rillington (talk · contribs) 82.3.149.129 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Someone who only edits using an IP address has recently kept reverting an edit from the 1997 section of this article and I keep reverting it back to my version. I have tried to modify the article to try to appease this editor but this editor still reverts the addition nonetheless. I see no other way to resolve this other than asking for a dispute resolution. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? I've tried to reword the entry that the editor keeps reverting but the IP address continues to do this nonetheless. The editor posted a comment on my talkpage and then after I replied, 'undid' and ignored my reply and reposted with the same comment I'd replied to. How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Can you please rule as to whose version of the 1997 section of this article should be used. Summary of dispute by 82.3.149.129 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Timeline of BBC One discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lola Astanova

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by JPS1965 on 22:02, 18 December 2020 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Lola Astanova (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved JPS1965 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I am a fan of Lola Astanova, so periodically I add information to her page with references to open media sources. Over the past several months, several users appear to constantly make arbitrary changes to my additions and never providing any reasoning or references for changes. I have always explained my edits in the talk, but they simply remove my changes without engaging in the conversation or providing any grounds for their edits. Specifically, they do the following: 1. The constantly change the year of birth from 1985 (as I reference in a Haute Living magazine article) to 1982. 2. They constantly change the country of birth from USSR or Soviet Union to Uzbek SSR, which was NOT a country, but rather a region of the USSR where Ms. Astanova was born. It is inaccurate to call it "Uzbek SSR" by any measure. 3. They removed information regarding Ms. Astanova's duet of Hauser of the 2cellos, regarding her film project with Andrea Bocelli and David Foster, and regarding her electronic music release by Sony Music earlier this year. Every single piece of information I added was referenced by public sources and was easily verifiable through iTunes, YouTube and other platforms where those projects are available. Removal of that information for no reason and with no explanation appears malicious. The users who are doing that appear to have an agenda and they are not sticking to just listing the facts with public source references. I am asking to please look into these instances and help protect the page's accuracy and integrity. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_Astanova How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I am not a very advanced user of Wiki, I simply want to add the facts to the artist's page without any opinions or agenda. I'd like to make sure that the facts are not being maliciously removed and changed by other users without any references. I'd like for the community to clarify the rules for the other users, and help me bring this matter to the administrator's attention, so that they page stays accurate and up-to date. THANK YOU! Lola Astanova discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Textile

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by RAJIVVASUDEV on 03:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Textile (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved RAJIVVASUDEV (talk · contribs) Roxy the dog (talk · contribs) Dispute overview It is about the recently added section Piecegoods that is mentioned in a few textile articles but never explained what is it and why it was produced and traded. The section was cited but even then reverted. Thanks and regards How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? To avoid edit war, initiated the discussion on the talk page, asked help from an expert and other users also. Kindly advice. [[7]][[8]] How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Piece goods should be a section/part of textiles. Wikipedia maintains an inclusion threshold of "verifiability, not truth." Hence we can not delete any info bearing RS, importantly when it is absent from the encyclopedia. Summary of dispute by Roxy I will not be taking part in this process. Rajiv cannot communicate effectively in English - I believe that WP:CIR applies to language ability too. His badly written notification of this request on my Talk page was conflated with a 3O request such that I had no idea that a DRN had been filed. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 22:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC) Roxy the dog, please do not harp on the same(Mum [[9]] )narrative. DRN is a venue for resolving disputes over articles, and We should maintain the decorum WP: EQ, WP: DR of this forum. We had enough discussion on the talk:piecegoodsand talk: textile. Hence we both should not blame each other. Like you are not an expert in the textile field and considered khes is Kesh (Sikhism), I might not know every policy and noticeboard. Let DRN stay focused on the article, not Rajiv, because Rajiv and Roxy is not the topic. Thanks and regardsRAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 02:59, 20 December 2020 (UTC) Textile discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not listed the other editor and has not notified them. They should be listed, and should be notified of this filing. The filing editor is cautioned to be civil and not to be confrontational in edit summaries. A Third Opinion would be a lightweight method of trying to resolve this dispute, rather than moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.