Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

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    Welcome to the external links noticeboard
    This page is for reporting possible breaches of the external links guideline.
    • Post questions here regarding whether particular external links are appropriate or compliant with Wikipedia's guidelines for external links.
    • Provide links to the relevant article(s), talk page(s), and external links(s) that are being discussed.
    • Questions about prominent websites like YouTube, IMDb, Twitter, or Find a Grave might be addressed with information from this guide.
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    Collected news and commentary

    I noticed a post at User talk:Jimbo Wales#Further reading/External links which draws attention to discussions to add several external links to two articles. As mentioned, the issue applies to a lot of articles: should "collected news and commentary" links be used? I don't think Jimbo's talk is the right place to continue the discussion. The article talk pages are Talk:Hugo Chávez#External links and Talk:Hamid Karzai#External_links. Johnuniq (talk) 01:45, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    A few of these were recently posted by User:75.60.17.118. I agree with the posters (so far) at the two talkpage discussions who feel these are afoul of WP:NOTDIR. The templates can be used in an IAR manner where the collected news appearances are relevant to a particular article, but this should be done rarely. ThemFromSpace 05:28, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • - I have seen this sort thing is almost common and generally accepted? Ed Milliband#External links - David Cameron#External links - Off2riorob (talk) 09:36, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      Its against WP:EL, WP:NOTDIR, and should be removed when seen. Like YouTube videos made by random people, there will be editors who are unaware of the policies and will keep re-adding them. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 13:29, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      Its common practice I reverted your removal at Ed Miliband - it just passed a GA. I suggest your start a discussion because common practice sets a lot of weight here. Its not a bit like youtube videos made by random people - these are all intrinsically reliable wikipedia sources - regards. Off2riorob (talk) 13:31, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      Then common practice is against two policies, and you're edit warring to keep linkcruft which violates them in place. I'm not impressed with GA; GA sets a low bar for EL compliance. Its like Youtube in the respect that they should be used rarely, and carefully, and are often added simply because they exist. That they meet RS does not make them appropriate for every single freaking bio on the site. Puppy has spoken, Puppy is done. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 13:37, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      Common practice is an assertion of acceptable whatever the guidelines say. Off2riorob (talk) 13:38, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      By that logic, pure spam and links to copyright violations would be acceptable just because a lot of clueless people who don't bother to read our policies and guidelines do it. See also WP:EXISTS. DreamGuy (talk) 13:26, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      That is completely false representation of peoples comments. Spam links and copyright violations can and should be removed on sight, that position has nothing to do with this situation. Clueless is just your attacking POV. Off2riorob (talk) 15:00, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    Those are policies, not guidelines, Rob. Dang, you're not on your best game this morning, are you? You edit war to revert a null edit, and now you're confusing policy and guideline. Go get some coffee. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 13:42, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, Jimmy's not exactly always up on current policies and practices. And I think he'd be the first to say that his opinion is generally that, an opinion, no more nor less than other editors. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 13:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    He is however imho correct and by far not the only one seeing it that way. This has been discussed in the past without a real solution or consent (see discussion archives). The EL policy is imho (intentionally) overstated to allow quality assurance an (undefeatable) killer argument against any link it deems inappropriate and in particular to block spam effectively without extensive discussions on each link. So far so good. However in practice this only works because the policy is mostly used with a common sense and restraint, i.e. many EL that may formally fail the policy but are arguable helpful/useful to readers are tolerated. But the policy will fail utterly if it is used without restraint an/or gaming/wiki lawyering to kick out EL at personal whim.--Kmhkmh (talk) 02:04, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    I agree that WP:EL should not be pursued too mechanically (although considerable tenaciousness is often required when combating enthusiastic SPA link adders). However, this discussion has not addressed the central issue: Should there be a "collection" link in an article where the subject is mentioned in that collection? Should "collection" links be in WP:ELYES? In WP:ELMAYBE? Merging four examples mentioned above, here are all the collection links that one person might have (the "External links/Noticeboard" would be the article name):

    Surely collection links should only be used rarely—for cases where the subject is very notable, and where the collection gives real value, and where the length of the collection means it is better to link to the collection rather than to a few selected pages? Many of the above collection examples seem low value to me. Johnuniq (talk) 04:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    Imho occasionally an individual link compiling most online resources (or compiling individual media collections) related to article's subject is ok. That's similar to linking to the open directory project which we already allow explicitly. So if we plan to mention it explicitly in the policy I'd suggest under EL:MAYBE. What I'm skeptical about however is to link collections of a particular media outlet (that should be the exception), because then we might get either media wars as in WSJ versus Economists collections or getting a "collection link farm". In many cases there might be only a very few links of the a media collection that stand out anyway, then I rather link them individually. Say Chavez has given an extensive video interview on Charlie Rose or Al Jazeera or there's a single extensive background article on Chavez in the Economist, then I would link those individually rather giving a collection link that contains anything Al Jazeera or the Economist ever reported on Chavez (including many small news pieces, who might at best be useful for inline references). So in a sense provide the best and cut the crap.--Kmhkmh (talk) 04:42, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    communistcrimes.org

    Is communistcrimes.org which is run by the unitas foundation a suitable external link for Crimes against humanity under Communist regimes It was recently removed and the editor cited "rmv link to propaganda site (per criteria #2 of WP:ELNO))" yet 2 of elno says " except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting" As the article is about crimes against humanity under communism and so is the EL I do not see any issue with it? The Last Angry Man (talk) 23:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    Crimminy. The article title itself seem to be massive bait for POV-pushing and a set up to try to justify use of a rather poor source. DreamGuy (talk) 14:39, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    It was called Communist crimes against humanity but was moved to the current title without discussion and a RM to move it back failed. Which poor source are you on about? The suggested EL is not used as a source in the article. The Last Angry Man (talk) 14:58, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Usually, when we're talking about "articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting", we're talking about religion or pseudoscience, not history. This article isn't really aout "UNITAS's viewpoint on crimes against humanity". (I have no particular view on whether it is "misleading" or "factually inaccurate".) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    School video re: construction features

    I removed the following link from Lynnwood High School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

    The user that added it originally has claimed that similar articles are also linked from other school articles, so I thought it best to get a centralized discussion on the value of the link rather than needing to repeat it on each article's talk page. My personal belief is that the material is already adequately stated and sourced in the section Lynnwood High School#New Lynnwood High School, so the video does not meet the criteria of a link "whose contents might be beyond the scope of inclusion in the article" - so the link fails inclusion criteria of both WP:EL and WP:WPSCHOOLS/AG#OTHER. However, in case others see value I'm not, I wanted to bring this up for discussion. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:03, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    Note: I've notified the other editor involved of this discussion, as well as notifying Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools that there is a discussion started of which the project may have an interest. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:13, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm a big fan of de-spamming articles and have made it my mission to do so for the past couple of years. However, this is the type of link that I would leave in place. If you look at WP:ELNO, the very first of the criteria is about adding value over and above what the article would be were it to reach FA quality. Whatever level the article reached, nothing could convey what the new build is like (or better support the article content) than to show such a well-produced video. I'm normally wary of Youtube content because of the huge amount of piracy (see WP:ELNEVER), but in this case there is no copyright issue as the video has been uploaded by the creator - http://www.studio216.com/ I wholeheartedly support the retention of this link in this article, and would support similar quality videos in other school articles. --Bob Re-born (talk) 16:57, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't have a problem with it if it's used as a citation or even as a "see also" in another citation. I'm not of the persuasion that all Youtube links are equally good or bad, so it should be on a case-by-case basis. Here I think the video could be of assistance in an article that has almost no citations at all. I would not, however, be supportive of it being in the "external links" section since it's about the building and not the school. Some of the other ELs on the page should probably be removed too outside the official school website, district website, and maybe an official report of the school if it isn't already cited in the article. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:18, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    A school is the sum of the building, the staff, and the students. The building - the environment in which the students learn and the staff work - is important and can make a significant difference to the quality and success of learning. --Bob Re-born (talk) 19:41, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed, which is why there is a section within school articles for facilities. But in the end, the facity itself is part of the actual subject. That's more an issue for the schools project than EL, though. The purpose of ELs is to provide additional information on the subject that is beyond the encyclopedic scope of a Wikipedia article. Encyclopedic info in the video should be worked into the article (which is quite heavy in covering the "new" building more than much else). Like I said, I wouldn't have a problem using it as a source or accompanying another source, but I would have a problem just using it in the list of External links at the end since I view that as more tangential information than vital information about the school. --JonRidinger (talk) 19:53, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    As per Bob Re-born, I also "wholeheartedly support the retention of this link in this article, and would support similar quality videos in other school articles". Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:54, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree, with the caveat that videos should be informational in nature and not (blatant) advertisements. ElKevbo (talk) 08:08, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    Link to wiki.creativecommons.org

    I'm a Third Opinion Wikipedian. We've recently had a request for a Third Opinion regarding the link added in this edit, over which an edit war has occurred. I'm not involved in the war, but the participants could use some knowledgeable guidance (and I'm not an expert on EL's). The primary discussion is on that article's talk page and on the proposing editor's talk page here. I will notify the participants, John Torn, Dia^, and Materialscientist of this discussion. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:47, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    Ephesus External Link

    Hi, I added an external link to the [Ephesus[1] page, which was to Historvius.com. The link was intended to help people find practical information on Epheses and was a link to this page. Another Wiki user felt it may be in contravention of the guidelines about links to sites with user-generated content: items 10, 11 and 12 [[2]]. I work for Historvius and the site, although one which accepts user contributions, is professionally edited and checked for accuracy. I asked for further guidance from the user [|Old Moonraker[3]] and they suggested I come here to seek further clarification. However, I do not want to break any rules so am happy to get the guidance of this forum. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.222.20.61 (talk) 11:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    In the light of the above, may I add WP:COI? To assist: the diff is here—the link above didn't work for me. --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sold on the link. Practical information is a Good Thing™, but it's not a Wikipedia Thing™. We're usually looking for encyclopedia-style information for external links rather than advice for tourists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    External links with JavaScript

    A site [4] recently linked to in D. H. Lawrence executes a JavaScript which surreptitiously attempts to connect the user's computer to PayPal over an encrypted channel. This connection attempt would be undetected by a normal user; I only found it because Little Snitch gave a message that an attempt was made to link my computer to www.paypal.com through TPC port 443 https, a request I naturally denied. I removed the link but another editor restored it. My view is that links should not be made to untrusted sources that use JavaScript in order to safeguard users of Wikipedia. The danger of allowing such sources to execute instructions on one's own computer is only too obvious.[5] A link that exists simply to provide information has no need to use JavaScript. What do editors think? The link also asked for money, and the reverting editor said that was O.K. because Wikipedia does also. However Wikipedia is a trusted source and this one is not. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:15, 9 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]

    The html source for the page of the link does contain some script related to paypal.com (I didn't take the time to work out exactly what it does). However, given the report above there would need to be a very good reason to include the link, and no such reason seems to exist (other than that the site would like donations, so linking at Wikipedia would be good for them). I had a quick look at the linked page, and it does not contain any useful information on the subject of the article, which is another reason to remove it. Johnuniq (talk) 02:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    The case for deleting the link is clear. The reason why I had to bring this matter here in the first place is that I am being followed around by a stalker who reverts my edits. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC).[reply]
    hi, the reason I didn't understand your revert is that you didn't mention a rogue javascript in your revert comment Bhny (talk) 00:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Xxanthippe, would you please send this information over to the WP:BLACKLIST folks, just to be on the safe side? They know a lot more about sneaky scripts than I do. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    Nazis: The Occult Conspiracy

    There's a link to watch the film that is likely a violation of WP:ELNEVER but it's at http://www.occultconspiracy.com/ so I'm not sure if that is the 'official' site or a fansite. -- Ϫ 13:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    For possible copyright violations we need pretty objective proof that something is not a violation to keep it. The documentary is by Discovery, the website's domain name has private registration so it cannot be checked. Typically genuine organizations have traceable whois records. This looks like someone profiting by showing ads to see a ripped off film. The site appears to e affiliated with http://www.fringemedia.org/ which uses a legally laughable fair use claim for stealing videos. DreamGuy (talk) 17:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm with DreamGuy: remove now, and edit warring should be followed by WP:BLACKLISTing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    Alison Redford

    Is my interpretation of the external links guideline correct, in that news interviews should not be listed in an external links section of a bio, as seen at Alison Redford#Videos? The discussion on the talk page has only been between myself and the user who would like to include the links, except for one IP (who I believe is a sockpuppet of the user trying to appear as several people), no one else has entered the conversation, helping out either side. 117Avenue (talk) 22:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    Interviews are listed as a permissible item at WP:ELYES #3. Videos are listed as something to worry about at WP:ELMAYBE #2.
    The guideline seems to have lost its advice against subdividing the EL section with level 3 headers like ===Videos===.
    The IP traces to cbc.ca, one of the two videos being disputed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:External_links/Noticeboard&oldid=454955853"