Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively

← Previous edit Next edit →

Content deleted Content added

VisualWikitext

Inline

Revision as of 11:05, 30 April 2019

Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks

AfDs

Ghosts (Pac-Man) (8 participants)
Midnight.works (5 participants)
Revenge of the Killer Robots from Hell (3 participants)
Vette (Star Wars) (3 participants)
International Hobo (1 participant)
Wally Scharold (4 participants)
Cake Mania (series) (2 participants)
Do You Like Horny Bunnies? (17 participants; relisted)

Merge discussions

Other discussions

No major discussions

A new newsletter directory is out!

A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.

– Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ours is there. Inactive. :( Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 03:35, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey if anyone wants to get it back up and running I can oblige in volunteering again. GamerPro64 03:41, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Have y'all considered turning the VG newsletter into a single, occasional update for the Signpost instead? The collaboration could become less about producing an issue and more about producing regular pieces on elements that concern enwp as a whole. czar 13:41, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not entirely sure how to approach the Signpost on that. GamerPro64 04:06, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Character articles and the possible overuse of cosplay images

I know I'm not here as often as I was before, but I've noticed a great deal of character articles now have a free-use cosplay image squeezed into them, namely by user ‎SNAAAAKE!! (talk · contribs). I'm going to be direct: these feel more like padding than actually adding encyclopedic content to the articles, especially with how mainstream cosplaying has become, and do feel unless there's a particularly unique reason for cosplay (such as an early example of the genre or frequency of it), I think some restraint would be better here. What's everyone's else's thoughts on the subject?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:22, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, they don't really have a place here unless its notable in its own way. Example: Voice actors cosplaying their own characters might be more notable. And this is coming from a cosplay photographer. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 15:28, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's game promotion, not "mainstream cosplaying" (which is a hobby and not job). SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 15:47, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A single cosplay picture is reasonable; more than one is generally unnecessary. --Masem (t) 15:56, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was about "a single image". (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ivy_Valentine&action=history) Also really - cosplay is a type of a leisure activity, not employment for promotional purposes. It's not a fancy word for "dressed up as character". SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 16:02, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Kung Fu Man. They’re generally overused, and often feel a bit forced, like a bit of promotion. I only favor inclusion if there’s particularly noteworthy third party coverage on the cosplayer. I thought we already had a loose consensus on this somewhere... Sergecross73 msg me 16:13, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I need to repeat myself perhaps because apparently I wasn't clear: THEY ARE NOT COSPLAYERS AND YES IT IS EXACTLY PROMOTION. Like see Soulcalibur#Characters? It's not a play, they work, on promoting the game, as contract employees of Bamco. On a more important note, most games don't have info on the PS Plus releases for PSN subscribers, someone must go through the releases and add it to articles. Other subscription or sometimes even just free releases too. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 16:18, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay great, sub in whatever word you want for “cosplay(er)” and you’ve still got my stance on how to handle this. Sergecross73 msg me 16:24, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The word is model, and more precisely promotional model (who don't even need to be dressed as anyone in particular). I don't understand this "like a bit of promotion" at all, I thought your problem was it being "promotion of a cosplayer". There are actual cosplay pictures too, like for example Chun-Li has one (near the model employed by Warner Bros) and Evil Queen (Disney) has really also just 1 (the others ranging from Disney entertainers to celebrities dressed for events). A reminder these images (from Commons) are free to use as anyone likes. Also: again hijacking the thread for the PS+ releases, someone needs to do it. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 16:39, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with kung fu man and sergecross. also it may not be promoting the game but it could be promoting the cosplayer. and cosplaying is a profession too.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 17:07, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've been hanging around cosplayers (and models) for near 20 years and I really know what is and what isn't cosplay (the notion that just cosplaying on the scene is a profession is absurd, unless it's about making costumes and selling them - for example usually even winning prizes at a competition won't even bring you back the money invested, the girls who make money from their thirsty fans are something else and it's more like booby twitch streamers and such). Anyway usually a cosplayer in the Commons is being unidentified, if it's really your pain for some reason I don't understand but hopefully might somehow alleviate. PS+ RELEASES. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 17:37, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If we have freely-licensed images of real-world quality official depictions of fictional characters, you can be goddamn sure we should encourage their inclusion in articles, not discourage it. They're a blessing of high encyclopedic value, especially for this topic area where we constantly tout our need for "real-world perspective" instead of "in-universe". If we were talking about hobbyist cosplay or low-quality depictions then value would be debatable but that's not the case. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 17:58, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I got to agree here. A person in real life dressing up as a character from a video game is a good example of that character's real-life impact. Regards So Why 18:33, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and there was also just that recently at Talk:Tifa_Lockhart#Advent_Children_image about https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/星名美津紀 as employed by Sony - the badly outdated article doesn't even mention many/most of her more recent game appearances but somehow the problem was an image of allegedly "cosplay" (in pejorative sense). And the things like this conflating gravure idols with cosplayers (also originally only Japanese phenomenon) leads to such effects in Wikipedia as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Race_queen where only a few people who evidently had no idea about the Japanese culture surrounding race queens deleted the article, and which ironically happened not long before the "grid girls" issue hit big time when F1 banned them and there way were more English sources than needed from only that. And what is especially telling is that if they found the Japanese version (which is レースクイーン) and tried it they would find literally almost 100,000 Japanese sources indexed on Google News alone. So now there is a "virtual race queen" Reiko Nagase from Ridge Racer who has the article while the real ones don't. Congratulations, Wikipedia. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 18:30, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think cosplay is equivalent to a non-free image of the actual character. any cosplay would be in addition to the non-free content, not replace. But I like what sergecross said, if there's coverage on how cosplay works. I treat cosplay like fanart. what's stopping us from adding those in if they are free content? it just looks like 5 seconds of fame to me.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 19:20, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody's talking about cosplay or fanart, we're talking about official promotional models. And I don't think anyone is proposing replacing digital/in-game art with promotional model pictures altogether, the inclusion of these freely-licensed pictures are indeed in addition to existing article content. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 19:30, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the misinterpretation. the primary topic was about whether the inclusion of cosplay images is warranted in articles. I think the WP:VG/MOS should be updated for when we should use cosplay images.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 19:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I think the discussion got confused because KFM removed a freely-licensed file depicting Namco promotional material from the section covering promotion and merchandising, and then raised a thread here about cosplay pictures. :) Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 19:42, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well there is also the matter that by Snake's own admission he's not sure if it is an actual promotional material or not (to quote, the exact edit summary is "it's an official model (I think)"). In cases like Mai Shiranui or Kasumi_(Dead_or_Alive) it feels even more excessive, especially in the former where you have two images in rapid succession.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:09, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In fact looking up this particular instance it's not clear if this is an actual Namco promotion or not: IgroMir 2011 is the source of the event, but other than being listed as a gaming exhibition it's not actually showing any ties at all to Namco; in fact this nor any of the other shots even show Namco related products, and I can't find any evidence it was sponsored by them as a promotion.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:15, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

She was a model for the local distributor https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/СофтКлаб (http://www.gamer.ru/igromir/devushki-igromira-2011). There was an official Ivy for SCVI at IgroMir last year, too. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 20:38, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That makes a bit more sense, she's the model for 1C-Softclub, Russia's Sega Distributor. So it's at least still valid in this case, though not so much a direct Namco one. Was the SCVI model also for them or a different distributor? EDIT: Closer look, looks like this wasn't used to promote them distributing the game, but actually for a Soulcalibur V tournament they did.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:53, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And Sony's. 2018's Ivy worked directly for Bamco (Ловите у стенда H5 Bandai https://www.instagram.com/p/BobF2fEAGf2/). SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 09:11, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But aren't images suppose to supplement the text? They should only be included when they are truly needed. I think they are perfectly fine for character articles because it may be useful in showing their real-world impacts but using these images in a game's promotion section doesn't seem appropriate given that they are not quite related to the article's content. They are solely there for decorative purpose, which is against MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE. For instance, the image in Rise of the Tomb Raider#Release shows a Lara Croft cosplayer at IgroMir but the article neither mentioned the event nor Square Enix using promotional models or cosplay to promote the game. AdrianGamer (talk) 04:37, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Adriangamer. i will go one step further. cosplay culture is hard to say an impact. One cosplayer can dress up as hundreds of characters in a single year. shouldn't the text in the article reflect cosplay impact if we're going to include cosplay images? Is this a form of original research if we show an image of cosplay to show how much of an impact there is if theres no sources supporting it?Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 11:51, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So there are some users who insist on misinforming readers about the titles of DOOM and DOOM Eternal

By erasing any (all) information about the actual titles, all while inconsistently using the stylized "id Software" alright. I just realized I shouldn't be edit warring (further) and thought I'd bring here instead. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 16:08, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

id Software has a local consensus to use the lower-cased name because that is the one used most frequently by reliable, secondary sources (WP:COMMONNAME, in reference to note C on MOS:TMSTYLE). Doom and Doom Eternal should bow to MOS:TMRULES where in we encyclopedia-fy the title. Any notable stylization should be included in reliable sources at least semi-frequently (the box art does not suffice, as there would be a discrepancy for Doom Eternal's stylization, which is given as "DOOM ETERNAL" in the logo). Cf.: How would this "true title" serve the reader in any way? Lordtobi (✉) 07:23, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is used "at least semi-frequently" despite the obvious influence of Wikipedia (which is for example how "#GamerGate" was commonly turned into "Gamergate controversy" in mass media just because someone on Wikipedia wrote it once, and in similar the blatant English Wikipedia hoax "Second Battle of Donetsk Airport" has been repeated by some clueless journalists despite it's being simply a continuation of the Battle of Donetsk Airport that never had ceased in reality: https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Бої_за_Донецький_аеропорт). See https://www.google.com/search?q=Doom_3:_Resurrection_of_Evil&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X It's never "DOOM ETERNAL", no - not officially and not unofficially: https://www.google.com/search?q=doom+eternal&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 09:45, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your examples are confusing; while you claim that there was only one battle for the Donetsk Airport, yet the Ukrainian-language article you linked clearly lists two separate ones, and the article title is in plural. The "blatant English Wikipedia hoax" here is that they are split into two articles for clarity. Gamergate hashtags had a variety of capitalizations, including "#Gamergate", "#GamerGate" and "#gamergate", becuase most hashtag systems are case-insensitive, thus the article title is normalized to the standard English-language casing. Requested moves to "GamerGate" were turned down (if you oppose this, it would be better to open a new RM instead of complaining under an unrelated topic). Your Google query for Resurrection of Evil does not answer my question. Your Google query for Doom Eternal only shows that a handful of sources (of which not all are actually reliable) use this casing, but it still conflicts with the casing seen on the game's logo, which is actually the stylization you would expect to be listed in the lead note (per TMSTYLE examples). Lordtobi (✉) 10:40, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fighters Destiny

Fighters Destiny has an unusual, apparently homemade reviews table on it. Is there an easy way to substitute the standard table? I wanted to add "NGen = " to it. BOZ (talk) 13:29, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done --Izno (talk) 13:53, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are these sources considered adequate for notability

The refs directly in Draft_talk:RPG_Limit_Break are generally not independent, but I posted some additional links to Draft_talk:RPG_Limit_Break#Possible_sources_for_Notability. I'm not sure if those gamer websites are considered Reliable. Could someone from this wikiproject take a look? Thanx. Alsee (talk) 15:46, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Famitsu Heisei survey:

[1]

Famitsu has commissioned s survey of 7100 people on the best games of the Heisei period. The list will be top 20 games and they've already released the top 3: Chrono Trigger, Nier: Automata, and Breath of the Wild. They're also doing a 74 page booklet on gaming in the Heisei period. Once the print edition drops, English language gaming sites will likely leak the full 20 list. Harizotoh9 (talk) 16:27, 22 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

King's Bounty needs to be turned into a series article

The first game moved to King's Bounty (video game). --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 09:45, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't seem obvious to me at all. Maybe an article on the 1C King's Bounty games as a series, sure, but they're quite different from the original New World Computing King's Bounty, and only loosely some sort of grand series. SnowFire (talk) 18:33, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Articles needing improvement

Template:Formerly

Examples:

World of Tanks, World of Warplanes, World of Warships, War Thunder - I added/restored some content and also added illustrations, they're still not well and worst of all terribly outdated (years behind now)
- is Warface even popular, too? I have no idea, not from Wikipedia (but added some pics too and just thought about it)
Wangzhe Rongyao - possibly THE most popular game ever (anywhere) for which I made a quick article months ago and no one picked up it since (okay, few people did to be fair), but still there's not even a logo
- and the other extremely Chinese games (most of them) don't have articles at all (America/West-centrism is a huge problem with Asian gaming on English Wikipedia in general)
Fate/Grand Order - relatively no so bad but not good
- many very popular Japanese games don't have articles as well

and so on. At least someone did work on LoL since I checked it last time, a big improvement at first glance because I was about to add it but it's okay I guess (didn't read at all).

On a sort of related note, I just worked on the Metro novels to some degree, as they used to be just shit, and The Witcher books are still generally very poor stubs. It's source materials of some of the most popular single-player games and no one works on them. Too. --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 10:11, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In fact I only just presumed the popularity of Warships because also there's nothing there (there's at least a mention of 2 million beta testers for Warplanes). --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 10:14, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

These are the games that should be top priority of everything here. But even at Talk:Wangzhe Rongyao it was changed to "mid importance", despite it seemingly being played more than any other single game ever was. --SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 10:24, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Most popular seems like original research. Of all of those I've only heard of World of Tanks. I realize I'm one person, but that just furthers the point. --Teancum (talk) 10:41, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MOST POPULAR sounds like^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6] and so forth. Literally hundreds of millions of players and making multiple billions of dollars every year for years. Which apparently makes it only "mid importance". That you didn't even ever hear of it is just a part of the problem, of how the English Wikipedia almost entirely ignores games from the country of almost 1.4 billion people. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 11:20, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "World's top grossing mobile game debunks gender stereotype". TechNode. 3 July 2017.
^ "Tencent's WeGame gaming platform goes online September 1st". TechNode. 18 August 2017.
^ Chow, Vivienne (July 4, 2017). "Tencent Loses $14 Billion After Criticism From Chinese Media". Variety. Retrieved July 30, 2017.
^ "Why Tencent's controversial Honour of King has 200 million players". South China Morning Post.
^ "Mobile game King of Glory so popular in China, Tencent has to limit game plays". AsiaOne.
^ Moyen, Motek (28 August 2017). "Tencent's 'Honor Of King' Will Cannibalize International Sales Of 'League Of Legends'". Seeking Alpha.

Yeah League of Legends has been cleaned up a bit, but it still needs a lot of work. And I'm saddened there's absolutely no discussion of the characters considering how famous some of them are - not even a List of League of Legends characters... Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 11:16, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Satellizer: Note that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of League of Legends champions (2nd nomination) happened, so if you want to re-create that List, it'd be good to make sure the sourcing is solid first. I do agree that a number of its characters are discussed in reliable sources and are influential / popular, but there's been pushback against the more "gameplay" oriented lists. SnowFire (talk) 18:39, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, another extremely popular game, and yet most edits since September 2018 was some dude vandalizing and being reverted: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=League_of_Legends&offset=&limit=500&action=history SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 12:02, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, there’s nothing wrong per se with starting discussions like this, but most participants at WP:VG don’t really need ideas on things to work on. It’s a great place to come to for input or questions, but most of us are working on our own projects. (Not to mention, the whole complaining, “I-can’t-believe-you-guys-arent-working-on-this” type approach to volunteers probably isn’t helping motivate anyone either.) I mean, feel free to try, but I feel like this approach is just going to leave grumbling like before, when you commanded the project to fix the Playstation Plus games or whatever. Sergecross73 msg me 12:29, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When I said about PS+ nothing is urgent I take it back, it's actually urgent to work on the most popular games with poor articles to no articles. I think if you got something like (let's say) 20 most popular games from the 2010s they're played more than all the rest games combined at least during that decade if not ever (more people playing them every year, and China in particular having seen an explosion of popularity die to Chinese mobile games (and speaking of these, for example that one game that Diablo Mobile is allegedly a reskin of, Crusaders of Light, has no article still at all even as it's been released in English in 2017 and in China just Wangzhe Rongyao alone had 55 MILLION daily players in October of that year: [2]). SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 12:45, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Another issue, but somewhat related: Not nearly that popular individually but there's a genre of games that is massively popular among women and almost completely ignored both by Wikipedia and "games journalism" that is supposedly oh-so concerned about female gamers, as mentioned by Adrian Chmielarz 4 years ago, to quote: "The media prestige thing is basically about how games are presented to the general public. HOPA games can sell an insane amount of copies, in 2008 the publisher reported The Mystery Case Files franchise has sold more than 2.5 million units to date — and that was seven years ago. Top titles easily sell a few hundred thousand copies, making 99% of “core market” indies jealous. And yet you will not find any of these games grace the cover of Game Informer. Actually, you will most likely never read about HOPA in Game Informer at all. Or any other core gaming magazine in the world."[3] This is all of these (many many many) games repesented on Wikipedia - the total of only 38 out of hundreds/thousands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Hidden_object_games But really knowing some of you guys, you will more likely rather jump to delete most of even these few for being allegedly "not notable" rather than work on them and/or add more. The whole genre as such is covered by Wikipedia in literally 7 sentences and there's no mention of it whatsoever anywhere in "Women and video games". SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 13:11, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We have to go with what reliable sources say, not what we know. For example, right now the biggest sector in VG is the mobile market, and most RSes rarely touch that area, unless its about the "perversion" of a beloved franchise now on mobile. There are dozens of F2P along the lines of World of Tanks, but again, those rarely get touched by RSes. We're in a bind to try to cover these topics in any more detail. --Masem (t) 13:36, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is something we will have more and more problems with as time moves on because video game media in general is shifting towards video and podcasting to provide content. Amwisdx (talk) 18:35, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For so-called reliable sources for hidden objects and such: Chmielarz's linked to the archive of Casual Connect mag, here's an archive of the archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20150326182415/http://www.casualconnect.org/education.html#magazine (scroll down). SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 14:06, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If there is only one magazine that covers a topic, that's probably not going to do much for notability. Its great that exists, but if there's no coverage outside that magazine, that makes it a niche topic. --Masem (t) 14:09, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, I mean for the sources such as interviews Chmielarz (https://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,27880/ - Adrian Chmielarz is a very weird article that is about his dwelling life in the 1980s-1990s and covering his actual, international career in 2 sentences) used (linking https://medium.com/@adrianchm/women-and-video-games-f0eb7a7d75fa again) to write about what dedicated games women really play (and make, for themselves).SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 12:25, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I’m not saying these things aren’t important, I’m saying “Angrily berating volunteers into action” is a terrible approach that isn’t going to work. It looks like you’re dead set on trying though, so good luck. Sergecross73 msg me 14:44, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I still want to take a crack at fixing up a lot of our character articles and getting more of them to B or GA status at least. Too many are just honestly messy.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:37, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One thing to note, I suspect that single player games tend to make more of a connection with a player, to the point where they are motivated enough to want to improve the Wikipedia page for it. A lot of these multi-player games tend to be more pick up and play style. It leaves less of an impression. Harizotoh9 (talk) 17:12, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Game design program rankings for Full Sail University

Hi again! I've just posted a request to update the "Awards" section of the Full Sail University article. I don't edit the main space directly because of my conflict of interest, so I'm seeking editors who are willing to review my request and update the live article appropriately.

The proposed updates include rankings of the university's game design program, so I thought WikiProject Video games members might be interested. Thanks in advance for any help reviewing and updating the article. Inkian Jason (talk) 15:06, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (video game)

More eyes needed for Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde; I don't time to handle this myself. EverettTheUrban (talk · contribs) added a review from the Angry Video Game Nerd, and I reverted the edit telling the editor that AVGN reviews (and the Cinemassacre website for that matter) are not usable as sources. However, he added back the review, along with other sources that aren't reliable (including IMDB). His response is somewhere here. – Hounder4 17:11, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I removed AVGN review from that and about 18 pages total. However for Jekyll, it was immediately added back by an IP editor. Huh. Anyways, if you want a fun task, pick an e-celeb's article, and then click "what links here". Often you'll find their reviews added to various pages. I went through and trimmed them. Harizotoh9 (talk) 20:13, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

AVGN is a notable early e-celebrity. This doesn't mean his reviews are necessarily appropriate to include, unless a third-party has made note of that review. But there are factors beyond being an e-celeb that make his name added to certain non-game articles appropriate, as long as reliable 3-rd party sourcing makes that connection. EG the mention of AVGN's movie for the Atari video game burial is noted by several mainstream sources, so that's fine to keep . Same with noting AVGN's attention to some games caused renewed attention and why they became games notable for negative reception. IF it was only AVGN's opinion on those game, then no that wouldn't be appropriate. It's via the third-party RS observation that makes the inclusion of what AVGN has said to be appropriate. --Masem (t) 20:20, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hero Shooters (Cat this time)

Category:Hero shooters has been created (or more densely populated) with quite some questionable entries. I'm fairly certain the category can probably survive, but anyone who wants to review some of the newer entries.... Borderlands for example has been added. I can see the case, but it pre-dates the typically-multiplayer-team-based aspect of the "modern hero shooter" and I really doubt any reliable sources refer to it as such. -- ferret (talk) 12:08, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I can understand the argument that Borderlands are kind of "single-player hero shooter RPGs" but as you say, unlikely to be found in reliable sources. I removed Paragon (video game) as that's clearly a MOBA. Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 13:08, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't even aware of any other notable hero shooters besides Overwatch and Team Fortress 2. And a series like Borderlands is not a hero shooter, in my personal opinion. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 16:24, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You've seen how big Overwatch got, how could clones not pop-up? ;) The Hero Shooter clones bridged between the "everything's a MOBA" era and "everything is a BR" era. I'll admit I preferred Paladins (video game) to Overwatch... Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 19:07, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Entries like Borderlands or COD do not belong in the category unless the claim can be reliably sourced. There is no mention of "hero shooter" anywhere in the articles. It's just another case of categorization OR. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 19:17, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted the additions of Borderlands, COD, PvZ. -- ferret (talk) 19:20, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

From the few articles that try to deliniate what hero shooters are, they try to stress that team-based PVP is a seemingly essential feature (the synergies between heroes being important). I've been trying to see where the stance is on L4D or Vermintide sits for this, but I'm not seeing much since these are PVE than PVP. I would definitely say that we need sourcing in each article included that says "this game is considered a class-based/hero shooter". --Masem (t) 19:25, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Overwatch and pornography

There is a dispute about the non-free files used on the page. The dispute is over whether one of the files needs to be the complete video or if a single frame from this video sufficiently illustrates the given points. There is also a smaller point about whether or not both non-free images are needed and/or justified. The discussion currently involves two editors, myself and the file's uploader, so more input is needed. The discussion is at Talk:Overwatch and pornography#Animated video again. ~Cheers, Ten Ton Parasol 20:30, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Been watching this but not sure how to respond. Still on team "This should probably be merged and significantly trimmed" in regards to the article as a whole. -- ferret (talk) 20:31, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I need to wash my eyeballs JOE BRO 64 20:38, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've actually just suggested that no images are required, as they only seem to serve titillating the reader, which is absolutely a no no. --Masem (t) 20:45, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have to extend a formal apology, Joebro. RIP. Among the most infamous of the Overwatch topic, for sure. ~Cheers, Ten Ton Parasol 20:54, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK. Now that I think of it Sonic stuff is usually worse. JOE BRO 64 21:02, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are these images suitable in the first place? As they are non-free images (and also likely have copyright issues regardless),they should be devalued. The article is about fan made pornography of video game characters, so really any images of this should really just be of the character themselves from official media. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:26, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

B-Class assessment checklist

Back in April 2013, I proposed a possible B-Class assessment checklist, using the WP:FILM assessment guidelines as a model, but it didn't go through. So, maybe we should revisit it if it's absolutely necessary? Thanks. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:33, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see a use on a checklist for B-class. GamerPro64 19:17, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen the point of the B-List checklist. They exist on a few wikiprojects, but B class is a bit irrelevent. To me, it's just a way to display which articles are close to being suitable for GAN. The ones that do have this, often cause articles to simply all be set at C class, as no one wants to review for B class ahead of GA or FA. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:20, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds logical enough to me; maybe the assessment proposal wasn't needed after all. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:22, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to think that non-GA/FA assessments aren't really worth it in that if a user is out for active reviews they can do a peer review and be proactive, or else the processes themselves vet the articles. I've never seen a real issue with bold B-class assessments causing issues so it seems like an unneeded additional source of friction in the editing process. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 18:38, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In short, David, you’re saying the B-Class checklist for this project isn’t worth it? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:20, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Essentially. If other people think it's of utility I wouldn't protest, but it seems of limited utility (I'd take a similar issue with WP:FILM's honestly, but that view may be colored by my own editing experience.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 20:43, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, you could be right. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:16, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a fan of the B-class checklist generally. It standardizes the expectation while remaining a one-person assessment activity. --Izno (talk) 01:17, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Overemphasis on sex/sex appeal-related content in reception sections of female characters' articles

I feel that some female character articles have too strong an emphasis on sexuality. Not that instances of the character's sexuality/sex appeal should be ignored because of what they are, but it feels that some things either go into too great of detail, or are downright vulgar in how the information is presented. Certainly guilty of that myself. I was wondering if anyone would be interested in going over some of these articles and trying to help tweak them. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 10:08, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree, this has been a common complaint of mine as well. There’s way too much of this empty, pointless “X was ranked #8 on Complex’s ‘Hottest Girls of 2009’ because ‘she’s hawt and has long legs’”. But there may be some pushback, as 1) some people still don’t understand the problem with this and 2) for some of these character articles, that’s the only “reception” they could scrounge up. Sergecross73 msg me 10:42, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that it should necessarily be removed as much as condensed. ie, use these sources for a statement on, say, "[character X] has been praised as a video game sex icon by multiple outlets due to [characteristic X]." - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 11:02, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTCENSORED - reception is reception and as long as the comments are made by RS, I see no policy-backed rationale to alter this. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 11:43, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That’s not what I’m saying, though I can’t say I’m surprised to see it misunderstood that way. My point is more along the lines of WP:INDISCRIMINATE - Yes, if a reliable source says something, it can be elligible for inclusion, but just because there’s a source doesn’t mean it has to be included either. To create a less touchy analogy, I’d find it equally pointless to include that GamePro ranked Sonic the Hedgehog as #8 best mammal in a video game in 1994” as well. Sergecross73 msg me 11:52, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Only 8th? Sonic got robbed. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 12:06, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, human characters are mammals too... :P Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 12:09, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Perhaps my tone in my above comment came across as a bit aggressive - soz :) My reply was more in response to the "some things either go into too great of detail, or are downright vulgar in how the information is presented" comment, which I feel definitely falls afoul of NOTCENSORED. As for your Sonic example - I would agree with you that such a source probably won't contribute to notability and help poor Sonic survive a hypothetical AfD, though I wouldn't really have an issue including it in an article either. A closer analogy here would be "#8th best mammal in video games of all time", plus a few sentences explaining why. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 12:09, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, it’s fine, in fact, I hadn’t even initially seen the comment on vulgarity. Yeah, that’s not so much my concern, it’s definitely the short top 10 sentences that get added into the article that have little value/importance. As you say, the ones that show a more important scope (“of all time”) or can be expanded a few sentences to show a little more detail/importance, I have less of a problem with. And as NARH says too, sometimes it’s a matter of condensing like comments into a single sentence too, or just trimming some out when there’s example bloat. I’m not talking complete eradication of the commentary or anything. Sergecross73 msg me 12:38, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Vulgarity is more a thing of, as Serge mentioned, instances where people write ‘she’s hawt and has long legs’”. We should give a more encyclopedic summation, rather than quoting stuff like that. So like, "Wario was ranked the fifth hottest male character because of his weight" rather than "Wario was ranked the fifth hottest male character because he is "thicc af."" - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 12:55, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It actually reminds me of the Poison (Final Fight) talk page, where there was a debate over whether the 'trap' slur should be used when a non-slur version of the term could be used instead. If there's a way to depict the intent of the message in a way that is more appropriate. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 13:00, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We should be on the same page then. Re your Wario example, it was my understanding that most articles are already being written with phrasing more like the former than the latter - looking at the "Sex symbol" subsection for Ivy Valentine, for example, I'd say it's formal and academic in tone considering the subject matter. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 13:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

While scanning character articles and making notations of articles that need improvement, I had just noticed a few articles that go beyond an encyclopedic tone, though I can't remember which ones they were. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 13:11, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As Sergecross pointed out, most of these articles likely can be found to heavily use "listicles" , top 10 lists from not-quite-bad RSes that give maybe 50-100 words about each of the top 10 hottest VG characters, or the like. Yes, these lists did not always focus on sex appeal but their most common use was for articles on "sexy" female characters. Hence why we have steered as far as possible from accepting these articles if they are principally built on coverage from listicles. There are certainly VG characters w/ known sex appeal that is part of their reception (eg Lara Croft), and we're not censoring there, just that, we want "in depth" coverage, and listicles simply cannot provide that. This goes for any other VG character too. --Masem (t) 13:33, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You know what's more important than being PC? Updating the articles. For example of all the SNK characters I think only Mai and Nakoruru are entirely up to date regarding their appearances, and that's only I keep it this way. And the entire articles of, for another example, Warcraft characters (all of them) were just really badly written when I've checked them, and that awful writing extends to their reception sections (as tagged by me in Jaina Proudmoore 4 years ago) but really to everything. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 15:18, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No one's talking about being PC, and it's not a zero-sum game. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 15:22, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please stay on topic, Snake. If you’ve got unrelated concerns, make a new discussion. Sergecross73 msg me 18:55, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I was the guy who wrote those Warcraft character articles, lol. I've always wanted to improve them later on but never got round to doing so. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 10:51, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If the reception sections focus a lot on the sexual aspects of a character, I highly doubt it’s undue weight. The reality is that’s what the sources involve, and even now it’s rare that many characters in general, especially female ones, get much deep content on that front. Better writing should probably not be spending a lot of time quoting passages and reciting exact placements and rankings in lists or similar, but that’s an issue of clear and concise encyclopedic writing. Without better examples I don’t see how anything is broadly actionable, certainly as “vulgar”. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 15:27, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But we need to take into account whether content is just repeating the same stuff over and over, with listicles about a character's sex appeal that doesn't go into such great depth that we need to go into excruciating detail on the subject. Also, while it's true that I can't provide specific examples in this instance, I think Serge agrees that the text of these articles often (or at least too often) quotes things that needn't be quoted. This is true for more than just this problem, but it's a problem that's a lot more consistent here. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 15:39, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Then that’s an issue with WP:INDISCRIMINATE or stylistic concerns. Same as any other part of the article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:21, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, as NARH notes, some of my concerns here are about the pointlessness of the direct quotes. To tie it in to Sonic articles again, as to not confuse the situation with other social/sexual issues, people would write Reception like “Tails was ranked 10th best sidekick of 2011, calling him “cute” but “fierce”. IGN notes that he was “the sort of guy who would support you.” Its correctly sourced...but it says little of importance. Sub in female characters names and mundane observations about their physical appearance and you’ve got what I’m talking about here. Sergecross73 msg me 19:15, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would advise to think of the reception as a formal letter. Try focusing one section on the character, personality, or another certain traits appeals to others (gameplay moves, relationships, etc). The sex appeal might fit well in one paragraph unless there is a notable division between positive and negative notes (maybe a character is oversexualized, or maybe the character's sexuality is not appealing).Tintor2 (talk) 19:29, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Is regarded as oversexualized" by this or another particular person/institution, not "is oversexualized". As I've recently seen with the still very one-sided (showing only POV of Americans and especially sex-negative feminists, with nothing about how a Japanese character was received in Japan, I put some rather cosmetic edits to alleviate it while inserting a photo) article Quiet (Metal Gear) - there are and never been no global nor timeless standards for "oversexualization", and for example in some Islamic countries just merely showing hair is outright illegal and so the government in for example Iran is not only banning games but also doing things like specifically banning most of female characters from local LoL tournaments. I've already mentioned Nakoruru in this very thread, so now I'll point out to how I didn't neglect the Japanese perspective while writing Nakoruru#Reception and cultural impact. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 20:03, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, I don't know that you know what exactly a sex-negative feminist is. More a SWERF as opposed to someone who criticizes a design for being oversexualized. Also Quiet is silly. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 21:35, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A sex-negative feminist is an opposite of a sex-positive feminist (a well-known example of a very sex-negative one: A. Sarkeesian who hates displays of female sexuality in media and has also vocally opposed slut walks, habitually calls sex workers "prostituted women", and so forth as for female sexuality in the real world). Quiet is "silly" powerful and literally awesome (that is: inspiring awe), but that's just my POV. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 11:05, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I 1000% agree with Snake that our reception sections are overwhelmingly America-centric. I guess much of this can't be helped since most of us can't speak Japanese (or any other language), but I definitely would love more Japanese (or non-English, really) commentary in our reception sections, WP:GLOBALIZE and what not. I'm sure everyone else here would say the same. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 10:42, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the discussion, there seems to be two separate issues being discussed here:
1) That sexuality/sex appeal character reception in articles is inappropriate/vulgar/politically incorrect - broad consensus seems to be that removing these would be improper as per WP:NOTCENSORED;
2) That "top 10" listicles, sexuality-related or otherwise, don't contribute much of substance towards the article - this is a topic that has been debated ad nauseam on this WikiProject, both on this page and in deletion discussions, so the line between what is acceptable and what isn't shouldn't be too unclear now. Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 10:51, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lara Croft infobox image issue

Talk:Lara_Croft#There's_no_infobox_image - all parties welcome Satellizer el Bridget ^(Talk) 14:05, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for posting that, it slipped my mind as soon as I had the idea. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 14:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on Dexerto (dexerto.com) on the reliable sources noticeboard

There is an RfC on the reliability of Dexerto (dexerto.com) on the reliable sources noticeboard. If you're interested, please participate at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § RfC: Dexerto. — Newslinger talk 20:07, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "World's top grossing mobile game debunks gender stereotype". TechNode. 3 July 2017.

[2] "Tencent's WeGame gaming platform goes online September 1st". TechNode. 18 August 2017.

[variety-loses-3] Chow, Vivienne (July 4, 2017). "Tencent Loses $14 Billion After Criticism From Chinese Media". Variety. Retrieved July 30, 2017.

[4] "Why Tencent's controversial Honour of King has 200 million players". South China Morning Post.

[5] "Mobile game King of Glory so popular in China, Tencent has to limit game plays". AsiaOne.

[6] Moyen, Motek (28 August 2017). "Tencent's 'Honor Of King' Will Cannibalize International Sales Of 'League Of Legends'". Seeking Alpha.

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]

@@ Line 226: / Line 226: @@
 :"Is regarded as oversexualized" by this or another particular person/institution, not "is oversexualized". As I've recently seen with the still very one-sided (showing only POV of Americans and especially sex-negative feminists, with nothing about how a Japanese character was received in Japan, I put some rather cosmetic edits to alleviate it while inserting a photo) article [[Quiet (Metal Gear)]] - there are and never been no global nor timeless standards for "oversexualization", and for example in some Islamic countries just merely showing hair is outright illegal and so the government in for example Iran is not only banning games but also doing things like specifically banning most of female characters from local LoL tournaments. I've already mentioned Nakoruru in this very thread, so now I'll point out to how I didn't neglect the Japanese perspective while writing [[Nakoruru#Reception and cultural impact]]. [[User:SNAAAAKE!!|SNAAAAKE!!]] ([[User talk:SNAAAAKE!!|talk]]) 20:03, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 ::As an aside, I don't know that you know what exactly a sex-negative feminist is. More a SWERF as opposed to someone who criticizes a design for being oversexualized. Also Quiet is silly. - [[User:New Age Retro Hippie|New Age Retro Hippie]] <small>[[User talk:New Age Retro Hippie|(talk)]]</small> <small>[[Special:Contributions/New Age Retro Hippie|(contributions)]]</small> 21:35, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
+:::A sex-negative feminist is an opposite of a [[sex-positive feminist]] (a well-known example of a very sex-negative one: A. Sarkeesian who hates displays of female sexuality in media and has also [https://feministfrequency.com/2011/05/16/link-round-up-feminist-critiques-of-slutwalk/ vocally opposed slut walks], [https://reason.com/2014/12/07/pixelated-prostitutes-feminist-debate-ov/ habitually calls sex workers "prostituted women"], and so forth as for female sexuality in the real world). Quiet is [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxKvUOIn01M"silly" powerful and literally awesome] (that is: inspiring awe), but that's just my POV. [[User:SNAAAAKE!!|SNAAAAKE!!]] ([[User talk:SNAAAAKE!!|talk]]) 11:05, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 ::I 1000% agree with Snake that our reception sections are overwhelmingly America-centric. I guess much of this can't be helped since most of us can't speak Japanese (or any other language), but I definitely would ''love'' more Japanese (or non-English, really) commentary in our reception sections, [[WP:GLOBALIZE]] and what not. I'm sure everyone else here would say the same. '''''[[User:Satellizer|<font color="#00B7EB">Satellizer el Bridget</font>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Satellizer|<font color="magenta"><sup>(Talk)</sup></font>]]''''' 10:42, 30 April 2019 (UTC)