Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan

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Okinawa taskforce?

I've toyed with this idea for a while, but given the recent scuffle with China and editwarring on related pages, I think a focus group is needed. Anyone?--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 17:35, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't know that there are enough articles to support a task force. Will you make a list of articles here which would be covered by the task force? ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 19:58, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

For starters, everything in Category:Okinawa Prefecture and Category:Ryukyu Islands --Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:56, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I think a WP:WikiProject Ryukyu would be useful, which would also cover Okinwawa (present day), considering the language issues, romanization issues, historically, the separate Kingdom, etc.

There's also an attempt to create WP:WikiProject East Asia, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/East Asia -- to help with scuffles between East Asian countries on various topics...

76.66.200.95 (talk) 05:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:WikiProject East Asia has now been started. If you'd like you can suggest a task force there for Ryu Kyu. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 05:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

How many people are wanting to work on this task force? I think at least 4-5 people working on it would be good in order to keep momentum going. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, let's make a list!

1. --Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
2. Jpatokal (talk) 12:04, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd ask people interested in things Okinawan to pop over to MOS:JP and give your opinion on how the language should be romanized on Wikipedia, there's a <cough> lively discussion on the Talk page. Jpatokal (talk) 12:04, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

categorization of gaijin

This question of mine may be of interest to one or two people here. -- Hoary (talk) 13:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Japan-Korea Treaty of 1905

There is an archived discussion thread about changing the name of Eulsa Treaty to another name.

Summarizing the so-called discussion which began at Talk:Eulsa Treaty in early August here:

A. In an attempt to help us start discussion, options were proposed here and refined here.

1. Leave it at its current name?
2. To Japan-Korea Protectorate Treaty?
3. To Japan-Korea Treaty of 1905?
4. To 1905 Protectorate Treaty?
5. Or what?; see the second paragraph of page Eulsa Treaty.

B. Valentim presented the results of a Lexis/Nexis search here. This supplements several Google searches.

In the many weeks of so-called discussion thread development, those opposing the move have either been unwilling or unable to present refutation or counterargument; and therefore, I propose we delay no longer.

In other words, I suggest that there is a consensus to act now on the basis of the Lexis-Nexis search outcome. The time has come for this article to be renamed Japan-Korea Treaty of 1905. If not, why not? --Tenmei (talk) 19:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there an academic consensus on the name? The Japanese name includes the word 協約 (convention), less formal than 条約 (treaty). I think both Japan and Korea should be in the title. Also, do we have an English article of the first convention ja:第一次日韓協約? --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 04:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

We don't have the 第一次日韓協約 article. We only have Japan–Korea Treaty of 1904 (日韓議定書), Eulsa Treaty (第二次日韓協約), and Japan–Korea Treaty of 1907 (第三次日韓協約). Oda Mari (talk) 06:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Gojong's analysis of what is identified as the "treaty of 1905" -- see translation here.

Responding to Shinkansen Fan and to Oda Mari:

A. For clarity, the first two sentences of our Treaty article explain:

"A treaty is an agreement under international law entered into by actors in international law, namely sovereign states and international organizations. A treaty may also be known as:

• international agreement ... [as in International Agreement on the Conservation of Polar Bears .],
• Protocol (treaty) ... [not the same as Protocol (diplomacy) ],
• covenant ... [as in International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights of 1976],
• convention ... [as in European Convention on Human Rights ],
• exchange of letters ... which is a redirect to Treaty ], etc.

Regardless of the terminology, all of these international agreements under international law are equally treaties and the rules are the same."

B. That said, another crucial point needs to be considered: The Emperor Gojong of the Korean Empire explicitly uses the word "treaty" in the English translation of his letter to the King of England. Even though the print is very small, you can read this much of it for yourself. See here.

C. The fundamental invalidity of the document was asserted by Koreans in 1905, in 1907, in 1910, in 2010 and in all the intervening years as well. In other words, there is an historical chronology which identifies this so-called "treaty" as a "non-treaty". Although one or more specific sources can be cited which identifies this as a "convention" or as a "protocol," it does not help resolve our wiki-naming dilemma. Rather, fiddling with the word "treaty" only adds a further layer of conflated issues which are better addressed in the article itself.

Does this help by enhancing focus? --Tenmei (talk) 20:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for explanation. I noticed that 第一次日韓協約 was signed in 1904 too. In order to avoid confusion, I suggest the following names:

日韓議定書 Japan-Korea Treaty of 1904 -> Japan-Korea Convention of 1904

第一次日韓協約 (no English article) -> Japan-Korea First Treaty of 1904

第二次日韓協約 Eulsa Treaty -> Japan-Korea Second Treaty of 1905

第三次日韓協約 Japan-Korea Treaty of 1907 -> Japan-Korea Third Treaty of 1907 --Shinkansen Fan 11:40, 1 November 2010

Shinkansen Fan is correct.

Korean Wikipedia	English Wikipedia	Japanese Wikipedia
ko:한일의정서	Japan-Korea Treaty of 1904	ja:日韓議定書	See Korean Mission to the Conference on the Limitation of Armament, Washington, D.C., 1921-1922. (1922). Korea's Appeal, p. 34., p. 34, at Google Books; excerpt, "Treaty of Alliance Between Japan and Korea, dated February 23, 1904."
ko:제1차 한일 협약	Japan-Korea Protocol of August 1904	ja:第一次日韓協約	See Korean Mission, p. 35., p. 35, at Google Books; excerpt, "Alleged Treaty, dated August 22, 1904."
	Japan-Korea Protocol of April 1905		See Korean Mission, p. 35., p. 35, at Google Books; excerpt, "Alleged Treaty, dated April 1, 1905."
	Japan-Korea Protocol of August 1905		See Korean Mission, p. 35., p. 35, at Google Books; excerpt, "Alleged Treaty, dated August 13, 1905."
ko:제2차 한일 협약	Japan-Korea Treaty of 1905	ja:第二次日韓協約	ko:을사조약 (en:Eulsa Treaty)
제3차 한일 협약	Japan-Korea Treaty of 1907	第三次日韓協約	See Korean Mission, p. 35., p. 35, at Google Books; excerpt, "Alleged Treaty, dated July 24, 1907."

This is outside the scope of this thread, but I was simply wrong.

Shinkansen Fan identifies a noteworthy problem in related articles. --Tenmei (talk) 20:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I didn't know of the protocols (treaties?) signed in April and August 1905, and neither is covered on Japanese or Korean Wikipedia. I still think it's better to use the word "Convetion" rather than "Treaty" for the first 議定書, Protocol or Treaty? I'm confused.

Kana to Hepburn automatic translator?

I found Romaji.org, which translates kana to romaji, but not the kind we use in Wikipedia. Is there a free online translation device that will romanise kana appropriately? --Malkinann (talk) 22:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean exactly, not the kind we use? TomorrowTime (talk) 20:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

For example, it converts ルール to "ru^ru". Presumably it means rûru, but our Romanization would say to write it as rūru. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 20:35, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

齋藤 vs. 斉藤 (Saitō vs. Saitō)

I wonder if some other editors can have a look at the Hiro Mizushima article. The subject of this article has recently been in the news following a literary award win which also made his real name (Tomohiro Saitō) public. All the official Japanese news sources I have seen write this as "齋藤", but another editor insists that the article should also include the alternative "斉藤" because this (mis?)spelling has been used on a number of other sites in the past. The problem with this is that none of these sources appears to be reliable, and they were published before his birth name was made officially public. --DAJF (talk) 02:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

If they aren't reliable sources, then they shouldn't be included, especially since his actually name has been widely published in reliable sources. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Shōko Hamada

The article on actress Shōko Hamada has been tagged as an unreferenced BLP since December 2008, which is the current focus month for the BLP Rescue Project. I have tried, and failed, to find any reliable sources for this article. Even looking at the Japanese Wikipedia article with the aid of Google translate only seems to bring up promotional sites (as far as I can tell). I am posting here in the hope that a Japanese speaker could find at least one reliable source and make a decision about the subject's notability.--Plad2 (talk) 21:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Source of Japanese academic papers

Apparently, this website provides access to papers written, in both Japanese and English, by Japanese academics. FYI as possible sources for articles. Cla68 (talk) 00:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks for finding that. :) ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Heian-kyō is an embarrassment!

Hi there. I was just going through the historical capitals of East Asia and flagging them with the WPEASTASIA template (the WikiProject East Asia assessment template) when I stumbled upon the article Heian-kyō. For a capital city, the fact that this only has one source, is at stub/start length, and half of the content is the technical specification of the city walls, is... well... an embarassment. Either this should be merged with Kyoto, or expanded dramatically. Since I only count three contributors in the past year that have edited it more that once, and since there isn't a Japan WikiProject tag on the page, there is the possibility that none of you knew about this, so I'm posting this here and hoping that the experts can clear this up.

I'm sorry to be so blunt about this, I was just really, really surprised at what I saw.

By the way, WP:WikiProject East Asia was just founded, about a week ago, and is recruiting members. The scope of the project is mid level (broader than "Japan" but narrower than "Asia"), and aims to serve as an eventual hub for coordination among various more specific Wikiprojects, and to improve articles related to issues, entities, and events that cross national boundaries and have a regional impact on East Asia. If that definition seems a tad ambiguous, it's because we're still so new that we're defining ourselves, and it's 1:30 AM where I am. Please stop by and join or weigh in if it interests you. Sven Manguard _Talk 05:38, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Probably the best idea is to merge the contents into Kyoto, as you say. For a thousand-year-old city, Kyoto currently has a very short history section. — Gavia immer (talk) 06:38, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

To me it does not seem that stubbish, though it could definitely be expanded. Merging the full article including the map into Kyoto would bloat it too much in my opinion. Also Heian-kyō is very important in (art) history of Japan and does deserve its own article. bamse (talk) 09:55, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The article itself is based on a single source and deals heavily with the technical layout and specifications of the city. You could easily take the small amount of history and move it over to Kyoto, then rename Heian-kyō something else, such as "City Planning of Heian-kyō" or "City Planning of Kyoto." Whatever is decided, having one source just isn't right. I can help with access to sources, I have access to a JSTOR subscription, but I simply don't have the time to write this right now. Sven Manguard _Talk 15:07, 5 November 2010 (UTC) P.S. This page isn't watch listed, and I will only check it occasionally. If you need me, leave me a message at my talk page.

What about creating an article called like, History of Kyoto or something like that? There is some precedent for this sort of article (e.g. History of New York City, History of Chicago). Then just use a {{main}} in the Kyoto article and have it have a brief synopsis of the city's history, and then put all the main text in the history article. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Works for me, but it's not my decision. I'm just concerned about the end product, whatever that turns out to be, being of as high a quality as possible. Sven Manguard _Talk 15:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I like that idea. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 15:47, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Me, too. History of Kyoto is in line with History of Rome and History of London (which are much better comparisons to Heian-kyo than Chicago or New York). DaAnHo (talk) 18:07, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

We have ja:京都 to cover History of Kyoto before the establishment of the Meiji government and the city of Kyoto as we know it. Yes, this article is an embarrassment. Sorry, my translation is incomplete because I have recently shifted my focus to energy and economy. I'll be back to this topic when time allows. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 08:16, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Japan-related articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release

Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Japan-related articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (♦) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Sunday, November 14th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of November, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

If you have already provided feedback, we deeply appreciate it. For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 16:33, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Collaboration

A thread in WikiProject East Asia, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject East Asia#Future of article Joseon missions to Japan, may be of interest to the members of this WikiProject.

Also of note, Wikipedia:WikiProject East Asia/to do is up, and one of our current objectives is within the scope of this WikiProject.

Please feel free to comment on or work on either of these issues, and feel free to join WikiProject East Asia if it interests you.

Regards, Sven Manguard _Talk 04:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject cleanup listing

I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 21:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Japanese-related request at ANI

Here. Cla68 (talk) 00:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Japanese Americans (miniseries)

Found and tagged, please help clean up!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 19:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Currency template

1. There is a discussion on renaming the ¥ template at Template talk:¥. Interested parties may wish to join the discussion.
2. No matter what the outcome is, should the final name of the template be added to Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan#Templates?
3. Lastly, what should the output of this template be? Currently it produces ¥100 but can potentially be confused with the Chinese Yuan (both ¥ and 元 are commonly used in China). Thank you.  Stepho  (talk) 05:14, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

"¥" has been internationally recognized for decades as the Japanese Yen symbol, so how it's used inside China is pretty much irrelevant. It should probably be added to Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Business and economy task force rather than the main WPJ page. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 06:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. The ¥ symbol is used in both People's Republic of China and Renminbi articles. I have also personally come across it many times when I lived in China. If it causes confusion to readers (Chinese in this case) then it is very relevant. Similar to how '$' is used in the US, Canada, Australia, Taiwan and many other countries, the currency symbol requires disambiguation (eg USD, CAD, AUD, TWD or US$,CA$, AU$, TW$).  Stepho  (talk) 07:56, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

That would be why the template links to Japanese yen. No further disambiguation is needed beyond that. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 15:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the link would disambiguate it (for a little more effort by the reader). But the {{USD}} template was criticised for over linking, so we put in a flag to make the link optional (typically enabled on the first use and disable for further usage). I've been thinking of putting this link flag on all the currency templates. This would fix over linking but would reintroduce ambiguity.  Stepho  (talk) 02:49, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Please help with FLC

Resolved

List of National Treasures of Japan (ancient documents) is currently a featured list candidate. It has so far received 3 support (and 0 oppose) votes. It needs a last look from someone before it can be promoted. I'd be very happy if somebody could have a look at it and leave comments, questions, suggestions and/or a vote ("support" or "oppose") on the nomination page. Otherwise it is in danger of failing. Thank you. bamse (talk) 19:56, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Video games Industry in Japan help

I have need help with Video gaming in Japan I know there is more information out there if you can help to help to improve the article it would be appreciated. Dwanyewest (talk) 01:17, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

IJN Yasoshima

FYI Yasoshima has been requested to be renamed, and that Chinese cruiser Ping Hai be merged with it; see Talk:Yasoshima#Move? and Talk:Chinese cruiser Ping Hai ... 76.66.203.138 (talk) 06:00, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Evacuation of Karafuto and Kuriles

This article needs a bit of help with the cleanup. I've added one source, though I'm sure there are others to be found), and I've done a quick-and-dirty combining of the two POV section which now make up the Timeline section. If there are others who would be willing to help with putting a bit more polish on this one, I'd appreciate it. This is an area of history I'm not as familiar with, so I'm just groping around in the dark. Thanks! ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 03:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

PRC-Japan relations

I request a rewrite of People's_Republic_of_China_–_Japan_relations. This article is far from neutral because Japanese views of the PRC, and more specifically, policy of the ruling CCP, are not explained. Also, pre-modern history is poorly written, compared to ja: 日中関係史. Readers wouldn't be able to understand the complexity of the bilateral relations. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 11:47, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome to take a stab at it if you wish. As you said, it's a very complex subject. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 16:42, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

In particular, I really have a problem with the PRC's "angry" response to the Japan-US joint statement on the peaceful resolution of the status of Taiwan. This implies that a non-peaceful resolution is good and the Japan-US stance is somehow problematic, Nobody in Taiwan, Japan, or anywhere else but China wants that. It smacks of Sinocentrism. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 16:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Non-English characters in dab page, article page, redirect page names, up for RfC

See WT:Article titles#Non-Roman characters in redirects to articles, where an RfC has been opened on the use of non-English characters in page titles for disambiguation and redirect titles (and there appears to also be discussion about article titles) 76.66.203.138 (talk) 09:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Macronless names of Tokyo articles

Hi! I noticed something... In October Kōtō, Tokyo was moved to Koto, Tokyo - An admin said that "Requested at Wikipedia:Requested moves as uncontroversial" - The move request was posted here Bunkyo was moved too

Other Tokyo wards have macronned titles, like Ōta, Tokyo WhisperToMe (talk) 12:02, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

RfC on Senkaku Islands

An RfC has been opened regarding the title of the Senkaku Islands and Senkaku Islands dispute pages. The discussion can be found at Talk:Senkaku Islands#What should the title of this article be?. As this page is of interest to this project, we invite your comments. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Translation Help

Hello, I'm currently working on the article for the Japanese video game Another Code: Two Memories. However, there is an interview with the game's developers in Japanese that would undoubtedly improve the article, but which I cannot translate. The interview can be found here. I would be grateful if anyone could translate it. Thanks in advance, 72.69.112.222 (talk) 20:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Go to translate.google.com, select the languages and type in the web address or cut and paste some Japanese text. It gives the following rough translation...

http://translate.google.com.au/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nintendo.co.jp%2Fnom%2F0503%2F12%2Findex.html

 Stepho  (talk) 21:51, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your response, but I'm not sure if I could understand that translation enough to learn something from it. Unfortunately, all the automatic translators I've tried have been extremely difficult to decipher. I think this interview will have to be translated manually to make sense, although I understand how much trouble it will be for whoever takes on this request. 72.69.112.222 (talk) 00:04, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I guess I've been reading Japlish and Chinglish for so long that I don't notice the oddball grammar anymore :) Translating by hand is way beyond my beginner capabilities but read through the machine translation carefully and you'd be suprised how much you can figure out. Put difficult passages through different machine translators and you'll get a few variations that can make things clearer. I like using the translator at http://www.excite.co.jp/world/ for this. Paste the Japanese text into the text box, select the second item in the drop down box (Japanese -> English) and press the big button in the middle.  Stepho  (talk) 07:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I will give automatic translators another try. I've already discovered something new from the interview using that translator you linked. Thanks for your help on this. 72.69.112.222 (talk) 22:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Tōru Takemitsu → Toru Takemitsu?

The discussion is going on at here. Please participate the discussion. Oda Mari (talk) 09:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Table formatting in List of mountains and hills of Japan by Height

Hi!

I wanted to have a brief discussion on Talk:List of mountains and hills of Japan by height. User:Alpsdake has been making some improvements and I want a sanity check to see if I am the only one, who has problems with the changes. Plus, someone who is a table expert might be useful. Thanks!

-imars (talk) 08:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Japan's top 3

I think an article like this wikitravel page could be of interest for en-wikipedia as well. What do you think? Question is, are there any reliable sources for such lists or are there multiple definitions/versions for them? I'd also be interested to read a well-sourced article on Japanese fascination for top N lists. Anyone up for it? bamse (talk) 22:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

We have lists of the top 3, 4, and 5 ja:日本三大一覧 ja:日本四大一覧 and ja:日本五大一覧 and also ja:Category:名数 up to 100. We have some sources --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 06:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Populations in the Infobox of Japanese diaspora

A discussion is posted at Template talk:Japanese ethnicity#Regions with significant populations. Please participate in the discussion. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 04:31, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Japanese Sign Language

In the article about Japanese Sign Language, one image is proposed for deletion here. This is the only image of someone actively using JSL.

File:Princess Akishino JSL.jpg is an unconventional image which shows the princess signing at high school sign language speech contest. As you may not know, this member of the Imperial family has studied JSL and interpreting for Japanese deaf. IMO, this image should not be deleted. I don't know how to distinguish between the fact that Princess Kiko signs and the fact that someone took a photograph of her signing. In either case, this image illustrates a small change in the context established by Juno Saruhashi and Yuko Takeshita. "Ten Linguistic Issues in Japan: The Impact of Globalization," Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development.

I don't understand the complaint. I can't figure out how to respond to explicit criticism that there needs to be "analytical commentary on the picture"? --Tenmei (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Y The image of Princess Akishino was removed because a careful examination of the fair use rationale revealed critical flaws which could not be resolved. The discussion thread about deleting this file is archived at Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2010 December 4#File:Princess Akishino JSL.jpg. --Tenmei (talk) 16:26, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Film box office info in Japan

This might be useful: Box Office Mojo: Japan. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 06:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Anyone wish to help here?

If there is someone with better Japanese arguing skills than me, can you go convince the people here that the GFDL allows what they are saying it doesn't? I appreciate any help. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 16:01, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Kanji help

The article Takahide Aioi needs his kanji name added. Also, there should be an article to link to in the JA wikipedia as he was chief of the Maritime Self Defense Force after the war. Thanks in advance. Cla68 (talk) 11:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I added kanji but couldn't find good reference. There is no corresponding Japanese article but found cs:Takahide Aioi. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:12, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks much. Cla68 (talk) 11:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Japanese calendar

Hello! Is there a preferred way or even a template to write old (pre 1873) Japanese dates ("3rd month of 1823" for instance). bamse (talk) 01:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

This subject was discussed in September 2008 here; and since this time, I have been slowly converting the dates in the Japanese era name articles. At the time, I construed this to be the basis of a style-setting agreement, but that may have been been a mistake.

As far as I am concerned, the preferred format is:

Gregorian calendar date followed by Japanese era name in parenthesis and italicized.

As I understand it, the preferred format for the nengō is:

nengō + [cardinal number (year)] + comma + [ordinal number and the word "day"] of the [ordinal number and the word "month"]

Example:

• December 16, 1707 (Hōei 4, 23nd day of the 11th month)<:!--NengoCalc 宝永四年十一月二十三日 -->: An eruption of Mt. Fuji; the cinders and ash fell like rain in Izu, Kai, Sagami, and Musashi.
• 1708 (Hōei 5): The shogunate introduces new copper coins into circulation; and each coin is marked with the Hōei nengō name (Hōei Tsubo).
• April 28, 1708 (Hōei 5, 8th day of the 3rd month)<:!-- NengoCalc 宝永三年三月八日 -->: There was a great fire in Kyoto.

As in the example above, I usually create a hyperlink for the first reference to a specific nengō. When the Gregorian-month+day+year or Nengō-year+day+month is provided by the cited source, I conventionally provide a NengoCalc conversion for the missing mirror-date. As in the example above, I usually verify the conversion by posting hidden text with NengoCalc + the written date from the conversion template.

My opinion represents no definitive answer to this inquiry, but it does become a small step in a process of establishing an explicit Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) format. --Tenmei (talk) 03:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

TV Tokyo

Hi,

I would like inputs for more knowledgeable editors on whatever TV show broadcasted on TV Tokyo and by extension TXN would pass Wikipedia:OUTCOMES#Broadcast_media.

Full disclosure the question was raised in the on-going The Flying House AfD.

Thanks. --KrebMarkt (talk) 08:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Coordinates of One Hundred Famous Views of Edo

I am looking for the geo-coordinates of One Hundred Famous Views of Edo in KML/KMZ or any other format. Surely somebody must have put together those on the internet somewhere but I can't find it. Hope that somebody from the project could help. It would be used for the table in the One Hundred Famous Views of Edo article. bamse (talk) 11:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

ja:名所江戸百景 has links in the image caption. Some are approximate and some are exact place links where you can have the geo-coordinate. Great bridge is ja:新大橋 , Kinryūzan Temple is Sensō-ji , more precisely the gate is Kaminarimon or ja:雷門 has the geo-coordinate, and etc. Oda Mari Oda Mari (talk) 14:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I had hoped for a single list of coordinates which could be automagically translated into wikipedia's format. Seems that I will have to get them one by one. Also I had hoped to find (somewhat precise) coordinates for less well known places, such as this street in Kasumigaseki. bamse (talk) 16:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Although it's a blog and I'm not sure if the blog has the all places, I found something you wanted. This is the Kasumigaseki Street page and this is its linked page. Oda Mari (talk) 17:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Excellent! Thanks a lot. That's what I was looking for. They seem to have all the places and coordinates of the viewpoint + viewing direction (rather than just the coordinates of the main subject of the print). bamse (talk) 17:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

FAR

I have nominated Japan for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Dana boomer (talk) 18:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Map of Edo period Edo (Tokyo)

Does anybody know of an online map of Edo period Tokyo (Edo)? It would be very good if the map allowed to compare locations in the past with present locations. Ideally the map should be from around 1856 to 1858 (for use in this article) or so. bamse (talk) 20:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

How about this page? This is the list of the maps. And I found this too. Other pages of the map shop are these. [1] and [2]. As for Nagatacho, see this. Though it's a 1859-60 map, you can see 16 pdf maps at here. Click the map on the page. Oda Mari (talk) 07:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

In case you have Google Earth installed, you can also use the overlay from the David Rumsey Map Collection [3] (They are included in the standard installation in Layers/Gallery/Rumsey Historical Maps or accessible online on the website). They have maps (all called "Tokyo") of 1680, 1799, 1858 and 1892. Just tried it, they seem to be useful for finding approximate present-day locations of historical places. --Asakura Akira (talk) 12:54, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Perfect! Thanks a lot. bamse (talk) 14:19, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Calligraphy reading challenge

There are at least two ways of ordering the prints of the One Hundred Famous Views of Edo by Hiroshige:

1. Used here and at commons
2. Used here and here and at One Hundred Famous Views of Edo (the latter per Taschen book)

I am trying to find out which of the two orderings matches that in the table of contents. In the toc, the two boxes at the top correspond to spring (no. 1-42), the fan-shaped box to summer (no. 43-72), bottom right box to autumn (no. 73-98) and the bottom left box to winter (99-118 or 119). Differences between the two orderings occur for instance for no 69, 70, 71 (should be close to the left/bottom border of the fan-shaped part) or no. 45 (3rd entry in the fan-shaped part). It would be great if somebody could match the toc to either of the two orderings. bamse (talk) 22:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I think Commons' ordering is the correct one. Oda Mari (talk) 08:05, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Could it be that the difference is due to the fact that the titles in the toc are arranged (roughly) in two ("horizontal") lines and that one source reads them line by line (first top line then bottom line) and the other source alternates between lines (first title on top line->first title on bottom line -> second title on top line -> ...)? If that is the case, which reading corresponds to which source? bamse (talk) 10:57, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Replying to my own question. Indeed only the order of summer prints differs between "1" and "2". The difference is due to different reading of the titles in the fan-shaped part (=summer): "1" results from reading line by line (first top then bottom line) while "2" from reading alternatingly between top and bottom line. Spring, autumn and winter titles of the series are ordered line-by line for both "1" and "2" which would favour "1" as the correct (original) order for the summer prints. On the other hand, as far as I can see, the order of "1" is used in (old) early 20th century books, while "2" is used in more recent publications. bamse (talk) 15:07, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be three numbering systems: Tokyo University of the Arts Number (東京藝大番号), Minoru Harashida Number (原信田実番号) and Picture Number (絵番号). See this website. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 21:28, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

The former two numbering systems are based on the chronological order determined by the censor seals.[4] I am sorry this doesn’t respond to your question. However what we can say from these evidences is there are many numbering systems and none of which is a "legitimate" or "right" one. So I think it is enough to put a note which numbering system is used for the article. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 23:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for checking it out. Indeed, by order I meant the non-chronological order as given by the table of contents. The "Picture Number (絵番号)" in [5] matches that of the more recent sources ("2"). As I wrote, so far I haven't seen a recent source that uses the ordering "1". But probably you are right, and the order of the prints is not that important. After all the toc was not designed by Hiroshige. I'll add a note when I expand/rewrite the intro of One Hundred Famous Views of Edo. bamse (talk) 01:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The difference is the way of reading in the fan-shaped part. But the #2 reading seems to be illogical to me. As a native speaker, it is more natural to read Yoroino watashi/鎧のわたし, Suidobashi/水道橋, Shouheibashi/昌平ばし if you should read the list by ordinary vertical reading. But in the #2 list, the order is Yoroi, Shohei, Suidobashi. In vertical reading, we don't read line/s as く, but like リ. That's why I thought the #1 reading was correct and it's the same way of reading as other lists. I agree with Phoenix7777 and bamese that the ordering is not important and there would be no problem by adding a note to the article. Oda Mari (talk) 07:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Just for your information: The reasoning for "2" ordering per Taschen book is the following. The titles in the fan-shaped part are organized in groups of three. Each of these triple groups starts with a title (writen with strong characters at the top), to the left of it is the second title in the group and somewhat below the third title. This style of writing is also called chirashigaki (scattered writing). bamse (talk) 21:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I see. Thank you for the information. I'm ashamed of my ignorance. Oda Mari (talk) 05:43, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

No need to be ashamed. After reading a bit, I still don't understand the rules of this style. Apparently the way to read it is connected to the strength of characters but that's all I understood. BTW, in another source (not related to ukiyoe or Hiroshige) it said that chirashigaki was typically used for poetry and for writings on fans. bamse (talk) 08:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

File:Shisa face.svg

Please help save this image-it may not fit on Commons, but it is okay here.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

It was tagged with an invalid speedy delete tag, which I have removed. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 17:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Is that file still under fire? I thought the deletion debate ended about a half a year ago... TomorrowTime (talk) 19:28, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Apparently. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It ended at Commons, the deletionist wants to keep making it an issue everywhere.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 23:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Anyone want to come up with a good description for it? It has no description right now. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:19, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Re-assessment Question

Hi, I've done some work on an article or two, and I think they should be re-assessed, and possibly upgraded in quality evaluation. Where do I request an article to be re-assessed? Boneyard90 (talk) 04:31, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

You can do it here or at Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Assessment#Requests for assessment (which reminds me, I need to go clean that up). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:21, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

New template

I just created {{Japan current era date}} for use in a few places, and I thought I'd mention it here in case anyone else needs to use it. It can be used a couple different ways, so please read the documentation so you'll be aware of them. Enjoy! ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 02:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

That is way cool, thank you!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

List of Japanese clothing

This is in really poor shape-it's not a list as claimed, nor is it an article. What should be done?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:30, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I moved it to Japanese clothing as it is not a list. If it ever becomes a list, it can be moved back. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 08:22, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Gosei

Is there a better way to handle the disambiguation?

• * Gosei (game)? Gosei (competition)? -- moved per suggestion below
• Gosei (fifth-generation Nikkei)? Compare Yonsei (fourth-generation Nikkei)?
• Gosei (meditation)?

Also, WP:Use English causes me to worry that Gosei (meditation) might not be optimal? Is this one of those rare cases in which non-English is better? --Tenmei (talk) 20:54, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Seems like no single one of the articles mentioned on the disambig page is preferable to the term, so I'd leave it as is. Maybe change Gosei (game) to Gosei (competition) or something? I'm not convinced the meditation one is notable enough to have its own article; perhaps it should be merged into a naval academy article.

Side question - do we really need articles for each nikkei generation? Like, are we eventually going to have a 十四世 or something higher? Seems like it could just be rolled into the Nikkei article. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 23:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Annyong -- A different question is this: Do the parsed Nikkei articles precede or follow real world trends?

Reliable sources seem to support the counterintuitive relevance of articles about Yonsei and Gosei, despite assimilation and acculturation. In other words, when published sources propel article growth, we are moving in the right direction, e.g.,

• tertiary sources report more than one demographic study which tracks the fifth-generation Nipo-Brasileiros of Brazil and the Peruano-Japonés of Peru
• published acknowledgment of the Gosei demographic in a Nikkei context

Our good judgment is the product of a number of factors. --Tenmei (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Assistance with translation, please

An editor has used http://dspace.lib.kanazawa-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2297/17987/1/dayori17.pdf as a reference in E E Speight for a a marriage and child. Pages 6-7 are the relevant pages. I can see enough in English in the illustrations to recognise that this is likely to be about E E Speight, but cannot read Japanese at all.

Might someone be able to translate the relevant section for me, perhaps placing the translation in the article's talk page? WIthout such a translation the article's accuracy is in doubt. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I just skimmed through the thing, but there doesn't seem to be a "personal life" section, just sections on his history as educator and a description of some of the books he wrote. Besides, "Hide" is a male name... TomorrowTime (talk) 16:29, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

It's an inappropriate edit. There's no mention about Speight's marriages at all on the linked pages. So I reverted the editor's edit. I found something interesting. The reviewer seems to be the editor. Oda Mari (talk) 18:32, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm grateful. Sometimes something can look valid and be wholly invalid. None of the machine translators I tried would even attempt the pdf, so I'm glad I thought of asking here. Thank you both for your help. If you have any further time I'd appreciate a translation on a personal basis since I have an off wikipedia interest in the gentleman's history. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:42, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Lists of dramas.

• 2005 Japanese television dramas
• 2006 Japanese television dramas
• 2007 Japanese television dramas

All three of these pages (well half of the 2005 one) have the names of people in Surname Given Name order. This should be fixed ASAP.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:41, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

File:E-tripartite-pact.jpg

This image is up for deletion, it seems like hogwash to delete the only photo found of this historic event.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:32, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

「毒花」

Tokiwa Toyoko Toyoko Tokiwa is the writer/photographer of a moderately famous book titled 『危険な毒花』. I suppose that the title really is that set of graphemes (which people are free to pronounce as they wish) and not some set of phonemes; however, we have to use rōmaji here in en:WP and I am forced to choose.

I'm lucky enough to possess a copy of my own (though mine lacks the obi). I can't see any "ruby" anywhere within it.

Google shows that 「毒花」 is not rare. Various ghits hint that the pronunciation is more likely to be ドクバナ rather than anything else. It's not in any 漢和 dictionary that I have here (I seem to have mislaid "Nelson"), and none of ドクカ, ドッカ, ドクハナ, or ドクバナ is in either of two large 国語 dictionaries that I have.

Tucker et al's large and wonderful book The History of Japanese Photography refers to the book as Kiken na adabana, in at least two places, by different authors. However, I find this very implausible: if she'd wanted adabana, surely she'd have written 徒花; and adabana aren't necessarily toxic and aren't thought of as toxic.

Comments? -- Hoary (talk) 15:31, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to be a smartass, but are you sure the pronunciation is not in the book? As far as I can remember, all Japanese books have a furigana-tsuki reading of the title and author on the last page (then again, almost all of my books are softcover novels, so this may be different...). As for the pronunciation - I didn't find the kanji cluster in any of my dictionaries, either, but my first intuitive pronunciation (right when I saw the kanji in the edit summary in my watchlist) was "dokuhana". Thinking a bit more about it, the "dokubana" pronunciation could be from Kansai - similar to how in Kanto they will pronounce 茨城 as "Ibaraki", where as in Kansai "Ibaragi" is the almost universal pronunciation of those kanji. Or I could be pulling all of this out of my ass... Take note, I'm not trying to assert any sort of expertise here :) TomorrowTime (talk) 16:27, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm hoping that Oda Mari shows up and schools us all in how to read that. My guess is dokka, but we'll see. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I just asked on IRC. Correct answer: キケン ナ ドクカ. You can verify it yourself by going to the metro library link and searching for the title of the book. You get one listing, and if you search down the page for the name of the book, you'll see the reading. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 17:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Here I am. It's dokubana. See [6] and [7]. The out-of-print book is so expensive! See [8] and [9]. Oda Mari (talk) 17:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Hmm...But NDL says dokubana too. Click "全項目を表示" on the right bottom, if you cannot see the title in katakana. Hoary, do you want me to ask Mikasa Shobo? Oda Mari (talk) 18:13, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I think enough sources state that it's dokubana that I'd be willing to go with that. Oh well. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

According to OCLC, 4 universities in US hold the book. Tokiwa, Toyoko (1957). Kikenna dokubana (in Japanese). Tōkyō: Mikasa Shobō. OCLC 33621267. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |trans_title= (help)--Jjok (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

How pleasant to wake to such helpful responses. Thank you all.

TomorrowTime, of course I looked at the colophon. Yes, many Japanese books do indeed provide the reading of the kanji of the author(s) and title there; but many do not, and this is one of them. I know too little about the phonology of Japanese, but what little I do know suggests that nigori is commoner in Kantō than in Kansai, so that if told that dokuhana and dokubana were both used, one more in the one area and the other more in the other area, I'd link dokuhana with Kansai. (Mari may wish to correct me here.)

Annyong, yes, I saw that listing of キケン ナ ドクカ. I gave it very serious thought but it alone didn't convince me. (I'm more intrigued by what this publication is. I tentatively infer that it's a compilation of 縮小版; see my puzzled comment in Talk:Toyoko Tokiwa. I suppose I'll just have to toddle along to the library to take a look.)

Mari, I'd never heard of that Yahoo dictionary. A very useful discovery. I hadn't looked up the title at NDC, I'm ashamed to say. I don't think NDC used to give readings, and I'd forgotten that they now sometimes do. The prices for the book are indeed crazy, but that's photobook-collecting fetishism for you. I don't remember what I paid, but it was certainly under one quarter of the lower of those two prices. Mikasa Shobō wasn't a familiar name and I'd lazily assumed that it had long since disappeared. I'm glad to hear that it still exists. There's quite a market for reproductions of old Japanese photobooks -- Hosoe, Fukase, Nakahira, Suzuki (Kiyoshi) and Takanashi have all been so honored -- and perhaps Kiken na dokubana could get the same treatment (even though it's not what we think of these days as a photobook).

Well, a footnote within the article now waffles on for too long about Japanese dictionaries and so forth. I should trim this and at least mention that Kiken na dokuka is one other (right? wrong?) way in which the book has been referred to. But I'm hoping that Nihonjoe will first reconsider his well-intentioned edit to the article, now the latest.

Eventually I should also check the later books by Tokiwa, but copies aren't so easy to locate.

[Danger: Digression] The received idea is that female photographers burst on the scene with Hiromix and Nagashima (both inspired by Araki) and Ninagawa. Nonsense. Tucker goes some way to dispelling this myth, but not far enough. Now 96 years old and still taking photographs, Sasamoto was prominent as a photojournalist about a decade before Tokiwa's exhibition and book; would anyone here care to develop what's now a dreary substub about her? -- Hoary (talk) 02:38, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

PS [edit clash] Thank you, Jjok. I hadn't thought of looking outside Japan. (I'd been wondering what happened to all the copies: neither the Tokyo Metropolitan Library nor the library of the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography has one, even though the colophon of my own copy says that it's 第13版 [of course 13th impression, not edition] in the space of just five weeks, suggesting that a lot were churned out.) I'm interested to see "location= Tōkyō"; we in en:WP aren't supposed to alarm our nervous readers by such spellings. -- Hoary (talk) 02:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

PPSes on the JPEG:

1. The immediate prompt for my recent revision of the article was the realization that somebody had added an image to it. The image shows an obi which I thought I should link to, but "obi strip" turned out to be wretched and I therefore revised its extremes of grotesqueness and added this image. It's still horrible, but I don't have any reference work about Japanese packaging design.
2. Although a photo or scan of just about any old (or new) book can be used to illustrate obi, the combination of obi and dust jacket on this one copy of one book is I think of unusual visual interest for Japanese script reform. I hesitate to add it there, because the article already seems carefully done, but see my comment at Talk:Japanese script reform.

Hoary (talk) 03:28, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

FYI. According to the link Mari gave us, Yokohama City Central Library[10] holds three (and all?) of her books including her latest work in 2001 which is only found there (I am not sure the following links work for you).

• Yokohama saigen: Futari de utsushita haisen sutōrī
• Watashi no Naka no Yokohama Densetsu
• Kiken na Dokubana

This link[11] also displays Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography Library holds Kiken na Dokubana. Someone has stolen it?--Jjok (talk) 04:25, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

This is strange. I know I was sleepy last night; perhaps I accidentally typed in 常磐 rather than 常盤 or made some similar goof when I was working the OPACs. Yokohama's OPAC is impressive: using it, I'm able to derive "further reading" material (already plonked in the talk page). Thank you again, Jjok. -- Hoary (talk) 05:07, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Tomorrow Time and Hoary, that nigori in ja words is called rendaku. 覚えておきましょう。According to the ja WP, the difference of rendaku in Kanto and Kansai can be found in family names like Yamasaki in Kansai and Yamazaki in Kanto. I'm not sure, but I don't think this can be found in common nouns. "どくか/Dokuka" reading sounds impossible to me, it should be "どっか/dokka" like 作家/author is not さくか/sakuka, but さっか/sakka, I'm not a linguist though. Oda Mari (talk) 06:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I was generalizing carelessly. Yes, surely it's names: as another example, a tendency for Akahoshi in Kansai and Akaboshi in Kantō. As for dokuka versus dokka, I too was thinking of sakka and so forth but surprisingly live-in native informant was certain that dokka would be less likely than dokuka (though she also thought that even the latter was less likely than dokubana). The one thing she was certain of was that it wouldn't be adabana. Now read on..... Hoary (talk) 11:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Jjok (in effect) prompted me to visit the library of the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography today, and there I discovered pretty authoritative evidence that the intended reading was adabana. I'll explain the reading within the article soon, and as concisely as I can. ¶ Of course I could have found out all of this for myself, without bothering you, if I'd just gone to the library and read the stuff in the first place (or indeed if I had simply believed what a fine book by the first-rate Yale University Press had told its readers). So I wasted your time. Um, I shall repay my debt to society (or anyway you in WP) by creating a stub on a publisher (and not a Japanese publisher, in order to avoid more errors). -- Hoary (talk) 11:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Adabana? I didn't realize there were any other readings for 毒 other than doku. Or is this one of those cases where the author invented the reading? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

This is the joy of kanji: people can do as they damn well please. Usually, though, they employ rubi to make it clear that this is what they're doing. Well, I've found rubi. I hope to wake up to find a good response to this; if so, I'll update and improve the article. (Meanwhile, Steidl.) -- Hoary (talk) 15:08, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for showing us interesting findings. Adabana is usually written as 徒花 (仇花)[12] and I couldn't find the usage like 毒花 in the dictionary.　Since (the part of) the book is depicting prostitutes in the Akasen era (in Hinodechō, Yokohama?), I imagined that she may intended to imply that those fruitless flowers (prostitutes) were also poisoning themselves by the occupation they had to choose and it might be the reason she wanted to use 毒 character instead of 徒 (calling them as doku(bana) that sounds malicious, is also too straightforward). Anyway, OPACs and WorldCat are necessary to be updated.--Jjok (talk) 17:12, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Morning, Jjok and all. I woke to find other mistakes of mine in the article, and I hope that this set of edits has fixed them. I had trouble finding a way to fix them that would be palatable to people who know Japanese, people who don't know Japanese but are interested, people who are enterprising and may find contradictory material in bibliographical databases and be tempted to "correct" accordingly, and people who very understandably have no interest in the tedious intricacies of Japanese script and instead want to find out about the woman's photographs already. (My solution [?] has been to relegate this stuff to longwinded footnotes.) -- Hoary (talk) 02:08, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Aftrnoon, Hoary. 刀 is not her surname. It's a part of her given name. 刀/to 洋/yo 子/ko. She was born as 常盤 刀洋子 and uses とよ子 as her photographer's name. What does the ref. book actually say? Oda Mari (talk) 05:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
I found ref. See this and check other g-search results. Oda Mari (talk) 05:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Duh! Of course! The reference book says that 刀洋子 is her 本名, and it's ambiguous in Matsumoto's book too. But of course you're right. Thank you! ¶ Perhaps editing articles on Japanese people is beyond my capabilities, though I'd like to think that, with NihonJoe, I've improved the article. Your direct edits to it would of course be appreciated. -- Hoary (talk) 05:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Kenji Suzuki can you help?

The article on former television announcer Kenji Suzuki has been tagged as an unreferenced biography of a living person since January 2009, which is the current focus month of the BLP Rescue Project. I have tried, and failed, to find any reliable sources to support this text. There's plenty of information over at ja.wikipedia but every reference there is to another Wikipedia page. I've followed a couple through to external links but drawn a blank. I've drawn a blank at the NHK website. Google search is difficult to narrow down. Nothing I can see on GNews. I've used the Japanese spelling and Google translate but I'm not getting anywhere. This need someone who can read Japanese, I think. I'm posting here in the hope that someone might be kind enough to take a look and help. If it stays unreferenced much longer, it may be nominated as an AfD.--Plad2 (talk) 09:35, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Inline notes were added, citing Library of Congress authority file and OCLC identity page. Also, a dynamic list of published works was created. --Tenmei (talk) 18:21, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for that, but we are now down to the last few for the month of January 2009, and a lot of them are Japanese. Please see the list at Wikipedia talk:Unreferenced BLP Rescue#The remainders from January 2009 and see if you can help. Once we finish them, there are still 225 unreferenced BLPs linked to this project plus 91 Anime and Manga articles that are often very hard for non-Japanese speakers to reference. Your help in referencing them is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. The-Pope (talk) 14:51, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Selected works

In the article about Ichimatsu Tanaka, Tanakasthename is uncomfortable with one sentence. The disputed sentence and its accompanying citation were deleted here and restored here:

Ichimatsu's published writings encompass 228 works in 326 publications in 6 languages and 2,797 library holdings.<:ref>WorldCat Identities: Tanaka, Ichimatsu 1895-1983</ref>

A credible complaint which "falls between the cracks" of wiki-policy

IMO, Tanakasthename's complaint is addressed by the first paragraph at WP:V which explains: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. IMO, the summary information about Ichimatsu's published works is justified by wiki-policy. One or more details may need to be "tweaked" as a result of further research, but the summary data are arguably good and sufficient as a first step in a constructive direction -- compare Talk:Ichimatsu Tanaka#Selected works. I wonder what others think about this? --Tenmei (talk) 18:42, 10 January 2011 (UTC) My point is simply that what you seem to understand to be "summary information about Ichimatsu's published works" is simply not that at all. When WorldCat lists these overviews, it does not attempt to sort any of the datum out. A good example: On WorldCat Identities page for Ichimatsu Tanaka, click on "French" language items on the far right. Notice that what WorldCat counts as FOUR separate works is actually only ONE. Or, to make it even clearer, take a look at this author's works sorted by title. You will notice that on the first page alone, although WorldCat lists TEN entries, these ten entries represent only SIX works. In other words, the sentence: "Ichimatsu's published writings encompass 228 works in 326 publications in 6 languages and 2,797 library holdings" is not only not true, but is also a misunderstanding of the source being cited. This is not a big deal for this one article, but this is not the first time I have seen data from WorldCat cited in this way, and this misunderstanding holds true for all of these examples. The only way to make that sentence "true" (i.e., worthwhile?) would be to rewrite it as "WorldCat Identities identifies.... works associated with this author," or something like that. WP:V also includes, however, several sentences later: This policy requires that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed to a reliable, published source in the form of an inline citation, and that the source directly support the material in question. If a source is being cited for material that is not at all supported by that source (i.e., because it is not being used/understood properly), then I see no benefit of this data being included in its current form. Tanakasthename (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2011 (UTC) [Note: I indented the diff above. It appears that Tanakasthename may not know that it is conventional in our wiki-discussion threads to indent each new contributor's paragraphs so that the comments of serial participants can be readily distinguished. --Tenmei (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2011 (UTC)] I understand Tanakasthename's argument and the illustrative examples are very clear. IMO, the deductive assessment drawn from those examples is not persuasive. In other words, Yes, good judgment is required in the decision-making about what to include (or not include) in a dynamic list. No, bad judgment was not shown by posting the disputed sentence which is accompanied by an inline citation with an embedded hyperlink. For me, the problem is that I typically don't know how to move beyond talking past each other. For purposes of comparison and contrast, please consider this paragraph: The number of Kenzaburo Ōe's works translated into English and other languages remains limited. His literary output includes many publications which are still only available in Japanese.<:ref>Books and Writers: Kenzaburo Ōe</ref> Kenzaburo's published writings encompass 699 works in 1,597 publications in 28 languages and 27,632 library holdings.<:ref>WorldCat Identities: Ōe, Kenzaburō 1935- </ref> Does this alternate example help clarify the issues at hand? Would it help to emphasize the verb "to encompass"? --Tenmei (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2011 (UTC) I think the Oe example actually supports my original position that the inclusion of this data is terribly misleading, if not downright false. It is quite clear from the linked page that as many as 1/3 or more of the "699 works" are not by Oe, but are about him, which makes the sentence "Kenzaburo's published writings encompass..." a complete falsehood. The verb "encompass" is not the issue here. Tanakasthename (talk) 17:47, 11 January 2011 (UTC) This dispute has been cross-posted at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Selected works. --Tenmei (talk) 18:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC) Tenmei, thank you for taking my concern seriously, although my concern seems to have been misconstrued in this cross-posting on "Reliable Sources." It is not the source itself that is in question. WorldCat and WorldCat Identities are entirely reliable as sources. My concern is that the data found therein has been applied to a wide variety of Wiki pages in a way that is not at all representative of the data actually found at WorldCat. I never claimed that WorldCat was misleading or false. You can clearly see just above that I call the "inclusion of this data" "misleading" and "false." It is unfortunate that my expression of concern for your handling of this data has been made to seem as if I have a concern with WorldCat itself. Tanakasthename (talk) 03:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC) Tanakasthename -- Yes, I'm predisposed to defer to any arguable point of view. Yes, your point-of-view is informed by a commitment to the highest standards of academic crediblity. Yes, we agree that an article about the life of Ichimatsu Tanaka requires this kind of closer scrutiny. Yes, the nature and quality of the sources you cite in support of your edits add gravitas to the opinions you express. Moreover, personal experience informs our recognition of the problematic caveats which are a part of the current state of WorldCat's evolving catalogue. In other words, I do understand this context; but this also means that I am able to appreciate the difference between a plausible opinion and a solid argument. Of course, in this one article, I can easily overlook the fact that your expressed concerns are unsupported and unpersuasive. This article's edit history provides ample reason to defer to your good judgment. I intend no disrespect with quibbles about any part of your reasoning. In a sense, the easy course of action is obvious and attractive. However, my interests in Wikipedia extends beyond this one article. In that broader context, I feel compelled to disagree mildly. These are factors in my decision to object: WorldCat identities is within the ambit of WP:RS. In other words, the source is reliable The sentence to which you object is properly conforming to WP:Cite. In other words, the reliable source is clearly cited. The numbers are an accurate reflection of the cited text. In other words, the disputed sentence is verifiable in the ways which are explained at WP:Verifiability. This one sentence is an edit which has complied with WP:Burden in the broader context of WP:Five Pillars. In other words, I've done what I'm supposed to do. In contrast, your rejection of the sentence does not yet meet any burden of persuasion or proof. The support you offer is merely a conclusory statement which cannot be parsed in the ways demonstrated here. Do you see my point? As nearly as I can tell, your objection focuses on something other than what the disputed sentence actually asserts. The sentence is modest, correct, verifiable, and clear; but you have deleted it anyway. I do not recognize a good reason for removing a similar sentence from other articles -- for example, articles about the following academics have similar sentences in the "Selected works" sections: Charles Lang Freer medal laureates Osvald Siren Ernst Kühnel Yukio Yashiro Ichimatsu Tanaka Laurence Sickman Roman Ghirshman Max Lohr Stella Kramrisch Alexander Coburn Soper III Sherman Lee Oleg Grabar Directors of the Reischauer Institute of Japanese Studies Edwin Reischauer Donald Shively Albert M. Craig Howard Hibbett Harold Bolitho Akira Iriye Helen Hardacre Andrew Gordon Susan Pharr For these reason, I feel obliged to argue for the restoration of the sentence you have removed yet again. I take your point; but is it possible that your perspective might need to be broadened? --Tenmei (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2011 (UTC) At the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, Tanakasthename seems to explain that parsing questions about "reliable sources" is a non-issue. IMO, the WorldCat Identities project does verifiably summarize a writer's output, not as an arithmetical sum, but in terms of a web — a network of "works" and "publications" and "languages" and "library holdings". Perhaps another venue is preferred? Please consider Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Technically "verifiable" and verifiably misconstrued. --Tenmei (talk) 03:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Technically "verifiable" and verifiably misconstrued

The words of Tanakasthename in this sub-section heading are a credible complaint. Summarizing the issues and history of the complaint:

• A. One sentence was the subject of critical scrutiny at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Selected works and Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Technically "verifiable" and verifiably misconstrued.
• B. The disputed sentence cited the WorldCat Identities overview summary of "works" and "publications" and "languages" and "library holdings" which had been derived from the evolving OCLC catalog. The statistical analysis was published online with the imprimatur of OCLC/WorldCat.
• C. Tanakasthename presented a conclusory argument, i.e., that "... unanalyzed search results from WorldCat Identities, while technically "verifiable," is also verifiably misconstrued ...."
• D. The WikiProject Japan talk page and Reliable Sources Noticeboard were not well-suited to address the concept of "technically 'verifiable'".
• E. The very high quality of Tanakasthename edits at Ichimatsu Tanaka has informed the unconventional attention which was given to this complaint.
• F. North8000 summarized succinctly here:

  "Tanakasthename is claiming that it fails a standard which is not a Wikipedia standard" and "Tanakasthename has not even raised a a WP-relevant challenge, much less supported such a challenge." (bold and italics added for emphasis)

• G. The very specific nature of this talk page venue plus North8000's good judgment did encourage Tanakasthename to present a 7-point analysis here which helped clarify the complaint.
• H. IMO, without North8000's significant contribution, the impasse would have persisted and we would have continued talking past each other.

Tanakasthename -- Thank you for investing both time and care. Our work together is an example of successful collaborative editing. This re-drafted sentence incorporates your fine-tuning perspective:

In a statistical overview derived from writings by and about Ichimatsu Tanaka, OCLC/WorldCat encompasses roughly 200+ works in 300+ publications in 6 languages and 2000+ library holdings.<:ref>WorldCat Identities; Tanaka, Ichimatsu 1895-1983</ref>

I will take on the task of making changes in other articles with a similar sentence. --Tenmei (talk) 17:10, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

There were more than 100 articles which needed to be edited. --Tenmei (talk) 03:11, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Blood Type

How important is it to mention a Japanese person's blood type in their biographies? Must it be placed in the first paragraph of the intro?

If it's not terribly important, I'm going to move Miyuki Kanbe's blood type out of her intro and place it farther down in the article. --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:25, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I would argue that it's not necessary at all. It may be fine to include in the JA Wikipedia where that sort of knowledge is more appropriate to the people reading it, but I don't think we need it on the English Wiki. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 03:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

10th anniversary celebrations in Japan

Come celebrate with us! Even if you aren't in Japan, there's a bunch of other celebrations around the world listed here.

For anyone interested, there will be Wikipedia 10th Anniversary celebrations in Kyoto on January 22 and in Tokyo on February 5. Details on those pages. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 08:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

T. Nakajima - who is this person?

I can't find this name anywhere in Wiki.

• Categor Japanese Astronomer
• Gliese 229
• Brown dwarf

None of these 2 pages mentions that this astronomer disovered the first Brown Dwarf (not to mention the first Menthane Dwarf). Thanks, Marasama (talk) 23:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

He is an assistant professor of National Astronomical Observatory of Japan.[13] He discovered a cool brown dwarf in 1995.[14] Hope this helps. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Marasama (talk) 21:23, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Battle of Midway and Japanese naming conventions

In editing the article Battle of Midway, back in March 2009 I added this to the infobox:

• Yamamoto Isoroku
  Kondo Nobutake
  Nagumo Chūichi
  Yamaguchi Tamon (KIA)

One editor, so far, has disagreed with me incorporating this in the infobox, and has since attempted to remove it. Now that I have read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Names of modern figures (which I probably should have done in the first place) there seems to be some differences between Parshall and Tully, who have worked closely with Japanese historians, and Wikipedia Style - I also note that there is some heated debate over changes made to the MoS. Any thoughts as to whether I should leave this as is, or revert back to the "Western order of given name + family name for Western alphabet"? TiA Minorhistorian (talk) 02:33, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

As you have noted, the MoS is clear-cut on this. The heated debate you mention presumably concerns whether/when we should use macrons in Japanese names, but I don't recall ever seeing any arguments over name order in the past. In short, yes, you should revert and stick to the standard western order of given name + family name for Japanese names, unless they were born before 1868. --DAJF (talk) 04:34, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

What DJF wrote. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Why does WP:Japan have the given name|family name convention while WP:Korea is the opposite? This contradiction has already tripped me up once. Cla68 (talk) 05:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Meiji people, probably those who went abroad, started to use the given name|family name order to avoid confusion. It's not difficult to think there were lots of confusion at that time as most Westerners did not know the traditional family name|given name order. It could be said a kind of a "do-as-the-Romans-do" way or Japanese omoiyari. Oda Mari (talk) 06:10, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

No problem, I should have come here first, before making these alterations. Minorhistorian (talk) 09:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Cla68, Korea's naming practice is more regular than the Japanese one and family names are easily recognizable. The switched name order sounds rather odd. The same can't be said for Japanese names. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 04:38, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Featured list candidate review needed

Hello! List of National Treasures of Japan (crafts: others) is currently a featured list candidate and in need of more reviews. I would be very happy if somebody took the time to have a look at the article and leave comments/questions/suggestions and possibly a vote ("support" or "oppose") on the nomination page. Thanks. bamse (talk) 22:05, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

It is now listed as "Nominations urgently needing reviews", meaning that unless it receives more reviews (one or two more should be sufficient) it is in danger of failing. So far it received 2 "support" and no "oppose" votes. Please take the time to review the list and to leave your vote. Thank you. bamse (talk) 15:53, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Tokyo Subway

There's a proposal for Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Tokyo Subway task force at the WikiProject Council. 65.93.14.196 (talk) 05:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Request for Help with SHINKILOW page

Thank you to all the Project Japan contributors. I would like to ask if anyone is interested in helping on the Shinkilow page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkilow

I don't have experience setting up articles on Wiki, and so far I have gotten nothing but criticism and threats of deletion for the stub. If any of you are familiar with the Japanese music and concert scene, and are familiar with Shinkilow's work, it would be great to have someone take an interest in working on the article. Doumo! thanks. --APDEF (talk) 03:31, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the Japanese music scene, but most of the issues with this article could be resolved if you provided references for the last two sentences of the article that are marked with "citation needed" (Shinkilow at the Fuji Rock Festival and in Graz). It would be good if you had independent (not Shinkilow's website) sources). I could do the technical part of adding references if necessary. Just let me know the url (or other location) of a reference for these statements. bamse (talk) 10:42, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

File:Rising sun.svg

File:Rising sun.svg has been nominated for deletion. It appears to be the Japanese Airforce roundel. `65.93.14.196 (talk) 07:02, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

If you need the correct file for an article, it's actually found at File:Japan Air Self-Defense Force roundel.svg. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Review help at new article

I just wrote Bloody Saturday (photograph) and I need someone familiar with the Japanese language to assess the article for accessibility, to determine whether it is B-Class. Thank you! Binksternet (talk) 00:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Japanese Street Fashion article

is there an article on the Japanese wikipedia that corresponds to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.219.104 (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there's an article per se, but there's Category:日本のファッション, a category for it. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 17:12, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Ushio Sugawara

I don't know if this is a keeper or a tosser, but it's certainly intriguing, please have a look!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 07:23, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

{{Japanese cuisine}}

I am creating a side bar template to adorn the various Japanese cuisine articles (Surprisingly there isn't one) and would like some help.Here are some others I have made:

Meals and dishes

• {{Meals}}
• {{Pizza}}

Cuisines

• {{American cuisine}}
• {{Argentine cuisine}}
• {{Brazilian cuisine}}
• {{British cuisine}}
• {{Canadian cuisine}}
• {{Chinese cuisine}}
• {{Indian cuisine}}
• {{Indonesian cuisine}}
• {{Irish cuisine}}
• {{Italian cuisine}}
• {{Japanese cuisine}}
• {{Korean cuisine}}
• {{Malaysian cuisine}}
• {{Moroccan cuisine}}
• {{Pakistani cuisine}}
• {{Russian cuisine}}
• {{Thai cuisine}}
• {{Taiwanese cuisine}}
• {{Vietnamese cuisine}}

See also

• {{Cuisines}}
• {{Meals navbox}}

I need to populate this and there are several articles that I know will go in there, does any one have any ideas? --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 10:10, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Mari Nakano

Can you folks help me with Japanese language sourcing, to include her kanji? Thanks and good night!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 18:46, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I can certainly tell you that that article is hurting in terms of notability. Two primary sources and a LinkedIn account? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

That's helpful... anyone else?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:23, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Can these two Japanese-language sources ([15], [16]) be used for this article? Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I think so, thank you! Family name is in kanji, personal name seems to be in hiragana.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:50, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

"Kuratanov"

"Kuratanov" is, we are told (without sourcing of any kind), a Japanese photographer and pop culture personality. Even his own website consists of a single photo inviting you to click it -- and that's all. I'm underwhelmed, but then I don't claim to understand Japanese pop culture (softcore porn etc). Straightforward AfD fodder, or am I missing something big here? -- Hoary (talk) 02:13, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I generally agree with you on this one. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:36, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

全面的に同意. I found his blog via Yinling's blog. The man in black jacket seems to be him. I don't think he is notable. Oda Mari (talk) 09:18, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of looking up Yinling. Now that is a real treasure of an article. STOP! Don't think of reading it if you are sipping a beverage: laughter (I suspect unintended by the writer) may cause you to squirt your mouthful out of your nostrils. So first pause to swallow. The article is topped by the calm instruction: This article may be confusing or unclear to readers. Please help clarify the article; suggestions may be found on the talk page. Alas no suggestion is to be found on the talk page; perhaps the good members of WikiProject Japan would care to provide some. (Me, I'll start with a question: Is what Yinling has on her head a miniature replica of the famed Asahi Golden, er, thing?) -- Hoary (talk) 15:41, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, for one thing the Yinling article uses an earlier version of the guy's mock Soviet nickname from which his actual name is easier to glean: "Hiraokanovsky Kuratachenko", i.e. Hiroaki Kurata. The Kuratanov article gives the first name in the nickname (in Cyrillic only) as Sergey. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:10, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

"The existence of Shinto before the Meiji era is contested"

User:Urashimataro is making edits using "The existence of Shinto before the Meiji era is contested". Per WP:Fringe theories, I have never heard anyone here espouse that, it seems to come from a single source. Anyone?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 06:36, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I should have said "before the middle ages", which is more correct, but in any case what Kintetsubuffalo calls "a fringe theory" is actually a very common criticism of the classic view of Shinto which is high time Wikipedia reflected. Prominent historians like Kuroda Toshio, Sueki Fumihiko, Abe Yasurō, John Breen, Mark Teeuwen, Allan Grapard, Karen Smyers, and others all subscribe to the view that the religion called Shinto is a Meiji era invention. I can prove what I say with countless quotations from the best authorities. My edit aimed only at achieving a NPOV, and my changes were, as anyone can verify seeing the history of the Hachiman article, very innocent. Perhaps he should have first posted this question, and THEN, perhaps, proceed with the undo. -- Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 07:00, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what this is about -- not really; but in my experience, Urashimataro's careful edits are very much concerned with maintaining the academic credibility of our project. As context, please consider Revision history of Template:Shinto shrine.

My best guess is that the normal process of collaborative editing will help resolve this misunderstanding. In other words, this does not need to be problematic. In fact, this thread has already produced the beginnings of an editing process, i.e.,

• The existence of State Shinto before the Meiji era is uncontested. "Before the Meiji period, the existence of State Shinto as we know it has not been contested.
• The existence of Shinto before the middle ages is contested by some contemporary scholars. "Before the middle ages, the existence of Shinto as we know it has been contested by some contemporary scholars."

I suppose it is possible that a misconstrued phrase or a clause could have been inconsistent with WP:Synthesis? If so, it is possible that Urashimataro may have erred in some inadvertent manner. In any case, a closer examination of the supporting reliable sources will make the relevant factors plain. In other words, my guess is that this likely nothing more than an example of miscommunication; and any impasse can be resolved by examination of the specific citations which inform Urashimataro's writing. --Tenmei (talk) 07:32, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps this is a chance to discuss whether to proceed or not with something I think is necessary: the revision of Shinto-related articles, including Shinto, to reflect the lack of consensus among historians about what Shinto exactly is. This may sound incredible to those unfamiliar with the subject, but those who read about Shinto know what I am talking about. As I know from experience, without this crucial piece of information reading about Shinto can be a very frustrating and confusing experience, because different texts by world-class universities say conflicting things about it. A NPOV would require explaining all this to readers. Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 08:10, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The fallen ginkgo at Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū

Urashimataro -- This may a good time to remind you of something you already know. The first paragraph at WP:V explains:

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth-— that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."

The project you propose is worthy; but it is also problematic. You must be prepared to proceed slowly and gingerly.

A good first step would be to try to persuade Kintetsubuffalo to change from the role of a skeptical critic to the role of a trusted colleague and ally, yes? --Tenmei (talk) 14:45, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Urashimataro -- An arguably pivotal sentence here is weak because there are no articles about the "prominent" scholars whose names you list.

Prominent historians like Kuroda Toshio Toshio Kuroda, Sueki Fumihiko Fumihiko Sueki, Abe Yasurō Yasurō Abe, John Breen, Mark Teeuwen, Allan Grapard, Karen Smyers, and others all subscribe to the view that the religion called Shinto is a Meiji era invention."

Maybe I can be helpful by trying to create stubs for each of these academics? --Tenmei (talk) 18:25, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I think that it would. But let's not go overboard here. One simple reason why Kuroda Toshio and Sueki Fumihiko are unlikely to turn blue is that their names haven't been inverted. One reason why no such name is likely to turn blue is that these aren't allegedly prominent historians of, say, the decline and fall of Nazi Germany but instead allegedly prominent historians of (I inexpertly guess, without bothering to google) Shintō or Japanese mythmaking or similar, and such people are rarely interviewed on "Fox News" or otherwise impinge on the mass anglophone semiconsciousness. In short, while I have no opinion on this matter, I'm willing to be persuaded that a position may have become the mainstream in relevant books coming out of the university presses despite the clash of this opinion with what's written in grade-school surveys of world religion and the like and despite the fact that the names of its proponents may be unknown to me, sitting on the Clapham omnibus. -- Hoary (talk) 01:38, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I found Kuroda's page and Sueki's on Japanese Wikipedia, but there's no explanation of their work on Shinto. I'm not convinced that their theories are persuasive. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 13:12, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

A BBC "Shinto" website explicitly mentions Toshio Kuroda in a section entitled "Problems in studying Shinto history" (at the bottom of the "History" webpage):

"The scholar Kuroda Toshio has suggested that the traditional view of Shinto as the indigenous religion of Japan stretching back into pre-history is wrong. He argues that Shinto didn't emerge as a separate religion until comparatively modern times, and that this happened for political reasons. The traditional view, he says, is a modern construction of Shinto that has been projected back into history."

This suggest that the scholarship of Kuroda is both:

• A. "a very common criticism of the classic view of Shinto", as Urashimataro argues here
• B. considered fringe theories, as Kintetsubuffalo argues here

IMO, the assertion that "the existence of Shinto before the Meiji era is contested" can be both verifiable and vulnerable to reasonable questions and criticism based on weight.

In this context, the obvious practical solution is for Urashimataro and Kintetsubuffalo to work together in a collaborative editing and consensus-building process. --Tenmei (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2011 (UTC)